Mapping software / GPS GIS?

[Tom Bugs]

Hi,

I'm wondering if anyone has any ideas on mapping/documenting orchards with modern software & GPS?

I found an old thread about a phone-based app (iOS only) but nothing else.

It sounds as though regular consumer grade GPS hardware might or might not be accurate enough for trees spaced 6-9 meters.?!.
Could a phone be used or should I get a USB GPS dongle for my tablet? (I might be able to borrow a dedicated GPS unit)
Ideally I'd be able to smoothly add photos and comments to each individual entry + utilities like exporting maps etc.

It maybe sounds like GIS (geographic information system) software might be useful - I'm going to have a read about open-source QGIS - but can't find any case studies of mapping orchards or such.

A bit flummoxed at the moment.. Anyone got any ideas? I can do rough maps with graphics programs and then do spreadsheets etc alongside, but it feels clunky as hell!
Cheers, Tom

[John B, Bath]

Have you come across this site:

https://ptes.org/orchard-owner-questionnaire/

Doesn't seem to allow photo uploads, but seems like a good enough 'wheel' that might not need reinventing. You could keep a folder of photos and index them using their numbering system for future reference.

JB 

[Courtney Meier]

Hi Tom,

As part of my work as an ecologist, we collect a great deal of geolocated information about trees within plots we establish, and we often will acquire photos of the plots as long-term references. We use a mobile platform called Fulcrum to do this, and it has both photo and map features, and can be easily customized to collect string, numerical, or categorical types of data about each tree as well. It is paid software eventually, but you can enroll with a free trial:

https://www.fulcrumapp.com/

For the geolocation data, it is possible to collect GPS data via a mobile phone running a Fulcrum app, and the accuracy of these data will depend on a host of factors - you'll probably have to play around in your particular orchard to see if you can meet your needs. Once data are collected into a Fulcrum database, you can use SQL queries, export to spreadsheets, etc. We like Fulcrum because we can provide technicians with controlled data entry interfaces and minimize the variability within a given field - e.g., one could use a list of values to constrain a 'Tree Type' entry field to only those varieties planted in your orchard, and there would never be any misspellings.

Hope that helps!

Courtney

[Tom Bugs]

Thanks both.

John - I have seen PTES before (actually should have applied for grants ah well..) but I don't think the mapping on there goes beyond the individual orchards - this particular one is already on there as half of it stretches back to pre 1900.

Courtney - that looks interesting, though with the potential $22 per month that is probably a no go - hmm, well unless I can just use it for one month & then cancel (or just do what I want during the free trial even)
I like that it has an app alongside.

Looking into the QDIS software last night was a bit mind boggling - pretty complex.

[Courtney Meier]

It occurred to me that Airtable may also meet your needs, and also has a free option: https://airtable.com/pricing

There are iOS / Android interfaces, and you can add images to records as attachments. You may not be able to record location data using the mobile integrated GPS as easily as with Fulcrum (speculating here, I haven’t tested), but at the end of the day location data can be recorded like any other numerical field.

For map making Fulcrum has a map feature since GPS data are integrated into each record. With Airtable I was able to export a csv containing lat/longs that I manually transcribed and then I used a few lines of R code to make a kml that can be opened in Google Earth. There may be other ways to do it. Happy to share the code if you’re interested!

Cheers,
Courtney

Courtney Meier, Ecologist, Cider Hobbyist, Boulder, CO

[knivetoncider]

Tom
I have a few years experience of asset management, toposurveying & GIS including a tree database for Public Safety Risk Assessments using a variety of software (usually ArcGIS)

Not surprised you found QGIS mind boggling - great if you have huge datasets you need to manipulate or interrogate - a big sledgehammer to crack a small nut in most cases.

GPS tends not to work around trees - even the high-end commercial  GPS on a pole type of survey kit. They rely on info from the satellites and if they can't see the satellites due to tree cover then the accuracy diminishes. Usually for a topo survey you would just survey the extent of tree cover. If any tree locations were required for the job (they would usually only be mature tress) then you'd survey three points on the canopy and tringulate or pace out from the trunk in a known direction and offset the point back in the office using AutoCAD or similar. If more detail was needed then you'd need a total station at a known point in a clearing and then survey from that. This might need a few stations as the lasers need line of site from each tree to the station.
If I was surveying an orchard planted in neat lines I'd just survey the ends of the rows and pace it out (a bit of practice means I know how a big a stride I need for 1m!)

I'm planning something similar to yourself. Our apples come from a mix of gardens with one or two trees, mainly small orchards and a few orchards with >12 trees. My data collection at the moment consists of switching on the gps on my phone so photos are geotagged, taking photo of each tree then close ups of any labels or tags, apples, leaves etc. Back in the office these are (or more usually "will be when I have time") sorted into folders for each place. If they are geo-tagged you can make a KML for each folder that will then show your geo-ref photos as points in Google Earth. There are scripts on the web that do this. You can also use the photo's metadata to store more info if required.

You think spreadsheets and drawing programs are clunky? I've worked on a number of projects using big datasets in the form of a spreadsheet with hyperlinks to Google Maps and photo files on a CD! If you just need to know where something is - that is all you need. My favoured form of data processing was often to export from GIS to Excel, do the processing, then import back into GIS. If you need to start comparing or manipulating that data against other geo-datasets - that is when you need to reach for the GIS tools. GIS software will produce good readable standard maps from a template with scale, keys etc - but they are not drawing programs so for a one-off map I'd much prefer AutoCad or post-process the GIS produced map in a vector drawing program.

So to sum up - my advice is to keep it simple and just because you can store co-ordinates down to a millimeter it doesn't mean you have to.

Good luck

Kev

[Tom Bugs]

Ok - cool - still juggling it all in my mind.

Yes, very much agreeing on the KEEP IT SIMPLE approach!

It is 'only' around 100 trees - I already did an overlay in Photoshop using Google-Earth images, though it'd be nice to find more up to date aerial imagery - lots of trees were blown over and then removed the last couple of seasons and the new plantings (12 trees) have moved away from the old overly close grid (orchard was 7 yard spacing).

So, yes, maybe thinking on GPS is overly complex - simply overlaying points on an existing image should suffice. Just need to figure a suitable linked database approach that isn't super complex.
(Or maybe I just need to put in a good number of hours diving into it all!)

[Tom Bell]

Tom, I routinely use a free phone based system that plots to Open Streets maps and a commercial system with ESRI ArcGIS/ArcPan backbone.  The phone based system is probably sufficient for your needs.  It was developed at Oxford University and can be deployed on Android devices and perhaps Apple devices as well.  It is easy to program and it uploads your data to a Cloud database with a web map page.  You can see it here.

[Tom Bugs]

Ah, someone mentioned Epicollect at the end of the only other mapping thread (a few years back). So that's a good thing for me to investigate more now. Thanks!

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I have tried Epicollect. It is simple to use and works OK, but the real problem is that a cell phone GPS is not precise enough to discriminate between neighbour trees. The positioning given by the GPS has an average incertainty of about 10 meters. One would need the sort of GPS equipment that are used by land surveyors which are much more precise.

Claude

[Courtney Meier]

Hi Tom - To add a little more to this discussion: I have not used Epicollect, but after reading through their documentation the service they provide is very similar to Fulcrum when it comes to the needs that you have described. Looks like great software to me, and as well as being free, one can create custom data ingest forms, maps, .csv exports, etc. which is all excellent.

Others have already mentioned that you may encounter problems when it comes to mapping your trees with a recreational grade GPS due to the 10 m (30 ft) accuracy of these units. In my experience, it is generally true that accuracy goes down as canopy cover goes up, due to the line-of-sight nature of GPS technology. For this reason, we map many of our trees for the project I am working on when leaves are off, and that can help considerably. We also cross-check with aerial/satellite imagery (e.g., Google Earth) and update incorrect coordinates that are obviously wrong but that won't help if your orchard has been re-planted recently and the imagery doesn't reflect the reality on the ground. One more thing on this sub-topic: Recreational GPS can be quite good (~ 1m accuracy) provided you have no canopy interfering with the signal and you have connection to > 5 satellites. Taking all these things together is why I said you would need to play around in your orchard to see if a recreational GPS will meet your needs. It may, and it may not. There are expensive and technically complicated ways around all of these problems, but it may very well be overkill for what you really need!

Cheers, Courtney

Courtney Meier | Ecologist | Cider Hobbyist | Boulder, CO

[Eddie]

To add my two cents--- I use GIS in my day job, and have put my whole 20 acre orchard into GIS. I didn't find any reason to use GPS; just getting some good base maps was enough. From there I could locate all of my trees and digitize points for each tree as well as add in all of my irrigation, etc (yeah, I'm a little too into it). If you happen to live in an area where high-resolution LiDAR topgraphy data are available then bonus. QGIS is full-featured and works great if you want to invest the time to use it. You can also check out MapWindow which is a little simpler but still gets the job done

Map Window: https://www.mapwindow.org/

QGIS: https://www.qgis.org/en/site/

Source for NAIP aerial imagery (as well as soils data, etc): https://datagateway.nrcs.usda.gov/

LiDAR and other topography products: https://www.usgs.gov/core-science-systems/national-geospatial-program/national-map

[Tom Bell]

Tom, since this is in your orchard which I assume you live near, the GPS accuracy problem has a fairly simple solution.  If you locate each tree multiple times you will develop a cluster of points.  If you take enough measurements (20-50), you ignore the points on the periphery and select the centroid of the remaining points in the cluster as your location.  

In open country without a tree canopy, even inexpensive GPS units (<$100) that can use the WAAS and GLONASS satellite systems are as accurate as you are likely to need.  I put in soil gas surveys which require a location measurement when we install an instrument.  We use the GPS to find the instrument a few days later and take another reading.  The average difference between two measurements at the same point with a WAAS enabled GPS receiver that costs $60 over more than 10,000 locations has been around a meter.  That is not to say we don't have some big errors from time to time and scramble around trying to recover an instrument but in general even cheap instruments using DGPS are pretty good for most uses.  When I need centimeter precision or an accurate elevation, I break out a far more costly instrument.

[Tom Bugs]

 Well, near but not so near - 50 mins drive away now, so only there every few weekends.

Would seem like a good time of year to start given the lack of leaves - though there is also LOTS of pruning calling to be done!
So, yeah, good point on averaging GPS readings.

What I'd love to find is an open source of current aerial images - everything like Google Earth seems to be at least a couple of years old which I guess is do-able but more up-to-date would be so helpful.

[Tom Bell]

If you live in the States, the Dept of Ag produces high resolution air photos and digital imagery that is refreshed every few years.  There are several programs both old and new.  You can learn about them and how to purchase some or get others for free here. I wouldn't be surprised if similar services are available in Canada, Europe, Australia and New Zealand.

[jitd...@aol.com]

Well yes Tom. They are watching you all the time! Looking for an opportunity to tax you. No good saying your sparkling new cider brandy distillery is just a log sauna or a casual nerve agent plant. In the UK local authorities use aerial photographs to try to prove your greenhouse was constructed since planning permission became necessary. It's enough to give a paranoid the shivers.
JD

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[Joe Barfield]

I know this isn’t what you seek for your orchard, but it seems relevant for people seeking a way to have a map to remember where they encountered a tree while walking or driving around.
Whenever I come across a tree that I might want to return to, I drop a pin on google maps. Then I I swipe up and “save” it as a “apple tree” or whatever. The “+new list” let’s you name a new category.
Then later on my laptop, I can pull up my map of trees. There’s no info, but it is an easy way to keep track of random tree encounters. You might be able to “label” the location “crabapple” or something like that, but I haven’t done that yet...

Another easy way to make a quick map of trees from your iPhone is just take a picture of the tree with your iPhone. Then occasionally go through your photos and tag them #apple or #pear or #pippin.
Then you can pull up your places album and limit it to tags of trees. It takes some housekeeping, but you can take the snapshot without breaking stride and then tag everything later while enjoying a cider.
Again, this won’t serve the OP, but no doubt others will search for mapping tools for when they are out rambling about in the wild or on the road.

[Vince Wakefield]

I use an app called spotmarker for this, you can save pictures and info on each spot marked

Vince

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[Richard Swales]

In Slovakia the local winemaking suppliers don't seem to stock Campden
tablets. Apart from powdered metabisulphite, the main equivalents are
Littotabs, made by the German company, Erbsloeh.

I've done the following calculations and thinking out loud and I am
posting my results here in case anyone else finds themselves in the same
position at some point and also because I would appreciate it if someone
notices a hole in my calculations and conclusions in the last paragraph
related to the bubbling agent:

Each tablet contains Potassium metabisulphite (active ingredient) and
Potassium Hydrogen Carbonate (i.e. bicarbonate, to promote bubbling and
good spread of the active ingredient - you just chuck it in and it
fizzes) and releases 5g of free S02 (so equivalent to 22 campden tablets!)

10 tablets weigh about 150 grams. One tablet weighs about 15 grams.

One tablet releases 5 g of free SO2 = 0.07804 mols. This means they
contain 0.03902 mols of K2S2O5 (metabisulphite) = 8.675 g.

If the other (15-8.675) = 6.325g of the tablet is, as advertised,
Potassium Hydrogen Carbonate, then this is 0.06318 mol.

As malic acid is diprotic, this is likely to neutralize 0.03169 mols of
malic acid = 0.03169 = 4.236g.

Added to 100L of cider, one littotab will release 50 mg / litre of SO2,
and reduce the malic acid content by 42 mg / l, and result in 66.63 mg /
l of potassium malate.

If the above is correct then the reduction in malic acid is going to
insignificant I think. I have read that the potassium malate formed is
also used as a food additive (E351) primarily as an acidity regulator
but also as an antioxidant and flavour enhancer. Does anyone have any
experience with this and are the amounts concerned likely to affect taste?

Regards

Richard Swales

[Richard Torrens (lists)]

In article <45553e18-cb4c-4a06...@googlegroups.com>,

Joe Barfield <j...@joebarfield.com> wrote:
> Another easy way to make a quick map of trees from your iPhone is just
> take a picture of the tree with your iPhone. Then occasionally go
> through your photos and tag them #apple or #pear or #pippin.

We have a small just-planted orchard. I have mapped it by taking
gps-tagged photos
http://burwell.torrens.org/orchard/img/map.png
eventually I will incorporate this into a www page with links from each
tree to the description of the fruit, usually via
http://www.bernwodefruittrees.co.uk/applelist.htm
who lists 160 varieties of apple - more than I have found anywhere else.

--
Richard Torrens, Burwell, Cambs, UK.

[Tom Bugs]

Cheers for the continued tips - I was over there today but pruning seemed more pressing than trying out mapping (I put epicollect on my phone). Typical juggle of life!

[Keith Bishop]

Croptracker is the best... and will give you other tools to manage your operation too. In our 3rd year

https://www.croptracker.com/

https://twitter.com/croptrackerapp

If you want an app to handle your cidermaking...batches, costs, inventory and more, I just finished my first season using EKOS. a great tool.  

https://www.goekos.com/

On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 2:06 PM Tom Bugs <bugb...@gmail.com> wrote:

Cheers for the continued tips - I was over there today but pruning seemed more pressing than trying out mapping (I put epicollect on my phone). Typical juggle of life!

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"There's a way to do it better - find it." - Thomas Edison