3D Printer Purchases

[Zach Zeman]

As you may know, the 3D printer at the space is currently down because of a problem with one of its power supplies. The problem seems like much more than just a fuse, so it probably needs replaced. This supply should be a capable replacement and it only costs $26 shipped.

Additionally, we've discussed buying more filament for members to use in their prints. I've been having good luck with the Gizmo Dorks roll that was also from Amazon for around $28. We could use some basic colors, like white and gray, at the least.

I propose that we spend about $100 of the group's funds to get the printer working again and amass a stockpile of filament (actually like 3 rolls). I'd like to have this done before the next business meeting. We could use this list to vote on colours and if we actually want to take this action. Or we could make some other kind of online poll.

I just want to start the discussion because it has sucked to have the 3d printer down for two weeks. Thanks.

-Zach

[Scott Kovaleski]

What happened to the power supply?

Scott Kovaleski

scott.k...@gmail.com

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[Zach Zeman]

A couple weeks ago, we found that the print bed was not heating up. At the next meeting, we did some troubleshooting and narrowed it down to the 24V power supply. We found that the fuse was blown. Working under the assumption that the bed had gotten cold enough to push the supply over its 5A limit, I ordered a new fuse.

At this last meeting, I replaced the fuse with another 5A/250V and plugged it in to test. There was a pop and a flash and I unplugged it again. Upon inspection, I found that a protection component which Matt was able to name had popped, but the fuse was still intact. So, unfortunately, there's probably something more wrong with that supply.

-Zach

[Brad Collette]

I'm all for spending club funds to repair (and/or improve) the printer.

I'm not in favor of using funds to buy consumables unless individuals are reimbursing the club for plastic when they print parts. Either everyone should but their own filament or we should have price per cm and people log it on a sheet and put money in the kitty.

Software can tell you how many cm a print will use but there is probably a better way to meter it.

[Pabst, Bill]

I vote for spending club funds to fix and improve Scott's printer.
________________________________________
From: columbia-g...@googlegroups.com [columbia-g...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Brad Collette [shopint...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 22, 2014 10:36 PM
To: Scott Kovaleski
Subject: Re: 3D Printer Purchases

I'm all for spending club funds to repair (and/or improve) the printer.

I'm not in favor of using funds to buy consumables unless individuals are reimbursing the club for plastic when they print parts. Either everyone should but their own filament or we should have price per cm and people log it on a sheet and put money in the kitty.

Software can tell you how many cm a print will use but there is probably a better way to meter it.

On Nov 22, 2014 6:11 PM, "Zach Zeman" <gamer...@gmail.com<mailto:gamer...@gmail.com>> wrote:
A couple weeks ago, we found that the print bed was not heating up. At the next meeting, we did some troubleshooting and narrowed it down to the 24V power supply. We found that the fuse was blown. Working under the assumption that the bed had gotten cold enough to push the supply over its 5A limit, I ordered a new fuse.

At this last meeting, I replaced the fuse with another 5A/250V and plugged it in to test. There was a pop and a flash and I unplugged it again. Upon inspection, I found that a protection component which Matt was able to name had popped, but the fuse was still intact. So, unfortunately, there's probably something more wrong with that supply.

-Zach

On Sat, Nov 22, 2014 at 5:50 PM, Scott Kovaleski <scott.k...@gmail.com<mailto:scott.k...@gmail.com>> wrote:
What happened to the power supply?

Scott Kovaleski

scott.k...@gmail.com<mailto:scott.k...@gmail.com>

On Nov 22, 2014, at 5:03 PM, Zach Zeman <gamer...@gmail.com<mailto:gamer...@gmail.com>> wrote:

As you may know, the 3D printer at the space is currently down because of a problem with one of its power supplies. The problem seems like much more than just a fuse, so it probably needs replaced. This supply<http://www.amazon.com/SUPERNIGHT-TM-Regulated-Switching-Supply/dp/B007F7S4P4/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1416694320&sr=8-3&keywords=24v+dc+power+supply> should be a capable replacement and it only costs $26 shipped.

Additionally, we've discussed buying more filament for members to use in their prints. I've been having good luck with the Gizmo Dorks<http://smile.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_2?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=gizmo+dorks+pla&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3Agizmo+dorks+pla> roll that was also from Amazon for around $28. We could use some basic colors, like white and gray, at the least.

I propose that we spend about $100 of the group's funds to get the printer working again and amass a stockpile of filament (actually like 3 rolls). I'd like to have this done before the next business meeting. We could use this list to vote on colours and if we actually want to take this action. Or we could make some other kind of online poll.

I just want to start the discussion because it has sucked to have the 3d printer down for two weeks. Thanks.

-Zach

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[Scott Kovaleski]

Well, there really is no vote on the power supply, right? Everything worked when I loaned the printer to the club, and it broke while being used by the club, so the club must fix it, it seems to me.

Has anyone checked the bed resistance? It should be >24V/5A
or bigger than about 5 Ohms. If not it will draw too much current. How about the ramps board where the current comes in? Could be a problem there too.

That something popped before the fuse blew doesn't necessarily mean a power supply problem. Sounds like a capacitor popped. Was that on the 120 v side of the supply or on the DC out side?

Scott Kovaleski
scott.k...@gmail.com

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[Dan Goldstein]

 I also vote yes on spending funds to fix Scotts printer. 

(We borrowed it, so it is up to us to fix it. )

I am ok with spending some funds for filament. Brad are you ok with a one time purchase, with the

understanding that we will work out a use based way to gather funds for future purchases?

Dan

[Dan Goldstein]

Yes on first point.

Checking the resistance was going to be my next e-mail... Lets diagnose the problem before

plugging in a new supply.

--

"There is nobody in this country who got rich on his own. Nobody. You built a factory   out there - good for you.
 
But I want to be clear. You moved your goods to market on the roads the rest of us paid for. You hired workers the rest of us paid to educate. You were safe in your factory because of the police forces and the fire forces that the rest of us paid for. You didn't have to worry that marauding bands would come and seize everything at your factory...
 
Now look. You built a factory and it turned into something terrific or a great idea - God bless! Keep a big hunk of it. But part of the underlying social contract is you take a hunk of that and you pay forward for the next kid who comes along."
- Elizabeth Warren (Sept. 2011)

[Brad Collette]

I don't think we would spend group money to buy lumber, aluminum, steel, or components for someone's personal project so I have a difficult time understanding how plastic is any different.

Surplus materials that are donated are a different story.  John and I visited Pumping Station One in Chicago on Friday and that's exactly the model they have.  I saw a large rack of lumber and asked if it was for anyone to use.  The answer was that people bring in their own supplies but often donate the surplus which can be used by anyone.

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Brad Collette
573-427-7132

[Brad Collette]

Likewise, if it's a group project, I don't have a problem with group money being used.  If we were printing parts for a club-owned scanner or Bill's "wall of heads" I'm on board.

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Brad Collette
573-427-7132

[Ryan Raney]

Checking the resistance of the heated bed was the first thing we did when we found the blown fuse. If I remember correctly it was around 6 ohms.

What popped was a black round ceramic disc device. I don't know if it was a MOV or capacitor but it was about a quarter inch thick and about the diameter of a dime. It cracked like a broken M&M. Some of the diodes on the input side looked warm as well.

[Scott Kovaleski]

So it sounds like the problem was on the 120v AC input side? I might try to swing by the space this week to take a look.

Scott Kovaleski

scott.k...@gmail.com

[Zach Zeman]

Brad,

I would be more for a "pay by usage" system than a "bring your own filament" policy. But given the 4-month usage history of the 3d printer, I don't see either one as necessary at this point. I'll make my arguments for buying materials in this case below, but I believe there's enough interest to put it to a vote.

I think that printer filament is different from consumables like aluminum, wood, etc. Telling a newbie that they need to buy their own roll of plastic to print a trinket is akin to telling someone they need to buy pallets of plywood and 2x4's to make a workbench. It's like saying that we have a 3D printer, but only for use by those who already use 3d printers.

Like I said, reimbursing for usage is more reasonable, but for a 1kg spool we'd be looking at about $0.085 per meter ($28/~330m in a spool). That seems fair to us, but when I think about from an outsider's perspective it feels petty. Here we charge $30 a month for access to the space and tools, but we want people to scrounge for pocket change to make a print? In my mind, that puts us on the level of a parking meter, and that's not a game I want to get into.

As Dan pointed out, what I'm proposing is a one-time purchase. If we run out in a month because two people printed all their Christmas gifts, we'll take a harder look at it. If we make it six months but are seeing heavy usage, maybe we'll have to put more restrictions on it. But for now, I like to think of this as an investment. 3d printing is an exciting technology to people not as jaded as some of us (*cough* Matt *cough*), and if we can bring in just one new member for three months based on making that tech more accessible and usable, we will make more than our money back.

And it's not without some precedent. We have screws, hardware, electrical components, and solder available for use. If someone comes in alone to work on a personal project and runs the heater, lights, and power tools, we don't expect them to reimburse us for the electricity used. In this case, I feel like it's a way that we can spend some of our funds to make a better hacking experience for more of our members, both present and future. And that, to me, is what this whole hackerspace thing is all about.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox. I will also be looking into ways to do an organized online vote, if everyone is okay with that.

Thanks.

-Zach

[Ryan Raney]

Perhaps I'm over simplifying it a bit, but I think a donation box or can similar to the honors system snack drawer would be appropriate. Not outright demanding payment for filament used, but those who use filament that belongs to the space could be encouraged but not required to put some money into the can to pay for replacement filament and upkeep on the machine (fuses, power supplies, etc.) 

Beer and soda are free, but you have to pay for chips and filament. kinda weird. 

[Brad Collette]

With 3D printing there's a huge amount of waste in the form of blown prints.  I'd say something like 1 in 3 prints is actually usable.   Part of this is mitigated by good design and careful setup/slicing but why go to that effort if the filament is free?  

I think the snack system is a good model. (I never thought beer and soda where free but were likewise replenished either by donation or by feeding the kitty).  It doesn't have to be complicated.

Bottom line:  I don't think asking people to pay for what they use is petty, I think it's asking them to be considerate and good neighbors.  My experience is that people don't value things as highly when they are free.

My $.02  and I will, of course, leave it to the group to decide.

Brad Collette
573-427-7132

[Jim A. Fieser]

Color me green for the "jaded" camp.  3D printing may not be just a fad, but it doesn't have nearly the utility that the current frenzy would suggest.  My neighbor has been trying to convince me that the technology has no limits and that soon we'll be 3D printing titanium replacement joints!  Who needs to learn metallurgy, how to program a CNC mill or how to raise tomatoes if you can just have the replicator print what you need?  

On the other hand, since the population of the society we live in is convinced we can't be credible Makers without a 3D printer, I acknowledge the need to have a functional one.  Let's consider it a marketing tool for new members and clearly a popular tool for several current members.  If we had a 2D paper printer and forced users to bring their own paper & ink cartridge, it wouldn't be a functional printer when they needed it.  The same is true of 3D, just that the ink is filament. 

So while I don't expect to use the device anytime soon, I agree that the group should support it with affordable level of parts & consumable supplies.  

I also think we should ultimately protect the device with a rigid, lift-off cover that can help with thermal isolation while printing and some protection from air-borne debris when stored.  Since it is a marketing tool, the cover should be, well, cool:  not duct tape & cardboard.  At least 3 of the 4 vertical sides should be acrylic, the side with the necessary ventilation grille could be opaque (plywood).  The hatbox "lid" may need a slit or two in it so it can be taken on or off while it's running.  The lid would need to be reinforced underneath because the slit(s) would make it flimsy, so maybe it should be plywood too.  

Jim

Jim

[Scott Kovaleski]

I'm out at the space looking at the power supply. A couple of things pop out.

1. The problem is on the input side. It does look like a voltage limiting varistor popped, probably due to over current. Input side is good, probably no damage to the printer.

2. The PS looks like it got wet. That may have caused an input side short and an over current.

3. There are other spots that don't look too good, with solder that appears to have disappeared. Not sure what that deal is. One of the diodes near the input to output coupling looked fried.

4. Possible bridge at the 220v/120v switch due to water damage. Might be a possible culprit.

5. In my opinion the power supply is not worth fixing. I'd look for one with the same specs, 24v 5a. The bed can't take anymore anyway.

6. I can't find any indication of water on the cart. Condensation maybe? Some oddball occurrence?

Scott Kovaleski

scott.k...@gmail.com

[Ryan Raney]

As far as I know nothing had been spilled over there.  I do know that we had/have a slight rodent problem that we need to address. Could mouse urine cause such a failure?

We located an equivalent power supply on amazon for less than $50 at one point. Zach may have that information.

[Scott Kovaleski]

I didn't find any sort of smoking gun regarding how the supply got wet. But it sure looked like water had worked on the innards somewhat.

The Jameco supplies are cheap and workable. This one is rated about right and only $22.50.
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_323855_-1

[Dan Goldstein]

Lets order a power supply from cgw funds right away.

Go for the Jameco one. As a backup option,

I have used two of this brand from Mouser.

http://www.mouser.sg/ProductDetail/Mean-Well/RS-150-24/?qs=sGAEpiMZZMs2%252bVrH5rwl1iWPglBlMEh3e0q1ytz10Do%3d

Scott one of these is the one you helped me look at the noise content of the output with your oscilloscope (Thanks again).

Hows life post "Dept head"? Better I hope...

Dan

[Scott Kovaleski]

After a few months of heavy drinking and heavier ukulele playing, I am returning to normal, Dan. I have even started doing some techy things again this week, trying to get my papilio one fpga working (so far unsuccessfully).

I can't get the interwebs to work for me right now, but the power suppy you have there looks like a Mean-Well supply, which is the same as the Jameco supply.

[Dan Goldstein]

ok, then it is a bit cheaper from Jameco.

 

[Matthew Little]

What do you guys think of the one Zach sent out? Link

I'm partial to Amazon Prime eligible stuff since I know it'll get here ASAP, plus it's a higher wattage for around the same price and with great reviews.

[Scott Kovaleski]

I'm a little worried about the additional power. If something did happen at the heated bed that reduced its resistance the PS could push enough current to damage the RAMPS board. Is there one at 24v/5a or so?

Scott Kovaleski

scott.k...@gmail.com

[Matthew Little]

The replacement supply has been ordered - I'll be sure to drop it by the space as soon as it comes in so we can get the 3D printer up and running. It should be in Saturday or early next week depending on when they get it out.