New Apple varieties
Michael Cobb
ones? The answer is to fill a percieved gap in the list. Such a gap was
seen for cider apples when production moved to bush orchards at the end of
the twentieth century. Long Ashton started the search for early cider
cultivars to extend the season forward to September before the October
peak. The results of that work are descibed in a new booklet, 21st
century cider apples by Liz Copas, which was available at Bath and West.
Many good cider apples have come from chance but here was hard graft over
many years to select twenty nine named varieties from an original 1500
seedlings! The booklet is a useful resource to anyone wanting to plant
some early apples giving details of taste, maturity date, flowering date,
Juice flavour, SG, acidity, colour and tannin. The acid and tanin is
further broken down for those who want it to give Phenolic acids, real
tannins, total tannins and a ratio of real/phenolic - to much for most I
am sure but great for those wanting to find what would make a good
balance.
Would such a search take as long today or could we search the apple genome
to find the characteristics we want and select the seedlings down to a
manageable level more quickly? I have recently seen a video from New
Zealand research for breeding a red fleshed apple for the healthy benefits
of the anthocyanins. The found the gene for anthocyanin production and
bred for it using apples from the Kazakstan forests. Perhaps this is also
a gap in the market but they may be behind the curve as trademarked
redfleshed apples are already being distributed from a Swiss breeder. Red
seems to be a trend in apples and juice as Kieth Goverd had an interesting
red apple juice at Bath and West which he has renamed as Campbell's Claret
- I asked him if I could get hold of a tree and he would not or could not
give an answer suggesting I might have to wait for a short while so those
he was working with could get a head start. Once it is out, he said, it
is out implying it will soon get grafted by others - how long will the
trademarked Swiss apples survive before this starts happening as well?
Red cider anyone? Andrew has previously suggested that the red colour
some have found in juice will not survive fermentation but medium cider
back sweetened with red juice would seem to be a possibility, certainly
the Swiss breeder thinks so as on on of his you tube videos he shows
mixing red juice with Kentish cider.
Michael Cobb
Ray Blockley
Farm" stand selling their range of bottled ciders. The very red "Red Devil"
cider was interesting and the chap behind the counter assured us it was a
Single Variety Cider and the colour was entirely due to the red skin and
flesh of the "Red Devil" apple.
However, the Old Grove website (while still claiming it is an SV cider)
states:
"The darkest Red Devil apples are carefully combined with premium
Herefordshire blackcurrant juice to give a burst of fruity flavour. With a
natural crimson hue true to the Red Devil's skin, this lightly sparkling
cider is made from 100% Herefordshire fruit juices."
I'm not convinced that adding blackcurrant juice keeps this an SV cider nor
that said juice would *not* affect the colour!
Ray.
Michael Cobb
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Claude Jolicoeur
> With the vast number of apple varieties available why would we need new
> ones? The answer is to fill a percieved gap in the list.
because they perform well in UK. They might not be as good somewhere
else... like here in Quebec. And I don't have generations of
cidermakers who have tested the varieties to find the best ones for
the climate!
> Long Ashton started the search for early cider
> cultivars to extend the season forward to September before the October
> peak. The results of that work are descibed in a new booklet, 21st
> century cider apples by Liz Copas, which was available at Bath and West.
(PDF) of it available?
> redfleshed apples are already being distributed from a Swiss breeder. Red
> seems to be a trend in apples and juice as Kieth Goverd had an interesting
> red apple juice at Bath and West which he has renamed as Campbell's Claret
very acidic and low in sugar, which makes them poor candidates as
cider apples. However, Terry Maloney used to make a very nice pink
cider from the Redfield redflesh apple. Unfortunately, I don't have
the Redfield here and I don't know if its juice is as acidic and low
in sugar as the other redflesh apples. There is also a commercial
cider maker in Quebec, Michel Jodoin, who does a pink cider from the
Geneva redflesh apple. He will not giveaway his recipee however...
Claude
Michael Cobb
>> Long Ashton started the search for early cider
>> cultivars to extend the season forward to September before the October
>> peak. �The results of that work are descibed in a new booklet, 21st
>> century cider apples by Liz Copas, which was available at Bath and West.
>
> Was this booklet for sale or given? Is there an electronic version
> (PDF) of it available?
>
contacting her - Liz Copas com gives her mail address. (google Liz Copas)
Michael Cobb
Andrew Lea
Much of what is in the booklet is also in this presentation which Liz
gave a couple of years back.
http://cideruk.com/files/publications/NACMNextGenerationOrchards.pdf
These apples are intended to fill the factory gap in the UK in early
season (hence the choice of parentage). There is little indication yet
of their cidermaking potential per se, and none at all on their value to
the craft maker (which I suspect will be slight, but only time will
tell). Liz will confirm this - I asked her that question at her Bath and
West presentation this year! But they will undoubtedly be valuable to
large UK cidermakers, which is their intended destination.
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk
Dick Dunn
...
> My experience up to now with redflesh apples is that they are usually
> very acidic and low in sugar, which makes them poor candidates as
> cider apples. However, Terry Maloney used to make a very nice pink
> cider from the Redfield redflesh apple. Unfortunately, I don't have
> the Redfield here and I don't know if its juice is as acidic and low
> in sugar as the other redflesh apples.
Claude - I've got Redfield here. Trees aren't big enough to give much of
a crop (and this is an off year). But from what I got last year, I can
tell you that Redfield is quite acidic and tannic. I don't know how
Terry made a SV of it! Also, I don't know about sugar but will try to
remember to take a reading this year.
>...There is also a commercial
> cider maker in Quebec, Michel Jodoin, who does a pink cider from the
> Geneva redflesh apple. He will not giveaway his recipee however...
Well, fwiw the Redfield did come from the Geneva collection.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
greg l.
flowered apples are descended from a single plant collected in central
asia in the late 19c and introduced in the USA, Malus Niedzwetzkyana.
Greg
Claude Jolicoeur
> Claude - I've got Redfield here. Trees aren't big enough to give much of
> a crop (and this is an off year). But from what I got last year, I can
> tell you that Redfield is quite acidic and tannic. I don't know how
> Terry made a SV of it! Also, I don't know about sugar but will try to
> remember to take a reading this year.
However, if I remember well, Terry said that his Redfield cider was
not SV, but a blend with something like 70% Redfield juice, and I
would assume he used high sugar-low acid juice for the remaining
30%...
> Well, fwiw the Redfield did come from the Geneva collection.
Redfield : Wolf River X M.niedzwetzkyana, Introduced 1938, Geneva, NY.
Geneva : 1928, Bred in Ottawa, Canada, from M.niedzwetzkyana open
pollinated, was originally bred for the "Rosybloom" series of
decorative crabapples, but as the fruit was larger than the others, it
has also been propagated for the fruit.
And Greg wrote :
> flowered apples are descended from a single plant collected in central
> asia in the late 19c and introduced in the USA, Malus Niedzwetzkyana.
expeditions to the apple forests of Kazakhstan (I don't remember which
publication however) and it seems the redflesh would be a fairly
common character among the wild apples.
Claude
greg l.
Redfield : Wolf River X M.niedzwetzkyana, Introduced 1938, Geneva, NY.
> Geneva : 1928, Bred in Ottawa, Canada, from M.niedzwetzkyana open
> pollinated, was originally bred for the "Rosybloom" series of
> decorative crabapples, but as the fruit was larger than the others, it
> has also been propagated for the fruit.
M."Niedzwetzkyana" or M. pumila "Niedzwetzkyana"
Interesting about red flesh being common in Kazakhstan. Obviously
there is a lot of unexplored genetic potential there.
Greg
Dick Dunn
> Dick Dunn wrote:
> > Claude - I've got Redfield here. �Trees aren't big enough to give much of
> > a crop (and this is an off year). �But from what I got last year, I can
> > tell you that Redfield is quite acidic and tannic. �I don't know how
> > Terry made a SV of it! �Also, I don't know about sugar but will try to
> > remember to take a reading this year.
>
> Yes, please do, it will be interesting to know.
> However, if I remember well, Terry said that his Redfield cider was
> not SV, but a blend with something like 70% Redfield juice, and I
> would assume he used high sugar-low acid juice for the remaining
> 30%...
Even 70% Redfield seems like a challenge to me. But then also I heard
that since Terry's death, and I forget whether this was from Field (I
think) or Judith, they had made a SV Redfield.
> > Well, fwiw the Redfield did come from the Geneva collection.
> Yes.
> Redfield : Wolf River X M.niedzwetzkyana,...
Really!! That may be the best purpose to which Wolf River has ever been
put!
> ... was originally bred for the "Rosybloom" series of
> decorative crabapples, but as the fruit was larger than the others, it
> has also been propagated for the fruit.
It's easy to imagine that the Wolf River contributed some genetic material
for size, and fortunately not too much else.
For those on the right side of the pond, or down under: Wolf River is a
huge apple, commonly producing fruit over .5 kg. Unfortunately, in many
climates the fruit is uninteresting at its very best. From the common
boast that you can make a pie from a single Wolf River apple, someone [I
think it was Charles McGonegal] said, "...and then you taste the pie and
throw it out." I've not tried to grow Wolf River here; others have. I
don't know what quality it achieves locally, or whether it merely addresses
the American predilection for "bigger is better".
...but I digress...
Andrew Lea
> My book on flowering crabs by Fiala says all red fleshed and pink
> flowered apples are descended from a single plant collected in central
> asia in the late 19c and introduced in the USA, Malus Niedzwetzkyana.
I can't buy that. 'Bloody Turk' was grown in the UK before then. Hogg
and Bull (1886) have it as "An early, soft, deep red apple, the colour
extending more or less through the flesh. It is a bad keeper and a poor
cider fruit. It, too, should be sold to the costermonger". And many
Foxwhelp varieties have strongly tinged red flesh too.
I think red flesh is a natural mutation that crops up in M. pumila /
domestica from time to time as it does e.g. in grapes and oranges, even
carrots. After all the anthocyanin synthesis pathway is already present
and switched on for apple skin, so it doesn't seem too big a deal for it
to be switched on in the flesh occasionally. The other flavonoid
phenolics (aka "tannins") are mostly common to both skin and flesh, and
they all come from a common and complex biosynthetic pathway which has
been known to plant biochemists for many years. The anthocyanin
diversion only happens in the final step or two of this pathway AFAIR.
Sorry but I think a lot of what has been put out recently is just
marketing hype, not good science!
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
greg l.
> and Bull (1886) have it as "An early, soft, deep red apple, the colour
> extending more or less through the flesh. It is a bad keeper and a poor
> cider fruit. It, too, should be sold to the costermonger". And many
> Foxwhelp varieties have strongly tinged red flesh too.
rosybloom crabs from which, as Claude says, the modern red fleshed
cultivars were bred. On further reading he was referring to the deep
pink flower colour rather than the fruit - I wasn't aware there were
other red fleshed cultivars - do they still exist? Do you know if the
deep pink flower colour existed before the rosyblooms?
Greg
Andrew Lea
>> I can't buy that. 'Bloody Turk' was grown in the UK before then. Hogg
>> and Bull (1886) have it as "An early, soft, deep red apple, the colour
>> extending more or less through the flesh. It is a bad keeper and a poor
>> cider fruit. It, too, should be sold to the costermonger". And many
>> Foxwhelp varieties have strongly tinged red flesh too.
>
> Interesting, I was just paraphrasing Fiala who was referring to the
> rosybloom crabs from which, as Claude says, the modern red fleshed
> cultivars were bred. On further reading he was referring to the deep
> pink flower colour rather than the fruit - I wasn't aware there were
> other red fleshed cultivars - do they still exist? Do you know if the
> deep pink flower colour existed before the rosyblooms?
I suggest you check page 178 / 9 of Professor Barrie Juniper's book The
Story of the Apple. It gives a concise and authoritative explanation of
the whole issue, especially the last paragraph which deals with the
widespread existence of edible red-fleshed cultivars which are not
'crabs'. Niedzwetzkyana is a red fleshed Malus pumila which has been
used in breeding rosybloom ornamentals but is not itself a crab. I have
scanned the pages and you can find it here
http://www.cider.org.uk/nied.pdf. Apologies to the copyright holders but
it is only 2 pages for educational use!
Andrew Lea
Michael Cobb
>
> Interesting, I was just paraphrasing Fiala who was referring to the
> rosybloom crabs from which, as Claude says, the modern red fleshed
> cultivars were bred. On further reading he was referring to the deep
> pink flower colour rather than the fruit - I wasn't aware there were
> other red fleshed cultivars - do they still exist? Do you know if the
> deep pink flower colour existed before the rosyblooms?
>
> Greg
>
you look at The New Zealand Biotechnology Learning Hub
http://www.biotechlearn.org.nz/focus_stories/breeding_red_fleshed_apples
you will see that they suggest they have imported seed to New Zealand from
Kazhakstan as part of their breeding.
Michael Cobb
Andrew Lea
>
>>
> I do not know where the red flesh came from for the Swiss apples but, if
> you look at The New Zealand Biotechnology Learning Hub
>
> http://www.biotechlearn.org.nz/focus_stories/breeding_red_fleshed_apples
>
> you will see that they suggest they have imported seed to New Zealand from
> Kazhakstan as part of their breeding.
Thanks for that link Michael. If you drill down further to look at the
actual science they've done, this paper
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1365-313X.2006.02964.x/full
explains how the relevant gene effectively switches on the anthocyanin
biosynthesis pathway. They also make the interesting observation that
"It is possible that white-fleshed apples have lost the ability to
produce pigmentation throughout the fruit due to a mutation in one or
more biosynthetic gene(s), or in the regulatory genes as has been
observed for white grapes". In other words, all apples were once red!
The science is great. What I take issue with is the implication in a
lot of the marketing stuff that there have never been any red-fleshed
apples before. There have, and they have arisen by chance mutations as
Barrie Juniper says. What these guys are doing is to apply their new
knowledge of apple genetics to be sure that the relevant gene is
expressed in their new selections.
Claude Jolicoeur
> > Redfield : Wolf River X M.niedzwetzkyana,...
> Really!! That may be the best purpose to which Wolf River has ever been
> put!
Not great as you say, but still the fruit was better than most
commercially grown apples I can buy ar the store!
> > ... was originally bred for the "Rosybloom" series of
> > decorative crabapples, but as the fruit was larger than the others, it
> > has also been propagated for the fruit.
> It's easy to imagine that the Wolf River contributed some genetic material
> for size, and fortunately not too much else.
referring to the "Geneva" not the "Redfield"!
And Andrew wrote:
> Niedzwetzkyana is a red fleshed Malus pumila which has been
> used in breeding rosybloom ornamentals but is not itself a crab. I have
> scanned the pages and you can find it here
> http://www.cider.org.uk/nied.pdf.
memory is wrong, either it is something else I had read! Another
authoritative reading on this topic is from Dzangaliev, "Wild apple
tree of Kazakhstan", in Horticultural Reviews 29, 2003. If you have a
university library near you... I know I made a copy of this, but I am
at the orchard today, and I don't bring all my books when I come and
play with the trees... So hopefully my recollections come from this
text.
And Greg wrote:
> Interesting, I was just paraphrasing Fiala who was referring to the
> rosybloom crabs from which, as Claude says, the modern red fleshed
> cultivars were bred.
was referring to such a program from the Agriculture Canada
experimental farm in Ottawa, in the beginning of the 20th century.
They released quite a number of flowering crabapples, and I guess that
effectively most modern pink flowering ornementals come from one or
another of these breeding programs. As of the pink fleshed apples, as
Andrew said, there are some that would not have these Rosybloom
programs as ancestry. For example, the Pink Princess was bred by Fred
Janson recently from the Pink Pearl, itself an offspring of Surprise,
an old redfleshed apple dating at least from 1830.
Claude