Vote for vacuum pump(s) for the vacuum former

[Brad Walsh]

This is a proposal for $200 to get the vacuum sources for the vacuum former.

I've found some nice high vac pumps from Amazon and Harbor Freight in the $100 range and we may have found a shop vac for $25 from John. We probably will also need some adapters and hoses so I'm thinking it wouldn't exceed $200.

This high vacuum pump looks pretty nice:

http://a.co/4oVlFd7

It has a 7 CFM flowrate. The 4CFM ones run around $80.

We will probably vote on this next week (Aug 29th).

Thanks,

Brad

[Daniel McNamara]

There are still funds left over from the last vote. I sent the recommended vacuums to Jim already to order.

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Daniel 

[Daniel McNamara]

The vote as approved was $2500. 
Cost of the VF should have been $2095.00 with $89.00 Shipping Totalling $2184

Leaving: $316

The following were recommended:

$264.46 https://www.amazon.com/Robinair-15800-VacuMaster-Economy-Vacuum/dp/B001P7C7QM

$33.99 https://www.amazon.com/Armor-Gallon-Utility-Vacuum-AA255/dp/B003M2F7NI

Both Totalling 298.48

Leaving $17.52

--

Daniel 

[Brad Walsh]

Cool, then we will wait on any voting until we figure out the situation.

Thanks,

Brad

[Lorin Edwin Parker]

At the meeting yesterday, we tabled Brad's vote, and will move forward with the budget Daniel passed previously.

1. We simply need to choose the items to purchase. For instance, Brad's pump model is more than $100 cheaper and more than adequate, should we get that one or another similar? A used shop-vac brand vacuum is probably more reliable than other brands, so maybe we want to still move on John's used vac? etc

2. Check the balance of available funds and make the order.

As a reminder, we use "cash" accounting. So, although there is $400+ approved for this, we would still be spending from our general balance (as always). Just an FYI that the balance on open finance is the total cash amount in the bank. That balance does not already reflect "earmarked" and approved funds. ie. this purchase, as well as the $2000 tig welder, and other approved items are yet-to-be added to the ledger. So, it's always best to come in under budget on a project.

Lorin

[Brad Walsh]

I called Centroform and spoke with their support.

They recommend the Robinair 15500. It is the model pump they use to test all the machines before they ship them.

http://a.co/jgSJMet

Goes for about $201 on Amazon.

I propose we get that one.

He mentioned that we may not even need the shop vac unless we do some very tall forms.

We could try it with just the pump and see if it works.

Probably should get the correct oil while we are at it.

http://a.co/7Np4Xzw

Around $9

We should also get some high vac hose. Do we know the ID of hose to fit the nipple on the former?

Looks like the pump has a 1/4" MFL.

Thanks,

Brad

[Daniel McNamara]

the 15800 came from research on forums, as the most recommended. the 15500 is what was minimally recommended. (its been a while but i believe it had to do with the the cooldown speeds of some plastics)

also when i budgeted the 2500 for the vote i budgeted it at the 15800. 

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[Brad Walsh]

I don't really have a stake in this, other than watching the budget.

I'm sure the 15800 has more capability, and it is only $50 more than the recommended one. 

Please do a little digging to be sure it isn't crazy loud or burns through oil to get that capability.

Forums can be filled with people claiming things that are a bit biased. 

The Centroform guy said this specific one works for them, so that carries a lot of weight for me.

I'll back out of this thread, and let you order the things you need. 

Brad

--

Thanks, Brad

[Daniel McNamara]

I don't have the ordering power, (IE the funds to do so right now and wait to be reimbursed; large commission took any extra funds I had for materials.) 
I sent this to Jim a while back, if anyone else has the ability to purchase these (from Hive funds or the funds to be reimbursed) to speed up the process it would be appreciated.

If the 15500 works, Its no skin off my back, i just wanted to put it what I knew.
Almost every VP I have dealt with is loud, no mater the size, but with a Vacuum table they dont run long.

Thanks, Brad

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Daniel 

[Brad Walsh]

OK, let's just order the 15500, the oil, and let's find out the hose diameter needed.

I think it would be cool to start a Hive project to make a stand for the former that maybe has storage slots for plastic sheets and is a bit beefier than the table it is on now. :0

Consider the vote proposal at the top of this email killed.

Thanks,

Brad

[Lorin Edwin Parker]

I always have trouble grasping CFM. I did a quick conversion of 5cfm to more familiar quantities of stuff -- about 2.4 liters per second. Seems fast to me, and a very reasonable amount of air to displace. A minute of suction would = 57 crushed milk jugs. 

Hmmm... maybe we should try that, just to see if it matches spec. Displacement of air testing is so much cooler with a vacuum pump...

L

[Dave Velzy]

Has anyone actually ordered the vac pump? If it has not been ordered, I'm volunteering. 

Side note. My son who worked in the design fab shop at school and Smart Design recommends keeping the Vac Former and supplies in a very clean space as dust is the enemy of a good vac form. The mobile cart and a cover for storage away from the wood shop is recommended. 

Dave Velzy

[Brad Walsh]

Dave,

That would be great. Just please coordinate with Jim so we don't order two. 😀

Thanks,

Brad

[Brad Walsh]

 I would also like to propose a group project to build a cart for the vacuum former. Maybe with a storage area for the sheets. I'll see about sketching something up. 

Brad

--

Thanks, Brad

[Daniel McNamara]

I would be happy to work on thick cloth covering for the machine, Dave's son (and therefor Dave) is completely accurate Dust, even more so Saw dust is TERRIBLE and a firehazard for a Vacuum former. The heating elements and sawdust... well can we just say bad?

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Thanks, Brad

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Daniel 

[Brad Walsh]

Cool. 

We should determine how high the base should be. 

I think we talked about the vacuum former living in the annex. A film of sawdust would be pretty bad for the heating elements.

This would mean we would need 220v and 110v nearby. I think Greg is going to start working on the the annex wiring soon. 

Let's s get the wiki page going and we can put all these thoughts there. 

Brad

--

Thanks, Brad

[Ryan Hershey]

I'd be willing to zap a stand together using the 1" square tube and angle iron I store in the welding room. As a group project, this could also serve as an informal class for a small number of interested people.

- Ry

[Brad Walsh]

Sounds awesome.

I'd love to get an intro to welding. 

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Thanks, Brad

[Daniel McNamara]

regarding the annex placement, have we done any sound dampening? Vacuum pumps can get loud quick.

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Daniel 

[Velzy, Dave]

Unless someone speaks up as having already ordered the Vac Pump I'll order it tomorrow. 8/31/17.

Reviewers on Amazon suggest an oil separator for the exhaust might be required. The exhaust is also most likely the source of sound. Propose, we test the sucker IRL, then solve problems we find. 

Given the short duration of operation required, foam ear plugs may be sufficient for the operator team. The Hive isn't a library. 50 pair of 32 dB ear plugs are about $10. 

Dave

Noise is the sound of shit gettin done. Noise reduction is difficult. Hearing protection is cheap. Hearing is priceless. 

I'm the old factory guy with tinnitus from 40 years of noise exposure. Do yourself a favor and wear the ear plugs.

Dave Velzy – Lean Supply Chain Leader
Troubleshooting, Project Management, Six Sigma Black Belt

Next Stage Enterprises, LLC
(513) 410-6174 
dave....@gmail.com

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[John2pt0]

Could the stand be built to contain the vac. pump and also dampen the noise, at least somewhat?

On Wednesday, August 30, 2017 at 9:30:02 PM UTC-4, Dave Velzy wrote:

Unless someone speaks up as having already ordered the Vac Pump I'll order it tomorrow. 8/31/17.

Reviewers on Amazon suggest an oil separator for the exhaust might be required. The exhaust is also most likely the source of sound. Propose, we test the sucker IRL, then solve problems we find. 

Given the short duration of operation required, foam ear plugs may be sufficient for the operator team. The Hive isn't a library. 50 pair of 32 dB ear plugs are about $10. 

Dave

Noise is the sound of shit gettin done. Noise reduction is difficult. Hearing protection is cheap. Hearing is priceless. 

I'm the old factory guy with tinnitus from 40 years of noise exposure. Do yourself a favor and wear the ear plugs.

Dave Velzy – Lean Supply Chain Leader
Troubleshooting, Project Management, Six Sigma Black Belt

Next Stage Enterprises, LLC
(513) 410-6174 
dave....@gmail.com

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 8:27 PM, Daniel McNamara <dtm...@gmail.com> wrote:

regarding the annex placement, have we done any sound dampening? Vacuum pumps can get loud quick.

Virus-free. www.avast.com

On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 6:23 PM, Brad Walsh <bra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Sounds awesome.

I'd love to get an intro to welding. 

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Thanks, Brad

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Daniel 

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[John2pt0]

Any interest in the ShopVac(r), now?

John2pt0

[Brad Walsh]

Dave,

Thanks for getting the pump. I think I also found the oil for the pump, it should be in the email thread.

I agree that the stand could hold the vacuum pump in an enclosed space with sound deadening material on the inside. Won't make it stealthy, but will probably cut the racket down by a factor of 3.

We use a high vacuum pump at my work for some microscopy work and it isn't that loud. Probably depends on the model.

We also need to get some vacuum tubing to get from the pump to the former.

I'm also not sure what fitting the pump has on the inlet. The pump description talks about 1/4" MFL (which I think means "male flare") and 1/2" ACME.

Most of these things are minor ones we can address once we get the pump.

Send Jim your receipt(s) and you will get reimbursed.

Thanks again,

Brad

[Brad Walsh]

I found a 1/4"FFL to 5/16" barb on Amazon ($5.63):

http://a.co/f96jNnG

This should let us use 5/16" ID tubing to get to the former.

Hose clamps ($5.19):

http://a.co/7guioWn

5/16" silicone vac hose ($14.95):

http://a.co/2DHEaNu

These are just suggestions on what I think we need to get things working. If we want to wait until the pump arrives that's cool with me.

Thanks,

Brad

[Velzy, Dave]

The vacuum pump and oil are ordered and due to be delivered late Saturday. 

Robinair (15500) VacuMaster Economy Vacuum Pump - 2-Stage, 5 CFM

Robinair 13203 Premium High Vacuum Pump Oil - 1 Quart

Item(s)Total before tax: $210.44

Estimated tax to be collected: $14.73

Grand Total: $225.17

I'll get fittings from Harbor Freight or Grainger after the pump arrives and we can be sure of layout. 3 foot AC charging hoses with fittings go for $10 at Grainger. With one of those we might only need some pipe nipples. Oil separator from HF for exhaust is under $6.00. An oil separator may not be necessary. 

Noise elimination is best done from the source or at your ear. Surrounds have been problematic in my experience. Concrete and cast iron work well. Sheet metal and plywood can wind up beating like a drum. 

Depending on the pump noise level, we may need vibration isolation mounts to keep the base from transmitting / amplifying the pump vibration. Rubber vibration isolators for 50# loads are under $2 each from Grainger. 

Let's do the engineering with hands on the parts. 

Dave

Dave Velzy – Lean Supply Chain Leader
Troubleshooting, Project Management, Six Sigma Black Belt

Next Stage Enterprises, LLC
(513) 410-6174 
dave....@gmail.com

--

[Brad Walsh]

Great. Thanks for working on it.

Submit your receipts to Jim for reimbursement.

I agree on the source as the best place to eliminate the noise.

I've found that well built enclosures can help lessen the "bite" of noisy equipment though. They do have to be sturdy so they don't resonate. I enclosed my shop vac in my home workbench and it is much more tolerable. We humans tend to be more sensitive to certain frequencies so things can be dramatically improved with some simple steps.

Let's not do anything till we get a sense of the real noise from the pump. We even have a fancy noise meter that someone donated. It is in the hand tool area in a labeled case.

We still need to get some plastic sheets to do some vacuum forming. I think Lorin knew of some local supply places where we could get some.

Thanks again,

Brad

[Daniel McNamara]

I have a smallish buck already made, we can test on. I would love to know that local plastic supplier. If not I have some thicker PETG we can possibly use, I have to measure it

Virus-free. www.avast.com

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Daniel 

[Jim]

Dave:

Pardon my delay to make this post.  Thank you for stepping up to front the money and make this procurement for the Hive.  I will contact you off-line to get you promptly reimbursed with Hive funds.

JimD - Hive13 Treasurer

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[Lorin Edwin Parker]

I can help with the sound proofing. Rotary vane pumps are primarily noisy above 600Hz, 1k+. An air-gap would be the trick. 60 Hz could be deadened with rubber mounts, although I have a source for some architectural types that might be better for this light machine (grainger mounts are expecting a very heavy load).

Why couldn't we locate the vacuum pump farther from the machine, like, say, outside like a window planter? That would decouple it with the neighbor's apartment. Masonry walls are great absorbers and diffusers, unlike the beams and planks that shoot sound upstairs in our main space...

[Dave Velzy]

The vac pump and oil have arrived. The pump has soft rubber feet for vibration isolation. Filled with oil and ran the pump in the driveway to get an open sound field. 90 dB noise comes mainly from the exhaust port. Sound spectrum app on phone shows peak just above 1 kHz. No big surprise. Hand cupped over the exhaust port cut noise on meter to 80 dB. Slight white vapor from port. Many posts state this is oil and should get vented away or captured in a separator.

Let's get a design for the vacuum former stand started, then purchase the pump connections. 

Alternative to a steel frame is a heavy sided box with acoustic foam liner for sound damping. 

Perhaps a box from 3/4" MDF = cheap + heavy. 4x8 sheet is $20 at HD. Router a step on the edges then glue it together. Add casters and we have a stand. 

Vacuum pump and plastic sheet should probably be kept separate if the exhaust vapor contains a hint of oil. 

If heat from former is a concern I've got some extra 1/2" concrete hardie backer board for the top surface. 

I suspect we will find other uses for a vac pump. example: vacuum chuck for wood lathe, easy way to remove the compression foot from a bowl. Need to pull 20" to 25" of vac. I'm thinking of making a vac chuck for the hive lathe. This would mean a 'portable' solution to the vacuum pump rather than permanent mount to the stand. 

We may want to add a vacuum gauge. For the exhaust noise, perhaps a muffler like this link could be printed or milled. The guy claims 10 dB reduction. 

 www.jmillerid.com/wordpress/2013/03/vacuum-pump-muffler/ 

See you all on Tuesday. 

[Brad Walsh]

Cool. 

We can look at it Tuesday. 

I may stop by Monday if our household calms down. 

We could certainly make a separate vacuum cart that could be scooted around as needed. That way people could do cool vacuum stuff. 

We have a 220v super vac in the tool shelf area. I fired it up and got quite the oil mist exhaust. Another member donated two other nice vacuum pumps but I think they are 480v. They are in the Annex. I think having this 110v one is more convenient.

Good times. 

Brad

--

Thanks, Brad

[Daniel McNamara]

I am personally against taking this Vacuum pump and making it for multiple uses, mostsly because in the past items like that are what vanish, get lost or otherwise become unusable. 

To a smaller degree, this is why we put the wrenches on wires for the CNC router
The Mist is common, my small vac pump also puts off the mist. from what i gathered its common

Virus-free. www.avast.com

Thanks, Brad

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Daniel 

[Lorin Edwin Parker]

I could adapt the muffler to the pump and print it.

I also have about 50lbs of 3" thick sound insulation roxul mineral wool (not fiberglass, the stuff made of rocks). That's what we use professionally for 1k band. Absorption coefficient of 1.05 at 1k. That would take care of a lot of sound if we go with an enclosure.

If we use this, It should be faced with fabric (burlap is fine for this) and mounted with an air gap 1"-2" between wool and exterior ply (this is the important trick -- sound would rather bounce off ply, but if absorption layer is coupled, it will rattle the pywood (the surface would be a wool/ply composite, not a layer of wool preventing sound from hitting ply). Air gap "traps" sound and lowers the effective frequency response. 

We should deal with the misting somewhat, as even a fine mist of water is considered toxic if inhaled (just ask anyone who uses an airbrush). The $100 commercial solutions seem overblown. I think something DIY could work, although there seems to be little precedent via my googling. Nonetheless, a mini vacuum hepa filter would do a little something, wouldn't it? Or, at least directing the mist off via tubing. Breathing submicron oil is not too healthy.

L

[Brad Walsh]

The separators I've seen are basically a mesh muffler with an enclosure. The air velocity is reduced a great deal and the oil collects on the mesh and drips down into the enclosure. 

I've also seen a foam filter that gets saturated with the oil. 

I think we can engineer something to work. If only we had a mill & lathe . . . 

--

Thanks, Brad

[Lorin Edwin Parker]

Yes, but first we have to have develop long, complicated mailing list discussions which lead to a solution so complex our only option is to give up. Remember the laser? 

So, to get things rolling, how about a catalytic converter stage and a 40,000 volt electrostatic element as well?

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.

From: Brad Walsh Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 11:09 AM To: cincihac...@googlegroups.com Reply To: cincihac...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [CHP] Re: Vote for vacuum pump(s) for the vacuum former

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[Lorin Edwin Parker]

Roll of toilet paper and a coffee can.

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Lorin Edwin Parker <sheep...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, but first we have to have develop long, complicated mailing list discussions which lead to a solution so complex our only option is to give up. Remember the laser? 

So, to get things rolling, how about a catalytic converter stage and a 40,000 volt electrostatic element as well?

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.

From: Brad Walsh Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 11:09 AM

To: cincihackerspace@googlegroups.com Reply To: cincihackerspace@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [CHP] Re: Vote for vacuum pump(s) for the vacuum former

The separators I've seen are basically a mesh muffler with an enclosure. The air velocity is reduced a great deal and the oil collects on the mesh and drips down into the enclosure. 

I've also seen a foam filter that gets saturated with the oil. 

I think we can engineer something to work. If only we had a mill & lathe . . . 

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Thanks, Brad

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[Velzy, Dave]

A $5.49 oil separator from Harbor Freight is number one on my list. 

It's used for air lines and can handle 80 cfm at 100 psi. 

Shouldn't be any problem to handle the 5 cfm from the vac pump exhaust.

Also like the HEPA shop vac filter idea. Cylinder pleated paper filters are under $10. We could recycle ones that are too dirty to use in a shop vac. Thinking of that, my shop vac is due for a change soon. Cut sheet metal to close top and bottom. Hold it together with an all thread rod up the middle, add flare nipple for tubing. Set it in a plastic tub so years worth of oil vapor doesn't drip. Or, just duct tape it. If that doesn't hold use a coat hanger. Think how cool that will look hanging out the side of the cabinet. ;) 

Either of those would probably work for a long time then just replace. 

Dave Velzy

On Mon, Sep 4, 2017 at 11:17 AM, Lorin Edwin Parker <sheep...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes, but first we have to have develop long, complicated mailing list discussions which lead to a solution so complex our only option is to give up. Remember the laser? 

So, to get things rolling, how about a catalytic converter stage and a 40,000 volt electrostatic element as well?

Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.

From: Brad Walsh Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 11:09 AM

To: cincihackerspace@googlegroups.com Reply To: cincihackerspace@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [CHP] Re: Vote for vacuum pump(s) for the vacuum former

The separators I've seen are basically a mesh muffler with an enclosure. The air velocity is reduced a great deal and the oil collects on the mesh and drips down into the enclosure. 

I've also seen a foam filter that gets saturated with the oil. 

I think we can engineer something to work. If only we had a mill & lathe . . . 

--

Thanks, Brad

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[Lorin Edwin Parker]

Harbor freight, to the rescue. Still, though, it just seems too simple...