Seeking designer or engineer involved in building CRs

[Chuck Batson]

Hey guys, I'd like to speak with (and quite possibly hire for a few small projects) a designer or engineer who was involved in building the CRs, or perhaps someone similarly capable who might have some knowledge of the vessels.

Ideally I am wanting to learn the design tolerances of certain things, like forces at which the attachment of winches and cleats on the vessel will fail.  This will help me figure out things like, what's the best tensile strength for a main halyard that will handle the expected loads under sail and yet part before ripping the winch off the vessel, and whether or not the aft cleats will be sufficient attachment points for a Jordan series drogue.

I have a couple engineering bones in my body.  :-)

Anyways, I know that sadly Mr. Crealock is no longer with us.  Does anyone here have any thoughts on how I might find such an individual?

Thanks so much for your help.

Chuck

CR34 hull #34

San Rafael, CA

[Alex Tarlecky]

Hi,

You can reach Robert Perry at:

BobHPerry@*****.com 

The **** is google mail.

He should be able to help you if you really want to know. However, all the lines and such have recommended line sizes from the manufacturer. What specifically do you want to know?

- alex

[Ron Acierno]

Run the drogue to the winches, through the eyes for the cleats. But not to the cleats. But you shouldn't be running with the storm. You should be hove to, forereaching, or setting to a sea anchor and let the storm pass over you according to the Lynn and larry pardey data. Only run in a boat that can surf with a helmsman that can surf her. For 12 hours. In the dark. For a full keel cutter, you go the other direction with the bow off the waves slightly. Pardey sampling data by boat type pretty conclusive. 

 Lives!

Sent from my iPhone

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[Alex Tarlecky]

You may want to read books by Fatty Goodlander. He is my favorite sailing author right now.

http://www.fattygoodlander.com/buy_a_book

[N C]

Alex,

Great reading list, thanks for sharing it.

Cheers,

Nick 

[Chuck Batson]

Great stuff, thank you both for the input!

Alex - Thanks for the email address AND pointing me to Fatty. I'll definitely be checking out his books. So yes, rope manufacturers have their recommendations based on vessel length. For a given diameter of rope, there's all kinds of materials (and associated tensile strengths) to choose from. But I don't necessarily want the absolute strongest, since the cabintop halyard winch could then be the failure point. I want to know how to know what's right for my vessel. It's perhaps overkill, though the engineer in me will feel warm and fuzzy knowing I've "run the numbers."  :-)

Ron - It's quite possible the jib sheet winches are strong enough for the loads involved. In that case I'd still like to have done my homework and somewhat methodically validated that assumption. Also, if it's at all practical, my preference would be to have the series drogue "permanently" attached during passages so that in can be deployed as quickly and easily as possible, since by definition it's going to be needed in challenging conditions.

Here's some additional interesting reading for folks who are so inclined:

• USCG Report No. CG-D-20-87: Investigation of the Use of Drogues to Improve the Safety of Sailing Yachts by Carol L. Hervey and Donald J. Jordan: http://www.oceanbrake.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/CG-D-20-87.pdf
  
• Structural Requirements for Series Drogue Attachments by Donald J. Jordan: http://seriesdrogue.com/designersnotes/designersnotes2.html
  
• Victor Shane's Drage Device Database: http://dragdevicedb.com - a collection of reports of uses of drag devices (drogues, sea anchors, trailing warps, etc.) on various vessels
• Computational Fluid Dynamic Study of Heaving-to by David Hickerson: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.977.2267&rep=rep1&type=pdf - research using simulation on the effect of hull and keel on waves; doesn't cover breaking waves but is an encouraging start into formal analysis
  

Best,

Chuck

[Ron Acierno]

well, the winches will be far stronger than the cleats, as a matter of course. but i really think you want to read 

Storm Tactics Handbook, 3rd Edition by lin and larry parody at https://www.westmarine.com/buy/paradise-cay--storm-tactics-handbook-3rd-edition--10597730?cm_mmc=PS-_-Google-_-GSC%2520-%2520Product%2520Type-_-10597730&product_id=10597730&adpos=1o2&creative=108421552204&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CJTMjeWHu9QCFUE9gQod6dMIDg for 6 bucks.

i bought a drogue before i read it, and so was invested to disagree. their reasoning and data are hard to find fault.  if you were in a j42 or a j109, i would agree with a drogue, but they make a good argument against in even that context.  in a cabo rico, it seems from their perspective there is absolutely no question.  

 

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[LB Home]

Sometimes it is not good to over think things.

Larry

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[S/V Oceanghost]

Ive had my CR 38 in some pretty serious weather. I have never considered running before the storm. The loads and work hardening when streaming a drouge is tremendous. Keep in mind, even with a drouge a breaking wave will still break over your stern no matter how fast or slow your going. The cabo will heave to great with the right sail plan. Over 50 knots you need a trisail without the storm jib.. The Cabo loves to for-reach too. keep that in mind. The cut away forfoot allows the bow to blow to leward unlike the double enders. with that being said I would consider a para anchor.  Just dont get hung in the prop...

On Tuesday, June 13, 2017 at 8:10:16 AM UTC+4:30, Chuck Batson wrote:

Hey guys, I'd like to speak with (and quite possibly hire for a few small projects) a designer or engineer who was involved in building the CRs, or perhaps someone similarly capable who might have some knowledge of the vessels.

Ideally I am wanting to learn the design tolerances of certain things, like forces at which the attachment of winches and cleats on the vessel will fail.  This will help me figure out things like, what's the best tensile strength for a main halyard that will handle the expected loads under sail and yet part before ripping the winch off the vessel, and whether or not the aft cleats will be sufficient attachment points for a Jordan series drogue.

Icouple engineering bones in my body.  :-)

[Ron Acierno]

has anyone run before a storm on this list? given the way her ass kicks left and right running down a  5-8' swell i'd be exhausted after an hour. like surfing a hippo i would say.

[Cab...@aol.com]

At one time I found the design loads for the shrouds, don't remember where, could have been from the designer. Crelock???

 

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[Cab...@aol.com]

He gave me the loadings for the shrouds some time back, someone may have picked up his work?? He may have an old office number. Also do you know the J,I, P of your 34, I need that info, Thanks??

 

In a message dated 6/12/2017 11:40:18 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cbat...@gmail.com writes:

Hey guys, I'd like to speak with (and quite possibly hire for a few small projects) a designer or engineer who was involved in building the CRs, or perhaps someone similarly capable who might have some knowledge of the vessels.

Ideally I am wanting to learn the design tolerances of certain things, like forces at which the attachment of winches and cleats on the vessel will fail.  This will help me figure out things like, what's the best tensile strength for a main halyard that will handle the expected loads under sail and yet part before ripping the winch off the vessel, and whether or not the aft cleats will be sufficient attachment points for a Jordan series drogue.

I have a couple engineering bones in my body.  :-)

Anyways, I know that sadly Mr. Crealock is no longer with us.  Does anyone here have any thoughts on how I might find such an individual?

Thanks so much for your help.

Chuck

CR34 hull #34

San Rafael, CA

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[Cab...@aol.com]

No you don't want the strongest line. Low stretch line for halyards/reefing, Easy and soft on your hands line for the sheets with plenty of stretch to absorb shock, especially on spinnakers. If you have so much stress on a line to have it break or pull something loose; you have failed to reef, or furl. The boat is strength designed (if you have the proper shrouds) to do 360's. Just use the size line with working loads that are recommended for the boat.

 

In a message dated 6/13/2017 10:40:14 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, cbat...@gmail.com writes:

Great stuff, thank you both for the input!

Alex - Thanks for the email address AND pointing me to Fatty. I'll definitely be checking out his books. So yes, rope manufacturers have their recommendations based on vessel length. For a given diameter of rope, there's all kinds of materials (and associated tensile strengths) to choose from. But I don't necessarily want the absolute strongest, since the cabintop halyard winch could then be the failure point. I want to know how to know what's right for my vessel. It's perhaps overkill, though the engineer in me will feel warm and fuzzy knowing I've "run the numbers."  :-)

Ron - It's quite possible the jib sheet winches are strong enough for the loads involved. In that case I'd still like to have done my homework and somewhat methodically validated that assumption. Also, if it's at all practical, my preference would be to have the series drogue "permanently" attached during passages so that in can be deployed as quickly and easily as possible, since by definition it's going to be needed in challenging conditions.

Here's some additional interesting reading for folks who are so inclined:

• USCG Report No. CG-D-20-87: Investigation of the Use of Drogues to Improve the Safety of Sailing Yachts by Carol L. Hervey and Donald J. Jordan: http://www.oceanbrake.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/CG-D-20-87.pdf
  
• Structural Requirements for Series Drogue Attachments by Donald J. Jordan: http://seriesdrogue.com/designersnotes/designersnotes2.html
  
• Victor Shane's Drage Device Database: http://dragdevicedb.com - a collection of reports of uses of drag devices (drogues, sea anchors, trailing warps, etc.) on various vessels
• Computational Fluid Dynamic Study of Heaving-to by David Hickerson: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.977.2267&rep=rep1&type=pdf - research using simulation on the effect of hull and keel on waves; doesn't cover breaking waves but is an encouraging start into formal analysis
  

Best,

Chuck

[cab...@aol.com]

I need to get the info fro the I and J dimensions for a Cabo Rico 34. Thanks for the help.

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

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[Chuck Batson]

Hi Breck, I've estimated I = 471 inches and J = 197 inches on my CR34. Sorry I don't have an actual measurement at this time. Hope that's helpful.

Chuck

[Dave Newberg]

Here is what I got from somewhere — have not confirmed it.