Recent paper on the origin and evolution of the apple

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Claude Jolicoeur

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May 30, 2019, 9:23:16 AM5/30/19
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This paper was recently published on the origin and evolution of the apple.
Claude

Andrew Lea

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May 30, 2019, 9:54:18 AM5/30/19
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Thanks for that, Claude. Excellent thought-provoking stuff!

Interestingly Juniper and Mabberley’s 2006 book on the origins of the apple, long out of print, seems to have been updated and is to be republished this summer under a new name https://www.nhbs.com/the-extraordinary-story-of-the-apple-book

I’m looking forward to that. 

Andrew

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Bob Imlach

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May 30, 2019, 3:57:26 PM5/30/19
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Oh that's good, I read Roger Deakin's Wildwood book and he mentions Barrie Juniper, so I will look forward to the publication. I'm looking forward to seeing Claude's film too. In Roger's book he also mentions that the apple forests were close to walnut forests and that was where walnuts first originated. Do you know if that is true and if so is just co-incidence that apples and walnuts developed in the same area?

Bob Imlach


On Thursday, May 30, 2019 at 2:54:18 PM UTC+1, Andrew Lea wrote:
Thanks for that, Claude. Excellent thought-provoking stuff!

Interestingly Juniper and Mabberley’s 2006 book on the origins of the apple, long out of print, seems to have been updated and is to be republished this summer under a new name https://www.nhbs.com/the-extraordinary-story-of-the-apple-book

I’m looking forward to that. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
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On 30 May 2019, at 14:23, Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com> wrote:

This paper was recently published on the origin and evolution of the apple.
Claude

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Andrew Lea

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May 30, 2019, 4:03:32 PM5/30/19
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Oddly enough i have a neighbour who did his PhD in the walnut forests. They are a bit south of the Kazakh apple forests, mostly in the river valleys of Kyrgyzstan.  However, the two are close and the distributions do overlap.  So generally yes they developed in the same area. As did many of our fruit crops. 

Andrew 

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Wes Cherry

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May 30, 2019, 4:06:17 PM5/30/19
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I have read of similar tale of the avocado - incoming humans killed off the megafauna necessary to propagate avocados in South America.   Luckily humans also learned to propagate avocados in time to save them from extinction.

One wonders how many other large fruits were lost in the early Holocene.   

Btw, speaking of megafauna, wooly mammoths existed at the same time as the pyramids...

-'//es Cherry
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jitd...@aol.com

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May 30, 2019, 4:35:47 PM5/30/19
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Hmm …. really does sound like the garden of Eden doesn't it?  Would that be the Western edge of the Tien Shan (Mountains of Heaven) range?  I like the idea that it is all down to faecal deposits made by bears with differing tastes in fruit rather than divine intervention. 
I once stayed in a gite in the Dordogne that was surrounded by walnut orchards - in fact as we sat outside having breakfast each morning we were bombarded by walnuts falling from neighbouring trees overhanging the yard.  I don't remember seeing any apple trees in the area but they just discovered some more cave drawings nearby though nobody would tell you exactly where.  They have made a wonderful mock-up of the Lescaux caves though, it really feels like the real thing.  Awe inspiring stuff. 
JD
 
 

Andrew Lea

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May 30, 2019, 4:45:03 PM5/30/19
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The wild apples (Malus sieversii) are actually on both sides of the Tien Shan, both in Kazakhstan and China (Xinjiang). The Chinese population is supposed to be “purer” with less admixture by other Malus species. The map in this paper https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-00336-7  Figure 2 shows you what seems to be the state of current knowledge.  However, it is the Kazakh apple forests which have received most attention since the 18th century, since they are not far from Almaty, and they are indeed on the Western slopes of the Tien Shan.

Andrew

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jitd...@aol.com

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May 30, 2019, 4:55:53 PM5/30/19
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Well the staggering diversity of fruit emanating from this area would fit a "Garden of Eden" myth, and the name of the mountain range also suggests a mythological heritage, but here we are back to Earth where it is sometimes forgotten in the West that China is the largest producer of apples globally.  I understand that China purchased cider making equipment from Bulmers some years back.  Has anyone in here tasted Chinese cider? 
JD
 
 

Wayne Bush

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May 30, 2019, 9:10:27 PM5/30/19
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I see a reference in Bob Imlach's post to a forthcoming film by Claude?  I've looked for more info on a film by Claude in this forum and on google, but I haven't found another reference to it.  Could someone fill me in? Sorry if I've missed the obvious.... Thanks, Wayne

Claude Jolicoeur

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May 30, 2019, 11:08:33 PM5/30/19
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Le jeudi 30 mai 2019 21:10:27 UTC-4, Wayne Bush a écrit :
I see a reference in Bob Imlach's post to a forthcoming film by Claude?  I've looked for more info on a film by Claude in this forum and on google, but I haven't found another reference to it.  Could someone fill me in? Sorry if I've missed the obvious.... Thanks, Wayne

Yes, I was sort of afraid someone would raise this when I saw Bob's post...
And I don't know where Bob got his information as we didn't talk about this on the forum.
It is not my film, although I and some others will appear in it.
An announcement about the film should appear in due time, probably by the end of summer. I can't tell more at this time.
Claude

Bob Imlach

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May 31, 2019, 3:34:52 AM5/31/19
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Hello Claude

Sorry if I shouldn't have mentioned it. My apologies. There was a display opposite our stand in the Cider & Orchards Tent at The Bath & West with pictures and a date - I think - for either the release.or a talk, I will check on Saturday when I go back. also I should have alluded to the fact it was a team rather than just Claude.
Bob 

Richard Torrens (lists)

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May 31, 2019, 6:50:47 AM5/31/19
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In article <1038668581.61008...@mail.yahoo.com>,
jitdavies via Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> I like the idea that it is all down to faecal deposits made by bears
> with differing tastes in fruit rather than divine intervention.

Bears and similar large fructivores would have had nothing to do with
walnuts evolution. Such seeds need to be collected by animals like
squirrels which bury them for future use, then forget about them!

Although the outer soft part of the walnut is edible (pickled walnuts) it
is too bitter for animals other than humans - and then it needs processing! So
although it could have developed an outer edible flesh as did the apple, it
evolved a different way.

Just to keep the thread alcoholic - walnut wine!
https://curiousprovence.com/vin-de-noix-homemade-walnut-wine-recipe/

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Richard Torrens, Burwell, Cambs, UK.

Claude Jolicoeur

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May 31, 2019, 8:26:25 AM5/31/19
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Well, if there is some public information out, then you are welcome to share it! No need to apologise.
Not that it is secret, as a teaser for the film has been shown in some occasions. Just that it is not my role to make any public disclosure about it.
I would be interested to know what is on that display at Bath & West by the way.
Claude

John Were

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Jun 1, 2019, 9:48:39 AM6/1/19
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Hi Claude,

I took some photos of the exhibition mentioning the film at the Bath and West for you. Attached here and to the subsequent email as files too large to send all at once.

Also awarded a silver in the Newcomers class :-). Well done to all the competition winners! Some amazing ciders there.

John

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John Were

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Jun 1, 2019, 9:48:55 AM6/1/19
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Claude Jolicoeur

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Jun 1, 2019, 10:44:18 AM6/1/19
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Le samedi 1 juin 2019 09:48:39 UTC-4, John Were a écrit :
Hi Claude,

I took some photos of the exhibition mentioning the film at the Bath and West for you. Attached here and to the subsequent email as files too large to send all at once.

Thanks!
Great to see this is coming.
Claude

Andrew Lea

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Jun 1, 2019, 11:38:36 AM6/1/19
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So the secret is out now!

As far as I know, it will be Peter Mitchell and myself at the launch event at the Malvern Show at the end of September, plus the film maker Matthew.  We are all UK based. It’s a bit too far for our Canadian and American colleagues to come just for the weekend ;-)

Andrew

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AW

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Jun 2, 2019, 11:27:08 AM6/2/19
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This is an interesting paper....but I come away a bit confused on certain points of the narrative.

Firstly the author uses some confusing phrasing throughout which tends to muddy the distinction between evolutionary events occurring before and after the advent of "human cultivation"...see below.


"In this article, I compile recent genetic, paleontological, and archeological data in order to present a model to explain the rapid evolution of rosaceous fruits under human cultivation. This model for evolution under cultivation focuses on the greater time depth of evolution and a robust understanding of gene-flow/seed-dispersal processes before and during human cultivation."

It takes some effort to wrap one's mind around the process and consequences of cyclic isolation/contact between various populations of wild and cultured fruit, as well as the various selective pressures experienced by these populations. The author seems to split these diversification events into two classes - those occurring before and during the period of human intervention....and also differentiates in some detail the effect of selection by megafauna versus passive/accidental selection via human activity and intentional breeding.

The major thing I am struggling to understand is the effect on "fitness" of the recent hybridization events (occurring mainly in Western Asia and Europe it seems) on the domestic apple. I always understood the "wild" population of apples in the Tien Shan to contain roughly similar or superior genetic potential (for say, eating or cider) compared with our collection of domestic varietals and/or the crabs that have gone wild in Europe and N America. This leaves me wondering if the size and quality of the domestic apple can really be attributed to late hybridization events.....or if these hybridizations engendered some other kind of fitness not related to taste/quality.....The answers are probably in the references, particularly the ones which link genotype to phenotype....I guess I'll keep reading.

jitd...@aol.com

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Jun 2, 2019, 3:15:38 PM6/2/19
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This is important science especially from a "popular" point of view because it helps all of us to be more aware of the world we live in and our place in nature.  It's on a par with discovering that dinosaurs are alive and well and living in trees - you never look at a pheasant in the same way again! 
Back to the fruit though, if the theory is correct, then a staggering amount of diverse fruit comes from this region.  Someone in here can put me straight, but am I right in thinking that blackberries, black-currents, apples, plums, peaches, pears, almonds are all rosaceae?  What about the walnuts - where do they fit in?  They seem to originate in the same sort of area. 
JD
 
 
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Andrew Lea

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Jun 2, 2019, 3:28:34 PM6/2/19
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No, walnuts and black currants are not in the Rosaceae. 

The reason for the huge diversity of rosaceous fruit crops in the Tien Shan seems to be that (rather paradoxically) it escaped glaciation so they continued to evolve there whereas they were largely wiped out in the rest of Europe and Asia. AFAIR that’s what Barrie Juniper’s book says anyway. Of course there are other Malus species in Europe and Asia (and America) but they do not have the diversity of M. sieversii which has had longer to develop. Then, M. sieversii with the introgression of Malus sylvestris along the westward trade routes has become Malus domestica. Although one study indicates that European  cider apples appear to be closer to pure sieversii than are dessert apples.

I hope that’s an accurate summary of what I have read. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
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Richard Torrens (lists)

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Jun 3, 2019, 3:53:54 AM6/3/19
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In article <1342228401.70009...@mail.yahoo.com>,
jitdavies via Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
> This is important science especially from a "popular" point of view
> because it helps all of us to be more aware of the world we live in and
> our place in nature. It's on a par with discovering that dinosaurs are
> alive and well and living in trees - you never look at a pheasant in the
> same way again! Back to the fruit though, if the theory is correct,
> then a staggering amount of diverse fruit comes from this region.
> Someone in here can put me straight, but am I right in thinking that
> blackberries, black-currents, apples, plums, peaches, pears, almonds are
> all rosaceae?

Yes. Except, as Andrew says, currants.

> What about the walnuts - where do they fit in? They seem
> to originate in the same sort of area.

Walnuts are wind-pollinated. Like many other trees (the catkin-bearing
trees and pines). Wind polination evolved very early, before there were
insects to pollinate.

jitd...@aol.com

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Jun 3, 2019, 2:37:48 PM6/3/19
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Thanks for that Andrew.  So the Ribes are not part of the rosaceae. 
Obviously I am not a botanist but I often
 
 

jitd...@aol.com

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Jun 3, 2019, 2:56:27 PM6/3/19
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Thanks for that Andrew.  So the Ribes are not part of the rosaceae. 
Obviously I am not a botanist but I often wonder (with some anxiety) at how few plant groups we depend on:  the grasses, alliums, cruciferae, umbelliferae, curcurbits, astereaceae, beta …… I suppose there are others ….. but one really good disease or pestilence could really cause chaos.  Preserving genetic diversity is vital.  For instance my hedges contain about 30% ash, and I am told I can expect to loose 90% of them by 2020.  We have already lost the elms (though they regenerate periodically from the old stools and die again when they reach about 6 or 7 metres.). 
Perhaps the cousins who are experimenting crab crosses are on to something. 
JD
 
 
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Wayne Bush

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Jun 3, 2019, 4:02:46 PM6/3/19
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I'm glad I asked about the film!  Whenever the time is right to share more information, it would be great to know how/when/where others can see it after the opening event at Malvern.  Best regards, Wayne


On Saturday, June 1, 2019 at 5:38:36 PM UTC+2, Andrew Lea wrote:
So the secret is out now!

As far as I know, it will be Peter Mitchell and myself at the launch event at the Malvern Show at the end of September, plus the film maker Matthew.  We are all UK based. It’s a bit too far for our Canadian and American colleagues to come just for the weekend ;-)

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 1 Jun 2019, at 15:44, Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com> wrote:

Le samedi 1 juin 2019 09:48:39 UTC-4, John Were a écrit :
Hi Claude,

I took some photos of the exhibition mentioning the film at the Bath and West for you. Attached here and to the subsequent email as files too large to send all at once.

Thanks!
Great to see this is coming.
Claude

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Alex

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Jun 5, 2019, 11:37:16 AM6/5/19
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Hi Wayne,
I'm one of the producers of the documentary. Andrew and Claude are kindly keeping it on the q.t. as there's still a lot of post-production work being done. As such we're not ready to start putting the word out yet beyond what was seen at the fair. But in answer to your question it'll be on Amazon Prime later this year. I'll let you know more nearer the time.

Best regards

Alex

Mike KG

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Feb 18, 2020, 4:52:30 AM2/18/20
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Part 1 and Part 2 of the film has been released. It's being released as a three part, two hour documentary.
https://vimeo.com/ondemand/ciderinkazakhstan
I watched Part 2 earlier today but now I can no longer see it so maybe there is a minor hiccup.

Great film. Particularly Part 1.
Congratulations to Alex and Aizhan Thomas for making this happen.

Mike KG

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Feb 18, 2020, 5:21:41 AM2/18/20
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The Tien Shan mountains actually stretch from China to Uzbekistan and dominate the small, beautiful country of Kyrgyzstan.

You'll see from this paper that Malus sieversii can be found beyond Kazakhstan and China but along the whole range of Tian Shan mountains. 
https://journals.ashs.org/hortsci/view/journals/hortsci/48/12/article-p1440.xml
"The mountains of Central Asia have forest species that include Malus sieversii (Ledeb.) M. Roem., a highly diverse apple crop wild relative. The Russian scientist Vavilov explored the forests of Central Asia in the 1920s and made note of the wide range of M. sieversii phenotypes, suggesting that this region, including Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and western China, is a center of origin for the domesticated apple (Luby et al., 2001; Wan et al., 2011; Yan et al., 2008)."
and 
"Malus sieversii is a broadly defined species native to Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and China."
More specifically this review article ( https://doi.org/10.3389/fpls.2019.00617 ) describes its habitat as
"The natural range of M. sieversii covers the western extent of the Tian Shan Mountains and is mostly restricted to southeastern Kazakhstan, with isolated populations in valleys in northern Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan (Harris et al., 2002; Velasco et al., 2010; Cornille et al., 2014; Figure 2)."

Thankfully (but sadly) it's on the Red List of Trees of Central Asia as its global importance is recognised, not only for the origin of the apple, but for its disease resistance qualities.

PS. Fascinating to watch and listen to your observations in the new film, Andrew and Peter. :)


On Friday, 31 May 2019 02:45:03 UTC+6, Andrew Lea wrote:
The wild apples (Malus sieversii) are actually on both sides of the Tien Shan, both in Kazakhstan and China (Xinjiang). The Chinese population is supposed to be “purer” with less admixture by other Malus species. The map in this paper https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-00336-7  Figure 2 shows you what seems to be the state of current knowledge.  However, it is the Kazakh apple forests which have received most attention since the 18th century, since they are not far from Almaty, and they are indeed on the Western slopes of the Tien Shan.

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 30 May 2019, at 21:35, jitdavies via Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

Hmm …. really does sound like the garden of Eden doesn't it?  Would that be the Western edge of the Tien Shan (Mountains of Heaven) range?  I like the idea that it is all down to faecal deposits made by bears with differing tastes in fruit rather than divine intervention. 
I once stayed in a gite in the Dordogne that was surrounded by walnut orchards - in fact as we sat outside having breakfast each morning we were bombarded by walnuts falling from neighbouring trees overhanging the yard.  I don't remember seeing any apple trees in the area but they just discovered some more cave drawings nearby though nobody would tell you exactly where.  They have made a wonderful mock-up of the Lescaux caves though, it really feels like the real thing.  Awe inspiring stuff. 
JD
 
 
-----Original Message-----
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Sent: Thu, 30 May 2019 21:03
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Recent paper on the origin and evolution of the apple

Oddly enough i have a neighbour who did his PhD in the walnut forests. They are a bit south of the Kazakh apple forests, mostly in the river valleys of Kyrgyzstan.  However, the two are close and the distributions do overlap.  So generally yes they developed in the same area. As did many of our fruit crops. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
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Alex

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Feb 20, 2020, 7:46:26 AM2/20/20
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Thanks for the kind words Mike!

It's been a crazy amount of work for our liittle production team in the evenings and at weekends, but we got there eventually and it was great fun to film and produce. 

Part 2 was down briefly, but is back up now, the final part will be out the week after next!


Trevor FitzJohn

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Feb 20, 2020, 4:01:48 PM2/20/20
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Great to see. Fantastic video. Cheers Trevor 


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jitd...@aol.com

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Feb 20, 2020, 4:19:03 PM2/20/20
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It's not just the beautiful science behind it, it is also the great apple adventure in which we all play some little part even if only in the wings.  Thank you to everyone involved.  


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Alex

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Mar 14, 2020, 4:25:40 AM3/14/20
to Cider Workshop
Thanks also to jitdavies and Trevor for the kind and eloquent words!

I just wanted to post a message for those waiting for epiosode three, it's coming at the end of the month. It's an extra-long epiosde so taking a lot of time in the edit suite!

Best regards

Alex
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