Freeway definition
Paul D. DeRocco
states comes from the MUTCD, which states it is a divided highway with full
control of access. The article mentions various oddities, like a few roads
that have "Freeway" in the name, but aren't. However, it makes no mention of
the practice in California of signing certain non-freeways as freeways,
indicating an alternative definition, which is simply the lack of automatic
right of access to abutters.
For instance, US-395 is lined with barbed wire fences that have these signs
every half mile or so:
http://www.pbase.com/image/132047586/original
Here's one that is barely readable in Street View:
As you can see from the neighborhood, this is not a freeway in the MUTCD
sense, but the signs look like there is some alternative legal basis in
California for calling US-395 a freeway. Does anyone know what that law is?
--
Ciao, Paul D. DeRocco
Paul mailto:pder...@ix.netcom.com
John David Galt
The law (in California's Streets & Highways code, IIRC) defines a freeway as
a road where Caltrans has paid the adjacent property owners to give up their
right to enter or exit that road at any point (a right they otherwise always
have).
I've seen this on other ordinary-looking streets in California, including
the surface-road part of CA-178 in eastern Bakersfield. One assumes that
Caltrans intends (or at least intended when they made the purchase) to
upgrade the affected section of road into a real freeway sometime later.
Larry Sheldon
I am not an authority on the subject.
I believe that sign means the route has been selected as a freeway route
with intention of building one in the future.
It means that no new "accesses" can be built, for example.
I remember seeing them across the Arroyo Seco (Don't remember the name
of the dam that the road (Foothill Blvd.?) was on top of) approximately
along the I-210 route--in fact, it seems like those signs were on most
of the roads adjacent to what became I-210.
We have similar signs here along the route of limited access routes
(analogous to Santa Clara County's "expressyways").
--
Superfluity does not vitiate
California Civil Code quote-#3537
http://lwolt.wordpress.com/
http://tinyurl.com/269dspw # <-- Where I live
3
Larry Sheldon
It occurs to me now that that was in pre-"I" days--that would have been
the "Foothill Freeway", I do believe.
> We have similar signs here along the routes of limited access routes
Larry Sheldon
> It occurs to me now that that was in pre-"I" days--that would have been
> the "Foothill Freeway", I do believe.
Foothill Blvd. (and later, the Foothill Freeway) must have been a State
or US numbered route--if not both.
I have no idea what the numbers might have been. (US 66? Seems like
I'd have remembered that.) CA 2 is (was) only a couple of blocks of it.
The Real Bev
Devil's Gate dam. The area behind it is now known as the Hahamongna
wilderness or natural area or historic park or something. Indians used
to do something there, hence the unpronounceable name. It's also where
JPL used to dump poisonous junk from its operations and uses part of it
for a parking lot, and sometimes it used to become a nice lake (haven't
looked recently, maybe there's one there right now) but the
enviroweenies still whine.
> It occurs to me now that that was in pre-"I" days--that would have
> been the "Foothill Freeway", I do believe.
We lived (and still do) 1/4 mile from the 210 before it was built. I
don't think it actually had a name before it opened, but I could be
wrong. They planted a lot of really cool trees (floss silk, Moreton
Bay figs) on the embankments between the freeway and the access roads
(still residential, mostly), and then put up chain link fences so
nobody (probably children) could play in the resulting forests. The
only people who get to see the nice trees are the mostly-low-income
people living on the access road.
I don't know how much money they could have saved by planting only
eucalyptus, but it seems somehow inappropriate to plant expensive trees
that nobody sees and then put in chain link fences so the residents have
an ugly view and no access.
And we still have potholes!
>> We have similar signs here along the routes of limited access
>> routes (analogous to Santa Clara County's "expressyways").
71 (The Corona Freeway) has at least 3 stoplights on the part I've
driven (north of Chino Hills Parkway) but they're building an overpass
which will probably combine them, although the lights are maybe a mile
apart.
--
Cheers, Bev
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Self Test for Paranoia: You know you have it when you can't
think of anything that's your own fault.
The Real Bev
> On 1/24/2011 9:32 AM, Larry Sheldon wrote:
>
>> It occurs to me now that that was in pre-"I" days--that would have been
>> the "Foothill Freeway", I do believe.
>
> Foothill Blvd. (and later, the Foothill Freeway) must have been a State
> or US numbered route--if not both.
>
> I have no idea what the numbers might have been. (US 66? Seems like
> I'd have remembered that.) CA 2 is (was) only a couple of blocks of it.
Foothill is 66 for the most part, although the Foothill part gets kind
of mangled going through Pasadena. Foothill starts up again in La
Canada west of the Arroyo Seco. Angeles Crest is Highway 2 going up
into the mountains (well, it will when they fix it again), and 2 south
connecting the 210 with the 5 (and maybe another freeway) was built
within...recent history, I just don't know when.
Steve Sobol
pder...@ix.netcom.com says...
> For instance, US-395 is lined with barbed wire fences that have these
signs
> every half mile or so:
>
> http://www.pbase.com/image/132047586/original
>
> Here's one that is barely readable in Street View:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5rljmwz
>
> As you can see from the neighborhood, this is not a freeway in the MUTCD
> sense, but the signs look like there is some alternative legal basis in
> California for calling US-395 a freeway. Does anyone know what that law is?
Are we sure that's an official CalTrans sign?
--
Steve Sobol - Programming/Web Dev/IT Support
Apple Valley, CA
sjs...@JustThe.net
Steve Sobol
says...
> On 1/24/2011 9:32 AM, Larry Sheldon wrote:
>
> > It occurs to me now that that was in pre-"I" days--that would have been
> > the "Foothill Freeway", I do believe.
>
> Foothill Blvd. (and later, the Foothill Freeway) must have been a State
> or US numbered route--if not both.
>
> I have no idea what the numbers might have been. (US 66? Seems like
> I'd have remembered that.) CA 2 is (was) only a couple of blocks of it.
US 66 *was* Foothill Boulevard, running east into San Bernardino where
it became 5th Street.
After US 66 was decommissioned, part of it became CA-66, but control of
that part of the road may have been relinquished to the local cities. As
recently as a couple years ago, the I-15 Foothill Boulevard exit signs
said Foothill was CA-66, but now, either the CA-66 shields are covered
up, or they've placed new signs without the shields. (I suspect it is
not the latter, because the signs that HAD the shield were brand-new
reflective signs.)
The 5th Street exit to downtown San Bernardino off I-215 featured old
button-copy signs with the CA-66 shield, but all of those signs and
their gantries were taken down, as part of the big I-215 widening
project. I'm not sure what the new signs will say.
It is notable that in Glendora, just past Foothill, there is a street
the city calls "Historic Route 66" -- yes, that's the *name of the
street.* Foothill is a separate street at this point, running a couple
blocks south.
Steve Sobol
says...
> 71 (The Corona Freeway) has at least 3 stoplights on the part I've
> driven (north of Chino Hills Parkway) but they're building an overpass
> which will probably combine them, although the lights are maybe a mile
> apart.
The "Corona Freeway" part of the 71 IS a limited access freeway.
The rest is called, IIRC, the "Chino Hills Expressway" - it is not
designated as a freeway.
Larry Sheldon
Thanks. Yes, that is the one.
> wilderness or natural area or historic park or something. Indians used
> to do something there, hence the unpronounceable name. It's also where
> JPL used to dump poisonous junk from its operations and uses part of it
> for a parking lot, and sometimes it used to become a nice lake (haven't
> looked recently, maybe there's one there right now) but the
> enviroweenies still whine.
>
>> It occurs to me now that that was in pre-"I" days--that would have
>> been the "Foothill Freeway", I do believe.
I'm pretty sure it was called the "Foothill Freeway"
> We lived (and still do) 1/4 mile from the 210 before it was built. I
> don't think it actually had a name before it opened, but I could be
> wrong. They planted a lot of really cool trees (floss silk, Moreton
> Bay figs) on the embankments between the freeway and the access roads
> (still residential, mostly), and then put up chain link fences so
> nobody (probably children) could play in the resulting forests. The
> only people who get to see the nice trees are the mostly-low-income
> people living on the access road.
>
> I don't know how much money they could have saved by planting only
> eucalyptus, but it seems somehow inappropriate to plant expensive trees
> that nobody sees and then put in chain link fences so the residents have
> an ugly view and no access.
>
> And we still have potholes!
>
>>> We have similar signs here along the routes of limited access
>>> routes (analogous to Santa Clara County's "expressyways").
>
> 71 (The Corona Freeway) has at least 3 stoplights on the part I've
> driven (north of Chino Hills Parkway) but they're building an overpass
> which will probably combine them, although the lights are maybe a mile
> apart.
California (and other places, too, I think) used to put up "End Freeway"
signs at the approach to an at-grade crossing, then "Begin Freeway on
the other side of it.
US 99 all the way up the Valley was like that.
Larry Sheldon
> In article<QY2dnc8Ql45FsKDQ...@earthlink.com>,
> pder...@ix.netcom.com says...
>
>> For instance, US-395 is lined with barbed wire fences that have these
> signs
>> every half mile or so:
>>
>> http://www.pbase.com/image/132047586/original
>>
>> Here's one that is barely readable in Street View:
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/5rljmwz
>>
>> As you can see from the neighborhood, this is not a freeway in the MUTCD
>> sense, but the signs look like there is some alternative legal basis in
>> California for calling US-395 a freeway. Does anyone know what that law is?
>
> Are we sure that's an official CalTrans sign?
Please see "S3-a (CA) on page 3 of
http://www.sanjoseca.gov/publicWorks/EngServ/documents/RegulatorySigns.pdf
That is what I remember from way back.
Binging pulls up an Oregon reference to stuff about eminent domain
compensation.
Otto Yamamoto
> Are we sure that's an official CalTrans sign?
Note the credit: DPW/DOH. It predates Caltrans, obviously. It was made-
though maybe not posted prior to 1973.
This isn't unique to California. While I lived in Colorado, US 285
between Alamosa and La Jara had signs proclaiming it a controlled access
highway at the edge of the western verge. There was enough ROW for a dual
carriageway.
--
Otto Yamamoto
Paul D. DeRocco
> Please see "S3-a (CA) on page 3 of
> http://www.sanjoseca.gov/publicWorks/EngServ/documents/RegulatorySigns.pdf
Interesting. That sign says "DEPT OF TRANSPORTATION" at the bottom. Does
that refer to the county DOT?
Anyway, it seems that there are two legal definitions of "freeway" that are
both used in California, even though they are not the same thing.
Paul D. DeRocco
>
> The law (in California's Streets & Highways code, IIRC) defines a freeway
> as
> a road where Caltrans has paid the adjacent property owners to give up
> their
> right to enter or exit that road at any point (a right they otherwise
> always
> have).
Section 257 says: "For the purpose of this article only, and to distinguish
between the terms 'freeway' and 'expressway,' the word 'freeway'
shall mean a divided arterial highway for through traffic with full
control of access and with grade separations at intersections, while
the word 'expressway' shall mean an arterial highway for through
traffic which may have partial control of access, but which may or
may not be divided or have grade separations at intersections."
So "For the purpose of this article only" is the escape clause that allows
them to have that definition of freeway (which comports with the MUTCD),
while still allowing the use of signs like the one I photographed under some
other article of the law. Since that particular sign is the only place I've
seen the more lax definition applied, it would perhaps have been better had
they simply put the word EXPRESSWAY on that sign, since that's what US-395
is according to the above definition.
Larry Sheldon
>> "Larry Sheldon"<lfsh...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Please see "S3-a (CA) on page 3 of
>> http://www.sanjoseca.gov/publicWorks/EngServ/documents/RegulatorySigns.pdf
>
> Interesting. That sign says "DEPT OF TRANSPORTATION" at the bottom. Does
> that refer to the county DOT?
Not sure but I thing California DOT is the birth-name of CalTrans,
CalTrain, el al.
> Anyway, it seems that there are two legal definitions of "freeway" that are
> both used in California, even though they are not the same thing.
Again--I thin the sign is announcing that the land has been set aside
for an as-yet-unbuilt freeway.
Larry Sheldon
> On 1/24/2011 2:43 PM, Paul D. DeRocco wrote:
>>> "Larry Sheldon"<lfsh...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Please see "S3-a (CA) on page 3 of
>>> http://www.sanjoseca.gov/publicWorks/EngServ/documents/RegulatorySigns.pdf
>>>
>>
>> Interesting. That sign says "DEPT OF TRANSPORTATION" at the bottom. Does
>> that refer to the county DOT?
>
> Not sure but I thing California DOT is the birth-name of CalTrans,
> CalTrain, el al.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrans
>> Anyway, it seems that there are two legal definitions of "freeway"
>> that are
>> both used in California, even though they are not the same thing.
>
> Again--I think the sign is announcing that the land has been set aside
rsh...@gmail.com
> In article <QY2dnc8Ql45FsKDQnZ2dnUVZ_s-dn...@earthlink.com>,
> pdero...@ix.netcom.com says...
yep, guaranteed
from the days of oldies but goodies
and thanks to Daniel Faigan more then you ever wanted to know
jgar the jorrible
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrans
>
Learned something new today, where white lines came from. Thanks!
(Prolly seen it before, but it seems new anyways)
jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
Took my younger boy to the Vista Steam Engine Museum over the
weekend. Was amazed to see the Rolls Royce Owners Club there, getting
their cars dusty, including a 1938 Bentley Saloon. They have a "new"
exhibit, a 50 ton generator from Catalina, it was cheaper for SDG&E to
barge it over, rent a special lowboy truck, and a giant crane to drop
it off, than to scrap it.
Kid (and me) loved this: http://www.shorttrackrr.org/dpe.html Display
includes an n-scale drive-in theater with a working video screen.
Steve Sobol
@o21g2000prn.googlegroups.com>, rsh...@gmail.com says...
> > Are we sure that's an official CalTrans sign?
>
> yep, guaranteed
>
> from the days of oldies but goodies
>
> and thanks to Daniel Faigan more then you ever wanted to know
>
> http://www.cahighways.org/stypes.html
Yeah, I refer to that site relatively often when I'm looking for info.
The amount of data on that site is impressive.
--
Steve Sobol - Programming/Web Dev/IT Support
Apple Valley, CA
sjs...@JustThe.net
Steve Sobol
@d23g2000prj.googlegroups.com>, joel-...@home.com says...
>
> On Jan 24, 1:21 pm, Larry Sheldon <lfshel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrans
> >
>
> Learned something new today, where white lines came from. Thanks!
> (Prolly seen it before, but it seems new anyways)
>
> jg
It looks like some of the info on the Wikipedia page is outdated. The
last modification was done on January 10th, but the page still cites the
Riverside Interchange as an "important project" - and the Riverside
Interchange was finished almost two years ago.
rsh...@gmail.com
> In article <ee9e72fe-d038-4099-93ab-e63b91007463
>
>
>
> > On Jan 24, 1:21 pm, Larry Sheldon <lfshel...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrans
>
> > Learned something new today, where white lines came from. Thanks!
> > (Prolly seen it before, but it seems new anyways)
>
> > jg
>
> It looks like some of the info on the Wikipedia page is outdated. The
> last modification was done on January 10th, but the page still cites the
> Riverside Interchange as an "important project" - and the Riverside
> Interchange was finished almost two years ago.
>
> --
> Steve Sobol - Programming/Web Dev/IT Support
> Apple Valley, CA
your best bet to stay up to date is first Caltrans Dist 8, then
Riverside Co Transportation Comm in Riv Co, and SANBAG in SBd Co
they are the big players in the Inland Empire
Brent Jonas
Would you happen to know when this project will be finished? Lately,
I've been driving the 57 south (from I-210), and rather than dealing
with the stop lights (and subsequent backups in the mornings), I'll
instead take 60 east to then access SB 71.
-Brent
Cameron Kaiser
>Foothill is 66 for the most part, although the Foothill part gets kind
>of mangled going through Pasadena. Foothill starts up again in La
>Canada west of the Arroyo Seco.
That part of Foothill was largely CA 118. There used to be a nice old sign
in Sunland:
http://www.floodgap.com/roadgap/mass/#118
--
Cameron Kaiser * cka...@floodgap.com * posting with a Commodore 128
Computer Workshops: http://www.armory.com/%7Espectre/cwi/
Floodgap Systems: http://www.floodgap.com/
personal page: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/
The Real Bev
> Would you happen to know when this project will be finished? Lately,
> I've been driving the 57 south (from I-210), and rather than dealing
> with the stop lights (and subsequent backups in the mornings), I'll
> instead take 60 east to then access SB 71.
Not a clue. That sounds like a better plan, but it kind of depends on
southbound traffic on the 605 in the morning. I generally only go that
way when I want to go to Fry's, and that's generally either on a weekend
or NOT rush hours.
I thought that humongous cut at the 10/57 intersection was done
deliberately until I was pointed to the article about the landslide.
The fabric-stuff, with certain exceptions, seems to be working.
--
Cheers, Bev
====================================================================
Paranoid schizophrenics outnumber their enemies at least two to one.
D. Stussy
because it lacks tolls. That's why most highways and expressways in the
east are not freeways - because they are toll roads.
Larry Sheldon
Could be--but in toll-free (was back in the day except for five or six
toll bridges) California everybody I know took it to mean at-grade
intersections free or traffic-light free.
Elmer
wrote:
> Isn't there something in the defintion that says that a "freeway" is "free"
> because it lacks tolls. That's why most highways and expressways in the
> east are not freeways - because they are toll roads.
You're confusing the technical MUTCD term "freeway" with that same
word used as a proper noun to name a road "Something-or-Other
Freeway". In a similar fashion, there are lots of free highways named
"This-or-That Turnpike", narrow streets named "Broadway", and even
side roads named "Main Street". I know of a certain credit card
company that had the little dead-end street into their office park
named "American Expressway". When such words are used as proper nouns,
anything goes.
Elmer
John Lansford
No, the "free" in freeway comes from the lack of access; it is "free"
of driveways and direct access points.
John Lansford, PE
--
John's Shop of Wood
http://wood.jlansford.net/
D. Stussy
news:d69d9335-0d9a-4fa4...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
==========
Excuse me: I did not imply that all expressways are toll roads.
I was simply stating that all "freeways" are NOT toll roads.
I have yet to know of a highway named as a "freeway" which has a toll.
Larry Sheldon
I'm afraid top go back and look, but it my understanding that many of
the Los Angeles Freeways have one or more toll lanes.
John David Galt
No, that plays no part in the definition. A toll road can be a freeway and
often is.
Paul D. DeRocco
>>
>> Isn't there something in the defintion that says that a "freeway" is
>> "free"
>> because it lacks tolls. That's why most highways and expressways in the
>> east are not freeways - because they are toll roads.
>
> and
> often is.
The toll roads in Orange County, CA all meet the legal definition of
"freeway", but are called the "something Transportation Corridor".
Strangely, the new toll road in San Diego is called the "South Bay
Expressway", even though California defines an expressway as a road with
only partially controlled access.
The Real Bev
> I'm afraid top go back and look, but it my understanding that many of
> the Los Angeles Freeways have one or more toll lanes.
Some do, but they didn't ten years ago.
--
Cheers, Bev
==================================================================
"I used to be convinced that MicroSquish shipped crap because they
simply didn't give a flying fuck as long as the sheep kept buying
their shit. Now, I'm convinced that they really do ship the best
products they are capable of writing, and *that's* tragic."
- John C. Randolph, about MS quality control.
jgar the jorrible
wrote:
> ==========
> Excuse me: I did not imply that all expressways are toll roads.
> I was simply stating that all "freeways" are NOT toll roads.
>
> I have yet to know of a highway named as a "freeway" which has a toll.
As Paul noted, there are many: https://www.thetollroads.com/home/pdf/F10_visor_map_6_22_09.pdf
http://fastrak.511sd.com/
Put 241 freeway into google and see what comes up.
OC was forced to buy http://www.91expresslanes.com/
Just yesterday, I was telling someone to take Jamboree (street in OC
named after the Boy Scout Festival) to get to the 5, and they said
they accidentally went on the toll road after missing that exit.
Gawd, I still hate fastrak.
jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
Steve Sobol
says...
> I have yet to know of a highway named as a "freeway" which has a toll.
I-15, the Escondido Freeway, running along the eastern edge of the city
of San Diego, has toll lanes.
--
Steve Sobol - Programming/Web Dev/IT Support
Apple Valley, CA
sjs...@JustThe.net
Nathan Perry
"D. Stussy" <spam+ne...@bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote:
> ==========
> Excuse me: I did not imply that all expressways are toll roads.
> I was simply stating that all "freeways" are NOT toll roads.
>
> I have yet to know of a highway named as a "freeway" which has a toll.
It is usual to avoid naming them such when there is a toll applied, and
California colloquial usage, in particular, makes a distinction between
the two. However, many tolled highways are freeways in form and
description, though they may not be "freeways" in name. In the same way,
Broadway is a street in New York City, even though it's not named
"street".
In the end, applying names to things is an abstract process peculiar to
humans, and so it's really up to our individual process of cognition
whether we consider a thing to be a thing if it is not named as that
thing.
Nathan Perry
<d69d9335-0d9a-4fa4...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
Elmer <elme...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In a similar fashion, there are lots of free highways named
> "This-or-That Turnpike"
That's very true, although in most cases (possibly without exception),
the name does refer to what many years ago was a toll highway.
Nathan Perry
"D. Stussy" <spam+ne...@bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote:
The reason for the bi-coastal nomenclature (freeway vs. expressway) is
most likely due to separate evolution of the systems. When
limited-access highways were a new idea, terminology was not yet
standardized, so what was being developed in LA were customarily being
called freeways, whereas in NY and other eastern cities they were
referred to as expressways.
Perhaps further clouding the issue is the fact that early California
freeways were appearing around the time that toll superhighways were in
vogue back east. It's possible that this parallel influenced the choice
of name in California, but it's pertinent that CA freeways were
developed without a contrasting system of toll roads (those are much
newer), whereas eastern highways did not get called freeways even though
there were a lot of toll highways coexisting in the area.
That being said, in California the term "freeway" is seldom applied by
the general public to a toll highway. So linguistically speaking, if a
large segment of the population uses that meaning, then it does in fact
gain that definition in the lexicon (i.e., it gets into the dictionary
that way). Caltrans even throws a nod to this custom by distinguishing
between a "Freeway Entrance" and a "Toll Road Entrance".
At the same time, highway professionals would apply the term "freeway"
to any limited-access divided highway, toll or no, and to no other type
of road. And that's true in the east as much as in the west.
jgar the jorrible
> In article
> <d69d9335-0d9a-4fa4-b1a7-eece893db...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com>,
>
> Elmer <elmer...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In a similar fashion, there are lots of free highways named
> > "This-or-That Turnpike"
>
> That's very true, although in most cases (possibly without exception),
> the name does refer to what many years ago was a toll highway.
"Why do we drive on the parkway and park on the driveway?" - George
Carlin
jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=439x234228
D. Stussy
news:8q9621...@mid.individual.net...
> On 1/25/2011 5:41 PM, D. Stussy wrote:
> > "Elmer"<elme...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >
news:d69d9335-0d9a-4fa4...@e16g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
> > On Jan 25, 5:03 pm, "D. Stussy"<spam+newsgro...@bde-arc.ampr.org>
> > wrote:
> >> Isn't there something in the defintion that says that a "freeway" is
> > "free"
> >> because it lacks tolls. That's why most highways and expressways in
the
> >> east are not freeways - because they are toll roads.
> >
> > You're confusing the technical MUTCD term "freeway" with that same
> > word used as a proper noun to name a road "Something-or-Other
> > Freeway". In a similar fashion, there are lots of free highways named
> > "This-or-That Turnpike", narrow streets named "Broadway", and even
> > side roads named "Main Street". I know of a certain credit card
> > company that had the little dead-end street into their office park
> > named "American Expressway". When such words are used as proper nouns,
> > anything goes.
> >
> > ==========
> > Excuse me: I did not imply that all expressways are toll roads.
> > I was simply stating that all "freeways" are NOT toll roads.
> >
> > I have yet to know of a highway named as a "freeway" which has a toll.
>
> I'm afraid top go back and look, but it my understanding that many of
> the Los Angeles Freeways have one or more toll lanes.
That wasn't the case when they were first built.
jgar the jorrible
wrote:
> "Larry Sheldon" <lfshel...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:8q9621...@mid.individual.net...> On 1/25/2011 5:41 PM, D. Stussy wrote:
Then there's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_State_Route_125
jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/jan/27/overturned-lumber-load-closes-route-76-west-i-15/
D. Stussy
news:d25045aa-5a46-46ab...@8g2000prt.googlegroups.com...
========
...Which is called the South Bay Expressway. It's not called a freeway.
So, what's your point?
jgar the jorrible
wrote:
> "jgar the jorrible" <joel-ga...@home.com> wrote in messagenews:d25045aa-5a46-46ab...@8g2000prt.googlegroups.com...
> ========
> ...Which is called the South Bay Expressway. It's not called a freeway.
> So, what's your point?
The point is it should have been called freeway, especially the parts
that aren't toll.
For those interested in limited access current events:
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/jan/28/jeffries-ranch-road-reopen-if-funds-are-available/
jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2011/jan/26/caltrans-not-uprooting-oleander-i-5-barrier-projec/
D. Stussy
---------
OK, but because some part of it is a toll road, that's why it's NOT called
a freeway.
Nathan Perry
"D. Stussy" <spam+ne...@bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote:
> "jgar the jorrible" <joel-...@home.com> wrote in message
>
> The point is it should have been called freeway, especially the parts
> that aren't toll.
> ---------
> OK, but because some part of it is a toll road, that's why it's NOT called
> a freeway.
That's entirely plausible, and not unheard of, as several of Florida's
toll roads are named as Expressways.
The peculiarity is that in eastern colloquial usage, "expressway"
denotes a freeway, and furthermore without creating any impression about
the existence or lack of a toll. But in California, both colloquially
and legally, an "expressway" is a different kind of road from a freeway,
and its use with CA 125 is therefore irregular.
Elmer
> In article <ii7j6r$tp...@snarked.org>,
> "D. Stussy" <spam+newsgro...@bde-arc.ampr.org> wrote:
>
> > "jgar the jorrible" <joel-ga...@home.com> wrote in message
>
> > The point is it should have been called freeway, especially the parts
> > that aren't toll.
> > ---------
> > OK, but because some part of it is a toll road, that's why it's NOT called
> > a freeway.
>
> That's entirely plausible, and not unheard of, as several of Florida's
> toll roads are named as Expressways.
>
> The peculiarity is that in eastern colloquial usage, "expressway"
> denotes a freeway, and furthermore without creating any impression about
> the existence or lack of a toll. But in California, both colloquially
> and legally, an "expressway" is a different kind of road from a freeway,
> and its use with CA 125 is therefore irregular.
This is still a matter of confusing proper nouns (names of highways)
with their technical definition. It's like complaining about someone
named Carpenter who is working as a plumber. The names of people (or
highways) are not necessarily the same as the job they do.
Elmer
Nathan Perry
<20076966-9c67-466f...@n11g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
Elmer <elme...@gmail.com> wrote:
Well, that's a very apt way of looking at it in cases like the South Bay
Expressway (not an expressway) or the Rockaway Freeway in NYC (not a
freeway).
But with the toll issue, you have the added layer of a word having
different meanings at different layers of use. To a highway engineer, a
freeway can have a toll or not have a toll, but to an everyday person in
California giving directions, it does not have a toll. Something with a
toll is simply called something else in that context, and this variance
of use occurs even before any proper names are mentioned.
A similar example might be "diner": originally, a diner was a vehicle;
no restaurant that wasn't a vehicle could be called "diner". To diner
enthusiasts, this continues to be the preferred definition. Nowadays,
however, a variety of restaurants that serve a certain fare are called
"diners" by many people, and may or may not also use that word in their
proper names. To most of the public, this is a more useful definition,
and as a result most lexicographers would consider it an acceptable
meaning too.
Paul D. DeRocco
>
> This is still a matter of confusing proper nouns (names of highways)
> with their technical definition. It's like complaining about someone
> named Carpenter who is working as a plumber. The names of people (or
> highways) are not necessarily the same as the job they do.
But the "South Bay Expressway" wasn't named after Joe Expressway. You don't
name a playground "Central Cemetery", or a movie theater "The Modern
Bistro", because people would assume that the former would be full of
headstones and the latter would serve dinner.
I suspect whomever came up with the name "South Bay Expressway" was unaware
of the legal definitions of "freeway" and "expressway" in California, and
had imported the foreign idea that "freeway" was supposed to mean "free" and
therefore was inappropriate. To those of us who know what "freeway" and
"expressway" normally mean in California, it seems misnamed.
Elmer
> > "Elmer" <elmer...@gmail.com> wrote
I think the credit card company that named the cul-de-sac driveway
leading to their office park, "American Expressway", simply liked the
sound of the name.
By the way, theaters have been given names like "Palace", "Boulevard",
"Garden", etc., but no royalty lived there, it wasn't a street, place
for growing vegetables, etc.. Kids would probably love a playground
named "Central Cemetery". Halloween seems to be a more popular holiday
each year and it's not uncommon to see parks decorated with
headstones.
Elmer
jgar the jorrible
My kids would love that!
Classic inappropriate business names:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/21/the-most-inappropriate-bu_n_786623.html#s187893&title=undefined
One time I found "Final Solution Dog Training" on several online
directories, but never was sure if it was real or hacked.
Of course, there are many bad street names, google away. There's a
Beverly Drive near my house, part of it is rutted dirt road lol.
Now Republicans want to rename the Coronado Bridge after Ronald
Reagan. Doddering comes to mind, not a great mental image for a
bridge, especially that one, I never felt secure going over it even
when I did it every day.
jg
--
@home.com is bogus.
"Big rig drivers: Take a coffee break and postpone your travels
through Inland Empire at this time," the CHP said on its website.
"Strong winds overturning trucks."
http://www.latimes.com/news/la-santa-ana-winds-feb2-2011-m,0,751873.story