Potential new owner of a CR38

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Pete Smith

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May 11, 2015, 10:33:10 PM5/11/15
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Hi.

The Admiral and I will be sending the signed contract to purchase "Calypso Poet" a 1987 Cabo Rico 38 to the broker tomorrow. Only thing between us and owning an amazing boat then is the survey and sea trail.

I have a couple of questions for the group.

Does anyone have any history for this boat? I believe she is hull #116. If there is any information we would appreciate it.
Also, I've read some posts where there is mention made of changes in the design or build process (e.g. going to Vinyl-ester layup in early 90's). Is there a time line of design or build changes available for the CR38's?

Lastly, she is powered with a Westerbeke 46 with about 3700 hours. Any serious concerns with this engine I should be worried about?

Thanks, and looking forward to joining the CR owners pretty soon

Pete & Karin

Clay

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May 12, 2015, 6:48:49 AM5/12/15
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Welcome Pete and Karin-

I think Terry D. or Mikey P. the purveyors of  this 'List' might be able to help you with your question on vessel history. Where do you all hail from?

Again welcome.

Clay
s/v Tango CR 34
Lankford Bay Marina
Chester River, Md.

Pete Smith

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May 12, 2015, 7:05:25 AM5/12/15
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Thanks for the welcome.

We are in Georgia, USA. We will keep the boat in South GA - probably Brunswick.

P&K

Clay

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May 12, 2015, 7:19:38 AM5/12/15
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Brunswick Landing marina?

N C

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May 12, 2015, 7:46:27 AM5/12/15
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Pete & Karin,

Welcome to the group and good luck with "Calypso Poet."

Cheers,
Nick
"Ronin"
CR38 #190


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davo

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May 12, 2015, 8:26:25 AM5/12/15
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Hi and welcome!

We are travelling around Australia in Venture, our 1986 CR 38 Hull number 106. 

The research I did prior to purchase indicated that they didn't start using the new Vinyl-ester layups until a few years later than our boat and we do have some blisters on the turn of the bilge.  You can see them reasonably clearly just after the wash down on slipping.  My original survey noted they were cosmetic and I've since had two other shipwrights say the same thing.

We have a couple of (minor but annoying) leaks level with the companionway steps on both port and stbd sides.  I'm pretty sure the scuppers are leaking (again nothing serious) and I'll fix that when we get a bit further north into the warm weather.

We also had the Westerbeke 46 engine with about the same number of hours!  We replaced it last month with a marinized Kubota 50Hp but not because it was failing..

The WB46 was running really well apart from a couple of issues.  When we first started it after sitting for a few days, it blew quite a bit of blue/grey smoke till it warmed up (valve seals I'm sure and not at all serious).  The main issue was was oil leaks from a number of different seals including the rear seal.  The oil ended up in the bilge and so we were generating oil slicks when the bilge pump went off (not a good look up in the Barrier Reef..).  To do the rear seal, I needed to get the engine out..

The story went, if we get the engine out we should probably get it reconned before putting it back in, price to recon was 2/3 of a new engine, Westerbekes are rare here so parts are expensive, bugger it, put a new one in..

We found storage to be an issue.  We sacrificed the shower in the end but we are now realising that we are carrying a lot more "stuff" than we actually need so we may get the shower back in the future anyway.  The shower in the cockpit is fine for our needs anyway.

Don't let any of the above put you off!   We love Venture and would not swap it for anything we've seen so far including 18 months looking seriously at boats and 18 months cruising.  Hmmmm, the admiral did like the look of a 46' Bayfield but that was only because it had an actual bath in there!..

Lots of luck and I hope it works out for you.

Dave and Terry
Living the Dream :-)
http://adventures-on-venture.blogspot.com.au/

Mickey Panayiotakis

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May 12, 2015, 8:43:30 AM5/12/15
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Hi Pete, welcome to the group. I'm afraid I dont't have much history on the specific boat, but I did spend a week or so in Brunswick a few years back. I may try and get there again "soon".

Dave & Terry are right re: VE resins and blisters—I think Cabo Rico started using VE resin around 1988. But blisters are generally cosmetic, and at any rate just chalk it up to more boat bills if you decide to fix :)

mickey


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Leslie.Owen

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May 12, 2015, 8:51:39 AM5/12/15
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Dave-

What's the mechanical diff. between a marinized  Kubuta engine and a Beta engine..which is a Kubuta engine?

Sent from my iPad
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Mickey Panayiotakis

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May 12, 2015, 9:02:17 AM5/12/15
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Leslie you're making me jealous with your Beta :(

Ron Acierno

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May 12, 2015, 9:05:06 AM5/12/15
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beta marine takes a Kubota tractor engine and 'fixes it up' for marine use by moving oil change fixtures to the front, etc.  they are loved here in the southeast, and a cheaper fix than yanmar, which is also loved here.  my w46 has about 2k hours with only one major problem: the injector pump started leaking at the high pressure exit ports. this was not a westerbeke part, and the culprit was low sulphur in newer diesels. otherwise, she seems to be a good motor, I've had no problems I could not fix.

Thierry Danz

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May 12, 2015, 9:05:44 AM5/12/15
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Pete,

Welcome to the group! I have no record of this boat's previous owner(s) ever being a member of this group or its Sailnet predecessor. From the Yachtworld listing she looks like a very nice and well maintained boat. Good thing that the cockpit sole was replaced. That is a known problem area in these boats. The backing plate of the Edson pedestal used to be mild steel and after a while would turn into solid rust. I'm sure that this was replaced, but check that.

I used to own hull no 113, also a 1987 model with a WB46. As Dave mentioned, they all smoke at start up. I used to run the engine at a fast idle until it warmed up. That will make the smoke disappear quickly. The deck scuppers are a bad design. It is a PVC tube glassed in through the bulwarks and they have a tendency to leak. 

Thierry Danz
CR42 # 12 CURLEW
Baltimore, MD

Clay

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May 12, 2015, 9:06:21 AM5/12/15
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No Mikey it's Clayton asking the question..was just wanted no the diff. between the two versions?  As we seriously considered a Beta.

Clay
S/V Tango

Sent from my iPad

Mickey Panayiotakis

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May 12, 2015, 9:07:51 AM5/12/15
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I'll probably switch to beta if/when I've had enough Perkins in my life :D For now I'm keeping the old blue beast.

Thierry Danz

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May 12, 2015, 9:08:09 AM5/12/15
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Nanni marine engines are also based on a Kubota block. Isn't the WB46 a Mitsubishi block?

Thierry

On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 9:06 AM, Clay <clay...@gmail.com> wrote:

Alex Tarlecky

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May 12, 2015, 9:39:11 AM5/12/15
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Hi Pete,

Welcome to the group and congratulations. We have Hull #117 so we were out the door right around the same time at you. We also have a W46 with about 3700 hours. 

Our engine has been very reliable with a few exceptions that would be reflective of any diesel engine. We do have oil leaks, mostly that have been fixed but its not a really serious issue as far as the running of the engine. Most folks I know of that have ongoing oil leaks in any type of cruising vessel usually just use bilge pads and keep putting oil in the engine every once in a while.

We had a compression test done on our engine and learned that when the boat was built there was a potential for water to backfill into the engine block and cause an issue with the last two cylinders. So westerbeke sent out a refit kit which consisted of a much taller water exhaust manifold. I was told this was actually a really good design because the extra length means the manifold will last must longer. Anyhow, the compression test did come up with compression issues that were wider than the specs allow for but we have not had any issues. 

Westerbeke parts are very expensive and before heading out across the ocean, we too would probably replace it with a Beta Marine engine. 

You got the low down on the scupper leaks. 

Also, ask the surveyor to make sure they check the pads under the bowsprit for rot.

We have a teak sole in the cockpit and some people have had problems with theirs, we have not. 

Other than that, the boat is very well built and any other issues you run into will simply be age related that would affect any older vessel.

- alex


On Monday, May 11, 2015 at 10:33:10 PM UTC-4, Pete Smith wrote:

Tom Fuhs

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May 12, 2015, 10:59:03 AM5/12/15
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Congratulations and welcome to the group Pete and Karin!

My wife and I own hull #115.  You've already got the rundown on some of the production methods and changes.  I believe newer boats also have lead ballast, rather than the cast iron that's in ours and Calypso Poet.  I read somewhere the change to lead occurred at around hull 140 or right about when they introduced the pilot house model.  The cast iron is a non issue in these boat.  In some "other" boats, a cast iron ballast could mean anything from steel punchings mixed with a slurry of concrete and poured in the keel, to filling the keel with pachinko balls (seriously), and pouring some resin over the top. I've even heard of yards finding typewriter parts in a keel beith repaired.  The CR has true iron castings, (7 of them if memory serves) set in the keel with a resin-sand slurry bedding them in place, then covered with many layers of fiberglass for the ballast cap.  There was a pretty big design change in 1983.  It's easy to recognize the difference.  The older boats have the engine a bit further forward and it's covered with a FG box which also serves as part of the companionway steps.  The older boats had easier engine access I think.  The newer boats are as you've seen on "Calypso Poet".  The older boats did not have the soft headliner either.  I think the soft headliner looks nicer, but it makes access to deck fitting hardware a bit of a headache.  There were a number of other changes/improvements.   The deck scuppers almost always leak.  There are various fixes which seem to work well.  We chose to glass in oversize FG tubes to accept 2" bright stainless steel thru-hulls.  We also have a W46.  Oil leaks seem to be the only issue and that is with any old diesel.  These older diesels were designed in a time before ULSD (Ultra Low Sulfur Diesel fuel).  The problem is not the low sulfur, it's that the process that removes the sulfur also removes much of the lubricity of the fuel.  There are some additives to address this (some are pretty cheap and seem to work well).  Google it and you'll find more than you ever wanted to know about ULSD, additives, fuel analysis, and HP diesel fuel pumps.  I'd have the engine surveyed.  Check compression and get an oil analysis. If the engine is running well and checks out, I'd keep it till it starts giving you problems.  They are based on a Mitsubishi 4dq5 engine.  It was used in a lot of industrial equipment (mostly forklifts) back in the late 80's and early 90's.  Parts are available, but can be a challenge as Alex can attest to.  There are a few of us here with the same engine of similar vintage, so source info sharing is a bonus.   Don't let any of this dissuade you.  These are *great* boats.  They are built well and have a stellar reputation.  ALL boats have some issues and their users' groups just tend to be an accumulation of them.  These are some of the most comfortable sailing boats out there.   They seem to just ghost along slicing through chop and have a very gentle motion.  And without question, they are one of the prettiest boats in any anchorage.  Best of luck!

Tom Fuhs
S/V Eclipse   
CR38 #115
Rock Hall Md.


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CaboR...@comcast.net

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May 12, 2015, 2:02:55 PM5/12/15
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Our 1984 Cabo Rico 38 "Alcyone" will be going on the market.  She's hull #87 and is in great condition for her age!  Full enclosure put on 5 years ago!

Must sell, owners have separated!  Reasonable offer accepted especially before it goes to the broker!

E-mail Ron at cabor...@comcast.net and Lisa at lprov...@sps.edu




From: "Pete Smith" <petes...@gmail.com>
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, May 11, 2015 10:33:10 PM
Subject: [caborico] Potential new owner of a CR38
Alcyone in Rockport (4).jpg
Alcyone in Port Clyde (3).jpg

davo

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May 13, 2015, 3:57:08 AM5/13/15
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Hi there..

I believe that Beta and Nanni are both based on a general purpose Kubota engine (used everywhere from tractors to generators) with a heat exchanger and raw water pump added.

We basically used a local engineer (John Witchard, WM Diesel) to do the marinizing rather than buy a Beta or a Nanni.  The base engine was a Kubota V2203-B.

We got quotes for a Beta and a Yanmah engines as well and they were both cheaper.  However, they both said that I would have to get a shipwright in to re-fashion the engine beds to suit the engine mounts.  In my opinion, this was pretty much impossible given the rear of the motor is basically in the bilge and the mounts are in the same plane as the main shaft of the motor. 

In contrast, John was quite happy to take the old engine and fashion mounting brackets to suit the current engine bed.  He also fashioned conversion linkage from the "pull" throttle in the pedestal to the "push" throttle used by the Kubota fuel pump!

ciao
dave

davo

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May 13, 2015, 4:11:54 AM5/13/15
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By the way, we also had some real strife with the exhaust riser on the old WB46.

The riser was big!  About 3 feet of cast iron pipe up to the raw water injector and it was attached to the flange on the alloy exhaust manifold/heat exchanger with a solid fitting.  We had to have the alloy flange welded twice in 2 years and it was previously welded just before we bought the boat!

If we hadn't replaced the motor, we would have fixed this permanently by moving the muffler down into the bilge (above the shaft seal) and using a much smaller up-and-over riser.

ciao
dave

On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 12:33:10 UTC+10, Pete Smith wrote:

Alex Tarlecky

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May 13, 2015, 10:25:29 PM5/13/15
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Tom,

Its my understanding that the change from iron occurred at hull #40 not 140.

- alex

Pete Smith

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May 13, 2015, 10:30:01 PM5/13/15
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Thanks everyone for the great response. I appreciate all the helpfull hints.
We are shooting for May 29th for the surveu and seatrial.

So far, I've added the following to the survey check-out list.
scupper leaks  (the first owner was apparently quite meticulous w7th maintenance and i did not see any leaks, so this might have been fixed)
Engine Oil leaks - i will do oil samples.
Gearbox concern? - anything other than oil samples that will tell me more about the condition of the box?
Check bowsprit pads for rot - Alex, can you expand a little on this please. Not sure I understand what pads you are talking about.
Exhaust riser - will be sure to check for any cracks at exhaust manifold.
I understand the steering quadrant was replaced on the boat. Any "known" reason why this was done?

The standing rigging on Callypso Poet was replaced in 2010, but not the chain plates. They were "inspected" and found to be good. Not sure if they can properly be inspected without taking them off, but that sounds like a bit of a nightmare. Ive read a post here about removing furniture to get to the bolts
. Is there a photograpghic record of this excersize if i ever need to do this?

Last question - how does she handle backing out of a slip? Major prop-walk?

Thanks again for all the help

P&K



On Monday, May 11, 2015 at 10:33:10 PM UTC-4, Pete Smith wrote:

davo

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May 14, 2015, 5:57:07 AM5/14/15
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Hi again..

Alex: It would be nice to clear up the lead/cast-iron ballast issue as I also thought they changed to lead quite early.

As for prop walk Pete, it will depend on what sort of prop you have..  We've got a 17" maxprop and prop walk is definitely noticeable but not huge..

You need to keep in mind that full keel boats with barn door rudders (like the CR38) do not steer well in reverse at all.  They also don't like turning tight to port in confined spaces due to prop walk which kicks the stern to port :-)

We had a problem just today turning left into a berth with gusty 10 to 20 knot wind blowing us off the finger (couldn't have been worse conditions..).  We ended up sitting against the boat next to us while we got a spring over a cleat.  Remember, it pays to put fenders out on both sides of the boat no matter which side you are docking on :-)

I'm sure everyone here will agree that you will need to get used to using spring lines to hold position at a berth while you get the other docking lines out and also springing off a berth when you leave.

If you can, always choose a finger where the wind is blowing you onto the berth and make turns to starboard in confined spaces if you get to choose :-)

Once you get used to it, you can turn the boat around in it's own length by turning to starboard and backing and filling and you'll find that prop walk is actually quite useful.

cya

dave





On Tuesday, 12 May 2015 12:33:10 UTC+10, Pete Smith wrote:

Clay

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May 14, 2015, 6:50:13 AM5/14/15
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At our marina, home of the Maryland School of Sailing, we constantly get a visual dose(both good and bad) of docking maneuvers with their IP 32's with the same engines (Yanmar 3GM30f)as ours. Don't know how those transmissions hold up to all that student abuse... :) But I have learned by watching their backing maneuvers in tight places..but then again they usually have 6 students onboard to assist in docking these boats...

Tom Fuhs

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May 14, 2015, 5:11:42 PM5/14/15
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Alex,  The "Hull 40" for the switch to lead gets repeated a lot on the web and in articles.  I think it started with one person forgetting to type the "1" in front of the "40", and then a bit of whisper down the lane.  Then I read this: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/caborico/ballast/caborico/AXxG56VCpQ0/hYjIhZofStoJ  If you read through the posts,  Robert quotes Fraser, and then Sharon supports the switch at the later hull number.  Personally, I'd be happy to find out Eclipse has lead, but not at all disappointed to know it's Iron.  From what I've seen, I'd be happier with a Cabo Rico with encapsulated iron than with any of a number of other boats with lead.  There's much to be said for good execution.

 --Tom

curtis hoffman

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May 14, 2015, 5:14:36 PM5/14/15
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 Put a fat magnet next to the keel? Or simpler yet a compass. 
Paul
      

Clay

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May 14, 2015, 5:21:55 PM5/14/15
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Why do you say that..? After watching IP at there Fla factory using (scrap) iron being encapsulated in their keels..I says to my self no way.. One of the reasons we went with a CR

Alex Tarlecky

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May 18, 2015, 3:45:43 PM5/18/15
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I defer to the group on the lead vs. iron keel.

Regarding the pads... if you look carefully you will see that the bowsprit sits on two pads about 1.25" above the deck. When I removed my sprit we found that wood inside the pads (as seen through the bolt holes) was powder. We made a temporary fix using injected epoxy but intend on cutting the pads off and redoing using something stronger, replacing the bowsprit, redesigning the bow pulpit, and completing a permanent fix before we attempt a pacific crossing. Besides that, our deck is dry and solid. Any other issues with the deck are sure to be isolated.

Honestly, the leaks are pretty darn minor issue. Everyone fixates on the leaks but its not a structural issue like you have with some vessels. They are fixable. 

Pete Smith

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May 22, 2015, 8:15:39 PM5/22/15
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Thanks. I will be sure to look at this during the survey.
Is there any indication that there is a problem - some movement in the sprit for instance, or is it a matter of removing the sprit to find out if there is a problem?

By the way - yesterday I received the fully executed contract back from the broker. Only a matter now of a successful survey... :)

Pete

Alex Tarlecky

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May 26, 2015, 11:57:57 AM5/26/15
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I'm not sure you can tell. On our boat I know the deck immediately below the step is in good shape as mine did not have the powder problem there when I examined it from below without the bolt holes. Also, my bolt holes were a little elongated so we filled them with thickened structural epoxy and redrilled.

I suggest you remove the bowsprit (not really that hard) when you can and check the steps.

Patrick Dayshaw

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May 26, 2015, 12:25:12 PM5/26/15
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Here are a couple of links to Dream Time (CR38 #40) bowsprit repair.
You'll need to hop around between the pages a bit but the problem is
pretty well explained and illustrated with pictures. Our CR38, #43 had
this issue resolved some years ago in a similar way to what Dream Time
did. It is a very common problem on the older boats.

http://www.zeroxte.com/journey/shipsblog_514.html Details under "Nose
Job" post.

http://www.zeroxte.com/journey/shipsblog_614.html Some additional
pictures under the Gold Investment post.

Patrick
S/V Silhouette

Tom Fuhs

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May 26, 2015, 2:00:55 PM5/26/15
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Patrick,
Did you have to cut off the forward portion of the fore-deck (as Dreamtime did) for the repair, or were you able to reinforce from below inside the chain locker?  I want to do this now, before we paint the deck, install a windlass, etc., and I'm hoping I can do it from below.

Tom
S/V Eclipse
CR38 #115

Patrick Dayshaw

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May 26, 2015, 4:36:59 PM5/26/15
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The forward portion of the deck was removed as the cored areas of the old deck was ruined. If yours is still in good shape then you might be able to get by without replacing the entire thing but I'd be very careful and make sure you have a solid foundation to build on. On Silhouette, a heavy all glass replacement section was installed. Also the old anchor roller assembly was eliminated and a new custom unit was built that wraps around the bowsprit and adds a lot of strength and support for it as well while still retaining room for two hooks. An extension was also added to the forward end of the crans iron so that a block can be carried forward of the pulpit to use for the tack of a asymmetrical spinnaker or similar sail. That was a great feature we used a lot while in the S. Pacific. Inside the bow area we have a heavy SS plate and bar that spans from gunwale to gunwale to stiffen the deck and carry the loads into the hull structure.

Patrick
S/V Silhouette

Tom Fuhs

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May 26, 2015, 4:59:40 PM5/26/15
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Thanks!  It seems you made the same modifications I've been thinking about, i.e. bowsprit saddle anchor roller and the crans iron extension.  Our boat never had a teak deck, so I'm hoping the core is in good shape up there.  We'll be digging into that project later this year, so I guess we'll see then. 

Tom
S/V Eclipse

Patrick Dayshaw

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May 26, 2015, 9:05:31 PM5/26/15
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Sorry, I neglected sending this link in my first message. The post at the bottom titled "Reunited" has additional pictures of  Dream Time's damage and repair.

http://www.zeroxte.com/journey/shipsblog_714.html

Patrick


On 5/26/15 11:00 AM, Tom Fuhs wrote:

petesown66

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May 26, 2015, 10:14:13 PM5/26/15
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Patrick

Thanks for posting the links. This will come in handy in the future

Pete




Sent from Samsung tablet.


-------- Original message --------
From: Patrick Dayshaw <svsilh...@gmail.com>
Date: 05/26/2015 12:25 PM (GMT-05:00)
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] Re: Potential new owner of a CR38

Here are a couple of links to Dream Time (CR38 #40) bowsprit repair.
You'll need to hop around between the pages a bit but the problem is
pretty well explained and illustrated with pictures. Our CR38, #43 had
this issue resolved some years ago in a similar way to what Dream Time
did. It is a very common problem on the older boats.

http://www.zeroxte.com/journey/shipsblog_514.html Details under "Nose
Job" post.

http://www.zeroxte.com/journey/shipsblog_614.html Some additional
pictures under the Gold Investment post.

Patrick
S/V Silhouette

On 5/26/15 8:57 AM, Alex Tarlecky wrote:
> I'm not sure you can tell. On our boat I know the deck immediately
> below the step is in good shape as mine did not have the powder
> problem there when I examined it from below without the bolt holes.
> Also, my bolt holes were a little elongated so we filled them with
> thickened structural epoxy and redrilled.
>
> I suggest you remove the bowsprit (not really that hard) when you can
> and check the steps.
>

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May 27, 2015, 9:13:28 AM5/27/15
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WOW nice work. I will check the backing plate on the forward pad. I repaired the back pad as you did but the front pad looked fine so I let it be.
 
In a message dated 5/26/2015 9:05:31 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, svsilh...@gmail.com writes:
Sorry, I neglected sending this link in my first message. The post at the bottom titled "Reunited" has additional pictures of  Dream Time's damage and repair.

http://www.zeroxte.com/journey/shipsblog_714.html

Patrick

On 5/26/15 11:00 AM, Tom Fuhs wrote:
Patrick,
Did you have to cut off the forward portion of the fore-deck (as Dreamtime did) for the repair, or were you able to reinforce from below inside the chain locker?  I want to do this now, before we paint the deck, install a windlass, etc., and I'm hoping I can do it from below.

Tom
S/V Eclipse
CR38 #115
On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 12:25 PM, Patrick Dayshaw <svsilh...@gmail.com> wrote:
Here are a couple of links to Dream Time (CR38 #40) bowsprit repair. You'll need to hop around between the pages a bit but the problem is pretty well explained and illustrated with pictures. Our CR38, #43 had this issue resolved some years ago in a similar way to what Dream Time did. It is a very common problem on the older boats.

http://www.zeroxte.com/journey/shipsblog_514.html Details under "Nose Job" post.

http://www.zeroxte.com/journey/shipsblog_614.html Some additional pictures under the Gold Investment post.

Patrick
S/V Silhouette

On 5/26/15 8:57 AM, Alex Tarlecky wrote:
I'm not sure you can tell. On our boat I know the deck immediately below the step is in good shape as mine did not have the powder problem there when I examined it from below without the bolt holes. Also, my bolt holes were a little elongated so we filled them with thickened structural epoxy and redrilled.

I suggest you remove the bowsprit (not really that hard) when you can and check the steps.

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Alex Tarlecky

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May 31, 2015, 1:01:41 PM5/31/15
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Patrick,

I would love to see some picture details of your bowsprit!

- alex
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