'SPIN CONTROL OF THE MEDIA AND THE LIBERAL LEFT'
John Lauzon
THE 'SPIN CONTROL' OF THE MEDIA AND THE LIBERAL LEFT AND THE HOMOSEXUAL
MOVEMENT AND DON'T SEE CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION
November 1998
Dear Friends:
If you were listening to the Focus on the Family radio broadcast on
October 14-16, you are aware of the incredible attack on this
ministry launched by homosexual activists and their powerful friends
in the media. Never since our inception 21 years ago have we been so
viciously and unfairly criticized, the attacks focused not only on
our integrity but also on the integrity of Family Research Council,
the Christian Coalition, and Concerned Women for America. Soon, the
mainstream press began echoing these baseless charges, and by the
week's end, the story was being carried throughout the English
speaking world. I mentioned during my response on one of the
broadcasts that I might share this situation with our friends in my
next monthly letter. I am doing just that today.
Let me explain why it is important to understand what happened to us
in mid-October. For the past several years, the radical homosexual
movement has targeted those of us who believe in the principles of
biblical morality, the value of traditional marriage and the
institution of the family. This is why we were attacked last month
simply because what we believe is an impediment to their political
goals. Focus has never advocated violence or disrespect of
homosexuals in any context (see policy statement). This attack on us
portends an era of oppression and intolerance of all things Christian.
If that seems overstated, I invite you to read the transcript that
follows. It carries meaning not only for the several Christian
ministries vilified, including our own, but perhaps also for your own
family.
For the most part, the following words were spoken on the air during
the first of the three programs. In a few instances, minor editing
was done to shorten the text or to clarify the imprecision of the
spoken language.
I hope you will read these comments and then let me know your own
views. (MT stands for Mike Trout; JCD for myself.) * * *
MT: We're going to deal with something very unfortunate that
happened on Monday's edition of the NBC "Today" show. Many of you
have been calling us about an interview that took place on that
program. Doctor, explain exactly what's going on.
JCD: Well, it concerns the discussion of that horrible murder of a
homosexual college student in Laramie, Wyoming named Matthew Shepard,
who was tied to a post last week, allegedly by two young men, and
then he was beaten unmercifully while begging for his life.1 It was a
terrible thing. Shepard died from his massive wounds Monday morning,
2 and the senseless brutality of that attack has shocked the nation.
We extend our deepest sympathies to the Shepard family on this very
tragic loss.
MT: That sad, sad event was the subject of the NBC news interview a
couple of days ago between one of the hosts of the "Today" show,
Katie Couric, and the Governor of Wyoming, Jim Geringer. That's what
we've been hearing from our listeners about.
JCD: That's right. During that interview, Couric addressed a
question to the Governor, which we now have on tape. That's what we
want to talk about today. This is what she asked of Gov. Geringer:
Couric's Recorded Words: "And finally, Governor, some gay rights
activists have said that some conservative political organizations,
like the Christian Coalition, the Family Research Council [FRC], and
'Focus on Family' are contributing to this anti-homosexual atmosphere
by having an ad campaign saying, 'If you are a homosexual, you can
change your orientation.' That prompts people to say, 'If I meet
someone who's homosexual, I'm going to take action and try to
convince them and try to harm them.' Do you believe that such groups
are contributing to this climate?"3
* * * *
Note: The next morning, the "Today" show returned to this subject and
addressed it in greater length. Couric asked this question of one of
her guests, Elizabeth Birch of the Human Rights Campaign: "Do you
believe this campaign this ad campaign launched by some
conservative groups really contributed somehow to Matthew Shepard's
death?"
Birch's reply: "I do, Katie. These kinds of violent acts and I've
got to tell you it will be a long time before anybody in the gay
community or anyone in this country forgets the image of this very
gentle young man strapped to a fence, burned and beaten and battered.
And he was much like almost like a trophy animal, strung up there
for 18 hours. And it's caused a great deal of sadness and grieving
and mourning in the gay community. And these kinds of crimes never
happen in a vacuum. They happen because people's minds have been
twisted with cruel stereotypes about gay and lesbian people. And this
ad campaign has been pumped out all summer presenting gay and lesbian
people as defective, as [being] less than [others], as not fully
human. And young Matthew Shepard made one mistake, and that's that he
happened to fall into the path of someone that had been fed this
rhetoric and [it] came at him full of rage and hate."4
Three days later, the print media adopted the campaign. Deborah
Mathis, of the Tribune Media Services, wrote a column that was
carried in newspapers throughout the nation. The headline in one of
them read: "Anti-Homosexual Crowd Aided In Murder Of Young Gay Man."5
After stating that the air was thick with guilt, Mathis went on to
liken conservative Christians to Nazi Germany and their gassing of
millions of Jews. All of this, mind you, was aimed at four Christian
family ministries having nothing whatsoever to do with the murder of
Matthew Shepard.
Let me share with you our written policy statement on violence
against homosexuals, which has been in effect for more than five
years. It reads:
In light of the increasingly volatile nature of the public debate on
homosexuality, Focus on the Family calls upon all Christians, and
indeed, all citizens to recognize that moral opposition is not a
license to engage in any form of slander, harassment or violence
against those with whom we disagree. Morally and legally speaking, a
crime against a homosexual is no less a crime against humanity, and
deserves to be punished to the full extent of the law.
>From the perspective of the biblical witness, which is of fundamental
importance for Focus on the Family, homosexuality is just one form in
which the brokenness of humanity reveals itself, along with greed,
hatred, fear, dishonesty and intemperance, to name a few. What people
with homosexual desires need above all else is the truth, compassion
and acceptance. Focus on the Family stands in solidarity with all
people against any form of evil, including prejudice, bigotry and
violence.
Given this emphatic position, there is no credible way to associate
this ministry with hatred toward homosexuals or any one else. Indeed,
there is no evidence that the two young men who are charged with this
crime have been influenced in any way by the organizations blamed.
Russell Henderson and Aaron McKinney are vicious thugs with prior
convictions. McKinney is a high school dropout awaiting sentencing
for burglarizing a Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant.6 He reportedly
has "a short temper and a willingness to brawl."7 After allegedly
killing Shepard, he proceeded to pick a fight with two Hispanics and
reportedly jumped from a car and assaulted one of the kids who were
simply walking down the street.8 The boys, 19 and 21, are dangerous
young men who, if they are found guilty of first degree murder,
deserve the death penalty.
But what in the name of decency does this tragic episode have to do
with us? Is anyone suggesting that the assailants have listened to
Focus on the Family? Are you kidding? Have they mentioned our
ministry or the names of our sister organizations? Is there evidence
that the ad referenced repeatedly by Katie Couric was read by the
killers? Of course not. In fact, the police say robbery was the
motive. 9
So tell me, Deborah Mathis, how can you equate the ministries you
libeled with the murderous regime of Adolf Hitler and his Nazi
henchmen?
Despite the lack of answers, the charges against us continue to
escalate. Jonathan Alter issued this attack in the October 26th issue
of Newsweek. Alter wrote: "Conservatives are in a pickle. They like
to say that ideas have consequences. Well, the consequences of
condemnation can turn out to be death.... But just as the white
racists created a climate for lynching blacks, just as hate radio
created a climate for militias, so the constant degrading of
homosexuals is exacting a toll in blood.... Discerning clergymen and
moralists can hate the sin and love the sinner; but by the time the
homophobic message reaches the angry guys sitting in the bar, that
distinction has been lost."10
NBC and the other participants in this attack owe us a retraction and
an apology. Instead, we are told that NBC executives are telling
callers that Katie Couric has talked to me personally and that we've
"worked out our differences." That is as false as NBC's other
statements about us. Until they come clean with the public, we are
asking our listeners and readers to continue to call or email NBC
(212-664-4249, To...@NBC.com), the Tribune Media Services, the
distributors of Mathis's column (1-800-245-6536, ddwilliams@tribune.
com, wmah...@tribune.com), and Newsweek (1-800-631-1040,
edi...@newsweek.com). For a list of other numbers, see our web site
at www.family.org.
BACK TO THE RADIO TEXT . . .
JCD: Tell me Mike, what other constituency or organization, other
than conservative Christians, could be implicated in a premeditated
murder without the accusers having to account for their charges? Can
you imagine a public figure like Couric blaming this bludgeoning of a
college student on Jews, or African-Americans, or American Indians,
or Chinese Americans, or the Chamber of Commerce, or veterans, or any
other classification of human beings? Never! There would be an outcry
in every newspaper in the country if that happened, and for good
reason. Nowhere else in this culture could such unsubstantiated
accusations be made with impunity, except against those who are
dedicated followers of Jesus Christ. I have to tell you that I am
deeply offended by what NBC News and other media outlets have said ...
because there were a number of them that did the same thing the last
couple of days.
MT: And all of us share that deep felt reaction. I know Gary Bauer
and Don Hodel have expressed similar outrage. Explain Couric's
mentioning of the ad placed by the other organizations. (Ironically,
Focus didn't even participate in the the ad!)
JCD: She was referring there to a media campaign that took place last
summer. It made the point that it is possible for some homosexuals to
come out of the gay lifestyle and into healthy heterosexual
relationships, including marriage in some cases. One of the people
featured in the ad was John Paulk, who is a member of our staff. A
picture of him and his wife Anne appeared on the cover of Newsweek on
August 17, 1998.11 By the way, John was just torn to shreds by the
media hounds for going public with his story, as though he didn't
have a right to tell his own experience. But they didn't want it
revealed.
MT: Yesterday, in fact, the Paulks received a death threat here at
Focus. So, you talk about hate we're seeing graphic evidence of it
here.
JCD: Homosexual activists then set about discrediting anyone
connected with that message of hope, because it's very threatening to
the homosexual community. They want nothing said that would encourage
a person to leave the homosexual lifestyle with the help of Jesus
Christ. That led to their claim, aided by Couric, that some people
reading that original ad were motivated by it to harm and kill
homosexuals, including that unfortunate student in Wyoming.
The ad itself is very loving and kind, and there is nothing in it
that even hints at coercion, ridicule, or anything that resembles
violence. It was written with great care and compassion. But the
"Today" show and the other media outlets that are making this case
apparently want people to believe that we are responsible for this
crime.
MT: What do you think as you listen to all of this and look at it, is
behind this campaign?
JCD: Well, I think it's very clearly an effort to discredit and
paralyze those who disagree with the homosexual political agenda,
Mike. The issue here is not hate-mongering from Christian
organizations because that hasn't happened. It certainly hasn't
happened here at Focus. Not in 21 years not once have we ever
made a statement that was derogatory or disrespectful toward any
person, including those with whom we disagree. Our regular listeners
know this is true. Of course, we speak out on the issues on which we
differ with homosexuals and others, and we have every right to do
that, just as they do in a free society. But we've never personalized
those debates, nor have we ridiculed or belittled anyone, and we
never will.
MT: That would be contrary to who we are at the very heart of this
ministry.
JCD: It would contradict Scripture and our love for the Lord, and
what we're here to do. Now, you'll notice that people such as Couric
never quote us or document their charges against us. Never do they
say, "On such-and-such a date, Dobson said this or that." Or, "Gary
Bauer wrote something hateful in a letter dated June of 1997," or
what have you. The reason they don't is because no such statements
have ever been made. They don't exist. In the absence of that kind of
evidence, however, they manufacture charges out of thin air. This
kind of rhetoric appears nearly almost every day in various
homosexual papers and even the mainstream press.
MT: You know, so much of this reminds me of what we have been hearing
and dealing with in Canada. Our name is being used across that
country in the same way in connection with this. Our staff up there
is having to deal with these issues. The United States appears likely
to go down the same path that Canada has taken.
JCD: That is a very good point, Mike. My major concern with the
proposed hate crimes legislation is that it will take us in that
direction. In Canada, certain portions of Scripture can no longer be
read on radio or television. If broadcasters chose to elaborate on
Romans 1, for example, or other Scriptures that address the subject
of homosexuality, they would be charged with unethical practices
because officials would interpret the comments as hateful. Focus
couldn't even cite certain medical information related to AIDS on a
recent broadcast because, again, it might have offended the
homosexual community. That's where I believe gay and lesbian
activists in this country want to take us.
MT: You know, I find it interesting that the gay and lesbian movement
claims to decry hateful rhetoric, and yet the comments they make
about conservative Christians is downright dishonest. You brought a
dramatic example with you. I think you ought to share it with the
listeners.
JCD: Mike, this example was entitled "Dr. Dobson's Skeleton in the
Closet."12 It claimed that I'm accepting money from the casino
industry in return for concealing my awareness that the gambling
machines are rigged. That is preposterous. There is not even a
scintilla of truth in it. The story was obviously designed to
discredit or embarrass me, or to wound Focus in some way. Similar
lies are being spread almost every day.
MT: And obviously, some people read that stuff and believe every word
of it. Here's a rather typical letter that came from a man in Los
Angeles, referring back to the Shepard murder:
"The beating in Wyoming demonstrates that the lunatic fringe has
taken license from your code words and intends to wreak violence upon
the gay community. The blood of this young man, who committed no
crime, is on your hands. You should be ashamed ...
"I want to put an end to the political influence of immoral
reprobates like yourself. I will not sit idly by and watch this
country go down the path of Afghanistan, Pakistan or Nazi Germany.
Hate is hate and it is wrong. Covering it with the cloak of religion
is even worse: you not only denigrate mankind, but also God. No
matter how much you try to disguise your anti-gay message as one of
'help,' the real truth is self-evident: you and your kind are immoral
hate-mongers."13
MT: One of our radio station managers passed along this letter to me
yesterday. The writer said:
"I blame you as an accessory to the crime of murder and torture in
the death of Matthew Shepard.... You carry that contemptuous program
'Focus on the Family' as well as others fomenting hatred...You all
are a bunch of sanctimonious snobs who do not know the meaning of
tolerance, love, and compassion. Jesus did not come to condemn, but
to save. You come to condemn, fomenting hatred.... May God be more
merciful on you than you were to Matthew Shepard."14
JCD: The level of hostility to Christians is growing, and it's
becoming more pronounced every day. Whenever anyone wants to transfer
the blame for any outrageous act, Christians more and more commonly
are the ones that get tagged.
Let's go back to January 27, 1998, when Monica Lewinsky and the
presidential affair hit the national news. We now know that Clinton
was caught red-handed in the midst of that seamy, sexual scandal with
a girl half his age. It looked for several days in January like he
would soon be out of office. But then the First Lady shows up on
what program, Mike?
MT: The "Today" show.
JCD: The "Today" show! And she categorically stated that she knew her
husband better than anyone, and that she knew he didn't do what
Monica had told Linda Tripp. Of course, Clinton allegedly admitted to
Monica that he had had hundreds of women through the years, and yet
we're supposed to believe that Hillary never heard or suspected any
of them. Be serious. Women are intuitive people. I've said many times
that if I ever had an affair, my wife would know it by that afternoon
because she could read it. She could pick it up. And anyone as bright
as Hillary surely knew about Gennifer Flowers, Paula Jones and many
others who have apparently meandered through their marriage.
Nevertheless, she marched down to the "Today" show in January to
blame the rumors, not on her husband whom we now know was not telling
the truth but on right-wing conspiracies. Let me read her words,
Mike. She said:
"... I do believe that this is a battle. I mean, look at the very
people who are involved in this. They have popped up in other
settings. This is, ' (and then she corrected herself) the great story
here for anyone willing to find it and write about it and explain it
is this vast right-wing conspiracy that has been conspiring against
my husband.'..."15
Now, Mike, when Hillary talked about a right-wing conspiracy, she was
using code words for those of us who come from a conservative
Christian perspective. We have become the whipping boy for liberals
and activists.
MT: And you're not the only one that feels this way. There are so
many other examples beyond the one you just gave.
JCD: The event that jumps out in my memory, Mike, goes back to April
19, 1995, when a bomb rocked Oklahoma City and killed 168 Americans,
16 many of them children. Unbelievably, the media and some
politicians immediately blamed that blast on people of faith,
especially those who fight for the unborn child.
MT: I remember that.
JCD: Michael Lind, who was a reporter for The Washington Post, blamed
that bomb before anybody knew any of the facts on those of us who
oppose abortion. He wrote, "The story of Oklahoma City and the
militias should not make us forget that the main form of political
terrorism in the United States today is perpetrated by right-wing
opponents of abortion."17Of course, when the killers were apprehended
and tried, Lind's statement was exposed as ridiculous.
Reporter Bruce Morton said, "What do you suppose the odds are that
when we finally know who did it, they will say, `Well, I was
following God's will.'?"18
Eleanor Clift, the ultra leftist reporter for Newsweek, said this:
"[The bombers] came from a loose cabal of gun extremists, religious
extremists ... and many of them act under the umbrella of religion,
so it's going to raise religious issues."19
There was never a scrap of evidence to link the bombing with the pro-
life cause, or with a religious movement of any stripe, or even with
political conservatives. Only Christians as a people could have been
tried and convicted by the liberal press in the absence of even the
most remote evidence or even the suggestion of complicity. That is
the same climate we're living in today, where Focus on the Family is
considered responsible for what two thugs allegedly did to a young
man in Wyoming.
Someone said the other day that we are moving from a post-Christian
era to a decidedly anti-Christian environment. A quick look around
will confirm it. A new Broadway play called Corpus Christi depicts
Jesus as a homosexual who has relations with his apostles and a brief
affair with Judas.20 The Disney Corporation is reportedly working on
a movie that will show a distant female relative of Jesus working in
an abortion clinic.21 It would take the rest of the day to summarize
what is happening along this line.
MT: Someone here at FOF made a list of hateful comments in the
mainstream press that have shown up in just the past few weeks, and
they include the words I've got them here in front of me
"religious nuts,"22 "big mule on the right,"23 "Godzilla of the right,
"24 "An Ayatollah."25 That might be me, I don't know. "Crazies,"26
that was quoted by Steven and Cokie Roberts. "A fanatic,"27 and
lastly, "He's a bit like creeping weeds in a wet spring."28
And then listen to this. This showed up after your stroke back in
June. This statement by Elizabeth Birch of the Human Rights Campaign
at a fundraising dinner just blows me away: "I don't know how much I
believe in acts of God, and I don't think we've seen the meteorites
or hurricanes that were predicted, but it is true that within 24
hours of Senator Lott's anti-gay comment, the head of Focus on the
Family suffered a stroke that hit his speech center and silenced him
for 12 hours. I think if ever I was looking for a sign from God, that
would be it."29
JCD: And these are the people who claim to be opposed to hate, Mike?
Can you imagine any of us at Focus making a statement like, this
gloating over someone being stricken with a stroke and being unable
to speak? That's awful.
MT: Well, you mentioned persecution a few moments ago. We are told in
Scripture to expect persecution. We know that Jesus promised there
would be tribulation. If we stand up for what is right, the rest of
the world won't always understand. How do you respond to that
expectation in the context of today's attack?
JCD: Well, if that's the explanation for what's happening to us, Mike,
then we will obviously accept it. We'll put ourselves in the hands
of the Lord, as we always have.
But it still grieves me, not because of any personal discomfort,
because I can deal with that, but because this great experiment in
democracy is in jeopardy. It has protected the vulnerable and the
powerless, providing a haven for oppressed people who had fled from
despots. I pray that the inspiration of the founding fathers who
created this wonderful system of self-government will not fade from
memory, and that we aren't descending into a long night of tyranny.
That is my concern, and it's an emotional reaction. Even though Jesus
said we should expect tribulation, I still have concerns for my
country.
To put our discussion in context, Mike, there's just so much more at
stake with regard to these issues than mere criticism of this
ministry. What hangs in the balance is nothing less than the Gospel
and the opportunities for it to flourish in our country. It is that
message that they want to silence.
MT: Well, we should continue to support one another in every way we
can, whether that's by speaking out aggressively, or praying, or
writing a letter, or defending the rights given to us in the
Constitution.
JCD: Mike, we also need to be in prayer for our nation at this time.
God is in control, and we must not become discouraged. That would be
a great mistake. The outcome is in His hands and He still hears and
answers prayer.
Mike, I'm also asking our listeners to be in prayer for this ministry
because the pressures on us at this time are pretty difficult to
handle, quite frankly. It would also help if people would write us.
This is an interactive broadcast where we need to hear from our
listeners. I would like to know what you think, positively or
negatively. Call us, write us, send email and faxes. Let us hear your
perspective.
This has been an important discussion today, and I may even take the
words that we have expressed and include them in my next monthly
letter. We'll have to wait and see, Mike...
* * * *
And that is what I have done. There have been several subsequent
episodes during this unpleasant period, but I won't subject you to
the details. All I can ask in conclusion is that our listeners
remember what I said there in the closing moments of the program
that it is not James Dobson and Focus on the Family who are in the
cross hairs of our critics. It is nothing less than the Judeo-
Christian ethic and its moral underpinnings of the culture. We must
work to prevent the redefinition of marriage, homosexual adoption,
gay and lesbian propaganda in the schools, and the acceptance of
homosexual and heterosexual immorality. If people of faith don't use
their influence in this struggle, there is little that Focus on the
Family, the Christian Coalition, the Family Research Council, and
Concerned Women for America can do to withstand it.
That's it for November. I'm sorry to have to share such disturbing
news here at Thanksgiving. One thing is certain: We are grateful for
your encouragement and partnership these past few weeks. Please
remember that this is the time of year when we really need your
financial support, too. Without your generosity at the end of the
year, we can't make it during the seven months when we typically run
a deficit. Let me express my heartfelt thanks in advance.
God's blessings to you and yours during the holiday season.
James C. Dobson, Ph.D President
P.S. I will conclude with a remarkable quote from the last Sunday
sermon given by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., four days before his
tragic assassination. Dr. King said:
On some positions, cowardice asks the question, is it expedient? And
then expedience comes along and asks the question is it politic?
Vanity asks the question is it popular? Conscience asks the
question is it right? And there comes a time when one must take a
position that is neither safe, not polite, not popular but one must
take it because it's right.30
Endnotes:
1.Jim Hughes, "Beating Victim Begged for Life: Three Suspects Appear
in Court in Brutal Attack," Denver Post, October 10, 1998, p. A1. 2.
"Gay Student Dies in Beating," Associated Press, October 12, 1998. 3.
Interview of Wyoming Governor Jim Geringer by Katie Couric, "The
Today Show," October 12, 1998. 4.Interview with Janet Folger of the
Center for Reclaiming America and Elizabeth Birch of the Human Rights
Campaign Fund by Katie Couric, October 13, 1998. 5.Deborah Mathis,
"Anti-Homosexual Crowd Aided in Murder of Young Gay Man," Tribune
Media Services, October 15, 1998. 6.James Brooke, "Men Held in
Beating Lived on Fringes," The New York Times, October 16, 1998, p.
A16. 7.Ibid. 8.Ibid. 9.Ibid. 10.Jonathan Alter, "Trickle-Down Hate,"
Newsweek, October 26, 1998. 11.John Leland and Mark Miller, "Can Gays
'Convert'?" Newsweek, August 17, 1998, pp. 47-50. 12.Email from Fred
Bradford to GayForum, July 22, 1998. 13.Letter from Michael J.
Petrella to Dr. James Dobson, October 12, 1998. 14.Email from Jeff
Curtis to BBN Radio, October 12, 1998. 15.Interview of Hillary Rodham
Clinton by Matt Lauer, "The Today Show," January 27, 1998. 16.Hugh
Dellios, "Man Sought in Bombing Apprehended," Chicago Tribune, May 13,
1995, p. 1. 17.Michael Lind, "Understanding Oklahoma: Scofflaw
Conservatism: Beyond the Hyperbole, Ideas Have Consequences," Th
--
\ [P] / o<<<<<>>>>> "PRAY THE HOLY ROSARY" <<<<<>>>>>o \ [F] /
-- [[[R]]] -- I extend to you who is reading this .sig the -- [[[A]]] --
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/ [Y] \ o<<<<<>>>>>"Our Lady of Medjugorje"<<<<<>>>>>o / [T] \
John Lauzon
November 1998
Dear Friends:
* * * *
MT: The "Today" show.
MT: I remember that.
* * * *
Endnotes:
+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+
If you would like to receive the contemporary messages of Our Lady,
please drop me a line and I will put you on her mailing list...
God bless you
John...:)
Pierre Savoie
The Nazis perpetrated the holocaust, and the Christians the Inquisition.
You can't hide behind a meaningless policy statement about non-violence.
The sheep that follow you only know that you keep telling them how wrong and
unnatural homosexuality is, and only because you oppose them and center
dialog on them and consider them immoral and spiritually warped, that many
of your flock will build hatred towards them. If you didn't condem
homosexuals with your words, the sick violent followers of yours would not
seek them out and harm them.
It is that you create the atmosphere for violence and intolerance, and it is
deliberate.
Very much like the child who silently teases their sibbling, knowing that
the parents will blame the sibbling because they are the ones that make the
noise. You are guilty as charged.
But Hitler thought he was doing good too!
So you cannot act as though you are not responsible. You create the
anamosity to begin with that end in violence. Just like the Inquisition, and
the crusades, prohibition, sufferage, the list goes on, and on, and on.
And all you have to do is confess your sins and all is forgiven so you can
commit more sins, never really spiritually taking responsibility for your
sins, and always making Jesus responsible.
Bill
Also you can add legal abortion to your list of hate mongering from so
called Christians.
Ryan
of wish fulfillment anyway, so why bother to get into debates?
Christians are always right anyhow, aren't they?
On Fri, 13 Nov 1998 04:15:28 -0700, Bill <b1a...@telusplanet.net>
wrote:
>you go man!!!
>
>Also you can add legal abortion to your list of hate mongering from so
>called Christians.
Don't forget to remove the '_nospam_' from my
email address if you want to reply! :)
Darin
name of religion than in both World Wars combined. To this day people are
still killing each other for their God's sake, but lets go to Church and
wash it all away. It is SICKENING!
Ryan wrote in message <364c8f42...@news.cal.shaw.wave.ca>...
Pierre Savoie
ambivalence and the rigor is transmorphed to mortus without any
justification or association of necessity and regal contemplation of
hyperbiophitetrousis.
These days agitated posturing is equated to theorevolutionist crapthortoon.
Splendous, retardation, sex and pig shit abound! How does a moderate
extremist shift in opposition to the inflexible synernoctitudal invention?
Never mind proactive infusion of leftist handheld trout carping tweedle dee
and tweedle dumb anthology.
With pappal indignity snot nosed little rodents gnaw their way into the
hearts of inocent souls never taking into to account the never ending
bitching and yadda, yadda, blah, blah, blah, preaching smarmy gutter
clutching foolish wannabee dildo munching lesbo loving anal bleeding fools
that follow asstosilistic buffoonery!!!
So now that we all agree...
Ryan <seven_...@shaw.wave.ca> wrote in message
news:364c8f42...@news.cal.shaw.wave.ca...
tomax
<pierrethef...@home.com> wrote:
>When talking about holy cow then the discombobulated is accelerated with
>ambivalence and the rigor is transmorphed to mortus without any
>justification or association of necessity and regal contemplation of
>hyperbiophitetrousis.
Wowza!!! Can I have some of dem drugs too eh?
John Lauzon
: Woohoo! Three times in a week! Keep 'em coming Johnnie!
: ANYWAY... Where do you find these articles?
: In article <F275Ix.p...@torfree.net>, bk...@torfree.net (John Lauzon)
: wrote:
: >THIS IS A MUST READ ESPECIALLY FOR ALL THOSE WHO ARE NOT INFORMED ABOUT
: >THE 'SPIN CONTROL' OF THE MEDIA AND THE LIBERAL LEFT AND THE HOMOSEXUAL
: >MOVEMENT AND DON'T SEE CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION
In the bottom of waste baskets where the Liberal left news reporters
through them...:)
John Lauzon
: Actually yes we can compare Christian zealots with Nazis.
The above proves the case for this article:
Attacks on
"Focus on the Family"
& morals
THIS IS A MUST READ ESPECIALLY FOR ALL THOSE WHO ARE NOT INFORMED ABOUT
THE SPIN CONTROL OF THE MEDIA AND THE LIBERAL LEFT AND THE HOMOSEXUAL
MOVEMENT AND DON'T SEE CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION.
November 1998
Dear Friends:
* * * *
MT: The "Today" show.
MT: I remember that.
* * * *
Endnotes:
+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+
If you would like to receive the contemporary messages of Our Lady,
please drop me a line and I will put you on her mailing list...
God bless you
John...:)
Mark Doldon
D. Olynyk wrote:
>
> "Pierre Savoie" <pierrethef...@home.com> wrote:
> >So now that we all agree...
>
> Yes. You have the highest total syllables to paragraph ratio this side of
> Kentucky.
Pierre Savoie
Some people just don't turn the other cheek, they hit back. Not all fagots
are wimps.
Just the efeminate ones. They are only attacking the people who are seeking
them out, singling them out and attacking them, their lifestyle and beliefs.
Bet you any money that if Christians lay off fagots, then fagots will lay
off Christians.
The Homosexual, Jesus Christ would not be happy with all this infighting.
Yes Jesus never had a woman, but was always in the company of men, which he
admitted many times that he loved them. So if Jesus was a fagot, just what
is your problem?
John Lauzon <bk...@torfree.net> wrote in message
news:F2Eqnz.3J...@torfree.net...
MTC
Christianity by various posters I only have one thing to say: God help
us! Our educational system is letting us down .... badly!!!! MTC
Ryan
"Oh God.....Here come the christians..."
On Sat, 14 Nov 1998 10:33:34 GMT, bk...@torfree.net (John Lauzon)
wrote:
Don't forget to remove the '_nospam_' from my
Pierre Savoie
MTC <mantic...@mailexcite.com> wrote in message
news:364eabe6...@news1.sympatico.ca...
>Having looked at the balanced, unbiased, intelligent critique of
>Christianity by various posters I only have one thing to say: God help
>us! Our educational system is letting us down .... badly!!!! MTC
First, Christians are not balanced and unbiased, however the leaders are
very intellegent, and are masters of social control. Second is you had two
things to say, so learn to count beyond one. And third, now that we have
provincial control over education maybe with standards, the quality of
education can return. After all the PTA approach has failed miserabley. See
the educational system that failed was the one run by the local citizens,
and their irresponsible management is why property tax is so high, and the
quality so poor. And what is ypour definition of good education? One where
the strap, cane and rod are used? Most likely!
MTC
<pierrethef...@home.com> wrote:
>
>MTC <mantic...@mailexcite.com> wrote in message
>news:364eabe6...@news1.sympatico.ca...
>>Having looked at the balanced, unbiased, intelligent critique of
>>Christianity by various posters I only have one thing to say: God help
>>us! Our educational system is letting us down .... badly!!!! MTC
>
>First, Christians are not balanced and unbiased, however the leaders are
>very intellegent, and are masters of social control. Second is you had two
>things to say, so learn to count beyond one.
Cheap shot on your part, I said ONE thing: ... the educational system
is letting us down, God help us. You're trying to gain points by being
petty.
> And third, now that we have
>provincial control over education maybe with standards, the quality of
>education can return. After all the PTA approach has failed miserabley. See
>the educational system that failed was the one run by the local citizens,
>and their irresponsible management is why property tax is so high, and the
>quality so poor. And what is ypour definition of good education? One where
>the strap, cane and rod are used? Most likely!
Where did you get the idea that I would prefer harsh discipline? From
my one post on the subject? I'm a softie. :-) Ask my children, not a
strap or cane to be found. How would I define good education: being
in possession of a broad mind that's learned to look at every subject
from every angle so that it can be reasonably objective when it takes
a position in connection with any given subject. You and the others
have blamed Christians for everything but the Y2K bug. That's bias and
intellectual laziness.
Good education would also include proper grammar and good spelling,
wouldn't you say. Not much evidence of that in your cheering section.
Discussions and arguments can be stimulating, after all variety is the
spice of life, but mindless vulgarity and "you go, man!" type of posts
let down the side. MTC
gap...@vcn.bc.ca
"S> You can't hide behind a meaningless policy statement about non-violence.
"S> The sheep that follow you only know that you keep telling them how wrong a
"S> unnatural homosexuality is, and only because you oppose them and center
"S> dialog on them and consider them immoral and spiritually warped, that many
"S> of your flock will build hatred towards them. If you didn't condem
"S> homosexuals with your words, the sick violent followers of yours would not
"S> seek them out and harm them.
The Xtian Evangelical churches I've been a part of (Mennonite &
Presbyterian(PCA) primarily) have emphasized more that one is supposed to love
the sinner, even while being intolerant of the sin itself.
IOW: homosexual activities are wrong, but the person doing them is no worse
than any of us who have all done wrong things in our life. ("Let he who is
without sin..." is the summary point.)
"S> It is that you create the atmosphere for violence and intolerance, and it
"S> deliberate.
"S> Very much like the child who silently teases their sibbling, knowing that
"S> the parents will blame the sibbling because they are the ones that make th
"S> noise. You are guilty as charged.
Not an apt anaology at all, as these churches(barring the occasional radicals
which are in every category of human associations) deliberately promote an
approach of LOVE to the homosexual PERSON(the emphasis is on their co-humanity
with even those sitting in the pews.); The emphasis in these days(middle ages
were, admittedly, different in their approach) is that G-d loves ALL people.
Condemnation and Judgement have no place in the Xtian beliefs, if one is to
accept that Xtianity was founded by and with the "New Testament"...
Likewise, if one is to be a "follower of Christ" one should, indeed, live as
Christ lived, in regard to a non-judgemental approach even to sinners.
The only sin that Jesus really preached against, even in the most homosexual
era outside of the present, was the sanctimoniousness of the religious leaders
and those who felt that just because they were once-a-week frequenters of
services, they were somehow "better" than others who didn't.
"Go and do likewise"...
"S> So you cannot act as though you are not responsible. You create the
"S> anamosity to begin with that end in violence. Just like the Inquisition, a
"S> the crusades, prohibition, sufferage, the list goes on, and on, and on.
Your examples there ARE the acts of animosity. There is no such correllation
in the homosexual issue, as the only acts(eg. sermons) are
PRO-homosexual(person, not activity)
"S> And all you have to do is confess your sins and all is forgiven so you can
"S> commit more sins, never really spiritually taking responsibility for your
"S> sins, and always making Jesus responsible.
Bulldung! Such type of confession is not in any way considered valid,
according to the Jewish OR Xtian Bible! When G-d said that if we
confess/repent, He would forgive us, He was referring to a process that
involved utter brokenness(contriteness) and a complete turning away from the
former thing... if you continue in the same sin, one has obviously never been
forgiven.(because one has not properly/fully repented in the first place.)
Jesus told the adulteress, "Your sins are forgiven. GO AND SIN NO
MORE"(emphasis mine); the point being that the forgiveness is contingent upon a
readiness to go forth renewed.
This is a simple process, for seeking forgiveness FROM G-D; This does not
excuse one for crimes against one's fellow man, which require
justice/restitution.
Your friend,
|<+]::-{)}
MAGGIE'S Cyberpope (email: gap...@vcn.bc.ca)
(Please cc my mailbox and/or attribute "gapope@ wrote....")
FREE VITAMINS!!!!! GO HERE:
http://www.putpeel.com/free-vitamins/Vita-Pope.htm
WHERE WOULD YOU LIKE BILL GATES TO GO TODAY?
Daniel Swan
> Dear Friends:
> If you were listening to the Focus on the Family radio broadcast on
> October 14-16,
Darn it, would you believe that I forgot to tune in again?
--
............................................................................
"And if you want to Swan, one to one, kid... we don't need the pond"
-Prefab Sprout
............................................................................
www.geocities.com/pentagon/bunker/1022 swan_...@hotmail.com
Nova Scotia Bear
> You and the others have blamed Christians for everything but the Y2K bug.
Well, now that you brought it up, why are we going through a "Year 2000"
now, anyway? What's that "AD" part? "Anno Domini", Latin for "The Year
of our Lord". And who brought us to the calendar that most of North
America is using? Why Pope Gregory, of course! I wonder what faith he
followed...
There's nothing that special about the Year of the World 5760, is there?
The 22nd of Tevet, 5760 Anno Mundi will be followed by 23rd of Tevet,
5760. So, where is the Year 2000 Crisis? Well, it already happened,
almost 3758 years ago. That's why you don't remember it.
Similarly, the 10th of day, 1378 will be followed by the 11th of day,
1378. No great trauma there, but again, this isn't Pope Gregory's
calendar. The next interesting date is the 10th of esfand, 1378.
I don't really believe that I need to tell anyone what follows the 23rd
day of Ramadan, in the year 1420, but, just in case you don't have your
Islamic calendar handy, I'll give you a clue, it starts with "the 24th".
For those fans of the French Revolution, 10th Nivose CCVIII is followed
by the 11th Nivose. Vivé L'Annee!
So, no, I don't "blame" Christians for the Y2K bug, but by now, you
should see that it would be easy to place some of the responsibility in
their hands. After all, it is *their* Year 2000, not the Year 2000 of
other faiths, governments, or traditions.
Of course, if we were primarily Jewish, we would be facing the Y5800
crisis, about 40 years later, and were we true to the faith of Islam, we
would have gone through the Y1400 crisis about 20 years ago.
I will leave you with one other reminder:
Be careful what you ask for. You may just get it.
--
(Note: non-personal email sent to this address will be archived and
analysed at a fee of $1/byte, including headers. Sending commercial
material to this address constitutes acceptance of these terms. Extra
charges apply if research is required to find your billing address.)
MTC
Christians can indeed be blamed for Y2K in an indirect way! Who would
have thought it. So, I guess that means they ARE guilty in connection
with EVERYTHING. I always had my suspicions. MTC
Bill
>
>The wars in this century where caused not be religion but by fanatical
>atheists, over 20 million people alone where starved to death in the
>Ukraine by Stalin...a non-believer. Communism is the cause of more deaths
>in this century alone than all the 'religious wars' in history.
>
>Have a nice day...:)
>John...:)
I'm not a Communist, never have been but a philosophy or political system
does not cause death. The implementors of that system or dogma do cause
death. Evil resides within mankind in these situations thus the hypocrisy of
religion. At least Stalin never claimed to be following orders of God.
--
....Bill
The world is the insane asylum of the universe.
George Bernard Shaw
John Lauzon
: Yes they are always right evern though more people have been killed in the
: name of religion than in both World Wars combined. To this day people are
: still killing each other for their God's sake, but lets go to Church and
: wash it all away. It is SICKENING!
That's why my posts are deleted almost as I post them and it doesn't
matter what the topic is either, it's just the hate-mongering that people
such as you have against religion or those who believe in a God that
begins in this subtle form of discrimination against 'freedom of speech'.
It was done against the Jews and it's now being done against the
Christians.
The wars in this century where caused not be religion but by fanatical
atheists, over 20 million people alone where starved to death in the
Ukraine by Stalin...a non-believer. Communism is the cause of more deaths
in this century alone than all the 'religious wars' in history.
Have a nice day...:)
John...:)
--
Ryan
christians won't need to beat their bibles in order to feel like a
whole person. Doubt that'll happen within my lifetime, which is
unfortunate. Oh well.
The King James version of the bible is so horribly translated anyhow,
that it is likely one day all the die hard christians will realize
that everything they are worshipping and taking word for word is for
the most part, incorrect. But again, unfortunatly not in my lifetime.
Oh, and not that this post really has anything to do with the
y2k/christian message it's quoting, so you probably don't have to
remind me of that :-)
Ryan.
On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:34:53 GMT, mantic...@mailexcite.com (MTC)
wrote:
Don't forget to remove the '_nospam_' from my
Paul Goetze
>
> Well maybe one day the human race can 'evolve' to a point where
> christians won't need to beat their bibles in order to feel like a
> whole person. Doubt that'll happen within my lifetime, which is
> unfortunate. Oh well.
The only evolution I have seen so far is by people who attempt to live
by Jesus' teachings. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto
you!" "Turn the other cheek!" "Love your enemies, pray for those who
persecute you!" "Clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit those in
prison!".
I am not saying that followers of Jesus are the only ones on the right
track when it comes to moral evolution ... many, many others of
various faiths and even many of those who possess no faith at all but
who believe in living by these cherished truths are on their way up
the evolutionary ladder rather than being stuck at a base level.
Don't be too quick to give up on humanity or "christians". Rather than
being cynical or dejected ... join those who try to make things a bit
better for their fellow humans.
> The King James version of the bible is so horribly translated anyhow,
> that it is likely one day all the die hard christians will realize
> that everything they are worshipping and taking word for word is for
> the most part, incorrect. But again, unfortunatly not in my lifetime.
Not true. The scholars in those days were very conscientious in their
translation of the received text. Some words have changed their
meaning over the centuries but that has been taken care of in revised
editions of the King James as well as in other, more modern
translations.
Man's problem with the Bible is that it claims that a higher power
(God) gave us a set of rules to live by. We don't like to be reminded
of this because we break these moral laws left and right, on a daily
basis. So, do away with the religious and their superstitions, and the
way is clear to a shiny future free of prejudice and bigotry and
hatred ... and especially GUILT. Hooray!
Except as another poster pointed out, avowed, militant atheists like
Stalin were responsible for far more misery than that caused by the
"religious" even if you start adding numbers from year 1.
One more thing, as a Christian, I refuse to identify with "holy"
crusaders and inquisitors and all the others who have perverted the
teachings of Jesus, and resent being lumped in with them. The
followers of the way are generally gentle and peacable. I am saying
"generally" because I'm not beyond getting stirred up on occasion,
especially when false, unfounded accusations and twisted statistics
are being used to insult the one in whom I believe so deeply. As for
those who have acted cruelly and hatefully in his name .. they are not
His, you can be sure of that, because God is Love.
Paul
Pierre Savoie
Paul Goetze <bfor...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:3651B917...@ns.sympatico.ca...
>Ryan wrote:
>>
>> Well maybe one day the human race can 'evolve' to a point where
>> christians won't need to beat their bibles in order to feel like a
>> whole person. Doubt that'll happen within my lifetime, which is
>> unfortunate. Oh well.
>
>The only evolution I have seen so far is by people who attempt to live
>by Jesus' teachings. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto
>you!" "Turn the other cheek!" "Love your enemies, pray for those who
>persecute you!" "Clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit those in
>prison!".
>
Jesus taught Judaism. He was a Rabbi. The only people who thought to write
anything about him then were the Romans, and that was before the make
believe started to be told.
>I am not saying that followers of Jesus are the only ones on the right
>track when it comes to moral evolution ... many, many others of
>various faiths and even many of those who possess no faith at all but
>who believe in living by these cherished truths are on their way up
>the evolutionary ladder rather than being stuck at a base level.
>Don't be too quick to give up on humanity or "christians". Rather than
>being cynical or dejected ... join those who try to make things a bit
>better for their fellow humans.
>
Christianity and humanity are two very different things. I don't think they
are interchangable as you seem to state. What you have stated is what is
called the golden thread. It is what is common in most religions. Nothing
about these qualities are limited to christians and being christian in no
way denotes the person will have these qualities.
>> The King James version of the bible is so horribly translated anyhow,
>> that it is likely one day all the die hard christians will realize
>> that everything they are worshipping and taking word for word is for
>> the most part, incorrect. But again, unfortunatly not in my lifetime.
>
>Not true. The scholars in those days were very conscientious in their
>translation of the received text. Some words have changed their
>meaning over the centuries but that has been taken care of in revised
>editions of the King James as well as in other, more modern
>translations.
>
If you knew why King James translated the greek to english in the first
place, then you would see that it was to establish the divinity of kings in
the bible. Prior to king James kings were just people, after king James they
were Gods representatives on earth. It was to Christianize the fuedal
system. Make it morally right according to the bible. Another example of
christianity as social control as its real agenda.
Yes careful transcription is evident. But only after certain edits were done
several times over the centuries. Listen, archeological evidence has
produced several versions of the same bible stories fro Jesus' time. If this
was happening to the real bible, the one god relayed to Moses, how can
anyone accept that the New Bible, which was not written until long after
everyone was dead and gone, is the legitimate word? Hell, they didn't even
decide which books should be included until hundreds of years after Jesus
lived. So how can you sit there with a straight face and try and say the
bible has not changed considerabley since it was written?
>Man's problem with the Bible is that it claims that a higher power
>(God) gave us a set of rules to live by. We don't like to be reminded
>of this because we break these moral laws left and right, on a daily
>basis. So, do away with the religious and their superstitions, and the
>way is clear to a shiny future free of prejudice and bigotry and
>hatred ... and especially GUILT. Hooray!
>
That applies to the old bible and not the new ones. Oh, yup, the Mormons
found a third bible, but many christians will not accept it as the word of
god. I don't know why, they accept the new testiment, why not the newer one?
They both were written long after the fact, unlike the original which was
etched into stone as god spoke his words.
>Except as another poster pointed out, avowed, militant atheists like
>Stalin were responsible for far more misery than that caused by the
>"religious" even if you start adding numbers from year 1.
>
Well let us compare the holy with the devil. As long as te devils evil is
worse, we are fine with our evil. Our evil was done in the name of good.
Works like forgiveness. No matter how bad it is, you will be forgiven so you
can go out and do it again. Oh, forgiveness christian style. Yes, Stalin may
be responsible for more deaths, but in a much bigger world. If you go by
death as a percentage of the world population then the christians cannot be
touched.
>One more thing, as a Christian, I refuse to identify with "holy"
>crusaders and inquisitors and all the others who have perverted the
>teachings of Jesus, and resent being lumped in with them. The
>followers of the way are generally gentle and peacable. I am saying
>"generally" because I'm not beyond getting stirred up on occasion,
>especially when false, unfounded accusations and twisted statistics
>are being used to insult the one in whom I believe so deeply. As for
>those who have acted cruelly and hatefully in his name .. they are not
>His, you can be sure of that, because God is Love.
Excuse me? We are ALL god's children!
But many of us believe that it is blasphamy to pray to another before God.
See, I believe god, not some man pretending to be one. God said there shall
be no others before me. Christians have put Jesus of Nazareth, a carpenter's
son, before God almighty. Go worship your golden cow. I have seen them
hanging from christian necks, golden statues of a man on a cross. Golden
calves that can only bring god's wrath.
Perhaps it is this blasphamy and disrespect of God that has cast us into
this cess pool of Chrisitandom! After all these sick, criminal societies are
known as Christian societies.
>Paul
Bill
>
>Bill (bih...@axionet.com) wrote:
>: I'm not a Communist, never have been but a philosophy or political system
>: does not cause death. The implementors of that system or dogma do cause
>: death. Evil resides within mankind in these situations thus the hypocrisy
of
>: religion. At least Stalin never claimed to be following orders of God.
>
>The communist system was put in place to control the mass' by dictatorship
>which outlawed Christianity, thus the brutality that occured.
>Christianity today is the cause of democratic freedoms. It's those who
>oppose Christianity and freedom that start the wars, not the other way
>around. It was the Pope that orchestrated the downfall of the USSR and
>it's puppet nations via the uprising in Poland, maybe the Pope was
>following the orders of God.
>
>John
The brutality was more a result of the natural paranoia which accompanies
all dictatorships. Christians were only part of the equation.
In terms of democratic freedoms, Christianity clearly falls well short of
the mark, especially your brand of christianity.....eg abortion.
As far as the Pope orchestrating the downfall of the USSR, this is merely
wishful thinking. As a Pole he may have inspired the Polish people but the
truth is that Communism in Eastern Europe died a natural death, the Pope
notwithstanding. You're pretty good a revisionist history.
...............Bill
>--
> \ [P] / o<<<<<>>>>> "PRAY THE HOLY ROSARY" <<<<<>>>>>o \ [F] /
>-- [[[R]]] -- I extend to you who is reading this .sig the -- [[[A]]] --
> / [A] \ "SPECIAL BLESSING" of the "QUEEN OF PEACE" / [S] \
> / [Y] \ o<<<<<>>>>>"Our Lady of Medjugorje"<<<<<>>>>>o / [T] \
--
John Lauzon
: In article <F2Jsvu.Bn...@torfree.net>, bk...@torfree.net says...
: >
: >The wars in this century where caused not be religion but by fanatical
: >atheists, over 20 million people alone where starved to death in the
: >Ukraine by Stalin...a non-believer. Communism is the cause of more deaths
: >in this century alone than all the 'religious wars' in history.
: >
: >Have a nice day...:)
: >John...:)
: I'm not a Communist, never have been but a philosophy or political system
: does not cause death. The implementors of that system or dogma do cause
: death. Evil resides within mankind in these situations thus the hypocrisy of
: religion. At least Stalin never claimed to be following orders of God.
The communist system was put in place to control the mass' by dictatorship
which outlawed Christianity, thus the brutality that occured.
Christianity today is the cause of democratic freedoms. It's those who
oppose Christianity and freedom that start the wars, not the other way
around. It was the Pope that orchestrated the downfall of the USSR and
it's puppet nations via the uprising in Poland, maybe the Pope was
following the orders of God.
John
John Lauzon
THIS IS A MUST READ ESPECIALLY FOR ALL THOSE WHO ARE NOT INFORMED
ABOUT THE SPIN CONTROL OF THE MEDIA AND THE LIBERAL LEFT AND THE
HOMOSEXUAL MOVEMENT AND DON'T SEE CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION
November 1998
Dear Friends:
If you were listening to the Focus on the Family radio broadcast on
* * * *
MT: The "Today" show.
MT: I remember that.
* * * *
Endnotes:
+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+*+
Ian 'Tay' Landry
Lauzon) wrote:
Subject: Attacks on "Focus on the Family" & morals
THIS IS A MUST READ ESPECIALLY FOR ALL THOSE WHO ARE NOT INFORMED
ABOUT THE SPIN CONTROL OF THE MEDIA AND THE LIBERAL LEFT AND THE
HOMOSEXUAL MOVEMENT AND DON'T SEE CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION
November 1998
Dear Friends:
This kind of stuff would not happen if you would stop trying to force your
beliefs and values onto other people!!!!!!!
--
'Blessed Be' from:
Ian 'Tay' Landry, BSc BA MA
24 Indigo Walk, Halifax, NS Can. B3R 1G4
Ph:(902)479-2254 Pg:(902)458-8543 Fx:(479-1177)
ian...@netcom.ca http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3023/ ICQ# 5080641
Sociologist Activist Advocate Community Developer Researcher
Full-time Dad to Nicholas 11 & Christopher 8
Half-time to Ashley 6 & Dylan 4
Werner Knoll
>
> Bill (bih...@axionet.com) wrote:
> : In article <F2Jsvu.Bn...@torfree.net>, bk...@torfree.net says...
> : >
> : >The wars in this century where caused not be religion but by fanatical
> : >atheists, over 20 million people alone where starved to death in the
> : >Ukraine by Stalin...a non-believer. Communism is the cause of more deaths
> : >in this century alone than all the 'religious wars' in history.
> : >
> : >Have a nice day...:)
> : >John...:)
>
> : I'm not a Communist, never have been but a philosophy or political system
> : does not cause death. The implementors of that system or dogma do cause
> : death. Evil resides within mankind in these situations thus the hypocrisy of
> : religion. At least Stalin never claimed to be following orders of God.
>
> The communist system was put in place to control the mass' by dictatorship
> which outlawed Christianity, thus the brutality that occured.
> Christianity today is the cause of democratic freedoms. It's those who
> oppose Christianity and freedom that start the wars, not the other way
> around. It was the Pope that orchestrated the downfall of the USSR and
> it's puppet nations via the uprising in Poland, maybe the Pope was
> following the orders of God.
>
> John
to twist thing around. No I will not say that you have to be ashamed of
yourself because for this you need a good character first!!
Opposing Christianity you say? Out of which manhole cover did come today
to lecture other? It is religious GANGSTERS like you and your monk habit
pisser in Rome who were instrumental to get peoples killed because the
are not fanatical Catholic BASTARDS. I tell you what my BOY. If I had my
way. For every abortion Doctor killed, I would fill your place of
worship and send you all to see your master. Go drop death you misfit!!
Werner Knoll
"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not
find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming
feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of
innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of
Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has
been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and
the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the
earth."
Thomas Jefferson
Wes Whitlock
>way. For every abortion Doctor killed, I would fill your place of
>worship and send you all to see your master. Go drop death you misfit!!
Congratulations. While I am still morally and ethically opposed to it, you
are the most convincing reason for selective abortion I've heard in a while.
Werner Knoll
>
> Ryan wrote:
> >
> > Wow Werner...
> >
> > You sure sound like a crackpot....
> >
> > You know what would be interesting? Even more interesting than this
> > whole Christian debate - would be for you to document every event in
> > your life that contributed to the extreme loss of brain cells that you
> > clearly demonstrate to us at this moment, so we could all read it and
> > be able to understand why you're so 'outer-spaceish'.
> >
> > Some proper English courses could be in order in your future too, as I
> > think it would help you immensely.
> >
> > Ryan.
How old are you? Here I am telling it how it is and you are worried
about proper English.
Imagine. You and your brother are 11 years old and evacuated to a small
Bavarian Village were everybody is Catholic. Imagine as a welcome
gesture you and your brother is getting beat up and being told that you
not welcome there because you are heathen! Imagine you are told by the
village priest that you are not welcome in the Catholic Church because
you would make the church unclean \ desecrate!
Imagine your father comes to a visit and is wrestled to the ground in
front of you because he did not remove his cap in front of a cross fast
enough?
It is not me who invented the words: "An Eye for an Eye and a Tooth for
a Tooth"
It is not me who said in the Thirty Year Religios War in Europe "
if you do not like to be my Brother, than I will kill you"
Werner Knoll
I have noticed all my life that many people think they have religion
when they are troubled with dyspepsia.
R. G. Ingersoll
> >
> > On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:47:38 -0800, Werner Knoll <we...@istar.ca>
> > wrote:
> >
> > >I was hopping to have a nice evening till a con artist like you started
> > >to twist thing around. No I will not say that you have to be ashamed of
> > >yourself because for this you need a good character first!!
> > >
> > >Opposing Christianity you say? Out of which manhole cover did come today
> > >to lecture other? It is religious GANGSTERS like you and your monk habit
> > >pisser in Rome who were instrumental to get peoples killed because the
> > >are not fanatical Catholic BASTARDS. I tell you what my BOY. If I had my
> > >way. For every abortion Doctor killed, I would fill your place of
> > >worship and send you all to see your master. Go drop death you misfit!!
> > >
> > >Werner Knoll
> > >"I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not
> > >find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming
> > >feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of
> > >innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of
> > >Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has
> > >been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and
> > >the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the
> > >earth."
> > >Thomas Jefferson
> >
Werner Knoll
>
> > If I had my
> >way. For every abortion Doctor killed, I would fill your place of
> >worship and send you all to see your master. Go drop death you misfit!!
>
> are the most convincing reason for selective abortion I've heard in a while.
I was just told that I should improve my English. Here is my suggestion.
Reword you posting so I can understand where the little stone in your
shoe is. Don't be shy now tell me how you feel so I can reply in kind.
Who knows? I might be feeling the same way about you. :-)))
Werner Knoll
Jefferson again:
"Christianity...(has become) the most perverted system that ever shone
on man. ...Rogueries, absurdities and untruths were perpetrated upon the
teachings of Jesus by a large band of dupes and importers led by Paul,
the first great corrupter of the teaching of Jesus. "The clergy
converted the simple teachings of Jesus into an engine for enslaving
mankind and adulterated by artificial constructions into a contrivance
to filch wealth and power to themselves...these clergy, in fact,
constitute the real Anti-Christ. Jefferson's word for the Bible?
"Dunghill."
Ryan
You sure sound like a crackpot....
You know what would be interesting? Even more interesting than this
whole Christian debate - would be for you to document every event in
your life that contributed to the extreme loss of brain cells that you
clearly demonstrate to us at this moment, so we could all read it and
be able to understand why you're so 'outer-spaceish'.
Some proper English courses could be in order in your future too, as I
think it would help you immensely.
Ryan.
On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 15:47:38 -0800, Werner Knoll <we...@istar.ca>
wrote:
>I was hopping to have a nice evening till a con artist like you started
>to twist thing around. No I will not say that you have to be ashamed of
>yourself because for this you need a good character first!!
>
>Opposing Christianity you say? Out of which manhole cover did come today
>to lecture other? It is religious GANGSTERS like you and your monk habit
>pisser in Rome who were instrumental to get peoples killed because the
>are not fanatical Catholic BASTARDS. I tell you what my BOY. If I had my
>way. For every abortion Doctor killed, I would fill your place of
>worship and send you all to see your master. Go drop death you misfit!!
>
Pierre Savoie
>Bill (bih...@axionet.com) wrote:
>: In article <F2Jsvu.Bn...@torfree.net>, bk...@torfree.net says...
>: >
>: >The wars in this century where caused not be religion but by fanatical
>: >atheists, over 20 million people alone where starved to death in the
>: >Ukraine by Stalin...a non-believer. Communism is the cause of more
deaths
>: >in this century alone than all the 'religious wars' in history.
>: >
>: >Have a nice day...:)
>: >John...:)
>
>: I'm not a Communist, never have been but a philosophy or political system
>: does not cause death. The implementors of that system or dogma do cause
>: death. Evil resides within mankind in these situations thus the hypocrisy
of
>: religion. At least Stalin never claimed to be following orders of God.
>
>The communist system was put in place to control the mass' by dictatorship
>which outlawed Christianity, thus the brutality that occured.
Woah! All religion was outlawed, not just Christianity. And there is no
relation between outlawing religion and the brutality that occured. The
brutality would have taken place even if religion remained legal. Besides,
making christianity illegal certainly did not stop one christian from
observing their faith. This is proven by all the christians in Russia.
>Christianity today is the cause of democratic freedoms.
War is the cause of democratic freedoms. It had to be won from the royality
and the church, becuase those were democracies first enemies. The Church is
still not a democratic institution, so what example do they set?
It's those who
>oppose Christianity and freedom that start the wars, not the other way
>around. It was the Pope that orchestrated the downfall of the USSR and
>it's puppet nations via the uprising in Poland, maybe the Pope was
>following the orders of God.
The Pope did dick. He was frightened and acted the same as Popes have always
done. Just like the popes during Germany and WWII. It was the trade
unionists or comminists of labour that brought communism down in Poland.
Once it was down, then the Pope made his pilgramage. But only after Lech and
his boys had already done it. And it wasn't a Christian trade union.
>
>John
E. Barry Bruyea
wrote:
>Werner Knoll wrote:
>>
>> Ryan wrote:
>> >
>> > Wow Werner...
>> >
>> > You sure sound like a crackpot....
>> >
>> > You know what would be interesting? Even more interesting than this
>> > whole Christian debate - would be for you to document every event in
>> > your life that contributed to the extreme loss of brain cells that you
>> > clearly demonstrate to us at this moment, so we could all read it and
>> > be able to understand why you're so 'outer-spaceish'.
>> >
>> > Some proper English courses could be in order in your future too, as I
>> > think it would help you immensely.
>> >
>> > Ryan.
>
>How old are you? Here I am telling it how it is and you are worried
>about proper English.
>
>Imagine. You and your brother are 11 years old and evacuated to a small
>Bavarian Village were everybody is Catholic. Imagine as a welcome
>gesture you and your brother is getting beat up and being told that you
>not welcome there because you are heathen! Imagine you are told by the
>village priest that you are not welcome in the Catholic Church because
>you would make the church unclean \ desecrate!
>
>Imagine your father comes to a visit and is wrestled to the ground in
>front of you because he did not remove his cap in front of a cross fast
>enough?
>
>It is not me who invented the words: "An Eye for an Eye and a Tooth for
>a Tooth"
>
>It is not me who said in the Thirty Year Religios War in Europe "
>if you do not like to be my Brother, than I will kill you"
>
>Werner Knoll
It is unfortunate that you and your family were treated in this
manner, but remember, it beats the hell out of getting shoved into a
gas chamber.
Werner Knoll
Why is getting killed in a gas chamber more cruel than any other methods
to kill innocent people? I do believe that we ALL have to be reminded
about the holocaust so it will never happen again but I also believe
that the allies should also be exposed to the same scrutiny. This is not
happening. One of the reason? The Jewish groups insistence that their
suffering has priority above everything else.
Werner Knoll
Charley
>Why is getting killed in a gas chamber more cruel than any other methods
>to kill innocent people? I do believe that we ALL have to be reminded
>about the holocaust so it will never happen again but I also believe
>that the allies should also be exposed to the same scrutiny. This is not
>happening. One of the reason? The Jewish groups insistence that their
>suffering has priority above everything else.
>
>Werner Knoll
This is interesting... seeing how it comes from the same charming
individual who wanted to "fill your place of worship and send you all to see
your master. Go drop death you misfit!!"... sound familiar?
You are a nasty piece of work, Mr. Knoll. I find it difficult to feel
sympathy for you when you advocate death to a religious group (Catholics)
while crying religious persecution. You (and narrow-minded people like you)
personify all that is wrong with humanity.
All war is bad. In a time of war, atrocities are committed by ALL sides.
Those who commit these atrocities should be (and usually are) made
accountable. Now, that said, the allies HAVE been exposed to the "same
scrutiny". The difference was that they were not found responsible for the
systematic MURDER of over SIX MILLION innocent people for no more reason
than their ethnic background.
You are obviously anti-Catholic, and the tone of your last post suggests
that you are also anti-Semitic. Your rants and death threats in your
previous posts demonstrate a twisted personality with a penchant for
violence. At the risk of perpetuating a stereotype, I would suggest, sir,
that you would make a fine NAZI.
I almost feel sorry for you (almost!).
Charles
Werner Knoll
>
> >Why is getting killed in a gas chamber more cruel than any other methods
> >to kill innocent people? I do believe that we ALL have to be reminded
> >about the holocaust so it will never happen again but I also believe
> >that the allies should also be exposed to the same scrutiny. This is not
> >happening. One of the reason? The Jewish groups insistence that their
> >suffering has priority above everything else.
> >
> >Werner Knoll
>
> This is interesting... seeing how it comes from the same charming
> individual who wanted to "fill your place of worship and send you all to see
> your master. Go drop death you misfit!!"... sound familiar?
Sure. The allies were fighting for the army of the lord and you were
their chorus boy. What can I expect from a chorus boy who dos not wash
his hand and mouth after coming in contact with his Papa?
>
> You are a nasty piece of work, Mr. Knoll. I find it difficult to feel
> sympathy for you when you advocate death to a religious group (Catholics)
> while crying religious persecution. You (and narrow-minded people like you)
> personify all that is wrong with humanity.
Well. I am doing the work of the Lord to test your strength and believe
in him for five minutes. Amen! And this makes it legal. Remember this
people will all go to heaven. This should be a bonus. :-))))
>
> All war is bad. In a time of war, atrocities are committed by ALL sides.
> Those who commit these atrocities should be (and usually are) made
> accountable. Now, that said, the allies HAVE been exposed to the "same
> scrutiny". The difference was that they were not found responsible for the
> systematic MURDER of over SIX MILLION innocent people for no more reason
> than their ethnic background.
And all other atrocities do not count?????
>
> You are obviously anti-Catholic, and the tone of your last post suggests
> that you are also anti-Semitic. Your rants and death threats in your
> previous posts demonstrate a twisted personality with a penchant for
> violence. At the risk of perpetuating a stereotype, I would suggest, sir,
> that you would make a fine NAZI.
>
> I almost feel sorry for you (almost!).
>
> Charles
Don't feel sorry for me. For some people these words are the best excuse
to screw someone.
Werner Knoll
"Believers" tend to believe in God's vengeance for their enemies, but in
God's mercy for themselves.
Charley
>Sure. The allies were fighting for the army of the lord and you were
>their chorus boy. What can I expect from a chorus boy who dos not wash
>his hand and mouth after coming in contact with his Papa?
What?!!! Chorus boy? Washing hands? Just what the hell is that supposed
to mean, anyway? I thought that you were bigoted, narow-minded, two-faced,
racist evil nazi. I was wrong. You are simply CRAAAAZY!!
>Well. I am doing the work of the Lord to test your strength and believe
>in him for five minutes. Amen! And this makes it legal. Remember this
>people will all go to heaven. This should be a bonus. :-))))
Nope. No sense here. Still CRAAAZY.
>And all other atrocities do not count?????
Oh absolutly. ALL atrocities "count". It's just that the spectre of SIX
MILLION needless deaths casts quite a shadow over whatever else was
happening. I don't pretend to condone what ever else happened, I was just
trying to point out the silliness of your "well, they were doing stuff too!"
argument. Of course, it's pointless to kepp trying now... now that we all
know that you are CRAAAAZY.
>Don't feel sorry for me. For some people these words are the best excuse
>to screw someone.
OK, whatever. I'm not really qualified to argue with a crazy nazi. Have
a nice life, Werner. You are truly one God's greatest mistakes.
Charles
Werner Knoll
How can I be Gods greatest mistake when there is no GOD?
Werner Knoll
Christ rode on an ass, but asses ride on Christ
Heine
Werner Knoll
>
> All war is bad. In a time of war, atrocities are committed by ALL sides.
> Those who commit these atrocities should be (and usually are) made
> accountable. Now, that said, the allies HAVE been exposed to the "same
> scrutiny". The difference was that they were not found responsible for the
> systematic MURDER of over SIX MILLION innocent people for no more reason
> than their ethnic background.
>
> that you are also anti-Semitic. Your rants and death threats in your
> previous posts demonstrate a twisted personality with a penchant for
> violence. At the risk of perpetuating a stereotype, I would suggest, sir,
> that you would make a fine NAZI.
>
> I almost feel sorry for you (almost!).
>
> Charles
Adolf Schickelgruber signed with the monk habit pisser in Rome a
Concordat 1938?. Sort of an agreement were they said: you scratch my
back and I scratch your back.
Here is what Adolf said about the Jews:
Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of
the Almighty Creator by defending myself against the Jews. I am fighting
for the work of the Lord.
Hitler Mein Kampf
Doing the work of the Lord hey? Is this the same God who sees nothing
hears nothing and knows nothing? He sure was not very active when the
Nazis killed innocent people.
GOD CAN DO EVERYTHING!
Question?
Can your God build a mountain so big that he cannot move this mountain?
Werner Knoll
Bill
seven_...@shaw.wave.ca says...
>
>If there is no God, there is no heaven, and you're still not going to
>get in.
>
>What a predicament.
>
>Ryan.
Heaven could be merely the name Christians use to refer to the dimension
that life energy attains when the human body expires. Why does this
dimension (heaven if you must) have to have religious connotations? What if
there is no God but there is "heaven"? I can still get in, right?
Ryan
get in.
What a predicament.
Ryan.
>
>How can I be Gods greatest mistake when there is no GOD?
>
>Werner Knoll
>Christ rode on an ass, but asses ride on Christ
>Heine
Don't forget to remove the '_nospam_' from my
John Lauzon
: In article <F2nEKo.9Lv...@torfree.net>, bk...@torfree.net (John
: Lauzon) wrote:
: Subject: Attacks on "Focus on the Family" & morals
: THIS IS A MUST READ ESPECIALLY FOR ALL THOSE WHO ARE NOT INFORMED
: ABOUT THE SPIN CONTROL OF THE MEDIA AND THE LIBERAL LEFT AND THE
: HOMOSEXUAL MOVEMENT AND DON'T SEE CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION
: November 1998
: Dear Friends:
: This kind of stuff would not happen if you would stop trying to force your
: beliefs and values onto other people!!!!!!!
Funny...I don't recall getting to 'vote' for or against abortion???
God bless
Ian 'Tay' Landry
Gee Ryan, I hope the Quran is wrong for your sake. (Pascal's wager is a
horrible bluff. That's one down, you have six to go).
seven_...@shaw.wave.ca (Ryan) wrote:
>If there is no God, there is no heaven, and you're still not going to
>get in.
Man created god, god did not create man.
Tay
Ian 'Tay' Landry
Lauzon) wrote:
Ian 'Tay' Landry (ian...@netcom.ca) wrote:
: In article <F2nEKo.9Lv...@torfree.net>, bk...@torfree.net (John
: Lauzon) wrote:
: Subject: Attacks on "Focus on the Family" & morals
: THIS IS A MUST READ ESPECIALLY FOR ALL THOSE WHO ARE NOT INFORMED
: ABOUT THE SPIN CONTROL OF THE MEDIA AND THE LIBERAL LEFT AND THE
: HOMOSEXUAL MOVEMENT AND DON'T SEE CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION
: November 1998
: Dear Friends:
: This kind of stuff would not happen if you would stop trying to force your
: beliefs and values onto other people!!!!!!!
Funny...I don't recall getting to 'vote' for or against abortion???
of course not, you we do not live in a direct democracy but instead elect
leaders who are supposed to represent the majority.
Paul Goetze
Landry) wrote:
>In article <7365jj$5ls$2...@news.bctel.net>, no...@noyb.no (D. Olynyk) wrote:
>
>Gee Ryan, I hope the Quran is wrong for your sake. (Pascal's wager is a
>horrible bluff. That's one down, you have six to go).
>
>seven_...@shaw.wave.ca (Ryan) wrote:
>>If there is no God, there is no heaven, and you're still not going to
>>get in.
>
>
>Man created god, god did not create man.
>
>
>Tay
Just curious, Tay. You have "Blessed be" in your signature, something
that is normally used by Wiccans. Does that not involve belief in a
Godess? Or are you secular man who just happens to use that wonderful
sentiment because it is something positive? Paul
Opposite North
<we...@istar.ca> posted:
>GOD CAN DO EVERYTHING!
>Question?
>Can your God build a mountain so big that he cannot move this mountain?
Can Hitler create a holocaust so great god can not stop?
Ian 'Tay' Landry
(Opposite North) wrote:
Yup, he can and he did and WE humans stopped it!!!
--
'Blessed Be' from:
Ian 'Tay' Landry, BSc BA MA
24 Indigo Walk, Halifax, NS Can. B3R 1G4
Ph:(902)479-2254 Pg:(902)458-8543 Fx:(479-1177)
ian...@netcom.ca http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3023/ ICQ# 5080641
Sociologist Activist Advocate Community Developer Researcher
Proud father of four great kids:
Nicholas 11 Christopher 8 Ashley 6 Dylan 4
Ian 'Tay' Landry
bfor...@ns.sympatico.ca (Paul Goetze) wrote:
Somewhat both. I believe in a spirit of humanity, of the earth, of nature
- which fits with many Wiccan belives and also with many aboriginal nova
scotian beliegs. If I must be labled then yes I would be a witch or
wiccan or pagan but I do not adhere to any one belief or religion. The
closet thing I have ever found to how I think would be 'The Force' in Star
Wars. I do not believe in an all powerful god or goddess. I do not pray
to anyone or anyting. I believe in the power to be good, honest, sincere,
helpul, caring, etc., that is within each of us and try to nurture its
growth within me. I am quite secular and do use Blessed be because of the
positive sentiment as well as because it fits with what I believe.
Also, there are many different types of beliefs within Wicca, not just a
belief in just one goddess.
Werner Knoll
>
> On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:16:59 -0800, Werner Knoll
> <we...@istar.ca> posted:
>
> >GOD CAN DO EVERYTHING!
> >Question?
> >Can your God build a mountain so big that he cannot move this mountain?
>
> Can Hitler create a holocaust so great god can not stop?
Adolph is pushing daises since 1945. If he had the Atomic bomb with all
the trimmings of today in 1945, he would have used it. The result would
have been that I would not been around and chances are that you would
not have been born.
Werner Knoll
It may be a sin to think evil of people, but it is seldom a mistake
H. L. Mencken
Werner Knoll
>
> If there is no God, there is no heaven, and you're still not going to
> get in.
>
>
> Ryan.
Why would I like to go to heaven?? No thanks. I can easy see with all
the assholes around today what kind of heaven it could be.
Werner Knoll
The dumb always come out ahead because the never knew they were behind.
Ryan
Ryan.
On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:31:29 -0800, Werner Knoll <we...@istar.ca>
wrote:
>
>Why would I like to go to heaven?? No thanks. I can easy see with all
>the assholes around today what kind of heaven it could be.
>
>Werner Knoll
>The dumb always come out ahead because the never knew they were behind.
>
>>
Don't forget to remove the '_nospam_' from my
Ryan
reason the bible was?
On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:45:49 GMT, no...@noyb.no (D. Olynyk) wrote:
>Gee Ryan, I hope the Quran is wrong for your sake. (Pascal's wager is a
>horrible bluff. That's one down, you have six to go).
>
>seven_...@shaw.wave.ca (Ryan) wrote:
>>If there is no God, there is no heaven, and you're still not going to
>>get in.
>>
>>What a predicament.
Don't forget to remove the '_nospam_' from my
Opposite North
<we...@istar.ca> posted:
>Opposite North wrote:
>> On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:16:59 -0800, Werner Knoll
>> <we...@istar.ca> posted:
>> >GOD CAN DO EVERYTHING!
>> >Question?
>> >Can your God build a mountain so big that he cannot move this mountain?
>> Can Hitler create a holocaust so great god can not stop?
>Adolph is pushing daises since 1945. If he had the Atomic bomb with all
>the trimmings of today in 1945, he would have used it. The result would
>have been that I would not been around and chances are that you would
>not have been born.
But the fact that things went as they means you and I were born
and anything else had happened we would not.
So? Existentialism is old news.
I am more interested is this Hitler chap being more powerful
than your god.
Opposite North
Landry) posted:
>In article <3656e7fb....@news.earthlink.net>, ONo...@MC.spamnot.mil
>(Opposite North) wrote:
>
>On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:16:59 -0800, Werner Knoll
><we...@istar.ca> posted:
>
>>GOD CAN DO EVERYTHING!
>>Question?
>>Can your God build a mountain so big that he cannot move this mountain?
> Can Hitler create a holocaust so great god can not stop?
>Yup, he can and he did and WE humans stopped it!!!
Nah. It was stopped before anyone got to the camps. That is in
the literature.
Ryan
On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 19:34:44 GMT, no...@noyb.no (D. Olynyk) wrote:
>And what reason would that be?
>
>seven_...@shaw.wave.ca (Ryan) wrote:
>>And just how do you know the Quran wasn't written by man for the same
>>reason the bible was?
Well, first of all, to give man a sense of direction, a reason for
living. A reason to live by certain rules 'or else'. By no means did
the text need to have divine inspiration to be written. Imagine the
mess the world would be in today if there were no set out rules and
guidelines for people to follow. (not that I'm saying it isn't already
in a mess)
The Quran however, is probably a lot more accurate representation of
the message that these people wanted to put across to everyone. The
Christian bible is twisted and obscured to the point that it's message
gets confused.
You don't need religion to guide you through life and tell you what is
wrong and what isn't. Human beings, for the most part, are able to
decide this on their own. Religions today, especially xtianity, are
just a means of filling empty spots in many people's lives. Some need
to feel as if they are filled with the love of God in order to feel
like they are living life properly, and others don't. It's as simple
as that.
Let the ones who want to believe in something that probably doesn't
exist in the exact sense that they believe it to exist in believe in
it. It all comes down to a personal choice, and whatever you need to
do to get you through each day. But don't disregard the fact that some
individuals have found a deeper meaning to life that goes way beyond
religion and praying for wish fulfillment.
Ryan.
Werner Knoll
>
> And you're somehow better than the typical 'asshole' are you?
>
> Ryan.
>
> On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:31:29 -0800, Werner Knoll <we...@istar.ca>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >Why would I like to go to heaven?? No thanks. I can easy see with all
> >the assholes around today what kind of heaven it could be.
> >
Now you see that it was not that difficult do get this words off your
chest! Feeling much better now?
Actually I do have a Diploma hanging on my wall. It says: "Revealed a
pleasant middle aged man in no distress"
You see. I have experienced how to handle shit for a long, long time. At
times I have to use my paddle to move through.
Last Wednesday my neighbor was assassinated because Sikh fundamentalists
wanted to be closer to God by eating on the ground. Sort of "Fighting
for the Lord." Tara Singh Hayer was a better man than ANY of you ever
will be. He was for me a shining example how people should be. Not once
in all this years he was trying to impose his will on other and me!
Here is another one:
Vancouver Province Sunday, December 1, 1996
Walpole, Mass. John Salvi wanted to be executed for killing two abortion
clinic workers. Because Massachusetts has not death penalty, he was
sentenced to life in prison instead.
Friday, Salvi carried out his own death sentence. Guards found him under
his bed at the maximum security Massachusetts Correctional Institution
at Cedar Junction in Warpole.
Salvi, 24, had a plastic trash bag from the wastebasket tied around his
head.
I suggest you ask your monk habit pisser for some fresh plastic bags,
you could use bevore you kill someone. Let me know who put you up to
your actions so I can send free plastic bags to your supporters.
Werner Knoll
Religion
A special kind of lie cloaked in a smile
Like friendly cyanide
Friendly poison forked tongues aglow
As people disappear
With God's endorsement
Werner Knoll
>
> On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:16:59 -0800, Werner Knoll
> <we...@istar.ca> posted:
>
> >GOD CAN DO EVERYTHING!
> >Question?
> >Can your God build a mountain so big that he cannot move this mountain?
>
> Can Hitler create a holocaust so great god can not stop?
If there was a God, why did he not intervene?
Werner Knoll
"When a man is freed of religion, he has a better chance to live a
normal and wholesome life."
Sigmund Freud
Werner Knoll
>
> On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:31:17 -0800, Werner Knoll
> <we...@istar.ca> posted:
>
> >Opposite North wrote:
>
> >Adolph is pushing daises since 1945. If he had the Atomic bomb with all
> >the trimmings of today in 1945, he would have used it. The result would
> >have been that I would not been around and chances are that you would
> >not have been born.
>
> But the fact that things went as they means you and I were born
> and anything else had happened we would not.
>
> So? Existentialism is old news.
>
> I am more interested is this Hitler chap being more powerful
> than your god.
Existentialism? I couldn't find this word in the restaurant so I assume
it is nothing to eat. Looked in my Dictionary. You are right. That what
it is. Only problem is that there are so many groups and religions that
are more than willing to screw each other up.
Werner Knoll
If you pick up a starving dog and make him prosperous, he will not bite
you. This is the principal difference between a dog and a man.
Mark Twain
Werner Knoll
>
> >> Can Hitler create a holocaust so great god can not stop?
>
> >If there was a God, why did he not intervene?
>
> If there was a god it was less powerful than a man.
>
> If it could have intervened and did not, their holocaust was
> the will of that god and not of the man.
Wait a minute. Some clowns will tell you that God is testing you. If
that is the case, this Guy must be really a means spirited Bastard.
Come to think of it. If there is only one God? Why is Adolph than
punished for doing his work?
One thing is sure. These religious Bastards have you one way or the
other. The will tell us that we are all sinners who should repent!
Werner Knoll
I have noticed all my life that many people think they have religion
when they are troubled with dyspepsia.
R. G. Ingersoll
Werner Knoll
>
> Werner,
>
> I'm not even going to bother to debate things with you, because you
> are obviously set in your ways and very, very ignorant.
>
> If you would read my earlier posts you'd see that I'm actually on your
> side about the whole religion thing, and how absurd it can sometimes
> seem - although I don't resort to the unintelligent 'witty' graphic
> extreme conclusions that you seem to always arrive at. I respect those
> that have differing beliefs, no matter what they may be - you clearly
> do not, but again, it's your choice to be ignorant and arrogant.
Does this include people who kill abortion Doctors? I do know what
happen when this people are not stopped.
Werner Knoll
>
> I mean come on:
>
> >I suggest you ask your monk habit pisser for some fresh plastic bags,
> >you could use bevore you kill someone. Let me know who put you up to
> >your actions so I can send free plastic bags to your supporters.
>
> Don't you have any taste at all? If you're trying to insult me, or
> anybody for that matter, at least do it properly and use your brain.
> Is that hard for you?
>
> >Actually I do have a Diploma hanging on my wall. It says: "Revealed a
> >pleasant middle aged man in no distress"
>
> No offence, but take it down and give it to sombody who deserves it.
Ryan
I'm not even going to bother to debate things with you, because you
are obviously set in your ways and very, very ignorant.
If you would read my earlier posts you'd see that I'm actually on your
side about the whole religion thing, and how absurd it can sometimes
seem - although I don't resort to the unintelligent 'witty' graphic
extreme conclusions that you seem to always arrive at. I respect those
that have differing beliefs, no matter what they may be - you clearly
do not, but again, it's your choice to be ignorant and arrogant.
I mean come on:
Lennier
<we...@istar.ca> posted:
>Opposite North wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:16:59 -0800, Werner Knoll
>> <we...@istar.ca> posted:
>>
>> >GOD CAN DO EVERYTHING!
>> >Question?
>> >Can your God build a mountain so big that he cannot move this mountain?
>>
Lennier
<we...@istar.ca> posted:
>Opposite North wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 10:31:17 -0800, Werner Knoll
>> <we...@istar.ca> posted:
>>
>> >Opposite North wrote:
>>
>
>> >Adolph is pushing daises since 1945. If he had the Atomic bomb with all
>> >the trimmings of today in 1945, he would have used it. The result would
>> >have been that I would not been around and chances are that you would
>> >not have been born.
>>
>> But the fact that things went as they means you and I were born
>> and anything else had happened we would not.
>>
>> So? Existentialism is old news.
>>
>> I am more interested is this Hitler chap being more powerful
>> than your god.
>
>
>Existentialism? I couldn't find this word in the restaurant so I assume
>it is nothing to eat. Looked in my Dictionary. You are right. That what
>it is. Only problem is that there are so many groups and religions that
>are more than willing to screw each other up.
My point was of course that this "greatest evil ever" was
created by a man and greater than that god could prevent.
And since that god was powerless, adherence to worship of the
god was meaningless, and thus their holocaust was meaningless. It
was no more than adhering to a god less powerful than a man.
Ryan
You'd almost think I'm the one going around whacking abortion docs.
What's your problem anyway? I sense that you're more than just a
LITTLE bit nuts. I'm sorry the Christians hate you, really I am. I'm
also really shaking my head as I read your in-cohesive ramblings,
thinking, "My god, the people who whack the abortion docs must be more
stable than this poor guy!"
Sheesh!
On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 20:42:35 -0800, Werner Knoll <we...@istar.ca>
wrote:
>
>Does this include people who kill abortion Doctors? I do know what
>happen when this people are not stopped.
>
>Werner Knoll
>
>>
Werner Knoll
>
> Geez Werner,
>
> You'd almost think I'm the one going around whacking abortion docs.
> What's your problem anyway? I sense that you're more than just a
> LITTLE bit nuts. I'm sorry the Christians hate you, really I am. I'm
> also really shaking my head as I read your in-cohesive ramblings,
> thinking, "My god, the people who whack the abortion docs must be more
> stable than this poor guy!"
>
> Sheesh!
Somebody does. And it stand to reason that the have the support of other
religious fanatics. Now where are these religious leaders who were more
than willing to put this wrong ideas in this guy's heads. Surely without
spiritual guidance this guy's would not be around!
This is a dog eat dog world. Survival of the fittest! Can you explain to
me why these religious misfits are so much against socialism? Here in
BC this hallelujah gangsters are actively working to get the socialist
out of office because thy feel the NDP is pro abortion.
***************************************************
ACTS 4:32-35
Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul,
and no claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they
owned was held in common. With great power the apostles gave their
testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was
upon them all. There was
Not a needy person among them, for as many as owned lands or houses sold
them and brought the proceeds of what was sold. They laid it at the
apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as
Any has needed.
Other relevant passages include Matthew 25:14-46, Luke 6:20-31 and James
2:1-7.
*****************************************************
Here are your real Socialist!!!!
Tell me? Are this people in ACTS 4:32-35 the same we have here who
praise the Lord so they can screw other people.
It is my firm believes that the world would not be worse off without a
religion. Religion STINKS.
Werner Knoll
No wild beasts are hostile to men as Christian sects in general are to
one another.
Emporer Julian
Mrs. Savoie
It was pretty tough if you were German in Canada back in the '40s, you
would get called names and even get beaten up. And it was worse if you were
Japanese, you were rounded up, your property seized and were put in
detainment camps for the balance of the war. Just look at how horrible we
and the Allies were to the enemy!
This is far worse, or at least is on the same level as organized euthenasia,
of Jews, Gypsies and Gays in the same mechinized way we process livestock
for human consumption. See the Jews killed Jesus the Jew, and the Gypsies
are shylocks, and Gays are a pox on the earth. So just how bad can their
extermination be truely.
They are all vermin. Neither have their own country. But these people stuck
together like nomads, contaminating and causing every single problem in each
and everybodies intolerant lives.
This generation does not understand the horror of war. Civilians have always
been legitimate military targets. This is the price of war. Life, liberty
and freedom are won or lost. Sure more people died in the Allied fire
bombings in Germany than died in both atomic bombings in Japan. Dresden was
incinerated if I recall correctly.
But that was not genocide. Genocide is a deliberate campaign to eliminate a
race or tribe of people by another race or tribe. Not to stop a destructive
murderous madman, like Adolf or Saddam.
Hate is a pretty powerful emotion. It is the worst feeling that brings out
the worst in humanity. To convict every individual of a group for mostly
imagined crimes is insanity. And this insanity is the most devious and
dangerous hate which can destroy anyones life with a touch. Anyones at
anytime. Do you want to have to live through the experience of genocide to
understand its evil. The Jews have been a persecuted people for a long time.
They were virtually exterminated from Europe during WWII. They don't want
that to happen again. So they harp on it to remind the world not to forget
what happens when you let blind hate rule. Can you really blame them. It is
a tough job. It is one of the most documented events of the century, and
people guided by thier hate are willing to deny it even took place in spite
of the mountain of evidence, not to mention eye witness acounts of victims
and purportrators.
People are funny animals.
Werner Knoll <we...@istar.ca> wrote in message
news:3655B68E...@istar.ca...
>E. Barry Bruyea wrote:
>>
>> On Thu, 19 Nov 1998 19:31:59 -0800, Werner Knoll <we...@istar.ca>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Werner Knoll wrote:
>
>> >
>> >How old are you? Here I am telling it how it is and you are worried
>> >about proper English.
>> >
>> >Imagine. You and your brother are 11 years old and evacuated to a small
>> >Bavarian Village were everybody is Catholic. Imagine as a welcome
>> >gesture you and your brother is getting beat up and being told that you
>> >not welcome there because you are heathen! Imagine you are told by the
>> >village priest that you are not welcome in the Catholic Church because
>> >you would make the church unclean \ desecrate!
>> >
>> >Imagine your father comes to a visit and is wrestled to the ground in
>> >front of you because he did not remove his cap in front of a cross fast
>> >enough?
>> >
>> >It is not me who invented the words: "An Eye for an Eye and a Tooth for
>> >a Tooth"
>> >
>> >It is not me who said in the Thirty Year Religios War in Europe "
>> >if you do not like to be my Brother, than I will kill you"
>> >
>> >Werner Knoll
>>
>> It is unfortunate that you and your family were treated in this
>> manner, but remember, it beats the hell out of getting shoved into a
>> gas chamber.
>
>Why is getting killed in a gas chamber more cruel than any other methods
>to kill innocent people? I do believe that we ALL have to be reminded
>about the holocaust so it will never happen again but I also believe
>that the allies should also be exposed to the same scrutiny. This is not
>happening. One of the reason? The Jewish groups insistence that their
>suffering has priority above everything else.
>
>Werner Knoll
Mrs. Savoie
Bill <bih...@axionet.com> wrote in message news:36566...@news.vphos.net...
>In article <36577845...@news.cal.shaw.wave.ca>,
>seven_...@shaw.wave.ca says...
>>
>>If there is no God, there is no heaven, and you're still not going to
>>get in.
>>
>>What a predicament.
>>
>
>Heaven could be merely the name Christians use to refer to the dimension
>that life energy attains when the human body expires. Why does this
>dimension (heaven if you must) have to have religious connotations? What if
>there is no God but there is "heaven"? I can still get in, right?
>--
>....Bill
> The world is the insane asylum of the universe.
> George Bernard Shaw
>
Mrs. Savoie
God
Ian 'Tay' Landry <ian...@netcom.ca> wrote in message
news:iantay-2111...@hal-ns1-08.netcom.ca...
>In article <F2rDo6.86s...@torfree.net>, bk...@torfree.net (John
>Lauzon) wrote:
>
>Ian 'Tay' Landry (ian...@netcom.ca) wrote:
>: In article <F2nEKo.9Lv...@torfree.net>, bk...@torfree.net (John
>: Lauzon) wrote:
>
>: Subject: Attacks on "Focus on the Family" & morals
>
>: THIS IS A MUST READ ESPECIALLY FOR ALL THOSE WHO ARE NOT INFORMED
>: ABOUT THE SPIN CONTROL OF THE MEDIA AND THE LIBERAL LEFT AND THE
>: HOMOSEXUAL MOVEMENT AND DON'T SEE CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION
>
>: November 1998
>
>: Dear Friends:
>: This kind of stuff would not happen if you would stop trying to force
your
>: beliefs and values onto other people!!!!!!!
>
>
>Funny...I don't recall getting to 'vote' for or against abortion???
>
>of course not, you we do not live in a direct democracy but instead elect
>leaders who are supposed to represent the majority.
>
>--
>'Blessed Be' from:
>
>Ian 'Tay' Landry, BSc BA MA
>24 Indigo Walk, Halifax, NS Can. B3R 1G4
>Ph:(902)479-2254 Pg:(902)458-8543 Fx:(479-1177)
>ian...@netcom.ca http://www.geocities.com/Athens/3023/ ICQ# 5080641
>
>Sociologist Activist Advocate Community Developer Researcher
>
Wes Whitlock
live NAZI.
Hey Werner, I think I found a love match for you! Hand in hand, you two can
goose-step down the aisle... oh wait, that's in a church, you wouldn't be
there, sorry.
Mrs. Savoie, you poor hate-filled, misguided, abomination. I removed your
diatribe from my reply because not only is it a ridiculous rant, but because
it probably qualifies as hate literature. As well, I certainly do NOT want
to be responsible for passing your filth around.
Did you bother to read your own stuff? Imagine; being German in Canada
during the war, getting called names and even occasionally beaten up. Yeah,
them Jews, gypsies and gays sure had it sweet: the gas chambers, live
burials, ghoulish experiments, skinned for leather. Good thing they're only
vermin, right?
Do you really believe this?
Please, do the rest of humanity a favour and remove your skewed DNA from the
gene pool. I can't condone violence, so why don't YOU just do the honourable
thing: slit your wrists, jump off a bridge, you could even gas yourself (now
THAT would be appropriate!), do something!
I don't hate you... I fear you.
Wes.
PS To Werner: same applies to you, buddy.
Werner Knoll
you? Carry on by using word association to prove your point. There are
plenty of people to fall for your line. Always have and always will.
Werner Knoll
Wes Whitlock wrote:
>
> Wow! It's true, there really is still a few of you relics around. A real
> live NAZI.
>
> Hey Werner, I think I found a love match for you! Hand in hand, you two can
> goose-step down the aisle... oh wait, that's in a church, you wouldn't be
> there, sorry.
>
> Mrs. Savoie, you poor hate-filled, misguided, abomination. I removed your
> diatribe from my reply because not only is it a ridiculous rant, but because
> it probably qualifies as hate literature. As well, I certainly do NOT want
> to be responsible for passing your filth around.
You just replaced it with your own. :-)))
>
> Did you bother to read your own stuff? Imagine; being German in Canada
> during the war, getting called names and even occasionally beaten up. Yeah,
> them Jews, gypsies and gays sure had it sweet: the gas chambers, live
> burials, ghoulish experiments, skinned for leather. Good thing they're only
> vermin, right?
>
> Do you really believe this?
>
> Please, do the rest of humanity a favour and remove your skewed DNA from the
> gene pool. I can't condone violence, so why don't YOU just do the honourable
> thing: slit your wrists, jump off a bridge, you could even gas yourself (now
> THAT would be appropriate!), do something!
>
> I don't hate you... I fear you.
>
> Wes.
>
> PS To Werner: same applies to you, buddy.
Here, you are just proving my point. Wes is blowing smoke.
Wes Whitlock
>you? Carry on by using word association to prove your point. There are
>plenty of people to fall for your line. Always have and always will.
Oh, get off it you demented old NAZI. Even YOU can't really believe
that.
Wes
Werner Knoll
What makes you think that I am an OLD NAZI? Nowhere did I say anything
to promote National Socialism and what the Nazis did to innocent people.
If you think that this is not so, let me know why. Surely you must
realize by now that Jewish people must be open to the same scrutiny like
everybody else!!
What I said over and over again that People like you believe in Tribal
punishment. That puts you in the same camp like so called Nazis who were
willing to see Jews as bad people and evil.
You have a lot to learn Boy. If you would look closely at Savoi's e-mail
address and his style, you could easily see that is main objective was
to get guy's like you worked up.
Ryan
<pierrethef...@home.com> wrote:
>This is far worse, or at least is on the same level as organized euthenasia,
>of Jews, Gypsies and Gays in the same mechinized way we process livestock
>for human consumption. See the Jews killed Jesus the Jew, and the Gypsies
>are shylocks, and Gays are a pox on the earth. So just how bad can their
>extermination be truely.
>They are all vermin. Neither have their own country. But these people stuck
>together like nomads, contaminating and causing every single problem in each
>and everybodies intolerant lives.
So what do gays have to do with war? Nothing? That's what I thought.
Its the people like you that start the wars - because certain people
don't conform to how you want them to be.
And furthermore, what makes you better than a Jew, or a gay? I fail to
see how they aren't human beings. Where do people like you get your
primitive views and knowledge from? Ah yes. The horribly twisted and
misrepresented holy bible..(and no, I'm not even going to grace it's
name with a capital "H" and "B"). Could that be the source of your
ignorance? It seems to be for millions of others just like you.
You should go meet up with Werner. I bet you two would get along
great. You seem to be equally as stupid as him.
If you really believe the groups you despise are the reason for your
problems, you're mistaken. You're denying the fact that without people
like you, there wouldn't be any reason to have a problem with these
groups. Perhaps you're at the root of the problem? You'll deny it, but
then again, that's what you do. Hatred and denial are probably the
only things you're good at - and I feel sorry for you; what a waste of
a life.
VCP
wrote:
>
>Funny...I don't recall getting to 'vote' for or against abortion???
>
>John...:)
Have you had a vote on any medical procedure ?
vcp
----------------------------------------------------
For real e-mail address use v...@istar.ca
----------------------------------------------------
allonzo
>
>'people are funny animals'
not really very funny when they refuse to see the
genocidal policies of the U.S. and Canadian leaders.
Perhaps Vietnam didn't really happen. After all if
you don't percieve something well then its not
necessarily true. What about the genocidal program
of sanctions against the Iraqui people. Again,according to some,
if you
don't 'percieve' it, its not necessarily true.
Sometimes I appreciate your sentiment but you are
too ahistorical. You will have to face the fact of your
own leaders' crimes sooner or later.
Wes Whitlock
>> >you? Carry on by using word association to prove your point. There are
>> >plenty of people to fall for your line. Always have and always will.
>>
>> Oh, get off it you demented old NAZI. Even YOU can't really believe
>> that.
>>
>> Wes
>
>What makes you think that I am an OLD NAZI? Nowhere did I say anything
>to promote National Socialism and what the Nazis did to innocent people.
>If you think that this is not so, let me know why. Surely you must
>realize by now that Jewish people must be open to the same scrutiny like
>everybody else!!
Sorry Werner, you may not be old but you are a NAZI. You may have a
different name for it now, something like the "Hate-filled, Anti-Semitic
Association of Narrow-minded Crazy Aryans". Which Jewish people do you
propose we all scrutinise: the pile of bones at Bergen-Belsen or the
warehouse of human hair at Auschwitz?
>
>What I said over and over again that People like you believe in Tribal
>punishment. That puts you in the same camp like so called Nazis who were
>willing to see Jews as bad people and evil.
Actually, Herr Werner, this is the FIRST time you have said that. What
it might mean I'm not sure. If you are suggesting that I have said one
ethnic group may be superior to another, you should go re-read this thread.
Yes, I HAVE suggested that YOU are an inferior human being, but that is NOT
based blindly on any ethnic preconception. YOU are inferior because you hate
without logic (you are also quite mentally unbalanced, but that is probably
not your fault).
>
>You have a lot to learn Boy. If you would look closely at Savoi's e-mail
>address and his style, you could easily see that is main objective was
>to get guy's like you worked up.
Hey, wait a second there Werner, ol' buddy. I thought you said that I
was "Mrs. Savoie" under an alias. Did I miss something? If I have a lot to
learn, you must be OLD and wise... I guess you ARE and old NAZI.
Wes
Mrs. Savoie
allonzo <dubl...@tallships.istar.ca> wrote in message
news:3659EAC8...@tallships.istar.ca...
>Mrs. Savoie wrote:
>>
>>'people are funny animals'
>not really very funny when they refuse to see the
>genocidal policies of the U.S. and Canadian leaders.
Yeah a terrorist is a freedom fighter, just depends on what side you are on,
right?
But War and Genocide are not the same thing, even though war can facilitate
genocide.
>Perhaps Vietnam didn't really happen. After all if
>you don't percieve something well then its not
>necessarily true.
Vietnam happened. But how do you preceive that is was genocide?
If it was genocide, then the South would have been subjected to the same
taste of napalm, but they weren't. That is because it was a war, and not
genocide.
The North and Sourth Vietnamese are the same race, the same culture, the
same people. What was being attacked in the north was their communistic
ideology and not their race or ethnicity.
>What about the genocidal program
>of sanctions against the Iraqui people. Again,according to some,
> if you
>don't 'percieve' it, its not necessarily true.
I think the sanctions against the Iraqi people are true. The Un resolution
makes it true. The sanctions would end, if only the Iraqi war machine would
comply to the terms which are to give up weapons of mass destruction. I
perceive that to be fair.
What I don't think is fair is the genocide the Iraqi regime is perpetrating
against the Kurds. Killing of Kurds just because they are Kurds. You must
not be Kurdish!
>Sometimes I appreciate your sentiment but you are
>too ahistorical. You will have to face the fact of your
>own leaders' crimes sooner or later.
My leaders operate under International Law not matrial law!
War is legitimate. War crimes are not.
Genocide is when a race or ethnic group is targeted for extermination for
one reason. They belong to that race or ethnic group. This is not a legal
premise for a war. Though I may not agree with all American and Canadian
military action, I have yet to be convinced of any genocide.
Werner Knoll
> >What makes you think that I am an OLD NAZI? Nowhere did I say anything
> >to promote National Socialism and what the Nazis did to innocent people.
> >If you think that this is not so, let me know why. Surely you must
> >realize by now that Jewish people must be open to the same scrutiny like
> >everybody else!!
>
> Sorry Werner, you may not be old but you are a NAZI. You may have a
> different name for it now, something like the "Hate-filled, Anti-Semitic
> Association of Narrow-minded Crazy Aryans". Which Jewish people do you
> propose we all scrutinise: the pile of bones at Bergen-Belsen or the
> warehouse of human hair at Auschwitz?
Nothing has changed. If you do not like what you hear remind him of
something from the past?
Tell you what. If I were Jewish, I would do the same to bring my point
across. You seem to like the words Anti Jewish a lot? I am not for
Nazis. I am not against Jews or other minorities. I am angry that people
like you use the words Anti Jewish to make me and other look the other
way when this people commit crimes against humanity. Just to protect
this
special group of people.
*******************************************************
Vancouver Province Friday January 23, 1998
Violinist slams 'NAZI' Israel
Parisů Violinist Yehudin Menuhin, 81 yesterday compared the current
atmosphere in Israel with that of Nazi Germany.
"Israel's mission is no longer that of a Promised Land for a persecuted
people. That's over"
The celebrated Jewish violinist told the French daily LE Figaro during a
brief visit to Paris.
"Israel's mission now is more importantů. It to make peace in the Middle
East. But it increasingly seems to me that this is not possible."
"Those who insist on war should remember that those who want Jerusalem
for themselves alone were always defeated" he said in reference to
Israeli claims to the whole city.
"What's extraordinary is that some things never die completely, even the
illness which prevailed yesterday in Nazi Germany and today progressing
in the land (Israel)," Menuhin said. -Reuter.
********************************************************
>
> >
> >What I said over and over again that People like you believe in Tribal
> >punishment. That puts you in the same camp like so called Nazis who were
> >willing to see Jews as bad people and evil.
>
> Actually, Herr Werner, this is the FIRST time you have said that. What
> it might mean I'm not sure. If you are suggesting that I have said one
> ethnic group may be superior to another, you should go re-read this thread.
> Yes, I HAVE suggested that YOU are an inferior human being, but that is NOT
> based blindly on any ethnic preconception. YOU are inferior because you hate
> without logic (you are also quite mentally unbalanced, but that is probably
> not your fault).
What I am saying here that it makes no difference to what kind of person
I or somebody else is. What is important is his background or
association.
>
> >
> >You have a lot to learn Boy. If you would look closely at Savoi's e-mail
> >address and his style, you could easily see that is main objective was
> >to get guy's like you worked up.
>
> Hey, wait a second there Werner, ol' buddy. I thought you said that I
> was "Mrs. Savoie" under an alias. Did I miss something? If I have a lot to
> learn, you must be OLD and wise... I guess you ARE and old NAZI.
>
> Wes
I used this statement to say to you that you used his nonsense to get
your point across without consideration or not caring that this could be
insulting. I am sure that you used these words in frustration and anger.
Well we all are humane and have our feeling. So the only difference is
that when I say it, it must be hate!!
Werner Knoll
There is so much good in the worst of us and so much bad in the best of
us, that it is rather hard to tell which of us ought to reform the rest
of us.
Sign in Springdale, Connecticut.
allonzo
What International Law. They are breaking every international law
and norm. Show me the international law that allows them to wage
war.
> Genocide is when a race or ethnic group is targeted for extermination for
> one reason. They belong to that race or ethnic group. This is not a legal
> premise for a war. Though I may not agree with all American and Canadian
> military action, I have yet to be convinced of any genocide.
The outrlight murder of 3 million in Vietnam wasn't enough
for you. The murder of 1.500,000 Iraqui men women and children
wasn't enough.
What number does it require for genocide. What about the
native people of North America.
You do have a severe perceptual problem. It seems shared with
some others.
Your leaders are Nazis and they march under Hitlers Banner of
'Peace Through Strength' This is NATO's motto and it was the
motto of the Warsaw Pact.
They strut around like little emperors declaring they will
drop their 'human rights' bombs on any nation that doesn't
comply. They set up their little democracies with puppets
hand-chosen to do their bidding.
Wes Whitlock
>something from the past?
Actually, mein Werner, you are the one who started that. Something about
being beaten by Catholics, I believe. Be that as it may, let us deal with
present (and the future). Today, this hour, this minute, this second, let's
start over. All the past has been erased, there are no grudges, rivalries,
differences or other reasons for anyone to hate thy neighbour. Who now, will
be the first to cast a stone?
Hard to let go of those old prejudices, isn't it, my old friend?
The truth is that we can't lose our past. How we think is entirely based
upon our past, and from which side of the fence we saw it. The best we can
do is to expose ourselves to as many points of view as possible to
understand how (and why) the rest of the world thinks. Only then do we
become "enlightened", only then can we think for ourselves and not simply
pass on our forefather's out-dated, limited visions. Let your strengths (and
weaknesses) be all your own, not your father's or grandfather's or his
father's. Stopping the cycle of senseless hate is as simple as that. Try
thinking for your self, Wern, you might get to like it.
>You seem to like the words Anti Jewish a lot?
The word was "anti-Semitic" and if you're not, you certainly put on a
good show (read your posts).
>I am not against Jews or other minorities. I am angry that people
>like you use the words Anti Jewish to make me and other look the other
>way when this people commit crimes against humanity. Just to protect
>this
>special group of people.
Werner, my little cabbage, you are a seething mass of contradiction. You
admonish me for bringing up the past and a paragraph later, you do the same.
You say you are "not against Jews", then focus right back on them. Go to
Yugoslavia, or East Timor, or Iraq and see some real persecution. Why do you
not take up the worthy cause of those people? Because their problems do not
dove-tail with your established prejudices, that's why.
I certainly do NOT condone all the actions of the Israeli government, I
just get tired of people (like you, I'm afraid) using it to further their
own personal agenda. You don't speak of solutions, only revenge.
>What I am saying here that it makes no difference to what kind of person
>I or somebody else is. What is important is his background or
>association.
Now, Werner old boy, you can't really mean THAT. I must be reading it
wrong, you can do better.
>I used this statement to say to you that you used his nonsense to get
>your point across without consideration or not caring that this could be
>insulting. I am sure that you used these words in frustration and anger.
>Well we all are humane and have our feeling. So the only difference is
>that when I say it, it must be hate!!
Now, you might have a point there. Herr Savoie's rant was extreme, even
by your standards. I should have ignored him (her?). People like that are
only a social oddity (I hope!). Yes, I showed anger in my words to him, but
it was directed at him. I didn't condemn his entire race, gender, religion
or
ethnic background.
>There is so much good in the worst of us and so much bad in the best of
>us, that it is rather hard to tell which of us ought to reform the rest
>of us.
>Sign in Springdale, Connecticut.
I like that, old friend. I may use it sometime.
Wes
Werner Knoll
>
> >Nothing has changed. If you do not like what you hear remind him of
> >something from the past?
>
> Actually, mein Werner, you are the one who started that. Something about
> being beaten by Catholics, I believe. Be that as it may, let us deal with
> present (and the future). Today, this hour, this minute, this second, let's
> start over. All the past has been erased, there are no grudges, rivalries,
> differences or other reasons for anyone to hate thy neighbour. Who now, will
> be the first to cast a stone?
That is true. Now I know that many people here believe that talking
about the past should be off limits for Germans.
I do not expect people to forget the past. What I expect from people who
been throwing stones at Germans to give us the same chance as they had.
I am very good at criticizing other people. Perhaps it has something to
do with what my job demanded when I was still working. It was my job as
a troubleshooter not to leave thing up to chance.
I am even harsh on myself when I do something wrong. I remember when I
left my keys in my car. I was 3 miles away from home and could have
phoned home for somebody to pick me up. No that was too easy. So walked
home to get my keys and back again to teach myself a lesson. Tell you
what? That was the first and last time it happened.
>
> Hard to let go of those old prejudices, isn't it, my old friend?
>
> The truth is that we can't lose our past. How we think is entirely based
> upon our past, and from which side of the fence we saw it. The best we can
> do is to expose ourselves to as many points of view as possible to
> understand how (and why) the rest of the world thinks. Only then do we
> become "enlightened", only then can we think for ourselves and not simply
> pass on our forefather's out-dated, limited visions. Let your strengths (and
> weaknesses) be all your own, not your father's or grandfather's or his
> father's. Stopping the cycle of senseless hate is as simple as that. Try
> thinking for your self, Wern, you might get to like it.
>
> >You seem to like the words Anti Jewish a lot?
>
> The word was "anti-Semitic" and if you're not, you certainly put on a
> good show (read your posts).
>
> >I am not against Jews or other minorities. I am angry that people
> >like you use the words Anti Jewish to make me and other look the other
> >way when this people commit crimes against humanity. Just to protect
> >this
> >special group of people.
>
> Werner, my little cabbage, you are a seething mass of contradiction. You
> admonish me for bringing up the past and a paragraph later, you do the same.
> You say you are "not against Jews", then focus right back on them. Go to
> Yugoslavia, or East Timor, or Iraq and see some real persecution. Why do you
> not take up the worthy cause of those people? Because their problems do not
> dove-tail with your established prejudices, that's why.
Lets look at it from another angle.
How many Jewish people are out there who are getting insulded every day
for something they did not do but every day of their lives the must eat
this hate propoganda against them. Would you like them to keep their
mouth shut and not fight back? I hope NOT.
So why is it than so difficult for you and others to expect from us that
we also have a story to tell. The only difference is that we say
something, people are saying; well this is Nazi talk and Anti-Semitic.
Please put yourself in the position of being German born, how you would
feel about this.
.********************************************
"Crimes and Mercies" by James Bacque ISBN 0 316 64070 0
Page 109 your guilty before you are born.
After Dr Kent was released, and had emigrated with some other survivors,
first to Canada and then to the USA, she found that people refused to
believe any stories about atrocities against Germans by the Allies.
Once, when she was a student at a university in the US, she approached a
group of students conversing with a professor.
When Kent joined in, the professor said, 'Here's our little Nazi. Seigh
Heil.' Her younger sister once spoke if her family's sufferings in some
camps to some American students. 'What did you do to deserve that?'
someone asked. She answered that she had nursed at her mother's breast.
At the end of the war, her sister was one year old, Dr Kent was five.
.*********************************************
Any comment on Dr. Kent story? This is not an isolated case. Happen to
most of us at one time or another.
>
> I certainly do NOT condone all the actions of the Israeli government, I
> just get tired of people (like you, I'm afraid) using it to further their
> own personal agenda. You don't speak of solutions, only revenge.
I am speaking of being angry.
>
> >What I am saying here that it makes no difference to what kind of person
> >I or somebody else is. What is important is his background or
> >association.
>
> Now, Werner old boy, you can't really mean THAT. I must be reading it
> wrong, you can do better.
Perhaps I may be wrong but I do remember being told by people not to
talk to others because they are not on our side. What this people could
not understand, that I am willing to talk to people with other opinions
even when the are on the wrong side. If they are right on some points, I
will support them.
>
> >I used this statement to say to you that you used his nonsense to get
> >your point across without consideration or not caring that this could be
> >insulting. I am sure that you used these words in frustration and anger.
> >Well we all are humane and have our feeling. So the only difference is
> >that when I say it, it must be hate!!
>
> Now, you might have a point there. Herr Savoie's rant was extreme, even
> by your standards. I should have ignored him (her?). People like that are
> only a social oddity (I hope!). Yes, I showed anger in my words to him, but
> it was directed at him. I didn't condemn his entire race, gender, religion
> or
> ethnic background.
Well Savoie is helping nobody with his statements. How would he feel if
he were a member of any of these groups he is attacking.
Now you may say, Why is he attacking religion? Personally it is not the
religion by itself but an attack on people who are using religion for
they're on gain.
Werner Knoll
E. McDermott
>Adolf Schickelgruber signed with the monk habit pisser in Rome a
>Concordat 1938?. Sort of an agreement were they said: you scratch my
>back and I scratch your back.
>Here is what Adolf said about the Jews:
>Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of
>the Almighty Creator by defending myself against the Jews. I am fighting
>for the work of the Lord.
>Hitler Mein Kampf
snip
>Werner Knoll
I'm surprised at this quotation. According to all my reading Aldophy
has little or not respect for Christianity, considering it a softening
influence that moved the Aryan race from their true calling. He
preferred to emphasize other views, including astrology, pseudo
science, and so forth.
However, at the beginning of his career he did belong to a mystic
organization call the "Ultima Thule".
remove nospam to send me mail. No I don't want to make a million dollars or earn $53124 in the next two month.
allonzo
Nuremburg declared it a crime against humanity to prommote war
OR THE PREPARATIONS FOR WAR as a solution to economic problems.
How many politicians have you heard say that high tech industry
(a euphemism for war industry) provides jobs. There are many
right here in Nova Scotia and people have protested, here and
all across Canada.
Who do you think provided the arms to the regimes who
perpetrate crimes on their own people's.
Your view is still ahistorical and selective.
You should look a little more closely at your own society.
Mrs. Savoie
Stopping another nation from transgression upon another.
Having your ships attacked on the high seas is another.
Protecting your sovereignty is another legal ground to wag war.
Being Kurdish is not reason enough to wage war.
War is not genocide. Genocide is not killing people, it is a planned
elimination of a race or ethnic group. Stop being thick. If you have another
point to make, then do it.
3 Million Vietnamese, and how many did the Russian backed Vietnamese kill?
That was a civil war that became a pawn in the cold war between Democracy
and Communism. The war was morally wrong. However, cruel as the American
military was, they did not commit genocide. Even if they killed every single
North Vietnamese person, they still would not have committed genocide,
because there would still be millions of Vietnamese.
Iraq is a hooligan state. The military dictator uses civilians as shields.
They placed their civilians in harms way by placing military installations
in the midst of the population. Who really is the criminal? Again, there was
no attempt to eliminate the Iraqi people. If the USA wanted to eliminate
Iraq, and cared nothing about the civialian population, Iraq would not
exist. America can eliminate any enemy it wishes. You know it and I know it.
Turn the desert to glass baby! But America, corrupt as it is, actually is
not the devil Saddam claims it to be. Yet Saddam still is trying to
eliminate anything Kurdish.
Nato is a western military alliance. The Warsaw Pact is an eastern military
alliance. The United Nations is a quasi-democratic world body represting
most nations on earth, and is comprised of the nations of both Nato and
Warsaw pact members. The U.N. imposed the sanctions on Iraq, and the States,
and Nato are enforcing it.
The indigenous native peoples of North America is basically a different
story.
Indians were the victims of genocide. They were systematically hunted down
and killed only because they were Indians. Governments conspired to
segregate them, starve them, give them disease, and murder them. All because
they were Indians.
Now that is an example of Genocide.
Maybe you finally get the difference between war and genocide. In war, you
fight until you win and then it is over, leaving your enemy in defeat. To
the victor goes the spoils. In genocide, you fight until every single one of
your enemies is dead, and that is the spoils. If you can't see the
difference, then loosen the towel.
allonzo <dubl...@tallships.istar.ca> wrote in message
news:365A664A...@tallships.istar.ca...
John Lauzon
: Lauzon) wrote:
: Ian 'Tay' Landry (ian...@netcom.ca) wrote:
: : In article <F2nEKo.9Lv...@torfree.net>, bk...@torfree.net (John
: : Lauzon) wrote:
: : Subject: Attacks on "Focus on the Family" & morals
: : THIS IS A MUST READ ESPECIALLY FOR ALL THOSE WHO ARE NOT INFORMED
: : ABOUT THE SPIN CONTROL OF THE MEDIA AND THE LIBERAL LEFT AND THE
: : HOMOSEXUAL MOVEMENT AND DON'T SEE CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION
: : November 1998
: : Dear Friends:
: : This kind of stuff would not happen if you would stop trying to force your
: : beliefs and values onto other people!!!!!!!
: Funny...I don't recall getting to 'vote' for or against abortion???
: of course not, you we do not live in a direct democracy but instead elect
: leaders who are supposed to represent the majority.
Is that why Chretien wouldn't allow candidates into his party that where
'pro-life' on the pretense that they where a 'one issue' candidate? When
all your candidates are selected because they are pro-death advocates
than how do you expect abortion to get a 'fair' vote in parliament when
the system is rigged against it?
John
--
\ [P] / o<<<<<>>>>> "PRAY THE HOLY ROSARY" <<<<<>>>>>o \ [F] /
-- [[[R]]] -- I extend to you who is reading this .sig the -- [[[A]]] --
/ [A] \ "SPECIAL BLESSING" of the "QUEEN OF PEACE" / [S] \
/ [Y] \ o<<<<<>>>>>"Our Lady of Medjugorje"<<<<<>>>>>o / [T] \
John Lauzon
: On Sat, 21 Nov 1998 06:21:41 GMT, bk...@torfree.net (John Lauzon)
: wrote:
: >
: >Funny...I don't recall getting to 'vote' for or against abortion???
: >
: >John...:)
: Have you had a vote on any medical procedure ?
: vcp
Than why do they hold those phoney votes on abortion in parliament, where
the candidates have to vote party lines and is NOT A FREE VOTE, or when
pro-life candidates are rejected by the party because of they're pro-life
stand. The system isn't fair to pro-lifers and never has been, because
the media say the majority of the population is 'pro-choice' doesn't make
it so.
John Lauzon
: In article <36577845...@news.cal.shaw.wave.ca>,
: >
: >If there is no God, there is no heaven, and you're still not going to
: >get in.
: >
: >What a predicament.
: >
: >Ryan.
: Heaven could be merely the name Christians use to refer to the dimension
: that life energy attains when the human body expires. Why does this
: dimension (heaven if you must) have to have religious connotations? What if
: there is no God but there is "heaven"? I can still get in, right?
: --
: ....Bill
Not really Bill, Christ said you have to go through Him to get to the
Father, and if you don't believe in Christ than you will never get to see
the Father or Heaven, and you also have to do what Christ has asked you to
do in the New Testament. Sorry...Heaven isn't available to those who
purposely 'don't' want to believe because it inconveniences they're life
style or they just 'hate' God because those who go to hell hate God and
have chosen to go to hell where they endlessly curse God from it's fiery
depths. They are not happy souls.
At the end of the world your bodies are resurrected and reunited with your
soul, and again judged, you than go into hell, or Paradise, with a young
fresh body to suffer in hell or to the joy of Heaven for all eternity...
the choice is yours.
I'll tell you it's 'hell' outside of Heaven where your without God's
light, in darkness, without hope of ever seeing God or the light of day
again, and this condition lasts forever, just you suspended in blackness,
feeling nothing, and only your own mind for company, forever and ever.
A couple of years ago I was given this dream 'experience' for only what
seemed like a few seconds, which was the most terrifying thing that has
happened to me in my lifetime. The next night I experienced Heaven, the
most joyful experience I'v had in my lifetime, I know what Heaven feels
like and if I'm good, I might get there, I know Heaven is cheering me
on...:)
God bless
John...:)
allonzo
>
> There are many legal grounds for a nation to wage war.
> Stopping another nation from transgression upon another.
> Having your ships attacked on the high seas is another.
> Protecting your sovereignty is another legal ground to wag war.
>
> Being Kurdish is not reason enough to wage war.
>
> War is not genocide.
>Genocide is not killing people, it is a planned
> elimination of a race or ethnic group. Stop being thick. If you have another
> point to make, then do it.
> 3 Million Vietnamese, and how many did the Russian backed Vietnamese kill?
was defeated in spite of the murder of millions.
The rationale was the 'domino theory'. If Vietnam went communist
the rest of South East Asia would follow.
The architect of this theory and the war that U.S. Imperialism
launched in the vacum of French colonialist defeat was a man
named Macnamara, the ex-president of Ford Motor Company and
following the humiliation of the US defeat, president of the World Bank
whose
policies have cost the lives of millions more.
> That was a civil war that became a pawn in the cold war between Democracy
> and Communism.
and economic control of South East Asia.
Their plans for domination in the region were set back twenty
years by their defeat at the hands of a small nation.
>The war was morally wrong. However, cruel as the American
> military was, they did not commit genocide. Even if they killed every single
> North Vietnamese person, they still would not have committed genocide,
> because there would still be millions of Vietnamese.
The people of the world saw it as genocide. They held a war crimes
tribunal among other things, like the protest of tens of millions.
The U.S. was found guilty; and it is guilty today.
>
> Iraq is a hooligan state. The military dictator uses civilians as shields.
The U.S. is the parhia nation and is hated around the world.
Their adventurist policy of circumpolar world domination
is taking them to disaster.
> They placed their civilians in harms way by placing military installations
> in the midst of the population. Who really is the criminal? Again, there was
> no attempt to eliminate the Iraqi people. If the USA wanted to eliminate
> Iraq, and cared nothing about the civialian population, Iraq would not
> exist. America can eliminate any enemy it wishes. You know it and I >know it.
That is wishful thinking.
John Ross
John Lauzon wrote:
> I know what Heaven feels
> like and if I'm good, I might get there, I know Heaven is cheering me
> on...:)
>
If you are really a Christian you should know that being good does not get you
into Heaven.
Wes Whitlock
>So why is it than so difficult for you and others to expect from us that
>we also have a story to tell. The only difference is that we say
>something, people are saying; well this is Nazi talk and Anti-Semitic.
You know, Werner, you're right, but what is your story? I hope it's not
the one about how you "would fill your place of worship and send you all to
see your master. Go drop death, you misfit!!". This IS "Nazi-talk", I'm
afraid, and YOU said it.
I'm not one to hold a grudge and I certainly know what it's like to say
something out of character in a fit of temper. I'm willing to give you the
benefit of the doubt and say that perhaps you don't really wish me dead. Is
this the case?
There is too much evil in the world today to bother arguing about who
inherited the harder life. I (and presumably you) live a good life: no
snipers on the way to work, no bombs on the bus, no lynch mobs on the lawn,
no death squads in the night. I have plenty to eat, a nice home, loving
family and lots of friends. I have the luxury to sit and debate the finer
points of persecution, while millions of others are living (and dying) it
every day. Yes, life IS good, thank God.
No one group (ethnic, religious, racial, political or gender) has the
corner on the persecution market. Like you said, 'we all have a story to
tell', and as long as our stories do not promote hatred, we should tell
them.
Merry Christmas Werner.
Wes
allonzo
>
> Maybe I can help you out here.> No it's not.
Just a computer game:
'Genocide is a multiuser
war game (mud) that runs
at Sam Houston State
University in Huntsville,
Texas. The game is
connected to via the telnet
remote-terminal protocol;'
Words can be anything you may want them to be
but reality just will not go away.
E. Barry Bruyea
wrote:
>Wes Whitlock wrote:
>>
>> >So why is it than so difficult for you and others to expect from us that
>> >we also have a story to tell. The only difference is that we say
>> >something, people are saying; well this is Nazi talk and Anti-Semitic.
>>
>> You know, Werner, you're right, but what is your story? I hope it's not
>> the one about how you "would fill your place of worship and send you all to
>> see your master. Go drop death, you misfit!!". This IS "Nazi-talk", I'm
>> afraid, and YOU said it.
>
>There we go. It takes less time to become a Nazi than do be a lousy
>Christian. If it is so easy, there must be millions of new Nazis every
>day. Here is another story how you can get aids quickly without doing
>anything:
>
>Attention:
>"Medical Authorities have announced that aids can be contracted through
>the ears by listening to assholes." Christianity started out the same
>way. :-))))
>
>Perhaps I do all this things because God is testing me? Do not worry. I
>could repend and become a born again Christian.
>
>>
>> I'm not one to hold a grudge and I certainly know what it's like to say
>> something out of character in a fit of temper. I'm willing to give you the
>> benefit of the doubt and say that perhaps you don't really wish me dead. Is
>> this the case?
>>
>> There is too much evil in the world today to bother arguing about who
>> inherited the harder life. I (and presumably you) live a good life: no
>> snipers on the way to work, no bombs on the bus, no lynch mobs on the lawn,
>> no death squads in the night. I have plenty to eat, a nice home, loving
>> family and lots of friends. I have the luxury to sit and debate the finer
>> points of persecution, while millions of others are living (and dying) it
>> every day. Yes, life IS good, thank God.
>>
>> No one group (ethnic, religious, racial, political or gender) has the
>> corner on the persecution market. Like you said, 'we all have a story to
>> tell', and as long as our stories do not promote hatred, we should tell
>> them.
>>
>> Merry Christmas Werner.
>
>I do not celebrate Christmas.
I forget, Werner, which do you celebrate? Stalin's birthday?
Hitler's birthday? Or just Ernst Zundel, your domestic hero? Is
there a 'Self Pity" holiday that you observe?
>
>>
>> Wes
>
>Wes. It has been a pleasure to listen to you. You were honest in
>debating. Realizing that you can only hope to change my mind.
>
>What you most likely known all the time, you can only show younger
>people how to do things differently. As for myself, I have learned not
>to take everything for granted in live. I will always wait to judge how
>good that day was at the end of the day, thinking something could go
>wrong.
>
>Werner Knoll
>You have not converted a man because you have silenced him.
>Viscount Morley 1838 - 1923
Mrs. Savoie
allonzo <dubl...@tallships.istar.ca> wrote in message
news:365AFC89...@tallships.istar.ca...
John Lauzon
: Yeah, and this is Canada!
Where censorship rules supreme...:)
Here's what was censored...
Subject: Attacks on Focus on the Family & morals
THIS IS A MUST READ ESPECIALLY FOR ALL THOSE WHO ARE NOT INFORMED
ABOUT THE SPIN CONTROL OF THE MEDIA AND THE LIBERAL LEFT AND THE
HOMOSEXUAL MOVEMENT AND DON'T SEE CHRISTIAN PERSECUTION
November 1998
Dear Friends:
If you were listening to the Focus on the Family radio broadcast on
October 14-16, you are aware of the incredible attack on this
ministry launched by homosexual activists and their powerful friends
in the media. Never since our inception 21 years ago have we been so
viciously and unfairly criticized, the attacks focused not only on
our integrity but also on the integrity of Family Research Council,
the Christian Coalition, and Concerned Women for America. Soon, the
mainstream press began echoing these baseless charges, and by the
week's end, the story was being carried throughout the English
speaking world. I mentioned during my response on one of the
broadcasts that I might share this situation with our friends in my
next monthly letter. I am doing just that today.
Let me explain why it is important to understand what happened to us in
mid-October. For the past several years, the radical homosexual movement
has targeted those of us who believe in the principles of biblical
morality, the value of traditional marriage and the institution of the
family. This is why we were attacked last month simply because what we
believe is an impediment to their political goals. Focus has never
advocated violence or disrespect of homosexuals in any context (see policy
statement). This attack on us portends an era of oppression and
intolerance of all things Christian. If that seems overstated, I invite
you to read the transcript that follows. It carries meaning not only for
the several Christian ministries vilified, including our own, but perhaps
also for your own family.
For the most part, the following words were spoken on the air during
the first of the three programs. In a few instances, minor editing
was done to shorten the text or to clarify the imprecision of the
spoken language.
I hope you will read these comments and then let me know your own
views. (MT stands for Mike Trout; JCD for myself.) * * *
MT: We're going to deal with something very unfortunate that
happened on Monday's edition of the NBC "Today" show. Many of you
have been calling us about an interview that took place on that
program. Doctor, explain exactly what's going on.
JCD: Well, it concerns the discussion of that horrible murder of a
homosexual college student in Laramie, Wyoming named Matthew Shepard,
who was tied to a post last week, allegedly by two young men, and
then he was beaten unmercifully while begging for his life.1 It was a
terrible thing. Shepard died from his massive wounds Monday morning,
2 and the senseless brutality of that attack has shocked the nation.
We extend our deepest sympathies to the Shepard family on this very
tragic loss.
MT: That sad, sad event was the subject of the NBC news interview a
couple of days ago between one of the hosts of the "Today" show,
Katie Couric, and the Governor of Wyoming, Jim Geringer. That's what
we've been hearing from our listeners about.
JCD: That's right. During that interview, Couric addressed a
question to the Governor, which we now have on tape. That's what we
want to talk about today. This is what she asked of Gov. Geringer:
Couric's Recorded Words: "And finally, Governor, some gay rights
activists have said that some conservative political organizations,
like the Christian Coalition, the Family Research Council [FRC], and
'Focus on Family' are contributing to this anti-homosexual atmosphere
by having an ad campaign saying, 'If you are a homosexual, you can
change your orientation.' That prompts people to say, 'If I meet
someone who's homosexual, I'm going to take action and try to
convince them and try to harm them.' Do you believe that such groups
are contributing to this climate?"3
* * * *
Note: The next morning, the "Today" show returned to this subject and
addressed it in greater length. Couric asked this question of one of
her guests, Elizabeth Birch of the Human Rights Campaign: "Do you
believe this campaign this ad campaign launched by some
conservative groups really contributed somehow to Matthew Shepard's
death?"
Birch's reply: "I do, Katie. These kinds of violent acts and I've
got to tell you it will be a long time before anybody in the gay
community or anyone in this country forgets the image of this very
gentle young man strapped to a fence, burned and beaten and battered.
And he was much like almost like a trophy animal, strung up there
for 18 hours. And it's caused a great deal of sadness and grieving
and mourning in the gay community. And these kinds of crimes never
happen in a vacuum. They happen because people's minds have been
twisted with cruel stereotypes about gay and lesbian people. And this
ad campaign has been pumped out all summer presenting gay and lesbian
people as defective, as [being] less than [others], as not fully
human. And young Matthew Shepard made one mistake, and that's that he
happened to fall into the path of someone that had been fed this
rhetoric and [it] came at him full of rage and hate."4
Three days later, the print media adopted the campaign. Deborah
Mathis, of the Tribune Media Services, wrote a column that was
carried in newspapers throughout the nation. The headline in one of
them read: "Anti-Homosexual Crowd Aided In Murder Of Young Gay Man."5
After stating that the air was thick with guilt, Mathis went on to
liken conservative Christians to Nazi Germany and their gassing of
millions of Jews. All of this, mind you, was aimed at four Christian
family ministries having nothing whatsoever to do with the murder of
Matthew Shepard.
Let me share with you our written policy statement on violence
against homosexuals, which has been in effect for more than five
years. It reads:
In light of the increasingly volatile nature of the public debate on
homosexuality, Focus on the Family calls upon all Christians, and
indeed, all citizens to recognize that moral opposition is not a
license to engage in any form of slander, harassment or violence
against those with whom we disagree. Morally and legally speaking, a
crime against a homosexual is no less a crime against humanity, and
deserves to be punished to the full extent of the law.
>From the perspective of the biblical witness, which is of fundamental
importance for Focus on the Family, homosexuality is just one form in
which the brokenness of humanity reveals itself, along with greed,
hatred, fear, dishonesty and intemperance, to name a few. What people
with homosexual desires need above all else is the truth, compassion
and acceptance. Focus on the Family stands in solidarity with all
people against any form of evil, including prejudice, bigotry and
violence.
Given this emphatic position, there is no credible way to associate
this ministry with hatred toward homosexuals or any one else. Indeed,
there is no evidence that the two young men who are charged with this
crime have been influenced in any way by the organizations blamed.
Russell Henderson and Aaron McKinney are vicious thugs with prior
convictions. McKinney is a high school dropout awaiting sentencing
for burglarizing a Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant.6 He reportedly
has "a short temper and a willingness to brawl."7 After allegedly
killing Shepard, he proceeded to pick a fight with two Hispanics and
reportedly jumped from a car and assaulted one of the kids who were
simply walking down the street.8 The boys, 19 and 21, are dangerous
young men who, if they are found guilty of first degree murder,
deserve the death penalty.
But what in the name of decency does this tragic episode have to do
with us? Is anyone suggesting that the assailants have listened to
Focus on the Family? Are you kidding? Have they mentioned our
ministry or the names of our sister organizations? Is there evidence
that the ad referenced repeatedly by Katie Couric was read by the
killers? Of course not. In fact, the police say robbery was the
motive. 9
So tell me, Deborah Mathis, how can you equate the ministries you
libeled with the murderous regime of Adolf Hitler and his Nazi
henchmen?
Despite the lack of answers, the charges against us continue to
escalate. Jonathan Alter issued this attack in the October 26th issue
of Newsweek. Alter wrote: "Conservatives are in a pickle. They like
to say that ideas have consequences. Well, the consequences of
condemnation can turn out to be death.... But just as the white
racists created a climate for lynching blacks, just as hate radio
created a climate for militias, so the constant degrading of
homosexuals is exacting a toll in blood.... Discerning clergymen and
moralists can hate the sin and love the sinner; but by the time the
homophobic message reaches the angry guys sitting in the bar, that
distinction has been lost."10
NBC and the other participants in this attack owe us a retraction and
an apology. Instead, we are told that NBC executives are telling
callers that Katie Couric has talked to me personally and that we've
"worked out our differences." That is as false as NBC's other
statements about us. Until they come clean with the public, we are
asking our listeners and readers to continue to call or email NBC
(212-664-4249, To...@NBC.com), the Tribune Media Services, the
distributors of Mathis's column (1-800-245-6536, ddwilliams@tribune.
com, wmah...@tribune.com), and Newsweek (1-800-631-1040,
edi...@newsweek.com). For a list of other numbers, see our web site
at www.family.org.
BACK TO THE RADIO TEXT . . .
JCD: Tell me Mike, what other constituency or organization, other
than conservative Christians, could be implicated in a premeditated
murder without the accusers having to account for their charges? Can
you imagine a public figure like Couric blaming this bludgeoning of a
college student on Jews, or African-Americans, or American Indians,
or Chinese Americans, or the Chamber of Commerce, or veterans, or any
other classification of human beings? Never! There would be an outcry
in every newspaper in the country if that happened, and for good
reason. Nowhere else in this culture could such unsubstantiated
accusations be made with impunity, except against those who are
dedicated followers of Jesus Christ. I have to tell you that I am
deeply offended by what NBC News and other media outlets have said ...
because there were a number of them that did the same thing the last
couple of days.
MT: And all of us share that deep felt reaction. I know Gary Bauer
and Don Hodel have expressed similar outrage. Explain Couric's
mentioning of the ad placed by the other organizations. (Ironically,
Focus didn't even participate in the the ad!)
JCD: She was referring there to a media campaign that took place last
summer. It made the point that it is possible for some homosexuals to
come out of the gay lifestyle and into healthy heterosexual
relationships, including marriage in some cases. One of the people
featured in the ad was John Paulk, who is a member of our staff. A
picture of him and his wife Anne appeared on the cover of Newsweek on
August 17, 1998.11 By the way, John was just torn to shreds by the
media hounds for going public with his story, as though he didn't
have a right to tell his own experience. But they didn't want it
revealed.
MT: Yesterday, in fact, the Paulks received a death threat here at
Focus. So, you talk about hate we're seeing graphic evidence of it
here.
JCD: Homosexual activists then set about discrediting anyone
connected with that message of hope, because it's very threatening to
the homosexual community. They want nothing said that would encourage
a person to leave the homosexual lifestyle with the help of Jesus
Christ. That led to their claim, aided by Couric, that some people
reading that original ad were motivated by it to harm and kill
homosexuals, including that unfortunate student in Wyoming.
The ad itself is very loving and kind, and there is nothing in it
that even hints at coercion, ridicule, or anything that resembles
violence. It was written with great care and compassion. But the
"Today" show and the other media outlets that are making this case
apparently want people to believe that we are responsible for this
crime.
MT: What do you think as you listen to all of this and look at it, is
behind this campaign?
JCD: Well, I think it's very clearly an effort to discredit and
paralyze those who disagree with the homosexual political agenda,
Mike. The issue here is not hate-mongering from Christian
organizations because that hasn't happened. It certainly hasn't
happened here at Focus. Not in 21 years not once have we ever
made a statement that was derogatory or disrespectful toward any
person, including those with whom we disagree. Our regular listeners
know this is true. Of course, we speak out on the issues on which we
differ with homosexuals and others, and we have every right to do
that, just as they do in a free society. But we've never personalized
those debates, nor have we ridiculed or belittled anyone, and we
never will.
MT: That would be contrary to who we are at the very heart of this
ministry.
JCD: It would contradict Scripture and our love for the Lord, and
what we're here to do. Now, you'll notice that people such as Couric
never quote us or document their charges against us. Never do they
say, "On such-and-such a date, Dobson said this or that." Or, "Gary
Bauer wrote something hateful in a letter dated June of 1997," or
what have you. The reason they don't is because no such statements
have ever been made. They don't exist. In the absence of that kind of
evidence, however, they manufacture charges out of thin air. This
kind of rhetoric appears nearly almost every day in various
homosexual papers and even the mainstream press.
MT: You know, so much of this reminds me of what we have been hearing
and dealing with in Canada. Our name is being used across that
country in the same way in connection with this. Our staff up there
is having to deal with these issues. The United States appears likely
to go down the same path that Canada has taken.
JCD: That is a very good point, Mike. My major concern with the
proposed hate crimes legislation is that it will take us in that
direction. In Canada, certain portions of Scripture can no longer be
read on radio or television. If broadcasters chose to elaborate on
Romans 1, for example, or other Scriptures that address the subject
of homosexuality, they would be charged with unethical practices
because officials would interpret the comments as hateful. Focus
couldn't even cite certain medical information related to AIDS on a
recent broadcast because, again, it might have offended the
homosexual community. That's where I believe gay and lesbian
activists in this country want to take us.
MT: You know, I find it interesting that the gay and lesbian movement
claims to decry hateful rhetoric, and yet the comments they make
about conservative Christians is downright dishonest. You brought a
dramatic example with you. I think you ought to share it with the
listeners.
JCD: Mike, this example was entitled "Dr. Dobson's Skeleton in the
Closet."12 It claimed that I'm accepting money from the casino
industry in return for concealing my awareness that the gambling
machines are rigged. That is preposterous. There is not even a
scintilla of truth in it. The story was obviously designed to
discredit or embarrass me, or to wound Focus in some way. Similar
lies are being spread almost every day.
MT: And obviously, some people read that stuff and believe every word
of it. Here's a rather typical letter that came from a man in Los
Angeles, referring back to the Shepard murder:
"The beating in Wyoming demonstrates that the lunatic fringe has
taken license from your code words and intends to wreak violence upon
the gay community. The blood of this young man, who committed no
crime, is on your hands. You should be ashamed ...
"I want to put an end to the political influence of immoral
reprobates like yourself. I will not sit idly by and watch this
country go down the path of Afghanistan, Pakistan or Nazi Germany.
Hate is hate and it is wrong. Covering it with the cloak of religion
is even worse: you not only denigrate mankind, but also God. No
matter how much you try to disguise your anti-gay message as one of
'help,' the real truth is self-evident: you and your kind are immoral
hate-mongers."13
MT: One of our radio station managers passed along this letter to me
yesterday. The writer said:
"I blame you as an accessory to the crime of murder and torture in
the death of Matthew Shepard.... You carry that contemptuous program
'Focus on the Family' as well as others fomenting hatred...You all
are a bunch of sanctimonious snobs who do not know the meaning of
tolerance, love, and compassion. Jesus did not come to condemn, but
to save. You come to condemn, fomenting hatred.... May God be more
merciful on you than you were to Matthew Shepard."14
JCD: The level of hostility to Christians is growing, and it's
becoming more pronounced every day. Whenever anyone wants to transfer
the blame for any outrageous act, Christians more and more commonly
are the ones that get tagged.
Let's go back to January 27, 1998, when Monica Lewinsky and the
presidential affair hit the national news. We now know that Clinton
was caught red-handed in the midst of that seamy, sexual scandal with
a girl half his age. It looked for several days in January like he
would soon be out of office. But then the First Lady shows up on
what program, Mike?
MT: The "Today" show.
JCD: The "Today" show! And she categorically stated that she knew her
husband better than anyone, and that she knew he didn't do what
Monica had told Linda Tripp. Of course, Clinton allegedly admitted to
Monica that he had had hundreds of women through the years, and yet
we're supposed to believe that Hillary never heard or suspected any
of them. Be serious. Women are intuitive people. I've said many times
that if I ever had an affair, my wife would know it by that afternoon
because she could read it. She could pick it up. And anyone as bright
as Hillary surely knew about Gennifer Flowers, Paula Jones and many
others who have apparently meandered through their marriage.
Nevertheless, she marched down to the "Today" show in January to
blame the rumors, not on her husband whom we now know was not telling
the truth but on right-wing conspiracies. Let me read her words,
Mike. She said:
"... I do believe that this is a battle. I mean, look at the very
people who are involved in this. They have popped up in other
settings. This is, ' (and then she corrected herself) the great story
here for anyone willing to find it and write about it and explain it
is this vast right-wing conspiracy that has been conspiring against
my husband.'..."15
Now, Mike, when Hillary talked about a right-wing conspiracy, she was
using code words for those of us who come from a conservative
Christian perspective. We have become the whipping boy for liberals
and activists.
MT: And you're not the only one that feels this way. There are so
many other examples beyond the one you just gave.
JCD: The event that jumps out in my memory, Mike, goes back to April
19, 1995, when a bomb rocked Oklahoma City and killed 168 Americans,
16 many of them children. Unbelievably, the media and some
politicians immediately blamed that blast on people of faith,
especially those who fight for the unborn child.
MT: I remember that.
JCD: Michael Lind, who was a reporter for The Washington Post, blamed
that bomb before anybody knew any of the facts on those of us who
oppose abortion. He wrote, "The story of Oklahoma City and the
militias should not make us forget that the main form of political
terrorism in the United States today is perpetrated by right-wing
opponents of abortion."17Of course, when the killers were apprehended
and tried, Lind's statement was exposed as ridiculous.
Reporter Bruce Morton said, "What do you suppose the odds are that
when we finally know who did it, they will say, `Well, I was
following God's will.'?"18
Eleanor Clift, the ultra leftist reporter for Newsweek, said this:
"[The bombers] came from a loose cabal of gun extremists, religious
extremists ... and many of them act under the umbrella of religion,
so it's going to raise religious issues."19
There was never a scrap of evidence to link the bombing with the pro-
life cause, or with a religious movement of any stripe, or even with
political conservatives. Only Christians as a people could have been
tried and convicted by the liberal press in the absence of even the
most remote evidence or even the suggestion of complicity. That is
the same climate we're living in today, where Focus on the Family is
considered responsible for what two thugs allegedly did to a young
man in Wyoming.
Someone said the other day that we are moving from a post-Christian
era to a decidedly anti-Christian environment. A quick look around
will confirm it. A new Broadway play called Corpus Christi depicts
Jesus as a homosexual who has relations with his apostles and a brief
affair with Judas.20 The Disney Corporation is reportedly working on
a movie that will show a distant female relative of Jesus working in
an abortion clinic.21 It would take the rest of the day to summarize
what is happening along this line.
MT: Someone here at FOF made a list of hateful comments in the
mainstream press that have shown up in just the past few weeks, and
they include the words I've got them here in front of me
"religious nuts,"22 "big mule on the right,"23 "Godzilla of the right,
"24 "An Ayatollah."25 That might be me, I don't know. "Crazies,"26
that was quoted by Steven and Cokie Roberts. "A fanatic,"27 and
lastly, "He's a bit like creeping weeds in a wet spring."28
And then listen to this. This showed up after your stroke back in
June. This statement by Elizabeth Birch of the Human Rights Campaign
at a fundraising dinner just blows me away: "I don't know how much I
believe in acts of God, and I don't think we've seen the meteorites
or hurricanes that were predicted, but it is true that within 24
hours of Senator Lott's anti-gay comment, the head of Focus on the
Family suffered a stroke that hit his speech center and silenced him
for 12 hours. I think if ever I was looking for a sign from God, that
would be it."29
JCD: And these are the people who claim to be opposed to hate, Mike?
Can you imagine any of us at Focus making a statement like, this
gloating over someone being stricken with a stroke and being unable
to speak? That's awful.
MT: Well, you mentioned persecution a few moments ago. We are told in
Scripture to expect persecution. We know that Jesus promised there
would be tribulation. If we stand up for what is right, the rest of
the world won't always understand. How do you respond to that
expectation in the context of today's attack?
JCD: Well, if that's the explanation for what's happening to us, Mike,
then we will obviously accept it. We'll put ourselves in the hands
of the Lord, as we always have.
But it still grieves me, not because of any personal discomfort,
because I can deal with that, but because this great experiment in
democracy is in jeopardy. It has protected the vulnerable and the
powerless, providing a haven for oppressed people who had fled from
despots. I pray that the inspiration of the founding fathers who
created this wonderful system of self-government will not fade from
memory, and that we aren't descending into a long night of tyranny.
That is my concern, and it's an emotional reaction. Even though Jesus
said we should expect tribulation, I still have concerns for my
country.
To put our discussion in context, Mike, there's just so much more at
stake with regard to these issues than mere criticism of this
ministry. What hangs in the balance is nothing less than the Gospel
and the opportunities for it to flourish in our country. It is that
message that they want to silence.
MT: Well, we should continue to support one another in every way we
can, whether that's by speaking out aggressively, or praying, or
writing a letter, or defending the rights given to us in the
Constitution.
JCD: Mike, we also need to be in prayer for our nation at this time.
God is in control, and we must not become discouraged. That would be
a great mistake. The outcome is in His hands and He still hears and
answers prayer.
Mike, I'm also asking our listeners to be in prayer for this ministry
because the pressures on us at this time are pretty difficult to
handle, quite frankly. It would also help if people would write us.
This is an interactive broadcast where we need to hear from our
listeners. I would like to know what you think, positively or
negatively. Call us, write us, send email and faxes. Let us hear your
perspective.
This has been an important discussion today, and I may even take the
words that we have expressed and include them in my next monthly
letter. We'll have to wait and see, Mike...
* * * *
And that is what I have done. There have been several subsequent
episodes during this unpleasant period, but I won't subject you to
the details. All I can ask in conclusion is that our listeners
remember what I said there in the closing moments of the program
that it is not James Dobson and Focus on the Family who are in the
cross hairs of our critics. It is nothing less than the Judeo-
Christian ethic and its moral underpinnings of the culture. We must
work to prevent the redefinition of marriage, homosexual adoption,
gay and lesbian propaganda in the schools, and the acceptance of
homosexual and heterosexual immorality. If people of faith don't use
their influence in this struggle, there is little that Focus on the
Family, the Christian Coalition, the Family Research Council, and
Concerned Women for America can do to withstand it.
That's it for November. I'm sorry to have to share such disturbing
news here at Thanksgiving. One thing is certain: We are grateful for
your encouragement and partnership these past few weeks. Please
remember that this is the time of year when we really need your
financial support, too. Without your generosity at the end of the
year, we can't make it during the seven months when we typically run
a deficit. Let me express my heartfelt thanks in advance.
God's blessings to you and yours during the holiday season.
James C. Dobson, Ph.D President
P.S. I will conclude with a remarkable quote from the last Sunday
sermon given by Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., four days before his
tragic assassination. Dr. King said:
On some positions, cowardice asks the question, is it expedient? And
then expedience comes along and asks the question is it politic?
Vanity asks the question is it popular? Conscience asks the
question is it right? And there comes a time when one must take a
position that is neither safe, not polite, not popular but one must
take it because it's right.30
Endnotes:
1.Jim Hughes, "Beating Victim Begged for Life: Three Suspects Appear
in Court in Brutal Attack," Denver Post, October 10, 1998, p. A1. 2.
"Gay Student Dies in Beating," Associated Press, October 12, 1998. 3.
Interview of Wyoming Governor Jim Geringer by Katie Couric, "The
Today Show," October 12, 1998. 4.Interview with Janet Folger of the
Center for Reclaiming America and Elizabeth Birch of the Human Rights
Campaign Fund by Katie Couric, October 13, 1998. 5.Deborah Mathis,
"Anti-Homosexual Crowd Aided in Murder of Young Gay Man," Tribune
Media Services, October 15, 1998. 6.James Brooke, "Men Held in
Beating Lived on Fringes," The New York Times, October 16, 1998, p.
A16. 7.Ibid. 8.Ibid. 9.Ibid. 10.Jonathan Alter, "Trickle-Down Hate,"
Newsweek, October 26, 1998. 11.John Leland and Mark Miller, "Can Gays
'Convert'?" Newsweek, August 17, 1998, pp. 47-50. 12.Email from Fred
Bradford to GayForum, July 22, 1998. 13.Letter from Michael J.
Petrella to Dr. James Dobson, October 12, 1998. 14.Email from Jeff
Curtis to BBN Radio, October 12, 1998. 15.Interview of Hillary Rodham
Clinton by Matt Lauer, "The Today Show," January 27, 1998. 16.Hugh
Dellios, "Man Sought in Bombing Apprehended," Chicago Tribune, May 13,
1995, p. 1. 17.Michael Lind, "Understanding Oklahoma: Scofflaw
Conservatism: Beyond the Hyperbole, Ideas Have Consequences," Th
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Mrs. Savoie
exclusively Christian values. They are also prevelant in Jewish, Moslem,
Buddist, Hindu and other lesser religions.
Yet not everyone shares the same values. Since values are subjective and to
a great degree culturally influenced, no one set of values is correct or
proper.
One will either adopt, modify or reject the values of the society, culture
and subculture to which they belong. This is part of human conditioning.
The traditional institution of marriage is long dead. Yes, most heterosexual
people still marry, only thing is most marry more than once. This is not
traditional. Nearly half of couples are involved in common law marriages
which is also known as living together. Certainly the traditional marriage
you elude to has not been traditional for 40 years or more. And you are
ignorant of history. This traditional institution you mention only began
this millenia. So in the history of man traditional marrage is a rather
short lived thing, and was not the convention during Biblical times. Now
this is from real history and not Bible stories.
The traditional family is also a nolstalgic thought. One third of women
between 18-30 are single mothers. Half the families are not comprized of
both biological parents. Many children are born out of wedlock. A divorce is
as easy as buying a house.
So dear John, as you can see there is really not a traditional family or
marriage in modern society. Many of the people in these situations believe
and call themselves Christians. More, simpley are of different faith or
belief systems. Both these institutions have been completely devistated, and
what is totally amazing in all of this is we haven't even had to discuss
homosexuals. Obviously homosexuals have had practically nothing to do with
the abandonment of these outdated values.
I am not saying these values are right or wrong, just that they have fallen
from favor and are being replaced with a new set of values. This is part of
change and growth.
So you are defending a value system most people have rejected or abandoned.
And homosexuals have had nothing to do with this heterosexual behavior.
Now, as far a gays and family goes, have you met one yet that did not come
from a family? Many homosexuals have come from traditional families with
traditional marriages. Homosexuals cannot procreate with each other, but
they can procreate.
Why should they be denied their children because of your values?
They have studies homosexual marriages and have determined that a parents
sexual orientation will not have a bearing on the childs sexual orientation.
Their parents will not influence them to deviance. Homosexual parents are
just as discreate about sex as heterosexual parents. How many straight kids
have seen their parents have sex? Well the same is true for children of
homosexual parents.
All children need to grow up into happy well adjusted human beings is love
and security. Certainly homosexuals can love and provide a secure and stable
environment.
On the other foot, homosexual marriages in no way assault or place in danger
heterosexual marriages. I certainly would not want to visualize the concept,
since it is not for me. But just because it is not for me, should not mean
it is also not for them. I can only see it as an issue of greed. Yes
Christian greed. Perhaps the most prolific sin - greed. And this is how it
works.
I am single. I get taxed to death since I have virtually no tax shelter or
write-offs.
If I had a wife and children, I would be able to reduce my tax burden
significantly.
Sure my expenses would go up, but I would get more of my hard earned money
back in my pocket, instead of the governments coffers. Enter the homosexual.
Currently, though it is slowly changing, homosexual couples are taxed at the
same rate as singles, yet have the same financial obligations as couples and
families.
If the govenment gave all the same rights to gays as they give to straights
that enter marriage, then the cost of benefits will go up significantly,
since there are a lot of gays out there. So either everyone would get less,
or taxes will go up. And in there lies the greed and the real reason people
are against homosexual marriages.
If you really want to know why there is such a backlash against Christian
extremists, then I will tell you. We live in a society where everyone has
the right to conduct their life as they choose, as long as we do not harm
another doing so. It is a concept known as freedom. People value freedom
very highly. I would say that people actual value freedom higher than faith.
Strong words but true. Proven thus, there can be no faith if you are not
free to choose it. Even Jesus says it must be a choice. Even you had to
choose to let him into your life.
What ticks people off is that extreme Christians and evangilists do not
respect freedom or choice - unless it is the same as their view of it. And
they are relentless.
The fact is that you are Christian and you believe. But what you also belive
is that it is your calling to convert all the non-believers. But you cannot
make a person believe something that they do no believe. This annoys people.
Makes them frustrated, pissed them off, makes them mad, and it is
relentless.
You are a perfect example of this John. You are not posting for Christians
that believe as you do. You are posting to reach people that don't care, are
not interested, do not share your views and do not believe in Christianity.
You are preaching the gospel as a recruitment vehicle directed at people who
don't want to join.
In today's society most people are educated, are able to think critically,
and place more faith in the scientific method than in superstition. If you
follow the history of religion, you will see a very logical progression from
superstitious ritual to conventional religious rituals. from Animatism to
Catholocism. As a matter of fact the transition is so slow and clearly
defined, so that you can actually trace all religion back to simple, fearful
superstition.
These are to key foundations to religion - "fearful superstition".
It is not that I do not believe in God, but it is the nature of God that I
question.
Everytime I think I might be getting close, the trail always leads right
back to man.
The most insightful statement I ever heard was an inversion of creation.
"God was created in the image of man"
I thought about that long and hard, and for the first time, religion made
perfect sense. Oh, I still believe God exists, only now I am conviced that
God is his children.
This is why he is always present and in each and everyone of us. There is no
greater power in this universe than the power of man's imagination. It has
created everything that is not nature. And that is most his world.
The fact Christians have been around for 2000 years is no proof that their
belief is right. Jews have been around for over 5000 years. There faith has
lasted longer, so are they more right? I suppose Roman beliefs lasted 1,000
years and I bet they thought they were right. Moslems have been around as
long as Jews, and I bet they think their faith and beliefs are true and
right.
Now John, what am I going to think of you when you say they are actually all
misguided souls, and they are wrong and I will keep telling them, hoping
they will eventually see things my selfish way. And don't say it is not your
way - it is Jesus' way. You have adopted his way as yours. Oh, just which
way, because as you know not even Christians believe the same way. I mean is
it the Catholic, Anglican, Lutherian, Penticostle, Baptist, Mormon, or Greek
Orthodox way, just to name a few.
Why should I let you or anybody else interperet the Bible for me?
I would rather learn ancient greek than have you interperet anything more
than a stop sign. See Christians can't even agree on how to interperet the
Bible, and that keeps me wondering why is there a need to interperet the
Bible? Is it not supposed to be the word of God, written in the hand of man,
and has it not been translated into clear, easy reading english? You
interperet a language, you interperet the music through dance. You
interperet body language. You interpereta piece of modern art.
You do not under any circumstances interperet the word of God.
What kind of snake oil salesman are you to insinuate that there are hidden
secret messages from God burried in the Bible, hidden in the symbolism and
imagery, which is only detectable by the clergy, and other master
manipulators, yet not the common man or woman or child? And this Jesus
business is not settled. Not by a long shot. See the messiah is a Jewish
concept. The Jews do believe in a messiah.
They still believe in the messiah. They just don't believe Jesus was the
messiah.
See he didn't pass the messiah tests. But they keep that hush.
So I was figuring it will go down one of two ways. The messiah will come to
earth and the Christains will welcome him on his second coming. He will look
at them and say, but this is the first time I have come. Nah, pretty
unlikely. Rather it will happen like this...
The messiah comes down to earth. He has come with a message from the
father -for all of humanity, women included. It is new and different, but
since man has come so far, God feels we are ready. Well the christian
extremists get wind of this guy.
They flip! The messiah has said that God want a direct relationship with
each of his children. He said, you have out grown your need for
congregation. You are strong enough to stand on your own two feet and talk
with God. You are unique enough to develop your own special relationship
with God. Since God can be with all of you all at the same time, every
moment of every hour, in every state and dimension of existance, there is no
longer a need for the clergy or Churches or Mosques, or Synagogues, or
Temples, or Shrines. With the Internet and all, God has decided he needs to
be directly connected, and no longer requires the services of the middle
man.
Well they freak, and go ballistic. The coffers of the Ministries begin to
run dry.
They declare the Messiah the Anti-Christ and put out a high value contract
on her head. They pick the best Christian assassin, er, um warrior, and with
the squeeze of a trigger, bang, the daughter of God drops dead, holy blood
draining from her exposed crainial cavity. The world reels from the shock.
They lay her in state, one day, two day, three day, four days.....one
year....a decade. In the mean time nobody has heard from God. He just hasn't
droped in on anybody. He said he would.
John Lauzon <bk...@torfree.net> wrote in message
news:F322zB.BBH...@torfree.net...
appaloosa
Werner Knoll wrote in message <365764AB...@istar.ca>...
>Opposite North wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:16:59 -0800, Werner Knoll
>> <we...@istar.ca> posted:
>>
>> >GOD CAN DO EVERYTHING!
>> >Question?
>> >Can your God build a mountain so big that he cannot move this mountain?
>>
>> Can Hitler create a holocaust so great god can not stop?
>
>
>If there was a God, why did he not intervene?
>
>Werner Knoll
>"When a man is freed of religion, he has a better chance to live a
>normal and wholesome life."
>Sigmund Freud