I don't even think I could afford going with the minchah option...

[Ezra Goldschmiedt]

Heated debate with a chaver of mine:

"I have a friend" that, in his lifetime, has violated a number of averos that would demand korbanos. When the Beis HaMikdash is built, does he have to bring them? On the one hand, there are a number of sources that describe individuals who assume such an obligation - e.g., Shabbos 12b, where Rebbi Yishma'el ben Elisha claims (and makes a record in his notebook) that he will bring a chatas for tilting a lamp on Shabbos.

On the other hand, you won't find (to my knowledge anyways) anyone who makes a point of this lehalachah. No one says that you have to keep a notebook of all the korbanos you "owe". No one says you need to personally keep track of this.

I don't like arguments of omission, but it seems like quite a given in our world that there is no chiyuv korban for averos done today.

I can think of at least one context where the eventual building of the Beit HaMikdash has no impact on the mechanics of what happens now: Avodah Zarah 13b tells us that in a non-Mikdash world, there is no issur (de'oraisa) to effect a blemish on an animal, as it can't be offered anyways. No one in that Gemara argues that it should still be assur (de'oraisa) because it can potentially be brought when the Mikdash is built. This isn't a proof that there's no chiyuv korban for averos done today, but it indeed demonstrates that a concept exists which could be expanded to our discussion.

On the other hand, we also take as a given that a declaration of hekdesh nowadays takes effect despite the absence of a Mikdash. So... anyone want to weigh in on this? My friend is worried about the end of days and the implications this could have on his bank account...

- Ezra

--

[Ezra Goldschmiedt]

Hey, remember when you all jumped on the opportunity to help me answer this question? Yeah, I don't either. Unlike some however, I will share the fruits of my labor on this topic (sourcesheet, with my own comments in italics, attached).

The basic conclusion: most that address this issue explicitly assume that there we do incur obligations for korbanos nowadays. Those that suggest or imply otherwise are significant voices (Ramban, Mabit, Tur and commentaries), but their arguments (sometimes merely by omission) lack a degree of halachic weight and argument that we would expect in such a discussion.

In any event, Rabbi Nisson Kaplan (in his introduction to Shalmei Nisan, Meseches Shabbos, Perek Elu Kesharim) says that there are no significant sources that would indicate we should be keeping a record of these obligations in a notebook. He doesn't take that to the next step - saying that no such obligations exist - but it might very well make sense to.

When all is said and done, we'll all need significant help from Eliyahu when the Mikdash is rebuilt - (a) to tell us whether or not we have outstanding korbanos obligations, and (b) if so, what those obligations are. May we merit to deal with this!

- Ezra

--

[ES]

One more follow-up on Ezra's לרשום חיוב חטאת על פנקסו research:

Magen Avaraham 334:33 seems to assume that one should record the chiyuv chatas, simply citing the Gemara.

See Kaf HaChaim OC Vol 5 334, s"k 144-146 for interesting relevant additions.

[Ezra Goldschmiedt]

A few notes: Rabbi Kaplan isn't convinced that Magen Avraham is demanding that we keep a record, as he doesn't commit to the Gemara, he just quotes it:

רק במג״א כתב ע״ז, ״איתא בשבת דף י״ב באחד שעבר עבירה שחייב עליה חטאת וכתב בפנקס שכשיבנה בית המקדש יביאנה״. ואפילו המג״א לא כתב להדיא שצריך לכתוב על פינקסו. והמשנ״ב לא העתיק דברי המג״א... וכן שמעתי מהגאון הגדול הרח״ק שליט״א דהמנהג שלא לכתוב על הפנקס. ולחדש המנהג תקנתו זהו קלקלו. וכן שמעתי מעוד גדולי הוראה.

In other words, this would be a great chumrah, but don't do it. One of Rabbi Kaplan's most powerful proofs is the following:

וכן נראה להוכיח מדברי הב״י בריש סימן ש״א שכתב, אהא דכתב הטור ״אם באתי לכתוב כל הלכות שבת תרבה עלי המלאכה כי הלכתא רבתא לשבתא, וגם כי כל ״לט מלאכות״ ותולדותיהן ידועות, ואיני צריך להאריך בהם ולא בשיעוריהם שלא נאמרו שיעורים אלא לחיוב, אבל איסור איכא בכל שהוא׳׳. וביאר הב״י ״שאין צורך להאריך בהם כיון שאין צורך באותן הלכות בזמן הזה״ עכ״ל. ולכאורה מוכח דליכא חיובא כתיבה על הפינקם, דאי איכא חיוב, הא איכא נפק״מ טובא אף לזמן הזה, לידע אם עבר איסור דאורייתא וצריך לכתוב על פינקסו, או לאו.

Good luck finding that Beis Yosef though - I had no luck.

Concerning the requirement to fast a lot and give a ton of tzedakah (mentioned in Shulchan Aruch 334:26, and elaborated on by Kaf HaChayim quoted by Etan above), add that to the list of things we simply don't do. I'm kind of  glad that isn't expected, but why isn't it?

- Ezra

--
-- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "iChabura" group.
To post to this group, send email to cha...@googlegroups.com
Any questions, email iChabur...@gmail.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
chabura+u...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/chabura?hl=en
 
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "iChabura" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to chabura+u...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.