Is win32forth dead ?

[jim]

I've looked around for a forth to do some prototype development with and settled
on win32forth as the only one trying to do a decent development environment
that has some feaures I want to use.
Unfortunately the help system doesnt work at all - the html pages aren't setup
to be browsed and the project section doesnt compile a loaded page (it seems to
need manual re-loading) ... and so on --- IE lots of bugs and stuff that doesnt
work.

This is a shame - its a really good start.
Maybe if everyone stopped developing 23 different forths and just got behind
one to create a really good free forth people might want to use it more?
Not criticising - just suggesting.

If there is a fixed version of the ide a link would be nice. Most of the web pages
for win32forth have out of date information. Perhaps fixing those would save
people some time too.

Anyway - I'll ask john if he'll fund VFX for me (he's hosting my forum) but I'd
really like to have a free forth to use in case others want to help with what I'm
doing.

PS If anyone wants space in the forum for their project let me know and I can
probably do that - (its phpbb3 based)

jim.

[Anton Ertl]

jim <an...@example.com> writes:
>I'd
>really like to have a free forth to use in case others want to help with what I'm
>doing.

In that case Gforth may be your best option; I don't know if it has
the features you want, though.

- anton
--
M. Anton Ertl http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html
comp.lang.forth FAQs: http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/forth/faq/toc.html
New standard: http://www.forth200x.org/forth200x.html
EuroForth 2016: http://www.euroforth.org/ef16/

[jim]

In article <2016Oct2...@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at>,
an...@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at says...

>
> jim <an...@example.com> writes:
> >I'd
> >really like to have a free forth to use in case others want to help with what I'm
> >doing.
>
> In that case Gforth may be your best option; I don't know if it has
> the features you want, though.
>
> - anton

Thanks anton but gforth didn't work for me.

[Albert van der Horst]

In article <MPG.3277f5904...@news.virginmedia.com>,

jim <an...@example.com> wrote:
>
>
>I've looked around for a forth to do some prototype development with and settled
>on win32forth as the only one trying to do a decent development environment
>that has some feaures I want to use.

If you're looking for Eclipse you will not find it. Forthers here have
argued that one can get work done, without things like Eclipse.

>Unfortunately the help system doesnt work at all - the html pages aren't setup
>to be browsed and the project section doesnt compile a loaded page (it seems to
>need manual re-loading) ... and so on --- IE lots of bugs and stuff that doesnt
>work.

So ciforth's facility trumps that. An ugly one file ci86.lina64.html
that you can put anywhere and click from it anywhere. Or open the pdf
and select the PARSING section in the left menu, then SAVE.

>
>This is a shame - its a really good start.
>Maybe if everyone stopped developing 23 different forths and just got behind
>one to create a really good free forth people might want to use it more?
>Not criticising - just suggesting.

I'm one of those 23 different Forth's (ciforth). Having an all dancing and
all singing Forth on Windows is a problem because of the moving target.
I admire the win32forth people for getting that far.
Even the gForth people are complaining that the underlying gcc is too
much of a moving target, and their windows version is based on Cygwin
that is basically a unix compatibility layer on top of Windows.

So there is a niche for simpler Forth's. ciforth assumes the bare minimum
of system facilities, avoids enticing performing enhancing features
and aims for a kernel that works similar on the three main platforms
Linux, Windows and OSX.

I'm trying to get some work done, write a Pascal compiler, a Lisp
compiler, do OCR, do some Euler problems. I can't avoid interaction
with c (GCC) totally because system structures are more and more
undefined (I call "implicitly defined by c include file" undefined.
Those files should be written to specifications, not hacked
together and then used as specifications.)

Oh boy, you get me started! Back to work.

>
>If there is a fixed version of the ide a link would be nice. Most of the web pages
>for win32forth have out of date information. Perhaps fixing those would save
>people some time too.

Another reason to keep it simple. ciforth documentation is meticulously up
to date. If it weren't so small that would be a colossal undertaking.

>
>jim.
--
Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS
Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters.
albert@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst

[Gerry Jackson]

On 24/10/2016 15:18, Albert van der Horst wrote:
> In article<MPG.3277f5904...@news.virginmedia.com>,
> jim<an...@example.com> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >I've looked around for a forth to do some prototype development with and settled
>> >on win32forth as the only one trying to do a decent development environment
>> >that has some feaures I want to use.

> If you're looking for Eclipse you will not find it. Forthers here have
> argued that one can get work done, without things like Eclipse.
>
>> >

Sure you can do without Eclipse but I use Eclipse all the time with my
Forth system running under Windows, it's good. It works just as well
with Gforth, SwiftForth, VFX, Win32 Forth etc. I've got it set up so
that a double click launches the selected Forth system, loads the
application, runs a test program or whatever. It's more than fast
enough. I've no wish to return to the old ways.


--
Gerry

[jim]

> In article <nul57l$ab3$1...@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl>,
> alb...@cherry.spenarnc.xs4all.nl says......


I can only assume you are drunk.
jim

[jim]

In article <nulnt5$bfa$1...@dont-email.me>, ge...@jackson9000.fsnet.co.uk
says...

>
> > If you're looking for Eclipse you will not find it. Forthers here have
> > argued that one can get work done, without things like Eclipse.
> >
> >> >
>
> Sure you can do without Eclipse but I use Eclipse all the time with my
> Forth system running under Windows, it's good. It works just as well
> with Gforth, SwiftForth, VFX, Win32 Forth etc. I've got it set up so
> that a double click launches the selected Forth system, loads the
> application, runs a test program or whatever. It's more than fast
> enough. I've no wish to return to the old ways.

Not me gerry - it was albert van der horst ranting on about eclipse
and a whole bunch of other rubbish.

jim

[lawren...@gmail.com]

On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 11:42:22 PM UTC+13, jim wrote:
> I've looked around for a forth to do some prototype development with

> and settled on win32forth ...

Why still use anything Win32? I thought everybody had moved to 64 bits by now.

[jo...@planet.nl]

Hi,

No problems here for version Win32Forth 6.15.04 under Windows 10.
The Html pages are intended to be used within the help system.
Just start win32forthIDE or Win32for use F1 to get there.

Jos

[jim]

In article <df21f07f-32f7-490f...@googlegroups.com>,
lawren...@gmail.com says...

I don't know if that was tongue in cheek but ...

I did say to prototype - win32forth has enough elements to make what I'm doing
easier than most other free forths. I'd like a full pro environment but I'm reliant on
the generosity of others for that at the moment. (I'm trying to get vfx - a 32 bit
forth?)

then there will be the prototype hardware - have you tried to buy a 64bit FPGA
with easy translation into asic for production? -

Plus the processor design I'm working on is a parallel system on chip - I don't
need 64 bits for that. More is not always better. I'm not even convinced the x86_64
chip is at all reasonable. Certainly not for the PC market.

The hardware design is progressing slowly however - it may take 2 years or a bit
more. Initially I'll work up a system on x86_64 in the meantime when I say
prototype I'm talking about prototping TIL structures, methods and (in forth) words
(datatypes etc) to my own specification.

I could do that in 8 bit if I had to.

[jim]

In article <d78d3411-50ec-43b2...@googlegroups.com>,
jo...@planet.nl says...

>
> Hi,
>
> No problems here for version Win32Forth 6.15.04 under Windows 10.
> The Html pages are intended to be used within the help system.
> Just start win32forthIDE or Win32for use F1 to get there.
>
> Jos

Hi jos

Thanks for the info - I'll look closer at it.then.
It must be something I'm doing wrong.

I'm using win7-64 DEP off on an admin account
I've tried rebuilding and re-installing but I get the same issue
each time.

jim

[rickman]

On 10/25/2016 6:28 AM, jim wrote:
> In article <df21f07f-32f7-490f...@googlegroups.com>,
> lawren...@gmail.com says...
>>
>> On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 11:42:22 PM UTC+13, jim wrote:
>>> I've looked around for a forth to do some prototype development with
>>> and settled on win32forth ...
>>
>> Why still use anything Win32? I thought everybody had moved to 64 bits by now.
>
> I don't know if that was tongue in cheek but ...
>
> I did say to prototype - win32forth has enough elements to make what I'm doing
> easier than most other free forths. I'd like a full pro environment but I'm reliant on
> the generosity of others for that at the moment. (I'm trying to get vfx - a 32 bit
> forth?)
>
> then there will be the prototype hardware - have you tried to buy a 64bit FPGA
> with easy translation into asic for production? -

What is a 64 bit FPGA? FPGAs are word size agnostic. You can have a 63
bit design in an FPGA or a 1 bit design. Converting to an ASIC
shouldn't be an issue in either case.

> Plus the processor design I'm working on is a parallel system on chip - I don't
> need 64 bits for that. More is not always better. I'm not even convinced the x86_64
> chip is at all reasonable. Certainly not for the PC market.
>
> The hardware design is progressing slowly however - it may take 2 years or a bit
> more. Initially I'll work up a system on x86_64 in the meantime when I say
> prototype I'm talking about prototping TIL structures, methods and (in forth) words
> (datatypes etc) to my own specification.
>
> I could do that in 8 bit if I had to.
>

--

Rick C

[rickman]

On 10/25/2016 6:14 AM, jo...@planet.nl wrote:
> Hi,
>
> No problems here for version Win32Forth 6.15.04 under Windows 10.
> The Html pages are intended to be used within the help system.
> Just start win32forthIDE or Win32for use F1 to get there.
>
> Jos

As I've gotten older and the type on the computer screen has gotten
smaller. Really! It did, the resolution went up and the type seems to
be defined (along with everything else) in terms of the pixels, so it is
all very small on my laptop HD resolution screen, even at 17 inches.

So one of my problems using Win32Forth is the small font size. Is there
any way to make that larger without mucking with the controls in
Windows? I've already changed the overall size setting in Windows and
it seems some programs aren't affected by this.

Also, in trying to use the in line help I typed 'help ."' into the main
console while the help window was open and it popped up an error "Read
error in HelpWrd.hdb at 471964". Any ideas?

--

Rick C

[jo...@planet.nl]

Hi Rick,

In Win32FortIDE:
Choose: Options| IDE Preferences | Button: Text Font:

In the Win32Forth console enter:
font NewFont
s" Courier" SetFaceName: NewFont
20 height: NewFont
NewFont SetFont: cmd
Could modified and added to your Win32forUser.cfg
so it would be default

About help:
Does it work when you start
~\win32forth\setup.exe
and run the options: T U R

Jos

On October 25, 2016 17:07:32 UTC+2 rickman wrote:

[jim]

In article <nunru2$jbg$1...@dont-email.me>, gnu...@gmail.com says...

>
> What is a 64 bit FPGA? FPGAs are word size agnostic. You can have a 63
> bit design in an FPGA or a 1 bit design. Converting to an ASIC
> shouldn't be an issue in either case.
>

Not with what I'm doing.
You can have what you want if you're willing to be extremely wasteful
of course - but you can't do this. and no I'm not explaining what "this" is.

[Cecil Bayona]

So why are you here?

--
Cecil - k5nwa

[jim]

Hi Jos

This is the installation error I keep getting - perhaps you can see what's wrong?

--------------------------------------------------------- start ---------------------------------------
running install proceeds until...

Loading FileLister.f : file lister...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
error (-2): {D27CDB6B-AE6D-11CF-96B8-444553540000} Error Loading Type
Library


Hitting return to continue produces this

EXCEPTION 0xC0150011
Version: 6.15.04 Build: 4
Registers:
Eax: 00184B70
Ebx: TOS 00000000 top of stack
Ecx: 00184BF0
Edx: USER 00000070 user area
Edi: 00EF07D0
Esi: IP 00000000 Forth ip
Esp: SP@ 00184B68 stack ptr
Ebp: RP@ 00184BCC rstack ptr
Eip: PC 77A24479 machine ip
Backtracking: [UNKNOWN]+FFF6130B D04B50 D04B50 D04B50
Data stack: 0 C0150011 403F48 0
Primitive "OF-CONTAIN loaded from:
D:\SECURE\WIN32FORTH\SRC\LIB\FCASES.
F at line: 117
Invoking word "0x400000" loaded from: SRC\KERNEL\FKERNEL.F at line: 968
fails at word "0x400000" loaded from: SRC\KERNEL\FKERNEL.F at line: 2968

Press any key to exit...
^
Error(9998): Windows exception trapped


------------------------------------------------------ end --------------------------------------

Hitting return again continues the installation without errors being flagged.
I dont know enough about the system to debug further.

jim

> In article <d78d3411-50ec-43b2...@googlegroups.com>,
jo...@planet.nl says...
>

[rickman]

Ok, then don't expect anyone to have any idea what you are talking
about... :(

--

Rick C

[jo...@planet.nl]

Hi Jim,

I think the following will help:

Disable in file:
~\win32forth\Help\HelpScope.f
the line:
SrcScope: src\lib\FlashControl.f
As follows:
\ SrcScope: src\lib\FlashControl.f
Save it.
Then run in Setup.exe the options T R U

Then you should be able to run the help system.
I wonder if it helps.

Jos

> > In article <d78d3411-50ec-43b2-....com>,
> jo....nl says...

[jim]

Nice one Jos

That seems to have done the trick.
I dont have time to study that right now but
it looks pretty good so far.

thanks

jim



> In article <36101c2c-737f-4b76...@googlegroups.com>,
jo...@planet.nl says...

[jim]

In article <nuqmg3$cdo$2...@dont-email.me>, gnu...@gmail.com says...

No rick - thats the idea.
I can discuss broadly but not markets and end products.
If you read back you'll see how I'm going about things
in broad terms at the moment

[rickman]

On 10/25/2016 12:02 PM, jo...@planet.nl wrote:
> Hi Rick,
>
> In Win32FortIDE:
> Choose: Options| IDE Preferences | Button: Text Font:
>
> In the Win32Forth console enter:
> font NewFont
> s" Courier" SetFaceName: NewFont
> 20 height: NewFont
> NewFont SetFont: cmd
> Could modified and added to your Win32forUser.cfg
> so it would be default
>
> About help:
> Does it work when you start
> ~\win32forth\setup.exe
> and run the options: T U R

I tried the commands to change the font temporarily and it works ok.
The size seems to be discrete with changes at 16 and 20 but not any of
the other values between 12 and 20. 20 is a bit large and 16 is a bit
small, but that's ok. 16 is a lot better on my eyes than is 12. :)
I didn't figure out how to add it to the Win32forUser.cfg file. In the
editor I see a comment that says, "DON'T CHANGE THE REST OF THE FILE
!!!" lol. Do I add the commands above to the end of this file?

I'm not sure about help. I tried what you said to do and tried typing
help ." again. Now it says, "Error(-13): HELP is undefined". I clicked
the menu item Help - Help System, then typed help ." and got the below
error message.

Read error in HelpWrd.hdb at: 471964

--

Rick C

[jo...@planet.nl]

Hi Rick,

Above to the line "DON'T CHANGE THE REST OF THE FILE

Do you see an error when you run in Setup.exe the options T R U

Jos

On October 27, 2016 04:40:10 UTC+2 rickman wrote: