How workable is Vista?
rickman
about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
So the question is, is Vista ready for prime time? I have heard
nothing but bad about it and I know that a lot of software vendors
have yet to support it... at least the last time I looked. Are the
rumors true of Vista being a PITA or just plain incompatible? Is it
time to switch to Linux?
What experiences have people had with Vista?
Rick
EventHelix.com
Vista is OK performance wise but it is incompatible with older
programs like Visual C++ 6.0.
You do need at least 2 GB of RAM for decent performance.
--
http://www.EventHelix.com/EventStudio
Sequence diagram based embedded systems design tool
Joerg
> I have been looking to buy a new computer for a bit and I had just
> about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
> them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
> after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
> to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
> Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
>
http://www.dell.com/dellhasanswers
Quote: "After June 18th you have the option to purchase Windows Vista
Business or Windows Vista Ultimate with a downgrade service to Windows
XP Professional."
So it seems not all is lost.
> So the question is, is Vista ready for prime time? I have heard
> nothing but bad about it and I know that a lot of software vendors
> have yet to support it... at least the last time I looked. Are the
> rumors true of Vista being a PITA or just plain incompatible? Is it
> time to switch to Linux?
>
> What experiences have people had with Vista?
>
I don't have any because I opted not to use Vista. Heard and read about
too many incompatibilities WRT legacy software, DOS full-screen and
such. Also, I've heard of people who bought a stash of XP licenses just
in case.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
"gmail" domain blocked because of excessive spam.
Use another domain or send PM.
Tomás Ó hÉilidhe
I do a bit of "computer doctor" on the side for extra dosh. I hate
hate hate hate hate hate when I'm presented with a Vista machine. It's
an absolute hog of an operating system, ridiculously slow and full of
all sorts of "features" that hinder your every attempt to productively
use a computer. A lot of applications that worked perfectly with XP
simply won't work with Vista, even simple applications like Collins
English Dictionary. Plus it's slow, real slow. Plus Control Panel has
been given a disgusting overhaul so that even the most mentally
retarded people can use it, which is detrimental to the power user.
Avoid Vista like the plague. If you can't get XP on the machine, then
just get Vista and then do one of the following:
1) Pay extra for the super duper version of Vista, because with
the super duper version, Microsoft will give you a free license for
Windows XP if you decide to downgrade.
2) If you're "honest": Get normal Vista, then go out and buy XP,
wipe the machine and install XP.
3) If you're "dishonest": Get normal Vista, then download the
corporate version of XP via bittorrent. The corporate version works
with a universal CD key, and works perfectly without restriction.
I got a laptop with Vista on it because the price was right. Two
guesses which of the above options I chose.
As for Linux... well at the moment I've got Kubuntu and Backtrack
installed. Linux is still a long way away from replacing Windows, and
both sadly and frankly, I don't think a free operating system can ever
replace a paid-for one. Don't get me wrong, there's bucketloads of
fantastic free software out there, OpenVPN for example, but when it
comes to a great big operating system, you need to pay the lads.
A friend of mine switched to Mac a couple of years ago and never
looked back. He was a power user of Windows, knew his way around the
system registry, did some programming with the Win32 API, but he still
hasn't looked back even though he had to start from scratch with Mac.
I'd switch to Mac myself but I'm just a bit... eh... set in my ways. I
tried to switch to Linux but I jut got pissed off with the bugs and
lack of functionality and now I've pretty much given it the boot.
There's projects running at the moment where people are trying to get
Mac OS to run on normal IBM-compatible machines that normally run
Windows. I might give it a go at some stage... but for now I'm more
than happy with my heavily customised installation of XP.
Joerg
> On Jun 16, 8:53 pm, rickman <gnu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I have been looking to buy a new computer for a bit and I had just
>> about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
>> them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
>> after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
>> to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
>> Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
>>
>> So the question is, is Vista ready for prime time? I have heard
>> nothing but bad about it and I know that a lot of software vendors
>> have yet to support it... at least the last time I looked. Are the
>> rumors true of Vista being a PITA or just plain incompatible? Is it
>> time to switch to Linux?
>>
>> What experiences have people had with Vista?
>>
>> Rick
>
> Vista is OK performance wise but it is incompatible with older
> programs like Visual C++ 6.0.
>
Here's a list that I found:
> You do need at least 2 GB of RAM for decent performance.
>
That's reason number xx why I don't have Vista. It's pathetic to need so
much RAM.
Tim Wescott
Linux makes a fine 2nd OS -- I have one on my "traveling" PC, which gets
used for presentations, email, numerical analysis with Scilab, and
playing solitaire.
It helps that I do documents on OpenOffice, which works just fine and
dandy under Linux.
For everything else, I use XP (and I hope that Microsoft feels pressured
into continuing to maintain it; they've withdrawn it from the market
twice already to my knowledge, and have been forced to put it back).
Personally, I think that if Microsoft continues to jam Vista down the
collective throats of the world you'll see a lot more interest in Linux
and in Mackintosh. I doubt that they've gotten quite that stupid yet,
though.
--
Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com
Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
Vladimir Vassilevsky
rickman wrote:
> I have been looking to buy a new computer for a bit and I had just
> about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
> them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
> after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
> to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
> Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
> So the question is, is Vista ready for prime time?
Wait 2-3 years till MS will release several service packs for Vista.
> I have heard
> nothing but bad about it and I know that a lot of software vendors
> have yet to support it... at least the last time I looked. Are the
> rumors true of Vista being a PITA or just plain incompatible?
1. Vista is incompatible with many older softwares, such as VDSP 4.0,
for example.
2. Vista is incompatible with many older drivers, such as dllportio. So
forget about the legacy hardware and the JTAG simulation on the parallel
port.
3. Vista is slower then XP regardless of the amount of memory. With all
bells and whistles switched off, the speed of the execution is somewhat
30% slower on the dual core machine.
> Is it
> time to switch to Linux?
Only if you are enjoying working on computer instead of using a computer
for work.
> What experiences have people had with Vista?
Vista works, however it doesn't offer any advantages over XP.
Vladimir Vassilevsky
DSP and Mixed Signal Design Consultant
http://www.abvolt.com
Jim Granville
> Avoid Vista like the plague. If you can't get XP on the machine, then
> just get Vista and then do one of the following:
> 1) Pay extra for the super duper version of Vista, because with
> the super duper version, Microsoft will give you a free license for
> Windows XP if you decide to downgrade.
> 2) If you're "honest": Get normal Vista, then go out and buy XP,
> wipe the machine and install XP.
> 3) If you're "dishonest": Get normal Vista, then download the
> corporate version of XP via bittorrent. The corporate version works
> with a universal CD key, and works perfectly without restriction.
Not quite.
I recall some legal cases, where Microsoft was forced to sell older
OS versions (as a downgrade) to avoid obsoleting perfectly good
hardware, and so adding to the global waste pile.
In other words, if you have paid for a newer Microsoft OS, you
have a legal right to 'old-grade' (it is NOT really a down-grade:) )
to an equialent OS. You do NOT have to pay Microsoft twice, to get
ONE operating system.
That is likely also the legal framework, behind the note Joerg found :
Quote: "After June 18th you have the option to purchase Windows Vista
Business or Windows Vista Ultimate with a downgrade (sic) service to
Windows XP Professional."
-jg
rickman
wrote:
> rickman wrote:
> > I have been looking to buy a new computer for a bit and I had just
> > about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
> > them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
> > after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
> > to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
> > Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
>
> http://www.dell.com/dellhasanswers
>
> Quote: "After June 18th you have the option to purchase Windows Vista
> Business or Windows Vista Ultimate with a downgrade service to Windows
> XP Professional."
>
> So it seems not all is lost.
But that means you have to pay for Vista *and* you have to pay for
XP. They call this *Vista Bonus*... talk about a marketing scheme!
> > So the question is, is Vista ready for prime time? I have heard
> > nothing but bad about it and I know that a lot of software vendors
> > have yet to support it... at least the last time I looked. Are the
> > rumors true of Vista being a PITA or just plain incompatible? Is it
> > time to switch to Linux?
>
> > What experiences have people had with Vista?
>
> I don't have any because I opted not to use Vista. Heard and read about
> too many incompatibilities WRT legacy software, DOS full-screen and
> such. Also, I've heard of people who bought a stash of XP licenses just
> in case.
I have a problem with paying Microsoft twice for an OS on the same
machine. This really is putting me off the whole idea of buying a
windows amachine at all. We'll see if it can actually push me over
the edge to Linux though.
Rick
rickman
wrote:
> That is likely also the legal framework, behind the note Joerg found :
>
> Quote: "After June 18th you have the option to purchase Windows Vista
> Business or Windows Vista Ultimate with a downgrade (sic) service to
> Windows XP Professional."
No, this is what they call "Vista Bonus" which is the most expensive
version. In essence, you are paying for both versions of the OS.
Rick
rickman
>
> I'd switch to Mac myself but I'm just a bit... eh... set in my ways. I
> tried to switch to Linux but I jut got pissed off with the bugs and
> lack of functionality and now I've pretty much given it the boot.
> There's projects running at the moment where people are trying to get
> Mac OS to run on normal IBM-compatible machines that normally run
> Windows. I might give it a go at some stage... but for now I'm more
> than happy with my heavily customised installation of XP.
I would be happy to consider the Mac if it would run the software that
I use. But the FGPA vendors don't support it and the PCB layout
software I like doesn't run on it... at least I haven't heard that it
does. Will the Mac run PC software like Linux does using something
like WINE?
Rick
MC
It's not *that* different, anyhow! It's XP with some architectural improvements. There's nothing to be afraid of.
MC
I think Vista-bashing has become a fad. If you know anything about OS architecture, read up on it. You'll see that Vista corrects some of the main problems with XP, including inability to prioritize I/O.
One thing I really like is that Vista is ready to respond to mouse clicks almost the moment it boots up; I don't have to wait for all the startup applications to finish before I can get responses to anything I do. XP was notorious for sitting around 2 or 3 minutes with little things still starting up, not letting you do anything. With Vista, the startup apps may take the same 2 or 3 minutes but you can go ahead and get started doing your work.
Vista has a really major security improvement. Even when running as administrator, you have to give explicit permission to change the system configuration. This is like "sudo" in UNIX. It protects you from malware. Contrary to those Mac ads, it is NOT a pest. If you see those prompts every day, something is wrong. I see them about once a month.
I do not think Vista should be judged by how well it runs the software of 10 years ago. Programs written for Windows NT, 2000, and XP all run just fine. Programs written for Windows 95 require compatibility mode. Unfortunately, lots of programmers have been writing Windows 95 software and selling it to XP users.
Of course, the embedded systems community is atavistic. There are things in Microchip MPLAB, for instance, that aren't fully compatible with Windows 95 file naming, much less anything later.
JeffM
>Will the Mac run PC software like Linux does
>using something like WINE?
larwe
> I use. But the FGPA vendors don't support it and the PCB layout
> software I like doesn't run on it... at least I haven't heard that it
> does. Will the Mac run PC software like Linux does using something
Sorta. You can dual-boot Intel Macs to Windows - but this puts you
back in exactly the same position of needing to acquire a Windows
license. You can also use virtualization software like Parallels
Desktop, but (a) you still need a Windows license, and (b) my
experience at least is that a fair percentage of embedded dev hardware
doesn't work in virtualization. Some does, some doesn't, it's very hit
or miss. Currently I do about 60% of my work on a MacBook in MacOS;
the remainder is split between Linux and WinXP. I was given a free
Vista Professional license by Microsoft, but I haven't got a machine
that's capable of running it, due to missing drivers. Really, I don't
think it's missing drivers, I think it's that none of my machines have
graphics cards that support Vista's DRM requirements, but whatever -
the installer complains and I haven't bothered to go further and see
what happens.
Software vendors are starting to take more notice of MacOS. The usual
route is for the Linux version to be rebuilt as an X11 binary for
MacOS, since that's not much work. Ugly, but serviceable. The next
step is for it to be rebuilt as a native app. EAGLE has taken that
route (yay! V5 is MacOS native!)
BTW you haven't yet mentioned the fact that 60% of the drivers for
embedded dev hardware are unsigned. Vista 32-bit will not by default
allow you to load unsigned drivers (though it is possible to coerce
it). Vista 64-bit will not load unsigned drivers, period.
David Brown
My first-hand experience with Vista is fairly limited - it came with a
laptop I have, and I was not impressed. If I had wanted a toy, I'd have
bought a playstation.
For each generation of windows, MS have been trying to make the OS
easier to use for common tasks. The problem is that it's only *their*
definition of common tasks, and it comes at the expense of making less
common things harder.
People often say that Linux has a steep learning curve compared to
Windows. That's not actually a very accurate picture. It's more
correct to think that Windows has a steep learning curve, but fairly low
offset - it's easy to get into, but hard to do more advanced stuff. And
it's getting steeper all the time. Linux, on the other hand, has a much
flatter learning curve, but a higher offset - once you've got the
basics, you can get a lot further more easily. And the offset and start
curve are getting easier all the time.
> As for Linux... well at the moment I've got Kubuntu and Backtrack
> installed. Linux is still a long way away from replacing Windows, and
> both sadly and frankly, I don't think a free operating system can ever
> replace a paid-for one. Don't get me wrong, there's bucketloads of
> fantastic free software out there, OpenVPN for example, but when it
> comes to a great big operating system, you need to pay the lads.
>
This all depends on your use. For an experienced "power user" on
windows, it's hard to move to Linux - things don't work as you expect.
It takes time to re-learn things. I use XP for my main desktop, because
it is what I am most familiar with - but I have kubuntu on a Virtual Box
machine for when I need something windows can't provide (such as the
occasional application, better networking, or more convenient software
installation). I also use kubuntu on my laptop.
For an everyday user of OpenOffice, FireFox and Thunderbird, the change
is barely noticeably - my wife and kids have no problems using the
kubuntu laptop.
And for server usage, Windows has a very long way to go before it can
come close to the power, flexibility, convenience, manageability and
value for money of Linux.
David Brown
I don't think you are paying for both versions of the OS - you are
paying MS for a single OS license, and you are paying Dell for the
"downgrade service". At least, that's how I interpret the wording.
You can also think of it as a simple price increase - after all, XP is
worth a lot more than Vista.
Clifford Heath
> Will the Mac run PC software like Linux does using something like WINE?
Perfectly well using either Parallels or VMWare.
You still need a Windows license, of course.
Jack
Hi,
by chance have you tried the Codewarrior Suite from Freescale with
Parallels (and/or Bootcamp)? It's is working? and what about the
USBTap and USBtoSerial adapter?
Another thing: some of you is using Altium Designer with a Mac
(through Parallels or Bootcamp)?
Thanks
Bye Jack
larwe
> rickman wrote:
> > Will the Mac run PC software like Linux does using something like WINE?
>
> Perfectly well using either Parallels or VMWare.
For small values of "perfectly" where special hardware is involved.
The MSP430 Windows USB-JTAG drivers, in particular, cause a kernel
panic when you attempt to use such hardware within Parallels or
VMWare.
David Brown
> Notice that although almost everybody is saying Vista is awful, they
> don't agree at all about what's awful about it.
>
There are just so many things to choose from, that's all. People won't
agree on what's the nicest colour - but they'll mostly agree that colour
is nice to have.
> I think Vista-bashing has become a fad. If you know anything about
> OS architecture, read up on it. You'll see that Vista corrects some
> of the main problems with XP, including inability to prioritize I/O.
>
Prioritizing I/O is a good thing (Linux has had it for years), if you
have multiple tasks that are all bottlenecked on I/O speed. It's a
useful feature for servers, but of little use for the average user on a
desktop.
>
> One thing I really like is that Vista is ready to respond to mouse
> clicks almost the moment it boots up; I don't have to wait for all
> the startup applications to finish before I can get responses to
> anything I do. XP was notorious for sitting around 2 or 3 minutes
> with little things still starting up, not letting you do anything.
> With Vista, the startup apps may take the same 2 or 3 minutes but you
> can go ahead and get started doing your work.
>
That's why Bill Gates invented morning coffee!
> Vista has a really major security improvement. Even when running as
> administrator, you have to give explicit permission to change the
> system configuration. This is like "sudo" in UNIX. It protects you
> from malware. Contrary to those Mac ads, it is NOT a pest. If you
> see those prompts every day, something is wrong. I see them about
> once a month.
>
Avoiding Internet Explorer and Outlook Express (and Outlook) is the most
important step to avoiding malware on Windows. The other important
method is to *think* a little about what you are doing. These
techniques work on all versions of Windows (and are even easier on
non-Windows machines :-)
UAC is definitely a step towards avoiding accidental installation of
malware or otherwise seriously messing up your machine, so it's a good
idea (note that "sudo" on *nix is nearly 30 years old - three cheers for
Microsoft's innovation!). I can't really judge whether it is too much
of a pest to be useful in normal usage - since I've only use Vista for
testing purposes, I wanted to install a lot of stuff, and therefore
found UAC a pain. Certainly there is the risk that people will turn it
off just to stop it bugging them - that happens to a great many
firewalls on windows.
> I do not think Vista should be judged by how well it runs the
> software of 10 years ago. Programs written for Windows NT, 2000, and
> XP all run just fine. Programs written for Windows 95 require
> compatibility mode. Unfortunately, lots of programmers have been
> writing Windows 95 software and selling it to XP users.
>
> Of course, the embedded systems community is atavistic. There are
> things in Microchip MPLAB, for instance, that aren't fully compatible
> with Windows 95 file naming, much less anything later.
Welcome to the real world.
For people using a home PC mainly for web and email, cataloguing their
digital photographs, playing music, and some light office apps, they are
faster, safer and cheaper using Linux.
For people using a PC for common business tasks, OpenOffice, FireFox,
and Thunderbird or Evolution on any platform will cover most needs -
Linux or XP are smaller, faster and cheaper than Vista.
For people using a PC for games, XP is currently the best platform.
For people doing more specialised work, compatibility with a range of
software and/or hardware is critical. Whether XP or Linux is the best
choice will depend on the details of the work - but Vista is out.
Vista can and should be judged by how well it runs software that people
need to run, and how well it supports hardware that people need to use.
That includes old programs and old hardware (and new hardware - Vista
has had more than a few problems with lack of drivers for newer hardware).
Freelance Embedded Systems Engineer
Dell will provide a down converter process so that you can get back to XP,
but you would have to do this process yourself. And yes, Microsoft is driving
this termination of XP.
I've been using Vista Business for 3 months on a Lenovo T61 laptop.
Lenovo also provided the XP rollback process, which I haven't attempted.
Under Vista, a number of my old program would not install without complaining
that they are not supported and would be at risk, so I had to update. For example,
Visual Studio 6, Visual Studio .Net 2003, Quickbooks. Even TortoiseCVS has a know
issue under Vista, but I've been using it without problem. I've had no problems
with Open Office, but there was an installation issue with Matlab that I
had to call tech support about. I still have a number of other applications
that I haven't gotten around to installing.
There are a number of things about Vista that I don't like, mainly because
they are changes from Win2K/XP without improvement. For example, searching
for a file or text within a file from Explorer is now a convoluted process
that you need to get retrained to do. And the number of services running
under Vista is easily doubled compared to XP, which is why I got 3Gigs of Ram.
Also unless you are logged in a SysAdm, Vista locks you our of certain folders.
For example, as a non-SysAdm, you can't use the default "work" folder under
c:\Program Files\Matlab.
So yes, it has been a PITA, but it has to be done eventually if you plan
to use Windows for whatever reason (mainly client compatibility issues).
Note: I am running Ubuntu Linux as a guest OS under Vista using VirtualBox
so that I can work with Open Embedded for a Gumstix target. So if you are
buying a new PC, get a lot of RAM and hard disk space if you want to run
dual operating systems. This lets you do your Windows to Linux switch
gradually or use the best from both worlds without having to reboot.
And the tools (VirtualPC, VirtualBox, VmWare), are free or inexpensive.
Tomás Ó hÉilidhe
(Sorry Google has made a balls of quoting today for some reason)
On Jun 17, 6:29 am, "MC" <for.address.l...@www.ai.uga.edu.slash.mc>
wrote:
START QUOTE
> One thing I really like is that Vista is ready to respond to mouse clicks almost the moment it boots up; I don't have to wait for all the startup applications to finish before I can get responses to anything I do. XP was notorious for sitting around 2 or 3 minutes with little things still starting up, not letting you do anything. With Vista, the startup apps may take the same 2 or 3 minutes but you can go ahead and get started doing your work.
END QUOTE
I pay regular visits to msconfig to keep my machine fresh. I've an
Intel Core Duo 1.83 GHz. My desktop appears quickly and I can start
clicking straight away. If your XP is polluted then Yes it can take a
couple of minutes. But if it's lean and clean, it's quick as
lightening.
START QUOTE
> Vista has a really major security improvement. Even when running as administrator, you have to give explicit permission to change the system configuration. This is like "sudo" in UNIX. It protects you from malware. Contrary to those Mac ads, it is NOT a pest. If you see those prompts every day, something is wrong. I see them about once a month.
END QUOTE
I hate that stuff. For example, under Linux, I'm always logged in as
root. I have full control over what executables files I run, and I'm
not thick, so I don't have a problem.
And yes I do see those prompts every day, must just be the kind of
user I am.
David Brown
Using the closed source version of Virtual Box (it's closed source, but
free for most practical uses), you can pass USB devices through to the
guest system without the host having to have drivers. I've not tried
Virtual Box on the Mac, but I had no problems using a windows-only USB
dongle from a Virtual Box windows guest on a Linux host.
David Brown
> START QUOTE
>> Vista has a really major security improvement. Even when running
>> as administrator, you have to give explicit permission to change
>> the system configuration. This is like "sudo" in UNIX. It
>> protects you from malware. Contrary to those Mac ads, it is NOT a
>> pest. If you see those prompts every day, something is wrong. I
>> see them about once a month.
> END QUOTE
>
> I hate that stuff. For example, under Linux, I'm always logged in as
> root. I have full control over what executables files I run, and I'm
> not thick, so I don't have a problem. And yes I do see those prompts
> every day, must just be the kind of user I am.
On Linux it is *so* easy to mix and match root and normal user work that
it's just plain daft to login as "root" for normal usage. There is "su"
(or "sudo su -") for command lines, kdesudo or gsudo for use on KDE or
Gnome (most gui-controlled stuff that requires root runs these
automatically), and setuid bits for scripts.
If you are using Linux as a server, and most of your work is
administration that requires root privileges, then logging in as root
makes some sense, but even then you are best logging in as a user and
using su (or "sudo su -") on your shell.
If you are working with a desktop, then it's silly to login as root -
it's like removing the door to your house to avoid the minor
inconvenience of opening it.
N1
<t...@lavabit.com> ha detto :
> I
> tried to switch to Linux but I jut got pissed off with the bugs
KUbuntu is an awful Linux distribution. I wouldn't be surprised of bugs and
similar. Try something more serious like Debian or, better for a desktop
PC, Archlinux....you'll never find a bug using the proper repositories.
Anyway, Windows XP sp2 and Windows 2000 sp4 are two great products, there
is no real need for Vista and it should be enough for not use it.
--
Nuno on zx-6r '04 & CRe 250 '99 working in progress...
Say you, say me...say 'na mignotta!
*** www.gladio.org ***
Spehro Pefhany
wrote:
>I have been looking to buy a new computer for a bit and I had just
>about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
>them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
>after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
>to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
>Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
>
>So the question is, is Vista ready for prime time? I have heard
>nothing but bad about it and I know that a lot of software vendors
>have yet to support it... at least the last time I looked. Are the
>rumors true of Vista being a PITA or just plain incompatible? Is it
>time to switch to Linux?
>
>What experiences have people had with Vista?
>
>Rick
It's a royal PITA, especially in the beginning, but workable for most
software I use. You can turn stuff off and make it a lot more like XP
than the default. It needs a bit more RAM than XP for the smme job,
even if you turn off eye candy options, but RAM is dirt cheap these
days.
I suspect, but don't know for sure, that 32-bit Vista is easier to
live with than 64-bit XP for those of us who use a lot of different
bits of software.
I still see random crashes perhaps once a week, that seem to be
graphics related, something I never see with Win2K and XP Pro.
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
DaveN
news:zXH5k.6820$PZ6....@bignews5.bellsouth.net...
> Notice that although almost everybody is saying Vista is awful, they don't
> agree at all about what's awful about it.
>
The unzipping of files is now intolerably slow, OK not the OS but rather an
application running on it, but it's still bundled with the Vista experience.
> I think Vista-bashing has become a fad. If you know anything about OS
> architecture, read up on it. You'll see that Vista corrects some of the
> main problems with XP, including inability to prioritize I/O.
>
I agree I don't like the OS bashing and I really do like XP and Vista a lot,
so credit where it's due.
> One thing I really like is that Vista is ready to respond to mouse clicks
> almost the moment it boots up; I don't have to wait for all the startup
> applications to finish before I can get responses to anything I do. XP
> was notorious for sitting around 2 or 3 minutes with little things still
> starting up, not letting you do anything. With Vista, the startup apps
> may take the same 2 or 3 minutes but you can go ahead and get started
> doing your work.
>
No, I sill have to wait for Vista although it does seem faster than my XP
machine, but then it should be with 4x the RAM.
> Vista has a really major security improvement. Even when running as
> administrator, you have to give explicit permission to change the system
> configuration. This is like "sudo" in UNIX. It protects you from
> malware. Contrary to those Mac ads, it is NOT a pest. If you see those
> prompts every day, something is wrong. I see them about once a month.
>
I see them most days and find them a little frustrating but you quickly get
used to it, so no real bad there.
> I do not think Vista should be judged by how well it runs the software of
> 10 years ago. Programs written for Windows NT, 2000, and XP all run just
> fine. Programs written for Windows 95 require compatibility mode.
> Unfortunately, lots of programmers have been writing Windows 95 software
> and selling it to XP users.
>
> Of course, the embedded systems community is atavistic. There are things
> in Microchip MPLAB, for instance, that aren't fully compatible with
> Windows 95 file naming, much less anything later.
>
I triple boot my machine with Vista, XP and Fedora. Got XP to support some
older apps and Fedora more as a new attempt at getting to grips with Linux.
Don't really use Fedora much though apart from booting in now and again to
get all the latest updates which are certainly much more frequent and larger
in sixe than the XP or Vista updates!
Somebody also mentioned open office, I tried that a year ago and it kinda
looked ok at first, but the more I used it the more inadequate I found it.
I couldn't even create captions and references to those captions in the WP
app so gave up as it made it useless for writing any sort of report.
MSOffice is still way better than anything else I've seen and in my view for
my business is well worth the money.
--
DaveN
Joel
>about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
>them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
>after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
>to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
>Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
>
>So the question is, is Vista ready for prime time? I have heard
>nothing but bad about it and I know that a lot of software vendors
>have yet to support it... at least the last time I looked. Are the
>rumors true of Vista being a PITA or just plain incompatible? Is it
>time to switch to Linux?
>
>What experiences have people had with Vista?
>
>Rick
>
Rick I've run Vista for quite some time and although there are those who
absolutely despise it, if you approach it with an open mind its not nearly
as bad as what you've heard. There are a bunch more "bells and whistles"
to turn off than XP had but Vista is capable of good performance.
Somethings you will like better than XP somethings you will not. There are
some incompatibilities just as their was when XP was new but these are
becoming less and less common. There are few reasons to upgrade to Vista
but also few reasons to go back to XP. It is the future and we'll all have
to get used to it eventually.
Joerg
> On Jun 16, 9:07 pm, Joerg <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net>
> wrote:
>> rickman wrote:
>>> I have been looking to buy a new computer for a bit and I had just
>>> about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
>>> them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
>>> after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
>>> to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
>>> Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
>> http://www.dell.com/dellhasanswers
>>
>> Quote: "After June 18th you have the option to purchase Windows Vista
>> Business or Windows Vista Ultimate with a downgrade service to Windows
>> XP Professional."
>>
>> So it seems not all is lost.
>
> But that means you have to pay for Vista *and* you have to pay for
> XP. They call this *Vista Bonus*... talk about a marketing scheme!
>
Yep, seems they want to milk you for more money.
>
>>> So the question is, is Vista ready for prime time? I have heard
>>> nothing but bad about it and I know that a lot of software vendors
>>> have yet to support it... at least the last time I looked. Are the
>>> rumors true of Vista being a PITA or just plain incompatible? Is it
>>> time to switch to Linux?
>>> What experiences have people had with Vista?
>> I don't have any because I opted not to use Vista. Heard and read about
>> too many incompatibilities WRT legacy software, DOS full-screen and
>> such. Also, I've heard of people who bought a stash of XP licenses just
>> in case.
>
> I have a problem with paying Microsoft twice for an OS on the same
> machine. This really is putting me off the whole idea of buying a
> windows amachine at all. We'll see if it can actually push me over
> the edge to Linux though.
>
May be ok as long as you don't have to do engineering work with it. I
found that some of the software I need doesn't come in Linux versions.
It appears one can still buy XP though:
http://store.purplus.net/miwixpprwofa.html
They also have the cheaper home edition. If this continues places like
Dell might have actually shot themselves into the foot by letting MS
force them to accept Vista. Because potential buyers might be better off
with the local PC shop that can put XP on without a cost penalty. If MS
then curbs the sale of licenses then a gray market will pop up if it
hasn't already.
Rich Webb
>Don't really use Fedora much though apart from booting in now and again to
>get all the latest updates which are certainly much more frequent and larger
>in sixe than the XP or Vista updates!
Fedora is a lot of fun, and relatively cutting edge since it's
intentionally a development/test distro, with new versions every six
months or so. And you're right, one had better have a decent sized pipe
to stay up to date with the various updates. The cost of being a
pioneer, I guess.
For stable releases, but perhaps less glamour, try Gentoo, Mandriva,
Debian, or Centos. For a wilder ride, look around http://distrowatch.org
for some of the lesser known releases.
>Somebody also mentioned open office, I tried that a year ago and it kinda
>looked ok at first, but the more I used it the more inadequate I found it.
>I couldn't even create captions and references to those captions in the WP
>app so gave up as it made it useless for writing any sort of report.
>MSOffice is still way better than anything else I've seen and in my view for
>my business is well worth the money.
Softmaker has a commercial "office suite," available for Windows as well
as Linux, that is a pretty close match for the MS products.
http://www.softmaker.com/english/
But also check out AbiWord http://www.abisource.com/ as a word
processing alternative on Linux (and now, I see they have a Windows
version as well). I still use WordPerfect and AbiWord had the best WP
import among the Linux word processors that I tried.
--
Rich Webb Norfolk, VA
lang...@fonz.dk
wrote:
> rickman wrote:
> > On Jun 16, 10:29 pm, Jim Granville <no.s...@designtools.maps.co.nz>
> > wrote:
> >> That is likely also the legal framework, behind the note Joerg found :
>
> >> Quote: "After June 18th you have the option to purchase Windows Vista
> >> Business or Windows Vista Ultimate with a downgrade (sic) service to
> >> Windows XP Professional."
>
> > No, this is what they call "Vista Bonus" which is the most expensive
> > version. In essence, you are paying for both versions of the OS.
>
> > Rick
>
> I don't think you are paying for both versions of the OS - you are
> paying MS for a single OS license, and you are paying Dell for the
> "downgrade service". At least, that's how I interpret the wording.
>
yes, with Vista ultima and Business you have always had the option to
install XP instead, Dell just added the option that they can do it for
you
for a fee
and afair only ultima and Business can connect to a domain
> You can also think of it as a simple price increase - after all, XP is
> worth a lot more than Vista.
-Lasse
Joerg
> Tomás Ó hÉilidhe wrote:
>>> I have been looking to buy a new computer for a bit and I had just
>>> about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
>>> them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
>>> after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
>>> to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
>>> Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
>>>
>>> nothing but bad about it and I know that a lot of software vendors
>>> have yet to support it... at least the last time I looked. Are the
>>> rumors true of Vista being a PITA or just plain incompatible? Is it
>>> time to switch to Linux?
>>>
>>> What experiences have people had with Vista?
>>
>>
>> hate hate hate hate hate when I'm presented with a Vista machine. It's
>> an absolute hog of an operating system, ridiculously slow and full of
>> all sorts of "features" that hinder your every attempt to productively
>> use a computer. A lot of applications that worked perfectly with XP
>> simply won't work with Vista, even simple applications like Collins
>> English Dictionary. Plus it's slow, real slow. Plus Control Panel has
>> been given a disgusting overhaul so that even the most mentally
>> retarded people can use it, which is detrimental to the power user.
>>
>> Avoid Vista like the plague. If you can't get XP on the machine, then
>> just get Vista and then do one of the following:
>> 1) Pay extra for the super duper version of Vista, because with
>> the super duper version, Microsoft will give you a free license for
>> Windows XP if you decide to downgrade.
>> 2) If you're "honest": Get normal Vista, then go out and buy XP,
>> wipe the machine and install XP.
>> 3) If you're "dishonest": Get normal Vista, then download the
>> corporate version of XP via bittorrent. The corporate version works
>> with a universal CD key, and works perfectly without restriction.
>>
>> guesses which of the above options I chose.
>>
>> As for Linux... well at the moment I've got Kubuntu and Backtrack
>> installed. Linux is still a long way away from replacing Windows, and
>> both sadly and frankly, I don't think a free operating system can ever
>> replace a paid-for one. Don't get me wrong, there's bucketloads of
>> fantastic free software out there, OpenVPN for example, but when it
>> comes to a great big operating system, you need to pay the lads.
>>
>> looked back. He was a power user of Windows, knew his way around the
>> system registry, did some programming with the Win32 API, but he still
>> hasn't looked back even though he had to start from scratch with Mac.
>>
>> I'd switch to Mac myself but I'm just a bit... eh... set in my ways. I
>> tried to switch to Linux but I jut got pissed off with the bugs and
>> lack of functionality and now I've pretty much given it the boot.
>> There's projects running at the moment where people are trying to get
>> Mac OS to run on normal IBM-compatible machines that normally run
>> Windows. I might give it a go at some stage... but for now I'm more
>> than happy with my heavily customised installation of XP.
>
> used for presentations, email, numerical analysis with Scilab, and
> playing solitaire.
>
> It helps that I do documents on OpenOffice, which works just fine and
> dandy under Linux.
>
> For everything else, I use XP (and I hope that Microsoft feels pressured
> into continuing to maintain it; they've withdrawn it from the market
> twice already to my knowledge, and have been forced to put it back).
>
> Personally, I think that if Microsoft continues to jam Vista down the
> collective throats of the world you'll see a lot more interest in Linux
> and in Mackintosh. I doubt that they've gotten quite that stupid yet,
> though.
>
I am not so sure considering their EOL declaration for new XP installs
for end of this month. What I really don't understand is how big players
like Dell could agree to that. It'll hurt them, big time. There may even
be layoffs while the local PC wrench shops will jump for joy. Most of
those won't have any problems "obtaining" XP for their customers while
Dell and such will probably be contractually bound to push Vista.
Joerg
> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:48:48 +0100, "DaveN" <Da...@DaveN.COM> wrote:
>
>
>> Don't really use Fedora much though apart from booting in now and again to
>> get all the latest updates which are certainly much more frequent and larger
>> in sixe than the XP or Vista updates!
>
> Fedora is a lot of fun, and relatively cutting edge since it's
> intentionally a development/test distro, with new versions every six
> months or so. And you're right, one had better have a decent sized pipe
> to stay up to date with the various updates. The cost of being a
> pioneer, I guess.
>
> For stable releases, but perhaps less glamour, try Gentoo, Mandriva,
> Debian, or Centos. For a wilder ride, look around http://distrowatch.org
> for some of the lesser known releases.
>
>> Somebody also mentioned open office, I tried that a year ago and it kinda
>> looked ok at first, but the more I used it the more inadequate I found it.
>> I couldn't even create captions and references to those captions in the WP
>> app so gave up as it made it useless for writing any sort of report.
>> MSOffice is still way better than anything else I've seen and in my view for
>> my business is well worth the money.
>
> Softmaker has a commercial "office suite," available for Windows as well
> as Linux, that is a pretty close match for the MS products.
> http://www.softmaker.com/english/
>
Good price. However, it seems to lack one part of an office suite that
is essential for anyone who has to do their own book keeping: A
database. I could not work without that.
> But also check out AbiWord http://www.abisource.com/ as a word
> processing alternative on Linux (and now, I see they have a Windows
> version as well). I still use WordPerfect and AbiWord had the best WP
> import among the Linux word processors that I tried.
>
--
Joerg
[...]
> BTW you haven't yet mentioned the fact that 60% of the drivers for
> embedded dev hardware are unsigned. Vista 32-bit will not by default
> allow you to load unsigned drivers (though it is possible to coerce
> it). Vista 64-bit will not load unsigned drivers, period.
>
Which begs the question: What were they thinking up there in Redmond?
It's almost like offering a car and telling the cusotmers "Oh, and by
the way, it won't be able to pass smog".
Rich Webb
<notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>Good price. However, it seems to lack one part of an office suite that
>is essential for anyone who has to do their own book keeping: A
>database. I could not work without that.
True that. Fortunately, the OOo database app interoperates pretty well
with the old MS Access databases that I have kicking around.
Guy Macon
The design philosophy behind Vista appears to be to put the
wants and needs of the record producers and movie studios
above those of the user. Do a web search on [ Vists DRM ]
and you will see what I am talking about.
I recently bought a Vista-based laptop and a retail boxed copy
of XP. Turns out that the laptop manufacturer deleted all of
the XP drivers from their website. Doing a websearch for the
drivers turned up page after page of sites that linked to the
now-missing drivers on the manufacturer's website. I finally
found the drivers on the manufacturer's European website.
Without the drivers, I had no Ethernet, wireless networking,
sound or SD card reader, and the display had limited resolution.
I figure that Microsoft pressured them into deleting the XP
drivers to force users to use Vista, and that they won't write
any XP drivers for the next generation of laptops.
--
Guy Macon
<http://www.guymacon.com/>
Tomás Ó hÉilidhe
> and afair only ultima and Business can connect to a domain
Mother of Mercy.
Are you're telling me that normal Vista won't let you go into network
neighbourhood and browse through file shares, printer shares, etc..
If so, that's thoroughly disgusting. If so, I'm now going to start a
hate campaign against Vista.
Paul Carpenter
joelb...@gmail.com says...
> >I have been looking to buy a new computer for a bit and I had just
> >about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
> >them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
> >after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
> >to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
> >Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
> >
> >So the question is, is Vista ready for prime time? I have heard
> >nothing but bad about it and I know that a lot of software vendors
> >have yet to support it... at least the last time I looked. Are the
> >rumors true of Vista being a PITA or just plain incompatible? Is it
> >time to switch to Linux?
> >
> >What experiences have people had with Vista?
> >
> >Rick
> >
>
> Rick I've run Vista for quite some time and although there are those who
> absolutely despise it, if you approach it with an open mind its not nearly
> as bad as what you've heard. There are a bunch more "bells and whistles"
> to turn off than XP had
A rather large value of 'bunch more'..
> but Vista is capable of good performance.
On a MUCH higher spec system, the only true comparison is same
application loaded on identical machines and timed doing the same tasks.
My experience of mine and a VERY small number of my customers, is it is
more awkward to setup as you want. Don't get me started on DRM screw ups.
> Somethings you will like better than XP somethings you will not. There are
Windows Mail (Outlook Express on Vista) is partly improved in message
storage where email folders are actual folders and emails are stored
in seperate files. The importing is a pain from other systems/paackages.
Windows Calendar import from other systems especially using Outlook
WITHOUT a server is a nightmare. Mind you import/export and inability to
import AND export the same formats is a pain between even Micro$oft
products.
> some incompatibilities just as their was when XP was new but these are
> becoming less and less common. There are few reasons to upgrade to Vista
> but also few reasons to go back to XP. It is the future and we'll all have
> to get used to it eventually.
It is yet another pain in the proverbial for things that have to have
10 years plus support, as in a lot of places this means rebuilding and
VERIFYING the outputs match for all stages of projects. That is if you
can still get the package and/or hardware for something bought 5+ years
ago with company buyouts and EOL on product lines.
One of the things I recently worked on for a customer was part of their
contract with their customer which lasts TWENTY years!
For real fun commentary, (you need the sound turned up)
--
Paul Carpenter | pa...@pcserviceselectronics.co.uk
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/> PC Services
<http://www.pcserviceselectronics.co.uk/fonts/> Timing Diagram Font
<http://www.gnuh8.org.uk/> GNU H8 - compiler & Renesas H8/H8S/H8 Tiny
<http://www.badweb.org.uk/> For those web sites you hate
Guy Macon
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit
You cannot join a Windows Vista Home Basic or Windows Vista Home
Premium computer to a domain. You cannot join *any* Windows
Vista computer to a Windows NT 4.0 domain -- even if your NT
server still works fine and your LAN has no connection to the
Internet, you have to upgrade your server.
See [ http://www.winsupersite.com/reviews/winvista_02.asp ]
for a detailed comparison of the fifteen available versions
of Windows Vista (not including server versions based on
Vista):
Windows Vista Starter Edition
Windows Vista Home Basic
Windows Vista Home Basic x64
Windows Vista Home Basic N
Windows Vista Home Basic N x64
Windows Vista Home Premium
Windows Vista Home Premium x64
Windows Vista Business
Windows Vista Business x64
Windows Vista Business N
Windows Vista Business N x64
Windows Vista Enterprise
Windows Vista Enterprise x64
Windows Vista Ultimate
Windows Vista Ultimate x64
David Brown
> On Jun 17, 3:55 pm, langw...@fonz.dk wrote:
>
>> and afair only ultima and Business can connect to a domain
>
>
> Mother of Mercy.
>
> Are you're telling me that normal Vista won't let you go into network
> neighbourhood and browse through file shares, printer shares, etc..
>
You don't need a domain for that sort of thing. A "domain" basically
means you have a centralised server for authentication - if you are
happy with creating user accounts and setting up passwords individually
on machines as needed, then you don't need to use a domain.
Jim Granville
> I triple boot my machine with Vista, XP and Fedora. Got XP to support some
> older apps and Fedora more as a new attempt at getting to grips with Linux.
Isn't there something a little wrong with this picture, where we have
a world where THREE operating systems is not unusual ?
With all the man-centuries that supposedly goes into writing these
systems, and the many millions of users, losing time on the bugs and
fluff, surely 'better usability coverage' should be expected ?
-jg
Jim Granville
> rickman wrote:
>
>> On Jun 16, 9:07 pm, Joerg <notthisjoerg...@removethispacbell.net>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> rickman wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have been looking to buy a new computer for a bit and I had just
>>>> about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
>>>> them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
>>>> after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
>>>> to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
>>>> Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
>>>
>>> http://www.dell.com/dellhasanswers
>>>
>>> Quote: "After June 18th you have the option to purchase Windows Vista
>>> Business or Windows Vista Ultimate with a downgrade service to Windows
>>> XP Professional."
>>>
>>> So it seems not all is lost.
>>
>>
>> But that means you have to pay for Vista *and* you have to pay for
>> XP. They call this *Vista Bonus*... talk about a marketing scheme!
>>
>
> Yep, seems they want to milk you for more money.
This in a news feed:
Seems the situation is 'fluid' with Microsoft trying to bully everyone
over to vista. (no surprise there). Of course, a large customer
push-back, will have Microsoft's PR and Spin department into overdrive.
It also confirms that legally you can downgrade without having to pay
extra.
News:
[The latest news comes from Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, reacting to
criticism at a recent news conference, who said "XP will hit an
end-of-life. We have announced one. If customer feedback varies, we can
always wake up smarter, but right now, we have a plan for end-of-life
for new XP shipments."
As of now the June 30 deadline stands, but PC makers may be encouraging
Microsoft to get "smarter" by taking the rare step of openly combating
Microsoft's direction that vendors move from XP to Vista. HP, Dell, and
Lenovo have all said they will downgrade operating systems on new
machines from Vista to XP at customer request and will continue to do so
until 2009 (specific ending dates vary).
Note that no one's breaking the law here. Legally, anyone with a volume
license or an OEM license for Vista can downgrade to XP without having
to pay extra for the OS. The only exception is for those who purchased
"full packaged product (FPP)" editions, which do not include downgrade
rights, though Windows Vista Professional and Ultimate editions do.
Whether XP drivers are available is another issue.
If asked, many companies will include an XP disc with your order, but
Dell is installing XP at the factory as well. Cnet also offers some
additional helpful advice on obtaining XP if you're buying a Vista
machine. ]
Joerg
But from the statement on Dell's site it seems they only offer downgrade
if you first "upgrade" to a more expensive version of Vista. Makes
absolutely no sense to me and it could cost them revenue. One could
almost bet it will cost them revenue.
Paul E. Bennett
> I have been looking to buy a new computer for a bit and I had just
> about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
> them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
> after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
> to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
> Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
>
> So the question is, is Vista ready for prime time? I have heard
> nothing but bad about it and I know that a lot of software vendors
> have yet to support it... at least the last time I looked. Are the
> rumors true of Vista being a PITA or just plain incompatible? Is it
> time to switch to Linux?
>
> What experiences have people had with Vista?
>
> Rick
When I bought my new Dell Inspiron, Vista was on it (I had a little play
first, didn't like it at all) but that didn't last as I wiped the disk
and installed Mandriva Linux. I have enjoyed using the Open Office
tools, The Gimp, Konqueror and Mozilla Firefox, VuTrax PCB design and
layout software and Vfx Forth (for Linux) on this system. I use AVidemux
for video editing and Audacity for editing sound.
I am sure I will find a decent mechanical 3D CAD system at some point.
This and some PERT based project management software would complete the
set nicely.
--
********************************************************************
Paul E. Bennett...............<email://Paul_E....@topmail.co.uk>
Forth based HIDECS Consultancy
Mob: +44 (0)7811-639972
Tel: +44 (0)1235-811095
Going Forth Safely ..... EBA. www.electric-boat-association.org.uk..
********************************************************************
JeffM
>>I triple boot my machine with Vista, XP and Fedora. Got XP to support some
>>older apps and Fedora more as a new attempt at getting to grips with Linux.
>>
>Isn't there something a little wrong with this picture, where we have
>a world where THREE operating systems is not unusual ?
>
>With all the man-centuries that supposedly goes into writing these
>systems, and the many millions of users, losing time on the bugs and
>fluff, surely 'better usability coverage' should be expected ?
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:PTPuLs5pOU8J:www.winehq.org/site/contributing+donations
8-)
Rich Webb
<Paul_E....@topmail.co.uk> wrote:
>This and some PERT based project management software would complete the
>set nicely.
You might give OpenProj a try. I mostly use it for really simple Gantt
stuff but it does have possibilities for more advanced users (= most of
the rest of the universe).
https://sourceforge.net/projects/openproj/
robert...@yahoo.com
wrote:
> larwe wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > BTW you haven't yet mentioned the fact that 60% of the drivers for
> > embedded dev hardware are unsigned. Vista 32-bit will not by default
> > allow you to load unsigned drivers (though it is possible to coerce
> > it). Vista 64-bit will not load unsigned drivers, period.
>
> Which begs the question: What were they thinking up there in Redmond?
>
> It's almost like offering a car and telling the cusotmers "Oh, and by
> the way, it won't be able to pass smog".
For Vista/32 it's little more than a strong warning that you're
installing an unsigned driver and that bad things may happen. For
Vista/64, the driver must be signed, but you can sign it yourself, and
then just have the user install your certificate. There are, of
course, some warnings when the user installs you cert. Of course MS
recommends that you do not install unsigned drivers, and that you do
not install anyone's signing cert other than MS's.
MC
"Thou shalt bash Vista" seems to be one of the commandments for geek wannabees, along with "Thou shalt rant against top-posting."
(Want to bet this will bring out an anti-top-posting rant?)
larwe
wrote:
> > BTW you haven't yet mentioned the fact that 60% of the drivers for
> > embedded dev hardware are unsigned. Vista 32-bit will not by default
> > allow you to load unsigned drivers (though it is possible to coerce
>
> Which begs the question: What were they thinking up there in Redmond?
They were thinking that they want to protect their DRM model. Add
anything not approved by the gods and your system starts to do funky
things whenever multimedia is used.
Vista is the next evolutionary step towards the PC becoming like an
Xbox - only applications signed by Microsoft will run on it. Microsoft
lambasts the iPhone software sales model, but they are working towards
the exact same thing. At which point you might as well have an NC.
It's grossly foolhardy to lock up your business and personal data in
ephemeral formats like this.
larwe
wrote:
> > For small values of "perfectly" where special hardware is involved.
> > The MSP430 Windows USB-JTAG drivers, in particular, cause a kernel
> > panic when you attempt to use such hardware within Parallels or
> > VMWare.
>
> Using the closed source version of Virtual Box (it's closed source, but
> free for most practical uses), you can pass USB devices through to the
> guest system without the host having to have drivers. I've not tried
You can do this in Parallels and VMWare too; no host drivers are
required to use USB hardware. The problem being that the MSP430 USB-
JTAG and ez430 crash the MacOS kernel hard. It's a well-documented
problem with no resolution, and the fact that it happens under two
totally different virtualization environments leads me to believe it's
something intrinsic to the TI hardware.
David Brown
You didn't top-post - you failed to quote properly :-)
Warning against unsigned drivers is a good thing - disabling unsigned
drivers is a bad thing. There's a difference.
Signed drivers also introduce a false sense of security in users. When
a driver is signed, it means you can be fairly sure that company X made
the driver - it gives absolutely no guarantees that it will work, and
that it won't trash your machine!
If you are a small company, the time and cost involved in getting
drivers signed is just not realistic. So forcing driver signing in
Vista 64 is another one of the thoughtless "kill the little guy" moves.
I suppose Vista 64 is not that popular yet, but more demanding users
are going to see that with Vista taking so much memory itself, 4 GB
doesn't stretch that far any more, and using a 64-bit system has its
appeals.
James Beck
da...@westcontrol.removethisbit.com says...
3GB available in the address space after the reserved space for memory
mapped devices and other goodies, and the most apps are given a 2GB
memory/virtual memory chunk. If you try to turn on the 3GB switch in
XP, odds are you will trash your video driver.
I wanted to build an 8GB system with XP Pro64 or Vista Ultimate 64 bit,
but after all the crap I keep reading, I'm not sure it is worth the
trouble to make the switch.
Joerg
> MC wrote:
>> Warning against unsigned drivers is a good thing. It's amazing how
>> much flak Microsoft takes for doing things right.
>>
>> "Thou shalt bash Vista" seems to be one of the commandments for geek
>> wannabees, along with "Thou shalt rant against top-posting."
>>
>> (Want to bet this will bring out an anti-top-posting rant?)
>
> You didn't top-post - you failed to quote properly :-)
>
> Warning against unsigned drivers is a good thing - disabling unsigned
> drivers is a bad thing. There's a difference.
>
Exactamente. And one of the many reasons why Vista won't be used in this
here office ;-)
[...]
Alex Colvin
>They were thinking that they want to protect their DRM model. Add
>anything not approved by the gods and your system starts to do funky
>things whenever multimedia is used.
They were thinking that with solid DRM they could get the RIAA and MPAA to
sign on, and deliver a killer media box. That's a much bigger market than
hardware hackers, and it could pay on each transaction, instead of for
each license.
Besides, the rest of us will update eventually, when the drivers
stabilize.
--
mac the naïf
Mike H
> On Jun 16, 10:29 pm, Jim Granville <no.s...@designtools.maps.co.nz>
> wrote:
>> That is likely also the legal framework, behind the note Joerg found :
>>
>> Windows XP Professional."
>
>
> version. In essence, you are paying for both versions of the OS.
>
> Rick
Has anyone looked at ReactOS? www.reactos.org (still in alpha though)
From the website:
ReactOS Project
ReactOS® is an advanced free open source operating system providing a
ground-up implementation of a Microsoft Windows® XP compatible operating
system. ReactOS aims to achieve complete binary compatibility with both
applications and device drivers meant for NT and XP operating systems,
by using a similar architecture and providing a complete and equivalent
public interface.
ReactOS is the most complete working model of a Windows® like operating
system available. Consequently, working programmers will learn a great
deal by studying ReactOS source code and even participating in ReactOS
development.
ReactOS has and will continue to incorporate features from newer
versions and sometimes even define the state of the art in operating
system technology.
In short, ReactOS is aiming to run your applications and use your
hardware, a free operating system for everyone!
David Brown
A section of the memory map (768MB in total, I believe) is reserved for
the PCI space and other peripherals. So you get 3.25 GB max RAM on
32-bit windows.
> I wanted to build an 8GB system with XP Pro64 or Vista Ultimate 64 bit,
> but after all the crap I keep reading, I'm not sure it is worth the
> trouble to make the switch.
>
I've got 64-bit XP on this machine at home - more out of curiosity than
need. It works for most things, but there are definite compatibility
problems. 16-bit programs don't work at all (I've a few of them left),
and 32-bit programs that work at a lower level than usual have problems.
For example, Virtual Box needs a 64-bit binary rather than a 32-bit
binary - it works, but it will not have nearly as much testing as the
32-bit version. And netdrive (a webdav client for windows, since the
native windows version is so badly broken) won't install. There's no
64-bit version since it is abandonware.
All in all, I can't recommend 64-bit XP for general use - and I expect
the same applies for Vista 64-bit.
Andrew Smallshaw
> Warning against unsigned drivers is a good thing. It's amazing how much flak Microsoft takes for doing things right.
>
> "Thou shalt bash Vista" seems to be one of the commandments for geek wannabees, along with "Thou shalt rant against top-posting."
But what about "Thou shall rant against posts that are not wrapped
to under 78 columns"? In a standards compliant newsreader your
post above is two long lines.
--
Andrew Smallshaw
and...@sdf.lonestar.org
CBFalconer
> Tomás Ó hÉilidhe wrote:
>
... snip ...
>
>> I hate that stuff. For example, under Linux, I'm always logged
>> in as root. I have full control over what executables files I
>> run, and I'm not thick, so I don't have a problem. And yes I do
>> see those prompts every day, must just be the kind of user I am.
>
... snip ...
>
> If you are working with a desktop, then it's silly to login as
> root - it's like removing the door to your house to avoid the
> minor inconvenience of opening it.
He has been told this many times before. However, Tomas is a
genius, knows everything, and thus sees fit to ignore advice.
--
[mail]: Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
[page]: <http://cbfalconer.home.att.net>
Try the download section.
** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
CBFalconer
>
... snip ...
>
> What experiences have people had with Vista?
See for yourself:
<http://www.cs.auckland.ac.nz/~pgut001/pubs/vista_cost.txt>
<http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/423>
<http://www.schneier.com/crypto-gram-0702.html#8>
<http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit043.html>
CBFalconer
>
... snip ...
> becoming less and less common. There are few reasons to upgrade
> to Vista but also few reasons to go back to XP. It is the future
> and we'll all have to get used to it eventually.
I think you are mistaken. The future is Linux, possibly Ubuntu.
CBFalconer
>
> I have been looking to buy a new computer for a bit and I had just
> about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I
> called them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP
> machines after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems
> pretty crazy to me that if XP is still that popular, they would
> stop selling it. Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
I think I've said this before - get Ubuntu. Free cd at:
CBFalconer
Here you are. :-) Please do not top-post. Your answer belongs
after (or intermixed with) the quoted material to which you reply,
after snipping all irrelevant material. See the following links:
<http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html>
<http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html>
<http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html>
<http://cfaj.freeshell.org/google/> (taming google)
<http://members.fortunecity.com/nnqweb/> (newusers)
Also, do try to control your line lengths. 72 is good, 67 better.
Didi
> ....
>
> Warning against unsigned drivers is a good thing - disabling unsigned
> drivers is a bad thing. There's a difference.
>
A pretty huge difference, I might add. That Vista thing (which I have
never had and hope to never have anywhere near me) just takes the
next step of what MS have been consistently doing since day
one - limiting computer usefulness for the general public as much
as possible in a publically acceptable manner.
It remains to be seen if they will succeed at pushing through all
the new limitations they bring with vista, I suspect they will.
They just know what they are doing, the moment they feel something
will not be accepted they retract it for a future date and move on.
But succeeding among the general public is one thing - all they
give them is an improved TV-set which is all 99+% of the people
are after anyway - whereas succeeding among users like readers
of this group is another, their TV-sets seem to have become just
useless (again, I am saying this by just watching from the sideline,
I do not need any MS or intel etc. to do my development work, I
am quite fine with my DPS based toolchain).
There may be some things to happen next few years because of
MS trying to reach a bit too far this time, though - we'll see.
Didi
------------------------------------------------------
Dimiter Popoff Transgalactic Instruments
http://www.tgi-sci.com
------------------------------------------------------
http://www.flickr.com/photos/didi_tgi/sets/72157600228621276/
Original message: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.arch.embedded/msg/4594141abde6fbaf?dmode=source
Everett M. Greene
> I suppose Vista 64 is not that popular yet, but more demanding users
> are going to see that with Vista taking so much memory itself, 4 GB
> doesn't stretch that far any more, and using a 64-bit system has its
> appeals.
Interesting. It wasn't that many years ago that the hardware
capability and capacity to run Vista was considered a supercomputer.
Yesterday's supercomputer wouldn't even be able to start Vista,
much less do anything useful with it.
I ran a machine for many years with a 50 Mbyte hard drive and
got along nicely. I increased the size when I could no longer
get replacements that small but only went to about 100 Mbytes.
Today, you need two orders of magnitude more disk space just
to hold the OS!
Brendan Gillatt
Hash: SHA1
EventHelix.com wrote:
> Vista is OK performance wise but it is incompatible with older
> programs like Visual C++ 6.0.
>
> You do need at least 2 GB of RAM for decent performance.
>
I disagree; I've been running Vista for the past 5 months on 1GB of RAM
and it's only when I do audio or image editing that it starts to run
short. For embedded work, all my compilers run smooth and I find it to be
vastly more stable than XP.
I have, however, heard that some embedded tools do not work with vista
(driver incompatibilities). Luckily I only use Microchip and JTAG tools
which are well supported.
- --
Brendan Gillatt | GPG Key: 0xBF6A0D94
brendan {a} brendangillatt (dot) co (dot) uk
http://www.brendangillatt.co.uk
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Joerg
Don't count on me upgrading anytime soon ...
Robert Adsett
22065b...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>, Didi says...
> David Brown wrote:
> > ....
> >
> > Warning against unsigned drivers is a good thing - disabling unsigned
> > drivers is a bad thing. There's a difference.
> >
>
> A pretty huge difference, I might add. That Vista thing (which I have
> never had and hope to never have anywhere near me) just takes the
> next step of what MS have been consistently doing since day
> one - limiting computer usefulness for the general public as much
> as possible in a publically acceptable manner.
They do seem intent on increasing the viability of MAC OS and Linux
don't they.
Robert
The Real Andy
wrote:
>I have been looking to buy a new computer for a bit and I had just
>about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
>them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
>after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
>to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
>Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
>
>So the question is, is Vista ready for prime time? I have heard
>nothing but bad about it and I know that a lot of software vendors
>have yet to support it... at least the last time I looked. Are the
>rumors true of Vista being a PITA or just plain incompatible? Is it
>time to switch to Linux?
>
>What experiences have people had with Vista?
>
>Rick
OK, many myths in this thread. Vista is fine so long as you dont have
software that directly addresses hardware. It will run fine on 1gb of
memory. There is no performance loss, in fact there are increases in
certain areas. It does index everything which can slow down file
operations occasionaly, but this can be disabled. I have been using
Vista since it was released and I am yet to have any problems. I did
upgrade my memory at one stage, but this was only so I could run
several instances of virtual pc, as you would also have to do with xp
If you are an engineer and you want to fiddle with everything and run
outdated software, then Vista is a no go. If you want something that
works out of the box on a new pc then vista is fantastic. IF you want
to install vista on old hardware, then I would probably give it a
miss.
Boudewijn Dijkstra
<there...@nospam.com>:
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:53:29 -0700 (PDT), rickman <gnu...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I have been looking to buy a new computer for a bit and I had just
>> about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
>> them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
>> after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
>> to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
>> Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
>>
>> So the question is, is Vista ready for prime time? I have heard
>> nothing but bad about it and I know that a lot of software vendors
>> have yet to support it... at least the last time I looked. Are the
>> rumors true of Vista being a PITA or just plain incompatible? Is it
>> time to switch to Linux?
>>
>> What experiences have people had with Vista?
>
>
> software that directly addresses hardware.
Like device drivers, that have to be signed by MS?
> It will run fine on 1gb of
> memory. There is no performance loss, in fact there are increases in
> certain areas. It does index everything which can slow down file
> operations occasionaly, but this can be disabled. I have been using
> Vista since it was released and I am yet to have any problems. I did
> upgrade my memory at one stage, but this was only so I could run
> several instances of virtual pc, as you would also have to do with xp
>
> If you are an engineer and you want to fiddle with everything and run
> outdated software, then Vista is a no go. If you want something that
> works out of the box on a new pc then vista is fantastic. IF you want
> to install vista on old hardware, then I would probably give it a
> miss.
If you need more expensive and power-hungry hardware to be able to perform
mostly the same tasks, then I cannot possibly consider it an "upgrade".
And if you really need eye-candy to prevent you from becoming depressed,
then there are IMHO better ways to spend your money.
So how can you say that Vista is fine?
--
Gemaakt met Opera's revolutionaire e-mailprogramma:
http://www.opera.com/mail/
larwe
> They were thinking that with solid DRM they could get the RIAA and MPAA to
> sign on, and deliver a killer media box. That's a much bigger market than
And what exactly have movies and MP3s got to do with a workday [for
most people with a day job]? If they put it all in Media Center
Edition, no problem! They're making a set-top box and that's fine.
Putting it in all OS variants - instant unviability.
Stef
The Real Andy <there...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
> If you are an engineer and you want to fiddle with everything and run
> outdated software, then Vista is a no go.
Ok, that's a no go for almost everyone in this group then. ;-)
--
Stef (remove caps, dashes and .invalid from e-mail address to reply by mail)
Jim Granville
> OK, many myths in this thread. Vista is fine so long as you dont have
> software that directly addresses hardware. It will run fine on 1gb of
> memory. There is no performance loss, in fact there are increases in
> certain areas. It does index everything which can slow down file
> operations occasionaly, but this can be disabled. I have been using
> Vista since it was released and I am yet to have any problems. I did
> upgrade my memory at one stage, but this was only so I could run
> several instances of virtual pc, as you would also have to do with xp
>
> If you are an engineer and you want to fiddle with everything and run
> outdated software, then Vista is a no go. If you want something that
> works out of the box on a new pc then vista is fantastic. IF you want
> to install vista on old hardware, then I would probably give it a
> miss.
And if you need Vista to work with old hardware, also give it a miss ?
Many embedded designs have long version control time-lines, and need to
work with fixed software versions.
Of course, this market is so small, Microsoft do not care.
-jg
Jim Granville
> In comp.arch.embedded,
> The Real Andy <there...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>>If you are an engineer and you want to fiddle with everything and run
>>outdated software, then Vista is a no go.
>
>
> Ok, that's a no go for almost everyone in this group then. ;-)
Yes - With the 'want to run outdated software', changed to 'need to run
outdated software' - version control often removes
option/luxury of 'want' ;)
-jg
Joerg
Exactly. But it's not just engineers. Many businesses run legacy MRP
systems and a change can be extremely expensive. MS used to have an ok
attitude towards backward compatibility. That seems to have noticeably
changed with Vista, to the point where they might discover that they
just shot themselves in the foot.
Yesterday during the dog walk we met a friend who owns a business and
just bought a round of new PCs. His comments about this new stuff
consisted mostly of words like "stinks, pain in the neck, sluggish,
resource hog" and so on.
JB
>> What experiences have people had with Vista?
>
> Vista is OK performance wise but it is incompatible with older
> programs like Visual C++ 6.0.
I believe Visual C++ 6 WILL work on Vista. Microsoft does not support
it perhaps, but it works as far as I can tell.
Cheers,
Jody
whygee
> I think you are mistaken. The future is Linux, possibly Ubuntu.
(or so).
ygtroll
The Real Andy
I know, this is why the linux engineers cant make me a build
environment for the 5 year old hardware I have, but the CE stuff will
still compile using a vista box. I guess ms does not care.
The Real Andy
<boud...@indes.com> wrote:
>Op Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:40:42 +0200 schreef The Real Andy
><there...@nospam.com>:
>> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:53:29 -0700 (PDT), rickman <gnu...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I have been looking to buy a new computer for a bit and I had just
>>> about decided on a Windows XP based system from Dell. Today I called
>>> them and found that not only are they not going to sell XP machines
>>> after tomorrow, but the orders are flooding in! It seems pretty crazy
>>> to me that if XP is still that popular, they would stop selling it.
>>> Is this something mandated by MicroSoft?
>>>
>>> So the question is, is Vista ready for prime time? I have heard
>>> nothing but bad about it and I know that a lot of software vendors
>>> have yet to support it... at least the last time I looked. Are the
>>> rumors true of Vista being a PITA or just plain incompatible? Is it
>>> time to switch to Linux?
>>>
>>> What experiences have people had with Vista?
>>
>>
>> OK, many myths in this thread. Vista is fine so long as you dont have
>> software that directly addresses hardware.
>
>Like device drivers, that have to be signed by MS?
Why do I not have any problems?
>
>> It will run fine on 1gb of
>> memory. There is no performance loss, in fact there are increases in
>> certain areas. It does index everything which can slow down file
>> operations occasionaly, but this can be disabled. I have been using
>> Vista since it was released and I am yet to have any problems. I did
>> upgrade my memory at one stage, but this was only so I could run
>> several instances of virtual pc, as you would also have to do with xp
>>
>> If you are an engineer and you want to fiddle with everything and run
>> outdated software, then Vista is a no go. If you want something that
>> works out of the box on a new pc then vista is fantastic. IF you want
>> to install vista on old hardware, then I would probably give it a
>> miss.
>
>If you need more expensive and power-hungry hardware to be able to perform
>mostly the same tasks, then I cannot possibly consider it an "upgrade".
>And if you really need eye-candy to prevent you from becoming depressed,
>then there are IMHO better ways to spend your money.
>
>So how can you say that Vista is fine?
Sigh..... The hardware is cheaper, your microwave draws more power...
The Real Andy
<notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>Jim Granville wrote:
>> Stef wrote:
>>> In comp.arch.embedded,
>>> The Real Andy <there...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> If you are an engineer and you want to fiddle with everything and run
>>>> outdated software, then Vista is a no go.
>>>
>>>
>>> Ok, that's a no go for almost everyone in this group then. ;-)
>>
>> Yes - With the 'want to run outdated software', changed to 'need to run
>> outdated software' - version control often removes
>> option/luxury of 'want' ;)
>>
>
>Exactly. But it's not just engineers. Many businesses run legacy MRP
>systems and a change can be extremely expensive. MS used to have an ok
>attitude towards backward compatibility. That seems to have noticeably
>changed with Vista, to the point where they might discover that they
>just shot themselves in the foot.
>
>Yesterday during the dog walk we met a friend who owns a business and
>just bought a round of new PCs. His comments about this new stuff
>consisted mostly of words like "stinks, pain in the neck, sluggish,
>resource hog" and so on.
If you think this is restricted to MS then you are all fools. If I try
and run mac software from 10 years ago I am going to have greif. If I
try and run linux software from 10 years ago I am going to have greif.
Why is MS so different? I deal with all this shit everyday, not just
MS. Why cant the software designed to run on redhat 6 that I currently
have not run on the current version of redhat? IT will if its
upgraded, just like the NT4 software I have.
Joel
Vista, that would the major enhancement that would make Vista a worthwhile
upgrade.
Andrew Smallshaw
Possibly, but it's been done before with limited success. The
classic example is Pick but NewtonOS is a much more recent example.
Not overly familiar with the former but the concept was one of the
key causes of the Newton's 'data island' tendencies. Highly ironic
given that the communications capabilities were one of things Apple
made a marketing effort about.
With Microsoft behind it it is probably inevitable that the idea
will finally gain some traction. It has many good points both
from a user and programmer perspective but you can bet that MS will
tie the whole thing very firmly to Windows and interoperability
with other platforms will suffer greatly as a result. Flat files
are flat files everywhere but a database view of a 'file' is
inevitably going to differ across platforms.
--
Andrew Smallshaw
and...@sdf.lonestar.org
Andrew Smallshaw
>
> If you think this is restricted to MS then you are all fools. If I try
> and run mac software from 10 years ago I am going to have greif. If I
> try and run linux software from 10 years ago I am going to have greif.
Actually, a couple of months ago I happened to 'file' a compiled
C program I wrote many years ago and I was shocked to notice that
it was a SCO OpenServer executable. Since using OpenServer I've
switched to Unixware and then completely left the SCO family with
NetBSD. My executable had carried on running flawlessly on each
new system and I was completely unaware that it had not been
recompiled to a native form for each new OS.
More generally, a lot of this thread seems to implicitly centre
around the fact that Linux is not Windows. Does it surprise you
that Windows applications don't run on Linux? This is hardly a
valid criticism of Linux. I have some apps that run on Solaris/Sparc.
I don't hold it against either Windows or Linux that these programs
don't run on them. I take it as read. If there is some support
for applications from other platforms then that is to the host OS's
credit rather than something than must be demanded from an OS. I
keep a Windows 2000 machine on the network and when I need to run
a Windows app I open up a terminal services session with rdesktop.
Similarly, people seem to think that Linux apps should be a drop-in
replacement for Windows from a user perspective. This appears to
be the entire premise of Gnome and KDE among others. Personally
I don't want this kind of desktop eye candy - they're slow, memory
hogs, and generally make Unix a Windows-like environment from a
perfomance perspective. Give me Motif and an xterm any day of the
week. I'll use my Unix systems just like they were used before
people started to attempt to Windowise it.
--
Andrew Smallshaw
and...@sdf.lonestar.org
Joerg
That's why I love DOS. Pretty much all of the DOS routines from the late
80's I still need run flawlessly on NT4, Win2k and XP. I've heard they
won't on Vista but that wouldn't matter because that's off limits in
this office anyhow. Ok, there is the occasional Borland compiler bug
(runtime error) but that is quite easily fixed.
Some of this software does not exist in any flavor other than DOS so
it's got to run. I am not a SW guy so I wouldn't be able to write myself
a Windows version. Now 20 years ain't bad for software, I think.
Jonathan Kirwan
<notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
><snip>
>That's why I love DOS. Pretty much all of the DOS routines from the late
>80's I still need run flawlessly on NT4, Win2k and XP. I've heard they
>won't on Vista but that wouldn't matter because that's off limits in
>this office anyhow. Ok, there is the occasional Borland compiler bug
>(runtime error) but that is quite easily fixed.
>
>Some of this software does not exist in any flavor other than DOS so
>it's got to run. I am not a SW guy so I wouldn't be able to write myself
>a Windows version. Now 20 years ain't bad for software, I think.
Some of the products I maintain were written using compilers developed
for straight DOS environments and in a few cases, they will simply not
run in WinXP DOS boxes, for example. The latest version for which I'm
fairly sure they will run is Win98SE (though I haven't ever tried
WinME, so cannot comment on it.) Microsoft, on July 11, 2006, has
placed them on a non-supported status. But the installation of
Win98SE can be performed without any involvement of Microsoft and I've
kept around some older machines as well. I also keep a rather
complete set of compilers from various sources (Lattice C, Borland c
versions, early Microsoft c versions up through 8.00c, and BASIC and
Pascal and so on, etc.) so I remain able to handle older products. I
also purchased a bunch of retail distributions (sealed, with manuals
and so on) of DOS 5.0 from Microsoft for $4/each a while back to make
certain I'd have versions I could distribute to others, when needed.
Some of the equipment I support isn't DOS-compatible (lacking a lot of
the normal hardware in it, such as an 8254 timer for example) but uses
an 80x86 processor in a custom configuration. But even then these
compilers work perfectly well -- I use an older Intel linker/locator
or else Paradigm's or one from two other suppliers at the time to
place things as needed. The worst I've had to do is write short bits
of code to modify an OBJ before linking.
My business model has me using a separate hard disk for each client
and just racking it in when I work. This absolutely guarantees that a
system crash or hard disk failure will not impact any other client's
work. Microsoft's operating systems, up through perhaps Win2000,
supported this -- I don't need to call Microsoft to get a new ID every
time I set up a new hard disk for a new client -- but the rest do not,
so I use them... sparingly. But I do have a few purchased machines
where I do keep WinXP loaded, where I'm forced to use tools that will
no longer run on the older OS. (Though I also keep a large number of
older tools from Microchip and so on, as well.)
But Microsoft Vista policies now will probably finally force me into
much greater use of Linux and FreeBSD. As much as I'm able, I will
not use Vista, and I will spend all necessary learning time to move
further away from anything to do with Microsoft operating system
environments. It's one thing to move forward... but it is another
entirely to force an entire population to purchase hardware and
software that operates together to fully protect the DRM rights of a
few large corporate interests and, in the process, move even further
away from my business needs than they already had.
At some point the final straw is added.
Jon
Guy Macon
Andrew Smallshaw wrote:
>
>MC wrote:
>
>> Warning against unsigned drivers is a good thing. It's amazing how much flak Microsoft takes for doing things right.
>>
>> "Thou shalt bash Vista" seems to be one of the commandments for geek wannabees, along with "Thou shalt rant against top-posting."
>
>But what about "Thou shall rant against posts that are not wrapped
>to under 78 columns"? In a standards compliant newsreader your
>post above is two long lines.
Worse, some Usenet news servers truncate overly-long lines.
Joerg
> On Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:39:53 -0700, Joerg
> <notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>
>> <snip>
>> That's why I love DOS. Pretty much all of the DOS routines from the late
>> 80's I still need run flawlessly on NT4, Win2k and XP. I've heard they
>> won't on Vista but that wouldn't matter because that's off limits in
>> this office anyhow. Ok, there is the occasional Borland compiler bug
>> (runtime error) but that is quite easily fixed.
>>
>> Some of this software does not exist in any flavor other than DOS so
>> it's got to run. I am not a SW guy so I wouldn't be able to write myself
>> a Windows version. Now 20 years ain't bad for software, I think.
>
> Some of the products I maintain were written using compilers developed
> for straight DOS environments and in a few cases, they will simply not
So far I have never had a DOS app that would refuse to run on the XP
machine. Some won't do a DOS windows and the whole PC switches to
low-res DOS fulls screen. You can hear the relay clicks in the monitor.
[...]
>
> But Microsoft Vista policies now will probably finally force me into
> much greater use of Linux and FreeBSD. As much as I'm able, I will
> not use Vista, and I will spend all necessary learning time to move
> further away from anything to do with Microsoft operating system
> environments. It's one thing to move forward... but it is another
> entirely to force an entire population to purchase hardware and
> software that operates together to fully protect the DRM rights of a
> few large corporate interests and, in the process, move even further
> away from my business needs than they already had.
>
> At some point the final straw is added.
>
I feel the same way and I'd love to ditch MS. However, there is so much
stuff that won't run on anything but Windows. Hardware as well as
software. Even if only few clients would need it I'd be stuck.
Jonathan Kirwan
<notthis...@removethispacbell.net> wrote:
>Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>> At some point the final straw is added.
>
>I feel the same way and I'd love to ditch MS. However, there is so much
>stuff that won't run on anything but Windows. Hardware as well as
>software. Even if only few clients would need it I'd be stuck.
Well, as I said, I'd do "as much as possible." I agree with you about
some of the difficulties. But so far as I'm aware, I can use Win2000
right now for everything. Or, if forced, WinXP. Gradually, that may
very well change with Microsoft pushing this hard. However, that time
is a ways out -- particularly with Microsoft's willingness to sell a
WinXP downgrade for some Vista purchasers. Even a few doing that, if
enough are out there, will mean support continues elsewhere. So I
think I'm probably going to be fine for another decade -- which is
enough to see where the market has moved by then. A lot can happen in
that time.
Jon
Guy Macon
Everett M. Greene wrote:
>It wasn't that many years ago that the hardware
>capability and capacity to run Vista was considered a supercomputer.
>Yesterday's supercomputer wouldn't even be able to start Vista,
>much less do anything useful with it.
>
>I ran a machine for many years with a 50 Mbyte hard drive and
>got along nicely. I increased the size when I could no longer
>get replacements that small but only went to about 100 Mbytes.
>Today, you need two orders of magnitude more disk space just
>to hold the OS!
Consider the following products:
1940s - ENIAC "Electronic Brain":
Memory = 0.02K. Clock = 0.06 MHz. Cost = $5,000,000.00+
Weight = 60,000 Lbs. Power = 140,000 Watts
1960s - IBM System 360 Mainframe Computer:
Memory = 64K. Clock = 1.3 MHz. Cost = $1,000,000.00
Weight = 2.000 Lbs. Power = 2,000 Watts.
1980s - Commodore 128 Personal Computer:
Memory = 128K. Clock = 2 MHz. Cost = $300.00
Weight = 10 Lbs. Power = 70 Watts.
2000s - Mattel high-end toy CPU:
Memory = 512K. Clock = 3.3 MHz. Cost = Less than $1.00
Weight = Less than 1 oz. Power = Less than 0.1 Watt.
What will we be running in the 2020s?
Guy Macon
The Real Andy wrote:
>If you are an engineer and you want to fiddle with everything
>and run outdated software, then Vista is a no go.
VMWare Workstation running under Vista or Linux running
the appropriate old OS runs every kind of old software
I have been able to throw at it.
Guy Macon
Boudewijn Dijkstra wrote:
>If you need more expensive and power-hungry hardware to be able to perform
>mostly the same tasks, then I cannot possibly consider it an "upgrade".
>And if you really need eye-candy to prevent you from becoming depressed,
>then there are IMHO better ways to spend your money.
So you are saying it's *not* a good plan to replace a two dollar
deck of playing cards with a multi-thousand dollar PC running
Solitaire? What a concept! :)
Guy Macon
larwe wrote:
>
>Alex Colvin wrote:
>
>> They were thinking that with solid DRM they could get the RIAA and MPAA to
>> sign on, and deliver a killer media box. That's a much bigger market than
>
>And what exactly have movies and MP3s got to do with a workday [for
>most people with a day job]? If they put it all in Media Center
>Edition, no problem! They're making a set-top box and that's fine.
>Putting it in all OS variants - instant unviability.
If Microsoft only put the DRM in Media Center Edition, then you
could circumvent the DRM by repacing Media Center Edition with
one of the other editions.
Frank Buss
> What will we be running in the 2020s?
I think one trend is ubicomp
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ubiquitous_computing). You'll not buy single
computers, but just computing power, maybe integrated in clothes etc.,
which integrates nicely in your environment. And if they manage to build
quantum computers and develop better light switches and holographic memory,
everything will be smaller by magnitudes again. Maybe not in 10 years, but
in 20 year. Nice challenges and possiblities for software developers like
me.
--
Frank Buss, f...@frank-buss.de
http://www.frank-buss.de, http://www.it4-systems.de
Guy Macon
Jonathan Kirwan wrote:
>My business model has me using a separate hard disk for each client
>and just racking it in when I work. This absolutely guarantees that a
>system crash or hard disk failure will not impact any other client's
>work. Microsoft's operating systems, up through perhaps Win2000,
>supported this -- I don't need to call Microsoft to get a new ID every
>time I set up a new hard disk for a new client -- but the rest do not,
>so I use them... sparingly. But I do have a few purchased machines
>where I do keep WinXP loaded, where I'm forced to use tools that will
>no longer run on the older OS. (Though I also keep a large number of
>older tools from Microchip and so on, as well.)
If you set up a standard starting disk with, say, XP (and of course
all your favorite apps) on it, register your cpy of XP, get all the
updates, run "Windows Genuine Advantage" and then use XXCOPY (XXCOPY,
not XCOPY) to clone it multiple times, all the cloned disks will boot
and run just fine.
Joerg
I have a wee hope to be able to cling to XP until I retire. The idea may
not be too far out. The only reason I decommissioned a 10+ year old NT4
box here was that there were some signs of impending hardware failure,
worn out fans and so on. Still got it, might fix it up again for lab
use. One of the other PCs around here runs Win2K and is still humming
along just fine. Must be 6-7 years old now.
Old SW is sometimes a blessing. Bought a CAD package from a liquidator,
for about ten (!) bucks. 2-3 versions back, total overkill for me with
3D and all that, type the license request in, license key arrived within
60secs and, voila. All I needed was AutoCad file format compliance with
editing privileges and now I've got that. For ten bucks ...
Jonathan Kirwan
Hmm. Didn't know about that. Keep in mind that I do NOT run with any
other disk in the system, so there is no single "boot disk" that is
kept in the machine. There is only the one disk, itself.
That said, and assuming I understand you correctly, I'm going to try
out your suggestion. If it works out well enough, then that will
greatly enhance WinXP in my use here.
Sincere thanks,
Jon
Joerg
Reminds me of "talk-thru". Many of my classmates bought these expensive
Walkman type devices, effectively tuning themselves out of social life.
Plus depleting pretty much their whole savings. Then came _the_
breakthrough: A button that allowed the wearer of said device to
communicate with the people around him or her. Just like it was before
the Walkman came to market. What a concept!
Of course now that privilege of socialization commanded premium pricing
for the device and regular purchases of batteries. That's called
progress ...
Vista isn't all that different. Remember when writing a letter required
a pencil for, oh, maybe 50 cents? Now you first have to make sure that
there is at least 1GB of RAM. If you want to sketch something up the
pencil needed no upgrades. With Vista plus a graphics or CAD package
chances are that those 1GB aren't going to cut it.
rickman
> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:12:54 +0200, "Boudewijn Dijkstra"
>
> >mostly the same tasks, then I cannot possibly consider it an "upgrade".
> >And if you really need eye-candy to prevent you from becoming depressed,
> >then there are IMHO better ways to spend your money.
>
> >So how can you say that Vista is fine?
>
> Sigh..... The hardware is cheaper, your microwave draws more power...
That is a specious argument. The purpose of a microwave is to *heat*
food. In fact, part of the utility of a microwave is measured by how
fast it can heat food which means how much power it can consume. So
of course it uses a lot of power... duh!
PCs use a lot less power than a space heater, or a heat pump or...
well, not a lot of other electrical stuff in the home actually.
A refrigerator uses less power than a PC. A HiFi uses less power,
even if you have it cranked up to anything below the threshold of
pain. My TV uses less power than a PC and even the old fashioned 100
Watt incandescent lightbulb I have lighting the room uses less power
than a PC.
I think the point is that PCs are finally headed in the direction of
using less power. New software, such as Vista, requires even more
processing, memory and storage which push the power demands back up.
Let's leave microwave ovens out of this...
Rick
rickman
wrote:
>
> That's why I love DOS. Pretty much all of the DOS routines from the late
> 80's I still need run flawlessly on NT4, Win2k and XP. I've heard they
> won't on Vista but that wouldn't matter because that's off limits in
> this office anyhow. Ok, there is the occasional Borland compiler bug
> (runtime error) but that is quite easily fixed.
If Vista is "off-limits" in your office, how do you buy new
hardware? It is pretty hard to buy a new laptop with anything other
than Vista now that Dell has quit selling XP. I can build my own
desktop and run any OS I want, but I can't do much about a laptop.
Rick
Joerg
Easy: Go to the next PC wrench shop. They'll build whatever you like. Or
order the pieces including something like this:
http://store.purplus.net/miwixpprwofa.html
Heck, if you'd like to go totally retro and rock-bottom cost:
http://chicagocomputersupply.com/c78-00002.html
IIUC it's for 20 clients so that would come to about $17 per seat. Can't
beat that I guess.
I could imagine Dell losing quite a bit of revenue, starting yesterday.
$50 more for the "privilege' of not wanting Vista can push very savvy
buyers over to the local markets. Of which there are plenty.
Old American saying: If you don't listen to what your customers want,
someone else will.