Laptop recommendations?

[Michael Kilpatrick]

Hello all,

has anyone got any particular recommendations for brands of laptop these
days? We need to replace Alena's ageing and tediously slow Sony Viao.

What I'm keen to avoid is all the nonsense media software and doo-dah
that might get bundled with a machine. Don't want a Windows system
stuffed with proprietory additions and launch bars like the Sony Viao -
but rather, an uncluttered Windows installation with a decent MS
Office/Word bundle (including Power Point writer, not just a PP reader).

And preferably no silly nonsense about batteries not working if they're
not made by and sold at a premium by the manufacturer.

I'd appreciate any suggestions for current preferred manufacturer.

thanks,

Michael

[Paul Bird]

Whenever this subject has come up before the word Lenovo has appeared
with great regularity in terms of durability. I'm not going to track
down the particular articles now but that was the firm impression I had
from the last round of "What's your laptop?".

It will be interesting to see if that has changed.

PB

[Roland Perry]

In message <7u2dnamZZ6k6Bu3T...@brightview.co.uk>, at
13:18:35 on Wed, 14 Sep 2011, Michael Kilpatrick
<ne...@mkilpatrick.cospam.uk> remarked:

>What I'm keen to avoid is all the nonsense media software and doo-dah
>that might get bundled with a machine. Don't want a Windows system
>stuffed with proprietory additions and launch bars like the Sony Viao -
>but rather, an uncluttered Windows installation with a decent MS
>Office/Word bundle (including Power Point writer, not just a PP reader).
>
>And preferably no silly nonsense about batteries not working if they're
>not made by and sold at a premium by the manufacturer.
>
>I'd appreciate any suggestions for current preferred manufacturer.

After many years I'll still recommend Dell. Especially factory-
refurbished ones, which are much better value as a one-off buy.

But good luck finding anyone bundling Office at the £400ish I assume you
are wanting to pay.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <9dblf0...@mid.individual.net>, at 13:36:46 on Wed, 14 Sep
2011, Paul Bird <pa...@nospamcamtutor.co.uk> remarked:

>Whenever this subject has come up before the word Lenovo has appeared
>with great regularity in terms of durability.

Cheap but clunky is what I'd call those. Depends what aspect of "being a
laptop" you are looking for. My last purchase was influenced most by
ruggedness and battery life.
--
Roland Perry

[Hamish]

> But good luck finding anyone bundling Office at the �400ish I assume you
> are wanting to pay.

OpenOffice (www.openoffice.org) is free and works well. It will open and
save Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Access happily. If you're not wedded
to using MS Office but are happy using something similar then it's well
worth it.

H

[Hamish]

Alternatively, if you're on a .ac.uk email, visit
http://viglen.software2.co.uk/microsoft-office-professional-plus-2010-student-digital-download.html
for MS Office Plus 2010 for £33.18.

[The Natural Philosopher]

Michael Kilpatrick wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> has anyone got any particular recommendations for brands of laptop these
> days? We need to replace Alena's ageing and tediously slow Sony Viao.
>
> What I'm keen to avoid is all the nonsense media software and doo-dah
> that might get bundled with a machine.

So install Linux instead.

>Don't want a Windows system
> stuffed with proprietory additions and launch bars like the Sony Viao -
> but rather, an uncluttered Windows installation with a decent MS
> Office/Word bundle (including Power Point writer, not just a PP reader).
>

Open office. Works on all platforms. Free.

> And preferably no silly nonsense about batteries not working if they're
> not made by and sold at a premium by the manufacturer.
>
> I'd appreciate any suggestions for current preferred manufacturer.
>

Ive got an old Acer here that's built like a tank =- batteries fucked
but that's only 60 quid.

Id buy something robust with at least 4G of RAM if you can find such.
All laptops are crap IMHO. Its the question of finding the one with the
least 'issues' .



> thanks,
>
> Michael

[Brian Morrison]

Or, if you want to be Oracle-free, LibreOffice.

--

Brian Morrison

[Roland Perry]

In message <aY1cq.7365$BK4....@newsfe22.ams2>, at 14:26:30 on Wed, 14
Sep 2011, Hamish <in...@h-amishsymington.com> remarked:

Depends on your application; OpenOffice is completely and utterly broken
when it comes to the Word documents I regularly get to review.

The OP was interested in Powerpoint origination, which has become much
more sophisticated in recent editions. I've seen people with problems
arising from trying to show animated PP's, possible with recent versions
- something to watch out for.
--
Roland Perry

[The Natural Philosopher]

Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <aY1cq.7365$BK4....@newsfe22.ams2>, at 14:26:30 on Wed, 14
> Sep 2011, Hamish <in...@h-amishsymington.com> remarked:
>>> But good luck finding anyone bundling Office at the £400ish I assume
>>> you are wanting to pay.
>>
>> OpenOffice (www.openoffice.org) is free and works well. It will open
>> and save Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Access happily. If you're not
>> wedded to using MS Office but are happy using something similar then
>> it's well worth it.
>
> Depends on your application; OpenOffice is completely and utterly broken
> when it comes to the Word documents I regularly get to review.
>

works by and large for nearly all the ones I get..

> The OP was interested in Powerpoint origination, which has become much
> more sophisticated in recent editions. I've seen people with problems
> arising from trying to show animated PP's, possible with recent versions
> - something to watch out for.

I try never to have dealings with people who use powerpoint.

[Roland Perry]

In message <j4qbji$oin$1...@news.albasani.net>, at 14:52:50 on Wed, 14 Sep
2011, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> remarked:

>> Depends on your application; OpenOffice is completely and utterly
>>broken when it comes to the Word documents I regularly get to review.
>
>works by and large for nearly all the ones I get..

Mileage varies, but every time I try OpenOffice it significantly
disappoints. As a result I can't possibly recommend it.

On the other hand, by all means use Foxit instead of Adobe, it's fine.

>> The OP was interested in Powerpoint origination, which has become
>>much more sophisticated in recent editions. I've seen people with
>>problems arising from trying to show animated PP's, possible with
>>recent versions - something to watch out for.
>
>I try never to have dealings with people who use powerpoint.

So why are you responding to the OP's thread ;)
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <j4qas5$n9q$1...@news.albasani.net>, at 14:40:21 on Wed, 14 Sep

2011, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> remarked:

>Open office. Works on all platforms.

But not for all documents. It's a pile of poo, frankly. Or perhaps
people are over-optimistic that it can keep up with Microsoft's new
features.
--
Roland Perry

[Michael Sanders]

On Sep 14, 2:39 pm, Hamish <i...@h-amishsymington.com> wrote:
> Alternatively, if you're on a .ac.uk email, visithttp://viglen.software2.co.uk/microsoft-office-professional-plus-2010...

> for MS Office Plus 2010 for £33.18.

Or for a similar amount even without .ac.uk email if you're the parent/
guardian of a child @ school. From:
http://www.software4students.co.uk/Microsoft_Office_2010_Professional_Plus-details.aspx
http://www.software4students.co.uk/Software4Students__Am_I_Eligible-article.aspx

Michael

[Alex Selby]

On 14/09/11 14:40, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> All laptops are crap IMHO. Its the question of finding the one with the

For an alternative view: all laptops are amazing because they can do a
billion things every second.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8r1CZTLk-Gk

[Tim Ward]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:nPaAhHx0...@perry.co.uk...

>
> Cheap but clunky is what I'd call those. Depends what aspect of "being a
> laptop" you are looking for. My last purchase was influenced most by
> ruggedness and battery life.

Mine by size and weight (I don't care about battery life, I hardly ever use
a laptop away from the mains - you get mains on trains and yachts these days
for example). There are thousands of the b*gg*rs to meet all needs, which
does make choosing one rather a pain.

--
Tim Ward - posting as an individual unless otherwise clear
Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk
Cambridge Accommodation Notice Board - www.brettward.co.uk/canb

[The Natural Philosopher]

99.999% of people haven't even learnt how to deal with Microsoft's old
features.

The most notable amongst who are numbered the people who allegedly wrote
the steaming pile of poo called 'office'

[Tim Ward]

"Hamish" <in...@h-amishsymington.com> wrote in message
news:aY1cq.7365$BK4....@newsfe22.ams2...

>
> OpenOffice (www.openoffice.org) is free and works well. It will open and
> save Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Access happily.

Or not, as the case may be. The third child has now asked "please Daddy can
I have a copy of the real Office so that I can open my school work?".

[The Natural Philosopher]

The trouble is, they don't. They break. the keys go. The screen goes.
after 5 years they are junk.

[Brian Morrison]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:55:25 +0100
"Tim Ward" <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:

> "Hamish" <in...@h-amishsymington.com> wrote in message
> news:aY1cq.7365$BK4....@newsfe22.ams2...
> >
> > OpenOffice (www.openoffice.org) is free and works well. It will
> > open and save Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Access happily.
>
> Or not, as the case may be. The third child has now asked "please
> Daddy can I have a copy of the real Office so that I can open my
> school work?".
>

It's beyond belief that schools are not using free software where it
will meet their needs, I can't imagine what they need to do at school
that requires MS Office.

--

Brian Morrison

[Tim Ward]

"Brian Morrison" <b...@fenrir.org.uk> wrote in message
news:20110914180...@surtees.fenrir.org.uk...

I'd rather the schools spent their time and my money on teaching children
than faffing around trying to sort out incompatibility problems with free
software. Schools should be using stuff that Just Works.

[Brian Morrison]

On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:06:33 +0100

"Tim Ward" <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:

> "Brian Morrison" <b...@fenrir.org.uk> wrote in message
> news:20110914180...@surtees.fenrir.org.uk...
> > On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:55:25 +0100
> > "Tim Ward" <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> "Hamish" <in...@h-amishsymington.com> wrote in message
> >> news:aY1cq.7365$BK4....@newsfe22.ams2...
> >> >
> >> > OpenOffice (www.openoffice.org) is free and works well. It will
> >> > open and save Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Access happily.
> >>
> >> Or not, as the case may be. The third child has now asked "please
> >> Daddy can I have a copy of the real Office so that I can open my
> >> school work?".
> >
> > It's beyond belief that schools are not using free software where it
> > will meet their needs, I can't imagine what they need to do at
> > school that requires MS Office.
>
> I'd rather the schools spent their time and my money on teaching
> children than faffing around trying to sort out incompatibility
> problems with free software. Schools should be using stuff that Just
> Works.
>

I use LibreOffice, and before it OpenOffice, and I've never found a
document I need to deal with that wouldn't open correctly. Roland may
have special requirements but everything I've seen my children do at
school in Word is something simple enough that one of the free suites
will suffice.

I'd rather see schools teach my children to use a sensible tool than
pay through the nose for proprietary stuff that increases my tax burden.

--

Brian Morrison

[The Natural Philosopher]

Brian Morrison wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:06:33 +0100
> "Tim Ward" <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> "Brian Morrison" <b...@fenrir.org.uk> wrote in message
>> news:20110914180...@surtees.fenrir.org.uk...
>>> On Wed, 14 Sep 2011 17:55:25 +0100
>>> "Tim Ward" <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Hamish" <in...@h-amishsymington.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:aY1cq.7365$BK4....@newsfe22.ams2...
>>>>> OpenOffice (www.openoffice.org) is free and works well. It will
>>>>> open and save Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Access happily.
>>>> Or not, as the case may be. The third child has now asked "please
>>>> Daddy can I have a copy of the real Office so that I can open my
>>>> school work?".
>>> It's beyond belief that schools are not using free software where it
>>> will meet their needs, I can't imagine what they need to do at
>>> school that requires MS Office.
>> I'd rather the schools spent their time and my money on teaching
>> children than faffing around trying to sort out incompatibility
>> problems with free software. Schools should be using stuff that Just
>> Works.
>>
>
> I use LibreOffice, and before it OpenOffice, and I've never found a
> document I need to deal with that wouldn't open correctly.

Mmm.

>Roland may have special requirements

Uhuh?

> but everything I've seen my children do at
> school in Word is something simple enough that one of the free suites
> will suffice.

No doubt Roland sends his rats to a school where there is an MS trained
nerd, who consistently looks for, finds, and uses the one feature that
actually doesn't work on open office. And makes it the default template
for everyone else.

>
> I'd rather see schools teach my children to use a sensible tool than
> pay through the nose for proprietary stuff that increases my tax burden.
>

Indeed.

[Roland Perry]

In message <j4qm82$hnd$1...@news.albasani.net>, at 17:54:26 on Wed, 14 Sep

2011, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>> Open office. Works on all platforms.
>> But not for all documents. It's a pile of poo, frankly. Or perhaps
>>people are over-optimistic that it can keep up with Microsoft's new
>>features.
>
>99.999% of people haven't even learnt how to deal with Microsoft's old
>features.

There are several "new" features which crop up quite frequently though,
for example change-tracking balloons in Word and animated slides in
Powerpoint.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <20110914180...@surtees.fenrir.org.uk>, at 18:09:43
on Wed, 14 Sep 2011, Brian Morrison <b...@fenrir.org.uk> remarked:

>Roland may have special requirements but everything I've seen my
>children do at school in Word is something simple enough that one of
>the free suites will suffice.

I don't have special requirements, unless "being able to read many of
the documents circulating amongst my colleagues" is regarded as special.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <j4qnbk$jt0$4...@news.albasani.net>, at 18:13:24 on Wed, 14 Sep

2011, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> remarked:

>No doubt Roland sends his rats to a school where there is an MS trained
>nerd, who consistently looks for, finds, and uses the one feature that
>actually doesn't work on open office. And makes it the default template
>for everyone else.

I get very few Office documents from the school. One of them says
"Microsoft Word 97-2003 Document" but I don't know if that means it was
made by that version of Word, or by something trying to be compatible
with that.
--
Roland Perry

[Brian Morrison]

Yes, that is different to me. I only every have to deal with Word
documents at work, for which I have a company provided computer with
Office 2007 on it. For everything else I have LibreOffice which has
never failed to correctly view anything I've ever thrown at it, but I
don't look at anything complex and don't have people sending me complex
documents with multiple revisions (I don't even have this at work in
fact).

On that basis, your requirements seem quite special to me.

--

Brian Morrison

[Ben Hutchings]

Lenovo makes a wide range of laptops. Even within the Thinkpad brand
there's the R-series which does indeed seem to be cheap and clunky,
the X-series which is much more compact and also more expensive, and
the T-series somewhere in the middle.

Thinkpads are generally well-supported under Linux but the little
experience I have running Windows has not been so good (apparently
due to drivers, not just general awfulness of Windows XP). That's on
a model that's about 4 years old now, though.

Ben.

--
Ben Hutchings
We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking.
- Albert Camus

[tony sayer]

In article <9dc4jt...@mid.individual.net>, Tim Ward
<t...@brettward.co.uk> scribeth thus

>"Hamish" <in...@h-amishsymington.com> wrote in message
>news:aY1cq.7365$BK4....@newsfe22.ams2...
>>
>> OpenOffice (www.openoffice.org) is free and works well. It will open and
>> save Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Access happily.
>
>Or not, as the case may be. The third child has now asked "please Daddy can
>I have a copy of the real Office so that I can open my school work?".
>

What is wrong with it exactly or generally come to that. Just opening
doc's or is there something else. Surely the Word.Doc is a very common
format?.

Is Libre office any better?..
--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

In article <+$IGNb1$WLcO...@perry.co.uk>, Roland Perry
<rol...@perry.co.uk> scribeth thus

>In message <j4qbji$oin$1...@news.albasani.net>, at 14:52:50 on Wed, 14 Sep
>2011, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>> Depends on your application; OpenOffice is completely and utterly
>>>broken when it comes to the Word documents I regularly get to review.
>>
>>works by and large for nearly all the ones I get..
>
>Mileage varies, but every time I try OpenOffice it significantly
>disappoints. As a result I can't possibly recommend it.
>
>On the other hand, by all means use Foxit instead of Adobe, it's fine.

Indeed it is, much better:))..

>
>>> The OP was interested in Powerpoint origination, which has become
>>>much more sophisticated in recent editions. I've seen people with
>>>problems arising from trying to show animated PP's, possible with
>>>recent versions - something to watch out for.
>>
>>I try never to have dealings with people who use powerpoint.
>
>So why are you responding to the OP's thread ;)

--
Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

In article <j4qm82$hnd$1...@news.albasani.net>, The Natural Philosopher
<t...@invalid.invalid> scribeth thus

>Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <j4qas5$n9q$1...@news.albasani.net>, at 14:40:21 on Wed, 14 Sep
>> 2011, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> remarked:
>>
>>> Open office. Works on all platforms.
>>
>> But not for all documents. It's a pile of poo, frankly. Or perhaps
>> people are over-optimistic that it can keep up with Microsoft's new
>> features.
>
>99.999% of people haven't even learnt how to deal with Microsoft's old
>features.
>

LOL!, too bloody true;!.. And are they needed anyway?...

>The most notable amongst who are numbered the people who allegedly wrote
>the steaming pile of poo called 'office'

--
Tony Sayer

[Tim Ward]

"tony sayer" <to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9XrM7hmn...@bancom.co.uk...

>
> What is wrong with it exactly or generally come to that. Just opening
> doc's or is there something else. Surely the Word.Doc is a very common
> format?.

Dunno, haven't chosen to spend the time investigating.

> Is Libre office any better?..

Who cares? At �30/seat or whatever Office is less than the kids spend on
games anyway.

[Alex Selby]

Are you snowboarding on it?

[Jon Green]

On 14/09/2011 18:06, Tim Ward wrote:
> I'd rather the schools spent their time and my money on teaching children
> than faffing around trying to sort out incompatibility problems with free
> software. Schools should be using stuff that Just Works.

Like Windows ME, and Vista? *snork*

Jon
--
WATCH OUT FOR THE SPAM BLOCK!
Replace 'deadspam' with 'green-lines' to reply in email!

[The Natural Philosopher]

Phil W Lee wrote:
> The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> considered Wed, 14 Sep

> Maybe you can explain how the Dell Latitude CPi R400GT (P II-400)
> that's sitting in it's docking station on my desk is still working
> fine?

the phrase docking station, desk, probably is the key.


> 9 years old, and still going strong - and that even includes one
> original battery! (ok, it only gives about 60% of it's specified life
> these days, but I can pick up another for £40 - and even fit the
> second one instead of the DVD or 1.44FD).
> The hard drive got upgraded, so it isn't as old as the rest, although
> there was nothing wrong with the old one apart from it's size.

[Richard Torrens (News)]

In article <7u2dnamZZ6k6Bu3T...@brightview.co.uk>,
Michael Kilpatrick <ne...@mkilpatrick.cospam.uk> wrote:
> Hello all,

> has anyone got any particular recommendations for brands of laptop these
> days? We need to replace Alena's ageing and tediously slow Sony Viao.

> What I'm keen to avoid is all the nonsense media software and doo-dah
> that might get bundled with a machine. Don't want a Windows system
> stuffed with proprietory additions and launch bars like the Sony Viao -
> but rather, an uncluttered Windows installation with a decent MS
> Office/Word bundle (including Power Point writer, not just a PP reader).

> And preferably no silly nonsense about batteries not working if they're
> not made by and sold at a premium by the manufacturer.

> I'd appreciate any suggestions for current preferred manufacturer.

> thanks,

> Michael


Any Windows computer wilt be automatically updated (unles you turn this
of).

As it is updated - it gets slower. A deliberate MicroSoft policy - they
make most of their money by hardware licensing, so they delibrately
obscolesce all machines.

Apple on the other hand don't do this: at each update the machine gets
faster.

Or there is Ubuntu. Free and can do most things.

--
------------------------------------------------------------------
Richard Torrens. News email address is valid - for a limited time only.
http://www.Torrens.org.uk for genealogy, natural history, wild food, walks, cats
and more!

[Richard Torrens (News)]

In article <m$LA9Lyz6...@perry.co.uk>,

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> Depends on your application; OpenOffice is completely and utterly broken
> when it comes to the Word documents I regularly get to review.

Another of Microsoft's policies! Support of old file formats is abyssmal -
deliberately. Keep changing the goalposts and you make people buy the
latest version and change their hardware.

It is not the hardware that slows a machine down, but the software!

I still use RISC O/S in a 10 year old machine. We have Mac, Ubuntu, Vista,
XP and Win 7 machines. We also have a NAS where backup copies of photos
(amout 4-5Mb each) are kept. I was extremely suprised to find that, when
accessing these over the Network - the RISC OS machine is far faster than
any other!

That doesn't apply to local copies though, but RISC OS at 600MHz is still
significantly speedy!

Incidentally Open Office has forked. This is due to commercial control of
Open Office. The fork is called LibreOffice.

[Andrew Cleland]

On 15/09/2011 08:42, Richard Torrens (News) wrote:
>
> Apple on the other hand don't do this: at each update the machine gets
> faster.
>

I'd agree with point releases to versions of OS X - the .1 update often
makes a big difference to the responsiveness of a release of OS X.

However, and this is totally qualitative, my feeling is that from 10.0
to 10.4 each release brought a definite increase in performance. Since
then though it's less clear-cut, 10.5 'Leopard' in particular I recall
as being pretty slow and I remember downgrading some PowerPC Macs from
10.5 to 10.4. 'Snow Leopard' (10.6) was a definite improvement over
Leopard but not an option for a PowerPC Mac. Now 'Lion' (10.7) seems to
be following in the pattern of Leopard in being pretty sluggish - I've
just rolled-back my 2008 Core 2 Duo with 4GBytes RAM Macbook Pro to Snow
Leopard, with which it seems much happier.

Maybe there'll be a Snow Lion to sort out Lion the way Snow Leopard
sorted out Leopard...

[Naich]

Wed, 14 Sep 2011 18:06:33 +0100 - Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:

> I'd rather the schools spent their time and my money on teaching children
> than faffing around trying to sort out incompatibility problems with free
> software. Schools should be using stuff that Just Works.

I'd rather the schools spent their time and money teaching children how to
use computers rather than teaching them how to use one particular software
package that is deliberately incompatable with most of the other ones
that are available.

Use Open/Libre Office and all compatability problems vanish - it works on
more platforms than MS Office and uses open standards for the file
formats.

It's utterly insane that schools are still using MS Office.

Naich.
--
http://naich.net ..... My rubbish blog
http://asshol.es ..... Stupidity in pictures
http://sodwork.com ... A waste of time
Motto: Don't you just hate rhetorical questions?

[Naich]

As long as you all use the same version of Word. The last time I received
an MS Word document from someone, it wouldn't render properly on MS Office
at work, but was fine on OpenOffice at home.

[Roland Perry]

In message <j4se94$tuk$2...@dont-email.me>, at 08:50:44 on Thu, 15 Sep
2011, Naich <d...@mrao.cam.ac.uk> remarked:

>> I don't have special requirements, unless "being able to read many of
>> the documents circulating amongst my colleagues" is regarded as special.
>
>As long as you all use the same version of Word. The last time I received
>an MS Word document from someone, it wouldn't render properly on MS Office
>at work, but was fine on OpenOffice at home.

Were you using the same or later version of Word than the author?

The documents I mention as getting are normally written on quite recent
versions of Word or Powerpoint (because they use recent features). I've
never had a document refuse to open when using a suitably up to date
version of Word myself.

But I agree you can get into trouble trying to open a very recent, or
.docx/.xlsx, file on an old version of Word. But wouldn't you kinda
expect that?
--
Roland Perry

[Alan Braggins]

In article <9dc58p...@mid.individual.net>, Tim Ward wrote:
>"Brian Morrison" <b...@fenrir.org.uk> wrote in message

>> "Tim Ward" <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:
>>> "Hamish" <in...@h-amishsymington.com> wrote in message
>>> >

>>> > OpenOffice (www.openoffice.org) is free and works well. It will
>>> > open and save Word, Excel, PowerPoint and Access happily.
>>>
>>> Or not, as the case may be. The third child has now asked "please
>>> Daddy can I have a copy of the real Office so that I can open my
>>> school work?".

You hadn't learnt your lesson after the first two? Or giving every child
a real copy of Office is something to be avoided until actually asked
for?

>> It's beyond belief that schools are not using free software where it
>> will meet their needs, I can't imagine what they need to do at school
>> that requires MS Office.
>
>I'd rather the schools spent their time and my money on teaching children
>than faffing around trying to sort out incompatibility problems with free
>software. Schools should be using stuff that Just Works.

Ditch MS Office at school, use OpenOffice, and the faffing around goes away.
You can give every child[1] a free legal copy of the software, available for
Windows, Linux, or Mac, and stop worrying about incompatibility problems.

Or use MS Office and accept that not every child will have the same version
at home even if half the parents are prepared to use a "pirate" copy, and
live with faffing.

[1] There are still problems of disadvantaging children whose parents can't
afford a computer at all, but that's a separate issue.

[Roland Perry]

In message <j4se28$tuk$1...@dont-email.me>, at 08:47:04 on Thu, 15 Sep
2011, Naich <d...@mrao.cam.ac.uk> remarked:
>

>I'd rather the schools spent their time and money teaching children how to
>use computers rather than teaching them how to use one particular software
>package that is deliberately incompatable with most of the other ones
>that are available.
>
>Use Open/Libre Office and all compatability problems vanish - it works on
>more platforms than MS Office and uses open standards for the file
>formats.
>
>It's utterly insane that schools are still using MS Office.

I'm not a Microsoft fan, but schools need to move with the times and
turn out children who are computer literate and can operate software
they'll find in the outside world - which is almost always going to be
Office. There's a time and place for "software wars", but not at the
expense of childrens' education.
--
Roland Perry

[tony sayer]

In article <Z43$8wpC7b...@perry.co.uk>, Roland Perry
<rol...@perry.co.uk> scribeth thus

>In message <j4se28$tuk$1...@dont-email.me>, at 08:47:04 on Thu, 15 Sep
>2011, Naich <d...@mrao.cam.ac.uk> remarked:
>>
>>I'd rather the schools spent their time and money teaching children how to
>>use computers rather than teaching them how to use one particular software
>>package that is deliberately incompatable with most of the other ones
>>that are available.
>>
>>Use Open/Libre Office and all compatability problems vanish - it works on
>>more platforms than MS Office and uses open standards for the file
>>formats.
>>
>>It's utterly insane that schools are still using MS Office.
>
>I'm not a Microsoft fan, but schools need to move with the times and
>turn out children who are computer literate and can operate software
>they'll find in the outside world - which is almost always going to be
>Office.

And why does it or should it be office?..

Do most businesses really need this?. Most all the firms I go to or have
involvement with just write quite straightforward letters and send
e-mails and do accounts and databases.. not all in all that much of a
problem.

Of course the real reason is that the suppliers they go to will sell
them what they can make profits on !.....

>There's a time and place for "software wars", but not at the
>expense of childrens' education.

--

Tony Sayer

[tony sayer]

>Apple on the other hand don't do this: at each update the machine gets
>faster.
>
>Or there is Ubuntu. Free and can do most things.
>

Yes it can but I have a few people who want to go back to Windows
because they simply don't like the "look" of it the desktop isn't all
that smart. Have they or someone improved this in recent times?..
--
Tony Sayer

[Roland Perry]

In message <slrnj73fq...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 10:03:18 on
Thu, 15 Sep 2011, Alan Braggins <ar...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:

>Ditch MS Office at school, use OpenOffice, and the faffing around goes away.
>You can give every child[1] a free legal copy of the software, available for
>Windows, Linux, or Mac, and stop worrying about incompatibility problems.

You seem to think each child has a PC. It's more likely there are a few
rooms full of PCs which they use in turn. So what's required is a
decision about loading software onto those shared PCs, and also whether
OpenOffice qualifies as a suitable platform according to the exam
syllabus.

It's not obvious that it either does or doesn't (eg would the syllabus
mention Office as such, or a requirement for compatibility with a
particular version of Office). Given that you are also training the
children in the UI, as well as teaching "computer appreciation" I don't
think we should make assumptions here.
--
Roland Perry

[Kieran Mansley]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 10:00:50 +0100, Roland Perry wrote:

> I'm not a Microsoft fan, but schools need to move with the times and
> turn out children who are computer literate and can operate software
> they'll find in the outside world - which is almost always going to be
> Office.

Trying to teach children to operate a particular version of Office is
daft, as by the time they start work their employer will likely be using
a more recent version anyway, and it will all have changed. They need
transferable skills, so they can sit down in front of any version of
Office (either a MS version, or open version) and get what they want to
done.

Kieran

[Roland Perry]

In message <lrgKE7nI...@bancom.co.uk>, at 10:44:40 on Thu, 15 Sep
2011, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk> remarked:

>>I'm not a Microsoft fan, but schools need to move with the times and
>>turn out children who are computer literate and can operate software
>>they'll find in the outside world - which is almost always going to be
>>Office.
>
>And why does it or should it be office?..

It just is, being the market leader.

>Do most businesses really need this?. Most all the firms I go to or have
>involvement with just write quite straightforward letters and send
>e-mails and do accounts and databases.. not all in all that much of a
>problem.

But they'll expect you to be able to operate the Office they'll provide
you with. I've often seem specific Office applications mentioned in job
descriptions.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <j4siv4$p8k$1...@dont-email.me>, at 10:10:44 on Thu, 15 Sep
2011, Kieran Mansley <kieran....@gmail.com> remarked:

>> I'm not a Microsoft fan, but schools need to move with the times and
>> turn out children who are computer literate and can operate software
>> they'll find in the outside world - which is almost always going to be
>> Office.
>
>Trying to teach children to operate a particular version of Office is
>daft, as by the time they start work their employer will likely be using
>a more recent version anyway, and it will all have changed.

In the mean time they'll be needing to keep up to date of course.

>They need transferable skills, so they can sit down in front of any
>version of Office (either a MS version, or open version) and get what
>they want to done.

Transferable skills are good, and in this case it's transferable from
one version of Office to a newer one. Being more generic than that is
probably over-ambitious.
--
Roland Perry

[Paul Rudin]

d...@mrao.cam.ac.uk (Naich) writes:

> Wed, 14 Sep 2011 19:04:53 +0100 - Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <20110914180...@surtees.fenrir.org.uk>, at 18:09:43
>> on Wed, 14 Sep 2011, Brian Morrison <b...@fenrir.org.uk> remarked:
>
>> >Roland may have special requirements but everything I've seen my
>> >children do at school in Word is something simple enough that one of
>> >the free suites will suffice.
>
>> I don't have special requirements, unless "being able to read many of
>> the documents circulating amongst my colleagues" is regarded as special.
>
> As long as you all use the same version of Word. The last time I received
> an MS Word document from someone, it wouldn't render properly on MS Office
> at work, but was fine on OpenOffice at home.

These days google docs does a reasonable job of rendering most word
files.

[bob]

On Sep 15, 11:00 am, Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <j4se28$tu...@dont-email.me>, at 08:47:04 on Thu, 15 Sep

> 2011, Naich <d...@mrao.cam.ac.uk> remarked:
>
>
>
> >I'd rather the schools spent their time and money teaching children how to
> >use computers rather than teaching them how to use one particular software
> >package that is deliberately incompatable with most of the other ones
> >that are available.
>
> >Use Open/Libre Office and all compatability problems vanish - it works on
> >more platforms than MS Office and uses open standards for the file
> >formats.
>
> >It's utterly insane that schools are still using MS Office.
>
> I'm not a Microsoft fan, but schools need to move with the times and
> turn out children who are computer literate and can operate software
> they'll find in the outside world - which is almost always going to be
> Office.

In that case the school should be running XP, Office 2000 and IE6, as
that's what the pupils are likely to find when they enter the world of
work.

Robin

[Jon Green]

On 15/09/2011 11:55, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <lrgKE7nI...@bancom.co.uk>, at 10:44:40 on Thu, 15 Sep
> 2011, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk> remarked:

>> Do most businesses really need this?. Most all the firms I go to or have
>> involvement with just write quite straightforward letters and send
>> e-mails and do accounts and databases.. not all in all that much of a
>> problem.
>
> But they'll expect you to be able to operate the Office they'll provide
> you with. I've often seem specific Office applications mentioned in job
> descriptions.

Straw man. The vast majority of the schoolkids will be doing jobs that
don't require deep expertise in (specifically) MS Office.

Given that Libre/OpenOffice's uptake is increasing rapidly, as companies
and government bodies realise that they don't have to pay a fortune to
MS, I'd counter-argue that the schools have a responsibility to their
students to ensure that they're familiar with LO/OO, because what's in
offices today isn't necessarily what'll be in offices by the time the
kids have got their GCSEs, 'A' Levels and degrees.

[Jon Green]

On 15/09/2011 10:54, Roland Perry wrote:
> You seem to think each child has a PC. It's more likely there are a few
> rooms full of PCs which they use in turn. So what's required is a
> decision about loading software onto those shared PCs, and also whether
> OpenOffice qualifies as a suitable platform according to the exam syllabus.

If any qualification other than explicitly about MS products requires MS
Office specifically, and not an office package in general, the
examination board ought to be taken out and shot^Wput in the stocks.

Once the Police have concluded their enquiries, of course.

[Jon Green]

On 14/09/2011 21:35, Tim Ward wrote:
> "tony sayer"<to...@bancom.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:9XrM7hmn...@bancom.co.uk...
>>
>> What is wrong with it exactly or generally come to that. Just opening
>> doc's or is there something else. Surely the Word.Doc is a very common
>> format?.
>
> Dunno, haven't chosen to spend the time investigating.
>
>> Is Libre office any better?..
>
> Who cares?

I do, and by the sound of it I'm not the only one.

> At £30/seat or whatever Office is less than the kids spend on
> games anyway.

Yeah, that's not the only industry where the first "deal" is on the
house. And not the only one where the results, further down the line,
are...not in the user's best interests, too.

[Jon Green]

On 14/09/2011 18:34, Roland Perry wrote:
> There are several "new" features which crop up quite frequently though,
> for example change-tracking balloons in Word and animated slides in
> Powerpoint.

I doubt that "change-tracking balloons" will be a mission-critical
feature for anyone (it's just a pretty wrap around revision tracking
that's been around for ages), and as for the other ... think of it as an
incentive to move away from the horrid crutch that is PowerPoint, one of
the greatest wastes of time and money in office life.

[Roland Perry]

In message
<c4e7031e-3963-4538...@h6g2000yqe.googlegroups.com>, at
04:52:30 on Thu, 15 Sep 2011, bob <rcp...@gmail.com> remarked:

>> I'm not a Microsoft fan, but schools need to move with the times and
>> turn out children who are computer literate and can operate software
>> they'll find in the outside world - which is almost always going to be
>> Office.
>
>In that case the school should be running XP, Office 2000 and IE6, as
>that's what the pupils are likely to find when they enter the world of
>work.

So that's one vote for "the outside world will be in arrears" and
another [earlier] for "the outside world will be ahead". On average,
today's version of Office is the sensible compromise I think.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <kKlcq.118257$wY2....@en-nntp-01.am2.easynews.com>, at
12:56:59 on Thu, 15 Sep 2011, Jon Green <jo...@deadspam.com> remarked:

>>> Do most businesses really need this?. Most all the firms I go to or have
>>> involvement with just write quite straightforward letters and send
>>> e-mails and do accounts and databases.. not all in all that much of a
>>> problem.
>>
>> But they'll expect you to be able to operate the Office they'll provide
>> you with. I've often seem specific Office applications mentioned in job
>> descriptions.
>
>Straw man. The vast majority of the schoolkids will be doing jobs that
>don't require deep expertise in (specifically) MS Office.

I think you need to recalibrate your expectations of what the schools
and employers are talking about. Reasonable proficiency with the market
leading product is where it's at.
--
Roland Perry

[Brian Morrison]

I thought being able to perform common tasks like knowing how to write
a letter was a requirement for businesses, that would come above being
able to use software in most places. And yet businesses are constantly
complaining that the school leavers they see often can't do this basic
stuff.

--

Brian Morrison

[Paul Bird]

Knowing the difference between lose and loose would be a start. Also
the difference between impact and affect and effect.

PB

[tony sayer]

In article <J4x7cFxa...@perry.co.uk>, Roland Perry
<rol...@perry.co.uk> scribeth thus

>In message <lrgKE7nI...@bancom.co.uk>, at 10:44:40 on Thu, 15 Sep
>2011, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>I'm not a Microsoft fan, but schools need to move with the times and
>>>turn out children who are computer literate and can operate software
>>>they'll find in the outside world - which is almost always going to be
>>>Office.
>>
>>And why does it or should it be office?..
>
>It just is, being the market leader.

And thats the reason its profitable for suppliers to sell;!..

>
>>Do most businesses really need this?. Most all the firms I go to or have
>>involvement with just write quite straightforward letters and send
>>e-mails and do accounts and databases.. not all in all that much of a
>>problem.
>
>But they'll expect you to be able to operate the Office they'll provide
>you with. I've often seem specific Office applications mentioned in job
>descriptions.

--

Tony Sayer

[The Natural Philosopher]

No. reasonable ability to actually TYPE would be more useful...

[Paul Bird]

On 15/09/2011 14:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

> No. reasonable ability to actually TYPE would be more useful...

Oh the irony.

[Naich]

If they can only use one package to do word processing then they are not
computer literate. The way all of the word processors mentioned here work
is identical. If understand how one works you know how they all work.

It's not as if people aren't used to encountering differing functionality
anyway - look at all the web sites out there and all the different ways
they have of working. And yet people still seem to be able to use them.

Naich.
--
http://naich.net ..... My rubbish blog
http://asshol.es ..... Stupidity in pictures
http://sodwork.com ... A waste of time

Motto: What do you mean, caffeine isn't a vitamin?

[The Natural Philosopher]

Exactly so.

Its probably too late to learn, and WORD or OFFICE doesn't help at all.

[Al Grant]

On Sep 14, 5:54 pm, "Tim Ward" <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:
> Mine by size and weight (I don't care about battery life, I hardly ever use
> a laptop away from the mains - you get mains on trains and yachts these days
> for example).

But not in conference rooms with 50 people and
3 power sockets.

[Roland Perry]

In message <j4su6a$v7u$1...@dont-email.me>, at 13:22:18 on Thu, 15 Sep
2011, Naich <d...@mrao.cam.ac.uk> remarked:

>> I'm not a Microsoft fan, but schools need to move with the times and
>> turn out children who are computer literate and can operate software
>> they'll find in the outside world - which is almost always going to be
>> Office. There's a time and place for "software wars", but not at the
>> expense of childrens' education.
>
>If they can only use one package to do word processing then they are not
>computer literate.

That may be your impression as someone perhaps in the top 1% of
intelligence.

>The way all of the word processors mentioned here work
>is identical. If understand how one works you know how they all work.

Sadly not. There are non-trivial differences in capability and User
Interface. I spent years doing support for PC-based WP products, and
while you might be able to transfer your skills easily, the general
public can't.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <NLrA8Nqm...@bancom.co.uk>, at 13:49:42 on Thu, 15 Sep

2011, tony sayer <to...@bancom.co.uk> remarked:

>>>And why does it or should it be office?..
>>
>>It just is, being the market leader.
>
>And thats the reason its profitable for suppliers to sell;!..

We are where we are.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <20110915134...@surtees.fenrir.org.uk>, at 13:49:23
on Thu, 15 Sep 2011, Brian Morrison <b...@fenrir.org.uk> remarked:

>> I think you need to recalibrate your expectations of what the schools
>> and employers are talking about. Reasonable proficiency with the
>> market leading product is where it's at.
>
>I thought being able to perform common tasks like knowing how to write
>a letter was a requirement for businesses, that would come above being
>able to use software in most places. And yet businesses are constantly
>complaining that the school leavers they see often can't do this basic
>stuff.

I'm not suggesting reforms for the education system, just being
pragmatic about where we are today.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <j4stgo$jid$1...@news.albasani.net>, at 14:10:48 on Thu, 15 Sep
2011, The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> remarked:

>>Reasonable proficiency with the market leading product is where it's
>>at.
>No. reasonable ability to actually TYPE would be more useful...

Most children at school seem to be able to touch-type. That's more than
I can manage (I'm just a very fast four-finger typer).
--
Roland Perry

[Naich]

Thu, 15 Sep 2011 14:38:52 +0100 - Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <j4su6a$v7u$1...@dont-email.me>, at 13:22:18 on Thu, 15 Sep
> 2011, Naich <d...@mrao.cam.ac.uk> remarked:
> >> I'm not a Microsoft fan, but schools need to move with the times and
> >> turn out children who are computer literate and can operate software
> >> they'll find in the outside world - which is almost always going to be
> >> Office. There's a time and place for "software wars", but not at the
> >> expense of childrens' education.
> >
> >If they can only use one package to do word processing then they are not
> >computer literate.

> That may be your impression as someone perhaps in the top 1% of
> intelligence.

OK, maybe a rather literal analogy will help? You ask someone to read a
sentence from a book. If they can recognise the letters and spell out the
words, but have no understanding of what those words mean, would you call
them "literate"? If someone does not understand what they are doing on a
computer above recognising icons then they are not computer literate.

> >The way all of the word processors mentioned here work
> >is identical. If understand how one works you know how they all work.

> Sadly not. There are non-trivial differences in capability and User
> Interface. I spent years doing support for PC-based WP products, and
> while you might be able to transfer your skills easily, the general
> public can't.

Utter cobblers. The way Open Office Writer works is identical to Word.
There are styles with which you format the text, you can insert objects
and create lists, tables etc. The icons might look different, but one
would hope that the lessons have gone beyond what an icon is by the time
they get to this stage.

[Mark Ayliffe]

On or about 2011-09-14,
Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> illuminated us with:
> In message <7u2dnamZZ6k6Bu3T...@brightview.co.uk>, at
> 13:18:35 on Wed, 14 Sep 2011, Michael Kilpatrick
><ne...@mkilpatrick.cospam.uk> remarked:
>>What I'm keen to avoid is all the nonsense media software and doo-dah
>>that might get bundled with a machine. Don't want a Windows system
>>stuffed with proprietory additions and launch bars like the Sony Viao -
>>but rather, an uncluttered Windows installation with a decent MS
>>Office/Word bundle (including Power Point writer, not just a PP reader).
>>
>>And preferably no silly nonsense about batteries not working if they're
>>not made by and sold at a premium by the manufacturer.
>>
>>I'd appreciate any suggestions for current preferred manufacturer.
>
> After many years I'll still recommend Dell.

I would agree with this, wholeheartedly. I've owned quite a few Dell
laptops and been responsible for more profesionally. I think I've seen
one "duff" one (my dad's unfortunately) in that time.

FWIW most of my personal laptop purchasing has been in the "desktop
replacement" area. So power and large screen size more important to me
than weight or battery life.

If you're after sopmething less, particularly of the uncluttered
variety, and you're happy with second hand and short warranty, I would
suggest a look at Computer Resale (town end of Mill Road, also
findable by Google).

> Especially factory-
> refurbished ones, which are much better value as a one-off buy.

I've never yet managed to find a deal which works this way. Beware of
the reduced warranty on refurb. In my extensive experience Dell
warranties are well worth the money. If it fits wour budget.

> But good luck finding anyone bundling Office at the £400ish I assume you
> are wanting to pay.

Just dipping my toe briefly into the MS Office .VS. OpenOffice or
LibreOffice flamewar:

I have used Open/Libre Office exclusively at home for a significnat
number of years now. I haven't failed to open any MS Office document
(save Publisher, which is a Law Unto Itself) in all that time, but I
have seen considerable changes in formatting in some documents when
transferring each way.

So if having the general facilities of Office is important to you, but
compatibility with other users less so (as in my case), then
LibreOffice is the way to go. In some ways it will do less than MS
Office, in some ways more, but unless you are a serious power user
the differences will be unimportant.

If on the other hand your main use of Office is to share working
documents with several other "Office" users, as for Roland and Tim,
then usually MS Office is the answer for you. If you are eligible for
a discounted edition then good for you, otherwise as Roland suggests,
it's going to be expensive. Though buying it bundled with the laptop
is usually the least expensive way if you can't get an educational or
similar discount.

/toe now removed!

--
Mark
Real email address |
is mark at | Don't insult my intelligence just because I'm stupid. -AM
ayliffe dot org |

[Alan Braggins]

In article <genR1MvA...@perry.co.uk>, Roland Perry wrote:
>Thu, 15 Sep 2011, Alan Braggins <ar...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>Ditch MS Office at school, use OpenOffice, and the faffing around goes away.
>>You can give every child[1] a free legal copy of the software, available for
>>Windows, Linux, or Mac, and stop worrying about incompatibility problems.

>
>You seem to think each child has a PC.

Did you not read the whole post?

> It's more likely there are a few
>rooms full of PCs which they use in turn.

I very much doubt it. If the children are sharing a PC, then why specify
that it's the third child who was asking for a real copy of Office?
If two older siblings managed without but the third one can't, that
suggests the school has taken a step backwards.

And if Tim really has "a few rooms full of PCs" available for use by the
children, why not give them one each?

(At school, of course they take turns on shared machines instead of having
one each. That's both obvious and irrelevent.)

[The Natural Philosopher]

Whats wrong with the Internet?

[Roland Perry]

In message <87pqj28...@no-fixed-abode.cable.virginmedia.net>, at
12:04:10 on Thu, 15 Sep 2011, Paul Rudin <paul....@rudin.co.uk>
remarked:
>>> >Roland may have special requirements but everything I've seen my
>>> >children do at school in Word is something simple enough that one of
>>> >the free suites will suffice.
>>
>>> I don't have special requirements, unless "being able to read many of
>>> the documents circulating amongst my colleagues" is regarded as special.
>>
>> As long as you all use the same version of Word. The last time I received
>> an MS Word document from someone, it wouldn't render properly on MS Office
>> at work, but was fine on OpenOffice at home.
>
>These days google docs does a reasonable job of rendering most word
>files.

It doesn't do the "track changes bubbles" that I need (just tried it).
And even if it did, my task is to add more changes and send the document
back (preserving the bubbles, because that's what everyone else in the
work group is using).
--
Roland Perry

[Tim Ward]

"Jon Green" <jo...@deadspam.com> wrote in message
news:6ZWdnavkCYoY3OzT...@brightview.co.uk...
> On 14/09/2011 18:06, Tim Ward wrote:
>> I'd rather the schools spent their time and my money on teaching children
>> than faffing around trying to sort out incompatibility problems with free
>> software. Schools should be using stuff that Just Works.
>
> Like Windows ME, and Vista? *snork*

The clever trick - with software from *any* supplier - is not to be bleeding
edge, and only to use stuff after it has been shown to be useful. I have
chosen to use neither ME nor Vista.

--
Tim Ward - posting as an individual unless otherwise clear
Brett Ward Limited - www.brettward.co.uk
Cambridge Accommodation Notice Board - www.brettward.co.uk/canb

[Tim Ward]

"Naich" <d...@mrao.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:j4se28$tuk$1...@dont-email.me...

>
> Use Open/Libre Office and all compatability problems vanish

Doesn't matter how many times you say that, your claim continues to remain
inconsistent with people's experience.

[Roland Perry]

In message <j4t0i6$ffq$1...@dont-email.me>, at 14:02:46 on Thu, 15 Sep
2011, Naich <d...@mrao.cam.ac.uk> remarked:

>> >If they can only use one package to do word processing then they are not
>> >computer literate.
>
>> That may be your impression as someone perhaps in the top 1% of
>> intelligence.
>
>OK, maybe a rather literal analogy will help? You ask someone to read a
>sentence from a book. If they can recognise the letters and spell out the
>words, but have no understanding of what those words mean, would you call
>them "literate"? If someone does not understand what they are doing on a
>computer above recognising icons then they are not computer literate.

I haven't got time to change the GCSE Computing syllabus right now.

>> >The way all of the word processors mentioned here work
>> >is identical. If understand how one works you know how they all work.
>
>> Sadly not. There are non-trivial differences in capability and User
>> Interface. I spent years doing support for PC-based WP products, and
>> while you might be able to transfer your skills easily, the general
>> public can't.
>
>Utter cobblers. The way Open Office Writer works is identical to Word.

Depends what you mean by "works". It edits things I suppose. Not to the
same extent though.

>There are styles with which you format the text, you can insert objects
>and create lists, tables etc. The icons might look different, but one
>would hope that the lessons have gone beyond what an icon is by the time
>they get to this stage.

Same answer as before, you seem to be wanting too much from these
students.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <slrnj742j...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 15:23:33 on

Thu, 15 Sep 2011, Alan Braggins <ar...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:
>>>Ditch MS Office at school, use OpenOffice, and the faffing around goes away.
>>>You can give every child[1] a free legal copy of the software, available for
>>>Windows, Linux, or Mac, and stop worrying about incompatibility problems.
>>
>>You seem to think each child has a PC.
>
>Did you not read the whole post?

I'm putting together the "every child with a PC" being given OpenOffice
rather than MS Office to use at school.

>> It's more likely there are a few
>>rooms full of PCs which they use in turn.
>
>I very much doubt it.

I meant that's what happens at school.

>If the children are sharing a PC, then why specify
>that it's the third child who was asking for a real copy of Office?
>If two older siblings managed without but the third one can't, that
>suggests the school has taken a step backwards.

Children are different.

>And if Tim really has "a few rooms full of PCs" available for use by the
>children, why not give them one each?
>
>(At school, of course they take turns on shared machines instead of having
>one each. That's both obvious and irrelevent.)

So why confuse the issue by starting off "Ditch MS Office at School", if
all the rest is only about being at home?
--
Roland Perry

[Tim Ward]

"bob" <rcp...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:c4e7031e-3963-4538...@h6g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

>
> In that case the school should be running XP, Office 2000 and IE6, as
> that's what the pupils are likely to find when they enter the world of
> work.

There's still a lot of XP around, because it still does the job; very much
IE6 than there used to be, because it's been made unusable by more and more
web site authors ... but what about Office 2k? Nothing to do, I wonder, with
the fact that that was the last version that it was trivially easy to make
illegal copies of?

[Tim Ward]

"Alan Braggins" <ar...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> wrote in message
news:slrnj73fq...@chiark.greenend.org.uk...
>
> Or giving every child
> a real copy of Office is something to be avoided until actually asked
> for?

Doing *any* work is something to be avoided until an actual need for it has
been identified, surely :-)

[Tim Ward]

"Al Grant" <alg...@myrealbox.com> wrote in message
news:8f612e1e-79de-4350...@h6g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...

I have not yet attended an event where I was required or expected to bring
and use a laptop and not offered a power supply.

[Roland Perry]

In message <mmc9k8-...@news.virginmedia.com>, at 14:55:02 on Thu, 15
Sep 2011, Mark Ayliffe <mark.see.sig.f...@ayliffe.invalid>
remarked:

>> Especially factory-
>> refurbished ones, which are much better value as a one-off buy.
>
>I've never yet managed to find a deal which works this way.

Try these people: http://www.europc.co.uk/laptop/dell.html

(who I've bought from).
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <o_lcq.130819$Hq.7...@en-nntp-04.am2.easynews.com>, at
13:14:07 on Thu, 15 Sep 2011, Jon Green <jo...@deadspam.com> remarked:
>On 14/09/2011 18:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>> There are several "new" features which crop up quite frequently though,
>> for example change-tracking balloons in Word and animated slides in
>> Powerpoint.
>
>I doubt that "change-tracking balloons" will be a mission-critical
>feature for anyone (it's just a pretty wrap around revision tracking
>that's been around for ages),

It's absolutely vital for the group-working I was doing last year. You
simply have to be able to receive and send documents in the style
everyone else is. They get quite complicated too - on average maybe five
pages of text with more changes than original, typically changing a few
words at a time, and very important to know at a glance who changed
what.

Yes, you might be able to do it half as well with other tools, but as
everyone else is using the latest Word, it's just not possible.

>and as for the other ... think of it as an incentive to move away from
>the horrid crutch that is PowerPoint, one of the greatest wastes of
>time and money in office life.

Unfortunately when a prestigious speaker turns up at your conference you
can't use that as an excuse why his carefully crafted presentation is
useless.
--
Roland Perry

[Alan Braggins]

In article <gLmBgADG...@perry.co.uk>, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>(At school, of course they take turns on shared machines instead of having
>>one each. That's both obvious and irrelevent.)
>
>So why confuse the issue by starting off "Ditch MS Office at School", if
>all the rest is only about being at home?

Once more, with subtitles for the hard of thinking:

The subthread is about having home software compatible with the school
software. If you use OpenOffice at school, you can give them all a matching
free copy of OpenOffice to use at home. If you use MS Office at school,
you can't (legally) give them all a matching free copy to use at home.

If that's really beyond you, perhaps you could at least refrain from
making stupid comments about how things seem to you?

[Matthew Woodcraft]

Roland Perry <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> It's not obvious that it either does or doesn't (eg would the syllabus
> mention Office as such, or a requirement for compatibility with a
> particular version of Office).

I can tell you that neither the KS3 nor the GCSE syllabuses require
Microsoft Office in particular (either in theory or in practice).

-M-

[Brian Morrison]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 17:49:37 +0100
"Tim Ward" <t...@brettward.co.uk> wrote:

> "Naich" <d...@mrao.cam.ac.uk> wrote in message
> news:j4se28$tuk$1...@dont-email.me...
> >
> > Use Open/Libre Office and all compatability problems vanish
>
> Doesn't matter how many times you say that, your claim continues to
> remain inconsistent with people's experience.
>

Which people?

--

Brian Morrison

[Tim Ward]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message
news:xbzF09ET...@perry.co.uk...

>
> Unfortunately when a prestigious speaker turns up at your conference you
> can't use that as an excuse why his carefully crafted presentation is
> useless.

Last one I organised (I'm not in the habit of doing such things!) was Roger
Needham. Who needed no props at all of course[#], just walked and talked.

[#] Apart from the red tie.

[Tim Ward]

"Brian Morrison" <b...@fenrir.org.uk> wrote in message
news:20110915184...@surtees.fenrir.org.uk...

As mentioned on this thread, starting with my kids.

[Douglas de Lacey]

On 15/09/11 09:58, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <j4se94$tuk$2...@dont-email.me>, at 08:50:44 on Thu, 15 Sep
> 2011, Naich <d...@mrao.cam.ac.uk> remarked:

>>> I don't have special requirements, unless "being able to read many of
>>> the documents circulating amongst my colleagues" is regarded as special.
>>
>> As long as you all use the same version of Word. The last time I received
>> an MS Word document from someone, it wouldn't render properly on MS
>> Office
>> at work, but was fine on OpenOffice at home.
>

> Were you using the same or later version of Word than the author?
>
> The documents I mention as getting are normally written on quite recent
> versions of Word or Powerpoint (because they use recent features). I've
> never had a document refuse to open when using a suitably up to date
> version of Word myself.

And if the recipient doesn't have a `suitably up to date version'? Why
should my Parish Council (eg) fork out for a new licence each time a new
version comes out?

> But I agree you can get into trouble trying to open a very recent, or
> .docx/.xlsx, file on an old version of Word. But wouldn't you kinda
> expect that?

No I wouldn't. Why can't MS be MS-compatible? OpenOffice works just fine
on them. Oh, and it does the bubble track changes thing, though IIRC you
don't get to see the invasive bubbles till you open the document in Word
again; though I can't remember how OO displays the changes.

Douglas de Lacey

[Brian Watson]

"The Natural Philosopher" <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:j4t31d$2ku$1...@news.albasani.net...

What's wrong with carrying a 3m extension lead with you just in case?

--
Brian
"Fight like the Devil, die like a gentleman."
www.imagebus.co.uk/shop

[Brian Watson]

"Michael Kilpatrick" <ne...@mkilpatrick.cospam.uk> wrote in message
news:7u2dnamZZ6k6Bu3T...@brightview.co.uk...
> Hello all,
>
> has anyone got any particular recommendations for brands of laptop these
> days? We need to replace Alena's ageing and tediously slow Sony Viao.

>
> What I'm keen to avoid is all the nonsense media software and doo-dah that
> might get bundled with a machine. Don't want a Windows system stuffed with
> proprietory additions and launch bars like the Sony Viao - but rather, an
> uncluttered Windows installation with a decent MS Office/Word bundle
> (including Power Point writer, not just a PP reader).
>
> And preferably no silly nonsense about batteries not working if they're
> not made by and sold at a premium by the manufacturer.
>
> I'd appreciate any suggestions for current preferred manufacturer.

Being a complete ignoramus in the computing arts even though I've been using
one since 1985, I bought a Compaq with Windows 7 from Staples about a year
ago - approx £400 on special offer, I think - and put on the progs I use
from my desktop PC incl (Small Business) Office 2003.

Even I figured out how to stop Win7 doing all the stuff I don't want it to
do and it FLIES. Best computer I have had in terms of ease and speed.

[The Natural Philosopher]

By the sound of it, it is before he opens his mouth.

[Duncan Wood]

On Thu, 15 Sep 2011 18:42:38 +0100, Brian Morrison <b...@fenrir.org.uk>
wrote:

Mine :-(

[Roland Perry]

In message <fEl*m+...@news.chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 19:04:32 on Thu,
15 Sep 2011, Douglas de Lacey <de...@cam.ac.uk> remarked:

>>>> I don't have special requirements, unless "being able to read many of
>>>> the documents circulating amongst my colleagues" is regarded as special.
>>>
>>> As long as you all use the same version of Word. The last time I received
>>> an MS Word document from someone, it wouldn't render properly on MS
>>> Office
>>> at work, but was fine on OpenOffice at home.
>>
>> Were you using the same or later version of Word than the author?
>>
>> The documents I mention as getting are normally written on quite recent
>> versions of Word or Powerpoint (because they use recent features). I've
>> never had a document refuse to open when using a suitably up to date
>> version of Word myself.
>
>And if the recipient doesn't have a `suitably up to date version'? Why
>should my Parish Council (eg) fork out for a new licence each time a
>new version comes out?

It's an arms race, and to some extent you can try to insist that people
only send you "old" versions (for example Word 2003 .doc files). But
eventually Microsoft's persistence catches up with you and it's a case
of "do I need their document more than they need me to read it".

>> But I agree you can get into trouble trying to open a very recent, or
>> .docx/.xlsx, file on an old version of Word. But wouldn't you kinda
>> expect that?
>
>No I wouldn't. Why can't MS be MS-compatible?

I don't think there's much software which expects documents from future
versions to render correctly on old versions.

>OpenOffice works just fine on them. Oh, and it does the bubble track
>changes thing, though IIRC you don't get to see the invasive bubbles

!?!

>till you open the document in Word again; though I can't remember how
>OO displays the changes.

I need to see the changes on PC in the same form that I see them on the
screen at the front of the conference hall. And they are using the
latest Word.

This isn't a defence of Microsoft's upgrade strategy, but one has to
live in the world as one finds it, rather than trying to hold the tide
back single handed.
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <slrnj74cv...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>, at 18:20:38 on

Thu, 15 Sep 2011, Alan Braggins <ar...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> remarked:

>The subthread is about having home software compatible with the school
>software. If you use OpenOffice at school, you can give them all a matching
>free copy of OpenOffice to use at home. If you use MS Office at school,
>you can't (legally) give them all a matching free copy to use at home.

Do you mean "if you can persuade the school to change their policy and
use OpenOffice"? Or are you suggesting most of the class use the MS
Office provided, and your kids use OpenOffice in school instead?
--
Roland Perry

[Roland Perry]

In message <9derpt...@mid.individual.net>, at 18:43:24 on Thu, 15 Sep
2011, Tim Ward <t...@brettward.co.uk> remarked:

>> Unfortunately when a prestigious speaker turns up at your conference you
>> can't use that as an excuse why his carefully crafted presentation is
>> useless.
>
>Last one I organised (I'm not in the habit of doing such things!) was Roger
>Needham. Who needed no props at all of course[#], just walked and talked.

I fail to see why that's relevant to a discussion of conferences where
most of the speakers turn up with a presentation. Not all of them
PowerPoint - some get converted to PDFs and a small minority use some
strange Apple application.
--
Roland Perry

[Tim Ward]

"Roland Perry" <rol...@perry.co.uk> wrote in message

news:a+Jfd3J5...@perry.co.uk...

>
> I don't think there's much software which expects documents from future
> versions to render correctly on old versions.

IME when MS Word says "I'm converting this file from a new format to your
old one" the result is always readable.