Re: [caborico] Re: Rudder Bearings for CR38

[Cab...@aol.com]

Not sure all the boats have the same rudder set up. I have removed my rudder before. You take off all the steering gear, then remove the shoe the rudder sits in, then the rudder falls out and it is heavy. You will need a few people to help ease it down. I don't think there is anything limiting the upward motion of the rudder except the 1"clearance between the rudder and the hull??? Mine slides through a bronze bearing; which has a plate which you can tighten down with 3 or 4 bolts that squeezes on the packing to keep the water out.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 1/16/2014 5:45:46 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, steve....@gmail.com writes:

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this group. My wife and I have a CR38 in Wales, #93, built in 1984.  I wondered if any of you who posted on the topic of rudder bearings have ever removed the bearing?  I noticed that Alex Tarlecky had posted a question about this, but I have not found any clear answers. There is nothing wrong with the bearing itself, but water is weeping around the edges of the bearing tube (not through the packing gland up the inside). I guess we have to remove the tube and reseal it, so I wonder if any of you has ever done that? I am guessing there has to be an end-stop on the rudder stock preventing the rudder from rising up and hitting the bottom of the boat, so I guess that must be located at the top of the stock as it passes through the bottom of the boat, hidden from view because it is in the hole which can be seen on the outside where the rudder stock passes through. If that is the case, I guess the tube has a shoulder on the bottom, so it would have to be removed downwards?

Any help or advice would be fantastic. Many thanks

Steve Moss

On Tuesday, 12 November 2013 14:53:27 UTC, Alex Tarlecky wrote:

Continuing in the same line of discussion in another thread... does anyone know the rudder bearings needed for the CR38? Anyone have pictures of them being replaced?

This is on our list for next year.

Thanks,

Alex

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[S/V Silhouette]

Had my rudder out last year while in New Zealand. Mine came out in a
manner similar to what way Breck described but my packing gland is a
different style than his.

I removed the quadrant, removed the packing gland nuts, removed the shoe
and after some effort the rudder dropped out. My rudder was a bit
difficult to get out as there were deposits on the shaft just below the
packing gland area that interfered with the shaft passing through the
bearing area. I had to clean that area, which was hard to access and
then work the rudder back and forth and up and down a few times before
it would come out. The liberal use of PB Blaster as a lubricant also
helped. On removal the deposits seemed to just be minerals from the
seawater and they came off easily with fine wet & dry abrasive paper but
they still kept the rudder from coming out easily despite its weight.
The shaft to bearing is a close fit. I found some minor pitting in the
area where the packing presses against the shaft. After careful cleaning
I used epoxy with colloidal silica to fill that in and then polished the
shaft with 600 grit wet and dry paper before reinstalling the rudder. I
also used 400/600 grit wet & dry to clean up and polish the inside of
the bearing area and applied a little waterproof grease before
reinstalling.

BTW, the difference between my installation and Breck's is that my
packing is the double nut variety rather than the plate type. Based on
the markings my bearing/packing assembly is a Buck Algonquin.

To remove the rudder I rigged a cargo strap with a line each end. That
combination ran from the gunwale down across the bottom of the rudder
and back up through a couple of snatch blocks to a winch. I tightened
the line until the rudder was supported enough to easily remove the
bolts holding the shoe in place and then just eased it off to lower the
rudder. The line technique worked fine on the way out but wasn't precise
enough to allow aligning the shaft on the way in so I used a car scissor
jack for the return trip. I set up two stacks of blocking one on the
forward and the other on the aft end with the jack between them. The
rudder shaft barely cleared the hull with the rudder vertical. The jack
allowed us to ease the rudder back in place and it went in easily. BTW,
the rudder goes in at an angle rather than vertically in relation to the
ground so the blocking/jack had to be set up to accommodate that issue.
I had extra blocking and wedges handy so that the rudder was always well
supported. It was actually easier to do than describe but due care is
required as these rudders are very heavy.

I used new bolts for the SS shoe as the old ones weren't in great shape.
While I had access I cleaned up the threads for the packing nuts and
made sure they operated smoothly. I used new Teflon packing material on
reassembly.

BTW, I had my rudder out so I could open it up and inspect the interior.
I found the welds and foam in good shape and very little water on the
inside. I did however find some cracking in the glass around the shaft
at both ends. I repaired those areas using the technique outlined in
West Systems Epoxy Works magazine here:
(http://www.epoxyworks.com/12/rudder.html) The original glass build up
was mostly filler and not much glass-fiber for strength. I fixed that
problem and the layup is now much stronger that what the factory did.

If you have any questions let me know.

Patrick
S/V Silhouette
CR38, #43
Currently moored Hilo, HI

[S/V Silhouette]

Steve,

A follow-up to my last post. Sorry, I meant to add that I know I didn't
answer your main question about removing the bearing proper but I
thought perhaps the rudder removal description would be of use anyway
since that will be part of your repair process.

Patrick

[Steve Moss]

Hi Breck,

Many thanks.  I think I have seen reports from you before, because I know that our CR does not have a plate with 3 bolts.  If it did, it wouldn't matter whether the water came from outside the rubber bearing.  My problem is that I think we need to REMOVE the bearing itself in order to reseal it.  That's why I'm hoping someone knows exactly how it is constructed.

Steve Moss

[Norris Y. Palmer]

Is it a harken wet bearing?

 

Is it a dry bearing?

 

From the Salish Sea

48° 34.099 ° North

123° 10.456 ° West

Norris & Karen Palmer

360-378-9500

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Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3681/7008 - Release Date: 01/16/14

[Steve Moss]

Hi Norris & Karen,

No, it is a bronze tube plain bearing with a compression gland at the top.  Thanks for asking.  I think I have seen posts from you before on this topic, so I know you have knowledge in this area.

Best wishes

Steve

[Cab...@aol.com]

I have been thinking of rebuilding my rudder, new plate and foam. How did you open it up and then reattach the shell?  I also used my cars jack to put the rudder back in. Funny huh?

 

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

[Cab...@aol.com]

To repack under the plate, I did as your man did. Unscrew the bolts, raise the plate, pull out the old packing, put in the new packing, put the plate back on, put the bolts in and tighten it. The longest part of the job was going to fins the right size packing. I am for the easiest way to fix something. His set up I am thinking is similar to the Shaft log, with the same type gland. Where the bearing is like the log and is leaking similar to if you had a leak at the stern of your boat where the outside of the log is in contact with the boat. When installing the tail piece you use 5200 to seal it as you tighten it down against the stern. The Buck Algonquin packing gland probably is not tightened up against anything. Best I can think of to do is from above use Creeping Crack filler between the bearing and the hull, clean it up good and put a bead of 5200 around it or fiberglass it.  I would have to see some close up pictures of how it comes up through the stern to be more helpful. 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 1/16/2014 1:47:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 4pa...@centurytel.net writes:

Is it the same as a Northeast 400?

Mine was leaking a steady leak.

It is a harken wet bearings with a manufactured packing and cover.

I took it in and they were going to have to drop the entire thing at great cost.

The mechanic got in there and noticed the wonderful room down there and improvised a tool to take off the plastic cover, repack the shaft, put it back together for around $400 in labor as opposed to many more bucks by taking all of the autopilot stuff off…

Another member came up with some kind of cover but that requires taking the post off which really you want to avoid unless you have someone else do it.

 

I am all for doing everything you can on your own if you have the right tools, but there is a certain piece of mind that goes with items that are at or below the water line being done by a professional and sea trialed by a professional with a warranty by a professional and paid like a professional.  They don’t charge all that money because they don’t stand by their work.

 

I am speaking of real Marine Centers…this one was Cap Sante in Anacortes…$12,000 bucks later.

 

From the Salish Sea

48° 34.099 ° North

123° 10.456 ° West

Norris & Karen Palmer

360-378-9500

 

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Moss
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 2:46 AM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [caborico] Re: Rudder Bearings for CR38

 

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this group. My wife and I have a CR38 in Wales, #93, built in 1984.  I wondered if any of you who posted on the topic of rudder bearings have ever removed the bearing?  I noticed that Alex Tarlecky had posted a question about this, but I have not found any clear answers. There is nothing wrong with the bearing itself, but water is weeping around the edges of the bearing tube (not through the packing gland up the inside). I guess we have to remove the tube and reseal it, so I wonder if any of you has ever done that? I am guessing there has to be an end-stop on the rudder stock preventing the rudder from rising up and hitting the bottom of the boat, so I guess that must be located at the top of the stock as it passes through the bottom of the boat, hidden from view because it is in the hole which can be seen on the outside where the rudder stock passes through. If that is the case, I guess the tube has a shoulder on the bottom, so it would have to be removed downwards?

Any help or advice would be fantastic. Many thanks

Steve Moss

On Tuesday, 12 November 2013 14:53:27 UTC, Alex Tarlecky wrote:

Continuing in the same line of discussion in another thread... does anyone know the rudder bearings needed for the CR38? Anyone have pictures of them being replaced?

 

This is on our list for next year.

 

Thanks,

 

Alex

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[Thierry Danz]

Steve,

There are design drawings for the rudder and other material that you can access via www.croa.us.

Thierry
CR42#12

[Norris Y. Palmer]

Hey,

 

How come we cant expand this site and contribute a couple of bucks…

 

Put all the owners with pics and history of their boats first of all.

 

There is a ton of software out there that lets people do their own thing in club memberships on the web.

 

 

 

From the Salish Sea

48° 34.099 ° North

123° 10.456 ° West

Norris & Karen Palmer

360-378-9500

 

Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3681/7009 - Release Date: 01/16/14

[Norris Y. Palmer]

I cannot believe the article on the Northeast 400

 

Man, am I lucky!

 

From the Salish Sea

48° 34.099 ° North

123° 10.456 ° West

Norris & Karen Palmer

360-378-9500

 

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Thierry Danz

Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 7:21 PM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com

[Norris Y. Palmer]

Thank you but its all from cut fingers….

[Cab...@aol.com]

Thanks, I would like to know from those that have done it how you took the rudder apart, refilled it with foam, and glassed it back together. Pictures would be great) I have a shop that can take my rudder round stock and weld on a new web made of a special stainless steel?(forgot what they called it), Thanks

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 1/16/2014 10:20:43 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, tdan...@gmail.com writes:

Steve,

There are design drawings for the rudder and other material that you can access via www.croa.us.

Thierry
CR34#12

On Jan 16, 2014 8:10 PM, <Cab...@aol.com> wrote:

To repack under the plate, I did as your man did. Unscrew the bolts, raise the plate, pull out the old packing, put in the new packing, put the plate back on, put the bolts in and tighten it. The longest part of the job was going to fins the right size packing. I am for the easiest way to fix something. His set up I am thinking is similar to the Shaft log, with the same type gland. Where the bearing is like the log and is leaking similar to if you had a leak at the stern of your boat where the outside of the log is in contact with the boat. When installing the tail piece you use 5200 to seal it as you tighten it down against the stern. The Buck Algonquin packing gland probably is not tightened up against anything. Best I can think of to do is from above use Creeping Crack filler between the bearing and the hull, clean it up good and put a bead of 5200 around it or fiberglass it.  I would have to see some close up pictures of how it comes up through the stern to be more helpful. 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 1/16/2014 1:47:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 4pa...@centurytel.net writes:

Is it the same as a Northeast 400?

Mine was leaking a steady leak.

It is a harken wet bearings with a manufactured packing and cover.

I took it in and they were going to have to drop the entire thing at great cost.

The mechanic got in there and noticed the wonderful room down there and improvised a tool to take off the plastic cover, repack the shaft, put it back together for around $400 in labor as opposed to many more bucks by taking all of the autopilot stuff off…

Another member came up with some kind of cover but that requires taking the post off which really you want to avoid unless you have someone else do it.

 

I am all for doing everything you can on your own if you have the right tools, but there is a certain piece of mind that goes with items that are at or below the water line being done by a professional and sea trailed by a professional with a warranty by a professional and paid like a professional.  They don't charge all that money because they don't stand by their work.

 

I am speaking of real Marine Centers…this one was Cap Sainte in Anchorites…$12,000 bucks later.

 

From the Smallish Sea

48° 34.099 ° North

123° 10.456 ° West

Norris & Karen Palmer

360-378-9500

 

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Moss

Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 2:46 AM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [caborico] Re: Rudder Bearings for CR38

 

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this group. My wife and I have a CR38 in Wales, #93, built in 1984.  I wondered if any of you who posted on the topic of rudder bearings have ever removed the bearing?  I noticed that Alex Aleck had posted a question about this, but I have not found any clear answers. There is nothing wrong with the bearing itself, but water is weeping around the edges of the bearing tube (not through the packing gland up the inside). I guess we have to remove the tube and reseal it, so I wonder if any of you has ever done that? I am guessing there has to be an end-stop on the rudder stock preventing the rudder from rising up and hitting the bottom of the boat, so I guess that must be located at the top of the stock as it passes through the bottom of the boat, hidden from view because it is in the hole which can be seen on the outside where the rudder stock passes through. If that is the case, I guess the tube has a shoulder on the bottom, so it would have to be removed downwards?

Any help or advice would be fantastic. Many thanks

Steve Moss

On Tuesday, 12 November 2013 14:53:27 UTC, Alex Aleck wrote:

Continuing in the same line of discussion in another thread... does anyone know the rudder bearings needed for the CR38? Anyone have pictures of them being replaced?

 

This is on our list for next year.

 

Thanks,

 

Alex

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[Cab...@aol.com]

Do a Facebook page???

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

[Norris Y. Palmer]

I do not like the fact that you can get killed by adds and unwanted persons walking in.

 

Now I think that there are open facebooks that don’t require you to have face book to log in.

 

From the Salish Sea

48° 34.099 ° North

123° 10.456 ° West

Norris & Karen Palmer

360-378-9500

 

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com

Sent: Friday, January 17, 2014 3:59 PM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3681/7011 - Release Date: 01/17/14

[Norris Y. Palmer]

No…its too flatulent.

 

We should have a members roster with pics and boats and personalities and cruising.

 

Hey…doesn’t Active Captain have something like that?

 

From the Salish Sea

48° 34.099 ° North

123° 10.456 ° West

Norris & Karen Palmer

360-378-9500

 

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Cab...@aol.com
Sent: Friday, January 17, 2014 3:59 PM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [caborico] Re: Rudder Bearings for CR38

 

Do a Facebook page???

No virus found in this message.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3681/7011 - Release Date: 01/17/14

[Cab...@aol.com]

I have mine set up with friends only. You only need to let people in that you want to. Yes you have to see some adds, just like on TV, but not as bad. It is easy to set up and use.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 1/17/2014 11:29:47 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 4pa...@centurytel.net writes:

I do not like the fact that you can get killed by adds and unwanted persons walking in.

 

Now I think that there are open facebooks that don’t require you to have face book to log in.

 

From the Salish Sea

[S/V Silhouette]

Breck,

I can only answer part of your question but I'll share what I did. It
may also be helpful to others.

As described in a previous post I dropped my rudder in NZ for
inspection/repair. Before departing Seattle I had drilled a couple of
small holes looking for moisture and found next to nothing. I also
tapped around with a hammer looking for hollow spots and found nothing
amiss so I decided I was good to go. In NZ I drilled a couple of small
holes and that time had a small amount of water drain out (maybe 2 cups)
so I knew something had changed. Once I got the rudder out it was
apparent there were now some cracks in the glass around both the top and
bottom shafts that were not evident before. We did sail the boat pretty
hard a few times over that 12,000 miles so I wasn't terribly surprised.

The approach I used to access what I might need to do was to drill a
number of test holes using a 1.25" hole saw. I set the pilot bit just
long enough to just drill through the glass and then pulled it back
flush with the cutting teeth of the saw and completed drilling. I
drilled down until the saw touched the SS web. By rocking the saw a bit
one could extract a plug and examine the condition of the foam. The foam
I found was almost all clean and dry. It was also not the low density
pour in place variety others have mentioned but proper structural foam.
The only area where I found any issue was at the bottom of the rudder
near the shaft. Some of that foam was blackened in color but still firm
in texture, not the "mush" that others have described. I then elected to
cut open a 6" wide section of the outer skin along the bottom of the
rudder. I made the cut approx. 2" in from the edges. I then dug out a
section of foam so that I could inspect the shaft to web welds in that
lower forward corner. They were all bright and shiny. I replaced the
small section of foam, and glassed the skin back in place using approx.
a 12 to 1 taper around the edges. Basically I followed the guidelines
outlined in the West System Fiberglass Repair Manual for such repairs.
The shaft areas were repaired as previously described. For the plugs I
tapered the edges, coated the plug with a heavy layer of epoxy/filler
and set them back in place. I then glassed over the outer surface after
tapering each area.

The end story is that someone else had already rebuilt the rudder. It
had none of the serious problems others have related here. This doesn't
answer your primary question but perhaps boring test holes as described
would help you access the condition of your rudder. Of course you very
well may have other indications that the rudder needs to be rebuilt.
This article on the West System site in but one example of how to
approach a rebuild although in this case they pretty much started over.
http://www.westsystem.com/ss/rebuilding-a-rudder/

Patrick
S/V Silhouette, CR38, #43
Currently moored Radio Bay, Hilo, HI

[Steve Moss]

Hi Thierry,

Many thanks for the link to the design drawings.  Unfortunately they don't tell me any more than I already know.  I have now got the gland apart since last posting, and can now confirm that the problem is definitely not with the gland, but that water is seeping around the bearing where it is glassed through the hull.;  This is of course bad news.  The bearing will have to come out, but I can see on the inside that the tube is not plain.  I can see two knurls right where it emerges from the fiberglass.  The most hopeful scenario is that these knurls are only at the top of the tube, similar to those seen on skin fittings to stop them turning. In which case I can hopefully extract it using the threaded portion to push down on something to srpead the load.  People around the marina, however, suggest it is possible that the tube is knurled along its length. If this is the case it is going to be a messy business getting it out.

Has any of you ever had this work done?

Steve
CR38 #93

[Home]

I want to know who is behind the push requiring a person to have a Facebook acct to sign up for just about anything on line.

Larry

Venteux

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 17, 2014, at 11:29 PM, "Norris Y. Palmer" <4pa...@centurytel.net> wrote:

I do not like the fact that you can get killed by adds and unwanted persons walking in.

 

Now I think that there are open facebooks that don’t require you to have face book to log in.

 

From the Salish Sea

48° 34.099 ° North

123° 10.456 ° West

Norris & Karen Palmer

360-378-9500

<image003.png>

[S/V Silhouette]

Steve,

I haven't mentioned this before because there is such a large number of
boats between yours and mine and considerable changes were made in the
build process between them. This may be of no use but I'll put it out
here anyway.

While I had my rudder out I spent considerable time measuring and poking
and prodding to try and determine what bearing was installed on my hull
#43 just for future reference. I came to the conclusion that is most
likely a Buck Algonquin Part # 00rp150a12. This is based on measurements
I made, wear marks on the shaft, and the shape of the glass area where
the tube under the packing gland meets the hull. If I'm right and it's
only a guess because I didn't have any reason to cut into the glass,
there may be, strong emphasis on "may", a couple of fasteners on the
bottom flange. On the other hand given that the workmanship was a bit
lax in some areas of the boat it may just be glassed in. Assuming yours
is a Buck Algonquin part since all the other CR underwater parts were
from that vendor and they dominate the market in that area, you might
gain some additional insight by looking through their catalog and making
some measurements of your own. You can find it here:
http://www.buckalgonquin.com/

They call those units "Bronze Rudder Ports". Given the shape of the
glass under the packing and other measurements made while the rudder was
removed I concluded mine was in their "Outside Mount - Square Flanged -
Angled" family. Here's a link to the entire outside mount group.
(http://catalog.buckalgonquin.com/category/outside-mount-rudder-ports)

Good luck. Your mileage may vary.

Patrick
S/V Silhouette, CR38, #43

On 1/18/2014 3:32 AM, Steve Moss wrote:
> Hi Thierry,
>
> Many thanks for the link to the design drawings. Unfortunately they
> don't tell me any more than I already know. I have now got the gland
> apart since last posting, and can now confirm that the problem is
> definitely not with the gland, but that water is seeping around the
> bearing where it is glassed through the hull.; This is of course bad
> news. The bearing will have to come out, but I can see on the inside
> that the tube is not plain. I can see two knurls right where it
> emerges from the fiberglass. The most hopeful scenario is that these
> knurls are only at the top of the tube, similar to those seen on skin
> fittings to stop them turning. In which case I can hopefully extract
> it using the threaded portion to push down on something to srpead the
> load. People around the marina, however, suggest it is possible that
> the tube is knurled along its length. If this is the case it is going
> to be a messy business getting it out.
>
> Has any of you ever had this work done?
>
> Steve
> CR38 #93
>
>
> On Friday, January 17, 2014 3:20:40 AM UTC, Thierry Danz wrote:
>
> Steve,
>
> There are design drawings for the rudder and other material that

> you can access via www.croa.us <http://www.croa.us>.
>
> Thierry
> CR42#12

>
> On Jan 16, 2014 8:10 PM, <Cab...@aol.com <javascript:>> wrote:
>
> To repack under the plate, I did as your man did. Unscrew the
> bolts, raise the plate, pull out the old packing, put in the
> new packing, put the plate back on, put the bolts in and
> tighten it. The longest part of the job was going to fins the
> right size packing. I am for the easiest way to fix something.
> His set up I am thinking is similar to the Shaft log, with the
> same type gland. Where the bearing is like the log and is
> leaking similar to if you had a leak at the stern of your boat
> where the outside of the log is in contact with the boat. When
> installing the tail piece you use 5200 to seal it as you
> tighten it down against the stern. The Buck Algonquin packing
> gland probably is not tightened up against anything. Best I
> can think of to do is from above use Creeping Crack filler
> between the bearing and the hull, clean it up good and put a
> bead of 5200 around it or fiberglass it. I would have to see
> some close up pictures of how it comes up through the stern to
> be more helpful.
> Breck Caine CR 38 #19
> In a message dated 1/16/2014 1:47:02 P.M. Eastern Standard

> Time, 4pa...@centurytel.net <javascript:> writes:
>
> Is it the same as a Northeast 400?
>
> Mine was leaking a steady leak.
>
> It is a harken wet bearings with a manufactured packing
> and cover.
>
> I took it in and they were going to have to drop the
> entire thing at great cost.
>
> The mechanic got in there and noticed the wonderful room
> down there and improvised a tool to take off the plastic
> cover, repack the shaft, put it back together for around
> $400 in labor as opposed to many more bucks by taking all
> of the autopilot stuff off…
>
> Another member came up with some kind of cover but that
> requires taking the post off which really you want to
> avoid unless you have someone else do it.
>
> I am all for doing everything you can on your own if you
> have the right tools, but there is a certain piece of mind
> that goes with items that are at or below the water line
> being done by a professional and sea trialed by a
> professional with a warranty by a professional and paid
> like a professional. They don’t charge all that money
> because they don’t stand by their work.
>
> I am speaking of real Marine Centers…this one was Cap
> Sante in Anacortes…$12,000 bucks later.
>

> *From the Salish Sea*

>
> 48° 34.099 ° North
>
> 123° 10.456 ° West
>
> Norris & Karen Palmer
>
> 360-378-9500
>

> *From:*cabo...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
> [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>] *On Behalf
> Of *Steve Moss
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2014 2:46 AM
> *To:* cabo...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
> *Subject:* [caborico] Re: Rudder Bearings for CR38

> <javascript:>.

> To post to this group, send email to

> cabo...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>.

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> http://groups.google.com/group/caborico

> <http://groups.google.com/group/caborico>.

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>
> No virus found in this message.

> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>

> Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3681/7006 - Release
> Date: 01/15/14
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[Steve Moss]

Hi Patrick,

Thanks very much for your informative post.  I'm going to get right on and look at the link you've given me.

Best wishes

Steve

[S/V Silhouette]

Steve,

I hope it helps.

BTW, my second guess at what I have is Part Number 00rp150a "Bronze
Rudder Port-Outside Mount-Square Flange". It could be either. If it is
the latter then I have quite a bit of glass covering the flange area.
Also note that not all of their Rudder Ports support a 1 1/2" shaft so
that narrows things down a bit.

Patrick
S/V Silhouette
CR38, #43
Currently moored Radio Bay, Hilo, Hawaii

[Cab...@aol.com]

Thanks, my rudder was shot when I bought the boat. I used a hole saw and drilled out a couple dozen 3" holes, reamed and vac-ed out the wet foam inside, dried it out good, filled it back up with foam and re glassed. While I was reaming I noticed a large area of solid epoxy or resin. That was when I first got the boat and did not know much. Later when I was installing an auto pilot I found the rudder was about 10 degs bent off the shaft. I then realized the boat must have been backed up into something and the rudder was bent and damaged. All that epoxy that was dumped into the rudder was part of a nice try repair. The rudder needs a total rebuild, I have priced a new one but it was around $4,000, which seemed too much. I have found a shop that does rudder, shaft, prop, etc work and does a good job. They will rebuild the round stock and web for me but I have to remove the foam and fiberglass and put it back together. I was hoping someone else had done it before me, and had pics too. ANY pics of a rudder rebuild??

 

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 1/18/2014 12:41:13 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, svsilh...@gmail.com writes:

http://www.westsystem.com/ss/rebuilding-a-rudder/

[Cab...@aol.com]

If some of the bearing is above; try to seal it at that area. Use "Creeping Crack filler". Clean of the land and the bearing good, use epoxy/glass, "marine tex", 5200. etc to seal it from above before you think about removing the bearing and resealing. I can't believe the people at the yard have not suggested that.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 1/18/2014 8:32:22 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, steve....@gmail.com writes:

Hi Thierry,

Many thanks for the link to the design drawings.  Unfortunately they don't tell me any more than I already know.  I have now got the gland apart since last posting, and can now confirm that the problem is definitely not with the gland, but that water is seeping around the bearing where it is glassed through the hull.;  This is of course bad news.  The bearing will have to come out, but I can see on the inside that the tube is not plain.  I can see two knurls right where it emerges from the fiberglass.  The most hopeful scenario is that these knurls are only at the top of the tube, similar to those seen on skin fittings to stop them turning. In which case I can hopefully extract it using the threaded portion to push down on something to srpead the load.  People around the marina, however, suggest it is possible that the tube is knurled along its length. If this is the case it is going to be a messy business getting it out.

Has any of you ever had this work done?

Steve
CR38 #93


On Friday, January 17, 2014 3:20:40 AM UTC, Thierry Danz wrote:

Steve,

There are design drawings for the rudder and other material that you can access via www.croa.us.

Thierry
CR42#12

On Jan 16, 2014 8:10 PM, <Cab...@aol.com> wrote:

To repack under the plate, I did as your man did. Unscrew the bolts, raise the plate, pull out the old packing, put in the new packing, put the plate back on, put the bolts in and tighten it. The longest part of the job was going to fins the right size packing. I am for the easiest way to fix something. His set up I am thinking is similar to the Shaft log, with the same type gland. Where the bearing is like the log and is leaking similar to if you had a leak at the stern of your boat where the outside of the log is in contact with the boat. When installing the tail piece you use 5200 to seal it as you tighten it down against the stern. The Buck Algonquin packing gland probably is not tightened up against anything. Best I can think of to do is from above use Creeping Crack filler between the bearing and the hull, clean it up good and put a bead of 5200 around it or fiberglass it.  I would have to see some close up pictures of how it comes up through the stern to be more helpful. 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 1/16/2014 1:47:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, 4pa...@centurytel.net writes:

Is it the same as a Northeast 400?

Mine was leaking a steady leak.

It is a harken wet bearings with a manufactured packing and cover.

I took it in and they were going to have to drop the entire thing at great cost.

The mechanic got in there and noticed the wonderful room down there and improvised a tool to take off the plastic cover, repack the shaft, put it back together for around $400 in labor as opposed to many more bucks by taking all of the autopilot stuff off…

Another member came up with some kind of cover but that requires taking the post off which really you want to avoid unless you have someone else do it.

 

I am all for doing everything you can on your own if you have the right tools, but there is a certain piece of mind that goes with items that are at or below the water line being done by a professional and sea trialed by a professional with a warranty by a professional and paid like a professional.  They don’t charge all that money because they don’t stand by their work.

 

I am speaking of real Marine Centers…this one was Cap Sante in Anacortes…$12,000 bucks later.

 

From the Salish Sea

48° 34.099 ° North

123° 10.456 ° West

Norris & Karen Palmer

360-378-9500

 

From: cabo...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Steve Moss
Sent: Thursday, January 16, 2014 2:46 AM
To: cabo...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [caborico] Re: Rudder Bearings for CR38

 

Hi everyone,

I'm new to this group. My wife and I have a CR38 in Wales, #93, built in 1984.  I wondered if any of you who posted on the topic of rudder bearings have ever removed the bearing?  I noticed that Alex Tarlecky had posted a question about this, but I have not found any clear answers. There is nothing wrong with the bearing itself, but water is weeping around the edges of the bearing tube (not through the packing gland up the inside). I guess we have to remove the tube and reseal it, so I wonder if any of you has ever done that? I am guessing there has to be an end-stop on the rudder stock preventing the rudder from rising up and hitting the bottom of the boat, so I guess that must be located at the top of the stock as it passes through the bottom of the boat, hidden from view because it is in the hole which can be seen on the outside where the rudder stock passes through. If that is the case, I guess the tube has a shoulder on the bottom, so it would have to be removed downwards?

Any help or advice would be fantastic. Many thanks

Steve Moss

On Tuesday, 12 November 2013 14:53:27 UTC, Alex Tarlecky wrote:

Continuing in the same line of discussion in another thread... does anyone know the rudder bearings needed for the CR38? Anyone have pictures of them being replaced?

 

This is on our list for next year.

 

Thanks,

 

Alex

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[Cab...@aol.com]

If you have the flange gland the fix is simple. The 4 bolts that hold the flange down, remove them pull the flange gland assembly up. put 5200 under and tighten the assembly down again. That bulge at the bottom of the assembly slips into the rudder bearing. This is similar to the tail pieces on most boats. The Buck Algonquin tail piece for the Cabo 38 that I have is threaded in and then.... If anyone ever has to replace one let me know and I will give you the whole horror story.

 

Breck Caine CR 38 #19

 

In a message dated 1/18/2014 1:28:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, steve....@gmail.com writes:

Hi Patrick,

Thanks very much for your informative post.  I'm going to get right on and look at the link you've given me.

Best wishes

Steve

> Hi Thierry,
>
> Many thanks for the link to the design drawings.  Unfortunately they
> don't tell me any more than I already know.  I have now got the gland
> apart since last posting, and can now confirm that the problem is
> definitely not with the gland, but that water is seeping around the
> bearing where it is glassed through the hull.;  This is of course bad
> news.  The bearing will have to come out, but I can see on the inside
> that the tube is not plain.  I can see two knurls right where it
> emerges from the fiberglass.  The most hopeful scenario is that these
> knurls are only at the top of the tube, similar to those seen on skin
> fittings to stop them turning. In which case I can hopefully extract
> it using the threaded portion to push down on something to srpead the
> load.  People around the marina, however, suggest it is possible that
> the tube is knurled along its length. If this is the case it is going
> to be a messy business getting it out.
>
> Has any of you ever had this work done?
>
> Steve
> CR38 #93
>
>
> On Friday, January 17, 2014 3:20:40 AM UTC, Thierry Danz wrote:
>
>     Steve,
>
>     There are design drawings for the rudder and other material that

>     you can access via www.croa.us <http://www.croa.us>.

>
>     Thierry
>     CR42#12
>
>     On Jan 16, 2014 8:10 PM, <Cab...@aol.com <javascript:>> wrote:
>
>         To repack under the plate, I did as your man did. Unscrew the
>         bolts, raise the plate, pull out the old packing, put in the
>         new packing, put the plate back on, put the bolts in and
>         tighten it. The longest part of the job was going to fins the
>         right size packing. I am for the easiest way to fix something.
>         His set up I am thinking is similar to the Shaft log, with the
>         same type gland. Where the bearing is like the log and is
>         leaking similar to if you had a leak at the stern of your boat
>         where the outside of the log is in contact with the boat. When
>         installing the tail piece you use 5200 to seal it as you
>         tighten it down against the stern. The Buck Algonquin packing
>         gland probably is not tightened up against anything. Best I
>         can think of to do is from above use Creeping Crack filler
>         between the bearing and the hull, clean it up good and put a
>         bead of 5200 around it or fiberglass it.  I would have to see
>         some close up pictures of how it comes up through the stern to
>         be more helpful.
>         Breck Caine CR 38 #19
>         In a message dated 1/16/2014 1:47:02 P.M. Eastern Standard

>         Time, 4pa...@centurytel.net <javascript:> writes:
>
>             Is it the same as a Northeast 400?
>
>             Mine was leaking a steady leak.
>
>             It is a harken wet bearings with a manufactured packing
>             and cover.
>
>             I took it in and they were going to have to drop the
>             entire thing at great cost.
>
>             The mechanic got in there and noticed the wonderful room
>             down there and improvised a tool to take off the plastic
>             cover, repack the shaft, put it back together for around
>             $400 in labor as opposed to many more bucks by taking all
>             of the autopilot stuff off…
>
>             Another member came up with some kind of cover but that
>             requires taking the post off which really you want to
>             avoid unless you have someone else do it.
>
>             I am all for doing everything you can on your own if you
>             have the right tools, but there is a certain piece of mind
>             that goes with items that are at or below the water line
>             being done by a professional and sea trialed by a
>             professional with a warranty by a professional and paid
>             like a professional.  They don’t charge all that money
>             because they don’t stand by their work.
>
>             I am speaking of real Marine Centers…this one was Cap
>             Sante in Anacortes…$12,000 bucks later.
>

>             *From the Salish Sea*

>
>             48° 34.099 ° North
>
>             123° 10.456 ° West
>
>             Norris & Karen Palmer
>
>             360-378-9500
>

>             *From:*cabo...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>
>             [mailto:cabo...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>] *On Behalf
>             Of *Steve Moss
>             *Sent:* Thursday, January 16, 2014 2:46 AM
>             *To:* cabo...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>

>             *Subject:* [caborico] Re: Rudder Bearings for CR38

>             <javascript:>.

>             To post to this group, send email to

>             cabo...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>.

>             Visit this group at
>             http://groups.google.com/group/caborico

>             <http://groups.google.com/group/caborico>.

>             For more options, visit
>             https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out

>             <https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out>.

>
>             No virus found in this message.

>             Checked by AVG - www.avg.com <http://www.avg.com/>

>             Version: 2014.0.4259 / Virus Database: 3681/7006 - Release
>             Date: 01/15/14
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[Steve Moss]

Hi Patrick,

Thanks very much for this.  Yesterday (Wednesday), my friend and I managed to chip away the fiberglass holding the rudder port in place.  You were absolutely right about its being a Buck Algonqiin rudder port.  However, as you also suggested, the modified the design over the years.  Ours, (#93) has got the type with an oval plate at the TOP, not the bottom.  It was buried under about an inch of glass fiber.  It is now loose and moves a little when you swing the rudder from side to side, but I will need to arrange some sort of puller using the existing gland nut to pull it out. (We have not removed the rudder to do this, so I can't tap it from outside).  I have no reason to suspect the rudder port needs repairing, it seems snug on the rudder stock.  The reason for removal was that water was seeping up around the outside of the tube.  Clearly, the sealant has completely failed.  The glass around the area was blue from copper that had leeched out of the bronze.

I will post some photos to show others how the process was done. 

Thanks again.  It was your information that finally clarified what the structure actually is, that and the fact I could just see the tips of the protrusions on the plate that matched the photos in Buck Algonquin's calalog.

Best wishes

Steve

[Tom]

Hi Steve,

I have Hull # 115  (1987) so our boats are likely similar.  I'm very curious as to how the rudder port is held in place.  I'm not sure there was ever any sealant sealing the port in the hull.  I'd bet it was just glassed in place.  When you say you had to chip out fiberglass to get to the oval plate, do mean you cut through actual glass, or just through gel-coat.  From looking at the pictures of the rudder port on Buck Algonquin's site (see here:  Rudder Port ), it does not seem there is an inch between the top of the oval plate to the bottom of the jam nut.  Maybe the picture is not representative.  Some photos of what you have would be great.  If it was just glassed in place, it sounds like that bond was broken at some point and I'd be curious as to how that happened.  If it simply loosened with age, that's one thing.  But if there was an impact to the rudder, I'd want to check out the rudder very carefully.  Hopefully, the port simply loosened from the glass it's embedded in and you can simply re-embed it. Once you have it out, you can then determine the best approach.  

I'm having a bunch of other work done on our boat over the winter and removal of the rudder is part of the plan. My fiberglass guy had asked me if I know the construction details around the rudder port as he suspected just a tube glassed in place.  He said that in installations where the tube is just glassed in place, he much prefers the tube to be cross-hatched to give the glass and resin something to bite into.  I'm having a new rudder made, and while it's out, I plan to check over the ruder port and any advance knowledge you can provide would be helpful.

A related question to the group:  Does anyone else feel that a 1-1/2" rudder post is perhaps a bit on the small side for a rudder this size?

Tom Fuhs

S/V Eclipse

CR-38  #115

Rock Hall, MD

[Steve Moss]

Hi Tom,

You are absolutely right about our rudder port, it is exactly as the image in the URL you attached. The upper part of the plate has got two small "pips", presumably to stop the whole thing turning in the glass.

I have not yet taken a photo of the plate after we exposed it, (the boat is 100 miles away from where I live). However, we did take a photo of the area before we started, and I have attached this. This view is looking backwards from under the cockpit floor towards the stern. You can see the rudder port emerging from a kind of saucer shape of glass fibre. At the lowest part of that saucer, which you can't see, the top of those pips was just visible.  Towards the outer edges of the plate the full depth of fibreglass had to be cut away to reveal the plate. It took about two hours with a sharp chisel and hammer. The experts around our marina said this would be much better than attempting to use anything like an angle grinder which would be uncontrolled and would make the environment extremely unpleasant. Having gone through the process, I can certainly agree that this is true. It was not a particularly difficult job once we had removed all the internal shelving in the lazarette locker so one could sit in there and work with the chisel. The chiselling took about two hours, and had to be done to a depth of about 1 inch at the outer most parts of the plate.

I will take a photo of the exposed plate, and also of the subsequent steps that we will do, and will post these on the site in due course.

Your observations on sealing are interesting. I think that glassfibre to metal never seals properly. That is the reason that so many rudders end up with water inside them. For a rudder this is not too important, but the rudder port is really a skin fitting, and one would never just glass one of those into position. Metal has got to be able to expand and contract, and this is bound eventually to produce a micro sized channel down the sides. Also, the rudder port itself will also expand and contract in the hole, so there needs to be some very slight flexibility and cushioning to allow for the expansion, and also to ensure sealing. At the time our boats were made I suspect they would have used something like mastic. In the case of our boat this has clearly ceased to function, probably a long time ago. In some positions around the plate, the glassfibre that we dug out was bright blue from the copper that had leeched out of the bronze fitting.

Our aim is to clean and dry the hole through the hull and cut away some of that glassfibre saucer shape.  Then to treat it much as one would treat skin fitting, i.e. to seal it in using Sikaflex, which is extremely tough and resilient. We thought we would bed the the bottom of the plate back into the hole  at the same time as doing the sealing, using epoxy filled with some kind of microfibre.. Once this has fully set off we will re-do the glassfibre lamination over the top of it.

Anyway, that's the plan. At least we have loosened the rudder port. Hopefully, we can now use the threaded part of the gland to pull the whole thing out.

Best wishes

Steve

[Tom]

Steve,

Thanks for the pic.  I think that is the same setup we have on our boat.  Looks identical.  I never noticed the "pips", but never really looked either.  I would think that the shape of the oval flange would prevent it from turning.  Were there any bolts through the flange?  Is the flange oriented fore-aft or athwartship?  The next time I'm down to the boat, I'll look at ours more closely.  We are also over 2 hours drive from the boat, so I know how that goes.  Your plan seems sound.  If you use a thickened epoxy to "set" the port into, be sure to *liberally* apply mold release wax to the port first.  Even then, it can be a real bear to get the part to release.  I've done this with thru-hulls, but there you can turn the thru-hull to break the bond and remove it.  With the oval flange, you cannot do that.  It would be much easier if you could remove the rudder, but with the right plan and tools, you should be ok.  Am I correct that your rudder post is also 1-1/2" diameter?

  -Tom

[S/V Silhouette]

Steve,

Very interesting. Glad my info got you started down the path of discovery.

Regarding the part used... as I stated it was just a guess on my part
based on my measurements. I did initially consider the top mount oval
flanged unit as possibility but eventually ruled it out as the
dimensions just didn't seem to come out right. Also no part of the oval
flange is visible on my installation. According to the catalog the top
mount oval style for the 1 1/2" shaft, only has 3 3/4" from the bottom
surface of the flange to the end of the port. My measurements didn't
seem to support that choice. However, now seeing how far yours is
recessed into the hull makes me think I made an error. I'll dig out my
notebooks and take a look at my sketches and notes again.

Just a thought... before you start pulling the port assembly up the
rudder shaft, especially since you've observed "it seems snug on the
rudder stock", you might want to consider some lubrication. As I
mentioned in my first post I needed to lube mine to get the rudder out
as a heavy layer of dirt and/or mineral deposits had built up in the
space between the top of the bearing and the bottom of the packing gland
area where the inside diameter of the port is larger to accommodate the
packing material. Even with the weight of the rudder and gravity helping
it was reluctant to slide out without lubrication. You may also be able
to get some light abrasive material down into the port and clean some of
the accumulated junk off the shaft before starting the removal. I was
able to clean a small area that way however, I was also able to push the
rudder up from the bottom until it contacted the hull so the area was a
bit more accessible an option perhaps not available to you.

Regarding the diameter of the shaft, yes, mine is 1 1/2" and is solid
stainless not a tube. Since it is supported at the top with a decent
length bearing surface and at the bottom with the shoe/bearing that
seems adequate from my non-engineer perspective. If it was a spade
rudder with no bottom support it might be a different story.

BTW, thank you for reducing the size of your attached picture so that
your total message size was only 180K. Some of us access this group via
very slow wireless connections and it's very helpful when people do that.

Good luck with the rest of the process. Please keep us posted.

Patrick
S/V Silhouette
CR38 #43
Currently moored Radio Bay, Hilo, HI

[Tom]

Steve, I just found a picture on my phone of our rudder port.  I think it's the same as Steve's.  I attached the pic.  I think I can just make out the nibs or ears that Steve mentioned.  

Patrick,  I had forgotten about the size thing in the past.  Sorry about that.  BTW, I *really* appreciate the level of detail in you responses.  Definitely helps with making the right decisions in my re-fit.  

[Tom Fuhs]

[Steve Moss]

Hi Patrick,

Many thanks for the various suggestions.  Regarding cleaning the hole with abrasive, I had an idea about that.  The PVC tubing used for sink and bath waste here in the UK is (I think) large enough to fit over the shaft and small enough to fit down the hole.  I think there is also enough room to accommodate some oxide paper glued to the outside of the tube, thus making a handy tool to clean the hole.  I suspect there is very little deposit on the shaft itself because the constant movement in the bearing, but we'll see.

I'll keep you updated on progress. 

Best wishes

Steve

[Steve Moss]

Hi Tom,

Many thanks for your suggestions.  I am sure you are right about the potential difficulty of removing a port set on thickened epoxy, so I may rethink that.  If the flibreglass underneath looks flat and fits well with the flange I may leave it as it is. 

There were no bolts through the flange; I wonder if that is a provision for a wooden hull? 

The flange is set athwart the boat.

I'll keep you posted as we move along.

Best wishes

Steve

[S/V Silhouette]

Steve,

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding your proposed plan and you are describing
how to clean the hole before the rudder port gets reinstalled. If so my
apologies. My comments and concerns were in regards to deposits on the
shaft that prevented me from removing the rudder shaft from the port. To
clean that area one would need the oxide paper on the inside of the pipe
in order to clean the deposits off the outside of the shaft. Perhaps
splitting the pipe lengthwise would do the trick. As you surmised I
found there was very little mineral/dirt deposit on the area of the
shaft in contact with the bearing proper. The problem I had was in the
narrow space from the top of the bearing to the bottom of where the
packing material made contact with the shaft. That's where the deposit
built up and thus the the shaft couldn't slide through the bearing area.

Thanks for the update.

Patrick
S/V Silhouette
CR38, #43

[Tom]

Steve,  Any progress on the rudder bearing?  I am really curious if you find any (obviously failed) sealant between the bronze bearing port and the fiberglass hull.  I have not heard of another leaking rudder port on these boats, so I wonder why yours failed.  Keep us appraised of your findings and progress. 

 

Tom Fuhs

S/Y Eclipse    CR38 #115

Rock Hall MD. 

[Caramba]

I know this is an old post but hoping to get lucky. Just put my CR 38 (hull #11) in the water after an extended lay up. Notice quite a bit of weeping at the rudder post. I have the same set up as Breck with the three lag bolts holding down a plate. Assuming there is packing in there that could use replacing. Two questions- 1. has anyone tried doing this repack while in the water? 2. Any chance anyone remembers packing size? Currently in a small fishing village in Mexico so getting parts will need to be a focused effort. Thanks for any help!

[Steve Moss]

Hi Caramba, and Hi Tom

Tom, first of all, I just noticed your request for information from 4 years ago!  I am so sorry I didn't notice it; we were in the process of moving the boat from Wales to La Rochelle in France.  It is probably no longer relevant, but the answer is, yes, there were vestiges of filler. I mounted the whole thing with loads of Sikaflex.  Four years later it survived sailing to France in bad weather, and had an out of water survey last Christmas,  The rudder bearing was found to be completely sound.

Caramba, I could not imaging how it would be possible to replace the bearing in the water.  It is a bit of a design flaw, but the top of the bearing is below the waterline, so the boat would simply flood.  Also, it needs to be dry for the sealant to set off. The fibreglass around the top of the bearing had to be chiseled away until the bearing could be lifted out. This took quite a time because we did not know what we ere looking for, and wanted to avoid unnecessary damage. We kept the rudder in position throughout the operation; it was not necessary to remove it completely.  Just a small tip. I made a paper tube that would fit round the rudder stock, but could slide easily.  I put the sealant on the outside of the tube, and slid it down to distribute sealant all over the hole through the hull.  I wanted to avoid sealant getting between the bearing and the stock.

Best wishes

Steve Moss

[Stephen Brady]

I believe Caramba wants to Repack under the plate, not replace the bearing while in the water..

 "To repack under the plate, I did as your man did. Unscrew the bolts, raise the plate, pull out the old packing, put in the new packing, put the plate back on, put the bolts in and tighten it. The longest part of the job was going to fins the right size packing. I am for the easiest way to fix something. His set up I am thinking is similar to the Shaft log, with the same type gland."