Free Giant 3D Printer - Maybe
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mattfreund
Jul 15, 2016, 4:03:30 AM7/15/16
to Coalition of Canadian Creative Spaces
TL;DR - It's shit and you don't want it. But, do you want it? Maybe you could have it, ask your members.
...
Do you want a giant rapid prototyping machine that uses wax and resin and UV cure? We (Protospace, Calgary) got it for free almost a year ago, and we don't!
We have decided to get rid of it within 2 weeks, I was dumb enough to volunteer to dispose of it (I had a strong opinion on how it should be done, so, that equals volunteering at Protospace, cuts down on the bikeshedding), so we have 3 options:
1 - Fix it.
2 - Donate it to another hackerspace TO BE USED AT THE SPACE AS A 3D PRINTER.
3 - Sell it.
If that fails, 2 weeks from now it's getting Office Spaced and vultured.
So, if we can fix it, we'll keep it. If we can sell it, meh, I dunno that I'll even try if any of you spaces want it and want to pick it up. Failing that I'll sell it.
I'm handling all options in parallel because things move slowly at Hackerspaces and none of you who might want it have time. You may decide you want it, and then we decide we no longer want to give it away. I'm asking early because I don't want anyone to say "If I would have known, we would have blah blah blah." So now you know.
What It Is:
http://wiki.protospace.ca/3D_printer,_MJM_(3D_Systems_InVision_si2)
It's a 3D Systems InVision Si2, first sold in 2003, this one's from 2006.
It's an order of magnitude more precise than filament printers.
I think if you were to buy a new one, there is still an active trade in rebate on this machine for something like $20,000... if that gives you an idea of how expensive it is to buy new.
When we got it: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/protospace-administration/j0FY3YBqYDs/HrsYxjk7BgAJ
Here's what Ian said about it:
----
For anybody who hasn't looked up the InVision si2, here's a summary of the technology it uses, called MultiJet Modeling. It's kind of a hybrid of SLA printing (the kind with a vat of resin and a projector or laser, e.g. Formlabs's Form 1) and binder jet printing (the kind that squirts glue onto layers of powder, e.g. Z Corp's Zprinters). It squirts out UV-curing resin and then cures it indiscriminately with a lamp, one layer at a time. It also prints a wax support material. This has the advantage over SLA that it doesn't use a vat, so material/color changes are easier, and the advantage over binder jet that the models are smooth, light, and strong. Disadvantages, respectively, are that the machine is more complicated, and that it is not a full-color printing process—each model is limited to one color (though can be painted).
As to getting materials: The materials the printer's info sheet calls for are Accura VisiJet M100 (model) and S100 (support). 3D Systems's website said in 2003
that M100 is an acrylic photopolymer. Proto3000, which has a location
in Calgary, used to sell it but no longer does. Other Accura and VisiJet
(which are actually separate brands usually) resins are still
available, though I don't know if they're compatible, and many other
acrylic photopolymers are also available, so I'm sure we can find
something that works with it. (Though I also found a material handling guide for the cartridges and waste material, which happens to say that you must not use
high-resolution model material (HR-M100) in this standard-resolution
printer or vice versa.) It may also be possible to use other types of
resin, meaning we could potentially print soft objects with this printer
too. 3D Systems also sold an oven called the InVision Finisher that
melted the support material away, which can probably be done with any
temperature-controlled oven. I haven't found any info on the support
material other than that it's a wax, but it's probably less important to
get its properties exactly the same than for the model material.
The
material handling guide also says, in case we do find a source for
M100, that uncured resin is toxic, irritating, allergenic, sensitizing,
probably environmentally harmful, and combustible. (Cured resin is only
combustible, with possible toxic combustion products.) Officially,
spills are to be treated with extreme care while wearing
chemical-resistant gloves and safety glasses with side shields to avoid
contact with the material, after waiting for the liquid resin to cool
(because apparently being a liquid means it's hot). While spills are
said to be highly unlikely when using their cartridges, they're probably
more likely if we're using resin we get in other containers, though
that resin likely won't be M100, so we'll need to read its MSDS.
Additionally, there're a waste material bag and two waste cartridge bins
that are to be emptied wearing gloves. In the US as of 2004, there was
also an EPA Significant New Use Rule (40 CFR §721.3850) to keep records
for 5 years of all M100 model material received and waste model material
disposed of, as well as the recipient of the waste; IDK if this kind of
requirement exists still/in Canada/for other materials. Because of all
of this, this printer will definitely require more training than the
current one, probably meaning a formal training course of some kind.
Regarding
final location, the guide suggests not putting it on a carpeted floor
because spilled resin is difficult to clean out of carpet.
---Why You Want It:
- Beautiful prints. Just flawless, gorgeous. They don't look 3d printed, they almost look injection molded.
- It was working, we used it, it made amazing things.
- Captive parts. We built the crescent wrench as one piece, with the roller captive. The support material is wax which you boil or burn out, leaving the resin.
- If's free.
- We have some resin and wax remaining we'll give you.
Why You Don't Want It, Even If It Worked Perfectly:
- It's like, 500lbs. I dunno, maybe only 300lbs. It's heavy.
- It's the size of a photocopier but only makes parts the size of a toaster.
- It uses a fair amount of power and keeps a room warm.
- It takes 4 hours to boot up (warm up the solid resin and wax into liquids), so you basically never shut it off.
- Resin tubes are $400 each. Wax tubes are $200 each (but are just really clean parafin wax, don't let them BS you, don't buy these).
- They don't really sell the resin anymore, or maybe they do, it's hard to get a straight answer.
- Resin syringes (just giant 3" syringes) are RFID tagged with expiry dates, the machine refuses to use expired resins.
- Our resins are all expired by several years (they still work just fine though).
- Resins are murder machine toxicy. No tasting no touching before it turns into plastic.
- It's very, very slow. It's not optimized either, it makes a full transition of the bed for ever little bit regardless of if there was a little horziontal stick you were building or not.
Why You Don't Want It, Because Obviously It's Not Working:
- It was donated to us by a guy who bought it as a fun and useful toy for his store and gave up on repairing it over and over. (Duh, it's a 3d printer).
- If you ever plug it into the internet, the machine updates the clock and then it refuses resins. Bios battery (presumably) is weak so it currently thinks it's 2007 and our 2009 resins still work. Needs a slaved laptop with NO INTERNETS EVER, xfering to it via USB stick.
- If it gets confused about what resins were in it, for example being unplugged for weeks to reset the date, it refuses to load OR eject cartridges. So you have to mostly disassemble it, have someone small reach a hand in and manually drive 4 steppers to get it to manually drop the syringes. Procedure here: https://groups.google.com/d/msg/protospace-discuss/Aesjp7r9xCQ/c1e4M04qCgAJ
- It glitches sometimes on startup, usually after a couple times it's good (4 hours per attempt).
- Turning it off and back on again hasn't fixed it lately.
Why You Might Want It Anyway:
- Maybe you can fix it.
- Maybe you can find open source resin for it so it's not 10-30x the cost of a filament printer to run.
- Maybe you love 3D printers and hate your life.
- Maybe you have a cold room.
- Might just be a heater error. That's my wild assed guess, and also a similar error it last had before it was given to us.
...
So, pass this along to your members if you're within shippingable range, and see if you want your crack at fixing it. In the meantime I'm going to try some hail mary emails to squeeze life out of it, and eventually sell it. If by some miracle more than one of you want it, I'll pick whoever I like most and talk them out of taking it.
Baha Baydar
Jul 15, 2016, 10:44:31 AM7/15/16
to Coalition of Canadian Creative Spaces
On Friday, July 15, 2016 at 5:03:30 AM UTC-3, mattfreund wrote:
TL;DR - It's shit and you don't want it. But, do you want it? Maybe you could have it, ask your members.
...
Do you want a giant rapid prototyping machine that uses wax and resin and UV cure? We (Protospace, Calgary) got it for free almost a year ago, and we don't!
We have decided to get rid of it within 2 weeks, I was dumb enough to volunteer to dispose of it (I had a strong opinion on how it should be done, so, that equals volunteering at Protospace, cuts down on the bikeshedding), so we have 3 options:
1 - Fix it.
2 - Donate it to another hackerspace TO BE USED AT THE SPACE AS A 3D PRINTER.
3 - Sell it.
<snip>
So, pass this along to your members if you're within shippingable range, and see if you want your crack at fixing it. In the meantime I'm going to try some hail mary emails to squeeze life out of it, and eventually sell it. If by some miracle more than one of you want it, I'll pick whoever I like most and talk them out of taking it.
I'm not sure Halifax counts as ship-able range but if you don't find a closer taker I'd be willing to pay to have it shipped out here to try and fix it for the HMS to use.
Matt Freund
Jul 15, 2016, 3:27:03 PM7/15/16
to CanadianCre...@googlegroups.com
> I'm not sure Halifax counts as ship-able range but if you don't find a
> closer taker I'd be willing to pay to have it shipped out here to try and
> fix it for the HMS to use.
Shippable range is self-defined by the person paying for it :P
> closer taker I'd be willing to pay to have it shipped out here to try and
> fix it for the HMS to use.
You did read the part about it being 500lbs and the size of a
photocopier, right?
Anyone else interested?
Baha Baydar
Jul 15, 2016, 6:31:58 PM7/15/16
to CanadianCre...@googlegroups.com
Oh yeah, but I've had to deal with shipping pallets of server gear in my "real life" so something fun like this will be worth it.
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Matt Freund
Jul 23, 2016, 1:27:59 AM7/23/16
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Update:
One local guy, a non-member none of us have met that has not been to
Protospace, would like it for himself in his personal shop. He has
offered in exchange to give us a sales demo of a product he'd like to
sell us. I think it's wonderful that we've grown to be prestigious
enough to be traded a sales demo, but I think I'd like to hold out for
some day when we'd really deserve the sales pitch, y'know, for free.
Maybe I'm just a dreamer.
On the fixing front, my phone stopped working as a telephone, so, no
progress there.
HMS - Your odds are climbing.
One local guy, a non-member none of us have met that has not been to
Protospace, would like it for himself in his personal shop. He has
offered in exchange to give us a sales demo of a product he'd like to
sell us. I think it's wonderful that we've grown to be prestigious
enough to be traded a sales demo, but I think I'd like to hold out for
some day when we'd really deserve the sales pitch, y'know, for free.
Maybe I'm just a dreamer.
On the fixing front, my phone stopped working as a telephone, so, no
progress there.
HMS - Your odds are climbing.
Baha Baydar
Jul 23, 2016, 1:50:30 PM7/23/16
to CanadianCre...@googlegroups.com
oh boy? :-/
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Matt Freund
Aug 8, 2016, 7:36:31 AM8/8/16
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Update:
Got a hold of a local company that services them. Going to see what,
if anything, will repair it.
Got an extension until thursday, will re-pitch then.
Also, got a soft offer from a member in the $1000 range for the
machine if it's repairable.
So:
#1 - Repairable and a source of cheap resin: Keep it.
#2 - Repairable but no source of cheap resin: Sell it to member for company.
#3 - Not reasonably repairable or otherwise deadlocks: Off to HMS.
Also got an offer of $40 from someone who wants to scrap it. For that,
I would suggest that we still donate it to HMS but the membership
decides.
What I expect: No source of free resin, I'll get laughed at for
asking, but it is repairable after buying some parts, and we'll
probably sell it instead of paying to do that ourselves. HMS, odds
have reversed on you a bit. I'll update again when I talk to the tech
and see what he has to say. But he left on vacation the day I got his
contact, so, it'll be another week.
Got a hold of a local company that services them. Going to see what,
if anything, will repair it.
Got an extension until thursday, will re-pitch then.
Also, got a soft offer from a member in the $1000 range for the
machine if it's repairable.
So:
#1 - Repairable and a source of cheap resin: Keep it.
#2 - Repairable but no source of cheap resin: Sell it to member for company.
#3 - Not reasonably repairable or otherwise deadlocks: Off to HMS.
Also got an offer of $40 from someone who wants to scrap it. For that,
I would suggest that we still donate it to HMS but the membership
decides.
What I expect: No source of free resin, I'll get laughed at for
asking, but it is repairable after buying some parts, and we'll
probably sell it instead of paying to do that ourselves. HMS, odds
have reversed on you a bit. I'll update again when I talk to the tech
and see what he has to say. But he left on vacation the day I got his
contact, so, it'll be another week.
Baha Baydar
Aug 8, 2016, 9:45:00 AM8/8/16
to CanadianCre...@googlegroups.com
No worries from the HMS end. I'd be paying to have it shipped out of my own pocket in order to spare it from being scrapped.
If you can find a better/closer home for it that's great.
Baha
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Matt Freund
Aug 17, 2016, 4:17:28 AM8/17/16
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My lead from the local company dried up mostly. They don't support
those machines or know much about them. They are the authorized dealer
for Western Canada. They are going to use their contacts to try to
find us some resins though.
Good news (for us)... came down to a broken thermistor in the belly of
the beast which we managed to repair. It then threw some other error
which is probably due to the machine being 90% disassembled. So, it's
probably working again. In the 4 hour warmup it is doing things better
than it has since we first got it.
Also, I got a 1 month stay of execution for it, for us to track down more leads.
those machines or know much about them. They are the authorized dealer
for Western Canada. They are going to use their contacts to try to
find us some resins though.
Good news (for us)... came down to a broken thermistor in the belly of
the beast which we managed to repair. It then threw some other error
which is probably due to the machine being 90% disassembled. So, it's
probably working again. In the 4 hour warmup it is doing things better
than it has since we first got it.
Also, I got a 1 month stay of execution for it, for us to track down more leads.
mattfreund
Aug 29, 2016, 7:41:12 PM8/29/16
to Coalition of Canadian Creative Spaces
Bump.
Other things were broken. Other things got fixed. It's up and running and printing again.
We're working on tracking down sources of cheap resin. Shapeways has a material in the same class they make stuff from, so there must still be an industrial supplier out there for it.
HMS - More and more looking like you won't get it :(. I'll lay off the updates and let you know if that changes or the sale falls through.
Other things were broken. Other things got fixed. It's up and running and printing again.
We're working on tracking down sources of cheap resin. Shapeways has a material in the same class they make stuff from, so there must still be an industrial supplier out there for it.
HMS - More and more looking like you won't get it :(. I'll lay off the updates and let you know if that changes or the sale falls through.
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