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Using EDT to develop code? Got DECset licenses? Try LSEDIT
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Stephen Hoffman
Jul 26, 2016, 10:06:32 AM7/26/16
to
PSA
EDT user?
Doing source code development on OpenVMS, using one of the core
programming languages?
Try the DECset LSEDIT character cell text editor. LSEDIT has the EDT
keypad, for those using extended keyboards. The command line is
different from EDT command mode, less arcane and more DCL-like, and
with the command COMPILE /REVIEW. This COMPILE /REVIEW editor command
—combined with ^F and ^G to navigate the compiler-detected source code
issues — makes for a gentle introduction to an old and simple IDE.
Footnotes for the pedantic: Yes, I'm ignoring the X display available
within LSEDIT, and yes you can also have to use NEXT WINDOW or PREVIOUS
WINDOW or ONE WINDOW or OTHER WINDOW commands to control the LSEDIT
display when you have more than one window visible on your character
cell display. Yes, sometimes having two windows into the same file is
handy, too. Yes, there are other IDEs on other platforms that make
application development either easier or more scalable and/or faster,
and yes I'd much prefer something far closer to Xcode available on
OpenVMS, and yes I'm also commonly using vim and not LSEDIT, and yes I
and other folks wouldn't mind if HPE or VSI at least opened up the
specs on the internal OpenVMS interfaces involved here including the
ANA analysis files and/or provided binaries with the libraries for
accessing those and related data. But if you're on OpenVMS and using
only HPE/VSI tools, then LSEDIT or that old NetBeans port are your
available choices for development tools; for IDEs.
Full disclosure: I've used Eclipse, NetBeans and some other tools, and
much prefer the integration of Xcode. Xcode is not without its
problems. I haven't used the Microsoft Visual tools in over a decade
and haven't particularly used the JetBrains IDE tools, so won't comment
on those. Since I seemingly always have to explicitly state this, I do
not see anything similar to Xcode becoming available on OpenVMS any
time soon, and there are parts of Xcode I'd not look to replicate, and
— why do I even have to write this part? — I don't see apps running
macOS replacing OpenVMS for applications running on OpenVMS servers —
but — if you're not aware of what's available as an end-user or as a
vendor — then you're missing out on what can be done, and both good and
bad ideas you can learn from.
TL;DR: Try LSEDIT. Get out of your comfort zone and try some new
development tools or new languages or whatever, even if they're only
new to you.
--
Pure Personal Opinion | HoffmanLabs LLC
John Reagan
Jul 26, 2016, 10:18:13 AM7/26/16
to
Jan-Erik Soderholm
Jul 26, 2016, 11:10:41 AM7/26/16
to
EDT and LSE, not?
hb
Jul 26, 2016, 11:13:41 AM7/26/16
to
On 07/26/2016 04:06 PM, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
> Full disclosure: I've used Eclipse, NetBeans and some other tools, ...
Full disclosure: I use Eclipse for VMS-C (and -Java) projects. Setting
up Eclipse CDT with gcc but restricted to VAXC and/or DECC include files
takes some time, but then you can use this environment to compile your
sources and take full advantage of that part of the IDE. Yes, I have to
copy the sources to VMS and generate the application. I experienced only
a handful of compiler incompatibilities, so far (which includes the
maintaining of one - in my point of view big - VMS project with about
600 existing C source and include files). I use an Eclipse editor plugin
for DCL command procedures (yes, a double click on a .com file no longer
triggers Eclipse to execute that file), Linker options and MMS/MMK
decription files, the usual stuff: syntax highlighting and keyword
expansion/help. Serves me.
> Full disclosure: I've used Eclipse, NetBeans and some other tools, ...
Full disclosure: I use Eclipse for VMS-C (and -Java) projects. Setting
up Eclipse CDT with gcc but restricted to VAXC and/or DECC include files
takes some time, but then you can use this environment to compile your
sources and take full advantage of that part of the IDE. Yes, I have to
copy the sources to VMS and generate the application. I experienced only
a handful of compiler incompatibilities, so far (which includes the
maintaining of one - in my point of view big - VMS project with about
600 existing C source and include files). I use an Eclipse editor plugin
for DCL command procedures (yes, a double click on a .com file no longer
triggers Eclipse to execute that file), Linker options and MMS/MMK
decription files, the usual stuff: syntax highlighting and keyword
expansion/help. Serves me.
osuv...@gmail.com
Jul 26, 2016, 11:17:17 AM7/26/16
to
Xcode is cool, but to a casual user its richness can be frustrating. You get your little project built and running inside the xcode environment, now where the hell is the executable so you can run it outside of the IDE? It's six levels down in a release directory.
Can LSEDIT do, or be made to do, Python?
Can LSEDIT do, or be made to do, Python?
Stephen Hoffman
Jul 26, 2016, 11:50:43 AM7/26/16
to
On 2016-07-26 15:10:40 +0000, Jan-Erik Soderholm said:
> If I'm not wrong, there is a quite huge price difference between EDT
> and LSE, not?
Much like between Oracle Rdb and SQLite.
> If I'm not wrong, there is a quite huge price difference between EDT
> and LSE, not?
David Froble
Jul 26, 2016, 12:10:18 PM7/26/16
to
John Reagan wrote:
It is very customizable.
>
This is something I have a problem understanding. Why would anyone want to
customize something, such that as soon as they are on another system they do not
have the customizations they are used to using, and sometimes can't get anything
done.
Now, if you ONLY work in your own environment, and do enough work that such
customization is advisable and helpful, maybe then. One size doesn't fit all.
Yes, I've already got enough customizations that I can have problems on a plain
vanilla VMS system. This is one reason I'm leery of massive customization.
It is very customizable.
>
This is something I have a problem understanding. Why would anyone want to
customize something, such that as soon as they are on another system they do not
have the customizations they are used to using, and sometimes can't get anything
done.
Now, if you ONLY work in your own environment, and do enough work that such
customization is advisable and helpful, maybe then. One size doesn't fit all.
Yes, I've already got enough customizations that I can have problems on a plain
vanilla VMS system. This is one reason I'm leery of massive customization.
Stephen Hoffman
Jul 26, 2016, 12:12:19 PM7/26/16
to
On 2016-07-26 15:17:16 +0000, osuv...@gmail.com said:
> Xcode is cool, but to a casual user its richness can be frustrating.
Yes, it is. As I've stated, Xcode has its problems. Its prescient
> Xcode is cool, but to a casual user its richness can be frustrating.
code completion and continuous compilation and access to docs and
examples not among those, though. OpenVMS itself is quite frustrating
to the inexperienced and even the experienced, and so are most
databases, text editors such as vim or emacs, and many other tools that
application developers can be faced with. We picked a field that
requires us to keep learning, or to be left behind.
Swift and Playgrounds is easier for folks learning or that are
otherwise not doing a whole lot of development work, or that are
looking for tools simpler than Xcode.
> You get your little project built and running inside the xcode
> environment, now where the hell is the executable so you can run it
> outside of the IDE? It's six levels down in a release directory.
click or alternate click on the build product you're interested in, and
select Show In Finder from the pop-up. Or select the arrow next to
the full path, if you have the identity and type inspector pane open
off to the right. (I and more than a few others logged bugs against
this a while back when those build product directories first arrived,
and direct access to the directories became available.) Or you can
configure your build directories, not that I've had a project with
particular use for that recently. It's also possible to integrate
Xcode with make or similar tools.
Learning most of Xcode can take a decade. Or all of vim or emacs, or
an appreciable part of the old and the new OpenVMS APIs, for that
matter. For simpler development, there's Swift and playgrounds, or
other development environments.
Stephen Hoffman
Jul 26, 2016, 12:14:19 PM7/26/16
to
> Can LSEDIT do, or be made to do, Python?
At the same level as EDT. It can edit Python, can probably be
convinced to do some code formatting, but there'll be no linkage with
the source code "compilation" and any related error reporting or
detection; no COMPILE /REVIEW et al.
Jan-Erik Soderholm
Jul 26, 2016, 12:35:02 PM7/26/16
to
Den 2016-07-26 kl. 17:50, skrev Stephen Hoffman:
> On 2016-07-26 15:10:40 +0000, Jan-Erik Soderholm said:
>
>> If I'm not wrong, there is a quite huge price difference between EDT and
>> LSE, not?
>
> Much like between Oracle Rdb and SQLite.
>
>
Right. Or any other <available> vs. <not-available> tool...
> On 2016-07-26 15:10:40 +0000, Jan-Erik Soderholm said:
>
>> If I'm not wrong, there is a quite huge price difference between EDT and
>> LSE, not?
>
> Much like between Oracle Rdb and SQLite.
>
>
Or did I miss the production-ready kit of SQLite for VMS?
Bill Pedersen
Jul 26, 2016, 12:50:05 PM7/26/16
to comp.os.vms to email gateway, Jan-Erik Soderholm
I believe SQLite for is getting closer...
You can check on the VMS-Ports SourceForge Project. Dave Jones has been
uploading updates. He has also been posting a running dialogue.
Bill.
Bill Pedersen
CCSS - Computer Consulting System Services, LLC
211 Ruth Drive
Gaffney, SC 29341
Telephone: +1-864-490-8863
Facsimile: +1-206-984-3068
www: www.ccsscorp.com
Skype Number: +1-864-649-0904
Skype Name: william.a.pedersen
LinkedIn Profile: www.linkedin.com/in/billpedersen
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You can check on the VMS-Ports SourceForge Project. Dave Jones has been
uploading updates. He has also been posting a running dialogue.
Bill.
Bill Pedersen
CCSS - Computer Consulting System Services, LLC
211 Ruth Drive
Gaffney, SC 29341
Telephone: +1-864-490-8863
Facsimile: +1-206-984-3068
www: www.ccsscorp.com
Skype Number: +1-864-649-0904
Skype Name: william.a.pedersen
LinkedIn Profile: www.linkedin.com/in/billpedersen
Info-vax mailing list
Info...@rbnsn.com
http://rbnsn.com/mailman/listinfo/info-vax_rbnsn.com
John Reagan
Jul 26, 2016, 12:53:13 PM7/26/16
to
You can certainly write TPU scripts and invoke them from LSE. I believe SCA uses TPU scripts to generate all of its reports for instance.
John Reagan
Jul 26, 2016, 12:55:09 PM7/26/16
to
On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 11:17:17 AM UTC-4, osuv...@gmail.com wrote:
> Xcode is cool, but to a casual user its richness can be frustrating. You get your little project built and running inside the xcode environment, now where the hell is the executable so you can run it outside of the IDE? It's six levels down in a release directory.
>
> Can LSEDIT do, or be made to do, Python?
You could certainly write some Python templates to help you write the code.
> Xcode is cool, but to a casual user its richness can be frustrating. You get your little project built and running inside the xcode environment, now where the hell is the executable so you can run it outside of the IDE? It's six levels down in a release directory.
>
> Can LSEDIT do, or be made to do, Python?
As for COMPILE/REVIEW cycles, there is the .DIA file that compilers use to send diagnostic info back to LSE. That format isn't documented. However, LSE does have a "public" text version of a .DIA file that is somewhere in the LSE docset for 3rd party compilers (or any tool actually) to provide diagnostic information back to LSE.
Craig A. Berry
Jul 26, 2016, 1:01:09 PM7/26/16
to
On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 11:12:19 AM UTC-5, Stephen Hoffman wrote:
> Swift and Playgrounds is easier for folks learning or that are
> otherwise not doing a whole lot of development work, or that are
> looking for tools simpler than Xcode.
Visual Studio Code is worth a look: <https://code.visualstudio.com/>. Unlike Visual Studio, it is free, fast, and cross-platform. It has IntelliSense, git integration, lots of editing features, a well-defined mechanism for extensions, and a protocol for attaching to debuggers:
> Swift and Playgrounds is easier for folks learning or that are
> otherwise not doing a whole lot of development work, or that are
> looking for tools simpler than Xcode.
<https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/extensions/example-debuggers>
If anyone were to replace the (defunct?) remote Windows debugger for VMS, this might be a good basis for it.
Jan-Erik Soderholm
Jul 26, 2016, 1:15:51 PM7/26/16
to
Standard Python does not have any compiler (in the usual sense).
And besides, Python is large and with many optional modules, so
it would be a huge effort to cover it (all).
Bob Koehler
Jul 26, 2016, 5:10:56 PM7/26/16
to
In article <nn7qp5$gm0$1...@dont-email.me>, Stephen Hoffman <seao...@hoffmanlabs.invalid> writes:
>
> PSA
>
> EDT user?
>
> Doing source code development on OpenVMS, using one of the core
> programming languages?
>
> Try the DECset LSEDIT character cell text editor. LSEDIT has the EDT
> keypad, for those using extended keyboards. The command line is
> different from EDT command mode, less arcane and more DCL-like, and
> with the command COMPILE /REVIEW. This COMPILE /REVIEW editor command
> —combined with ^F and ^G to navigate the compiler-detected source code
> issues — makes for a gentle introduction to an old and simple IDE.
I fond LSEDIT really elpfull when learning new languages. Once
>
> PSA
>
> EDT user?
>
> Doing source code development on OpenVMS, using one of the core
> programming languages?
>
> Try the DECset LSEDIT character cell text editor. LSEDIT has the EDT
> keypad, for those using extended keyboards. The command line is
> different from EDT command mode, less arcane and more DCL-like, and
> with the command COMPILE /REVIEW. This COMPILE /REVIEW editor command
> —combined with ^F and ^G to navigate the compiler-detected source code
> issues — makes for a gentle introduction to an old and simple IDE.
learned, though I found it was better to use my EVE section, running
as a kept editor, with the necessary spawn and attach commmands built
into both my EVE and my DCL keypads.
David Froble
Jul 26, 2016, 10:32:48 PM7/26/16
to
John Reagan wrote:
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 12:10:18 PM UTC-4, David Froble wrote:
>> John Reagan wrote:
>>
>> It is very customizable.
>> This is something I have a problem understanding. Why would anyone want to
>> customize something, such that as soon as they are on another system they do not
>> have the customizations they are used to using, and sometimes can't get anything
>> done.
>>
>> Now, if you ONLY work in your own environment, and do enough work that such
>> customization is advisable and helpful, maybe then. One size doesn't fit all.
>>
>> Yes, I've already got enough customizations that I can have problems on a plain
>> vanilla VMS system. This is one reason I'm leery of massive customization.
>
> Do you have a LOGIN.COM file?
Yes, and that's the reason for the paragraph directly above your question.
> On Tuesday, July 26, 2016 at 12:10:18 PM UTC-4, David Froble wrote:
>> John Reagan wrote:
>>
>> It is very customizable.
>> This is something I have a problem understanding. Why would anyone want to
>> customize something, such that as soon as they are on another system they do not
>> have the customizations they are used to using, and sometimes can't get anything
>> done.
>>
>> Now, if you ONLY work in your own environment, and do enough work that such
>> customization is advisable and helpful, maybe then. One size doesn't fit all.
>>
>> Yes, I've already got enough customizations that I can have problems on a plain
>> vanilla VMS system. This is one reason I'm leery of massive customization.
>
> Do you have a LOGIN.COM file?
Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)
Jul 27, 2016, 4:44:03 PM7/27/16
to
> EDT user?
>
> Doing source code development on OpenVMS, using one of the core
> programming languages?
>
> Try the DECset LSEDIT character cell text editor.
On my list.
>
> Doing source code development on OpenVMS, using one of the core
> programming languages?
>
> Try the DECset LSEDIT character cell text editor.
Paul Sture
Jul 28, 2016, 7:09:25 AM7/28/16
to
<http://ipython.org/>
--
A software-enabled, network connected, crowd funded, smart toaster is,
when all is said and done, still just a toaster. -- Elad Gil
IanD
Jul 29, 2016, 4:42:46 AM7/29/16
to
Even notepad++ could be used, but you'd have to write some language definitions for VMS stuff (I thought I read somewhere a DCL definition exists, but try and I might, I didn't find it ou there in the webby world)
It's not a framework as such but it can be configured to grab code from an external system
It has a large number of native languages included in it's syntax checking
My gripe is that while free, it is not open source and is tied to windows heavily
I guess it depends how far along the framework and integration path VSI wish to go
Is it worth spending more time and money on things like LSE etc or should they be sunsetted (is that even a proper word?) and time and efforts pushed towards other tools out there that might allow non-VMS folk the ability to transpose their skills across to the VMS platform?
As for having to configure things all the time when one moves shop, that's what cloud configuration sets you free from, excluding if your in an environment that's locked down for security purposes
Even notepad++ has a portableapps version which I used to use. You can have it on a USB or put it in a cloud share if you want and run it from there so there's no need to extensively configure it all the time when you move house
I have a friend who is an MS developer, he is not tied to his current platform and basically produces his wares irrespective of machine he happens to be using. His productivity is only really impacted by the size and number of monitors he has available to him at the time :-)
Is this the sort of direction VSI want to move towards for VMS? Cloud based development? Will it impact the sales of things like decset etc? or will a migration of some of these tools to open source replacements benefit in other ways? (like attracting new talent to VMS because they can use the tolls they understand or reduce VSI resources to maintain these items so that the resources can be utilized on adding new features to VMS verses existing tool enhancement?)
Lots of if's and but's I guess but surely the take-away is that VMS development needs to modernize
It's not a framework as such but it can be configured to grab code from an external system
It has a large number of native languages included in it's syntax checking
My gripe is that while free, it is not open source and is tied to windows heavily
I guess it depends how far along the framework and integration path VSI wish to go
Is it worth spending more time and money on things like LSE etc or should they be sunsetted (is that even a proper word?) and time and efforts pushed towards other tools out there that might allow non-VMS folk the ability to transpose their skills across to the VMS platform?
As for having to configure things all the time when one moves shop, that's what cloud configuration sets you free from, excluding if your in an environment that's locked down for security purposes
Even notepad++ has a portableapps version which I used to use. You can have it on a USB or put it in a cloud share if you want and run it from there so there's no need to extensively configure it all the time when you move house
I have a friend who is an MS developer, he is not tied to his current platform and basically produces his wares irrespective of machine he happens to be using. His productivity is only really impacted by the size and number of monitors he has available to him at the time :-)
Is this the sort of direction VSI want to move towards for VMS? Cloud based development? Will it impact the sales of things like decset etc? or will a migration of some of these tools to open source replacements benefit in other ways? (like attracting new talent to VMS because they can use the tolls they understand or reduce VSI resources to maintain these items so that the resources can be utilized on adding new features to VMS verses existing tool enhancement?)
Lots of if's and but's I guess but surely the take-away is that VMS development needs to modernize
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