Brainstorming for Space Next Door

[Elly Hall]

Gather 'round everyone....

We live in exciting times people.  This is the first time we will have expanded since the Hive first obtained a physical space 7 and a half years ago!!!  We won't get that next door space for a month or two, so that gives us plenty of time to think about the (quiet) possibilities!

Let's start some simple brainstorming over the next week or so, then start talking about some specifics of ideas through in person and mailing list discussions.  I'd like to see us vote in a "short term (think maybe 3 months) experiment" for using that space.  Then at a later date towards the end of that term, we can reevaluate our needs, the successes, failures, improvements, and changes to the original "experiment" and then vote in something more permanent.

This method worked amazingly well with the warden program when it was first proposed.  We did a 3 month voted trial, saw what worked and what didn't, made some changes and then voted in a continuing program with the months of practical experience.  Things can sound great on paper, but not always in practice.

Also, let's keep in mind with these first ideas, it would be really useful to leave the initial "experimental" vote flexible and open ended to some degree, so we can continue to play with the new space.

Considerations:

-  We must be quiet as our neighbor is above that space and it is not insulated.

-  It is an isolated room, like the lounge and fab lab, that could be kept dust-free.

-  It has a leak in the roof just like other parts of the Hive (these may be a bit worse than ones in the current hive space, not sure.)

-  The hallway is a shared space, so we can't use that as a Hive-rented space.

-  It is a large enough space that we can do many things with the space, not just ONE thing

Let the ideas flow!

Elly

[Elly Hall]

I'd like to keep this thread for GENERAL IDEAS.  Getting into specifics in the brainstorming stage is generally a bad idea and poor use of time and effort. 

One idea that people have bounced around was moving the meeting space, and possibly the lounge space.  These are both fairly quiet areas, and it might be beneficial to have these spaces away from the noise and dust for meetings, for working on the general purpose tables, and other casual things.  This also would make room for more activities in the general hive space.  This idea is compatible with other uses of that space in conjunction.

[Ryan Hershey]

Paint. Booth.

One of my constant areas of frustration is being unable  to lay down a coat of paint or finish without lint, dust, Cheetos, etc landing on the piece. We could also make good use of that available window to exhaust fumes.

- Ry

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[Timothy Gregg]

I am sure I will receive some opposition for this suggestion but, this suggestion has solid good intentions.

I would suggest moving the server and networking racks into this room.

Reasons:

• The main area gets tons of dust which we all know is terrible computer equipment
• The servers and networking racks are lightly maintained at the hive and rarely dusted out so goes in point with the previous statement
• The areas where the servers and networking racks are located are not easy to reach, which may even go as explain the previous statement
• The servers and networking equipment should very well qualify as quiet and should not bother any neighbors
• This will free up additional space in the main area for other activities that may be louder than the servers and networking equipment
• Excellent chance to upgrade and replace any outdated equipment seamlessly with little or no downtime
• This would be the perfect time to upgrade the whole system to a faster system 1000Mbps/s for cat5e, 10Gbp/s for cat6 or faster even(cat6 is likely plenty for a long while) seamlessly with little or no downtime.

I am more than willing to help spear head(with the CTO if they are so inclined) this move/transition if the hive decides to go this route.

[Daniel McNamara]

I like the idea of large storage, a big issue I see is that when someone works on a large project that is time consuming it takes up room. Examples (all of which are awesome things): Coy's safes project, the arcade machine, the Powertool drag racing, the power series cart, large costume projects. 
If we use this area as an organized storage space it would open alot of room in the main area and cluster issues would be lessened.

The other idea we can look at is getting a large compressed air tank for nighttime use, as the tank itself wouldn't make noise. 

I do like the idea of the servers getting moved out to there, assuming we can do the wiring needed.

I do also like the idea of a paint booth!

[Michael Bell-Horwath]

I like the paint booth idea. Could expand that into more general "art" space, such as sewing machines, drawing easels, or whatever.

I have mixed feelings about moving the lounge and/or meeting area. It's nice to have the meeting area next to the kitchen for community meals. For the lounge, when you have a kid watching a movie it's convenient to be able to keep on eye on them through the door.

The DIY-Bio effort a few years back had several issues, but probably the biggest was lack of space. So that would get my vote if people are still interested... (biology-dedicated table space, refrigerator, incubator, and sterile hood)

Mike

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[Andrew]

I like the idea of the paint booth, and also the server racks.  I'm not so sure they're good together, but I don't think paint is any worse than anything else the servers are currently being exposed too.  I'd be willing to do design/implementation of a paint booth, other projects permitting.

[Ian B]

I have to disagree on the server racks. They are in fact very loud. Even if they are not loud enough to bother the upstairs neighbor, they are certainly loud enough to render the smaller area of that room quite unpleasant to work in.

- Ian B.

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[Brandon Wooldridge]

Not sure if this has changed, but when I looked at the space for my own uses, the floor is noticeably slanted / has a dip.

[mhorn...@yahoo.com]

If the server racks move, the paint booth could be the replacement, question is... is the booth good enough containment not to over spray/fume out the kind fellows working on electronics. Stepped up a few notches, a new booth could extract for both welding and painting. Dunno.

[wi...@hive13.org]

As long as we are throwing our wacky ideas, 

We could relocate the fab lab into the new space, then open up the wall between the  old fab lab and the lounge to create a classroom / meeting space and still keep 1 or two of the couches in there.  This would let this space do triple duty. 

The fab lab is typically pretty low volume as is, and we would still be able to have the paint booth in the new area. 

We would then have the ability to use the existing meeting space to push over electronics and decramp the metal shop.

That is way more work just moving something into the new space, but it does seem to address a number of current limitations in the hive and the new space. 

 

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 6:27:34 PM UTC-5, Elly wrote:

[wi...@hive13.org]

I had another idea and figured it should get it's own post. 

We could put ALL (big bold letters) storage into the new area. 

Member storage, Scrap storage, PTDR storage, any onsite stock materials, etc. 

That would expand the metal shop, woodshop, and meeting areas. It would also likely allow for still having something else in the space as well, such as Fab Lab, Paint booth, Sex dungeon, etc. I don't think we have THAT much crap that needs to be stored that it would take up more than half that space. And since it is used for storage, having it in a separate area with an extra door to get access to it is an extremely small inconvenience. 

On Tuesday, January 3, 2017 at 6:27:34 PM UTC-5, Elly wrote:

[Ryan Hershey]

So pretty much like the rest of the hive, where moving things a couple of feet laterally causes a few inches of vertical change? (I'm looking at you, saw outfeed table)

There's a reason we put adjustable feet on most of the machines. :D

Though if the dip is centered, it opens the possibility of Hive13 office chair roller derby...

- Ry

[Ryan Hershey]

I like this more the longer I think about it. We could line the walls with most or all of the pallet racks. Member storage might consume the lower shelves, with grab boxes of community parts on the higher shelves as in the electronics area.

I have no no immediate ideas for the center of the room in this scenario. Hopefully some reasonably frequent activity could take place here, preventing an "out of sight out of mind" problem with cleanliness.

The other obvious downside is that this blocks the windows, preventing us from wishing they were filled with LED art. 

- Ry

[Kevin S]

I would be all for a spray booth and would even like to expand it to get actual spray guns in there. 

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[Andrew]

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 8:42:04 PM UTC-5, Kevin Schuler wrote:

I would be all for a spray booth and would even like to expand it to get actual spray guns in there. 

Unless you know something I don't I think Hive owned spray guns is a really BAD idea.  I say that as somebody who owns three airbrushes and a spray gun, none of which I can completely clean to my satisfaction.  My experience is that anything that runs a stream of material designed to stick to anything gets it everywhere and it doesn't come off.  Generally my regiment with my airbrushes involves a full soak in either 90-95% alcohol or acetone depending on what I have available.  Then a through cleaning with pipe cleaners and brushes, which is usually enough to get it into working condition.  Leaving an air brush or spray gun with any sort of paint in it overnight involves a pretty nasty cleaning, since paint is by design, not intended to come off.

I imagine any Hive owned spray guns would quickly become a disaster since they would not be cleaned, and would be used and abused.

Conversely buying your own spray gun is relatively cheap.  HF has some really cheap (like $15) guns that have gotten a decent reputation for guns to use and abuse.  Stepping up a bit, the Homeless Despot has spray guns going for $50-100.  So it doesn't seem to be unreasonable to ask members to own (and maintain!) their own spray guns.

[John2pt0]

Would a spray booth entail safety regulations?

Could it  be restricted to water-borne materials only, to avoid this (and to avoid spark/fire hazards from solvent-fan motor interactions)?

How (and to where) would it be vented? How often would the overspray filters be replaced?

(The fan duct would be a cool maker project.)

I agree that Hive would be best served by user-owned (and cleaned) spray guns (and solvent-absorbing masks).

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 8:42:04 PM UTC-5, Kevin Schuler wrote:

I would be all for a spray booth and would even like to expand it to get actual spray guns in there. 

On Thursday, January 19, 2017 at 10:01:28 PM UTC-5, Andrew wrote:

...Generally my regimen with my airbrushes involves a full soak in either 90-95% alcohol or acetone...  Then a thorough cleaning with pipe cleaners and brushes...

I imagine any Hive owned spray guns would quickly become a disaster since they would not be cleaned, and would be used and abused.

Conversely buying your own spray gun is relatively cheap.  ... it doesn't seem to be unreasonable to ask members to own (and maintain!) their own spray guns.

[Andrew]

On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 7:55:59 AM UTC-5, John2pt0 wrote:

Would a spray booth entail safety regulations?

Probably no smoking or open flames.  (BTW, haven't forgotten about your suggestions for a sign on the jointer)
 

Could it  be restricted to water-borne materials only, to avoid this (and to avoid spark/fire hazards from solvent-fan motor interactions)?

Water based materials also contain solvents, not sure how flammable they are.  Really just about anything can get much easy to burn once it's been atomized.
 

How (and to where) would it be vented? How often would the overspray filters be replaced?

I think a simple duct system out a window is the best approach.  Depending on how it's setup the overspray filters could be a simple as large fairly porous furnace filters.  OTOH, since this is currently and experiment we shouldn't get too wild with modifying the property, buying a lot of stuff.  Maybe a cheap box fan in a window, and a Dexter style kill room until we decide to make it more permanent.
 

[wi...@hive13.org]

On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 7:55:59 AM UTC-5, John2pt0 wrote:

Would a spray booth entail safety regulations?

On one hand, yes we would want to make sure we are making it safe(ish); on the other hand, currently people spray things in either the metal room or just in the middle of the workshop.   

So we would not intentionally create a deathtrap, but it not being what we currently do would inherently make it safer.

[Timothy Gregg]

We could always name it the "kill room" on the cameras...

[wi...@hive13.org]

Another use proposal: We could use the space for an elaborate deathtrap. It could be a big draw at halloween. 

[Raven Abird]

We have a spraybooth at work,  it's just plastic sheeting on 2x4s  with  some particle filtering, via a filter box and an exhaust vent that 'appears' to be a stove range hood.  (not sure if there's a different fan in it)  
Spraying in it is done for brief periods at a time,  a few minutes, then 30 minute intervals before the next few minutes of spraying.

I think making it 'water based paint' only won't work,   Rattlecans are popular. and I doubt the spray would be so concentrated as to be a fire/explosion hazard, unless people are spraying without the fan running.
I think a box fan would move enough air for most people's purposes,   plus they are cheap, are pretty standard sized, and easy to replace.

Nancy

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:10 PM, <wi...@hive13.org> wrote:

Another use proposal: We could use the space for an elaborate deathtrap. It could be a big draw at halloween. 

--

[John2pt0]

Sounds like a place to start. (There are always those big square ventilator fans, if needed.)

Speaking of a plastic sheet booth, the booth could be something that gets folded up when not it use. (Not moved anywhere, just folded out of the way.)

As far as "sparks v. solvents", one approach is to run the fan with a pulley to the motor, with the motor set outside the air/solvent flow stream.

On Friday, January 20, 2017 at 1:36:29 PM UTC-5, Nancy Graven wrote:

We have a spraybooth at work,  it's just plastic sheeting on 2x4s  with  some particle filtering, via a filter box and an exhaust vent...

Spraying in it is done for brief periods at a time,  a few minutes, then 30 minute intervals before the next few minutes of spraying.

I think making it 'water based paint' only won't work,   Rattlecans are popular. and I doubt the spray would be so concentrated as to be a fire/explosion hazard, unless people are spraying without the fan running.
I think a box fan would move enough air for most people's purposes,   plus they are cheap, are pretty standard sized, and easy to replace.

Nancy

On Fri, Jan 20, 2017 at 1:10 PM, <wi...@hive13.org> wrote:

Another use proposal: We could use the space for an elaborate deathtrap. It could be a big draw at halloween. 

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[mhorn...@yahoo.com]

Tool tower: https://www.tool-tower.com/

And 4x8 gaming table!

[Ryan Hershey]

I could get behind a few roving tool Daleks in the Hive. 

- Ry

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017, at 06:19 PM, mhorne0821 via Hive13 Hackerspace wrote:

Tool tower: https://www.tool-tower.com/

And 4x8 gaming table!

[Brad Walsh]

Would be a cool Hive project. :)

Thanks,

Brad

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 9:51 PM, Ryan Hershey <ry...@ry13.com> wrote:

I could get behind a few roving tool Daleks in the Hive. 

- Ry

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017, at 06:19 PM, mhorne0821 via Hive13 Hackerspace wrote:

Tool tower: https://www.tool-tower.com/

And 4x8 gaming table!

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[Raven Abird]

Tool Daleks!!!!

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017 at 9:51 PM, Ryan Hershey <ry...@ry13.com> wrote:

I could get behind a few roving tool Daleks in the Hive. 

- Ry

On Sat, Jan 21, 2017, at 06:19 PM, mhorne0821 via Hive13 Hackerspace wrote:

Tool tower: https://www.tool-tower.com/

And 4x8 gaming table!

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[Andrew]

I'm down the our new tool dalek overlords.  Heck, we don't even have to put them into the other room.  Also might be a better solution to the deep, messy shelves all the small tools are jammed on.

[Brent Hill]

I looked at the webpages for several of the area Hackerspaces and art collectives, (Wavepool, Level1, i3Detroit) and one thing I noticed is that most have a classroom and or art gallery space that is separate from the work areas. There was a proposal to move the fablab to the new area and make that space into a classroom but the current fablab is small and has a low ceiling. Even if the lounge and fablab were combined it would be low and small and near all the noise.

My proposal is for the new space to be a combined classroom, meeting space, lounge, art gallery, place for open mikes, performances, show and tell, lan-parties, get togethers, crafts and anything else that we could think of to do away from the noisy, dirty work area. I've brought friends to see Hive13 who were turned off by the dirty clutter. I've heard of possible grants that were lost because of the appearances.

Having a separate area would allow people to continue working when a lan-party or any other group has an event. The fab-lab or electronics area could be expanded into the current lounge area. The current meeting area could be repurposed also.

On Sun, Jan 22, 2017 at 8:33 AM, Andrew <jandr...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm down the our new tool dalek overlords.  Heck, we don't even have to put them into the other room.  Also might be a better solution to the deep, messy shelves all the small tools are jammed on.

--

[Will B]

Would it realistically be possible to have sound insulation put in the new space? As it stands, 2 people having a conversation in that area will disturb the remnant above the space.

I used the word realistically, because I'm sure if we throw 30k at the situation we could have bar fights in that room without issue.

[Will B]

*tenant

These are rented thumbs.

[Andrew (Woodshop Warden)]

Well.... it all depends.  What amount of noise do you think is reasonable to emit from the space?  How much money can we spend? 

From my limited understanding, sound insulation is pretty expensive and involves adding lots of baffles, usually in the shape of foam on the walls and ceilings to prevent sound waves from traveling.  Low frequency sounds will go further than high frequency sounds, and require a different approach. 

If I was doing it, I'd probably get some thick sheets of insulating foam, which is ~$15 per 4x8 3/4" sheet.  I can't remember hold tall the wall at the top that's shared with the tenant is, let's assume 4' or less.  So for 40' of insulation, we're talking about $75-100, which doesn't seem unreasonable, and provides some noise reduction.

OTOH, I would say that hearing people talk is a part of apartment living, and we're doing nothing wrong.  It might be different if we were using the space to hold death metal jam sessions, but so far all the applications I've heard of sound pretty quiet.  Might be different if we move the woodshop or air compressor in there, but otherwise most of the tools in the hive are relatively quiet.

[wi...@hive13.org]

I have never had to try and noise proof a room before, so I have no idea if 3/4" sheet foam would do the job or not. If anyone has experience, now would be an awesome time to shout out. (see what i did there?)

Currently we have gotten complaints from the tenant above when people have been talking outside the fablounge (new official term) after quiet hours. As the new space has less sound insulation than our current space, that would mean that space is essentially off limits during quiet hours. It could also be a source of tension during regular hours. 

The sound issue has been the largest reason that the relocation of the lounge has been objected to. 

[Dave B.]

The sound issue needs to be taken up with our landlords.  Powertools - I get it.  Talking?  Eat shit and die.  You want utter quiet?  Buy a fucking house.

-D

--

[Dave B.]

Correction - buy a fucking house in the middle of nowhere, and then you need to deal with the sounds of nature.

-D

[Timothy Gregg]

Maybe I am just less considerate but when I heard that the only reason that garden street even purchased the property that contains the hive was because their other properties were too loud, I kinda thought the tenant had no reason to complain.  Not that I haven't tried to be respectful but, it made me stop for a moment and say seriously...

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[John2pt0]

I've looked into this a little re: a basement woodshop.

To actually work, one needs resilient channel attached to the ceiling, then to attach at least 2 layers of acoustic drywall,
glued together with acoutic caulk.  One also need to seal the edges of the drywall against the room wall with acoustic caulk.

Having a room with a double shell (i.e., the inside wall studs are not in direct contact with the outside studs/frames) with insulation in between helps (heavier (more mass/volume) insulation (rock wool?) works better).
(One can check the STC (Sound Transmission Class) rating to see how effective any given material is. The walls should be acoustic drywall. The walls should be sealed to the floor with the acoustic caulk.

It helps to keep heavy machines out of the room, too, because low frequency vibrations are hard to damp out.

Or at least use heavy rubber mats under them.

Ducting, at least, should not be a problem, since we are sending air outside of our space.

And, for  maximum isolation, the door should be heavy and sealed with weather stripping, since air is a great sound conductor.

[John2pt0]

)

[John2pt0]

"...since we are <<NOT>> sending air outside of our space."

[John2pt0]

Here is a brief description of a soundproofing remodel:

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2012/11/30/soundproofing-lessons-from-a-custom-built-sound-studio

[Lorin Edwin Parker]

In sound isolation work I've done, you're looking at 

1. lots of money

2. tons of weight

3. diminishing returns in a building as old as ours

Fiberglass insulation does jack squat below 2000Hz. Double studs on rubber springs & 2 layers of drywall with vinyl, acoustic caulk, and a 4" air gap would do, but you'd have to do the walls too, not just the ceiling. 

Dave is right about the talking issue. Even legally. A healthy conversation is 70dB SPL within 3 feet or so. Noise laws and regulations are vague in most cases, but even the most stringent only start above 90dB, which is 8x the power level of conversation.

If you really want to research, Steve Klein has good info on his site: http://www.soundcontrolroom.com/plans-info-advice/details-plans

L

On Thu, Feb 2, 2017 at 7:30 AM, John2pt0 <doc...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here is a brief description of a soundproofing remodel:

http://www.finehomebuilding.com/2012/11/30/soundproofing-lessons-from-a-custom-built-sound-studio

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[Timothy Gregg]

I keep a decibel meter at the hive if anyone is ever curious how loud they or something is as well.

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[Andrew (Woodshop Warden)]

On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 5:33:25 PM UTC-5, Lorin Edwin Parker wrote:

In sound isolation work I've done, you're looking at 

1. lots of money

2. tons of weight

3. diminishing returns in a building as old as ours

Thanks, that's a better summary, though I would be clearer on "lots of money" to be in the tens of thousands, assuming you hire it done.
 

Fiberglass insulation does jack squat below 2000Hz.

Oh, fiberglass is a crappy solution, but it's a quick, cheap, and easy to install solution.  Everything else starts to get into serious money and effort.  Also most people have their hearing fall off after about 5kHz, so it's not the worst thing in the world.

In this case the ceiling matters because that's the only shared wall with Josh above us.  I think there's effectively an L shaped space with a high wall and then the ceiling/floor that's shared.

[Raven Abird]

I still wonder about where the tenant is upstairs,   the 'Space Taco' (insulated area above the wood/small tools area)  was installed when the Hive Got that space (for noise abatement to the tenant)... If noise  from people talking outside the fablab or lounge is a problem now, Why wasn't it THEN?,  Why wasn't the agreement to have space taco stuff installed there as well?  

 I suspect those areas were not in use when the Hive moved in there but they are now.

I know you can look up and see between the floorboards, especially  where the knotholes are.. So there is NOTHING but a wooden plank between us.  Air and sound pass easily through the gaps. (Trent is heating part of his space)

What  about  we talk with Josh and try laying in some carpet foam (or the thicker puzzle mat stuff) and  putting a carpet on top of it on the floor upstairs? We can ask him about color or design,  I'm not advocating installing the carpet,  but laying it in place to test.  and he gets a nicer floor,  If he really wants woodflooring, we could instead lay wood on top of the foam.  Lots of people lay carpet in without installing it.

I don't know the size of the rooms up there, but it might be possible to purchase carpet remnants of the right size, and it would cost less to try this than some of the other solutions.  Even purchasing carpet  and foam at normal prices will be cheaper, We could lay some thin plywood down first (luon, maybe) 

In the past I did some reading on soundbooths for  music recording,  it's  a matter of how MUCH you want it to isolate sound,  we probably don't need a complete cut off,  just reduction,  The carpet and foam and wood each absorb different frequencies,  it will make what is called a 'comb filter'  but it ought to dampen and block enough to make Josh happy.

He's going to be colder, though. but that may also help with heat going up there in the summer time,  

A quick check of Lowes (website) shows carpet ranging from under a dollar per square foot up to a few,  (yes you can get VERY expensive but we aren't buying that stuff)   We could try doing one room and see if it helps,  Any idea how big the rooms are up there?

 I don't know if that price includes the mat under it or not.  I would definitely lay down thin plywood or chipboard first.

Nancy

--

[Chris Anderson]

IT"S CALLED A SKY BURRITO NANCY!!!

[Raven Abird]

Burrito, Schmerrito,   (grin)  but my question stands about the upstairs apartment,..

"Is the tenant using an area for living quarters that was not previously in use?

And, Would putting down a carpet with a matt and maybe plywood under it be enough to curb the noise issue for the tenant?

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Chris Anderson <det...@gmail.com> wrote:

IT"S CALLED A SKY BURRITO NANCY!!!

--

[Andrew (Woodshop Warden)]

On Sunday, February 5, 2017 at 11:54:24 PM UTC-5, Nancy Graven wrote:

"Is the tenant using an area for living quarters that was not previously in use?

Not sure it matters.  As long as we're making reasonable use of the space, in the manner it was intended, I don't think we're crossing any lines. 

You could make a similar argument for having a the house next door to your house sit vacant for years.  Then a new family moves in, and their dog is always barking.  It's annoying, but they haven't done anything wrong.
 

And, Would putting down a carpet with a matt and maybe plywood under it be enough to curb the noise issue for the tenant?

It would help, but probably not significantly would be my guess.  This is because the material is fairly thin, though all the folds inherent in cloth will help.  Further I don't think anybody would know until it was tried.  Lots of different things effect noise and it's transmission.  It's a very inexact science at the best of times.
 

On Sun, Feb 5, 2017 at 8:45 PM, Chris Anderson <det...@gmail.com> wrote:

IT"S CALLED A SKY BURRITO NANCY!!!

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[Will B]

Doing things in another person's apartment is pretty much a no go. Ever. That is a dune sand worm level can of worms.

I plugged in 250sqr feet into an online calculator for added a dropped ceiling. That quote said ~700 in materials and ~700 for labor. Which also matches with estimates of $2-$5 per sqrft.

I imagine we would have the skill to put a drop ceiling in, assuming we had people willing to do the labor. (I would not due to my back injuries and that being that high up would cause a constant stream of poop to come out of me.)

So that is at least a rough number to start from in a discussion. And assuming my random guess if 250 sqrft is close.

[Lorin Edwin Parker]

Okay, Andrew, here's your justifications:

Trust me, my professional field of specialization is acoustics, electroacoustics, and psychoacoustics. Please excuse me if I get touchy in this area, but I didn't study it for 10+ years, publish, and become a professor without some god-damned effort. 

First, I think you meant that our hearing drops off above 15kHz, not 5kHz. Human hearing can extend into 20+ kHz in young people / children, however pressbycusis due to exposure to loud noise and resulting ear damage causes this high frequency loss. 

The most sensitive range of hearing in humans is 4kHz to 6kHz. So, we actually hear 5kHz as 2x as loud as any other frequency. See the equal loudness contour -- 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=imgres&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwji_4_Q4_vRAhWIKCYKHfA_BBMQjRwIBw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FEqual-loudness_contour&psig=AFQjCNGr5v1ur1mNKKOoZsS8J5upSPxmRQ&ust=1486481064897910

This is the critical band for speech ineligibility. Humans evolved to have high sensitivity in this region to communicate. It is also critical band for masking phenomena, and intra-aural localization. 

If we're talking about material only, we need to find the attenuation in sabins. A sabin is the amount of energy converted to heat across a barrier of dissimilar material of a given boundary area. Because sabine's equation requires knowledge of air volume, absorptive surface area, and time (RT60), we can't just get a convenient percentage value or any sort of useful sound proofy-ness indicator that makes sense in multiple situations. 

But, yes, sound absorption is related to a material property (absorption coefficient). The misconception is that the absorption coefficient is a percentage of the sound absorbed by a material. For instance, the absorption coefficient of 2.5" of R8 fiberglass batt is about .92 at 1kHz . This does NOT mean that 92% of the sound is absorbed. It simply means that .92 is factored into sabine's equation. 

That means that in one 32ft roll, we've got about 13.8 sabins of absorption. 

For fancy, 10cm thick acoustic foam it would be 14.85 sabins

What does this tell us? It ONLY tells us that acoustic foam works better than fiberglass batt, but not by a whole lot, except that we only need 1cm of foam vs 2" of batt. 

I STILL don't know how much the sound is deadened in our case. I'd have to know volume of the space, surface areas, average sound pressure level, current absorption of surfaces, resonances, and time variables. 

I'm actually trying to say is that this is not so simple, and is virtually impossible to predict. Furthermore, the absorption of any given material means very little, actually. Much less than the structure of the building we can't change. 

Finally, I'll put it this way. In order to significantly deaden sound between the two spaces, we would also have to eliminate heat loss between the two spaces. The two are related, and I think everyone can grasp that we're not going to make our space or even a part of it LEED certifiable any time soon. 

Finally, sound is not heat. ANY air gap, whatsoever, even just an inch, that is not sealed will negate most of the work. Hence, Nancy's point that there are gaps in the floor / ceiling. Ever single one would have to be closed with caulk before any insane amount of batting would do much. 

So, my estimate would be to decouple the ceiling and shared walls with floating rubber mounts, double stud and frame (not drop ceiling). 16" air gap. Double gypsum acoustic grade board. Packed sand and rubber at floor couplings, and vinyl seal with acoustic caulk. So, the answer is so expensive that my conclusion is:

Screw it, it's hopeless. 

If you really wanted a number, we'd probably be looking at more than $70k (DIY cost) to be able to run the bandsaw at night. At the very least, the cost of make a new timber framed ceiling for our ENTIRE ceiling space, not just the area under this dude's apt., and two layers of sheetrock. 

If folks want to put up insulation, I won't stop you, but there is no significant return on investment. 

Lorin

P.S. I went way too overboard here, but I think my point is made. 

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[Lorin Edwin Parker]

Sorry, meant 2-4k is most sensitive. 5k is adjacent knee area, so also sensitive, but not most sensitive. 

[Andrew (Woodshop Warden)]

On Monday, February 6, 2017 at 11:53:46 AM UTC-5, Lorin Edwin Parker wrote:

Okay, Andrew, here's your justifications:

Trust me, my professional field of specialization is acoustics, electroacoustics, and psychoacoustics. Please excuse me if I get touchy in this area, but I didn't study it for 10+ years, publish, and become a professor without some god-damned effort. 

Sorry, I take it all back.  Lorin can clearly guess.  Insert the wayne/garth we're not worthy.  I bow to your authority.  (And no sarcasm here)
 

If you really wanted a number, we'd probably be looking at more than $70k (DIY cost) to be able to run the bandsaw at night. At the very least, the cost of make a new timber framed ceiling for our ENTIRE ceiling space, not just the area under this dude's apt., and two layers of sheetrock. 

If folks want to put up insulation, I won't stop you, but there is no significant return on investment. 

Okay, my mistake, I thought there might be a slight amount of return, for a slight investment.  Thanks for posting a more in depth analysis, I appreciate it.

[Will B]

Lorin, LTDR Version?

In your opinion, what level of investment would be required to make it so we could have people in that new area and block enough sound that exited conversations will not disturb the resident above that space?

[Lorin Edwin Parker]

I'll bring in my meters and equipment and make an assessment of the space today. That helps a lot.

Making it a meeting area is not the biggest deal in the world. Simply putting stuff in the room will do more than any amount of padding on the walls. Furniture absorbs and breaks up sound well, especially couches.

Also, I'm with Dave B on the "conversation" issue. If I live in an apartment in an old building, I expect not to have a neigbor who uses a radial arm saw at 1am. However, the occasional party, argument, etc -- I do expect that.

Lorin

[Lorin Edwin Parker]

This may sound odd, but I could make a sound meter that flashes lights or other indicator (non-loud) if the dB RTA goes above a threshold at a given hour. Not being loud may be the best answer, and reminders don't hurt.

Lorin

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