When first person shooter with FullHD in Forth? When? When?

[Ilya Tarasov]

Am I like gavino? :)

Ok... it is NOW. You cannot shoot, but can walk around - russians are very peaceful.

http://fforum.winglion.ru/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3142

600 lines of code (Quark Forth), plus some graphics of course.

[m...@iae.nl]

There is an extensively (over)documented Forth SDL binding
by Timothy Trussell (2010, clf). It shows a few of these
dynamic scenes, the NeHe lessons, a full OpenGL game, and
some non-OpenGL stuff. The 64bit version is available in
iForth. (Not to say Quark isn't nice.)

-marcel

[Ilya Tarasov]

Im not very interested on historical aspects. Maybe even in 1980th some Forth program was written to use graphics. If library you pointed is so smart, why no 3D programs are follow?

My piece of code based on pure OpenGL instead of SDL. If nobody has a question how 600 lines of code can provide walking on 3D scene - it is their choice... and my conclusions. And, of course, I know about SDL, but my example is just a toy before going to real project.

[Julian Fondren]

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 7:51:07 AM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> My piece of code based on pure OpenGL instead of SDL.

Your code probably has some parts that say "let there be OpenGL".
Those parts of your code are not, themselves, 'pure OpenGL'. Those
parts are where you might've used SDL.

> If nobody has a question

Where's the code?
What's "Quark Forth"? Where's that?

All I see at your URL is a screenshot.

It seems like you anticipated someone saying that this had been done
before. Did you anticipate anyone asking any questions? Whereas a
prepared comeback comes off strange when it's not deployed against the
exact target that was in mind, you'll more rarely get complaints about
some pre-answered questions.

[gavino himself]

NICE!!

[gavino himself]

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 8:51:07 AM UTC-4, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> Im not very interested on historical aspects. Maybe even in 1980th some Forth program was written to use graphics. If library you pointed is so smart, why no 3D programs are follow?
>
> My piece of code based on pure OpenGL instead of SDL. If nobody has a question how 600 lines of code can provide walking on 3D scene - it is their choice... and my conclusions. And, of course, I know about SDL, but my example is just a toy before going to real project.

Outstanding work!! Working software is the best argument!

[gavino himself]

Whats a nehe lesson?
Is Iforth free?

[Ilya Tarasov]

понедельник, 25 сентября 2017 г., 18:54:36 UTC+3 пользователь Julian Fondren написал:

> On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 7:51:07 AM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > My piece of code based on pure OpenGL instead of SDL.
>
> Your code probably has some parts that say "let there be OpenGL".
> Those parts of your code are not, themselves, 'pure OpenGL'. Those
> parts are where you might've used SDL.

Or DirectX. Or something else as well. OpenGL library is available after the graphics card drivers are installed, but SDL is not. I see no serious reasons to use SDL instead of OpenGL and have no goal to promote SDL.

> > If nobody has a question
>
> Where's the code?

On my computer, of course. As I note many times, algorithms are more important than sources for copy-paste. I can list snippets of code and tell about critical sections, but don't plan to publish the code 'as is'. For that purposes? To make lazy guys busy for 5 minutes? :)

> What's "Quark Forth"? Where's that?

The first links on the Google leads to the right place to download.

> All I see at your URL is a screenshot.
>
> It seems like you anticipated someone saying that this had been done
> before. Did you anticipate anyone asking any questions? Whereas a
> prepared comeback comes off strange when it's not deployed against the
> exact target that was in mind, you'll more rarely get complaints about
> some pre-answered questions.

Of course, for your comfort you can prepare the situation to represent me as anti-social crude troll. This will keep you in sweet illusions Forth is the best language, but writing code like DUP + DROP is enough to feel yourself a master. Pointing to links about great Forth achievements is useful for this too. This is not my way - I need Forth for practical tasks and think it is very smart if we want to tune our software tools.

[Julian Fondren]

On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 2:50:17 PM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> понедельник, 25 сентября 2017 г., 18:54:36 UTC+3 пользователь Julian Fondren написал:
> > On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 7:51:07 AM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > > My piece of code based on pure OpenGL instead of SDL.
> >
> > Your code probably has some parts that say "let there be OpenGL".
> > Those parts of your code are not, themselves, 'pure OpenGL'. Those
> > parts are where you might've used SDL.
>
> Or DirectX.

What? Do you mean that you can use DirectX to set up the environment
that would let you use OpenGL?

> Or something else as well. OpenGL library is available after the graphics card drivers are installed, but SDL is not. I see no serious reasons to use SDL instead of OpenGL and have no goal to promote SDL.

No, since you're saying "SDL instead of OpenGL", I take it that you've
completely failed to understand what I said.

Anyway, I'm happy to agree that Ilya Tarasov doesn't care about SDL.

Moving on,

> > Where's the code?
>
> On my computer, of course.

OK. I have no questions about it then.

> > What's "Quark Forth"? Where's that?
>
> The first links on the Google leads to the right place to download.

Google, besides censoring and altering results for partisan political
reasons, also tries to provide results that are of interest to who it
reckons to be asking. I get nothing about 'Quark Forth' when I ask
Google about it. Before asking you, I asked duckduckgo, and found some
suggestive links to a CAD software that I can get for 900 USD or so.
Only suggestive though, I have no idea if Quark Forth is inside.

This is the second time that I've asked you a question and gotten a
worthless, snippy response. So, you present a cool screenshot with no
other information and don't get questions about it right away. Maybe
people just don't care about serious software. Maybe there's another
reason.

> Of course, for your comfort you can prepare the situation to represent me as anti-social crude troll.

Yeah, you're a annoying sperg alright. Remarks like "Where's the code?
What's Quark Forth? Your prepared comeback was a little weak, try
something like a FAQ instead." would not normally set someone up as an
anti-social crude troll. Normally you'd just get a normal conversation
out of remarks like that.

[Ilya Tarasov]

понедельник, 25 сентября 2017 г., 23:44:00 UTC+3 пользователь Julian Fondren написал:

> On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 2:50:17 PM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > понедельник, 25 сентября 2017 г., 18:54:36 UTC+3 пользователь Julian Fondren написал:
> > > On Monday, September 25, 2017 at 7:51:07 AM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > > > My piece of code based on pure OpenGL instead of SDL.
> > >
> > > Your code probably has some parts that say "let there be OpenGL".
> > > Those parts of your code are not, themselves, 'pure OpenGL'. Those
> > > parts are where you might've used SDL.
> >
> > Or DirectX.
>
> What? Do you mean that you can use DirectX to set up the environment
> that would let you use OpenGL?

I'm starting from the task. We can draw 3D graphics with DirectX (Direct3D) or OpenGL - this is a base list of 3D libraries. SDL is a higher level tool, which can be used or not depending on our requirements. Having an access to basic OpenGL functions, it is easy to build a simple scene without SDL. We can use Unity3D instead of SDL, indeed... or even Unreal Engine, but is this what we need?

> > Or something else as well. OpenGL library is available after the graphics card drivers are installed, but SDL is not. I see no serious reasons to use SDL instead of OpenGL and have no goal to promote SDL.
>
> No, since you're saying "SDL instead of OpenGL", I take it that you've
> completely failed to understand what I said.

Maybe. I know what SDL is and how it corresponds to OpenGL. There are different kind of software tools and you can't use SDL without OpenGL (OpenGL is 'inside' SDL). I told I can get results shown with OpenGL only, installed on almost every PC.

> > > What's "Quark Forth"? Where's that?
> >
> > The first links on the Google leads to the right place to download.
>
> Google, besides censoring and altering results for partisan political
> reasons, also tries to provide results that are of interest to who it
> reckons to be asking. I get nothing about 'Quark Forth' when I ask
> Google about it. Before asking you, I asked duckduckgo, and found some
> suggestive links to a CAD software that I can get for 900 USD or so.
> Only suggestive though, I have no idea if Quark Forth is inside.

Well, I see the first link on my Google page:

http://msyst.ru/index.php/activities/86-forth-cat/115-quark-forth

> This is the second time that I've asked you a question and gotten a
> worthless, snippy response. So, you present a cool screenshot with no
> other information and don't get questions about it right away. Maybe
> people just don't care about serious software. Maybe there's another
> reason.

Maybe. I don't know. I want to see a discussion about complete software design instead of discussion about pretty-looking pieces of code. I'm happy someone in 2010 had Forth-based graphics, but this is just an argument for using Forth in projects in future, not to stop even thinking about code improvement.

> > Of course, for your comfort you can prepare the situation to represent me as anti-social crude troll.
>
> Yeah, you're a annoying sperg alright. Remarks like "Where's the code?
> What's Quark Forth? Your prepared comeback was a little weak, try
> something like a FAQ instead." would not normally set someone up as an
> anti-social crude troll. Normally you'd just get a normal conversation
> out of remarks like that.

It is more interesting for me to tell about lighting, using mouse+keyboard to move, Forth scripting for scene creation etc. I doubt everyone here can simple take a look on my code and find a hidden errors, so let's move step by step.

[Paul Rubin]

Julian Fondren <julian....@gmail.com> writes:
> I get nothing about 'Quark Forth' when I ask Google about it

The first two ghits I see for for "quark forth" (in quotes) are:

1: Quark Forth (@Quark_Forth) | Twitter
https://twitter.com/quark_forth

The latest Tweets from Quark Forth (@Quark_Forth). Home of the free
Embedded Quark language (dialect of Forth)

2: Quark-Forth - ЗАО НПО "Измерительные системы"
msyst.ru/index.php/activities/86-forth-cat/115-quark-forth
Translate this page
Jun 9, 2012 - Quark-Forth (quark) – 32-разрядный транслятор языка Форт
(Forth), предназначенный для работы в ОС Windows. Преимущественное ...

[m...@iae.nl]

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 7:45:45 AM UTC+2, Paul Rubin wrote:
> Julian Fondren <julian....@gmail.com> writes:
> > I get nothing about 'Quark Forth' when I ask Google about it
>
> The first two ghits I see for for "quark forth" (in quotes) are:
>
> 1: Quark Forth (@Quark_Forth) | Twitter
> https://twitter.com/quark_forth
>
> The latest Tweets from Quark Forth (@Quark_Forth). Home of the free
> Embedded Quark language (dialect of Forth)

It is deeply embedded all right :-)

> 2: Quark-Forth - ЗАО НПО "Измерительные системы"
> msyst.ru/index.php/activities/86-forth-cat/115-quark-forth
> Translate this page
> Jun 9, 2012 - Quark-Forth (quark) – 32-разрядный транслятор языка Форт
> (Forth), предназначенный для работы в ОС Windows. Преимущественное ...

I had it translated, but it gets no better than the png.
The thread appears to be ignored.

Timothy published the complete source code on clf, several
installments, all working as specified (completely ignored
just the same).

There is a similar OpenGL project from the same epoch
in gForth on Forthnet with full source code.

-marcel

[Alex]

On 25-Sep-17 22:40, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
>>>> What's "Quark Forth"? Where's that?
>>> The first links on the Google leads to the right place to
>>> download.
>> Google, besides censoring and altering results for partisan
>> political reasons, also tries to provide results that are of
>> interest to who it reckons to be asking. I get nothing about 'Quark
>> Forth' when I ask Google about it. Before asking you, I asked
>> duckduckgo, and found some suggestive links to a CAD software that
>> I can get for 900 USD or so. Only suggestive though, I have no idea
>> if Quark Forth is inside.
> Well, I see the first link on my Google page:
>
> http://msyst.ru/index.php/activities/86-forth-cat/115-quark-forth
>

Google doesn't show me that; it's the 7th when I search. A rather
useless twitter handle @Quark_Forth shows up first, and a physics page
"GIM mechanism - Wikipedia" right above it, but that's probably because
I regularly use Twitter and have an interest in physics. You have to
remember that Google's algorithms don't give the same results for you
and me. Results appear to be biased towards physical location, language
and your previous search history.

--
Alex

[rickman]

Ilya Tarasov wrote on 9/25/2017 3:50 PM:
>
> Of course, for your comfort you can prepare the situation to represent me as anti-social crude troll. This will keep you in sweet illusions

No, I think that image of you is not far off. But whatever. You aren't the
only troll in this group.

So I can't say I follow why you started this thread. You dangle a tiny
teaser out there and then complain about entering into arguments with
people. What were you hoping would happen instead?

--

Rick C

Viewed the eclipse at Wintercrest Farms,
on the centerline of totality since 1998

[hughag...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 1:46:07 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> Am I like gavino? :)
>
> Ok... it is NOW. You cannot shoot, but can walk around - russians are very peaceful.

I don't like first-person shooter games because I think they are essentially "murder-porn" --- a negative contribution to society.

I recommend that you keep your game non-violent. I don't know if this has ever been done before --- you could be the first!

A possibility would be a rescue mission --- I'm not aware of this having been done before.
I've only spent 1 minute thinking about this, but here is my idea:
You have a school house near a volcano, and the volcano erupts. Your hero's job is to go to the school and organize the children, then lead them to safety.
You have to avoid lava, so get to high ground and do some recognizance on where the lava is flowing, so you don't get surprised by having your path blocked.
If there is a Julian Fondren type of child at the school (sitting in the back eating Elmer's Glue and carving dirty words on his desk with a pocket-knife),
it is okay to leave that child behind. Don't jeopardize the others for him.
The lesson of the game is that you can't save everybody. The only way to win the game is to leave some of the children behind to die.
Trying to save all of them will result in losing all of them --- failure!

ANS-Forth failed because there was too much ambiguity.
Everybody wanted their Forth to be "standard" because this is a selling-point.
Elizabeth Rather told everybody that they could be "standard" in exchange for brown-nosing her --- saying that she was the "leading expert" of Forth.
The problem is that none of their Forth systems were compatible with each other --- this is why ANS-Forth is badly infected with ambiguity now.
The school-house in the game is an analogy for the ANS-Forth committee...

I have other ideas for games that are completely different from any games I've ever heard about. Human sacrifice is a common theme.
Contact me by private email for more! :-)

> http://fforum.winglion.ru/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3142
>
> 600 lines of code (Quark Forth), plus some graphics of course.

I looked into SP-Forth. It was supposed to have source-code, but it didn't.
When I asked about this I was told that it did have source-code, but I wasn't told how to obtain it.
Also, SP-Forth has fake quotations. Because of these reasons, I lost interest in SP-Forth.

Your Quark Forth is derived from SP-Forth. I would be interested in it if source-code is available.
Do you have English documentation?

[Alex]

On 26-Sep-17 19:12, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 1:46:07 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov
> wrote:
>> Am I like gavino? :)
>>
>> Ok... it is NOW. You cannot shoot, but can walk around - russians
>> are very peaceful.
>
> I don't like first-person shooter games because I think they are
> essentially "murder-porn" --- a negative contribution to society.
>
> I recommend that you keep your game non-violent. I don't know if this
> has ever been done before --- you could be the first!
>
> A possibility would be a rescue mission --- I'm not aware of this
> having been done before. I've only spent 1 minute thinking about
> this, but here is my idea: You have a school house near a volcano,
> and the volcano erupts. Your hero's job is to go to the school and
> organize the children, then lead them to safety. You have to avoid
> lava, so get to high ground and do some recognizance on where the
> lava is flowing, so you don't get surprised by having your path
> blocked. If there is a Julian Fondren type of child at the school
> (sitting in the back eating Elmer's Glue and carving dirty words on
> his desk with a pocket-knife), it is okay to leave that child behind.

Revenge porn.

> Don't jeopardize the others for him. The lesson of the game is that
> you can't save everybody. The only way to win the game is to leave
> some of the children behind to die. Trying to save all of them will
> result in losing all of them --- failure!

Moloch porn.

>
> ANS-Forth failed because there was too much ambiguity. Everybody
> wanted their Forth to be "standard" because this is a selling-point.
> Elizabeth Rather told everybody that they could be "standard" in
> exchange for brown-nosing her --- saying that she was the "leading
> expert" of Forth. The problem is that none of their Forth systems
> were compatible with each other --- this is why ANS-Forth is badly
> infected with ambiguity now. The school-house in the game is an
> analogy for the ANS-Forth committee...

Pyromaniac porn.

>
> I have other ideas for games that are completely different from any
> games I've ever heard about. Human sacrifice is a common theme.
> Contact me by private email for more! :-)

Huitzilopochtli porn.

>
>> http://fforum.winglion.ru/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3142
>>
>> 600 lines of code (Quark Forth), plus some graphics of course.
>
> I looked into SP-Forth. It was supposed to have source-code, but it
> didn't. When I asked about this I was told that it did have
> source-code, but I wasn't told how to obtain it. Also, SP-Forth has
> fake quotations. Because of these reasons, I lost interest in
> SP-Forth.

Not porn.

>
> Your Quark Forth is derived from SP-Forth. I would be interested in
> it if source-code is available. Do you have English documentation?
>

Forth porn.

--
Alex

[gavino himself]

1 google are fascist fucks, fuck zuck 2020
2 dude please be civil, forthers are on the same side, this is the net and no one paid to answer you in your way, of what your culture says is right way, and this guy is like english second language and trying to share something cool....
3 lets relax and work together the tek is awesome
4 lets not get mad about small communication quirks

anyway
you both great people and smart no reason not b friends

[gavino himself]

guys lets be friends!!
focus on the tek!

[gavino himself]

killing things is awesome
its what I want to do in rel life nonstop
sex and violence are exicting parts of life
yeah!!!!!
yeaehaehaheahh!!
hugh ever play myth 2 soulblighter? its pisser!!

is killing zombies bad? they alrady dead? or monsters? aliens?

[Ilya Tarasov]

вторник, 26 сентября 2017 г., 21:12:28 UTC+3 пользователь hughag...@gmail.com написал:

> On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 1:46:07 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > Am I like gavino? :)
> >
> > Ok... it is NOW. You cannot shoot, but can walk around - russians are very peaceful.
>
> I don't like first-person shooter games because I think they are essentially "murder-porn" --- a negative contribution to society.
>
> I recommend that you keep your game non-violent. I don't know if this has ever been done before --- you could be the first!

This engine can be used for car or airplane simulator as well. Environment modelling, VR, other 3D drawing etc. I need to leran OpenGL deeply before going to next research project, so writing a game is very good to be sure I really learn this technology. It is so easy to consider himself as a master without writing a complete program, at least a simple game.

> A possibility would be a rescue mission --- I'm not aware of this having been done before.
> I've only spent 1 minute thinking about this, but here is my idea:
> You have a school house near a volcano, and the volcano erupts. Your hero's job is to go to the school and organize the children, then lead them to safety.
> You have to avoid lava, so get to high ground and do some recognizance on where the lava is flowing, so you don't get surprised by having your path blocked.

Walking modelling with jumps (physically correct) is good too.

> If there is a Julian Fondren type of child at the school (sitting in the back eating Elmer's Glue and carving dirty words on his desk with a pocket-knife),
> it is okay to leave that child behind. Don't jeopardize the others for him.
> The lesson of the game is that you can't save everybody. The only way to win the game is to leave some of the children behind to die.
> Trying to save all of them will result in losing all of them --- failure!

Perhaps I can send to them a big Russian bear to get them to the safe place. Bears are less tends to listen dirty words...

> ANS-Forth failed because there was too much ambiguity.
> Everybody wanted their Forth to be "standard" because this is a selling-point.
> Elizabeth Rather told everybody that they could be "standard" in exchange for brown-nosing her --- saying that she was the "leading expert" of Forth.
> The problem is that none of their Forth systems were compatible with each other --- this is why ANS-Forth is badly infected with ambiguity now.
> The school-house in the game is an analogy for the ANS-Forth committee...

It is interesting I use only opengl32.dll and glu32.dll. Having a basic OpenGL tutorial is enough to call OpenGL functions one by one. I wonder why it is so scary for someone to use very very common library to achieve some pretty results.

> I have other ideas for games that are completely different from any games I've ever heard about. Human sacrifice is a common theme.
> Contact me by private email for more! :-)
>
> > http://fforum.winglion.ru/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3142
> >
> > 600 lines of code (Quark Forth), plus some graphics of course.
>
> I looked into SP-Forth. It was supposed to have source-code, but it didn't.
> When I asked about this I was told that it did have source-code, but I wasn't told how to obtain it.
> Also, SP-Forth has fake quotations. Because of these reasons, I lost interest in SP-Forth.

'SP-Forth is a standard de-facto for Russia!' :) This should explain the most part of problems with SP-Forth...

> Your Quark Forth is derived from SP-Forth. I would be interested in it if source-code is available.
> Do you have English documentation?

Im sure 99% of activity after publishing sources for Quark will concentrated around critics and attempts to make it ANS-compatible. At least previous requests were around this. Calls for some practical usage were lost completely. Now I have a couple of practical users and a team around me - they just use Quark and happy enough with it. I see no reasons to hide Quark, but simple try to avoid a huge pile of garbage from loosers.

[rickman]

Ilya Tarasov wrote on 9/26/2017 5:05 PM:
> вторник, 26 сентября 2017 г., 21:12:28 UTC+3 пользователь hughag...@gmail.com написал:
>> On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 1:46:07 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
>>> Am I like gavino? :)
>>>
>>> Ok... it is NOW. You cannot shoot, but can walk around - russians are very peaceful.
>>
>> I don't like first-person shooter games because I think they are essentially "murder-porn" --- a negative contribution to society.
>>
>> I recommend that you keep your game non-violent. I don't know if this has ever been done before --- you could be the first!
>
> This engine can be used for car or airplane simulator as well. Environment modelling, VR, other 3D drawing etc. I need to leran OpenGL deeply before going to next research project, so writing a game is very good to be sure I really learn this technology. It is so easy to consider himself as a master without writing a complete program, at least a simple game.

A flight simulator would be pretty cool. Or believe it or not, there are
train simulators. Do they have tricycle simulators? How about a shopping
cart simulator? Or a walker simulator?

Oh, I know, a kayak simulator! You'd need to include views from under the
water for rolling. It would be pretty awesome. I'd be willing to take
photos for you to recreate the lake or rivers near me. The camera is water
proof, so I can even get under water views.

[Rod Pemberton]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 13:46:05 -0700 (PDT)
Ilya Tarasov <ilya74....@gmail.com> wrote:

> - russians are very peaceful.
>

Was that exceptionally dark sarcasm? ...

(I.e., history, both recent and past, would seem to disagree with you,
e.g., on the order of many tens of millions of dead people under Stalin,
or unlawful confiscation of foreign territory by Russia using military
force under Putin.)


Rod Pemberton
--
To Zuckerberg. The implementation of DACA is illegal. It was
particularly cruel for President Obama to punish young illegal aliens
in the future via deportation after selling them a false hope in the
American Dream.

[Rod Pemberton]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 13:55:24 -0700 (PDT)
gavino himself <jack...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey Gavino!

> 1 google are fascist fucks, fuck zuck 2020

Zuckerberg is Facebook, not Google. Clearly, the guy is not fully
human, e.g., perhaps autistic and not able to comprehend human
interactions or human implications of his decisions. So, yes, it would
be wise to prevent him from taking power in 2020 due to his mental
handicap, but even worse would be a one-hit-wonder amd blow-hard like
Cuban who raped Yahoo! for billions by selling them a worthless, money
losing company.

> 2 dude please be civil,

Civil people are divisive. They do something blatantly offensive or
wrong, will refuse to quit doing it, and will call it a protest over
something completely unrelated to what they're doing. Next, they'll
claim that their wrong actions, not only means something else other than
what everyone thinks it means, but that they're justified in committing
the wrong. When confronted over their blatant divisiveness, they will
ironically scold all the rest of us for being divisive. See NFL knee
controversy.

> forthers are on the same side,

That would not be correct. Madman Hugh is against everyone. Rick is
against other trolls, i.e., King Troll Rick. You're incomprehensible
enough that no one knows what side you're on for any issue, except for
doing something in 1% of the code by using Forth. We know you support
that. Oh, and you support being exceptionally impatient, i.e., "When?"

> 3 lets relax and work together

Impossible. Working together would be inclusive. Except, everyone who
is inclusive is automatically exclusive of someone. This is because
there is no belief or ideology or religion or philosophy in this world
which is all inclusive. So, if you believe in anything at all, then
someone must be excluded. I.e., we can't all work together no matter
how idealistic or utopian you think that would be. Besides, familiarity
breeds contempt. Everyone here is exceptionally familiar with each
other by now.

[Rod Pemberton]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2017 11:12:25 -0700 (PDT)
hughag...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 1:46:07 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote:

> > Ok... it is NOW. You cannot shoot, but can walk around - russians
> > are very peaceful.
>
> I don't like first-person shooter games because I think they are
> essentially "murder-porn" --- a negative contribution to society.
>
> I recommend that you keep your game non-violent. I don't know if this
> has ever been done before --- you could be the first!
>
> A possibility would be a rescue mission --- I'm not aware of this
> having been done before.

Don't you watch the movies or read the news? All rescue missions
require someone being murdered. Authorities must kill the bad guys,
first, before they will do any rescuing. Apparently, it's a perk of
the job.

> I've only spent 1 minute thinking about this,

Yup. It's abundantly clear that you spent one minute, if that,
thinking up this crap, and then another hour typing it out and even
sending it to harass us all.

> but here is my idea: You have a school house near a volcano,
> and the volcano erupts.

Who was the idiot put a school house near a volcano? Wouldn't that
be the game designer? Isn't that you? Idiot.

Not only do volcanoes occasionally spew deadly lava, but frequently spew
noxious and deadly fumes.

Even games need to have a sound and logical basis. This one doesn't
seem to have one so far.

> Your hero's job is to go to the school and organize the children,
> then lead them to safety.

LOL.

You can't be serious. One of two things has happened. They're scared
to death and won't leave. Or, they fled, probably running directly
into said volcano, due to the improper location of the school. That's
assuming the eruption didn't annihilate everyone, e.g., explosive blast.

> You have to avoid lava, so get to high ground and do some
> recognizance on where the lava is flowing, so you don't get
> surprised by having your path blocked.

Since this is a tilting at windmills quest or perhaps a snipe hunt, why
wouldn't the player just choose to stand in the lava and become a
volcanic statue? That seems to be more exciting to watch than playing
this game. What next? Do you intend to give the hero a broom to beat
the kids with to get them moving? What about an electric cord to tie
the kids together so they don't go wandering off into the volcano, or to
choke them to death before being burnt alive by lava? This game is
borderline fantasy child abuse.

> If there is a Julian Fondren
> type of child at the school (sitting in the back eating Elmer's Glue
> and carving dirty words on his desk with a pocket-knife), it is okay
> to leave that child behind. Don't jeopardize the others for him.

No, it is not acceptable to leave any child behind, even if he was an
imaginary kid in a game getting high on glue at the time. Despite
Hillary's temper tantrum, "What difference, at this point, does it
make?", getting people killed does matter. So too does leaving them
behind to die.

> The lesson of the game is that you can't save everybody.

We noticed. You're still here. We're still waiting to be saved. Not
to speak for others, but I think we're hoping you're the one who won't
be.

> The only way to win the game is to leave some of the children behind
> to die.

Are you volunteering to play that child? How do you deal with the
screams of the children being burnt alive and to a crisp by the lava?
This game you created is just sick, Hugh.

> Trying to save all of them will result in losing all of them ---
> failure!

Oh, so this is really a metaphor for yet another imaginary butt-hurt
you suffered on c.l.f. You just can't stop being "raped" by others
here, can you? You're always the poor little victim, and never the
instigator, nor the cause of trouble, misery, and pain for everyone
else.

> I have other ideas for games that are completely different from any
> games I've ever heard about. Human sacrifice is a common theme.

So, first person shooters are "murder porn" but human sacrifice
isn't? Clearly, you're sick or confused.

[rickman]

Sounds like a derivative of Oregon Trail. I'm just sayin'...

[rickman]

Rod Pemberton wrote on 9/27/2017 1:24 AM:

Was your first occupation as a grief counselor?

[Mark Wills]

On Tuesday, 26 September 2017 19:12:28 UTC+1, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 1:46:07 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > Am I like gavino? :)
> >
> > Ok... it is NOW. You cannot shoot, but can walk around - russians are very peaceful.
>
> I don't like first-person shooter games because I think they are essentially "murder-porn" --- a negative contribution to society.
>

Agree. Those type of games are banned in my house.

[jo...@planet.nl]

Hi,
The 27 lessons are also ported to Win32Forth.
See NeHeLessonsIn4th at https://sites.google.com/site/win324th/sources
In that case SDL is not used.

Jos

On 25 september 2017 12:20:55 UTC+2 m...@iae.nl wrote:

> On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 10:46:07 PM UTC+2, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > Am I like gavino? :)
> >
> > Ok... it is NOW. You cannot shoot, but can walk around - russians are very peaceful.
> >

> > http://fforum.winglion.ru/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=3142
> >
> > 600 lines of code (Quark Forth), plus some graphics of course.
>

[Albert van der Horst]

In article <1e1cee78-6053-414c...@googlegroups.com>,

Remember the pie throwing at Bill Gates? That is a first person shooter game.
On my web site you can find the tomato game.
You can throw tomatoes at politicians, if you hit a bad politician, you
get points, if you hit a good politician, points are subtracted.
You can also hit the queen bit that doesn't influence your score.
A pin ball machine also is technically a fps.

So no reason to get Politically Correct about fps games per se.

Groetjes Albert
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

[Rod Pemberton]

On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 02:31:51 -0400
rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Was your first occupation as a grief counselor?
>

Yes (joking), I ended their grief by "pushing" them over their
emotional horizon to their deaths ...

Darn it! Now, Hugh is going to include that in his game too. If you
sacrifice one child to the volcano god, you can save ten. We'll never
hear the end of children screaming as each level has to have more
children than the last. Hugh didn't think this through.


RP
--
If you're upset over excessive use of force by police, leave your
basketball court or football field, go down to your police station and
picket. You can do that peacefully any day of the week without
disrespecting the American flag.

[rickman]

Rod Pemberton wrote on 9/27/2017 7:33 PM:
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 02:31:51 -0400
> rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Was your first occupation as a grief counselor?
>>
>
> Yes (joking), I ended their grief by "pushing" them over their
> emotional horizon to their deaths ...
>
> Darn it! Now, Hugh is going to include that in his game too. If you
> sacrifice one child to the volcano god, you can save ten. We'll never
> hear the end of children screaming as each level has to have more
> children than the last. Hugh didn't think this through.

Be careful what you post. I bet this shows up as a game somewhere soon.
Oregon Volcano.

[dxf...@gmail.com]

Where do you draw the line? The society we
create is the one we will have to live in.

[rickman]

Albert van der Horst wrote on 9/27/2017 2:05 PM:
> In article <1e1cee78-6053-414c...@googlegroups.com>,
> Mark Wills <markwi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, 26 September 2017 19:12:28 UTC+1, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 1:46:07 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
>>>> Am I like gavino? :)
>>>>
>>>> Ok... it is NOW. You cannot shoot, but can walk around - russians are very peaceful.
>>>
>>> I don't like first-person shooter games because I think they are essentially "murder-porn" --- a negative contribution to society.
>>>
>>
>> Agree. Those type of games are banned in my house.
>
> Remember the pie throwing at Bill Gates? That is a first person shooter game.
> On my web site you can find the tomato game.
> You can throw tomatoes at politicians, if you hit a bad politician, you
> get points, if you hit a good politician, points are subtracted.
> You can also hit the queen bit that doesn't influence your score.
> A pin ball machine also is technically a fps.
>
> So no reason to get Politically Correct about fps games per se.

I tried, but the game won't run on 64 bit Windows.

[hughag...@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, September 26, 2017 at 2:05:28 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> вторник, 26 сентября 2017 г., 21:12:28 UTC+3 пользователь hughag...@gmail.com написал:

> > A possibility would be a rescue mission --- I'm not aware of this having been done before.
> > I've only spent 1 minute thinking about this, but here is my idea:
> > You have a school house near a volcano, and the volcano erupts. Your hero's job is to go to the school and organize the children, then lead them to safety.
> > You have to avoid lava, so get to high ground and do some recognizance on where the lava is flowing, so you don't get surprised by having your path blocked.
>
> Walking modelling with jumps (physically correct) is good too.
>
> > If there is a Julian Fondren type of child at the school (sitting in the back eating Elmer's Glue and carving dirty words on his desk with a pocket-knife),
> > it is okay to leave that child behind. Don't jeopardize the others for him.
> > The lesson of the game is that you can't save everybody. The only way to win the game is to leave some of the children behind to die.
> > Trying to save all of them will result in losing all of them --- failure!
>
> Perhaps I can send to them a big Russian bear to get them to the safe place. Bears are less tends to listen dirty words...

Well, I gave some more thought to the game design:
Your school-house is besieged by large poisonous worms. The curl up into a 'C' shape, so they are called C-worms.
The C-worms are bloated and slow, but if you touch them the poison will cause you to begin hallucinating that you are nimble and fast.
The hero's first decision is if he should go to high-ground and do some recognizance, or go straight to the school-house.
When the hero gets to the school-house, the first person he meets is School Marm Elizabeth.
She insists that she should be given 100% credit for the rescue, and says that she won't allow a rescue at all unless she gets full credit.
These students speak up:
Julien: "School Marm Elizabeth knows all! Um! Um! Um! School Marm Elizabeth knows all! Um! Um! Um!..."
Rick: "You're mentally ill! Hee! Hee! Hee! Mentally Eel!"
Alex: "You're a fuck-nugget!"
All three students have a tinfoil star pasted to their foreheads because they are School Marm Elizabeth's "bestest" students.
We also have students Anton and Bernd who have already embraced the C-worms and begun hallucinating.
They insist that the only way to escape the C-worms is to first accept the C-worms totally in your heart.
If you do this, then you will become nimble and fast enough to escape the C-worms.
School Marm Elizabeth, if you allow her to go along with the rescue, gives her sycophant students idiotic advice, such as:
"All the C-worms are homophobic, so act gay to scare them away!"
There are also intelligent students in the school who want to escape the C-worms. Many of them only speak Russian though, so nobody can understand them.
Ultimately, you can't rescue all of the students, but some of them have to be left behind...

The hero can use his "physically correct jumps" to nimbly leap over the C-worms. The students however, have to be led around the C-worms.

> > Your Quark Forth is derived from SP-Forth. I would be interested in it if source-code is available.
> > Do you have English documentation?
>
> Im sure 99% of activity after publishing sources for Quark will concentrated around critics and attempts to make it ANS-compatible. At least previous requests were around this. Calls for some practical usage were lost completely. Now I have a couple of practical users and a team around me - they just use Quark and happy enough with it. I see no reasons to hide Quark, but simple try to avoid a huge pile of garbage from loosers.

If you provide me with Quark Forth source-code, I will implement quotations that access the parent function's local variables.
Then the Forth-200x enthusiasts will hurl an even bigger pile of garbage at you!
There is really no better way to make them hate you!
The "practical users" should appreciate the quotations though, because this allows for general-purpose data-structures.

[rickman]

I'm ready to do my part. I think this whole thing proves that either Hugh
is mentally ill or is a world class comedian. Amazing!

Interesting that Hugh insists that some students can't be rescued and must
be left behind. I wonder what a shrink would say about that? What would
the Russian LGBT network say about some of the events in this game?

Has Hugh been licking the toads again?

[Ilya Tarasov]

среда, 27 сентября 2017 г., 8:22:00 UTC+3 пользователь Rod Pemberton написал:

> On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 13:46:05 -0700 (PDT)
> Ilya Tarasov <ilya74....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > - russians are very peaceful.
> >
>
> Was that exceptionally dark sarcasm? ...
>
> (I.e., history, both recent and past, would seem to disagree with you,
> e.g., on the order of many tens of millions of dead people under Stalin,
> or unlawful confiscation of foreign territory by Russia using military
> force under Putin.)
>

Wow! Another victim of hysterical russophoby? :) Ok...

1. Stalin's tens millions are fake, don't proven by official documents. Indeed, there are HUGE casualities of Soviet civilians during the WWII (including russuans, ukrainian, belorussians etc), but from the propaganda point of view Hitler's crimes were silently represented as Stalin's crimes. This is the cause of contempt from us for those who believe in this fake. Deaths of our people are not an object for trade in anti-russian propaganda. Hollywood production about comissars, shooting almost every russian soldier around for 'communists inspiration', don't work here - it is just an evidence of hatred.

Btw, Stalin is not a real name, in reality he is Dzhugashvili (Georgia), so send your complains to Georgia (not US state, but land at Caucasus).

2. Georgia, 2008. By US propaganda: russian agression.

In reality: extremely pro-american president Mikhail Saakashvili start an anti-Russian company. The source of conflict: strong cultural and economical links between Russia and Georgian regions at the border. After USSR end, an Osetia region appears to be divided between Russia (North Osetia) and Georgia (South Osetia), with strong rejection from South Osetia (and other border regions) to the new anti-Russian politics. To prevent conflicts, peacekeepers under UN mandate were located between South Osetia and Georgia.

In Aug 2008, Georgia launch an attack on Russian peacekeepers and a massive artillery and rocket strike on Tskhinvali, South Osetia regional capital, with over 1400 civilian casualities.

The true story from 12-years old girl from Tskhinvali was stopped at Fox News - true is not welcomed, if don't provide a reason to blame Russia.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUbeshzD_WM

In the next 5 days, Georgian troops were kicked out from South Osetia by Russian forces, with no bombing or conquering Georgia. Unlike USA, isn't it?

3. Ukraine, 2014. By US propaganda: russian agression and confiscation of foreign territory.

In reality: Ukraine has a deep conflict between west/central part (mostly agricultural) and east part (industrial/mining). In addition, east regions were added to Ukraine in 1921, after 1917's Socialist Revolution, in the order of making Ukraine more suitable for ideas or proletary revolution. More, in 1954 Crimea was added to Ukraine too (no matter for USSR with no actual borders between republics). Historically, Crimea was inhabited by tatars, raides Russia for a long time and becomes Russia vassals in the end of 18 century (with a series of wars between Russia and Osman empire). Many Crimea cities were founded by Russians in 18-th century.

At the end of 2013, anti-government meetings were started in Ukraine, with participation of fascists groups inheriting ideas of German fascist's collaborants in Ukraine. 'Kill Russians' and 'we are not Russians' were a common slogans during a Kiev revolt (very interesting for 'internal, anti-corruption' riots). After president's escaping in 2014, slogans of setting up a terror in eastern regions and Crimea (most pro-russian regions of Ukraine) were declared. The 'train of friendship' with more than 1000 fascists armed hitmans sent to Crimea.

At the next day, Russian forces leaving their official bases in Crimea and took a control on major cities and around Ukrainian military bases. Referendum about joining Russia wins with about 95% votes. Ask yourself, is it 'forced voting', if you are alarmed about possible genocide from the Ukraine? As a cherry on the cake, many Ukrainian soldiers took Russian citizenship (with x3-x5 salary boost compared to Ukraine, I think) :)

Now we have
1. Civil war in Ukraine with massive strikes against pro-russian civilians and promises to hang every Russian and conquer Russia itself. Fascists symbols are not hidden between Ukrainian troops.
2. Saved Crimea with about 2 mln. peoples.
3. Calls to USA for weapon against Russia, destroyed MH17 airjet (claimed: by Russia/pro-Russian forces, but explain me WHY we need this) and many fakes about Russian army presenting (show at least a small regiment).
4. 'Russian agression' in US/Europe media.

Do you understand nobody in Russia believes yout false media? So switch your brain on...

P.S. Should I explain your Syria processes?

[Julian Fondren]

On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 2:16:53 PM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
>
> 1. Stalin's tens millions are fake, don't proven by official documents.

And Stalin never even knew that guy. See? Here's a photo from official
documents where you can clearly see an empty space where that guy
would've been standing.

I feel like I've failed to convey this before already, but let's try
again: today the US media hates Russia for no respectable reason; they
used to love the Soviet Union for no respectable reason. They're scum
with no concern for the truth. When you try to aim an attack against
"everything said by opponents of Russia in the US, ever" you're aiming
at your enemies (the US media) and *their* enemies at the same time.
The result is not effective.

It will just confuse you when *everyone* you try to apply this line
against turns out to agree with one part of your spiel while attacking
other parts of it. This guy agrees that Hitler should get credit for
those massacres but holds the US party line on Syria. That guy agrees
with you on Syria but argues that Stalin should be credited with some
massacres that were credited to Hitler. Which of these is the dupe?
Which is only motivated by 'Russiophobia'?

Anyway, loyalty to the Soviet Union is disloyalty to the Tzar.

[Alex]

On 28-Sep-17 20:55, Julian Fondren wrote:
> On Thursday, September 28, 2017 at 2:16:53 PM UTC-5, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
>> 1. Stalin's tens millions are fake, don't proven by official documents.
> And Stalin never even knew that guy. See? Here's a photo from official
> documents where you can clearly see an empty space where that guy
> would've been standing.

“There was an old bastard named Lenin
Who did two or three million men in.
That's a lot to have done in
But where he did one in
That old bastard Stalin did ten in.”


--
Alex

[Rod Pemberton]

On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 22:59:17 -0400
rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Well, I gave some more thought to the game design:
>

> I'm ready to do my part. I think this whole thing proves that either
> Hugh is mentally ill or is a world class comedian. Amazing!
>

No, he would seem to be a game designer for the horror genre. If he
weaves together a long script or book, he could be a horror author.
Maybe, he found a calling that pays better than a taxi driver.


Rod Pemberton

[Rod Pemberton]

On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 12:16:52 -0700 (PDT)
Ilya Tarasov <ilya74....@gmail.com> wrote:

> 3. Ukraine, 2014. By US propaganda: russian agression and
> confiscation of foreign territory.
>

...

> P.S. Should I explain your Syria processes?

Well, that explanation should be real interesting.

Putin said Syria is a sovereign state. Wasn't Ukraine a sovereign
state? Yes, since prior the fall of the U.S.S.R. in 1991, just like
Russia, Uzbekistan, and Moldova had also declared in 1990. Well, that
was before Putin got involved in Ukraine. Now, Ukraine is 95.5% of a
sovereign state.

"President Putin regards the US attacks on Syria as an aggression
against a sovereign state in violation of international law, and under
a trumped-up pretext at that." - Dmitry Peskov

While that comment was in regards to U.S. actions in Syria, "aggression
against a sovereign state in violation of international law" under a
made up pretext, was exactly what happened in Ukraine due to Putin.

Is he blatantly contradictory or just making it up as he goes along to
please himself? ...

If Putin can arbitrarily decide which country is or isn't a sovereign
state, then surely the U.S. may do so too. Perhaps, we should decide
that only 1/3rd of Russia is a sovereign state.

[rickman]

Rod Pemberton wrote on 9/28/2017 6:49 PM:
> On Wed, 27 Sep 2017 22:59:17 -0400
> rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> Well, I gave some more thought to the game design:
>>
>> I'm ready to do my part. I think this whole thing proves that either
>> Hugh is mentally ill or is a world class comedian. Amazing!
>>
>
> No, he would seem to be a game designer for the horror genre. If he
> weaves together a long script or book, he could be a horror author.
> Maybe, he found a calling that pays better than a taxi driver.

He still would have to get on medication to be able to deal with the world
first.

[Ilya Tarasov]

пятница, 29 сентября 2017 г., 1:50:18 UTC+3 пользователь Rod Pemberton написал:

> On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 12:16:52 -0700 (PDT)
> Ilya Tarasov <ilya74....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > 3. Ukraine, 2014. By US propaganda: russian agression and
> > confiscation of foreign territory.
> >
> ...
>
> > P.S. Should I explain your Syria processes?
>
> Well, that explanation should be real interesting.
>
> Putin said Syria is a sovereign state. Wasn't Ukraine a sovereign
> state? Yes, since prior the fall of the U.S.S.R. in 1991, just like
> Russia, Uzbekistan, and Moldova had also declared in 1990. Well, that
> was before Putin got involved in Ukraine. Now, Ukraine is 95.5% of a
> sovereign state.

Not applicable. Ukraine is a sovereign, but fascist bandits are not legal rulers. Especially when supported by 5 billion dollars 'for democracy' from US. What about Mexican bandits as a 'legal' government with Russian military counselors near Texas border?

> "President Putin regards the US attacks on Syria as an aggression
> against a sovereign state in violation of international law, and under
> a trumped-up pretext at that." - Dmitry Peskov
>
> While that comment was in regards to U.S. actions in Syria, "aggression
> against a sovereign state in violation of international law" under a
> made up pretext, was exactly what happened in Ukraine due to Putin.
>
> Is he blatantly contradictory or just making it up as he goes along to
> please himself? ...

Crimea calls for protection against further genocide. Russia will not wait until 'progressive humanity' will gently ask fascists to stop killing people in Crimea. Since referendum is a kind of democracy procedure, Crimea can choose their state, like Kosovo or Great Britain.

Syria also calls for protection from islamic radicals. While they have an elected president, he can decide who can enter Syrian territory. The problem is very simple - Syria is a good transit point between Saudi and Europe. Dividing Syria by several states and providing gas/blackoil transit is a gold source for those who will control bands in former Syrian territory. For example, if Europe will show a shadow of anti-US behavior, a radical terrorist can 'suddenly' appears near gas pipe... and what about gas prices in this case? And don't tell me about 'bombing schools and hospitals by Russian air force' - many people here in Russia clearly understand goals of Russia and USA in this region. We need a strong stable region to prevent islamic terrorism and establish a partnership with Syria/Egypt/Iran etc. But what need USA? 'Democracy and human rights everywhere'? Don't make me laugh, this looks worse than late Soviet propaganda about 'communism everywhere very soon'. USA wants to rule everywhere and take all for free.

> If Putin can arbitrarily decide which country is or isn't a sovereign
> state, then surely the U.S. may do so too. Perhaps, we should decide
> that only 1/3rd of Russia is a sovereign state.

Ask Russian nuclear forces about this ;) You can choose between 100% of Russia is a sovereign state or 100% of Earth is a radioactive desert. Our military doctrine already contain this point. And don't blame Putin about what he didn't. Study Syrian company and compare it with theoretical anti-Ukraine operation. Several hours to paralize army coordination and several days to take control, with pauses for celebration with real Ukrainian people (not with bandits).

[Mark Wills]

It's not as simple as that. Crimea was transferred to the custody of
Ukraine (by the Soviet Union) in 1954, against the wishes of the *Russian*
population that lived there. Overnight, Crimean Russians became Crimean
Ukranians, and nobody ever consulted them.

Putin simply seized the opportunity to take it back. For geo-political
reasons? Sure. I'm sure it wasn't purely altruistic. But there is a
history there that you're ignoring, either through ignorance or on
purpose.

The population there always considered themselves to be displaced Russians
hence the 95% vote in the referendum there.

[Ilya Tarasov]

пятница, 29 сентября 2017 г., 12:28:32 UTC+3 пользователь Mark Wills написал:

Exactly! I don't want to say Putin is an angel, but he don't leave Crimean population for genocide. Crimea is a main naval base of Russia, with main forces located in Sevastopol. Geopolitical reasons are absolutely clear - soon after entering Ukrainian troops Sevastopol would be opened for NATO forces. So, all reasons - geopolitical, historical and human are pro-Russia. The only result of giving Crimea to Ukraine will be massive genocide, starting from former Russian Navy personnel living in Sevastopol.

Historically, 1954 was not a randomly chosen date. In 1654, Ukrainian cossaks calls for Russia for being Russia vassals instead of being Polish vassals. At that date, a huge oppression from Poland was in place at Ukraine (with no Ukraine as a state, but divided between Crimean Tatars and Poland), based on the religion distinct (Catholic Church in Poland vs Russian Orthodox Church for many cossacks). Just for information, cossacks were not a nation, but a special category of personaly free irregular troopers, used as a border guards by Russia and Poland (against Osman Empire primary). So Ukrainian cossacks were a mix of nations, poor controlled, wild and sometimes raiding Osmans, Poland and Russia. Finally, 1654 was the year of 'Russia-Ukraine reunion' and Ukraine becomes a Russia borderland (literally, Ukraine translates as 'near border'). So in 1954, for the 300 years celebration of reunion, Crimea was moved from Russia Republic jurisdiction to Ukraine Republic by the order of Nikita Khrushchev (originated from Ukraine, btw). No visible after-effects, because it was a madness to imagine USSR breakup in that times - just like randomly chosen border between Russia and Georgia, causing problem with Osetia nation divided between two states. So no borders, no customs... just another city to visit with reports for Crimean administration. So nobody cares in 1954... someone cares in 1991 when Crimea was not returned to Russia (no more reunion, right?) and most were worried in 2014 hearing there are enemies of Ukraine now.

[Rod Pemberton]

On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 17:26:23 -0700 (PDT)
Ilya Tarasov <ilya74....@gmail.com> wrote:

> Crimea calls for protection against further genocide.

I don't see how this is any different from Syria. Rebel groups are
calling for protection against further mass murder by Assad.

> Russia will not wait until 'progressive humanity' will gently ask
> fascists to stop killing people in Crimea.

I don't see how this is any different from the U.S. involvement in
Syria. Assad is a fascist who has been asked to stop killing his
opposition in Syria. Iran is another fascist state being supported by
Russia which is fighting in Syria.

> USA wants to rule everywhere and take all for free.

?

I don't understand that comment. It's rather bizarre to me. Is it
U.S. phobia?

What was the last country conquered by the U.S. which became part of
our territory? I.e., we rule in the U.S. When was the last time the
U.S. conquered a country and pillaged all of it's wealth and
resources? I.e., we haven't taken anything for free. Are you
confusing the U.S. with the former British Empire or Germany? ...

> You can choose between 100% of Russia is a sovereign state or 100% of
> Earth is a radioactive desert.

On that note, if North Korea is not brought under control in a manner
which is acceptable to the U.S., that might just happen. The U.S. will
not hold back from entering North Korea, and may perhaps even use
nuclear weapons on the Russia and China peninsula, if the U.S. deems
North Korea to be a credible nuclear threat. Neither China nor Russia
will dare enter North Korea once the U.S. has entered because they might
spark off World War III - a full-fledged nuclear war. So, why is Russia
placating North Korea? Instead of helping to dismantle North Korea's
nuclear weapons program, Russia is helping North Korea bypass global
sanctions. Don't you fear a nuclear war involving North Korea? North
Korea wants to use it's nuclear weapons on both South Korea and the
U.S. That most likely means part of Russia and China will be
contaminated with nuclear fallout from their attack on South Korea.

[Julian Fondren]

On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 7:10:54 PM UTC-5, Rod Pemberton wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 17:26:23 -0700 (PDT)
> Ilya Tarasov <ilya74....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Crimea calls for protection against further genocide.
>
> I don't see how this is any different from Syria. Rebel groups are
> calling for protection against further mass murder by Assad.

This conversation between "my Russian patriotism extends to defending
the actions of a government formed by my enemies" and "my American
patriotism extends to defending actions that are aimed at genociding,
by proxy, all religious minorities in Syria" is bound to end well.

Try to find some common ground in your positions that an act is moral
if it is opposed by a Nazi.

Or is there anything else you like? Some programming language?

Well one doesn't want to talk about it and the other would rather talk
about C, so I guess not.

[Ilya Tarasov]

воскресенье, 1 октября 2017 г., 3:10:54 UTC+3 пользователь Rod Pemberton написал:

> On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 17:26:23 -0700 (PDT)
> Ilya Tarasov <ilya74....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Crimea calls for protection against further genocide.
>
> I don't see how this is any different from Syria. Rebel groups are
> calling for protection against further mass murder by Assad.
>
> > Russia will not wait until 'progressive humanity' will gently ask
> > fascists to stop killing people in Crimea.
>
> I don't see how this is any different from the U.S. involvement in
> Syria. Assad is a fascist who has been asked to stop killing his
> opposition in Syria. Iran is another fascist state being supported by
> Russia which is fighting in Syria.

I see a huge difference. Crimea was a part of Ukraine since 1991 after USSR breakup, and was returned to Russia only after a serious treatment to Russian population, with definite action planned against peoples. Before, all kinds of partnership with Ukraine were supported, including regular payments for using naval bases by Russian fleet.

All 'murders' of Syria (Serbia, Iran etc) based mainly on the US media fakes. There are many bandits paid by USA in the Syria producing a lot of howling about 'free Syria' and 'thousand killed journalists and orphans'. For information: fascism is a doctrine of race or nation superiority (so Obama's phrase of exclusive american nation is on the way to fascism). Neither Syria nor Iran don't declare Syrian or Iran people are superior comparing with Egyptian, American or France. For some unknown reasons, USA don't laying bombardment on Saudi with many examples of non-democratic procedures and laws.

I can admit USA is so desire to see democracy around the world, so paying huge money for establishing it by weapon. But explain me, why all 'non-democracy' contries are oil/gas fields (Iraq, Iran, Syria) or located near USA geopolitical competitors (Korea near China, Ukraine near Russia). What about Saudi with monarchy.... what about United Kingdom? ;) Where are demands of breaking up UK non-democratic regime and switching to freedom? Where are sanctions against UK? :))

> > USA wants to rule everywhere and take all for free.
>
> ?
>
> I don't understand that comment. It's rather bizarre to me. Is it
> U.S. phobia?

Phobia means fear. Shall I fear USA wants to conquer Russia? No, it will be radioactive desert everywhere on the Earth in this case.

Ok, explain me what is TTIP (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership). Why some voices in Europe really fears it? Hint: what about attempts to judge European companies and even European countries in USA courts in the case of business conflict with USA companies? Isn't it an attempt to 'take all for free'?

> What was the last country conquered by the U.S. which became part of
> our territory? I.e., we rule in the U.S. When was the last time the
> U.S. conquered a country and pillaged all of it's wealth and
> resources? I.e., we haven't taken anything for free. Are you
> confusing the U.S. with the former British Empire or Germany? ...

Do you want a complete list of wars started by USA? It is so huge ...
About conquered territories: how many states was in USA in 1776? Now? As an example: how Texas becomes an USA state? When?

How many Indians lives in current USA territory 200 years ago? How many lives now? (Oh, I'm afraid they had a lack of democracy too... :-/ )

> > You can choose between 100% of Russia is a sovereign state or 100% of
> > Earth is a radioactive desert.
>
> On that note, if North Korea is not brought under control in a manner
> which is acceptable to the U.S., that might just happen. The U.S. will
> not hold back from entering North Korea, and may perhaps even use
> nuclear weapons on the Russia and China peninsula, if the U.S. deems
> North Korea to be a credible nuclear threat. Neither China nor Russia
> will dare enter North Korea once the U.S. has entered because they might
> spark off World War III - a full-fledged nuclear war. So, why is Russia
> placating North Korea? Instead of helping to dismantle North Korea's
> nuclear weapons program, Russia is helping North Korea bypass global
> sanctions. Don't you fear a nuclear war involving North Korea? North
> Korea wants to use it's nuclear weapons on both South Korea and the

The deep reason of dividing Korea was an attempt of USA to create a puppet country near China borders, with military bases treating China territory. I clearly see USA wish to have an 'infantry meat' with strong anti-Chinese position near China. This is a global reason, not an answer to question 'how evil is current North Korean leader'. I have so many examples of fake against Russia and don't believe too much in every USA media news. Of course, I don't think North Korea is a good place to live, and Russia is far far more free. But why USA is so care about North Korea? Let other world help Korean population. At last, let them decide.

> U.S. That most likely means part of Russia and China will be
> contaminated with nuclear fallout from their attack on South Korea.

On South Korea? :) Don't be TOO optimistic - I doubt a single Russian missile will hit South Korea. We are really know who commands here.

A piece of political humor: two pilots of Russian air forces in Syria.
1st: 'I just destroy a terrorists HQ'.
2nd: 'Main HQ you mean?'.
1st: 'Not yet, to destroy main terrorists HQ we need to cross the ocean'

So if someone in USA hopes you can play with Lorea, Ukraine or Baltic contries and howling Russia is bad, you are making very very serious mistake. We will not attack Baltic, Poland or Ukraine, even in the case of provocation with regular weapon. Massive nuclear strike on USA territory, including strategic submarines (16 missiles with 10 warheads each). So no CNN with a pocket of pop-corn watching how Russia fight Europe under USA nuclear bombing.

[Ilya Tarasov]

воскресенье, 1 октября 2017 г., 3:33:15 UTC+3 пользователь Julian Fondren написал:

> On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 7:10:54 PM UTC-5, Rod Pemberton wrote:
> > On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 17:26:23 -0700 (PDT)
> > Ilya Tarasov <ilya74....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Crimea calls for protection against further genocide.
> >
> > I don't see how this is any different from Syria. Rebel groups are
> > calling for protection against further mass murder by Assad.
>
> This conversation between "my Russian patriotism extends to defending
> the actions of a government formed by my enemies" and "my American
> patriotism extends to defending actions that are aimed at genociding,
> by proxy, all religious minorities in Syria" is bound to end well.
>
> Try to find some common ground in your positions that an act is moral
> if it is opposed by a Nazi.

Nazi was Hitler (kill all but Germans) and now are some Ukrainian bandits (kill or enslave all Russians). Nazism is not a toy for creating a base of morale superiority by demand. It is very serious (and Russia with about 20 mln casualities in WWII will not understand this kind of word games). I see an attempts to declare any leader of country with oil fields as Nazi/tyrant/LGBT hater etc, just for taking control on that country. This must be cancelled (a word of wisdom from Russian Nuclear Forces). All countries in the world must have an ability to live as they want - with any religion, LGBT supporting or not and national traditions. No single world ruler deciding who is good and bad. No Russia or China instead of USA - just no single ruler.

> Or is there anything else you like? Some programming language?
>
> Well one doesn't want to talk about it and the other would rather talk
> about C, so I guess not.

I'm tries to talk about Forth at the top of this thread :) But discussion about Russian agressions seems to be more interesting here. Btw, I see a very like atmosphere both for politics and programming. USA is a ruler by default (with Forth Inc), Europe is under control (Ertl with his committee), any attempts to be independent are under attack. Calls to be free and exchange ideas formally supported, but in fact any attempt to propose non-ANS feature going to the trash, just by counter-argument of 'let ANS committee decide'. Can I write my own Forth? All answers 'yes', but it is counting as a toy by default. Note I never declare I want to be a Forth guru or replace all Forth by my Quark. Go to the top and track the thread - I wonder is there any technical question about OpenGL, 3D graphics, functions I use or suggestins about improvements of my program.

[hughag...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 5:51:58 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> I can admit USA is so desire to see democracy around the world, so paying huge money for establishing it by weapon. But explain me, why all 'non-democracy' contries are oil/gas fields (Iraq, Iran, Syria) or located near USA geopolitical competitors (Korea near China, Ukraine near Russia). What about Saudi with monarchy.... what about United Kingdom? ;) Where are demands of breaking up UK non-democratic regime and switching to freedom? Where are sanctions against UK? :))

Good point!

Here is a funny story for you:
A Texan walked into a Russian tavern and said: "Tell me what I have to do to become a real Russian, and I will do it!"
The Russian men told him: "You have to drink an entire bottle of vodka without stopping to take a breath,
you have to shoot a bear, and you have to rape a Chechen woman."
So the Texan drank down an entire bottle of vodka. He staggered around and dropped the empty bottle, but he didn't fall down. The Russians were impressed!
The Texan then announced: "Now for the bear!" He staggered out of the tavern. The Russians said: "We'll never see him again!"
A few days later the Texan returned. He had cuts and bruises all over, and he had broken ribs. He was in rough shape, but he had a big smile on his face!
The Texan said: "Okay, now where is that Chechen woman that you want me to shoot?"

[hughag...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, September 30, 2017 at 6:21:07 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> I'm tries to talk about Forth at the top of this thread :) But discussion about Russian agressions seems to be more interesting here. Btw, I see a very like atmosphere both for politics and programming. USA is a ruler by default (with Forth Inc), Europe is under control (Ertl with his committee), any attempts to be independent are under attack. Calls to be free and exchange ideas formally supported, but in fact any attempt to propose non-ANS feature going to the trash, just by counter-argument of 'let ANS committee decide'. Can I write my own Forth? All answers 'yes', but it is counting as a toy by default. Note I never declare I want to be a Forth guru or replace all Forth by my Quark. Go to the top and track the thread - I wonder is there any technical question about OpenGL, 3D graphics, functions I use or suggestins about improvements of my program.

Good point!

Except that I did give you some good suggestions about improvements to your game --- I designed a great game for you!

[rickman]

Hugh is making Ilya's game great again!

[Ilya Tarasov]

воскресенье, 1 октября 2017 г., 4:34:57 UTC+3 пользователь hughag...@gmail.com написал:

Oh, widely used scenario with different persons/objects.

Btw, something about Chechnya. First of all, this is a not big region in mountains with aggressive highlanders, joined by Russia in the middle of 19th century. Poor life, tribes, baids, bandits etc during all history (with Russia or not).

1990-2000, when Russia was 'good', and leading a way to democracy. Separatists in Chechnya, based on the radical islamism. Tanks, artillery and aviation used by Russia to return control on even major cities. No issues from USA or Europe. Of course, at that time about 85% of profit from russian petroleum export goes to USA, so nothing strange for me.

2000+ (Putin's time). Intensive negotiations between Russia and Chechen clans. Finding a loyal groups in Chechnya, huge investments to economy (including mosque buildings throughout entire region).
https://lenta.ru/news/2008/10/17/mosque/ - news about opening largest mosque in Europe.

Now Chechen special op forces used in Syria to fight against terrorists and protect Russian airbase. There are loyal enough, choosing between war against Russia with smooth perspectives and stable life with federal support and respect to their religion and cultural traditions.

Overall picture from USA media: 'Russia is terrorizing Chechnya'. No comments.

[hughag...@gmail.com]

I'm familiar with Chechnya history. I have read some books on the subject.
I also had a Russian coworker who described what happened during the war, and his account corresponded with what I had read.
I've read books about Russian history too, so I'm reasonably familiar with it.
You shouldn't assume that I'm influenced by USA media --- I haven't owned a television since 1983 --- I don't pay any attention to the media.

C.L.F. is not the place for arguing about Chechnya, or Stalin, or other such fascinating topics.
Just stick to discussing your game...

BTW: Here is a quote:
"In the future there will be fewer but better Russians."
--- Joseph Stalin

And another one:
"Quantity has a quality of its own."
--- Joseph Stalin

[dxf...@gmail.com]

Reportedly young folk get their news from the
from the internet aka Facebook. In the Jobsian
envisioned world of consumerism, who needs truth
or reality?

I don't think I've played a computer game since
1983. That's assuming you don't count fooling
around with Forth as game and unreality :)

[hughag...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 6:08:41 PM UTC-7, dxf...@gmail.com wrote:
> Reportedly young folk get their news from the
> from the internet aka Facebook. In the Jobsian
> envisioned world of consumerism, who needs truth
> or reality?

I get most of my news from the internet --- but these are not media outlets or fake-news websites --- these are real people in foreign countries.
This isn't "the Jobsian envisioned world of consumerism" --- this is the world of international communication between ordinary folk
as (supposedly) envisioned by the original builders of the internet.

> I don't think I've played a computer game since
> 1983. That's assuming you don't count fooling
> around with Forth as game and unreality :)

In the 1980s I played Ms. Pacman and got pretty good at it.

Nowadays the only game I play on the computer is Go, and I play against real people in foreign countries over the internet.
This is one of the best ways to meet people in foreign countries, and be assured that you are meeting intelligent people.
Everybody intelligent plays Go --- I don't care what race or nationality people are --- if they play Go well, then they are worth talking to.
I'm only 6 kyu though --- dans don't necessarily think that I'm worth talking to.

[Mark Wills]

Yes, that's how it was explained to me, also (my wife is Kazakh).
When Khrushchev transferred Crimea to Ukrainian control in 1954, it had
no real effect - it was a political gesture with no real foreseen consequences.

That changed, of course, in 1991.

[dxf...@gmail.com]

On Monday, October 2, 2017 at 2:02:29 PM UTC+11, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Sunday, October 1, 2017 at 6:08:41 PM UTC-7, dxf...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Reportedly young folk get their news from the
> > from the internet aka Facebook. In the Jobsian
> > envisioned world of consumerism, who needs truth
> > or reality?
>
> I get most of my news from the internet --- but these are not media outlets or fake-news websites --- these are real people in foreign countries.
> This isn't "the Jobsian envisioned world of consumerism" --- this is the world of international communication between ordinary folk
> as (supposedly) envisioned by the original builders of the internet.
>

Which just adds another problem - whose reporting
shall you trust? There are plenty of reporters
who, though they may work for a media outlet,
take their job seriously and even find themselves
targeted by authorities and jailed. While you can
get opinions from 'ordinary folk' more often than
not these will be biased and it's the role of
professional journalists to present the views of
all sides.

All OT of course.

[hughag...@gmail.com]

Usually if someone has an ax to grind, this becomes obvious pretty quickly.

School teachers tend to be unbiased and honest.

[rickman]

I've taught school. :)

[hughag...@gmail.com]

piss off!

[Ilya Tarasov]

воскресенье, 1 октября 2017 г., 20:56:30 UTC+3 пользователь hughag...@gmail.com написал:

Of course, I never assume someone's position by default, based on nation or job occupation.

> C.L.F. is not the place for arguing about Chechnya, or Stalin, or other such fascinating topics.

Well, it was not my turn. My little joke about 3D walking engine without shooting was pushed to the 'Russians are agressive because Stalin was bad'. Where is logic here?

> Just stick to discussing your game...
>
> BTW: Here is a quote:
> "In the future there will be fewer but better Russians."
> --- Joseph Stalin
>
> And another one:
> "Quantity has a quality of its own."
> --- Joseph Stalin

There are many quotes from Stalin and other political leaders. All are on their own responsibility and has a little effect on others. It is just history nowadays, not a political course. I can say more - here is a strong point about 'never again'. First, it relates to war of any kind - with 20+ millions killed we don't want to repeat this experience, and will not allow to do this again with Russia. Second, with many acts of revolutionary terror in Stalin's time we also don't want to have it again, so arguments about Russians, influenced by Stalin, are completely miss.

[Rod Pemberton]

On Wed, 4 Oct 2017 19:07:53 -0700 (PDT)
hughag...@gmail.com wrote:

> School teachers tend to be unbiased and honest.

That must be sarcasm.

[Mark Wills]

I thought the same. In my experience, a lot of them (not all) are post-
modernist progressives, if not card-carrying members of the Communist
Party.

Basically: Socialists.

[hughag...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, October 5, 2017 at 4:43:19 AM UTC-7, Mark Wills wrote:
> In my experience, a lot of [teachers] (not all) are post-

> modernist progressives, if not card-carrying members of the Communist
> Party.
>
> Basically: Socialists.

Your experience is presumably in England, which is pretty comparable to America.

I was thinking of Turkey and Argentina when I wrote that teachers tend to be unbiased and honest.
Also, I was thinking of teachers of such subjects as biology and mathematics.
History teachers tend to be over-impressed by the importance of their own country and/or ideology.

[hughag...@gmail.com]

I didn't say that.

You're allowing trolls to get your goat.
Trolls don't have any logic --- they just try to push your buttons so they will get a response out of you.

Your response doesn't necessarily indicate that all Russians are prickly and paranoid --- just you! ;-)

> > Just stick to discussing your game...
> >
> > BTW: Here is a quote:
> > "In the future there will be fewer but better Russians."
> > --- Joseph Stalin
> >
> > And another one:
> > "Quantity has a quality of its own."
> > --- Joseph Stalin
>
> There are many quotes from Stalin and other political leaders. All are on their own responsibility and has a little effect on others. It is just history nowadays, not a political course. I can say more - here is a strong point about 'never again'. First, it relates to war of any kind - with 20+ millions killed we don't want to repeat this experience, and will not allow to do this again with Russia. Second, with many acts of revolutionary terror in Stalin's time we also don't want to have it again, so arguments about Russians, influenced by Stalin, are completely miss.

I wasn't presenting an argument about Russians being influenced by Stalin.
We have a lot of American socialists who are influenced by FDR too.
Most of them have only a vague knowledge of history. They are substituting wishful-thinking for reality.
Arguing with them is a waste of time because they don't care about facts.

You haven't yet commented on my game design. How many games have interesting characters? Not many!
On a related note, have you seen the movie, "Silent Hill"? One of my favorite movies!
I don't play video games, but I have read that that movie was derived from a video game.

[hughag...@gmail.com]

On Wednesday, September 27, 2017 at 4:13:27 AM UTC-7, Mark Wills wrote:
> On Tuesday, 26 September 2017 19:12:28 UTC+1, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Sunday, September 24, 2017 at 1:46:07 PM UTC-7, Ilya Tarasov wrote:
> > > Am I like gavino? :)
> > >
> > > Ok... it is NOW. You cannot shoot, but can walk around - russians are very peaceful.
> >
> > I don't like first-person shooter games because I think they are essentially "murder-porn" --- a negative contribution to society.
> >
>
> Agree. Those type of games are banned in my house.

Information flows up and down through the six layers of the neo-cortex. If it encounters similar information it will resonate.
This is why monkeys chatter. By chattering at the same frequency as the information flow in the neo-cortex, they get resonance.
Some elementary school kids do this on the playground too --- a good indication that they won't amount to anything as adults.
This is also why people like music that is repetitive and has a beat.
When you get a song stuck in your head, it is resonating in your neo-cortex. If you keep repeating it in your head, it will continue to reinforce itself.

This was figured out in the 19th century. Hypnotists would swing a pendulum in front of your eyes and repeat instructions to you.
They were trying to sync up with the information flow in your neo-cortex to achieve resonance.

A lot more is known about the neo-cortex now. Also, computers are available.
Most of the games will pulse the brightness of the screen at the correct frequency and also provide a pounding beat at that same frequency.
This is why people can play these games for hours on end without getting bored. The people are hypnotized.
Slot machines do this too --- getting hypnotized in a casino can cost a person a lot of money!

Hypnotism puts people into a suggestible state. This is why murder-porn is a bad idea.
People can get images of murder stuck in their head, similar to how people get the lyrics of a song stuck in their head.
These hypnotic suggestions can result in post-hypnotic responses later on when the person is bopping around out in the real-world.

Another problem is that a lot of psychotropic drugs are given to teenagers these days to dial down their hyperactive behavior.
These drugs make the subjects calm (as if in a trance), but they also make the subjects vulnerable to hypnotism, and lacking in critical thinking.
If they are exposed to murder-porn while on these drugs they are very likely to become obsessed with thinking about murder.
Rape-porn is also bad --- Ted Bundy described how this led him into becoming a rapist/murderer --- of course, he was a psychopath to start with...

Lets say that 1/10000 of the people who are exposed to violent video games and psychotropic drugs become murderers.
It is a small percentage because the person has to be pretty weak-minded and suggestible to start with, in order to lose control.
Lets also say that there are 100 million people who are exposed to violent video games and psychotropic drugs...

[Ilya Tarasov]

четверг, 5 октября 2017 г., 19:32:16 UTC+3 пользователь hughag...@gmail.com написал:

It is misfeature of conference-based discussions - nobody can see my real emotions :) This is just an ability to demonstrate my position to find and develop a solution in contrast to attempts to find my weak points. Now we clearly see my simple example of 3D scene is bad.. because Stalin was a tyrant and I am from the same country :))) These peoples are trying to teach me? :)