Helping Windows first time users

[Barry Scott]

I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
to better sign post users on the next steps.

https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python...@python.org/message/TKHID7PMKN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/

It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
without drafting the text a reply every time.

What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?

Barry

[Souvik Dutta]

I think there should be a text an the end of the installation process that
should say how to run idle. I think this confusion happens because of how
android installs any app.

> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

[DL Neil]

On 16/04/20 3:34 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 19:23:43 +0100, Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org>
> declaimed the following:

>
>> I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
>> to better sign post users on the next steps.
>>
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python...@python.org/message/TKHID7PMKN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/
>>
>> It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
>> reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
>> reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
>> without drafting the text a reply every time.
>>
>> What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?
>

> No other Windows installers that I know of provide information on how
> to use the installed application. Anyone installing software should realize
> that the installer file itself is just that, an installer, and not be used
> in attempts to run the installed application, they should look elsewhere
> for the application itself.
>
> I would also note that there are MANY Python installers for Windows:
> Python.org, ActiveState, Anaconda, Enthought, and even (for Win10) the M$
> "app store" has one. Are you proposing that all these sources need to make
> changes to their distributions?


@Barry's observation is that many first-time Python-on-Windows users
seem to fail at the first click. (I have also voiced similar concerns
'here')


As mentioned, I don't pay the regular 'MSFT-tax'. However, many use
MS-Windows because that's what they've been given, or must use, at their
work. I have read articles which suggest that MS-Windows has improved to
the point of making a good/better dev.platform. Whether *I* agree, or
not, is of no import in this conversation.


If one downloads other Win-installer installed software, what happens?
Is Python's Win-download following the same, expected, pattern?
If not, why not?
Why does the installer not delete itself after (successful)
installation? ie why are users left a situation where (what is actually)
re-installation is the most obvious 'next thing to do'?


What about installing a menu-item (or whatever they call those Win-10
home-screen 'boxes'), and that it either:
- launches Idle as a dev.env, or
- opens a 'DOS box' and fires-up Python from the cmdLN

Either would at-least allow neophytes to get-started. Neither would
affect established users, who dive straight into their IDE-of-choice.

As for other distributions: what they do is their business. Literally!
After all, (in thought) one man's baldachin is another man's canopy...


Meantime, we cut-down on so many of the essentially repetitive 'noise'
questions on this list. Perhaps more importantly, it removes the
temptation to assume that the tenth such enquiry this-week, has come
from the same person as the other nine, and thus to respond bluntly,
impolitely, or in an other than encouraging fashion. (see also the
Python Foundation's several diversity, inclusion, and other principles)
--
Regards =dn

[joseph pareti]

FWIW, here is my experience on Windows 10.

I had some troubles with python on Windows 10. Most of the issues were
presumably due to having multiple python versions on the same PC, and also
relying on 'miniconda3' which was kind of inherited from an older
experiment.

At some point, to recover from a system crash I had to re-install Windows
10, and after that I installed the full suite of Anaconda products. Things
improved a lot. Besides Python and Jupyter notebook, i find Spyder very
useful as an IDE, and everything seems to be running smoothly. On top of
that I also installed PyTorch 1.4: I am currently training a neural network
which takes more than 20 hours. The only annoying thing was the
occasional automatic reboot during keyboard inactivity which I then
disabled at the "Windows Update" menu.

Am Mi., 15. Apr. 2020 um 21:06 Uhr schrieb Barry Scott <
ba...@barrys-emacs.org>:

> I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
> to better sign post users on the next steps.
>
>
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python...@python.org/message/TKHID7PMKN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/
>
> It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
> reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
> reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
> without drafting the text a reply every time.
>
> What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?
>

> Barry
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


--
Regards,
Joseph Pareti - Artificial Intelligence consultant
Joseph Pareti's AI Consulting Services
https://www.joepareti54-ai.com/
cell +49 1520 1600 209
cell +39 339 797 0644

[Mike Dewhirst]

On 16/04/2020 2:46 pm, DL Neil via Python-list wrote:
> On 16/04/20 3:34 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 19:23:43 +0100, Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org>
>> declaimed the following:
>>

>>> I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
>>> to better sign post users on the next steps.
>>>
>>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python...@python.org/message/TKHID7PMKN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/
>>>
>>>
>>> It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
>>> reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
>>> reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
>>> without drafting the text a reply every time.
>>>
>>> What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?
>>

>>     No other Windows installers that I know of provide information on
>> how
>> to use the installed application. Anyone installing software should
>> realize
>> that the installer file itself is just that, an installer, and not be
>> used
>> in attempts to run the installed application, they should look elsewhere
>> for the application itself.
>>
>>     I would also note that there are MANY Python installers for Windows:
>> Python.org, ActiveState, Anaconda, Enthought, and even (for Win10)
>> the M$
>> "app store" has one. Are you proposing that all these sources need to
>> make
>> changes to their distributions?
>
>
> @Barry's observation is that many first-time Python-on-Windows users
> seem to fail at the first click. (I have also voiced similar concerns
> 'here')

I use Python on both Windows and Linux. Therefore I more or less
disqualify myself from being able to comment. I have found ways to
operate successfully and would only really be able to suggest what works
for me. But I do feel moved to offer my thoughts.

The real solution is to more closely define the target audience plus the
Python precise skill attainment desired.

Carefully describe/define the first-time Python user on Windows. Then
prepare the installer to suit that definition.

The description might specify the level of Windows expertise (or lack
of) in exquisite detail. You need age, gender, education level, etc. You
need a real person in your mind's eye to prepare the product for. You
need to be able to imagine the answer to any question you might ask such
an imaginary person. Plus understanding colleagues if they hear you
asking :)

Maybe the objective is to write hello world or a simple game in a dos
prompt. If gui skill attainment is felt to be important for the defined
audience then hello world would probably be enough.

If the defined neophyte user is sufficiently inexperienced then forget
IDEs and focus only on a text editor with syntax highlighting.

We all know how important virtual envs are and multiple Python installs
but newbies don't need or even want to know that. Time enough to realise
you need it when it solves a future roadblock for you. It is impossible
to get started when confronted with too much information.

The bottom line is that Windows is designed to hide things from the
user. Our new user might be very experienced in MS Office but knows
nothing about the operating system. That means the installer needs to
provide a desktop shortcut which delivers a pre-defined user experience
and from which the user can emerge with clear understanding.

I would suggest one click (double-click actually) to open a command
prompt with the interpreter running ready to accept input. Another which
opened a getting-started document which assumes no prior knowledge but
requires a ready Python interpreter. Finally another entitled "Next
steps". From my perspective the installer should create a desktop folder
called "Python shortcuts" to contain all such clickable nirvana.

Think about a bootstrap track on a disk. There is only enough there to
get to the next step.

>
> As mentioned, I don't pay the regular 'MSFT-tax'. However, many use
> MS-Windows because that's what they've been given, or must use, at
> their work. I have read articles which suggest that MS-Windows has
> improved to the point of making a good/better dev.platform. Whether
> *I* agree, or not, is of no import in this conversation.

But it is interesting. I use Windows because I have no choice. All my
production machines are non-gui Ubuntu. I started my programming on
non-gui PCs which made it simple with Windows. However, on reading some
of these emails from struggling Windows users it is easy to agree
Windows is not made for new devs.

Cheers

Mike

PS:  I think the installer on Windows should install to a
user-accessible location on the file system - not Program files. When I
first installed Python on Windows the default location was C:\Python24
(I think). New users won't see it there but when they do need to look at
it they will find it much more accessible.

PPS: Christoph Gohlke's work should be formally supported by PSF and
become "Official".

[moi]

Le mercredi 15 avril 2020 21:03:27 UTC+2, Barry Scott a écrit :

On Windows, Python 3 is no more working since years.
Python 2.7 does a better job.

[Barry Scott]

At a first guess its the folks that email screen snap shots to us on a daily basis and ask about why python prompts to repair, uninstall.

>
> The description might specify the level of Windows expertise (or lack of) in exquisite detail. You need age, gender, education level, etc. You need a real person in your mind's eye to prepare the product for. You need to be able to imagine the answer to any question you might ask such an imaginary person. Plus understanding colleagues if they hear you asking :)
>
> Maybe the objective is to write hello world or a simple game in a dos prompt. If gui skill attainment is felt to be important for the defined audience then hello world would probably be enough.
>
> If the defined neophyte user is sufficiently inexperienced then forget IDEs and focus only on a text editor with syntax highlighting.
>
> We all know how important virtual envs are and multiple Python installs but newbies don't need or even want to know that. Time enough to realise you need it when it solves a future roadblock for you. It is impossible to get started when confronted with too much information.
>
> The bottom line is that Windows is designed to hide things from the user. Our new user might be very experienced in MS Office but knows nothing about the operating system. That means the installer needs to provide a desktop shortcut which delivers a pre-defined user experience and from which the user can emerge with clear understanding.
>
> I would suggest one click (double-click actually) to open a command prompt with the interpreter running ready to accept input. Another which opened a getting-started document which assumes no prior knowledge but requires a ready Python interpreter. Finally another entitled "Next steps". From my perspective the installer should create a desktop folder called "Python shortcuts" to contain all such clickable nirvana.

Interesting that's what I go from Dennis's reply.

>
> Think about a bootstrap track on a disk. There is only enough there to get to the next step.
>
>>
>> As mentioned, I don't pay the regular 'MSFT-tax'. However, many use MS-Windows because that's what they've been given, or must use, at their work. I have read articles which suggest that MS-Windows has improved to the point of making a good/better dev.platform. Whether *I* agree, or not, is of no import in this conversation.
>
> But it is interesting. I use Windows because I have no choice. All my production machines are non-gui Ubuntu. I started my programming on non-gui PCs which made it simple with Windows. However, on reading some of these emails from struggling Windows users it is easy to agree Windows is not made for new devs.
>
> Cheers
>
> Mike
>
> PS: I think the installer on Windows should install to a user-accessible location on the file system - not Program files. When I first installed Python on Windows the default location was C:\Python24 (I think). New users won't see it there but when they do need to look at it they will find it much more accessible.

I think that is a none issue as py.exe is the Windows CMD interface to python.
I stopped needing python.exe on my PATH in windows a long time ago, its just too hard to work with the PATH.
I have 14 versions of python installed at the moment. py.exe can trivially get to all of them.

I think it's a mistake to ask users to mess with the PATH on windows.

>
> PPS: Christoph Gohlke's work should be formally supported by PSF and become "Official".

What is this work?

Barry

>
>>
>>
>> If one downloads other Win-installer installed software, what happens? Is Python's Win-download following the same, expected, pattern?
>> If not, why not?
>> Why does the installer not delete itself after (successful) installation? ie why are users left a situation where (what is actually) re-installation is the most obvious 'next thing to do'?
>>
>>
>> What about installing a menu-item (or whatever they call those Win-10 home-screen 'boxes'), and that it either:
>> - launches Idle as a dev.env, or
>> - opens a 'DOS box' and fires-up Python from the cmdLN
>>
>> Either would at-least allow neophytes to get-started. Neither would affect established users, who dive straight into their IDE-of-choice.
>>
>> As for other distributions: what they do is their business. Literally! After all, (in thought) one man's baldachin is another man's canopy...
>>
>>
>> Meantime, we cut-down on so many of the essentially repetitive 'noise' questions on this list. Perhaps more importantly, it removes the temptation to assume that the tenth such enquiry this-week, has come from the same person as the other nine, and thus to respond bluntly, impolitely, or in an other than encouraging fashion. (see also the Python Foundation's several diversity, inclusion, and other principles)
>

> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

[Barry Scott]

> On 16 Apr 2020, at 04:34, Dennis Lee Bieber <wlf...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 19:23:43 +0100, Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org>
> declaimed the following:
>
>> I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
>> to better sign post users on the next steps.
>>
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python...@python.org/message/TKHID7PMKN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/
>>
>> It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
>> reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
>> reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
>> without drafting the text a reply every time.
>>
>> What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?
>
> No other Windows installers that I know of provide information on how
> to use the installed application. Anyone installing software should realize
> that the installer file itself is just that, an installer, and not be used
> in attempts to run the installed application, they should look elsewhere
> for the application itself.

As I noted on the idea list the installer already has a wizard panel that provides
pointer. I'm suggesting that given the misunderstandings that text can be
improved in the hope that it helps.

Is it as simple as the other installers insist on littering my desktop with icons?
Is that the trick?

>
> I would also note that there are MANY Python installers for Windows:
> Python.org, ActiveState, Anaconda, Enthought, and even (for Win10) the M$
> "app store" has one. Are you proposing that all these sources need to make
> changes to their distributions?

If core dev's agree we can fix the python.org installers. Maybe other will follow
our lead if it helps.

Barry

[Souvik Dutta]

Could do that. But a more easier one might be an extra screen that says
about how to start the idle.

Souvik flutter dev

> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

[anson freer]

a new users point of view
to the IEEE Electromagnetic Compatibility Society
I do not know how to ask a question when:
It isn't saying to type a $, it's saying to type at the system prompt.
Similarly, if it says:
>>> print("Hello")
it's saying to type at the Python prompt.
This is a common convention in instructions for programming.

I do not know anything about programming with python
I'm 80 and I grew up playing in dirt and failing,but I did learn.
we are a blank slate. we know nothing
we get embarrassed that you do not understand the question
not realizing you do not you do not understand the question
so we stop asking.
Thank you for trying



On Thu, Apr 16, 2020 at 10:27 AM Souvik Dutta <souvik...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

[Souvik Dutta]

I think there should be a text an the end of the installation process that
should say how to run idle. I think this confusion happens because of how
android installs any app.

On Thu, 16 Apr, 2020, 12:33 am Barry Scott, <ba...@barrys-emacs.org> wrote:

> I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
> to better sign post users on the next steps.
>
>
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python...@python.org/message/TKHID7P
MKN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/
>
> It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
> reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
> reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
> without drafting the text a reply every time.
>
> What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?
>

> Barry
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>

[Mike Dewhirst]

On 16/04/2020 2:46 pm, DL Neil via Python-list wrote:

> On 16/04/20 3:34 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>> On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 19:23:43 +0100, Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org>
>> declaimed the following:
>>

>>> I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
>>> to better sign post users on the next steps.
>>>
>>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python...@python.org/message/TKHID
7PMKN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/
>>>
>>>
>>> It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
>>> reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
>>> reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
>>> without drafting the text a reply every time.
>>>
>>> What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?
>>

>> â â â â No other Windows installers that I know of provide information on

>> how
>> to use the installed application. Anyone installing software should
>> realize
>> that the installer file itself is just that, an installer, and not be
>> used
>> in attempts to run the installed application, they should look elsewhere
>> for the application itself.
>>

>> â â â â I would also note that there are MANY Python installers for Windows:

>> Python.org, ActiveState, Anaconda, Enthought, and even (for Win10)
>> the M$
>> "app store" has one. Are you proposing that all these sources need to
>> make
>> changes to their distributions?
>
>

> @Barry's observation is that many first-time Python-on-Windows users
> seem to fail at the first click. (I have also voiced similar concerns
> 'here')

I use Python on both Windows and Linux. Therefore I more or less disqualify
myself from being able to comment. I have found ways to operate successfully
and would only really be able to suggest what works for me. But I do feel moved
to offer my thoughts.

The real solution is to more closely define the target audience plus the Python
precise skill attainment desired.

Carefully describe/define the first-time Python user on Windows. Then prepare
the installer to suit that definition.

Think about a bootstrap track on a disk. There is only enough there to get to
the next step.

>
> As mentioned, I don't pay the regular 'MSFT-tax'. However, many use
> MS-Windows because that's what they've been given, or must use, at
> their work. I have read articles which suggest that MS-Windows has
> improved to the point of making a good/better dev.platform. Whether
> *I* agree, or not, is of no import in this conversation.

But it is interesting. I use Windows because I have no choice. All my
production machines are non-gui Ubuntu. I started my programming on non-gui PCs
which made it simple with Windows. However, on reading some of these emails
from struggling Windows users it is easy to agree Windows is not made for new
devs.

Cheers

Mike

PS:â I think the installer on Windows should install to a user-accessible

location on the file system - not Program files. When I first installed Python
on Windows the default location was C:\Python24 (I think). New users won't see
it there but when they do need to look at it they will find it much more
accessible.

PPS: Christoph Gohlke's work should be formally supported by PSF and
become "Official".

>
>

[joseph pareti]

FWIW, here is my experience on Windows 10.

I had some troubles with python on Windows 10. Most of the issues were
presumably due to having multiple python versions on the same PC, and also
relying on 'miniconda3' which was kind of inherited from an older experiment.

At some point, to recover from a system crash I had to re-install Windows 10,
and after that I installed the full suite of Anaconda products. Things improved
a lot. Besides Python and Jupyter notebook, i find Spyder very useful as an
IDE, and everything seems to be running smoothly. On top of that I also
installed PyTorch 1.4: I am currently training a neural network which takes
more than 20 hours. The only annoying thing was the occasional automatic reboot
during keyboard inactivity which I then disabled at the "Windows Update" menu.

Am Mi., 15. Apr. 2020 um 21:06 Uhr schrieb Barry Scott <
ba...@barrys-emacs.org>:

> I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
> to better sign post users on the next steps.
>
>
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python...@python.org/message/TKHID7P
MKN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/
>
> It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
> reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
> reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
> without drafting the text a reply every time.
>
> What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?
>

> Barry
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


--

[Dennis Lee Bieber]

On Wed, 15 Apr 2020 19:23:43 +0100, Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org>
declaimed the following:

>I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
>to better sign post users on the next steps.
>
>https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python...@python.org/message/TKHID7PM
KN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/
>
>It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
>reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
>reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
>without drafting the text a reply every time.
>
>What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?

No other Windows installers that I know of provide information on how
to use the installed application. Anyone installing software should realize
that the installer file itself is just that, an installer, and not be used in
attempts to run the installed application, they should look elsewhere for the
application itself.

I would also note that there are MANY Python installers for Windows:
Python.org, ActiveState, Anaconda, Enthought, and even (for Win10) the M$ "app
store" has one. Are you proposing that all these sources need to make changes
to their distributions?

--
Wulfraed Dennis Lee Bieber AF6VN
wlf...@ix.netcom.com http://wlfraed.microdiversity.freeddns.org/

[DL Neil]

On 16/04/20 3:34 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:

@Barry's observation is that many first-time Python-on-Windows users
seem to fail at the first click. (I have also voiced similar concerns
'here')

As mentioned, I don't pay the regular 'MSFT-tax'. However, many use MS-Windows
because that's what they've been given, or must use, at their work. I have read
articles which suggest that MS-Windows has improved to the point of making a
good/better dev.platform. Whether *I* agree, or not, is of no import in this
conversation.

If one downloads other Win-installer installed software, what happens? Is
Python's Win-download following the same, expected, pattern? If not, why not?
Why does the installer not delete itself after (successful) installation? ie
why are users left a situation where (what is actually) re-installation is the
most obvious 'next thing to do'?


What about installing a menu-item (or whatever they call those Win-10
home-screen 'boxes'), and that it either:
- launches Idle as a dev.env, or
- opens a 'DOS box' and fires-up Python from the cmdLN

Either would at-least allow neophytes to get-started. Neither would affect
established users, who dive straight into their IDE-of-choice.

As for other distributions: what they do is their business. Literally! After
all, (in thought) one man's baldachin is another man's canopy...


Meantime, we cut-down on so many of the essentially repetitive 'noise'
questions on this list. Perhaps more importantly, it removes the temptation to
assume that the tenth such enquiry this-week, has come from the same person as
the other nine, and thus to respond bluntly, impolitely, or in an other than
encouraging fashion. (see also the Python Foundation's several diversity,
inclusion, and other principles)

--
Regards =dn

[moi]

Le mercredi 15 avril 2020 21:03:27 UTC+2, Barry Scott a ÄCcritâ :

[Barry Scott]

I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows to better
sign post users on the next steps.

https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python...@python.org/message/TKHID7PMK
N5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/

It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful reply to
help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that reply to the
Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply without drafting the text
a reply every time.

What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?

Barry

[boB Stepp]

I wonder if the last screen of the installer should have a checkbox,
checked by default, that launches IDLE. IDLE would then display a
helpful text file on this first launch describing how to use IDLE, how
to find and launch it again, etc. As well have it describe all of the
help you are advocating here as well. It would be a minor annoyance
for experienced users to have to uncheck the box before clicking
finish, but I think it might have a good chance of getting new users
off to a reliable start. Many other Windows program installers are
setup similarly to launch the program being installed. This is a
little different as IDLE is not Python, but that is a minor quibble, I
think.


--
boB

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 6:02 AM boB Stepp <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I wonder if the last screen of the installer should have a checkbox,
> checked by default, that launches IDLE. IDLE would then display a
> helpful text file on this first launch describing how to use IDLE, how
> to find and launch it again, etc. As well have it describe all of the
> help you are advocating here as well. It would be a minor annoyance
> for experienced users to have to uncheck the box before clicking
> finish, but I think it might have a good chance of getting new users
> off to a reliable start. Many other Windows program installers are
> setup similarly to launch the program being installed. This is a
> little different as IDLE is not Python, but that is a minor quibble, I
> think.

It's provided by default, it's part of the standard library, and it's
a good consistent interface for Windows users. I'd be in favour of
this. It's also not as vulnerable to the problem of "no matter how
much info you throw at people, they still won't read it".

Of course, this would mean there'd be some who still won't figure out
how to open up Idle any other way, so they'll rerun the installer just
to open up the REPL... but at least it'll work, and the rest is just
https://xkcd.com/763/ material.

ChrisA

[Barry Scott]

> On 18 Apr 2020, at 21:00, boB Stepp <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:04 PM Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
>>
>> I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
>> to better sign post users on the next steps.
>>
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python...@python.org/message/TKHID7PMKN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/
>>
>> It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
>> reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
>> reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
>> without drafting the text a reply every time.
>>
>> What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?
>

> I wonder if the last screen of the installer should have a checkbox,
> checked by default, that launches IDLE. IDLE would then display a
> helpful text file on this first launch describing how to use IDLE, how
> to find and launch it again, etc. As well have it describe all of the
> help you are advocating here as well. It would be a minor annoyance
> for experienced users to have to uncheck the box before clicking
> finish, but I think it might have a good chance of getting new users
> off to a reliable start. Many other Windows program installers are
> setup similarly to launch the program being installed. This is a
> little different as IDLE is not Python, but that is a minor quibble, I
> think.

The problem with launching IDLE from the installer is that the user is not
shown how do it without the installer.

Launching a "Getting started" with the how to steps might work better
on that checkbox.

Barry


>
>
> --
> boB
>

[Pieter van Oostrum]

Or just display a short HTML page describing the first steps to start
using Python. It could mention the command line (py) to be used with a
text editor (some recommendations) and IDLE. And how not to double click
.py files :)
--
Pieter van Oostrum
www: http://pieter.vanoostrum.org/
PGP key: [8DAE142BE17999C4]

[boB Stepp]

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 4:30 AM Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On 18 Apr 2020, at 21:00, boB Stepp <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >

> > On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:04 PM Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org> wrote:

> >> What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?
> >
> > I wonder if the last screen of the installer should have a checkbox,
> > checked by default, that launches IDLE. IDLE would then display a
> > helpful text file on this first launch describing how to use IDLE, how
> > to find and launch it again, etc. As well have it describe all of the
> > help you are advocating here as well. It would be a minor annoyance
> > for experienced users to have to uncheck the box before clicking
> > finish, but I think it might have a good chance of getting new users
> > off to a reliable start. Many other Windows program installers are
> > setup similarly to launch the program being installed. This is a
> > little different as IDLE is not Python, but that is a minor quibble, I
> > think.
>

> The problem with launching IDLE from the installer is that the user is not
> shown how do it without the installer.
>
> Launching a "Getting started" with the how to steps might work better
> on that checkbox.

IDLE can display text files as well as .py/.pyw files. Are there
technical reasons why it would be difficult to have the first opening
of IDLE showing the contents of an informative text file as you
suggest? One drawback is that there would be no clickable links if
this were done.

--
boB

[Barry Scott]

> On 18 Apr 2020, at 21:00, boB Stepp <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:04 PM Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
>>

>> I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
>> to better sign post users on the next steps.
>>
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python...@python.org/message/TKHID7
PMKN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/
>>
>> It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
>> reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
>> reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
>> without drafting the text a reply every time.
>>

>> What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?
>
> I wonder if the last screen of the installer should have a checkbox,
> checked by default, that launches IDLE. IDLE would then display a
> helpful text file on this first launch describing how to use IDLE, how
> to find and launch it again, etc. As well have it describe all of the
> help you are advocating here as well. It would be a minor annoyance
> for experienced users to have to uncheck the box before clicking
> finish, but I think it might have a good chance of getting new users
> off to a reliable start. Many other Windows program installers are
> setup similarly to launch the program being installed. This is a
> little different as IDLE is not Python, but that is a minor quibble, I
> think.

The problem with launching IDLE from the installer is that the user is not
shown how do it without the installer.

Launching a "Getting started" with the how to steps might work better on that
checkbox.

Barry


>
>
> --
> boB
>

[boB Stepp]

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 4:30 AM Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
>
>
>

[Pieter van Oostrum]

boB Stepp <robert...@gmail.com> writes:

> On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:04 PM Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
>>

>> I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
>> to better sign post users on the next steps.
>>
>> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python...@python.org/message/TKHID7
PMKN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/
>>
>> It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
>> reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
>> reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
>> without drafting the text a reply every time.
>>

>> What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?
>
> I wonder if the last screen of the installer should have a checkbox,
> checked by default, that launches IDLE. IDLE would then display a
> helpful text file on this first launch describing how to use IDLE, how
> to find and launch it again, etc. As well have it describe all of the
> help you are advocating here as well. It would be a minor annoyance
> for experienced users to have to uncheck the box before clicking
> finish, but I think it might have a good chance of getting new users
> off to a reliable start. Many other Windows program installers are
> setup similarly to launch the program being installed. This is a
> little different as IDLE is not Python, but that is a minor quibble, I
> think.

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Apr 19, 2020 at 6:02 AM boB Stepp <robert...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I wonder if the last screen of the installer should have a checkbox,
> checked by default, that launches IDLE. IDLE would then display a
> helpful text file on this first launch describing how to use IDLE, how
> to find and launch it again, etc. As well have it describe all of the
> help you are advocating here as well. It would be a minor annoyance
> for experienced users to have to uncheck the box before clicking
> finish, but I think it might have a good chance of getting new users
> off to a reliable start. Many other Windows program installers are
> setup similarly to launch the program being installed. This is a
> little different as IDLE is not Python, but that is a minor quibble, I
> think.

[boB Stepp]

On Wed, Apr 15, 2020 at 2:04 PM Barry Scott <ba...@barrys-emacs.org> wrote:
>
> I post some suggestion to improve the Python installer for Windows
> to better sign post users on the next steps.
>
> https://mail.python.org/archives/list/python...@python.org/message/TKHID7P
MKN5TK5QDQ2BL3G45FYAJNYJX/
>
> It also seems like we could do with drafting the text of a helpful
> reply to help the Windows first time users. This would help folks that
> reply to the Windows first time users to have a quick way to reply
> without drafting the text a reply every time.
>
> What are your thoughts on the installer changes and reply text?

I wonder if the last screen of the installer should have a checkbox, checked by
default, that launches IDLE. IDLE would then display a helpful text file on
this first launch describing how to use IDLE, how to find and launch it again,
etc. As well have it describe all of the help you are advocating here as well.
It would be a minor annoyance for experienced users to have to uncheck the
box before clicking finish, but I think it might have a good chance of getting
new users off to a reliable start. Many other Windows program installers are
setup similarly to launch the program being installed. This is a little
different as IDLE is not Python, but that is a minor quibble, I think.

--
boB