Making racks for a cider press

[Anthony Wood]

Hello,

I've joined the group as I'm helping my son with a follow up to last
years modest success with cider making and have read through many of
the informative posts on racks but still have a couple of specific
questions.

He's built an a press by means of a tray and a frame with a plan to
use a car jack to apply pressure to "cheeses". But we're stuck on how
to make the racks which will need to be about 40cm sq to fit the
tray. I thought of plywood with some drainage holes drilled in - but
have been warned that the plywood might react with the juice. But if
we go to the expense of hardwood then we will want to treat and clean
the hardwood so it can be reused next year.

Any suggestions will be welcome but here are the specific questions:

Can the rack be made of Sapele (which seems to be the cheapest
hardwood)?
Will a thickness of 20mmx12mm be sufficient for the slats? (We're
planning to space them 5mm apart)
Is there a glue we can safely use to construct the rack with?
If not glue then what type of screw is recommended?
Can the wood be treated to protect it...if so what with?
Will cleaning the racks just with water before storing be sufficient?

I know from a money perspective we might have bought a press with what
we're spending on materials but that was never the point anyway!

Thank you in advance.

Anthony

[Andrew Lea]

On 20/08/2011 11:16, Anthony Wood wrote:

> I've joined the group as I'm helping my son with a follow up to last
> years modest success with cider making and have read through many of
> the informative posts on racks but still have a couple of specific
> questions.

Welcome. It is exactly 20 years since I built my own racks (for a press
I no longer have), but these would be my answers:

> Can the rack be made of Sapele (which seems to be the cheapest
> hardwood)?

Mine were made of rattan strips. I'd think any hardwood should do, even
a firm softwood so long as well protected by PU.

> Will a thickness of 20mmx12mm be sufficient for the slats? (We're
> planning to space them 5mm apart)

My slats were more like 35mm wide x 5mm thick with 5 mm gaps between
them. The commercial Voran ones are much the same. The eventual rack
thickness will of course be doubled. 24mm thick is very thick for a rack.

> Is there a glue we can safely use to construct the rack with?

Can't be sure now if I glued every intersection - maybe just at the
edges. I used a regular resin-based wood glue for that and also the
juice tray.

> If not glue then what type of screw is recommended?

I used chrome plated screws. I'd rather have had stainless but could not
buy any short enough at the time. I think you can get short SS screws
from Screwfix now.

> Can the wood be treated to protect it...if so what with?

I treated mine with 3 layers of PU 'yacht varnish', left to fully cure.
The end grain is the most vulnerable part. The Voran racks are
untreated acacia AFAIK with SS rivets.

> Will cleaning the racks just with water before storing be sufficient?

You should hose with water after every use - don't delay even a few
hours or the juice and pulp particles will start to set firm and become
nuclei for mould growth. At the end of each season, scrub well and maybe
give a spray with SO2 solution to inhibit mould growth. Allow to dry
fully before putting away in store.

>
> I know from a money perspective we might have bought a press with what
> we're spending on materials but that was never the point anyway!

Press making can be fun. Mine was also a father / son operation (though
the son in question always claims I never gave him enough credit for his
part!) But it also takes a lot of time to make racks!

I think if I were doing it again i would definitely look at routed
plastic (cue Ray?). Moulded plastic trays are common in the US but not
on sale in the UK AFAIK. It is a myth that juice flows down from rack to
rack internally; it actually finds the path of least resistance which
means it flows horizontally out to the edges of each rack where it then
drips down to the next. I now believe that a solid rack with drainage
channels routed or moulded in is as good as the conventional 'slatted
rack' profile.

Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Anthony Wood wrote:
> He's built an a press by means of a tray and a frame with a plan to
> use a car jack to apply pressure to "cheeses".  But we're stuck on how
> to make the racks which will need to be about 40cm sq to fit the
> tray.  I thought of plywood with some drainage holes drilled in  - but
> have been warned that the plywood might react with the juice. But if
> we go to the expense of hardwood then we will want to treat and clean
> the hardwood so it can be reused next year.

See this picture that shows how I built my racks
https://picasaweb.google.com/111554988849488925721/ApplePress#5474300849573979922

They are made from slats 20 x 6 mm glued on a thin plywood with
spacing 5-6mm. Slats do not really need to be hardwood.
Standard wood glue is fine.
I used floor and furniture wood varnish, very tough. This is oil based
varnish and requires a long time to cure fully - we are talking weeks
before the smell goes away.

Hope this helps...
Claude

[Jez Howat]

Andrew wrote: "I used chrome plated screws. I'd rather have had stainless

but could not buy any short enough at the time. I think you can get short SS
screws from Screwfix now."

I used SS rivets for my racks - they work really well and have lasted just
fine. Before I riveted, I bevelled the hole, so that the rivet isn't proud
of the rack surface.

I used Beech for most of the racks, but have made a few more from marine ply
too. These aren't as traditional looking or as easy to clean, and they are
less rigid. However, they do the job just as well.

Rack making is kind of fun, but also a lot of work and faff (my best
technical term for the process!)

All the best

Jez

[Richard Reeves]

FWIW: I bypassed the conundrum of what wood/glue/varnish combo to use
by making my racks from 1/4" HDPE pegboard and stainless hardware.
Conveniently pre-drilled for both drainage as well as attaching the
slats made from the trimmings, they work well enough and clean up
easily.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rkreeves/6062001439/

Quick to make, not exactly traditional, nor are they a pleasure to
behold, but functional.
HTH, Richard

[CiderHead]

I managed to get a whole load of second-hand 7-layer plywood which was
formerly used for advertising hoardings and drilled 1 cm holes all
over each one, spaced about 2.5 cm apart. I also cut channels on both
sides to aid drainage. I then coated them with polyurathane. It took
ages to do! They work but...

1) they are very difficult to keep clean. The holes often get clogged
and any minor irregularity (and there are lots of them) in any of the
holes gathers small amounts of pulp.

2) keeping them fully sterile requires soaking them for some while in
sodium metabisulphite both before and after the pressing. Even with a
PU coating, some of this soaks into the plywood and is starting to
cause the sheets to split and warp.

My conclusion is that this really isn't the way to go. I do like the
idea that Richard Reeves has posted. In this matter, I'm not too
concerned with being "traditional". After a hard day's pressing and
with the sun gone down I want the kit to be easily cleansable. Plywood
isn't.

Cheers,

Martin

> > Anthony- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Tim]

STRAW, enough said :)

 

Tim in Dorset

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[Raymond Blockley]

Catching up after a long weekend away.

 

My two penn'orth:

 

Plastic is fine providing the thickness is good (ie: no more than 6mm) and you get something like HDPE or HDPP (HD= High Density; PE = Poly Ethylene; PP = Poly Propylene).

Simple shallow grooves cut with a circular saw will suffice. I've just "passed on" my HDPE plastic racks after some 6 or 7 years use - just as new.

 

Ply: Get Birch WBP ply - again 6mm is ample. Shallow grooves cut with circular saw, plenty of coats of a sealant that is food-grade / food-safe. Some folks use ply racks with no grooves to great effect.

 

I would not bother with hardwood or softwood. Birch WBP ply is strong and flexible with none of the disadvantages of solid timber.

 

Just my viewpoint of course.

 

Straw? Wheat, Oat or Barley...?

 

Cheers,

Ray.  

--
Ray B

[Carl LeClair]

Ray Wrote:

> Plastic is fine providing the thickness is good (ie: no more than 6mm) and
> you get something like HDPE or HDPP (HD= High Density; PE = Poly Ethylene;
> PP = Poly Propylene).
> Simple shallow grooves cut with a circular saw will suffice. I've just
> "passed on" my HDPE plastic racks after some 6 or 7 years use - just as new.

This is very interesting...
What depth of cut are using and are you doing both sides?
I was contemplating for the future, making these out of ( Corian )
counter top material.
Thought that I would need 12mm( 1/2" ) thickness instead of the 6mm as
I was planing on a
4mm ( 1/8" ) depth of saw blade cut on both sides for a 4mm ( 1/4" )
thickness remaining?
I was concerned about the material cracking if I did not leave a hefty
center of material?

Regards,

Carl

On Aug 21, 10:25 am, Raymond Blockley <raymond_block...@sky.com>
wrote:

> Catching up after a long weekend away.
>
> My two penn'orth:
>
> Plastic is fine providing the thickness is good (ie: no more than 6mm) and
> you get something like HDPE or HDPP (HD= High Density; PE = Poly Ethylene;
> PP = Poly Propylene).
> Simple shallow grooves cut with a circular saw will suffice. I've just
> "passed on" my HDPE plastic racks after some 6 or 7 years use - just as new.
>
> Ply: Get Birch WBP ply - again 6mm is ample. Shallow grooves cut with
> circular saw, plenty of coats of a sealant that is food-grade / food-safe.
> Some folks use ply racks with no grooves to great effect.
>
> I would not bother with hardwood or softwood. Birch WBP ply is strong and
> flexible with none of the disadvantages of solid timber.
>
> Just my viewpoint of course.
>
> Straw? Wheat, Oat or Barley...?
>
> Cheers,
> Ray.
>
> On 20 August 2011 21:59, Tim <t...@marshwoodvalecider.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

> > STRAW, enough said :)****
>
> > ** **
>
> > Tim in Dorset****
>
> > ** **
>
> > ** **
>
> > ** **
>
> > ** **

>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> > cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of CiderHead
> > Sent: 20 August 2011 21:49
> > To: Cider Workshop
> > Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Making racks for a cider press
>

> > ** **
>
> > I managed to get a whole load of second-hand 7-layer plywood which was****
>
> > formerly used for advertising hoardings and drilled 1 cm holes all****
>
> > over each one, spaced about 2.5 cm apart. I also cut channels on both****
>
> > sides to aid drainage. I then coated them with polyurathane. It took****
>
> > ages to do! They work but...****
>
> > ** **
>
> > 1) they are very difficult to keep clean. The holes often get clogged****
>
> > and any minor irregularity (and there are lots of them) in any of the****
>
> > holes gathers small amounts of pulp.****
>
> > ** **
>
> > 2) keeping them fully sterile requires soaking them for some while in****
>
> > sodium metabisulphite both before and after the pressing. Even with a****
>
> > PU coating, some of this soaks into the plywood and is starting to****
>
> > cause the sheets to split and warp.****
>
> > ** **
>
> > My conclusion is that this really isn't the way to go. I do like the****
>
> > idea that Richard Reeves has posted. In this matter, I'm not too****
>
> > concerned with being "traditional". After a hard day's pressing and****
>
> > with the sun gone down I want the kit to be easily cleansable. Plywood****
>
> > isn't.****
>
> > ** **
>
> > Cheers,****
>
> > ** **
>
> > Martin****
>
> > ** **
>
> > On Aug 20, 5:49 pm, Richard Reeves <richardjayree...@gmail.com> wrote:****
>
> > > FWIW: I bypassed the conundrum of what wood/glue/varnish combo to use***
> > *
>
> > > by making my racks from 1/4" HDPE pegboard and stainless hardware.****
>
> > > Conveniently pre-drilled for both drainage as well as attaching the****
>
> > > slats made from the trimmings, they work well enough and clean up****
>
> > > easily.****
>
> > >** **
>
> > >http://www.flickr.com/photos/rkreeves/6062001439/****
>
> > >** **
>
> > > Quick to make, not exactly traditional, nor are they a pleasure to****
>
> > > behold, but functional.****
>
> > > HTH, Richard****
>
> > >** **
>
> > > On Aug 20, 3:16 am, Anthony Wood <anth...@nettlemedia.co.uk> wrote:****
>
> > >** **
>
> > >** **
>
> > >** **
>
> > > > Hello,****
>
> > >** **
>
> > > > I've joined the group as I'm helping my son with a follow up to last**
> > **
>
> > > > years modest success with cider making and have read through many of**
> > **
>
> > > > the informative posts on racks but still have a couple of specific****
>
> > > > questions.****
>
> > >** **
>
> > > > He's built an a press by means of a tray and a frame with a plan to***
> > *

>
> > > > use a car jack to apply pressure to "cheeses".  But we're stuck on how

> > ****
>
> > > > to make the racks which will need to be about 40cm sq to fit the****

>
> > > > tray.  I thought of plywood with some drainage holes drilled in  - but

> > ****
>
> > > > have been warned that the plywood might react with the juice. But if**
> > **
>
> > > > we go to the expense of hardwood then we will want to treat and clean*
> > ***
>
> > > > the hardwood so it can be reused next year.****
>
> > >** **
>
> > > > Any suggestions will be welcome but here are the specific questions:**
> > **
>
> > >** **
>
> > > > Can the rack be made of Sapele (which seems to be the cheapest****
>
> > > > hardwood)?****
>
> > > > Will a thickness of 20mmx12mm be sufficient for the slats? (We're****
>
> > > > planning to space them 5mm apart)****
>
> > > > Is there a glue we can safely use to construct the rack with?****
>
> > > > If not glue then what type of screw is recommended?****
>
> > > > Can the wood be treated to protect it...if so what with?****
>
> > > > Will cleaning the racks just with water before storing be sufficient?*
> > ***
>
> > >** **

>
> > > > I know from a money perspective we might have bought a press with what

> > ****
>
> > > > we're spending on materials but that was never the point anyway!****
>
> > >** **
>
> > > > Thank you in advance.****
>
> > >** **
>
> > > > Anthony- Hide quoted text -****
>
> > >** **
>
> > > - Show quoted text -****
>
> > ** **
>
> > -- ****

>
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

> > "Cider Workshop" group.****
>
> > To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.****

>
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.****

>
> > For more options, visit this group at

> >http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en.****

[Raymond Blockley]

Yes, both sides, but at 90 degrees / perpendicular (thus avoiding cracking). HDPE / HDPP / Birch WBP Ply are flexible. The grooves can be very shallow and if they meet-up (as mine did) so providing lots of little square holes it is no loss, but evidence seems to suggest that no holes is best. I've seen very good and efficient press racks made out of solid ply with no grooves at all.

 

I wouldn't go for a thickness over 10mm (3/8") if it was me. A lot depends on the 'throat' clearance of your press of course, as many thick racks takes up a lot of cheese space...

 

Ray.  

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Carl LeClair wrote:
> I was contemplating for the future, making these out of ( Corian )
> counter top material.
> Thought that I would need 12mm( 1/2" ) thickness instead of the 6mm as
> I was planing on a
> 4mm ( 1/8" ) depth of saw blade cut on both sides for a 4mm ( 1/4" )
> thickness remaining?

Carl,
I am not 100% sure, but I would think corian is much more rigid than
HDPE. Hence it would be more susceptible to cracking. For a rack, you
do not need rigidity - if the rack bends easily, it will comply with
the masses of apples being pressed and will not crack! Also, I do not
think saw cuts would be necessary on both sides. The side that looks
downwards will not profit much from cuts.
Claude

[Tim]

Barley first, oats second as usually longer and nicer to work with. ;)

 

Tim.

[Alasdair Keddie]

Interesting subject as I'm looking in to sorting my racking out this week.

Does anyone have a good (cheap) source of food grade HDPE sheets that could be used for racks?  I'm looking for something around 450 x 450 or 18" x 18".  Alternatively, purpose made HDPE cider racks would be handy too.

I've tried googling and ebay but not much has come up that fits the bill.

[Andrew Lea]

On 21/08/2011 21:52, Alasdair Keddie wrote:
> Interesting subject as I'm looking in to sorting my racking out this week.
>
> Does anyone have a good (cheap) source of food grade HDPE sheets that
> could be used for racks? I'm looking for something around 450 x 450 or
> 18" x 18". Alternatively, purpose made HDPE cider racks would be handy too.

You don't say which country you are in but if you are in the US you can
buy these moulded racks
https://www.oescoinc.com/cider-press-poly-rack-p-2425.html?osCsid=7dcad5feef8450dea1376cb4e6d6899a
Though at $74 each (if I read it right) they are hardly cheap!

Have never seen their like for sale in the UK anywhere.

[Nat West]

Now why would he be in the US with a name like Alasdair? :)

-Nat West, USA

[Anthony Wood]

Very many thanks for all the informative reply's...it's a great help.

Anthony

[Michael Cobb]

>> Ray Wrote:

> I've
> seen very good and efficient press racks made out of solid ply with no
> grooves at all.
>
> I wouldn't go for a thickness over 10mm (3/8") if it was me. A lot depends
> on the 'throat' clearance of your press of course, as many thick racks
> takes
> up a lot of cheese space...
>
> Ray.

Andrew also mentioned that holes are not necessary. Cleaning the outside
of racks is not too difficult but a few years ago now I wondered about the
minute gaps between the opposed slats. There has been talk of soaking in
sulphite which will get in these gaps but requires a large vessel to take
the racks. Concerned about this, particularly when pressing for juice
rather than cider, I decided to try enclosing the racks. I bought some
large poly bags that take the rack and put on two in opposite directions.
This means I have less worry about juice contacting the racks if the
cleaning is not perfect. It also proves that holes between the levels are
not neccessary, the juice flows down the outside of the cheeses. I
suspect that the weave of the press cloths (or the straw) is sufficient to
provide a channel for the juice to migrate from the centre of the cheese
to the outside. If you do want to make channels thin ones are probably
better than wide ones so that the cheese does not distort into the channel
and thus block it.

Michael Cobb

[Raymond Blockley]

I'm afraid that sourcing HDPE / HDPP sheet in the UK is not easy when you have cost in mind... I was very lucky getting hold of my sheet of HDPE when I did, as the rapid rise in the price of oil has of course pushed up the cost of all plastics, some more than others. I used a firm in South Yorks, UK but that was some 8 or 9 years ago now.

 

You may have better luck googling for plastic moulding companies, especially those who mould trays and racks or such like. You may have to be a bit more inventive than I was and see if you can adapt components moulded for other purposes.

 

Ray. 

[Tim]

I remember seeing a small press a while back, they had used the lattice work bottoms out of bread trays, worked really well and if you can find them should be very cheap.

 

Tim in Dorset

[Raymond Blockley]

Tim - That's the kind of stuff I was thinking of. Plus if you can get hold of the 'reject' mouldings which are bit warped or have too much 'flash', a bit of work with a craft knife and a little ingenuity can provide you with some cheap racks. Some compromise on size or investing in some aluminium rivets / stainless nuts & bolts can save a lot of hassle for a modest cost.

 

Ray. 

[Alasdair Keddie]

Apologies, I should have introduced my self on my first post.  I am based in Bournemouth, Dorset in the UK and in my second year of pressing cider in my back yard.  We're on our 3rd home made press now after breaking the last 2, the latest is made out of railway sleepers reinforced with scaffold poles (just to be sure).  Andrew's book on Craft Cider making is our bible at the moment and has helped us refine our process a great deal

Looks like I may have to give up on HDPE for my racks then.  Bread trays sound like a great idea as they would be tough and food safe, I'll have to see what's available.  Out of interest, where are you in Dorset Tim?

On 22 August 2011 09:43, Tim <t...@marshwoodvalecider.com> wrote:

[Tim]

Near Bridport

 

www.marshwoodvalecider.com

[Raymond Blockley]

Alasdair - try hunting round for a local bakery, the larger the better. We have a huge Hovis bakery a couple of miles away and they get through plenty of these bread trays.

 

Ray.

[Mark Evens]

I'm not sure it's necessary to cut grooves in the HDPE sheet, in which
case you can get away with 4mm thick, which is quite a bit cheaper.
There are a number of on-line vendors. Mine cost about £4.50 each last
year, but now they seem to have gone up quite a lot in price.
Mark

On Aug 22, 10:17 am, Raymond Blockley <raymond_block...@sky.com>
wrote:

> Alasdair - try hunting round for a local bakery, the larger the better. We
> have a huge Hovis bakery a couple of miles away and they get through plenty
> of these bread trays.
>
> Ray.
>

> On 22 August 2011 10:09, Alasdair Keddie <alasdair.ked...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Apologies, I should have introduced my self on my first post.  I am based
> > in Bournemouth, Dorset in the UK and in my second year of pressing cider in
> > my back yard.  We're on our 3rd home made press now after breaking the last
> > 2, the latest is made out of railway sleepers reinforced with scaffold poles
> > (just to be sure).  Andrew's book on Craft Cider making is our bible at the
> > moment and has helped us refine our process a great deal
>
> > Looks like I may have to give up on HDPE for my racks then.  Bread trays
> > sound like a great idea as they would be tough and food safe, I'll have to
> > see what's available.  Out of interest, where are you in Dorset Tim?
>
> > On 22 August 2011 09:43, Tim <t...@marshwoodvalecider.com> wrote:
>
> >> I remember seeing a small press a while back, they had used the lattice
> >> work bottoms out of bread trays, worked really well and if you can find them

> >> should be very cheap.****

>
> >> ** **
>
> >> Tim in Dorset****
>
> >> ** **
>
> >> ** **
>
> >> ** **
>

> >> *From:* cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> >> cider-w...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Raymond Blockley
> >> *Sent:* 22 August 2011 09:37
>
> >> *To:* cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> >> *Subject:* Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Making racks for a cider press****
>
> >> ** **

>
> >> I'm afraid that sourcing HDPE / HDPP sheet in the UK is not easy when you
> >> have cost in mind... I was very lucky getting hold of my sheet of HDPE when
> >> I did, as the rapid rise in the price of oil has of course pushed up the
> >> cost of all plastics, some more than others. I used a firm in South Yorks,

> >> UK but that was some 8 or 9 years ago now. ****
>
> >>  ****

>
> >> You may have better luck googling for plastic moulding companies,
> >> especially those who mould trays and racks or such like. You may have to be
> >> a bit more inventive than I was and see if you can adapt components moulded

> >> for other purposes. ****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> Ray. ****
>
> >> On 21 August 2011 21:52, Alasdair Keddie <alasdair.ked...@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:****

>
> >> Interesting subject as I'm looking in to sorting my racking out this week.
>
> >> Does anyone have a good (cheap) source of food grade HDPE sheets that
> >> could be used for racks?  I'm looking for something around 450 x 450 or 18"
> >> x 18".  Alternatively, purpose made HDPE cider racks would be handy too.
>
> >> I've tried googling and ebay but not much has come up that fits the bill.

> >> ****
>
> >> ** **
>
> >> On 21 August 2011 21:10, Tim <t...@marshwoodvalecider.com> wrote:****
>
> >> Barley first, oats second as usually longer and nicer to work with. ;)***
> >> *
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> Tim.****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> *From:* cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> >> cider-w...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Raymond Blockley
> >> *Sent:* 21 August 2011 15:25
> >> *To:* cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> >> *Subject:* Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Making racks for a cider press****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> Catching up after a long weekend away.****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> My two penn'orth: ****
>
> >>  ****

>
> >> Plastic is fine providing the thickness is good (ie: no more than 6mm) and
> >> you get something like HDPE or HDPP (HD= High Density; PE = Poly Ethylene;

> >> PP = Poly Propylene). ****

>
> >> Simple shallow grooves cut with a circular saw will suffice. I've just
> >> "passed on" my HDPE plastic racks after some 6 or 7 years use - just as new.

> >> ****
>
> >>  ****

>
> >> Ply: Get Birch WBP ply - again 6mm is ample. Shallow grooves cut with
> >> circular saw, plenty of coats of a sealant that is food-grade / food-safe.

> >> Some folks use ply racks with no grooves to great effect.****
>
> >>  ****

>
> >> I would not bother with hardwood or softwood. Birch WBP ply is strong and

> >> flexible with none of the disadvantages of solid timber.****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> Just my viewpoint of course.****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> Straw? Wheat, Oat or Barley...?****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> Cheers,****
>
> >> Ray.  ****
>
> >> On 20 August 2011 21:59, Tim <t...@marshwoodvalecider.com> wrote:****
>
> >> STRAW, enough said :)****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> Tim in Dorset****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >>  ****

>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:
> >> cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of CiderHead
> >> Sent: 20 August 2011 21:49
> >> To: Cider Workshop

> >> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Making racks for a cider press****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> I managed to get a whole load of second-hand 7-layer plywood which was***
> >> *
>
> >> formerly used for advertising hoardings and drilled 1 cm holes all****
>
> >> over each one, spaced about 2.5 cm apart. I also cut channels on both****
>
> >> sides to aid drainage. I then coated them with polyurathane. It took****
>
> >> ages to do! They work but...****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> 1) they are very difficult to keep clean. The holes often get clogged****
>
> >> and any minor irregularity (and there are lots of them) in any of the****
>
> >> holes gathers small amounts of pulp.****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> 2) keeping them fully sterile requires soaking them for some while in****
>
> >> sodium metabisulphite both before and after the pressing. Even with a****
>
> >> PU coating, some of this soaks into the plywood and is starting to****
>
> >> cause the sheets to split and warp.****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> My conclusion is that this really isn't the way to go. I do like the****
>
> >> idea that Richard Reeves has posted. In this matter, I'm not too****
>
> >> concerned with being "traditional". After a hard day's pressing and****

>
> >> with the sun gone down I want the kit to be easily cleansable. Plywood***
> >> *
>
> >> isn't.****
>

> >>  ****
>
> >> Cheers,****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> Martin****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> On Aug 20, 5:49 pm, Richard Reeves <richardjayree...@gmail.com> wrote:***
> >> *
>
> >> > FWIW: I bypassed the conundrum of what wood/glue/varnish combo to use**
> >> **
>
> >> > by making my racks from 1/4" HDPE pegboard and stainless hardware.****
>
> >> > Conveniently pre-drilled for both drainage as well as attaching the****
>
> >> > slats made from the trimmings, they work well enough and clean up****
>
> >> > easily.****
>
> >> > ****
>
> >> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/rkreeves/6062001439/****
>
> >> > ****

>
> >> > Quick to make, not exactly traditional, nor are they a pleasure to****
>
> >> > behold, but functional.****
>
> >> > HTH, Richard****
>
> >> > ****
>

> >> > On Aug 20, 3:16 am, Anthony Wood <anth...@nettlemedia.co.uk> wrote:****
>
> >> > ****
>
> >> > ****
>
> >> > ****
>
> >> > > Hello,****
>
> >> > ****
>
> >> > > I've joined the group as I'm helping my son with a follow up to last*
> >> ***
>
> >> > > years modest success with cider making and have read through many of*
> >> ***
>
> >> > > the informative posts on racks but still have a couple of specific***
> >> *
>
> >> > > questions.****
>
> >> > ****
>
> >> > > He's built an a press by means of a tray and a frame with a plan to**
> >> **

>
> >> > > use a car jack to apply pressure to "cheeses".  But we're stuck on how

> >> ****
>
> >> > > to make the racks which will need to be about 40cm sq to fit the****

>
> >> > > tray.  I thought of plywood with some drainage holes drilled in  - but

> >> ****
>
> >> > > have been warned that the plywood might react with the juice. But if*
> >> ***

>
> >> > > we go to the expense of hardwood then we will want to treat and clean

> >> ****
>
> >> > > the hardwood so it can be reused next year.****
>
> >> > ****
>
> >> > > Any suggestions will be welcome but here are the specific questions:*
> >> ***
>
> >> > ****
>
> >> > > Can the rack be made of Sapele (which seems to be the cheapest****
>
> >> > > hardwood)?****
>
> >> > > Will a thickness of 20mmx12mm be sufficient for the slats? (We're****
>
> >> > > planning to space them 5mm apart)****
>
> >> > > Is there a glue we can safely use to construct the rack with?****
>
> >> > > If not glue then what type of screw is recommended?****
>
> >> > > Can the wood be treated to protect it...if so what with?****

>
> >> > > Will cleaning the racks just with water before storing be sufficient?

> >> ****
>
> >> > ****

>
> >> > > I know from a money perspective we might have bought a press with what

> >> ****
>
> >> > > we're spending on materials but that was never the point anyway!****
>
> >> > ****
>
> >> > > Thank you in advance.****
>
> >> > ****

>
> >> > > Anthony- Hide quoted text -****
>
> >> > ****
>
> >> > - Show quoted text -****
>
> >>  ****
>
> >> -- ****
>

> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

> >> "Cider Workshop" group.****
>
> >> To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.****

>
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> >> cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.****

>
> >> For more options, visit this group at

> >>http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en.****

>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "Cider Workshop" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
> >> For more options, visit this group at

> >>http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en.****
>
> >> --
> >> Ray B****

>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "Cider Workshop" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
> >> For more options, visit this group at

> >>http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en.****
>
> >> -- ****

>
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "Cider Workshop" group.
> >> To post to
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[CiderHead]

On Aug 22, 8:43 am, "Michael Cobb" <ci...@buhund.clara.net> wrote:
>There has been talk of soaking in
> sulphite which will get in these gaps but requires a large vessel to take
> the racks.  

I cork the outlet of the juice collection tray and fill that with
steriliser solution. I can sterilise/clean them two at a time that
way.
Martin

[Matt Helliwell]

I got mine from the stock clearance area of this lot: http://www.directplasticsonline.co.uk/StockClearance

However it took 2 or 3 orders to get enough sheets from the clearance section so you might be a bit late.

Matt

On Aug 21, 2011 11:35 PM, "Alasdair Keddie" <alasdai...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Interesting subject as I'm looking in to sorting my racking out this week.
>
> Does anyone have a good (cheap) source of food grade HDPE sheets that could
> be used for racks? I'm looking for something around 450 x 450 or 18" x
> 18". Alternatively, purpose made HDPE cider racks would be handy too.
>
> I've tried googling and ebay but not much has come up that fits the bill.
>
> On 21 August 2011 21:10, Tim <t...@marshwoodvalecider.com> wrote:
>

>> Barley first, oats second as usually longer and nicer to work with. ;)****
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> Tim.****

>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> ** **
>>
>> *From:* cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:
>> cider-w...@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Raymond Blockley

>> *Sent:* 21 August 2011 15:25
>> *To:* cider-w...@googlegroups.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Making racks for a cider press****
>>
>> ** **

>>
>> Catching up after a long weekend away.****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> My two penn'orth: ****
>>
>> ****
>>

>> Plastic is fine providing the thickness is good (ie: no more than 6mm) and
>> you get something like HDPE or HDPP (HD= High Density; PE = Poly Ethylene;

>> PP = Poly Propylene). ****

>>
>> Simple shallow grooves cut with a circular saw will suffice. I've just
>> "passed on" my HDPE plastic racks after some 6 or 7 years use - just as new.

>> ****
>>
>> ****

>>
>> Ply: Get Birch WBP ply - again 6mm is ample. Shallow grooves cut with
>> circular saw, plenty of coats of a sealant that is food-grade / food-safe.

>> Some folks use ply racks with no grooves to great effect.****
>>
>> ****

>>
>> I would not bother with hardwood or softwood. Birch WBP ply is strong and

>> flexible with none of the disadvantages of solid timber.****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Just my viewpoint of course.****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Straw? Wheat, Oat or Barley...?****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Cheers,****
>>
>> Ray. ****
>>
>> On 20 August 2011 21:59, Tim <t...@marshwoodvalecider.com> wrote:****
>>
>> STRAW, enough said :)****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Tim in Dorset****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> ****
>>

>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:
>> cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of CiderHead
>> Sent: 20 August 2011 21:49
>> To: Cider Workshop

>> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Making racks for a cider press****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> I managed to get a whole load of second-hand 7-layer plywood which was****
>>
>> formerly used for advertising hoardings and drilled 1 cm holes all****
>>
>> over each one, spaced about 2.5 cm apart. I also cut channels on both****
>>
>> sides to aid drainage. I then coated them with polyurathane. It took****
>>
>> ages to do! They work but...****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> 1) they are very difficult to keep clean. The holes often get clogged****
>>
>> and any minor irregularity (and there are lots of them) in any of the****
>>
>> holes gathers small amounts of pulp.****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> 2) keeping them fully sterile requires soaking them for some while in****
>>
>> sodium metabisulphite both before and after the pressing. Even with a****
>>
>> PU coating, some of this soaks into the plywood and is starting to****
>>
>> cause the sheets to split and warp.****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> My conclusion is that this really isn't the way to go. I do like the****
>>
>> idea that Richard Reeves has posted. In this matter, I'm not too****
>>
>> concerned with being "traditional". After a hard day's pressing and****
>>
>> with the sun gone down I want the kit to be easily cleansable. Plywood****

>>
>> isn't.****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Cheers,****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> Martin****
>>
>> ****
>>

>> On Aug 20, 5:49 pm, Richard Reeves <richardjayree...@gmail.com> wrote:****
>>
>> > FWIW: I bypassed the conundrum of what wood/glue/varnish combo to use***
>> *
>>
>> > by making my racks from 1/4" HDPE pegboard and stainless hardware.****
>>
>> > Conveniently pre-drilled for both drainage as well as attaching the****

>>
>> > slats made from the trimmings, they work well enough and clean up****
>>
>> > easily.****
>>
>> > ****
>>
>> > http://www.flickr.com/photos/rkreeves/6062001439/****
>>
>> > ****
>>
>> > Quick to make, not exactly traditional, nor are they a pleasure to****
>>
>> > behold, but functional.****
>>
>> > HTH, Richard****
>>
>> > ****
>>
>> > On Aug 20, 3:16 am, Anthony Wood <anth...@nettlemedia.co.uk> wrote:****
>>
>> > ****
>>
>> > ****
>>
>> > ****
>>
>> > > Hello,****
>>
>> > ****
>>

>> > > I've joined the group as I'm helping my son with a follow up to last**
>> **
>>
>> > > years modest success with cider making and have read through many of**
>> **
>>
>> > > the informative posts on racks but still have a couple of specific****
>>
>> > > questions.****
>>
>> > ****
>>
>> > > He's built an a press by means of a tray and a frame with a plan to***
>> *

>>
>> > > use a car jack to apply pressure to "cheeses". But we're stuck on how

>> ****
>>
>> > > to make the racks which will need to be about 40cm sq to fit the****

>>
>> > > tray. I thought of plywood with some drainage holes drilled in - but

>> ****
>>
>> > > have been warned that the plywood might react with the juice. But if**
>> **
>>
>> > > we go to the expense of hardwood then we will want to treat and clean*
>> ***
>>
>> > > the hardwood so it can be reused next year.****
>>
>> > ****
>>
>> > > Any suggestions will be welcome but here are the specific questions:**
>> **
>>
>> > ****
>>
>> > > Can the rack be made of Sapele (which seems to be the cheapest****
>>
>> > > hardwood)?****
>>
>> > > Will a thickness of 20mmx12mm be sufficient for the slats? (We're****
>>
>> > > planning to space them 5mm apart)****
>>
>> > > Is there a glue we can safely use to construct the rack with?****
>>
>> > > If not glue then what type of screw is recommended?****
>>
>> > > Can the wood be treated to protect it...if so what with?****
>>
>> > > Will cleaning the racks just with water before storing be sufficient?*
>> ***
>>
>> > ****

>>
>> > > I know from a money perspective we might have bought a press with what

>> ****

>>
>> > > we're spending on materials but that was never the point anyway!****
>>
>> > ****
>>
>> > > Thank you in advance.****
>>
>> > ****
>>
>> > > Anthony- Hide quoted text -****
>>
>> > ****
>>
>> > - Show quoted text -****
>>
>> ****
>>
>> -- ****
>>

>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups

>> "Cider Workshop" group.****
>>
>> To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.****

>>
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

>> cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.****

>>
>> For more options, visit this group at

>> http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en.****

>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Cider Workshop" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at

>> http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en.****
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Ray B****

>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Cider Workshop" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at

>> http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en.****

[Max Nowell]

What is the advantage of using racks anyway? A well-built cheese,
preferably tapering slightly towards the top, with the hairs tightly
tucked in, always seems to work for me, and is quicker to build and
needs no cleaning of equipment.

[Andrew Lea]

The received wisdom (and the same reason that a rack and cloth press is
regarded as superior to a basket press), is that the racks allow the
juice a pathway out from each individual layer of wrapped pulp. Without
that, yields are less because the juice cannot move horizontally away
from the pulp so easily, and effectively the whole cheese is pressed as
just one layer. Data I have seen from 70 years ago shows that you get a
typical yield increase of 5% if you go from a layer thickness of 12.5 cm
down to 5 cm. Conversely, if your 'layer' is the whole height of the
press, yields will presumably drop significantly. I think it is no
accident that the large and highly efficient Bucher-Guyer enclosed
piston presses, which do not have racks, have instead a multitude of
closely spaced porous but semi-rigid juice ducts running throughout the
pulp. If they were not needed they would not be there!

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk

[Nick Bradstock]

I would just add that it seems that the high efficiency of the BG HP series
presses is aided by the rotation of the whole cylinder and piston assembly
containing the apple tissue as the piston works in and out over a 1hour plus
cycle.
The rotation ensures that the pomace cake is continually broken up as it
loses juice and new surfaces are exposed to the ducts and new pathways
formed.
No one to my knowledge has improved (in terms of yield gained and processing
efficiency) on this system since the presses were introduced in the mid/late
60s - any advance has been through BG designing full automation and
sensitive control systems - such that 1 man and his dog can operate at least
6 of these monsters all at the same time and each handling between 5 and 10
tonnes of apple an hour - depending on the fruit quality and the programme
chosen. Mind you, they don't come cheap....
Who says the Swiss can only design and build cuckoo-clocks?
Best
Nick

Andrew

--

[Max Nowell]

What does the dog do?

[JezH]

Ever seen 'Wallace and Gromit'?

Jez:-)

Ps - I believe that Ray is training his dog to wash and mill the apples whilst he presses...

[Tim]

Has it been passed by the EHO and Elf and Safety???

Tim in Dorset

[Raymond Blockley]

Aaahh. But the dog doesn't come into contact with the apples - she stays inside her big "hamster wheel" providing motive power while chasing that elusive pork scratching dangling from a piece of string...

 

TBH: When the EHO turned up, our dog was running around but the EHO commented that she was well trained and never came near the cider-shed - something we've trained her to keep out of since she was a pup. However, we can't train her not to keep nicking chunks of spent pomace out of the tub and eating it...

 

Ray. 

Ray B

[Carl LeClair]

At first I thought, why are people not just buying these items?
Well, with a little research I see why!

Vigo has these Acacia wood ( 650mm x 650mm ) 25" x 25" for ( 52
Pounds ) $83 each + Vat + Transport

OWESCO has Poly Racks 24" x 24" at $117 US ( 74 Pounds ) each + Tax +
Transport

This really adds up if you are using a half dozen or more at a time?

Regards,

Carl

On Aug 25, 4:16 am, Raymond Blockley <raymond_block...@sky.com> wrote:
> Aaahh. But the dog doesn't come into contact with the apples - she stays
> inside her big "hamster wheel" providing motive power while chasing that
> elusive pork scratching dangling from a piece of string...
>
> TBH: When the EHO turned up, our dog was running around but the EHO
> commented that she was well trained and never came near the cider-shed -
> something we've trained her to keep out of since she was a pup. However, we
> can't train her not to keep nicking chunks of spent pomace out of the tub
> and eating it...
>
> Ray.
>
> On 24 August 2011 22:19, Tim <t...@marshwoodvalecider.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Has it been passed by the EHO and Elf and Safety???
>
> > Tim in Dorset
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> > [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of JezH
> > Sent: 24 August 2011 22:18
> > To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Making racks for a cider press
>
> > Ever seen 'Wallace and Gromit'?
>
> > Jez:-)
>
> > Ps - I believe that Ray is training his dog to wash and mill the apples
> > whilst he presses...
>

[Wes Cherry]

Try giving Goodnature a call. I seem to remember reading someone they got replacement racks from them for less than OESCO/Vigo.

-Wes

-'//es Cherry
w...@dragonsheadcider.com
Vashon WA, USA

[Andrew Lea]

On 25/08/2011 17:06, Carl LeClair wrote:
> At first I thought, why are people not just buying these items?
> Well, with a little research I see why!

Cost is certainly one factor. But also, if you have made or in part
constructed the body of the press yourself, it seems to be in some way
'cheating' and certainly less rewarding to go out and buy commercially
made racks!

Andrew

[Carl LeClair]

Wes writes:

> Try giving Goodnature a call. I seem to remember reading someone they got replacement racks from them for less than OESCO/Vigo.

You are correct. I have spoken to Pete Whitehead @ Goodnature many
times!
They are great folks and the rack and cloth pricing is very
competitive.
The best part is they are but an hour away from me!
Sadly, I can not put my fingers on the pricing they extended me before
at the moment?
Thanks for that Wes!


Regards,

Carl

[Carl LeClair]

Andrew Writes:

> Cost is certainly one factor. But also, if you have made or in part
> constructed the body of the press yourself, it seems to be in some way
> 'cheating' and certainly less rewarding to go out and buy commercially
> made racks!

Point well received...
It is just in my business nature to look at the purchase decision
based upon
the difference between the cost of materials and the retail sell price
and that
becomes my real cost / purchase price decision.

Regards,

Carl

[Geoff D.]

What would the consensus be regarding 3/16" HDPE without slats (just a
flat board?) I like the thought of the 1/4" with the saw cuts but I
think (no experience) that the small channels would not do
anything.?.?

Thoughts?

[Andrew Lea]

As Ray mentioned before, some people do use flat boards (plywood or
anything else). But remember the *principle* involved here - you are
trying to provide lateral conduits for horizontal juice flow out of the
centre of the pack towards the sides. On its own a flat board doesn't do
that except for any irregularities at the cloth/board interface. I can't
help thinking that deliberate channels will give you better yields.
Don't have any data, though ;-)

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk

[Geoff D.]

Makes sense. Thanks! This site is a godsend.

[Max Nowell]

OK, I see the logic, but I remain to be convinced. My feeling is that
the individual layers or hairs, which I usually fill to about 2-3
inches deep at most, are driest at the centre after pressing, and
that's pretty damn dry. There is a soggy outer rim, I must admit, but
I'd be amazed if I could get another 5% of juice out! I feel a little
experiment coming on.....I do all my pressing at my mum's, and I'm
sure she has a pile of racks somewhere that we never use.

[Richard Reeves]

I should have mentioned in my original post, as it appears to have
become pertinent in this thread, that the racks I built from 1/4"
HDPE http://www.flickr.com/photos/rkreeves/6062001439/ cost me
less than $12. each in 2010 dollars: about $ 8.40 for the HDPE, the
balance for the stainless hardware. they are 17" x 17" (to fit the
shop press upon which they lean), from pegboard sheet 24" x 48".

Richard

[greg l.]

On Aug 24, 5:45 am, Max Nowell <maxnowell...@gmail.com> wrote:
> What is the advantage of using racks anyway? A well-built cheese,
> preferably tapering slightly towards the top, with the hairs tightly
> tucked in, always seems to work for me, and is quicker to build and
> needs no cleaning of equipment.

I have been thinking about this. In the past I have helped press
several tonnes of chardonnay grapes with a large hydraulic basket
press. It was not very rewarding work, the pulp left over was still
very wet and it seemed that a lot of juice was wasted. Rack and cloth
presses seem to work a lot better, but why?

I think it is because the apple pulp is pressed between 2 solid
boards, so the juice has to move sideways out of the cheese.
Initially, most of the pressure will be between the two top racks of
the upper layer. As this layer compresses, volume is reduced so the
juice is forced out. As the layer approaches maximum compression, most
of the pressure is applied to the next layer down, and so on. As each
layer compresses the juice is forced along the surface of the racks.
In a press without racks, the pressure is applied to the whole mass
simultaneously and the only surfaces where juice is actively being
forced out is at the top and the bottom, as well as near the
perforated sides. The juice in the centre will only move slowly toward
the sides.

I'm only theorising here, but if I'm right solid racks will work
better than perforated racks because they will maintain the pressure
better between the layers. However in a well wrapped cheese the cloth
will hold the pressure between the layers even if the rack is
perforated.

Greg

[Alan Stone]

This is what we used and averaged 63% with a 20 tonne bottle jack --- On Thu, 25/8/11, Geoff D. <71tarl...@gmail.com> wrote:

-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group. To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

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