CTRL - H help.

[Hollywood]

I am an avid user of CTRL - H , from DCL and from TPU.

I have recently started using a MAC, just as a pass though to a my windows environment where my terminal emulator runs to connect to the Alpha/Integrity machines. When I do Ctrl-T on the MAC this deletes the contents of the line vs going to the beginning of the line.

is anyone away of a work around for this ?

Hopefully not a contender for the dumb question of the week award ?

thanks

Nigel

[Stephen Hoffman]

On 2015-11-19 14:54:40 +0000, Hollywood said:

> I am an avid user of CTRL - H , from DCL and from TPU.

The ^H chord that is used to get to the beginning of the line on some
operating systems, and used for deleting characters to the left of the
cursor on others? Or some application with that name?

> I have recently started using a MAC, just as a pass though to a my
> windows environment where my terminal emulator runs to connect to the
> Alpha/Integrity machines. When I do Ctrl-T on the MAC this deletes the
> contents of the line vs going to the beginning of the line.

FWIW...

"MAC" is usually interpreted as Media Access Control address; as an
Ethernet identifier usually commonly used as an Ethernet network
station address.

"Mac" — as the name of some computer hardware from Apple — is not an acronym.

Mac systems can run various operating systems and various versions, and
with most recent Apple Mac models running some version of the operating
system known as OS X; as "Oh-Ess-Ten".

> is anyone away of a work around for this ?
>
> Hopefully not a contender for the dumb question of the week award ?

As for controlling the interpretation of the ^H chord with OpenVMS on
V8.2 and later, see the SET TERMINAL /BACKSPACE command. You probably
want /BACKSPACE=DELETE, here. If you're not running V8.2 or later,
there are some other options, and there can be ways to remap keys in OS
X (that gets messy, for this case) and in X. Using either DEL or ^DEL
is a common choice, depending on the settings in use.

The Terminal.app command line available within OS X provides a decent
terminal emulator, so you can ssh or telnet to OpenVMS from there,
directly or via VPN. No need to pass through Windows boxes, for most
applications and configurations. I commonly use Terminal.app with
OpenVMS and — for the most part — it works just fine.

The other option is to install XQuartz.app on OS X, and ssh -Y from
that xterm into OpenVMS, and use DECterm into an X server running on OS
X. If your network connection is fast enough for that. There are
various discussions of key mapping and different terminal emulators
here in the comp.os.vms newsgroup archives, and the Google Groups
search will find some of those. Some search targets for you: iTerm,
iTerm2, Zterm, etc. There are also xmodmaps and related details posted.

Your employer will almost certainly have folks in IT that can help with
these cases and these questions, too. Both with the local security and
configuration and software requirements for your particular
organization's networks and computers, and also with some tools they
might recommend.

Some related discussions:
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/92
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/134
http://labs.hoffmanlabs.com/node/922
http://www.xquartz.org


--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC

[Steven Schweda]

> Hopefully not a contender for the dumb question of the week
> award ?

You're in the running for fewest useful details.

> I have recently started using a MAC, just as a pass though
> to a my windows environment where my terminal emulator runs
> to connect to the Alpha/Integrity machines.

Mac OS X version?

What, exactly, does "as a pass though to a my windows
environment" mean? Microsoft Remote Desktop? (Version?)

What, exactly, is "my terminal emulator"?

How, exactly, does what, exactly, "connect to the
Alpha/Integrity machines"?

> When I do Ctrl-T [...]

Ctrl/T or Ctrl/H?


> [...] so you can ssh or telnet to OpenVMS from there [...]

Which is what I do (and Ctrl/H works just fine). Any
reason not to do that?

[Bob Koehler]

In article <88e7cb39-e254-40b1...@googlegroups.com>, Hollywood <njb...@gmail.com> writes:
> I am an avid user of CTRL - H , from DCL and from TPU.
>

> I have recently started using a MAC, just as a pass though to a my windows =
> environment where my terminal emulator runs to connect to the Alpha/Integri=
> ty machines. When I do Ctrl-T on the MAC this deletes the contents of the =

> line vs going to the beginning of the line.
>
> is anyone away of a work around for this ?
>
> Hopefully not a contender for the dumb question of the week award ?

Which terminal emulator are you using? I have never seen this from a
Mac, but I'm using iTerm, which is supposed to be better than the
default Mac OS "Terminal" app.

You imply that windows is somehow between the Mac and the VMS
systems. Are you running the terminal emulator on Windows? Is
Windows on a separate machine, or a virtual machine on the Mac?

Why not go directly from the Mac to the VMS system?

[abrsvc]

The default for ^H with Reflections is for backspace and is controlled by the terminal setup within the Reflections session. Not knowing what you are using for the terminal emulator, it is hard to know the problem for sure. Check the terminal settings for the emulator session and be sure that the terminal setup at the OpenVMS side agrees.

Dan

[JF Mezei]

On 2015-11-19 09:54, Hollywood wrote:
> I am an avid user of CTRL - H , from DCL and from TPU.

I use xterm on my mAc to access not only OS-X line command but also VMS.


in my ~ I have a .Xresources file with:

XTerm*deleteIsDEL: True
XTerm.decTerminalId: 220
XTerm.vt100.eightBitInput: true
XTerm.vt100.eightBitOutput: true
XTterm.vt100.eightBitControl: true
XTerm*vt00.scrollBar: true
XTerm*rightScrollBar: true
XTerm*saveLines: 500
XTerm.title: JF's XTERM
XTerm*font: 9x15
XTerm*allowWindowOps: true


I also use nedit as text editor and:

nedit.remapDeleteKey: True


There are times where I have to still manually set the delete key in
xterm in which case, <CTRL> Left click pops the xterm menu and make
sure "Del is DEL" is checked.

[Snowshoe]

On 11/19/2015 2:49 PM, JF Mezei wrote:
> On 2015-11-19 09:54, Hollywood wrote:
>> I am an avid user of CTRL - H , from DCL and from TPU.
>
>
> I use xterm on my mAc to access not only OS-X line command but also VMS.
>
>
> in my ~ I have a .Xresources file with:

...

But do the keyboard keypad keys work (with EDT, TPU/EVE, Notes etc.) ?
Including PF1/Num Lock?

[Steven Schweda]

> Including PF1/Num Lock?

Do you mean the "clear" key? The Apple keyboard (A1048)
on my Mac has a "caps lock" key, but no "Num Lock" key. It
also has four (non-function) keys in the right-most column,
unlike a typical DOS/Windows keyboard, making it more
convenient for programs which expect a VMS-type keypad.
The key-cap labels are different (PF1-PF4 -> "clear", "=",
"/", "*"; and "," -> "+"), but I can cope. Around here:

pro3$ cat .xmodmaprc
keycode 79 = KP_F1
keycode 89 = KP_F2
keycode 83 = KP_F3
keycode 75 = KP_F4
keycode 77 = KP_Separator
keycode 127 = Prior

It seems to work well enough when I connect it to a
Windows system, too.

[Steven Schweda]

One other possibly interesting datum:

pipe show terminal | search sys$input ctrl

> [...] this deletes the contents of the line [...]

Normally, Ctrl/U deletes from the cursor to start-of-line.
How much of your line gets deleted by Ctrl/T or Ctrl/H or
whatever?

[Steven Schweda]

I still have approximately no idea what the original
problem environment comprises, but I can use Microsoft Remote
Desktop ("Version 8.0.24 (Build 26825)") on a MacBook
(13-inch, Aluminum, Late 2008) running OS X Yosemite
("Version 10.10.5 (14F1021)") to control a system running
Windows 10 ("Version 1511", "OS Build 10586.11"), where a
PuTTY ("Release 0.62") SSH session to a VMS Alpha system
(V8.4, TCPIP V5.7 ECO 5) works as expected.

I'll keep using a plain-old Xterm on my Macs to deal
directly with my VMS systems, without dragging a Windows
system into the mix, but at least one bloated pile of stuff
seems to work in something like the arrangement hinted at in
the original problem description (Mac -> Windows + terminal
emulator -> VMS).

[Snowshoe]

On 11/19/2015 5:59 PM, Steven Schweda wrote:
>> Including PF1/Num Lock?
>
> Do you mean the "clear" key? The Apple keyboard (A1048)
> on my Mac has a "caps lock" key, but no "Num Lock" key.

Yeah, I meant the "clear" key, same position as PF1 on a DEC keyboard or
"Num Lock" on a PC. It has been frustrating for me to try to use a Mac
Mini with VMS using TPU, EDT and so forth. I've tried both xterm and
iterm2. Nothing works as well as PuTTY on Windows (which isn't
available). Either the keyboard/keypad misses some functions or the
emulator can't get the VTxxx emulation right. iterm2 likes to get into
a state with the cursor in a one line scroll region, real frustrating to
try to get out of.

[Bob Koehler]

In article <n2nj4a$lhh$1...@speranza.aioe.org>, Snowshoe <n...@spam.please> writes:
> On 11/19/2015 5:59 PM, Steven Schweda wrote:
>>> Including PF1/Num Lock?
>>
>> Do you mean the "clear" key? The Apple keyboard (A1048)
>> on my Mac has a "caps lock" key, but no "Num Lock" key.

Hm. My old MacPro keyboard says "num lock" in small letters on the
corner of the "clear" key.

[Paul Anderson]

On 11/20/15 11:52 AM, Snowshoe wrote:

> Yeah, I meant the "clear" key, same position as PF1 on a DEC keyboard or
> "Num Lock" on a PC. It has been frustrating for me to try to use a Mac
> Mini with VMS using TPU, EDT and so forth. I've tried both xterm and
> iterm2.

Have you tried making the Numlock key (marked "Clear" on my Matius
keyboard) return ^[OP in the iTerm Profiles|Keys screen? I use iTerm
with TPU all the time and it works well.

Paul

[JF Mezei]

The one problem I had on a Mac keyboard is mapping of the "Find" key
whose location on the Mac keybard points to "Fn" key which generates no
X keycode at all.

I think I mapped it to F13 with F14 as "DO". or just press CRTC-F in TPU.

[Steven Schweda]

> Hm. My old MacPro keyboard says "num lock" in small
> letters on the corner of the "clear" key.

I have an Apple Extended Keyboard II (Family Number:
M3501) with "num lock" in fine print on the "clear" key, too,
but ADB devices don't see much use these days, even around
here.


> [...] Either the keyboard/keypad misses some functions or
> the emulator can't get the VTxxx emulation right. [...]

From that vague description, I can't tell what troubles
you, but your requirements may be stricter than mine. As
that .xmodmaprc file might suggest, I've mapped "end" (left
of "page down") to "Prior" (same as "page up", above "page
down"), so that my LK-"Prev"+"Next"-trained brain doesn't
need to be retrained to use "page up". I mostly use the EDT
keypad with TPU ("set keypad edt" in EVE_INIT.EVE, last
changed: 29-AUG-2002), so I seldom have any use for "Help",
"Do", "Find", "Insert Here", "Remove", or "Select". Sticking
with proven (that is, obsolete) EDT/VT100 technology has some
advantages over exploiting (and relying on) all this
new-fangled TPU/VT220 technology.

[Craig A. Berry]

I do too, and documented my set-up at:

<https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=comp.os.vms/i-CVytjOJ2A/ArtEqIpwfnMJ>

[Craig A. Berry]

On 11/20/15 10:52 AM, Snowshoe wrote:
> Nothing works as well as PuTTY on Windows (which isn't
> available).

It certainly is available, though you may have to build it from source
on OS X. That said, I've never used it as a terminal emulator on OS X,
but PuTTY's pscp is the only free scp client I've seen that actually
works with the VMS scp service, and it works from Windows, Mac, and Linux.

[Bob Koehler]

In article <362f0335-d4d4-4210...@googlegroups.com>, Steven Schweda <sms.an...@gmail.com> writes:
>> Hm. My old MacPro keyboard says "num lock" in small
>> letters on the corner of the "clear" key.
>
> I have an Apple Extended Keyboard II (Family Number:
> M3501) with "num lock" in fine print on the "clear" key, too,
> but ADB devices don't see much use these days, even around
> here.
>

Yeah, I use my older Apple USB keyboards with my new Macs because
I can't stand that little bluetooth keyless board they ship with.

[Johnny Billquist]

I have no problems getting xterm to behave exactly as a proper VT
terminal on OS X (or any random Unix system), with the one caveat that I
use F1-F4 for the PF1-PF4 keys, so the location of the keys are not the
same. But functionality wise, it works correct.

iterm2 on the other hand have bugs. (I also know of one or two annoying
bugs in putty, but that is another story.)

Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

[Snowshoe]

OK, this has promise.

I used JF's .Xresources file and Steven Schweda's .xmodmap file and ssh
from a xterm/xquartz to a VMS system looks good so far. I don't know
Unixy things so well so I didn't think to try messing with these,
besides I really don't know how.

I have the aluminum corded keyboard with the keypad. I don't remember
what its model number is. The keypad on the right works like an LKxxx
keyboard with the keys in the same positions, with clear = / * working
like PF1-PF4, the - + enter on the far right work as I remember them as
do the four arrow keys. Some of the six keys above the arrows work,
others don't. The "delete" key on the main KB sends ^H. $ SET
TERM/WIDTH=132 doesn't change the size of the actual window. I need to
fix the fonts and default colors. Time to RTFM I guess.

All of these except the last two are probably just learning what should
go into .xmodmap.

[Johnny Billquist]

Delete sending ^H is a setting, but it might be non-obvious what
controls it, if I remember right.

Getting the terminal to accept 80/132 column changes is also a property,
which by default is disabled.

Fonts and default colors is stuff I never mess around with, so I can't
comment much on those. Fonts can be touchy, as you want to have the DEC
technical font still around as well...

[JF Mezei]

This is the .xmodmap I have.

velo:~ $ cat .xmodmap
keycode 79 = KP_F1
keycode 89 = KP_F1

keycode 83 = KP_F3
keycode 75 = KP_F4

keycode 113 = Help
keycode 115 = Menu
keycode 125 = DRemove
keycode 113 = Insert
keycode 127 = Select
keycode 123 = Find
keycode 59 = Delete
keycode 111 = F11 F11 F11 F11
keycode 114 = F16 F16 F16 F16
keycode 72 = F17 F17 F17 F17
keycode 87 = F18 F18 F18 F18
keycode 88 = F19 F19 F19 F19


The "xev" utility will display a bunch of information with each key
stroke. The "keycode" is the one I used.

[Steven Schweda]

> OK, this has promise.

What could go wrong?

> [...] The "delete" key on the main KB sends ^H. [...]

Ctrl/Mouse-1, look for "Backarrow Key (BS/DEL")" -- Mine
is unchecked. Or, in .Xdefaults:
XTerm*backarrowKey: false
I also have:
XTerm*saveLines: 1600
XTerm*scrollBar: true
XTerm*visualBell: true
XTerm*font: -misc-fixed-medium-r-normal--0-0-75-75-c-0-*-*

But the "Large" font name (Ctrl/M3) seems to depend on some
software version or other (XQuartz, Mac OS X, ...?).


> The "xev" utility [...]

... is your friend.

[JF Mezei]

On 2015-11-23 18:22, Steven Schweda wrote:

> But the "Large" font name (Ctrl/M3) seems to depend on some
> software version or other (XQuartz, Mac OS X, ...?).

What would be the Xterm resource to get "TrueType" fonts enabled ? They
are far clearer on the display then the default almost "dot matrix" fonts.

[Bob Koehler]

In article <n303pf$sl1$1...@Iltempo.Update.UU.SE>, Johnny Billquist <b...@softjar.se> writes:
>
> Delete sending ^H is a setting, but it might be non-obvious what
> controls it, if I remember right.
>

While it almost certinaly is a terminal emulator setting, it's been
a long time now VMS accepts "set terminal/backspace=delete". Of
course, you loose the normal VMS behaviour of backspace that way.

[Johnny Billquist]

Who'd want that? :-)
Besides, RSX do not have that "feature", so I still need to get xterm to
behave right.

Johnny

[Snowshoe]

On 11/23/2015 5:51 PM, JF Mezei wrote:
> This is the .xmodmap I have.
>
> velo:~ $ cat .xmodmap
> keycode 79 = KP_F1
> keycode 89 = KP_F1
> keycode 83 = KP_F3
> keycode 75 = KP_F4
> keycode 113 = Help
> keycode 115 = Menu
> keycode 125 = DRemove
> keycode 113 = Insert
> keycode 127 = Select
> keycode 123 = Find
> keycode 59 = Delete
> keycode 111 = F11 F11 F11 F11
> keycode 114 = F16 F16 F16 F16
> keycode 72 = F17 F17 F17 F17
> keycode 87 = F18 F18 F18 F18
> keycode 88 = F19 F19 F19 F19
>

Thanks, that mostly does what I want. Who decided the order of
keycodes, anyway? Doesn't seem to follow a pattern. Is it the scancode
of some early keyboard or something?

> The "xev" utility will display a bunch of information with each key
> stroke. The "keycode" is the one I used.

yeah I played with xev. I wasn't sure which of several codes it printed
that I should use.

[Snowshoe]

yeah, the default font is horrid. "dot matrix" is pretty accurate.

I'm still searching through Google to do things from a resources file,
such as enabling 80/132 switching, fonts, colors, how to change the
title via software (the sequence in my login.com that works with PuTTY
doesn't work on xterm), scroll bar (you have it enabled in the
.Xresources file you posted but it doesn't work here)

I think I see the same thing you mention with the font size selected by
ctrl/M3, "large" and "huge" seem to be swapped. "Unreadable" is cute...

Thanks for the help.

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-11-24 21:00, Snowshoe wrote:
> On 11/23/2015 6:45 PM, JF Mezei wrote:
>> On 2015-11-23 18:22, Steven Schweda wrote:
>>
>>> But the "Large" font name (Ctrl/M3) seems to depend on some
>>> software version or other (XQuartz, Mac OS X, ...?).
>>
>> What would be the Xterm resource to get "TrueType" fonts enabled ? They
>> are far clearer on the display then the default almost "dot matrix"
>> fonts.
>
> yeah, the default font is horrid. "dot matrix" is pretty accurate.

Funny how people see things different. I prefer that font. :-)

> I'm still searching through Google to do things from a resources file,
> such as enabling 80/132 switching, fonts, colors, how to change the
> title via software (the sequence in my login.com that works with PuTTY
> doesn't work on xterm), scroll bar (you have it enabled in the
> .Xresources file you posted but it doesn't work here)

132 column switching - *.vt100.c132: true
fonts - *.font, or -fn on the command line.
colors - not sure what you are doing. xterm always supports color where
I tried.
changing title - I seem to remember it worked the as in putty last I
tried (I hate that "feature").

Are you sure you are doing the resources correctly. It is a rather less
understood part of X11 for many people, and there are many ways to match
or not match resources to windows.
You could just throw in command line flags when you start xterm instead.
That way you get more explicit control over things.

See the man-page for xterm would be my recommendation. It's a long page,
but after you've read it a couple of times, you'll find that it gives
you pretty much all the information you might be looking for.