A Forth pet?

[lehs]

What could be a nice symbol of Forth? A lot of modern languages has some kind of symbol, why not Forth?
A robot is perhaps what's come first into mind... What about a nice looking robot with a rose in it's mouth?

[Mark Wills]

What about a picture of a robot kit in pieces that you have to build yourself? :-)

[hughag...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 11:22:48 AM UTC-7, lehs wrote:
> What about a nice looking robot with a rose in it's mouth?

That is the worst symbol possible! A robot that wants to get laid???

[Ilya Tarasov]

воскресенье, 23 апреля 2017 г., 21:22:48 UTC+3 пользователь lehs написал:

> What could be a nice symbol of Forth? A lot of modern languages has some kind of symbol, why not Forth?
> A robot is perhaps what's come first into mind... What about a nice looking robot with a rose in it's mouth?

I like cats! :)

[hughag...@gmail.com]

How about a Siberian bear drinking from a bottle of vodka --- that would be a pretty good mascot!

Cheers!

[Ilya Tarasov]

воскресенье, 23 апреля 2017 г., 23:28:10 UTC+3 пользователь hughag...@gmail.com написал:

Such a stereotype!!! Why only one bottle? :D

[rickman]

You mean something like this?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/ec/4b/05/ec4b05f65e70e6ea7b0bf998d80a2427.jpg

--

Rick C

[Ilya Tarasov]

понедельник, 24 апреля 2017 г., 0:16:07 UTC+3 пользователь rickman написал:

This is better :)

https://www.google.ru/search?q=%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%B4%D1%8C+%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%BA%D0%B0+%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B9%D0%BA%D0%B0&newwindow=1&rlz=1C1TEUA_enRU504RU504&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiBmIOTyrvTAhXoKJoKHX9ODC0Q_AUIBigB&biw=1920&bih=974#imgrc=Hjrlsifz92EqGM:

[rickman]

I don't know exactly why, but that one make me laugh out loud. Maybe it
was the body language, or maybe the balalaika. Do bears in Russia play
the balalaika? Here they just play harmonicas.

--

Rick C

[hughag...@gmail.com]

Okay, we will give our bear two bottles --- one bottle of vodka to represent Russia and one bottle of whiskey to represent America --- an international bear!

Also, we will give the bear a t-shirt that says: "Cheers!" This is to represent Elizabeth Rather who always signs off her posts that way.

Also, we will give the bear some trousers --- I have always been quite disturbed by Winnie-the-Pooh who only wears a t-shirt but no pants --- the Forth bear definitely wears pants!

[lehs]

What about a teddy bear with a baseball cap with the text : NOOP ;

[Lars Brinkhoff]

> What could be a nice symbol of Forth? A lot of modern languages has
> some kind of symbol, why not Forth?

Swap, the dragon.

https://www.forth-ev.de/staticpages/images/Drachenpreis/swap-portrait.gif

[rickman]

I'll have to say, that one I like. Maybe rather than a single image for
a logo, multiple choices. There are a lot of good illustrations in
Brodie's book.

--

Rick C

[The Beez]

On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 8:22:48 PM UTC+2, lehs wrote:
> What could be a nice symbol of Forth? A lot of modern languages has some kind of symbol, why not Forth?
> A robot is perhaps what's come first into mind... What about a nice looking robot with a rose in it's mouth?

No, no, no no. It's an opossum:
- Has lots of antiquated features, that other mammals have discarded years ago;
- Is still able to thrive in modern world;
- Small and fast;
- Easily frightened and subsequently plays dead.

Hans Bezemer

[lehs]

The dragon is OK, but what about copy writes?

[Lars Brinkhoff]

>> Swap, the dragon.
>> https://www.forth-ev.de/staticpages/images/Drachenpreis/swap-portrait.gif
>
> The dragon is OK, but what about copy writes?

This picture, and the others in Starting Forth, are copyrighted by
Forth, Inc.

They will usually permit it to be used, provided there is an attribution
and a reference to www.forth.com. These restrictions may or may not be
acceptable in various circumstances. For example, I tried to use the
picture in the ForthHub organization profile, but there was no place to
put the attribution.

However, I don't think there's any obstacle if someone wero to make a
new picture resembling the Swap Dragon. After all, it's just a cragon
with two heads.

[Ilya Tarasov]

понедельник, 24 апреля 2017 г., 5:05:15 UTC+3 пользователь hughag...@gmail.com написал:

A good addition will be blins - a classical russian pancakes, known from pre-christianity times. Usually blins are stacked :)

https://www.google.ru/search?q=%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%8B&newwindow=1&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwif5_uv8rzTAhWJdpoKHUzkBikQ_AUICCgB&biw=1904&bih=947

[Coos Haak]

Op Mon, 24 Apr 2017 08:33:13 +0200 schreef Lars Brinkhoff:

I have one in my window. Got it from Willem Ouwerkerk some years ago.

groet Coos

[lehs]

I would like something like this:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tbl4ox41y65onqc/4th-logo.gif?dl=0

[lehs]

Stacks of things would also be adequate, for example stacks of tea cups or coffee cups. That could be nice in different colors.

[Cecil Bayona]

Requires a login, thanks but no, everybody wants information on the
users, enough is enough

--
Cecil - k5nwa

[lehs]

Here is the same oic on GitHub:

https://github.com/Lehs/ANS-Forth-libraries/blob/f2f29e1f47ddc61076003d3838c291c4a4c5243a/4th-logo.gif

You don't have to login on DropBox either. You can deny and see the file anyway. But you are right anyway...

[Cecil Bayona]

Thanks, a cranky two headed dragon, not a bad logo.

I'm so sick of data mining that I've started using a browser, that
prevents information on who and where I am, or been. Its nine to go to
Facebook and not get bombarded with add of things I've looked at.

--
Cecil - k5nwa

[Clive Arthur]

On 23/04/2017 19:22, lehs wrote:
> What could be a nice symbol of Forth? A lot of modern languages has some kind of symbol, why not Forth?
> A robot is perhaps what's come first into mind... What about a nice looking robot with a rose in it's mouth?

A page and a monarch.

Cheers
--
Clive

[hughag...@gmail.com]

Instead of the box with the "4" in it, have a stack of blins --- I think it is worthwhile to have something Russian in the picture --- Russian Forthers out-number everybody else put together.

What exactly is the point of having a mascot anyway? Is this another effort to tell the world that all Forth programmers are totally united behind their "leading expert" Elizabeth Rather? If this is true, then the Russians are going to be offended by the use of a Russian icon (blins) because this implies that the Russians are all brown-nosers of Elizabeth Rather --- my experience with the Russians is that they don't consider Forth Inc. and MPE to be their masters --- they are doing their own thing over there.

I think we should go back to the bear --- this is because bears are not sociable animals --- they are not like wolves that hunt in packs nor like ungulates that travel in herds, but they are solitary.

[rickman]

On 4/24/2017 12:19 PM, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> I think we should go back to the bear --- this is because bears are
> not sociable animals --- they are not like wolves that hunt in packs
> nor like ungulates that travel in herds, but they are solitary.

They also kill their young. What sort of image are you trying to project?

Aren't dragons solitary enough for you?

--

Rick C

[Ilya Tarasov]

понедельник, 24 апреля 2017 г., 20:11:42 UTC+3 пользователь rickman написал:

There is another Russian symbol - Zmey Gorynych (don't try to pronounce - 'Fire Snake'). A three-headed flying fire-breathing dragon. If bear will ride this dragon, bear's head will be FOURTH :D

[pbj...@gmail.com]

On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 4:22:48 AM UTC+10, lehs wrote:
> What could be a nice symbol of Forth? A lot of modern languages has some kind of symbol, why not Forth?
> A robot is perhaps what's come first into mind... What about a nice looking robot with a rose in it's mouth?

I use an X-wing fighter logo with "Use the Forth" caption
https://www.dropbox.com/s/t28rno7fz9vnnrn/useforthlogo-s.png?dl=0

[HAA]

Sounds like Forth - a protected species that makes itself at home in yours,
increases in number, stops you from sleeping and refuses to leave.

[Matthias Koch]

> I like cats! :)

Me too ! And giant rabbits ! (o:B

[humptydumpty]

On Sunday, April 23, 2017 at 9:22:48 PM UTC+3, lehs wrote:
> What could be a nice symbol of Forth? A lot of modern languages has some kind of symbol, why not Forth?
> A robot is perhaps what's come first into mind... What about a nice looking robot with a rose in it's mouth?

A four-eyed snail with no shell, but a turbine instead ? :-)

Have a nice day,
hum9

[lehs]

It would be nice to see a sketch of that.

[humptydumpty]

See a prototype here :)
http://file-post.net/en/fp9/d1/1493307794_313446743_120/?id=7LPFoGQPWrfS

:-))

--
hum9

[lehs]

I though you ment something like this:

https://github.com/Lehs/ANS-Forth-libraries/blob/master/turbosnail.gif

[humptydumpty]

More an air-cushioned vehicle, a hovercraft like.
Apparently a snail, a hovercraft in disguise! :-))

--
hum9

[rickman]

Is a snail really the sort of image to project for a computer language?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo_(film)

Is being the fastest snail a goal to be pursued by anyone but a snail?

--

Rick C

[Cecil Bayona]

Nice

--
Cecil - k5nwa

[lehs]

It's just a combination of Google pictures. Ment to show the idea.

[Cecil Bayona]

On 4/27/2017 1:59 PM, lehs wrote:
> It's just a combination of Google pictures. Ment to show the idea.
>

Not 100% sure that a snail would be a welcomed symbol by most because
that it usually represent something slow. In truth Forth even at it's
slowest was not that slow.

One attribute not appreciated is the improved speed in developing
software, a combination of bottom up coding and testing and it's
philosophy of having small words well tested used to build an
application vocabulary, That philosophy is the jet engine.

--
Cecil - k5nwa

[lehs]

A snail is the real challenge, I agree, but a mascot don't have to be excessively clear.

About the UNIX Tux:

Tux was originally designed as a submission for a Linux logo contest. Three such competitions took place; Tux won none of them. This is why Tux is formally known as the Linux mascot and not the logo.[6] Tux was created[7] by Larry Ewing using the first publicly released[8] version (0.54) of GIMP, a free software graphics package.
...
According to Jeff Ayers, Linus Torvalds had a "fixation for flightless, fat waterfowl" and Torvalds claims to have contracted "penguinitis" after being gently nibbled by a penguin: "Penguinitis makes you stay awake at nights just thinking about penguins and feeling great love towards them."[10] Torvalds' supposed illness is a joke, but he really was bitten by a little penguin on a visit to the National Zoo & Aquarium, Canberra, Australia.[11] Torvalds was looking for something fun and sympathetic to associate with Linux, and a slightly fat penguin sitting down after having had a great meal perfectly fit the bill.[12]

In an interview Linus commented on the penguin bite:

I've been to Australia several times, these days mostly for Linux.Conf.Au. But my first trip—and the one when I was bitten by a ferocious fairy penguin: you really should keep those things locked up!—was in 93 or so, talking about Linux for the Australian Unix Users Group.[13] (Wikipedia)

[Rod Pemberton]

On Sun, 23 Apr 2017 11:22:46 -0700 (PDT)
lehs <skydda...@gmail.com> wrote:

> What could be a nice symbol of Forth? A lot of modern languages has
> some kind of symbol, why not Forth? A robot is perhaps what's come
> first into mind... What about a nice looking robot with a rose in
> it's mouth?

Duh, a squirrel. It's so obvious ...

They're cute. Imagine a stylized cartoon squirrel with a flowing mane,
like a horse or a lion, sitting on it's haunches while munching a nut.

They're small. They're ubiquitous. They're dexterous. They're
flexible. They're acrobatic. That describes Forth as well, correct?

They're smart. They're curious. They're creative. They're determined.
That describes most, or at least a few, Forth programmers, yes?

They also go forth and bury nuts. Their chirps sound like they're
already saying "Forth."

What isn't there to love about a squirrel? They're most likely to
inherit the earth.

You also can't rhyme some negative or swear word with "squirrel" to
make an insult about Forth, either. E.g., punk or bunk etc with
"chipmunk". Well, you might be able to rhyme something with squirrel
if you're a skilled rapper. Apparently, Eminem rhymes words with
"orange" all the time just to prove it can be done.


Rod Pemberton
--
All it takes for humanity to conquer the world's toughest problems
is to hope, to believe, to share, and to do, in cooperation.

[Cecil Bayona]

And they are undecisive, no wonder so many get flattened while crossing
the road. But they are cute. In my front yard I have two large Oak
trees, there is a bunch of squirrels that call that home, as I have bird
feeders underneath those tree, they help themselves to the bird feed all
the time, I put some raw peanuts just for them by the feeders.

--
Cecil - k5nwa

[jim.bra...@ieee.org]

Philips semiconductor once had a video chip manual with the cover being a humanoid robot riding a jet engine. Was 3D and not dark like Tron, which used a "mobile sculpture" representation of Forth memory. E.g., have the jet engine consuming the mobile sculpture stack code and spitting out who knows what.

[Mark Wills]

Boom. Rod nailed it. Squirrel.

[JUERGEN]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 4:09:13 AM UTC+1, Mark Wills wrote:
> Boom. Rod nailed it. Squirrel.

Squirrel is very nice, in the UK reflects how the red (Forth) is taken over by the gray(other) version, BUT difficult to stand on my desk ...

May I just add the option of the kangaroo. Very different - like Forth, Jumps rather than runs, different type of animal, not many left, stands nicely on my desk, doing a jumping robot like one can only be done in Forth ...
Reflects some CLF activity https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwif4dPNh8nTAhVFXhQKHZoJCikQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DWCcLMNcWZOc&psig=AFQjCNEb3eHvV5ON3JgL8KfWgua_3vHMKA&ust=1493534461486988

[lehs]

A squirrel would be perfect, but which squirrel? In my opinion it should be just a cool squirrel without a self-important or didactic style:

https://neveradullbling.files.wordpress.com/2015/07/wpid-68747470733a2f2f776562746f6f6c666565642e66696c65732e776f726470726573732e636f6d2f323031322f30342f637574652d737175697272656c2d6c312e6a7067.jpg

Many forthers can't understand why not everybody likes Forth and we tends to be excessively assertive.

[hughag...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 12:38:31 AM UTC-7, lehs wrote:
> A squirrel would be perfect, but which squirrel? In my opinion it should be just a cool squirrel without a self-important or didactic style:

You don't want "a self-important or didactic style" --- well, that leaves out Alex McDonald, Julien Fondren, Rudy Velthuis, etc..

> Many forthers can't understand why not everybody likes Forth and we tends to be excessively assertive.

Maybe Forthers are too squirrelly to be taken seriously --- erratic behavior, lack of a plan, indecision, attention-span measured in milliseconds, etc. --- you could hire Gavino to be your mascot; he could wear a squirrel costume and jump around on the street corner waving a sign at the passing cars: "Get Squirrelly! Learn ANS-Forth!" (he's a multi-millionaire though, so you couldn't afford him).

I think the squirrel would be the perfect mascot for the Forth-200x committee, as their goal seems to be collecting nuts...

[Julian Fondren]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 8:03:40 AM UTC-5, hughag...@gmail.com wrote:
> You don't want "a self-important or didactic style" --- well, that leaves out Alex McDonald, Julien Fondren, Rudy Velthuis, etc..

...

> I think the squirrel would be the perfect mascot for the Forth-200x committee, as their goal seems to be collecting nuts...

Let's all take a moment to appreciate it that it is *Hugh* who is
saying such things.

This is why I don't bother with software filtering of people who are
merely unpleasant, and not actually spamming or posting malicious
links. Wetware filtering works well enough and it still gives you an
occasional laugh.

On topic, not all languages have mascots (or good mascots -- can you
even remember the details of that black/white/red arrow-thing with
arms that Sun came up with for Java?), but many of them have at least
have some kind of icon or picture or animal that suggests the
language, which people reach for when they want to easily associate
something with the language. I'd analyze languages as falling into
these categories:

* imageless: Forth, C, JavaScript

If you want to suggest that something is related to any of these, the
best you can do is have a little bit of code. FORTH LOVE IF HONK THEN

* self-representing: Lua, Python, Ruby

As represented by: the moon (lua), a python (Python), a ruby (Ruby)

Although these each don't just randomly have any kind of moon or any
kind of scene involving rubies. Lua's moon is very distinctive.

And rather than that arrow-thing, Java is usually suggested by a cup
of coffee.

* random: Go, Perl, PHP

Go has a blue hamster drawn by Rob Pike's wife or something. Perl has
a Camel that O'Reilly liked for a book cover. PHP has an elephant of
all things.


Although I place Forth as imageless, the number 4 is popular. So is
the swap dragon -- I was suprised when it wasn't the first answer in
this thread. Forth Inc has satellite dishes and MPE has that robot
sculpture, but I feel like these are more about the respective
companies than about the language.

The original swap dragon looks a bit like a chicken to me...
https://twitter.com/CrazyinRussia/status/844547794912337920

Personally I'd like some kind of space ship. I imagine some
early-space enterprise mandating a lingua franca for all programming
on a space craft, to better permit a single person to be able to
understand, dig into, and troubleshoot every single component (at
least until he bolts on some third-party thrusters). Forth can go low,
go high, go 'safe' while leaving an access panel protected only
by thumb screws. The only real-world weakness when compared to other
languages is a lack of investment, which is solved neatly by
investment.

Space also connects all users of Forth. Some of them have actually
gone into space. Others (see previous paragraph) have their heads at
least that far into the clouds.

[hughag...@gmail.com]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 7:36:27 AM UTC-7, Julian Fondren wrote:
> PHP has an elephant of
> all things.

Birdie, birdie, in the sky
Why'd you drop that in my eye?
I'm not sad, I won't cry
I'm just glad, elephants can't fly

So, here is my new suggestion for the Forth mascot --- a pigeon! --- not likely to go extinct despite people's fondest wishes, and has a tendency to poop in your eye!

[lehs]

Charles Moore and Forth Inc and other can be proud over their participation in the space programs, but certainly also other languages has being used in space. All the time emphasizing on such things isn't the best strategy to spread Forth among programmers. To explain the advantages of Forth is important but it shouldn't be pointed out anytime anyone sees a Forth mascot. A mascot is psychological, it shouldn't create resistance from an attitude, it should just be there as a mark associated vid the idea of Forth.

It isn't at all necessary with a mascot, but a good one doesn't doesn't harm at all but welcome new forthers. I think.

[Julian Fondren]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 10:49:43 AM UTC-5, lehs wrote:
>
> Charles Moore and Forth Inc and other can be proud over their participation in the space programs, but certainly also other languages has being used in space. All the time emphasizing on such things isn't the best strategy to spread Forth among programmers. To explain the advantages of Forth is important but it shouldn't be pointed out anytime anyone sees a Forth mascot. A mascot is psychological, it shouldn't create resistance from an attitude, it should just be there as a mark associated vid the idea of Forth.
>
> It isn't at all necessary with a mascot, but a good one doesn't doesn't harm at all but welcome new forthers. I think.

Yes, I agree. 'Harm' is bad, after all. If you say that Forth is
actually better than other languages, then you'll offend people who
don't yet know Forth, and they'll reply by resentfully sticking to
whatever they're currently using. It is much better to avoid saying
that Forth has any advantages at all. It is merely a single color of
the rainbow, a single item on the menu, pick whatever is to your taste
and don't worry about what your fellow chooses.

This reminds me of a development in the Perl community. At one time
perl.com had a 'Perl versus the world' section in which it argued that
programmers should use Perl instead of e.g. Tcl, for a list of reasons.
At one time Tom Christiansen was prominent - and he was caustic, he
insulted people, he was kind of a jerk in his arguments. Perl evolved
past this period, and today that 'versus' page is long gone, there's
nobody like that Tom guy around, and there's nobody who says that Perl
particularly good, and when people produce any kind of material trying
to promote the language, it's always something like Perl6's butterfly
logo, designed to appeal to young girls. Enough people have praised
that last decision that I can no longer find that "young girl"
explanation easily, but I did quickly find on https://perl6.org/about/
this text: "Camelia as the logo for Perl 6 and perl6.org is not
negotiable."

Naturally, after this change of tone, Perl's popularity...

huh.

Well I guess it's in a death spiral.

That's not quite what I was expecting.

There's probably no possible explanation for that.

[Matthias Koch]

> Duh, a squirrel. It's so obvious ...

Yes, a squirrel fits nicely. I love the idea !

After some thought, a racoon also came to my mind,
but this is already the Minix mascot.

Matthias

[Howerd]

Hi All,

How about a Pushmi-pullyu?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmp-ITOI0-I
If even speaks a dialect of Camel...
This works for me on so many levels ;-)

Cheers,
Howerd