Call for New Standard: Postfix Expression for programming language translation a.k.a. Super-Forth

[Liang Ng]

Call for New Standard: Postfix Expression for programming language translation a.k.a. Super-Forth

My first thought of this post was how comp.lang.forth would react to it.

Would it be World War III, judging from how emotional some posters become when reminiscing prior standard committee meetings DECADES old?

Yet, I believe there is a real need.

PFE is my proposed abbreviation for Postfix Expression, as a replacement for Reverse Polish Notation, to me an Anglo Saxon term invented in a racist era, just because they could not spell a Polish name.

One of the reasons I propose this standard is that while I am working on a grant application to develop a WebGL simulation for collision detection with computer algebra systems in Python SymPy and LISP Maxima, it immediately involves JavaScript, PHP, Python and Forth's old buddy LISP from the same era.

One of the paragraphs I wrote in the grant application reads:

-- As we shall demonstrate with our Hybrid Time Simulation system, the RPN shell is “one small step for a program but one giant leap for mankind”. An RPN shell is almost trivial to implement using any existing programming language. One can find many examples using Internet search keyword “rpn <insert programming language>”. RPN shell becomes “a giant leap for mankind” when literally millions of open source programs, already running independently on the Internet today, are connected together to form a large and complex interconnected system via RPN shell.


So I suppose in the future, there will be a need for projects involving multiple programming languages, requiring a common intermediary script, where PFE is an ideal solution.

(I shall post this part first. More later ....)

[Liang Ng]

Calling out to our friends in Southampton, England ...

I happened to attend Tim Berners-Lee honorary doctoral inaugural lecture in 1996 at the University of Southampton.

It would take me another 2 decades to discover the significance of graph theory, unifying data (HTML, WWW) and code (reverse polish notation), where another fellow resident of Southampton has made significant contribution in.

I am just wondering if our friends in Southampton would be interested in making this Postfix Expression (a.k.a.) Super-Forth Standard (PFES) happen -- imagine at a grander scale than the JavaScript or XML committee ...

[Wolfgang Allinger]

On 10 Mar 18 at group /comp/lang/forth in article 287d9fab-c6a1-47e2...@googlegroups.com

<lsn...@gmail.com> (Liang Ng) wrote:

> PFE is my proposed abbreviation for Postfix Expression, as a replacement for
> Reverse Polish Notation, to me an Anglo Saxon term invented in a racist era,
> just because they could not spell a Polish name.

Complete bullshit, this notation got it's name RPN after it's inventor,
the Polish logician Jan Lukasiewicz 1924, just to honor his nationality.

Sometime called Lukasiewicz notation, but Ln would be mixed with ln.

So forget your idiotic racist bashing.


Saludos (an alle Vernünftigen, Rest sh. sig)
Wolfgang

--
Ich bin in Paraguay lebender Trollallergiker :) reply Adresse gesetzt!
Ich diskutiere zukünftig weniger mit Idioten, denn sie ziehen mich auf
ihr Niveau herunter und schlagen mich dort mit ihrer Erfahrung! :p
(lt. alter usenet Weisheit) iPod, iPhone, iPad, iTunes, iRak, iDiot

[Liang Ng]

On Sunday, 11 March 2018 18:33:14 UTC+8, Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
> Complete bullshit, this notation got it's name RPN after it's inventor,
> the Polish logician Jan Lukasiewicz 1924, just to honor his nationality.
>
> Sometime called Lukasiewicz notation, but Ln would be mixed with ln.
>
> So forget your idiotic racist bashing.

Source?

[Alex]

On 11-Mar-18 01:13, Liang Ng wrote:
> Call for New Standard: Postfix Expression for programming language
> translation a.k.a. Super-Forth
>
> My first thought of this post was how comp.lang.forth would react to
> it.
>
> Would it be World War III, judging from how emotional some posters
> become when reminiscing prior standard committee meetings DECADES
> old?

What a drama queen you are.

>
> Yet, I believe there is a real need.

Can you demonstrate this need?

>
> PFE is my proposed abbreviation for Postfix Expression, as a

PFE means something else in the Forth community. http://pfe.sourceforge.net/

> replacement for Reverse Polish Notation, to me an Anglo Saxon term
> invented in a racist era, just because they could not spell a Polish
> name.

More dramatic fainting. It was Polish Notation first in the 1920s btw;
reverse PN arrived in the 1950s.

>
> One of the reasons I propose this standard is that while I am working

There are a limited number of ways to get a standard built and accepted.
One can standardise an existing thing (a technique successfully
demonstrated by the IETF); one can extend or modify an existing
technology (the DMTF's RedFish which provides a new interface using JSON
and OData to interface with existing tools) or one can propose a
completely new standard for something that doesn't exist (and here I
can't think of a single decent example that was successful).

Which model are you proposing, and what is the goal of the standard?
What problems does it fix? Why would anyone use it?

> on a grant application to develop a WebGL simulation for collision
> detection with computer algebra systems

I don't understand this.

> in Python SymPy and LISP
> Maxima, it immediately involves JavaScript, PHP, Python and Forth's
> old buddy LISP from the same era.
>
> One of the paragraphs I wrote in the grant application reads:
>
> -- As we shall demonstrate with our Hybrid Time Simulation system,
> the RPN shell is “one small step for a program but one giant leap for
> mankind”. An RPN shell is almost trivial to implement using any
> existing programming language. One can find many examples using
> Internet search keyword “rpn <insert programming language>”. RPN
> shell becomes “a giant leap for mankind” when literally millions of
> open source programs, already running independently on the Internet
> today, are connected together to form a large and complex
> interconnected system via RPN shell.
>
>
> So I suppose in the future, there will be a need for projects
> involving multiple programming languages, requiring a common
> intermediary script, where PFE is an ideal solution.

I don't see how that follows.

>
> (I shall post this part first. More later ....)
>

Good luck with the application; from the selected abstract, I suspect
you will need quite a bit of it.

--
Alex

[jpit...@gmail.com]

I am sorry that you do not have access to Wikipedia or google where you live https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_Polish_notation

[Alex]

On 11-Mar-18 01:47, Liang Ng wrote:
> imagine at a grander scale than the JavaScript or XML committee

Some folks have odd ideas about standards and committees.

There were never more than 11 members of the XML working group at any
given time, and for quite a good bit of its work, a lot less than that.

ISO/IEC JTC 1/SC 22 that validated ECMAscript (note that JavaScript is
an implementation of ECMAscript and not a standard) has 20 members.

The Forth 200x committee has 11 members.

So to be grander than any of these, the SuperForth committee would need
21+ members. What purpose this would serve is beyond me.

--
Alex

[Liang Ng]

1) A politically incorrect answer:

Ancestors of non-English would either collaborated or fought the English throughout history , nevertheless resulting in English being the global language of choice today.

Programming languages just evolved at a much faster pace, and eventually one Universal programming language will triumph.


2) Please survey some teenagers -- if they would prefer to learn one Universal programming language or many as they do today.

[Rod Pemberton]

On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 13:22:46 +0000
Alex <al...@rivadpm.com> wrote:

> On 11-Mar-18 01:47, Liang Ng wrote:

> > imagine at a grander scale than the JavaScript or XML committee
>
> Some folks have odd ideas about standards and committees.

You've been attempting to troll Hugh for a month now. Give up. He's
been quiet.


Rod Pemberton
--
feedback loop: Russian aggression -> World complains -> Russian
paranoia -> Russian threats -> repeat

[Wolfgang Allinger]

On 11 Mar 18 at group /comp/lang/forth in article p83e36$bn8$8...@gioia.aioe.org

<NoE...@trraxvfeqa.prg> (Rod Pemberton) wrote:

> You've been attempting to troll Hugh for a month now. Give up. He's
> been quiet.

Very good news to read :)

[Alex]

On 11-Mar-18 13:59, Liang Ng wrote:


> Programming languages just evolved at a much faster pace, and
> eventually one Universal programming language will triumph

What a dull & grey time you foresee. But it's complete nonsense, so I
won't worry.

>
>
> 2) Please survey some teenagers -- if they would prefer to learn one
> Universal programming language or many as they do today.
>

It is my experience very few wish to go to bed at the appropriate time.
As to programming languages I point you at this line;

We find that professional developers learn and forget languages
throughout their careers, and that as a result, age has little to do
with language choice.

from the paper here; http://sns.cs.princeton.edu/docs/asr-oopsla13.pdf

Section 9 is where you want to start if tl;dr


--
Alex

[hughag...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 10:57:47 AM UTC-7, Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
> On 11 Mar 18 at group /comp/lang/forth in article p83e36$bn8$8...@gioia.aioe.org
> <NoE...@trraxvfeqa.prg> (Rod Pemberton) wrote:
>
> > You've been attempting to troll Hugh for a month now. Give up. He's
> > been quiet.
>
> Very good news to read :)

You and Rod Pemberton are both nasty little trolls --- attacking me in a thread that I'm not in.

I posted some Forth code in this thread earlier today:
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.lang.forth/9CThNEkqLrw

You have never posted any Forth code on comp.lang.forth --- you are just brown-nosing the Forth-200x committee --- you aren't capable of writing Forth code.

[dxf...@gmail.com]

On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 9:33:14 PM UTC+11, Wolfgang Allinger wrote:
> On 10 Mar 18 at group /comp/lang/forth in article 287d9fab-c6a1-47e2...@googlegroups.com
> <lsn...@gmail.com> (Liang Ng) wrote:
>
> > PFE is my proposed abbreviation for Postfix Expression, as a replacement for
> > Reverse Polish Notation, to me an Anglo Saxon term invented in a racist era,
> > just because they could not spell a Polish name.
>
> Complete bullshit, this notation got it's name RPN after it's inventor,
> the Polish logician Jan Lukasiewicz 1924, just to honor his nationality.
>
> Sometime called Lukasiewicz notation, but Ln would be mixed with ln.

According to Wikipedia, Lukasiewicz proposed a
prefix notation aka Polish notation. In contrast
RPN (Burks et al) took the opposite approach
hence 'reverse'. At best RPN was clumsy naming,
at worst insulting.

[Liang Ng]

Any Polish here?

We should survey Polish first person perspective on such names.

Incidentally, the Hungarian notation is also racist.

If PFE is not a suitable acronym, we may use PFEX for Postfix Expression.

I like the EX for similarity to REGEX.

Or PostFEX.

[Rod Pemberton]

On Sun, 11 Mar 2018 11:41:31 -0700 (PDT)
hughag...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Sunday, March 11, 2018 at 10:57:47 AM UTC-7, Wolfgang Allinger
> wrote:
> > On 11 Mar 18 at group /comp/lang/forth in article
> > p83e36$bn8$8...@gioia.aioe.org <NoE...@trraxvfeqa.prg> (Rod
> > Pemberton) wrote:

> > > You've been attempting to troll Hugh for a month now. Give up.
> > > He's been quiet.
> >
> > Very good news to read :)
>
> You and Rod Pemberton are both nasty little trolls --- attacking me
> in a thread that I'm not in.

What? Learn to read Hugh!

Alex McDonald has been trolling you repeatedly for a month on your
criticisms of the Forth Standards committee, e.g., comments like:

> You have never posted any Forth code on comp.lang.forth --- you are
> just brown-nosing the Forth-200x committee --- you aren't capable of
> writing Forth code.

...

[Paul Rubin]

Liang Ng <lsn...@gmail.com> writes:
> Incidentally, the Hungarian notation is also racist.

What about Polish spaces? Latin squares? The Russian Peasant
algorithm? The Chinese remainder theorem? You can't make this stuff
up.

[Liang Ng]

Don't the Liberals want political correctness?

Are you a Trumpster?

[john]

In article <87fu55c...@nightsong.com>, no.e...@nospam.invalid says...

It is a noticable fact of nature that eventually all snowflakes melt.


--

john

=========================
http://johntech.co.uk
=========================

[Mark Wills]

When they're not kicked squarely in the balls first, yes.

[Wolfgang Allinger]

On 11 Mar 18 at group /comp/lang/forth in article c281fee1-aebb-495d...@googlegroups.com

I've earned my living

-as a freelancing engineer in HW&SW development for more than 20yrs with
writing Forth on many application for a lot of different customers (eg.
NASA, Ariane Space, Boeing, NDT, GE Medical just to name same big ones
even you lousy troll may know) and

-NOT for trolling in clf.

I presented some of my work including code, speaking at the UofR (3
different years). My largest project contained 16 RTX2001 in one
application. Some of my ideas and code landed on a comet :p

And this work buyed me 5 of my 8 PORSCHE but no MERCEDES, sorry Janis :)
so Forth works good for me but God not for Janis :)

Taste this:

--- you are just brown-nosing clf --- you aren't capable of renting a
MERCEDES and never ever a PORSCHE


;p ;p ;p

PS. I know, that Janis owned a 356.