What Does This Group Stand For?

[Mike "Talien" Tresca]

Hi All,

What does this group stand for?  I'm curious as to our mission statement.  I went looking for it, but it looks like the existing web site is down: http://www.car-pga.org

Here's why I ask:  My understanding is the CAR-PGA was dedicated to positively engaging with non-gamers about gaming.  Back when it was formed (before my time), I believe the primary issue was the Satanic Panic and overall ignorance about RPGs. 

I wish I could say those days are over, but there is now a line of thinking that is aggressively divisive and reacts with unbridled hostility to anyone questioning the status quo.  It started with Gamer Gate, but let there be no doubt that it affects every aspect of gaming, including tabletop RPGs. D&D's surging popularity means our biggest problem is no longer ignorance about the game, it's the gaming population's own prejudices and biases. 

I think a group like the CAR-PGA should be dedicated to making role-playing as welcoming as possible for everyone -- and yes, that includes diverse voices and diverse topics.  Are we all older white guys?  Has there been any effort to reach out to more diverse gaming voices? How do we recruit new members?

And relatedly, what are we doing to advance RPGs as a group?  After seeing Black Panther, I've been thinking about otherism, and that led me to write two other articles about stereotypes that early D&D reflected -- phrases like "orientalism," or lumping all African nations into one fantasy region, or even whether or not we should be still classifying sentient humanoids as "races" in D&D. The first two threads were shut down, the most recent is still going: 

• Do We Still Need "Race" in D&D? http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?5099-Do-We-Still-Need-Race-in-D-D 
  
• Do We Still Need "Oriental Adventures"? http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?5036-Do-We-Still-Need-Oriental-Adventures 
  
• When Fantasy Meets Africa: http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?5018-When-Fantasy-Meets-Africa

I'm not sharing these threads to show my work, but rather a data points about the state of the RPG audience (at least, online) today as reflected in the comments.  I encourage you to read as much as you can tolerate.  You will see some amazingly thought out, really interesting points...and you may also despair for the future of our hobby.  

It seems to me that this group should be the champion of this kind of dialogue, even if you don't necessarily agree that things should change -- we should at least be asking the questions. I have no doubt you are all doing excellent work in personally advancing RPGs.  But as an organization, I'm concerned about this group's future.  

I welcome answers from prospective board members to the above questions. 

[Ted Skirvin]

I don't typically frequent Enworld. Can you give a brief rundown on why the first two threads were shut down?

Ted

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[Hawke Robinson]

Why is the website just a WP template with no information?
Who is supposed to be taking care of that?
-Hawke


On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 17:06:58 +0000 (UTC)
"'Ted Skirvin' via CAR-PGa: The Committee for the Advancement of

> - Do We Still Need "Race" in D&D?
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?5099-Do-We-Still-Need-Race-in-D-D 
>
> - Do We Still Need "Oriental Adventures"?
> http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?5036-Do-We-Still-Need-Oriental-Adventures 
>
> - When Fantasy Meets Africa:

> http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?5018-When-Fantasy-Meets-Africa
> I'm not sharing these threads to show my work, but rather a data
> points about the state of the RPG audience (at least, online) today
> as reflected in the comments.  I encourage you to read as much as you
> can tolerate.  You will see some amazingly thought out, really
> interesting points...and you may also despair for the future of our
> hobby. It seems to me that this group should be the champion of this
> kind of dialogue, even if you don't necessarily agree that things
> should change -- we should at least be asking the questions. I have
> no doubt you are all doing excellent work in personally advancing
> RPGs.  But as an organization, I'm concerned about this group's
> future. I welcome answers from prospective board members to the above
> questions. 
>



--

-Hawke Robinson
Washington State Department of Health Registered Recreation Therapist.
Founder & President
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[Mike "Talien" Tresca]

Here's a summary of every argument against any of the topics that have been raised about a diverse, welcoming group in gaming:

• "There are more important things to argue about": That discussing things like nuance, representation, and how we phrase things is unimportant and not worthy of discussion, which has the chilling effect of trying to squash the discussion in the first place.
  
• "No you're the racist!": That by bringing up the topic, you are anti-white people and therefore anyone bringing it up is actually a racist.
  
• "But what about the vikings?": If we're concerned about how other cultures are portrayed, "why doesn't anyone care about the vikings?" -- ignoring, of course, that not all cultures are equal or dominant. 
  
• "This isn't an issue because I game with diverse people/I'm a diverse gamer.": Minimizes the discussion by using one data point to make an argument that since the gamer in question doesn't experience it, it's not an issue.
  
• "Everyone is equal, so why are you being so racist?" Similar to "no you're the racist!" this argument ignores all of human history and argues that since everyone should be treated equally, the discussions are pointless.
  
• "Keep real life politics out of my fantasy!" By being inclusive, you are part of the "PC police" and therefore attempting to control thought, or ruin everyone else's game, and the slippery slope of even DISCUSSING a more inclusive environment is the beginning of the end for all gamers and must be resisted strenuously.

The moderator who runs the site has received death threats for even hosting the conversation.  Here's a sample: https://twitter.com/Morrus/status/978060591658086400

Both threads were closed for a combination of any of the above points.

[Hawke Robinson]

Years ago I ran into similar issues trying to have discussions on
rpg.net, so stopped using the site since they flag all such topics as
against their terms of service since it gets so heated. I had half a
dozen threads closed just for trying to have civil discussion on the
ratio of male/female gamers, but it blew up because it discussed
anything to do with sex or gender.

I tried a different conversations about ages of people in groups and I
forget what killed it, but again, some how people diverted it into an
identity politics debate, rather than just trying to get some feedback
from people.

Another is related to my ongoing current research on experience of bias
and exclusion in the gaming industry and community that I have been
working on since 2013, and have a WSU IRB from the WorldCon 73 Phase 2
part of the project. Need to finish that report this summer from the
two phases (IRB expires this Auguest, else will get it extended).

All attempts to discuss the topics from this legitimate research were
shut down on rpg.net and other RPG sites, almost immediately, even
before anyone could respond.

This meant moving all such topics to the rpgresearch.com website rather
than dealing with all the PC / anti-PC battles.

-Hawke

On Wed, 4 Apr 2018 10:51:59 -0700 (PDT)
"Mike \"Talien\" Tresca" <miket...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Here's a summary of every argument against any of the topics that
> have been raised about a diverse, welcoming group in gaming:
>

> - *"There are more important things to argue about":* That

> discussing things like nuance, representation, and how we phrase
> things is unimportant and not worthy of discussion, which has the
> chilling effect of trying to squash the discussion in the first place.

> - *"No you're the racist!": *That by bringing up the topic, you

> are anti-white people and therefore anyone bringing it up is actually
> a racist.

> - *"But what about the vikings?": *If we're concerned about how

> other cultures are portrayed, "why doesn't anyone care about the
> vikings?" -- ignoring, of course, that not all cultures are equal or
> dominant.

> - *"This isn't an issue because I game with diverse people/I'm a
> diverse gamer.": *Minimizes the discussion by using one data point to

> make an argument that since the gamer in question doesn't experience
> it, it's not an issue.

> - *"Everyone is equal, so why are you being so racist?" *Similar

> to "no you're the racist!" this argument ignores all of human history
> and argues that since everyone should be treated equally, the
> discussions are pointless.

> - *"Keep real life politics out of my fantasy!" *By being

> inclusive, you are part of the "PC police" and therefore attempting
> to control thought, or ruin everyone else's game, and the slippery
> slope of even DISCUSSING a more inclusive environment is the
> beginning of the end for all gamers and must be resisted strenuously.
>
> The moderator who runs the site has received death threats for even
> hosting the conversation. Here's a sample:
> https://twitter.com/Morrus/status/978060591658086400
>
> Both threads were closed for a combination of any of the above points.
>
>
> On Wednesday, April 4, 2018 at 1:07:00 PM UTC-4, Ted Skirvin wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > I don't typically frequent Enworld. Can you give a brief rundown on
> > why the first two threads were shut down?
> >
> >
> >
> > Ted
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wednesday, April 4, 2018, 12:33:02 PM EDT, Mike "Talien" Tresca <

> > - *Do We Still Need "Race" in D&D?*
> > http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?5099-Do-We-Still-Need-Race-in-D-D
> >
> > - *Do We Still Need "Oriental Adventures"? *
> > http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?5036-Do-We-Still-Need-Oriental-Adventures
> >
> > - *When Fantasy Meets Africa:*

> > http://www.enworld.org/forum/content.php?5018-When-Fantasy-Meets-Africa
> >
> > I'm not sharing these threads to show my work, but rather a data
> > points about the state of the RPG audience (at least, online) today
> > as reflected in the comments. I encourage you to read as much as
> > you can tolerate. You will see some amazingly thought out, really
> > interesting points...and you may also despair for the future of our
> > hobby.
> >
> > It seems to me that this group should be the champion of this kind
> > of dialogue, even if you don't necessarily agree that things should
> > change -- we should at least be asking the questions. I have no
> > doubt you are all doing excellent work in personally advancing
> > RPGs. But as an organization, I'm concerned about this group's
> > future.
> >
> > I welcome answers from prospective board members to the above
> > questions.
> >
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups "CAR-PGa: The Committee for the Advancement of Role-Playing
> > Games" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving
> > emails from it, send an email to car-pga+u...@googlegroups.com

> > <javascript:>. To post to this group, send email to
> > car...@googlegroups.com <javascript:> .

[Paul Cardwell]

First off, how does one sign up to get CAR-PGa discussions in the regular e-mail?  I have been a CAR-PGa member for about a quarter century, was Chair for 20 years, and except for the Newsletter, I don't know what is happening.  No idea who else is a member, or even if I am still considered one despite providing the convention schedule for the Newsletter.  We can hardly advance role-playing games if we don't know who the individual member are and update them on what is happening.

Paul Cardwell, plcar...@gmail.com

[Mike "Talien" Tresca]

Hi Paul,

You bring up a good point, in that there isn't a centralized database of actual members. At this point, we have several means of being a part of CAR-PGA. Below are summaries of each membership along with a link: 

* Google Group (56 members): https://groups.google.com/forum/?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email#!aboutgroup/car-pga

* LinkedIn (46 members): https://www.linkedin.com/groups/4439688/members/

* Facebook (30 likes): https://www.facebook.com/pg/carpga/community/?mt_nav=0&msite_tab_async=0

* The newsletter: David Millians has this list.

One thing of note is that times have changed and we are no longer able to ask questions about criminal background, etc. due to the Global Data Privacy Regulations that went into effect in 2016. I changed some of the original questions to just be more generic and make it easier to sign up.

If you're all amenable, I would be happy to send a link to this form (I created a new sign-up form: http://www.car-pga.org/join-us/) out to our existing "fans" in other social media to invite them to full membership, and then we can create a database of members based on that feedback. It's worth noting that we probably can't publish it publicly to protect them from spam, but could provide the full list on request. 

Let me know what you think!

Mike

[David Millians]

The newsletter goes out to 21 email addresses.

David

[Mike "Talien" Tresca]

Okay then, so assuming some overlap, between the Google Group, LinkedIn, and Facebook we have the potential for an additional 35 members. I will send out the Join Me! link to everyone in all three social media and then compile a database of our membership. Paul just tested out the link, so thanks for your submission, it works!

Mike