Chevron Rant
Ratbert
a couple of times in the past few months, as they usually have cleaner
bathrooms. The first time it asked for my zip code, I tried to enter a
fake one, thinking it was a "market research" thing, and it didn't work.
It told me to see the cashier, so I elected to go elsewhere. When I
got home, I complained via email to Chevron, but I never heard back. I
did get an email saying that they had received my message and that
someone would get back to me. I forgot about this incident and stopped
at a Chevron again a few weeks ago. I again tried a fake zip code, and
it again didn't work. After my wife came back from the rest room, we
went somewhere else for gas. I didn't realize that it was only Visa and
Mastercard that have to enter the zip. If I find myself in a similar
situation, I might try my Amex. I rarely go inside to pay for gas
anymore, and never if I'm somewhere that doesn't allow "pump then pay."
Scott in Aztlan wrote:
> I have been a Chevron customer for many years. Perhaps I'm just a sucker for the
> marketing hype, but Techron seems to do a good job at keeping my fuel injectors
> clean. :) I always "pay at the pump" - I really appreciate the convenience of
> not having to go inside the station to wait in line.
>
> Recently, I've noticed the little signs that appeared on the pumps that say if
> you use a Visa or MasterCard, you will be required to punch in your ZIP code as
> a security measure. Now, normally I use my Discover card (for the 2% rebate) so
> I have never been prompted for a ZIP code, but today I didn't happen to have my
> Disco card with me so I used my MasterCard. I punched in my ZIP code when
> prompted, and was immediately told to "see cashier." Yes, I entered my ZIP code
> correctly; there was no apparent reason why the "test" would have failed.
>
> So I went inside, where a No Speeka English woman inside the booth asked to see
> my credit card. She swiped it through the reader, said it was OK, and set it
> down in a small wooden rack - she wanted to *keep my card* while I pumped my
> gas. Apparently they think that anyone whose credit card "fails" whatever check
> they perform at the pump is obviously a criminal who is going to drive off
> without paying, so they hold your credit card hostage. I ended up having to go
> back out, pump my gas, then go back inside to sign the slip.
>
> When I got back to the car, I told my wife what had happened. She mentioned that
> the exact same thing had happened to her when she tried to use a MasterCard at a
> different Chevron station.
>
> I don't know what Chevron is thinking with this new "security" procedure, but
> they've just lost themselves two regular customers. There are plenty of other
> gas stations where "pay at the pump" still means I can pay AT THE PUMP.
>
> Perhaps some of those geniuses at Chevron need a little Techron squirted through
> their brains to clean out some of the cobwebs... SHEESH!
>
Kevin A. Scaldeferri
Scott in Aztlan <qine...@lnubb.pbz> wrote:
>
>When I got back to the car, I told my wife what had happened. She mentioned that
>the exact same thing had happened to her when she tried to use a MasterCard at a
>different Chevron station.
It happens to everyone the _first_ time they use a particular card at
a particular Chevron. Try that card a second time.
>I don't know what Chevron is thinking with this new "security" procedure, but
>they've just lost themselves two regular customers. There are plenty of other
>gas stations where "pay at the pump" still means I can pay AT THE PUMP.
They were probably aware that when a card is stolen, it is frequently
used heavily at gas stations. They're trying to keep their costs
(which are dutifully passed on to you, the consumer) due to credit
card fraud down. So, the first time a card gets used, they check it.
Of course, no one seems to have explained this system to the clerks,
who ought to be checking your ID at the same time, but never do.
At any rate, they really are trying to protect you and themselves from
credit card fraud.
--
======================================================================
Kevin Scaldeferri Calif. Institute of Technology
The INTJ's Prayer:
Lord keep me open to others' ideas, WRONG though they may be.
inv...@invalid.net
(Kevin A. Scaldeferri) wrote:
> So, the first time a card gets used, they check it.
>Of course, no one seems to have explained this system to the clerks,
>who ought to be checking your ID at the same time, but never do.
How can they check ID? Visa/MC contracts with the merchants (Merchant
Agrement) specifically addresses the conditions under which a Merchant
who accepts their cards MAY request ID from the card holder!
Kooky shortwave
"Scott in Aztlan" <qine...@lnubb.pbz> wrote in message
news:djn12v89ifd34770l...@4ax.com...
> So I went inside, where a No Speeka English woman inside the booth asked
to see
> my credit card. She swiped it through the reader, said it was OK, and set
it
> down in a small wooden rack - she wanted to *keep my card* while I pumped
my
> gas. Apparently they think that anyone whose credit card "fails" whatever
check
> they perform at the pump is obviously a criminal who is going to drive off
> without paying, so they hold your credit card hostage. I ended up having
to go
> back out, pump my gas, then go back inside to sign the slip.
Rule #1: ALWAYS use CASH at the gas station.
Rule #2: Always request a rounded amount purchase.
Example: "I'll take Ten Bucks cash worth of Regular please"
They pump in ten, you give em a ten dollar bill. Always give
them the EXACT amount of cash (after you check
to make sure the pump sale display says $10.00)
Doing this you'll never give em a chance
to screw up and try to blame you, especially as these
dotheads and pakis who run gas stations
nowadays can be downright opportunistic
assholes if they want or smell a chance to screw you out of $$$.
Ratbert
> fraud at all with Discover, Amex, and the various ATM cards that the pumps
> accept. DUMB, DUMB, DUMB.
ATM card which require PINs are useless to a thief, unless he knows your
PIN. Those with credit card logos (so-called "check cards") are good
until your account is empty. That, by the way, is why I complain loudly
when my bank tries to force a check card upon me.
> Yeah, another weak link in a fraud prevention chain composed entirely of weak
> leaks.
Kind of like airport security.
01dyna...@cox.net
<qine...@lnubb.pbz> ran screaming out of the mens room and gasped:
>On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 16:58:06 GMT, Ratbert
><ratb...@eat.my.shorts.spammers.myway.com> wrote:
>
>>> Yeah, another weak link in a fraud prevention chain composed entirely of weak
>>> leaks.
>>
>>Kind of like airport security.
>
>Yup, like all those National Guard troops in Illinois and Florida who stood
>around in the airports with UNLOADED M-16s.
>
>Looks like that obituary I read for Common Sense was right on the money...
A few years ago, I had an "inspector", (and I use that term loosely),
run my bowling ball and bag through the x-ray machine, (I was going to
a tournament) and then open the bag up, pull the ball out of the bag
and handed it to me and said:
"Open it..."
It took 15 min. and two supervisors to convince her that bowling balls
can't be opened.
Remove my pants to email
Kevin A. Scaldeferri
Kevin A. Scaldeferri
Scott in Aztlan <qine...@lnubb.pbz> wrote:
>Scaldeferri) wrote:
>
>>Scott in Aztlan <qine...@lnubb.pbz> wrote:
>>>
>>>When I got back to the car, I told my wife what had happened. She mentioned that
>>>the exact same thing had happened to her when she tried to use a MasterCard at a
>>>different Chevron station.
>>
>>It happens to everyone the _first_ time they use a particular card at
>>a particular Chevron. Try that card a second time.
>
>time, why would I come back again for even more punishment?
Do you have the same attitude towards stores that check your ID when
you use a credit card?
>
>Oh, and I guess fraud only happens with Visa and MasterCard, and there is no
>fraud at all with Discover, Amex, and the various ATM cards that the pumps
>accept. DUMB, DUMB, DUMB.
They have the same policy with Amex. I'm not sure why they don't for
Discover.
Regina Litman
>
> This might have worked back in the 1950s, but nowadays, most gas
> stations in my area don't have anything but self-service. No one to
> pump that $10 worth for you. No one to hand that $10 bill to through
> the driver's window.
Move to New Jersey! Or at least do what I did and get a job there (I
live across the Delaware River in Pennsylvania). I always try to fill up
there during my weekday commutes, especially when the weather is bad. I
can stay cozily in the car while someone else is filling up for me at
prices competitive with (in fact, usually lower) the self-serve ones
closer to home.
> You either pay at the pump, or you have to walk inside to pay.
>
> I don't walk.
I've gotten to the point where I won't go to a self-serve gas station
any more, unless I'm dangerously close to empty and no other options are
available, unless there's a pay-at-the-pump option. Of course, this
means that I don't pay cash outside of New Jersey for gas, but that's
all right with me. If I go to a Sunoco station, I use their card, and if
I go somewhere else, I use either Discover (for the rebate, just like
the original poster) or my ATM card.
On the rare occasions when I want to use cash (for instance, once last
year, I found myself carrying more cash than I was comfortable carrying
at a time when I needed gas, so this was a good way to get rid of at
least a small amount of it), I'll always leave MORE than the amount I
anticipate being the final purchase amount. This is because I prefer to
fill up every time I stop for gas. If I only leave $10 and stop the pump
at that amount (actually, they'll stop the pump for me), with the prices
the way they are these days, I won't get a full tank. I tend to leave
$20 right now.
For this reason, when I use my ATM card, which is really a VISA debit
card these days, I choose the option to process it as a credit card. If
I choose to make it a debit card, I then get asked to set a limit, and I
think I got scared off from using this option the first time I ever
encountered it because I chose only $15 and then got cut off before I
got a full tank. However, there's a disadvantage of using it as a credit
card, I've discovered (and Consumer Reports magazine has documented) - a
hold is put on an extra amount in my bank account for a few days when I
do this. It's never been more the $1.00 for me, but the Consumer Reports
article mentioned amounts up to $50 for some people. Also, I use my
debit card a lot for purchases in the $15-$75 range in, restaurants,
bookstores, and other merchants from time to time, and the only time I
ever saw an extra hold like this show up at an establishment other than
a gas station was a $0.07 (seven cents) hold from a restaurant on Desert
Island, Maine. So, it must be mainly a gas station practice.
Since the amount is only $1.00, and even with as many as two fill-ups a
week with this hold tacked on, I don't run any danger of an overdrawn
account, I've stuck with my credit card selection. However, I may
consider going back to using it as a debit card at the pump if I can
remember to set the authorized amount high enough.
jh...@mindspring.com
(Kevin A. Scaldeferri) wrote:
>
>Since I've never heard anything like that before, what are those conditions?
The card is not signed by the card holder on the back - Merchant is to
request the card holder to sign the card and present a government
issued photo ID.
The merchant is instructed to request identification during the on
line processing of the transaction.
nospam
<ke...@clyde.its.caltech.edu> wrote:
> >How can they check ID? Visa/MC contracts with the merchants (Merchant
> >Agrement) specifically addresses the conditions under which a Merchant
> >who accepts their cards MAY request ID from the card holder!
>
> Since I've never heard anything like that before, what are those conditions?
the merchant cannot routinely ask for id. they can only ask if they
believe a specific transaction is suspicious. merchants are also
prohibited from minimum or maximum purchase amounts (which is often
violated).
there was a recent thread on rec.travel.air about this. see:
<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=8c1c20533aacf874&
seekm=3E0E387F.EDEFD646%40vl.videotron.ca&frame=off>
<http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&th=9a4af50e16bbc6de&
seekm=0kss0vouhoc2a78aq10a22mtjap6kdrsra%404ax.com&frame=off>
Curtis CCR
> I normally don't buy gas at Chevron due to the price, but have wanted to
> a couple of times in the past few months, as they usually have cleaner
> bathrooms. The first time it asked for my zip code, I tried to enter a
> fake one, thinking it was a "market research" thing, and it didn't work.
Chevron is not using your zip code for any market research, at least
not for any research that could tied back to you. Hell, they already
know who you are - you gave them your credit card number when you slid
into the card reader.
It really is for fraud prevention. That's why a fake zip code failed
- your telling them something they already know (so to speak).
Chevron started doing this a couple of years ago, but only in areas
they felt were high risk for credit card fraud.
If someone stole you credit card, you wouldn't want them using it to
buy gas, would you? Of course, if there was a fruadulent charge on
your card, you could get it reversed, but the merchant is out the
money. It no guarantee, but it reduces the incident of fraud.
> It told me to see the cashier, so I elected to go elsewhere. When I
> got home, I complained via email to Chevron, but I never heard back. I
> did get an email saying that they had received my message and that
> someone would get back to me. I forgot about this incident and stopped
> at a Chevron again a few weeks ago. I again tried a fake zip code, and
> it again didn't work. After my wife came back from the rest room, we
> went somewhere else for gas. I didn't realize that it was only Visa and
> Mastercard that have to enter the zip.
You missed the sign on the top of the pump that says "Attention Visa
and Mastercard Users" that explains the purpose of asking from the zip
code is to help prevent unauthorized use of your credit card and that
the information is not used for marketing purposes?
> If I find myself in a similar
> situation, I might try my Amex. I rarely go inside to pay for gas
> anymore, and never if I'm somewhere that doesn't allow "pump then pay."
>
> Scott in Aztlan wrote:
> > I have been a Chevron customer for many years. Perhaps I'm just a sucker for the
> > marketing hype, but Techron seems to do a good job at keeping my fuel injectors
> > clean. :) I always "pay at the pump" - I really appreciate the convenience of
> > not having to go inside the station to wait in line.
> >
> > Recently, I've noticed the little signs that appeared on the pumps that say if
> > you use a Visa or MasterCard, you will be required to punch in your ZIP code as
> > a security measure. Now, normally I use my Discover card (for the 2% rebate) so
> > I have never been prompted for a ZIP code, but today I didn't happen to have my
> > Disco card with me so I used my MasterCard. I punched in my ZIP code when
> > prompted, and was immediately told to "see cashier." Yes, I entered my ZIP code
> > correctly; there was no apparent reason why the "test" would have failed.
> >
> > So I went inside, where a No Speeka English woman inside the booth asked to see
> > my credit card. She swiped it through the reader, said it was OK, and set it
> > down in a small wooden rack - she wanted to *keep my card* while I pumped my
> > gas. Apparently they think that anyone whose credit card "fails" whatever check
> > they perform at the pump is obviously a criminal who is going to drive off
> > without paying, so they hold your credit card hostage. I ended up having to go
> > back out, pump my gas, then go back inside to sign the slip.
Chevron does not require dealers to hold your card hostage. Chances
are, your card did not work inside either but the they just took it
and they ran the transaction later by phone. - I am not sure why
stations do it, but some do - don't ask me how I know this. There are
any number of reasons why your card failed. It may not be they think
you're a crook. Perhaps they just couldn't verify it. You mentioned
usually using Discover -how often do you use your Mastercard. Perhaps
you were near or over your limit - they used limit pay at the pump to
$50, now they have some different limit for preauthorizing, but I
don't know what it is. Perhaps there was a network problem (you're
credit transaction is preauthorized and complete by satellite).
jh...@mindspring.com
wrote:
>
>the merchant cannot routinely ask for id. they can only ask if they
>believe a specific transaction is suspicious. merchants are also
>prohibited from minimum or maximum purchase amounts (which is often
>violated).
They can not ask for ID routinely or otherwise based on THEIR
suspicions, in the case where the card is signed by the card holder
they MUST make a "Code 10" call before they do it and then only if the
card company instructs them to do it -
Kevin A. Scaldeferri
Scott in Aztlan <Newsgroup> wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:12:44 -0800, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>believe a specific transaction is suspicious. merchants are also
>>prohibited from minimum or maximum purchase amounts (which is often
>>violated).
>
Indeed. It being so soon after Christmas season, you'd think that
people would remember that a large number of retailers check ID on all
purchases in December.
Geoff Miller
Kevin A. Scaldeferri <ke...@sue.its.caltech.edu> writes:
> Indeed. It being so soon after Christmas season, you'd think that
> people would remember that a large number of retailers check ID on
> all purchases in December.
Personally, I've only seen that once. About fifteen years ago, Macy's
(or at least the Macy's at Valley Fair in Santa Clara) implemented a
new policy of checking the ID of people who made purhases with credit
cards. I don't know whether this was a general or a Christmas-only
policy, but in any case, it didn't last.
Whatever the intended duration, the policy pissed me off royally.
For one thing, the extra time involved in demanding and then checking
customers' IDs, when multiplied by the sheer number of shoppers present
at that time of year, created a monumental clusterfuck at every register.
People were already frazzled as it was, and this ID checking didn't
exactly streamline the payment process. Or generate goodwill for the
store, for that matter.
Another thing was that I was asked for my ID not just the first time
I paid for something on a given day, but every single time. I had
to go through that drill three or four times within an hour or so.
It seems to me that once a customer's ID had been checked once, it
would've been trivial to flag his account accordingly and waive
subsequent ID checks, at least on the same day.
Geoff
--
"Geoff, you must be some kind of Conservative Fascist Nazi Bastard.
You are no longer welcome on my computer. <PLONK>"
[peanu...@usa.com, celebrating (intellectual) diversity]
ArKo
news:djn12v89ifd34770l...@4ax.com:
> I have been a Chevron customer for many years. Perhaps I'm just a
> sucker for the marketing hype, but Techron seems to do a good job at
> keeping my fuel injectors clean. :) I always "pay at the pump" - I
> really appreciate the convenience of not having to go inside the
> station to wait in line.
>
Your first mistake was being a "Chevron customer". Subsequence suffering is
all natural events.
jh...@mindspring.com
<qine...@lnubb.pbz> wrote:
>......, the fraud detection
>algorithm will flag the card and the next time you try to use it the
>cashier at the store will call in for an approval, hand the phone to
>you, and the operator will ask you questions about your recent
>purchases to "prove" that you are really you.
That is the way it is supposed to work - the cashier DOESN'T initiate
the request for ID, they contact the verification folks when they are
told to do so during the purchase procedures and the credit card
verifier speaks to the customer and if necessary will tell the cashier
to obtain identification!
jh...@mindspring.com
<qine...@lnubb.pbz> wrote:
>
>The "cannot routinely ask for ID" part is also often violated.
They can ask but you don't have to provide it! You can take your
business to someplace that abides with the agreements they made in
order to accept the card!
jh...@mindspring.com
(Kevin A. Scaldeferri) wrote:
>
>Indeed. It being so soon after Christmas season, you'd think that
>people would remember that a large number of retailers check ID on all
>purchases in December.
And recall that they (the merchant's clerk) backed down and processed
the sale when they (the customer) stood their ground and refused to
provide it!
jh...@mindspring.com
<qine...@lnubb.pbz> wrote:
>
>My understanding is that they can ask to SEE your photo ID, but they
>may not RECORD that information on the slip or in their computer.
>Essentially, they can compare the photo with your face and the
>signature on the license to the one on your credit card, but they can
>NOT make you write your phone number or address on the CC slip.
The only time they can request photo id is after you have signed an
unsigned card in their presence, otherwise they are violating their
merchant agreement if they demand ID when you make a purchase and have
presented a signed credit card with a signature that "reasonably"
resembles the signature on the sales voucher!
Geoff Miller
Scott in Aztlan wrote:
>> Why? After being treated like a criminal and inconvenienced the
>> first time, why would I come back again for even more punishment?
Kevin A. Scaldeferri asked:
> Do you have the same attitude towards stores that check your ID when
> you use a credit card?
Dunno about Scott, but *I* certainly do. Pretty much anytime a merchant
tries to tell me that something is "for my protection" (or "for my con-
venience"), I know they're blowing smoke up my ass and that the policy
is really for *their* protection or convenience.
Although I understand the justification for it in certain situations,
I generally don't like being asked for my ID. As Scott's position
indicates, I'm not alone in this. Merchants would do well to consider
that while they're justified in seeking to spare themselves the expense
of having to absorb unauthorized credit transactions, asking customers
to produce ID exacts a certain penalty in customer goodwill.
Timothy J. Lee
Scott in Aztlan <Newsgroup> wrote:
>
>>Your first mistake was being a "Chevron customer". Subsequence suffering is
>>all natural events.
>
>farther to the Shell station from now on.
Why Shell? They seem to be the most expensive most of the time (there
are numerous brands whose prices are usually lower than Chevron or Shell).
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Timothy J. Lee
Unsolicited bulk or commercial email is not welcome.
No warranty of any kind is provided with this message.
Geoff Miller
01dyna...@cox.net writes:
> A few years ago, I had an "inspector", (and I use that term loosely),
> run my bowling ball and bag through the x-ray machine, (I was going to
> a tournament) and then open the bag up, pull the ball out of the bag
> and handed it to me and said:
> "Open it..."
Er, that's a great story, but...why were you taking a bowling ball
as carry-on luggage in the first place?
Curtis CCR
> In article <mrp52vofkg44hatjc...@4ax.com>,
> Scott in Aztlan <Newsgroup> wrote:
> >On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:12:44 -0800, nospam <nos...@nospam.invalid>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>the merchant cannot routinely ask for id. they can only ask if they
> >>believe a specific transaction is suspicious. merchants are also
> >>prohibited from minimum or maximum purchase amounts (which is often
> >>violated).
> >
> >The "cannot routinely ask for ID" part is also often violated.
>
> Indeed. It being so soon after Christmas season, you'd think that
> people would remember that a large number of retailers check ID on all
> purchases in December.
Based on what I have read on the credit card websites and in this
newsgroup, I was surprised to see that JCPenney had signs posted at
the registers in our local store advising customers that they would
ask for ID on credit card purchases. I have noticed just in the last
couple of months that numerous merchants are asking. I was also asked
for ID at several other merchants.
It appears to be a wide spread violation of the general merchant
agreements I have seen, but the credit card companies don't seem very
interested in enforcing it.
I am wondering if merchants are able to weasel around the prohibition
by posting the requirement. In other words, if they tell me before I
make a credit car purchase that I will need ID, they can get away with
it. I don't know. But again, MC and Visa cetainly don't seem to care
about these violations as it being done everywhere. Pet Food Express
asked me for it yesterday.
Personally I don't care if they ask for ID. I just don't want the
merchant recording any information (writing my DL number on the sales
draft or entering it into the terminal, etc.) It should take about 3
second to match the name on my ID to the name on the card.
My wife thanks merhcants for asking for her ID. She used to write
"See ID" on her cards. She still does, but she still signs them as
well since I pointed out that merchants can refuse her card if she
doesn't.
Ratbert
> You missed the sign on the top of the pump that says "Attention Visa
> and Mastercard Users" that explains the purpose of asking from the zip
> code is to help prevent unauthorized use of your credit card and that
> the information is not used for marketing purposes?
I didn't miss the sign. The first one didn't explain why they wanted
the zip code, and I didn't believe the second one.
Ratbert
> On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 03:55:38 GMT, Ratbert
> <ratb...@eat.my.shorts.spammers.myway.com> wrote:
>
>
>>I normally don't buy gas at Chevron due to the price, but have wanted to
>>a couple of times in the past few months, as they usually have cleaner
>>bathrooms. The first time it asked for my zip code, I tried to enter a
>>fake one, thinking it was a "market research" thing, and it didn't work.
>> It told me to see the cashier, so I elected to go elsewhere.
>
>
> if you do that. Apparently one of the first things a criminal will do
> with a stolen credit card will be to take it to a pay-at-the-pump gas
> station and run it through to "see if it's good" before using it to
> make larger purchases. Thus, if someone swipes a card in a gas pump
> but does not subsequently make a gas purchase, the fraud detection
> algorithm will flag the card and the next time you try to use it the
> cashier at the store will call in for an approval, hand the phone to
> you, and the operator will ask you questions about your recent
> purchases to "prove" that you are really you.
I've had no such troubles. In fact, the second time this happened to me
I bought gas twenty miles down the road, and paid at the pump with the
same card.
One time when I was moving, we stopped at a gas station where the first
pump was incredibly slow. I gave up and moved to a different pump. For
some reason, my wife's card was not convenient, so I used my card to
fill up her car as well. So I made three gas purchases at one station
in just a few minutes. When I called the card issuer to give them the
new address, they wanted to find out if my card had been stolen.
Bob Ward
<ratb...@eat.my.shorts.spammers.myway.com> wrote:
>-:Curtis CCR wrote:
>-:> You missed the sign on the top of the pump that says "Attention Visa
>-:> and Mastercard Users" that explains the purpose of asking from the zip
>-:> code is to help prevent unauthorized use of your credit card and that
>-:> the information is not used for marketing purposes?
>-:
>-:I didn't miss the sign. The first one didn't explain why they wanted
>-:the zip code, and I didn't believe the second one.
How would they use your zip code for marketing purposes in this
context, and what is your objection to their doing so?
--
The time for action is past! NOW is the time for the senseless bickering
Timothy J. Lee
Scott in Aztlan <Newsgroup> wrote:
>wrote:
>>They seem to be the most expensive most of the time (there
>>are numerous brands whose prices are usually lower than Chevron or Shell).
>
>higher priority for me than price. Hell, if price were the top
>priority, I'd buy my gas at Arco and pay with cash. :)
Not all low price filling stations are cash-only Arcos. Most of the
low price stations near where I am do take credit cards, and most of
those have pay at the pump.
Ratbert
> On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:00:40 -0800, Bob Ward <bob....@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>
>>How would they use your zip code for marketing purposes in this
>>context, and what is your objection to their doing so?
>
>
> ZIP code. I give them a fake one just on general principles, and because it's
> fun to watch the little droids type in "857" at the same time they are asking
> the question and then watch them completely lose stride when I respond "92782."
> Invariably, they ask "where's that?" When I tell them it's Tustin, CA, they then
> ask "oh, do you have family here?"
>
> I think from now on I'll give them a fake ZIP code that's in the local area. :)
>
If they ask for your address, (some stores do) make up a very long one,
and end it with something obviously fake. e.g. 194804 East End Road Apt
1549B, Nowhere, IL 34679. They won't know it's fake until they get to
the city, and then they'll be annoyed that they typed all that into
their computer. Another idea I've heard (but not tried yet) is to tell
them your zip code is unlisted.
jh...@mindspring.com
<ratb...@eat.my.shorts.spammers.myway.com> wrote:
>
>If they ask for your address, (some stores do) make up a very long one,
>and end it with something obviously fake. e.g. 194804 East End Road Apt
>1549B, Nowhere, IL 34679. They won't know it's fake until they get to
>the city, and then they'll be annoyed that they typed all that into
>their computer. Another idea I've heard (but not tried yet) is to tell
>them your zip code is unlisted.
There are states where asking for a card holders address or phone
number is a violation of state law!
Geoff Miller
ArKo <atla...@richman.com> writes:
> Your first mistake was being a "Chevron customer". Subsequence
> suffering is all natural events.
How do you figure that the customer experience at Chevron stations
is any different from that at other gas stations? Especially
considering that most of those stations are independently owned,
and therefore not run in identical fashion in accordance with some
rigid corporate plan?
Curtis CCR
> Fanning his hands wildly behind him, Scott in Aztlan
> <qine...@lnubb.pbz> ran screaming out of the mens room and gasped:
>
> >On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 16:58:06 GMT, Ratbert
> ><ratb...@eat.my.shorts.spammers.myway.com> wrote:
> >
> >>> Yeah, another weak link in a fraud prevention chain composed entirely of weak
> >>> leaks.
> >>
> >>Kind of like airport security.
> >
> >Yup, like all those National Guard troops in Illinois and Florida who stood
> >around in the airports with UNLOADED M-16s.
> >
> >Looks like that obituary I read for Common Sense was right on the money...
>
>
> A few years ago, I had an "inspector", (and I use that term loosely),
> run my bowling ball and bag through the x-ray machine, (I was going to
> a tournament) and then open the bag up, pull the ball out of the bag
> and handed it to me and said:
>
> "Open it..."
>
> can't be opened.
Several years ago some friends and I went to Seattle for a wedding.
While there of my friends bought a crystal ball. About the sixe of a
softball - he just thought it looked cool. So he bought it.
So we are going though the security screening and his bag goes into
the xray machine and the conveyor belt stops. The security guys is
looking at his screen rather puzzled. He tugs a colleague over to
look at it and they whisper to each other. They wave over a
supervisor and whisper to him as he looks at it. This is going on
for a couple minutes, and they finally ask, "Whose bag is this?" as it
comes out the other side.
"Mine"
The image was still frozen on their display. "What's that?!?!"
Pointing to the completely black, perfect circle in the image of his
bag.
"It's a crystal ball."
"Yeah, right. Open it up, pal."
Then they changed their tone when they saw it. "Oh...OK...Well...
that's interesting." Then one of them asked the other if he thought
something like that would hurt the machine.
Geoff Miller
Scott in Aztlan <qine...@lnubb.pbz> writes:
> Some people really seemed to hate doing it; I usually had to
> point to the place on the back of the card where it says the
> card is not valid unless signed and refuse to accept it, at
> which point they would (very grudgingly) sign the card.
That's happened to me a couple of times over the years. Not
because I refuse to sign my credit cards out of principle, but
because I'm occasionally absentminded or in a hurry.
Given that the ink will smear if I put a credit card into my
wallet immediately after signing it, I'll occasionally put a
new card in with the intention of signing it later -- especially
if the card it's replacing is still usable but about to expire
(most replacement credit cards are usable immediately nowadays,
but that wasn't always the case). And then I'll cut up the old
card when it _does_ expire and forget that I never signed the
new one.
Whatever the fine print on the back of the credit card says, it
comes across as rather petty and picayune to be asked to sign
it by some clerk. Especially when so many clerks just let it
slide. Why? Because merely signing the card with the name
that's embossed on the front provides no guarantee that I'm
the person I'm supposed to be. It "adds no value," as we're
fond of saying in the computer bidniss.
> Then I had to "inconvenience" them further by making them show
> me a photo ID. Some people are effing strange...
What I think is strange is that when clerks ask a customer to
sign his credit card, they take it on faith that the person
is the card's rightful owner. If these people weren't unclear
on the concept, they'd ask customers to sign the card *and*
provide identification.
One of the weirder credit card-related experiences I've had
was back in the mid-Eighties, when self-serve gas stations
were becoming more and more common but card readers on gas
pumps hadn't yet made their appearance. I was filling up
at a Texaco station in Los Gatos, and I had to run my card
in, go out and pump my gas, and then walk back inside to
sign one of those old-style slips with the carbon paper.
The immigrant clerk was adamant that I write my car's
license plate number in the space provided.
Now, that may have provided some rudimentary degree of fraud
prevention back in the days of pump jockeys, but as a self-
serve customer, I could've written anything in there. No
employee ever laid eyes on my car's license plate, which
rendered the whole exercise pointless. But Habib behind the
counter was not to be deterred, no sirree.
jh...@mindspring.com
wrote:
>Whatever the fine print on the back of the credit card says, it
>comes across as rather petty and picayune to be asked to sign
>it by some clerk. Especially when so many clerks just let it
>slide. Why? Because merely signing the card with the name
>that's embossed on the front provides no guarantee that I'm
>the person I'm supposed to be. It "adds no value," as we're
>fond of saying in the computer bidniss.
It not only has to be signed the person MUST also produce a government
issued photo ID that matches the name embossed on it too!
Geoff Miller
Jim Hupf <Jim...@alumni.liu.edu> writes:
> It not only has to be signed the person MUST also produce a
> government issued photo ID that matches the name embossed on
> it too!
You'd better tell the retail clerks of America that, then.
This has happened to me maybe three times over the years,
and in none of those cases did the clerk ask for ID. Of
course, if most of those people had the brains that God
gave a friggin' turnip, they wouldn't be retail clerks to
begin with.
Geoff Miller
Curtis CCR <curt...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
> The image was still frozen on their display. "What's that?!?!"
> Pointing to the completely black, perfect circle in the image of
> his bag.
They probably thought it was one of those cartoon bombs, the kind
with a fuse at the top and that reflected "window" on the side.
Heh...
You shoulda told 'em it was the plutonium core from a W-88 warhead.
The bastards would've gone from zero to "incontinent" in about two
seconds.
Rich Greenberg
Curtis CCR <curt...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>My wife thanks merhcants for asking for her ID. She used to write
>"See ID" on her cards. She still does, but she still signs them as
>well since I pointed out that merchants can refuse her card if she
>doesn't.
My card has "Ask For ID" in the signature box. Its never been refused,
I have never been asked to sign it, and relatively few places ask for ID.
Home Depot usually does.
--
Rich Greenberg Work: Rich.Greenberg atsign worldspan.com +1 770-563-6656
N6LRT Marietta, GA, USA Play: richgr atsign panix.com +1 770-321-6507
Eastern time zone. I speak for myself & my dogs only. VM'er since CP-67
Canines:Val(Chinook,CGC,TT), Red & Shasta(Husky,(RIP)) Owner:Chinook-L
Atlanta Siberian Husky Rescue. www.panix.com/~richgr/ Asst Owner:Sibernet-L
Geoff Miller
Scott in Aztlan <Newsgroup> writes:
[ forgetting to sign a credit card ]
> When a clerk calls you out, do you react with anger and irritation,
> or are you apologetic for your honest mistake?
I'm apologetic for an honest mistake. I think the clerk is being a
little overzealous, but he's doing his job and I feel no reason to
be a prick and bust his balls over it. Besides, I'd intended to
sign the card in the first place anyway.
> The people I saw were the former - they clearly had some reason
> for not signing their cards that made sense to them.
Or they were just being defensive when an oversight on their
part was pointed out to them, as is often human nature.
Měchael D. Brown
>
> 01dyna...@cox.net writes:
>
> > A few years ago, I had an "inspector", (and I use that term loosely),
> > run my bowling ball and bag through the x-ray machine, (I was going to
> > a tournament) and then open the bag up, pull the ball out of the bag
> > and handed it to me and said:
>
> > "Open it..."
>
>
> Er, that's a great story, but...why were you taking a bowling ball
> as carry-on luggage in the first place?
Do you think that anyone going to a bowling tournament would
chance having his bowling ball lost or damaged by airline
baggage handlers?
Mike
NOTE: Remove "Nospamd" to reply to me.
Kenneth Crudup
Scott in Aztlan <qine...@lnubb.pbz> says:
>When I got back to the car, I told my wife what had happened. She mentioned that
>the exact same thing had happened to her when she tried to use a MasterCard at a
>different Chevron station.
Funny, this never happens to me at Chevron (nor the Mobil stations, before I got
SpeedPass); I punch in the Zip, and I'm done with it.
-Kenny
--
Kenneth R. Crudup Sr. SW Engineer, Scott County Consulting, Los Angeles, CA
Home: 3801 E. Pacific Coast Hwy #9, Long Beach, CA 90804-2014 (562) 961-7300
Work: 2052 Alton Parkway, Irvine, CA 92606-4905 (949) 252-1111 X240
Kenneth Crudup
Scott in Aztlan <qine...@lnubb.pbz> says:
>Back in the day when I worked retail, I remember the annoyed reactions I would
>get when I would ask a customer to sign his credit card. Some people really
>seemed to hate doing it; I usually had to point to the place on the back of the
>card where it says the card is not valid unless signed and refuse to accept it,
>at which point they would (very grudgingly) sign the card. Then I had to
>"inconvenience" them further by making them show me a photo ID.
Yeah, but I'd deliberately put "Check ID" on the back of my cards; on the few
times a sales clerk wouldn't just look at the back and accept that *as* my
signature, they'd just check my ID and be satisfied with that. The only place
I got any sh*t out of anyone was at the Post Office.
Kenneth Crudup
>You shoulda told 'em it was the plutonium core from a W-88 warhead.
>The bastards would've gone from zero to "incontinent" in about two
>seconds.
... which is about 1/2 the time it would have taken him to be "escorted"
to the questioning area. These monkeys have grown quite humorless.
Bob Ward
<qine...@lnubb.pbz> wrote:
>-:On Mon, 13 Jan 2003 18:00:40 -0800, Bob Ward <bob....@verizon.net> wrote:
>-:
>-:>How would they use your zip code for marketing purposes in this
>-:>context, and what is your objection to their doing so?
>-:
>-:There are some stores here (Petsmart, Cost Plus World Market) that ask for my
>-:ZIP code. I give them a fake one just on general principles, and because it's
>-:fun to watch the little droids type in "857" at the same time they are asking
>-:the question and then watch them completely lose stride when I respond "92782."
>-:Invariably, they ask "where's that?" When I tell them it's Tustin, CA, they then
>-:ask "oh, do you have family here?"
>-:
>-:I think from now on I'll give them a fake ZIP code that's in the local area. :)
Hmmm - never heard of anyone who proclaimed that he makes an ass of
himself just on general principles, but it seems to coincide with the
rest of your posts, so I'll accept that.
Bob Ward
>-:On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 04:43:22 GMT, Ratbert
>-:<ratb...@eat.my.shorts.spammers.myway.com> wrote:
>-:
>-:>
>-:>If they ask for your address, (some stores do) make up a very long one,
>-:>and end it with something obviously fake. e.g. 194804 East End Road Apt
>-:>1549B, Nowhere, IL 34679. They won't know it's fake until they get to
>-:>the city, and then they'll be annoyed that they typed all that into
>-:>their computer. Another idea I've heard (but not tried yet) is to tell
>-:>them your zip code is unlisted.
>-:
>-:
>-:There are states where asking for a card holders address or phone
>-:number is a violation of state law!
Cite?
How do they know where to deliver your order, if that is the case?
Curtis CCR
> Kevin A. Scaldeferri <ke...@sue.its.caltech.edu> writes:
>
> > Indeed. It being so soon after Christmas season, you'd think that
> > people would remember that a large number of retailers check ID on
> > all purchases in December.
>
>
> (or at least the Macy's at Valley Fair in Santa Clara) implemented a
> new policy of checking the ID of people who made purhases with credit
> cards. I don't know whether this was a general or a Christmas-only
> policy, but in any case, it didn't last.
Trying to think back 15 years. Macy*s only took their own card or
American Express. The last time I paid attention to any card policies
at Macy*s, the only thing I recall was a posted notice at the POS
stating that they would nit accept Amex cards if the mag strip didn't
work.
conu...@fish.net
{snip}
> BTW, I won't mention the name of the airline, but it used to have
> "Orient" in its name. :)
Not surprising. If memory serves, MSP is that airline's home base, is
it not?
--
Kenneth Crudup
>>SpeedPass); I punch in the Zip, and I'm done with it.
In article <ac692vg7ut6cl4kk7...@4ax.com>, Newsgroup says:
>Perhaps the threshold varies depending on location? Maybe in Irvine
>(America's Safest City, doncha know) they feel it's OK
Heh. I pretty much do nothing in Orange County except work here. Everything
else I do is in or near what many would probably call "bad" neighborhoods.
Curtis CCR
> On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 01:23:19 GMT, Ratbert
> <ratb...@eat.my.shorts.spammers.myway.com> wrote:
>
> >-:Curtis CCR wrote:
> >-:> You missed the sign on the top of the pump that says "Attention Visa
> >-:> and Mastercard Users" that explains the purpose of asking from the zip
> >-:> code is to help prevent unauthorized use of your credit card and that
> >-:> the information is not used for marketing purposes?
> >-:
> >-:I didn't miss the sign. The first one didn't explain why they wanted
> >-:the zip code, and I didn't believe the second one.
> How would they use your zip code for marketing purposes in this
> context, and what is your objection to their doing so?
I guess knowing where your customer are from has some value. I have
been to a number of stores that ask for zip codes (Toys R Us is one I
can think of right off the top of my head). They are insterested in
where their customers are from - not necessarily zeroing in on
*exactly* where you live (how far do people drive to shop at our
store? Etc) In such a case, you could give them a bogus zip and it
wouldn't matter.
In the case of pay at the pump at Chevron, its an added verification
step. Their system already has your billing zipcode. In other words,
they ask you a question to which they already know the answer. The OP
proved that by trying to enter a bogus zip - it got rejected. Hell it
probably flagged his card as one that me be in questionable status.
There are plenty of things to complain about when it comes to customer
service and merchants asking for personal information. This is not
one of them. Geez... its your zip code! Its hardly anything linked
to you personally by itself - My zip is the same as several thousand
other people in my hometown. It's just a rant because the Chevron
system required some information - doesn't matter what it was they
required. The fact the require you to do anything just sets some
people off. These knee jerk reactions could probably be avoided by
just paying cash for goods and services.
Michael R. Kesti
>My card has "Ask For ID" in the signature box. Its never been refused,
>I have never been asked to sign it, and relatively few places ask for ID.
>Home Depot usually does.
I saw a sign in a USPS office yesterday that said cards marked ask for ID
would be refused.
--
========================================================================
Michael Kesti | "And like, one and one don't make
| two, one and one make one."
mke...@gv.net | - The Who, Bargain
Ratbert
> it than to make the cashier call in for a voice authorization. It
> especially sucks to be stuck in the checkout line BEHIND someone who
> is getting that treatment.
>
> The last time I was subjected to this, the activity that apparently
> triggered the red flag had occurred several days before - PLENTY of
> time for them to have called me at home to ask me about my card rather
> than holding me up in the checkout line. Had my card actually been
> stolen, the thieves would have had 4 or 5 days to go on a nice
> shopping spree. In other words, it's not only damned inconvenient, but
> it's not particularly effective against fraud. :rolleyes:
One time I paid for my entire auto insurance premium with my credit
card. The card company thought this was supsicious (despite the fact
that I charged the exact same amount with the exact same company six
months earlier), but they let it go through anyway. Then when my wife
was at Albertsons, and the $30 charge was declined. Needless to say, we
don't have that card anymore.
Curtis CCR
> In article <c678797a.03011...@posting.google.com>,
> Curtis CCR <curt...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >My wife thanks merhcants for asking for her ID. She used to write
> >"See ID" on her cards. She still does, but she still signs them as
> >well since I pointed out that merchants can refuse her card if she
> >doesn't.
>
> My card has "Ask For ID" in the signature box. Its never been refused,
> I have never been asked to sign it, and relatively few places ask for ID.
> Home Depot usually does.
It can be. My wife's had cards refused a couple of time without a
signature. They ask for ID and then tell her she needs to sign it.
Those merchants are just following the letter of the agreements they
have. She wants people to ask for her ID, but she now understands
that they are certainly not obligated to. She signs her cards now,
but also adds "Please see ID". When they request her ID she normally
says "thank you for asking."
jh...@mindspring.com
wrote:
>In the case of pay at the pump at Chevron, its an added verification
>step. Their system already has your billing zipcode. In other words,
>they ask you a question to which they already know the answer.
Curious about that statement - how do they have the card holders zip
code? Address information usually is NOT shared with merchants by CC
issuers! In fact when a mail order purchase is charged the delivery
address is provided by the purchaser and sent by the merchant to the
credit card issuer, if it is not the billing address then the charge
is usually not authorized!!!!
Where would they get the ZIP code information at the point of sale?
jh...@mindspring.com
wrote:
>
>I saw a sign in a USPS office yesterday that said cards marked ask for ID
>would be refused.
The USPS complies with the terms of the merchant agreement they have
with the card issuer!
Ratbert
> How would they use your zip code for marketing purposes in this
> context, and what is your objection to their doing so?
A simple example:
If a person owned a gas station near the airport and through zip code
gathering learned that 80% of his customers come from out of state, he
might reasonably assume that they are filling up their rental cars just
before returning them. He might then decide that those 80% of consumers
don't really care how much the gas costs (as long as it is much less
than the $4.99/gal that the car rental agencies charge). He decides to
raise the price $0.40/gal, alienating the 20% of his customers from the
local area. The 80% from out of state just pay it because he is the
last stop before the airport.
Now, one could argue that his location near an airport would lead to the
same course of action absent the data, but it is much easier to justify
with real data.
The bottom line is that the information has value, and I'm not keen on
giving it away for free. When grocery stores wish to track my
purchases, I ask for something in return (a discount). I think the next
time a cashier asks for my zip code, I'm going to ask for $5 off.
I don't know whether the gas stations actually have access to your zip
code or not. In other words, they can send the zip code in to Visa/MC
for verification, or they could receive the zip code from Visa/MC and
compare that with what you sent. In the former case, they gain
additional information through their verification. In the latter case,
they don't--they have your zip code whether or not you enter it
correctly. Does anyone else here know where the zip code verification
is processed?
Kevin A. Scaldeferri
They (Chevron) don't. They forward the information to a credit
service, which gives them a thumbs up or thumbs down. This is the
same thing that happens any time you use a credit card online. Your
billing information is shipped off to a service and they tell the
merchant if the info checks out.
--
======================================================================
Kevin Scaldeferri Calif. Institute of Technology
The INTJ's Prayer:
Lord keep me open to others' ideas, WRONG though they may be.
Bob Ward
>-:On 14 Jan 2003 16:59:11 -0800, curt...@sbcglobal.net (Curtis CCR)
>-:wrote:
>-:
>-:>In the case of pay at the pump at Chevron, its an added verification
>-:>step. Their system already has your billing zipcode. In other words,
>-:>they ask you a question to which they already know the answer.
>-:
>-:
>-:Curious about that statement - how do they have the card holders zip
>-:code? Address information usually is NOT shared with merchants by CC
>-:issuers! In fact when a mail order purchase is charged the delivery
>-:address is provided by the purchaser and sent by the merchant to the
>-:credit card issuer, if it is not the billing address then the charge
>-:is usually not authorized!!!!
>-:
>-:Where would they get the ZIP code information at the point of sale?
I'm pretty sure that it is the same process that other merchants use -
they pass along the zip code as entered - if it matches, the
transaction is authorized - if it doesn't, it's not. Had you not
considered this possibility?
jh...@mindspring.com
(Kevin A. Scaldeferri) wrote:
>
>They (Chevron) don't. They forward the information to a credit
>service, which gives them a thumbs up or thumbs down. This is the
>same thing that happens any time you use a credit card online. Your
>billing information is shipped off to a service and they tell the
>merchant if the info checks out.
>
>
Do you have any information to support this contention? (Not to sound
like "Cite?" Boob Weird) - but I find this to be inconsistent with the
'industry' practices. Supporting this type of verification for one
segment of the merchant base would seem to be inefficient and
inconsistent with the stated "same ease as cash" and contrary to the
current advertising for the VISA logo cards..
Would you know for a fact that this may be something that will be
extended to other POS terminals and locations outside of California
(or is this just another of those 'California anomalies' that y'all
have to live with out there?
Gordon Burditt
>code or not. In other words, they can send the zip code in to Visa/MC
>for verification, or they could receive the zip code from Visa/MC and
>compare that with what you sent. In the former case, they gain
>additional information through their verification. In the latter case,
>they don't--they have your zip code whether or not you enter it
>correctly. Does anyone else here know where the zip code verification
>is processed?
I have done some work with setting up credit card verification for
online web signup forms. Ok, most of my work was on the web form
end. You package up a bunch of data (card number, name, address,
verify vs. charge, card type, a dollar amount, etc.) and send it
off. You get back DECLINE and a rejection code (a lot of them had
to do with bad data formatting or missing data, and then there were
things about "no such bank", "card never issued", etc. and one
general vague one which probably caught overlimit, cancelled by
bank, fraud alert, etc.) or OK and some codes, one of which indicated
how well the address matched, on a scale from 1-7. (You DO NOT get
back a zip code, city, state, cardholder name, etc.) I don't think
I ever managed to get a 1 or a 7, not even with a bogus address
like "666 Spam Way, Spamford, Wallass, US 66666" (invalid state),
or typing in the address directly off of my credit card statement.
It also didn't object to my alleged "MasterCard" number that began
with 6011 (a Discover card number).
This payment service had a particular blind spot when it came to
countries. It knew about three of them. To get approval for those
in other countries (address checking not available, but it would
flunk the whole request on something that meant "invalid country
code"), it seemed to be standard practice to change the country
code to US and put in some bogus zip code for the verification.
(You'd get a poor address match, of course) Since the payment
service wouldn't put that procedure in writing, I refused to do
that.
Insisting on a zip code match made several co-worker cards fail the
test, as some of them had a new zip code move under them (as opposed
to they moved into a new zip code) and the bank still had the old
one. We decided not to use this info: it would turn away too many
customers.
I was very disappointed to hear that after it went into production,
a few auto-debit transactions that validated OK then got rejected
when billing was done with "invalid routing number", which suggested
that inside of 48 hours, the bank folded. My suspicion was that the
verification sucked.
Gordon L. Burditt
Timothy Binder
They pass the zip code along with the credit card number during the
authorization request. The authorization system returns a code
indicating whether or not it matched. This can be fine tuned down to
street address match, 5 digit zip match, 9 digit zip match. This is
frequently used in Internet purchases, where you don't even have the
card to swipe.
--
As of posting, the email address above is valid. If you choose to reply
via email and the message bounces, just increment the number and it
should go through. (I change it when I start receiving spam.)
Timothy Binder
Implementation guides at <http://www.authorizenet.com/support/>. These
are for Internet sites, but if the system is in place, other methods
should be able to use it. This is where the CVV (the extra three digits
on the back of many cards) can also be used for additional fraud
prevention.
Note that these are different from a transaction where the merchant has
the card in his possession and swipes it (card present transactions). In
those cases, as has been discussed many times before, they are supposed
to compare signatures and _not_ request ID, unless instructed to by the
authorizing company. At the pump, there is no one to compare signatures,
so requesting billing zip code seems like a nice automated way of
handling it -- and one not immediately available to a thief.
HTH,
Tim
Curtis CCR
They don't have it at the point of sale - it's not the dealer that's
asking. The card is authorized over a network. Many large retailers
run the front end for authorizing their own cards and have full time
connections to the front ends for others. Its a banking network.
Chevron's credit operation is a chartered bank (like many other big
retailers), so the process is not much different than any other
merchant's electronic point of sale system that talks to a bank.
Curtis CCR
> Scott in Aztlan wrote:
> > On Sun, 12 Jan 2003 03:55:38 GMT, Ratbert
> > <ratb...@eat.my.shorts.spammers.myway.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >>I normally don't buy gas at Chevron due to the price, but have wanted to
> >>a couple of times in the past few months, as they usually have cleaner
> >>bathrooms. The first time it asked for my zip code, I tried to enter a
> >>fake one, thinking it was a "market research" thing, and it didn't work.
> >> It told me to see the cashier, so I elected to go elsewhere.
> >
> >
> > BTW, some credit card companies will put a security hold on your card
> > if you do that. Apparently one of the first things a criminal will do
> > with a stolen credit card will be to take it to a pay-at-the-pump gas
> > station and run it through to "see if it's good" before using it to
> > make larger purchases. Thus, if someone swipes a card in a gas pump
> > but does not subsequently make a gas purchase, the fraud detection
> > algorithm will flag the card and the next time you try to use it the
> > cashier at the store will call in for an approval, hand the phone to
> > you, and the operator will ask you questions about your recent
> > purchases to "prove" that you are really you.
>
> I've had no such troubles. In fact, the second time this happened to me
> I bought gas twenty miles down the road, and paid at the pump with the
> same card.
>
> One time when I was moving, we stopped at a gas station where the first
> pump was incredibly slow. I gave up and moved to a different pump. For
> some reason, my wife's card was not convenient, so I used my card to
> fill up her car as well. So I made three gas purchases at one station
> in just a few minutes. When I called the card issuer to give them the
> new address, they wanted to find out if my card had been stolen.
I don't carry a Chevron card anymore, but when I did, there were a
couple of times I was in situations similar to what you described -
but I was using a Chevron card. I made a couple of large fuel
purchases for rental trucks. Within a day of the trip Chevron called
just to make sure that these unusual purchases were actually mine. I
used a card numerous times to fuel airplanes - they called once on
that - just to make sure (they also asked if I was interested in their
"aviation" card). But they never checked on aircraft fuel purchases
again once I had told them I was a pilot.
They really are interesting in protecting themselves and their
customers from fraud. They don't do it for the sole purpose of
irritating you. They want the process to be a convenient as possible,
but they have to balance that against making it too easy for people to
make fraudulent purchases.
John Lewis
>On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 04:43:22 GMT, Ratbert
><ratb...@eat.my.shorts.spammers.myway.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>If they ask for your address, (some stores do) make up a very long one,
>>and end it with something obviously fake. e.g. 194804 East End Road Apt
>>1549B, Nowhere, IL 34679. They won't know it's fake until they get to
>>the city, and then they'll be annoyed that they typed all that into
>>their computer. Another idea I've heard (but not tried yet) is to tell
>>them your zip code is unlisted.
>
>
>There are states where asking for a card holders address or phone
>number is a violation of state law!
Cite, please. Exactly where can we look up this information?
"MUFON's Dr Bruce Maccabee's comments on the new photo: "WOW! Got to
pull out all the stops on this one! A rare event, two photos of the
same (apparently) thing! The numbers of lights at the corners may
agree (do agree at two corners) and the shape of the red "car" is as I
had predicted (the left and right outlines of the "car" in the Lawton
photo would be the actual shapes of the left and right sides of the
red UFO image if photographed without camera smear)." Thanks to Jim
Hickman Research Specialist.
(Bruce Maccabee waxes enthusiastic about a Microsoft Optical Mouse
photographed on a darkened room.)
John Lewis
wrote:
>These knee jerk reactions could probably be avoided by
>just paying cash for goods and services.
Exactly. Want to be anonymous? Pay cash.
Unless, of course, it's over $10K; you'll still have to give up info
then.
Arthur L. Rubin
> There are states where asking for a card holders address or phone
> number is a violation of state law!
I thought California was one of those, actually....
--
Arthur L. Rubin 216-...@mcimail.com
Arthur L. Rubin
> I guess knowing where your customer are from has some value. I have
> been to a number of stores that ask for zip codes (Toys R Us is one I
> can think of right off the top of my head). They are insterested in
> where their customers are from - not necessarily zeroing in on
> *exactly* where you live (how far do people drive to shop at our
> store? Etc) In such a case, you could give them a bogus zip and it
> wouldn't matter.
Radio Shack -- but they stopped doing it when told it was a
violation of state law in California.
>
> In the case of pay at the pump at Chevron, its an added verification
> step. Their system already has your billing zipcode.
Actually, you're wrong. The Visa/MC clearing house has access to
your billing zipcode, but there's no reason the merchant should
know.
Arthur L. Rubin
> The "cannot routinely ask for ID" part is also often violated.
Wal-Mart asks for ID for all credit card purchases.
Period.
jh...@mindspring.com
wrote:
>
>Cite, please. Exactly where can we look up this information?
New Jersey for one and as far as where to look for the information try
that state codified statutes.
jh...@mindspring.com
(Timothy Binder) wrote:
>
>They pass the zip code along with the credit card number during the
>authorization request. The authorization system returns a code
>indicating whether or not it matched. This can be fine tuned down to
>street address match, 5 digit zip match, 9 digit zip match. This is
>frequently used in Internet purchases, where you don't even have the
>card to swipe.
We are not discussing INTERNET or MAIL/PHONE transactions where the
merchants pay a premium charge to accept credit cards, but point of
sale transactions. The additional cost of accessing this form of
verification would appear to be, as I indicated in another response,
economically inefficient since the added charge would be applied to
all of the merchant's credit card transactions as well as defeating
the stated and highly advertised "ease" of use of the card for
purchases!
jh...@mindspring.com
<216-...@mcimail.com> wrote:
>
>Wal-Mart asks for ID for all credit card purchases.
You must look suspicious, I have never been asked for ID when I made a
purchase at wall-mart, either in NC or FL the two states where I have
shopped in wal-marts!
Bob Ward
>-:On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:24:48 GMT, John Lewis <10brea...@excite.com>
>-:wrote:
>-:
>-:>
>-:>Cite, please. Exactly where can we look up this information?
>-:
>-:
>-:New Jersey for one and as far as where to look for the information try
>-:that state codified statutes.
If you can't find it there, try the Library of Congress.
Great cite!
Bob Ward
<216-...@mcimail.com> wrote:
>-:Curtis CCR wrote:
>-:
>-:> I guess knowing where your customer are from has some value. I have
>-:> been to a number of stores that ask for zip codes (Toys R Us is one I
>-:> can think of right off the top of my head). They are insterested in
>-:> where their customers are from - not necessarily zeroing in on
>-:> *exactly* where you live (how far do people drive to shop at our
>-:> store? Etc) In such a case, you could give them a bogus zip and it
>-:> wouldn't matter.
>-:
>-:Radio Shack -- but they stopped doing it when told it was a
>-:violation of state law in California.
>-:
Here we go again - what state law in California would that be?
I know that there was a law passed in California a few years ago that
forbade clerks to write down credit card numbers to "verify" a check
for cashing, but the simple act of requesting an address for
demographic information, or for a mailing list? I don't think so,
Bunkie - let's see your evidence.
jh...@mindspring.com
<qine...@lnubb.pbz> wrote:
>On Tue, 14 Jan 2003 23:10:43 -0500, jh...@mindspring.com wrote:
>
>>Would you know for a fact that this may be something that will be
>>extended to other POS terminals and locations outside of California
>>(or is this just another of those 'California anomalies' that y'all
>>have to live with out there?
>
>FYI, Chevron stations here in AZ also have this "security" procedure.
Essentially that is the same as Ca (;->
Bob Ward
<qine...@lnubb.pbz> wrote:
>-:On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 13:25:18 -0500, jh...@mindspring.com wrote:
>-:
>-:>>FYI, Chevron stations here in AZ also have this "security" procedure.
>-:>
>-:>Essentially that is the same as Ca (;->
>-:
>-:You may believe that, but we don't have MTBE in our gas, we don't have
>-:vapor recovery hoses on the gas pumps, and (best of all) we pay
>-:$0.50/gallon less than you. :)
http://198.6.95.31/AZmetro.asp
Flagstaff Regular Mid Premium Diesel
Current $1.445 $1.507 $1.594 $1.577
Yesterday $1.444 $1.506 $1.592 $1.566
Month Ago $1.387 $1.447 $1.530 $1.531
Year Ago $1.272 $1.328 $1.403 $1.339
http://198.6.95.31/CAmetro.asp
Riverside-San Bernardino Regular Mid Premium Diesel
Current $1.608 $1.712 $1.740 $1.661
Yesterday $1.583 $1.685 $1.713 $1.657
Month Ago $1.522 $1.620 $1.647 $1.589
Year Ago $1.179 $1.255 $1.275 $1.343
You need to check your math...
Although I don't know what this has to do with the subject - which was
the practice of requiring the user to enter a zip code when paying at
the pump.
Kevin A. Scaldeferri
Scott in Aztlan <Newsgroup> wrote:
>On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 03:45:44 +0000 (UTC), ke...@inky.its.caltech.edu
>(Kevin A. Scaldeferri) wrote:
>
>>
>>They (Chevron) don't. They forward the information to a credit
>>service, which gives them a thumbs up or thumbs down.
>
>waiting there with the word "Authorizing" flashing on the pump?
Since they are already authorizing your card in real time to begin
with, why do you think that this should be difficult? It shouldn't
add more than a couple milliseconds to the processing time.
jh...@mindspring.com
<qine...@lnubb.pbz> wrote:
>You may believe that, but we don't have MTBE in our gas, we don't have
>vapor recovery hoses on the gas pumps, and (best of all) we pay
>$0.50/gallon less than you. :)
You don't seriously expect me to believe that you pay $0.829 per gal
of unleaded regular do you?
BTW what is MTBE?
Geoff Miller
Měchael D. Brown <mikeNosp...@cox.net> writes:
> Do you think that anyone going to a bowling tournament would
> chance having his bowling ball lost or damaged by airline
> baggage handlers?
I'd care more about my clothes and shaving kit being lost,
personally. And that stuff presumably rode in the cargo hold
along with all the other checked baggage. I'm sure that having
your own ball is nice for the ego, but it seems to me that any
bowler who's good enough to play in a tournament could make do
with a house ball in a pinch.
As for damage, how could anybody "damage" a bowling ball?
Wouldn't that be kinda like damaging an anvil?
Geoff
--
"Geoff, you must be some kind of Conservative Fascist Nazi Bastard.
You are no longer welcome on my computer. <PLONK>"
[peanu...@usa.com, celebrating (intellectual) diversity]
Curtis CCR
> On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 03:45:44 +0000 (UTC), ke...@inky.its.caltech.edu
> (Kevin A. Scaldeferri) wrote:
>
> >
> >They (Chevron) don't. They forward the information to a credit
> >service, which gives them a thumbs up or thumbs down. This is the
> >same thing that happens any time you use a credit card online. Your
> >billing information is shipped off to a service and they tell the
> >merchant if the info checks out.
> Do you have any information to support this contention? (Not to sound
> like "Cite?" Boob Weird) - but I find this to be inconsistent with the
> 'industry' practices. Supporting this type of verification for one
> segment of the merchant base would seem to be inefficient and
> inconsistent with the stated "same ease as cash" and contrary to the
> current advertising for the VISA logo cards..
Well experience would support the contention that many online
merhcants are able to verify (or have someone verify) certain
information. I have had a couple of credit card purchases rejected
because I fat fingered the billing address. I often have online
purchase sent to my office since I am not home during the day to
receive them (Yes - I have received calls from the company mailroom
asking, "What do want us to do with this barbeque grill that was just
delivered for you? I got a generator shipped to work once too.), so I
have different shipping addresses that differ from my credit card
billing address. I send flowers to my wife and girlfriend regularly
;-) Flower sites like FTD and Pro Flowers want your "billing address"
to verify credit card purchases.
The online merchants are different from brick an mortar businesses.
You are not there standing in front of them with your credit card.
They can't see your signature. They don't know if you are who you say
you are. They need a way of doing at least some type of verification.
Likewise, when you pay at the pump, there is no one there that can do
even a minimal verification. The alternative is the old way - you go
inside and sign you name... where someone SHOULD at least be checking
your signature against your card. Even "same ease as cash" doesn't
mean zero verification - you still have to sign for many in-person
transactions, and reasonable level of verification should be expected
for blind transactions.
> Would you know for a fact that this may be something that will be
> extended to other POS terminals and locations outside of California
> (or is this just another of those 'California anomalies' that y'all
> have to live with out there?
It's already beyond California. If you haven't seen it yet, then it's
probably just a matter of time.
Geoff Miller
Curtis CCR <curt...@sbcglobal.net> wites:
> Trying to think back 15 years. Macy*s only took their own card or
> American Express. The last time I paid attention to any card policies
> at Macy*s, the only thing I recall was a posted notice at the POS
> stating that they would nit accept Amex cards if the mag strip didn't
> work.
The card I was using at the time was a Macy's store card. And there
were no signs at the registers indicating an ID-checking policy. That
made it all the more annoying.
Geoff Miller
Michael R. Kesti <mke...@gv.net> writes:
> I saw a sign in a USPS office yesterday that said cards marked
> ask for ID would be refused.
What could possibly be the rationale for such a policy, given that
asking for ID lessens the likelihood of credit card fraud?
Bob Ward
<qine...@lnubb.pbz> wrote:
>-:On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 19:17:43 +0000 (UTC), ke...@sue.its.caltech.edu
>-:(Kevin A. Scaldeferri) wrote:
>-:
>-:>In article <kj1b2vkl6hi9vf5kv...@4ax.com>,
>-:>Scott in Aztlan <Newsgroup> wrote:
>-:>>On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 03:45:44 +0000 (UTC), ke...@inky.its.caltech.edu
>-:>>(Kevin A. Scaldeferri) wrote:
>-:>>
>-:>>>>Where would they get the ZIP code information at the point of sale?
>-:>>>
>-:>>>They (Chevron) don't. They forward the information to a credit
>-:>>>service, which gives them a thumbs up or thumbs down.
>-:>>
>-:>>Do you have any evidence that this occurs IN REAL TIME, while you are
>-:>>waiting there with the word "Authorizing" flashing on the pump?
>-:>
>-:>Since they are already authorizing your card in real time to begin
>-:>with, why do you think that this should be difficult?
>-:
>-:Do you know for a fact that they are?
>-:
>-:Not disputing your claim, just curious as to whether you are just
>-:assuming that they do or if you have some direct evidence that this
>-:does, in fact, occur.
>-:
>-:The reason I ask is there are still places that have a "floor limit" -
>-:any purchase that totals less than the floor limit is not called in
>-:for verification. With a floor limit of even $30, the vast majority of
>-:my gas purchases would fall below the floor limit.
>-:
>-:Furthermore, consider the connectivity of the typical gas station.
>-:This may no longer be true, but there was once a time when most of
>-:them transmitted and received data via satellite (you can still see
>-:the oval shaped dishes atop many gas station roofs). At best, they'll
>-:have a telephone line hooked up to a modem. If *every* gas pump dialed
>-:up to verify *every* transaction, there would be a shitload of
>-:contention for that modem line, wouldn't there?
>-:
Why would you not expect that the satellite linmk is still active?
>-:Again, I'm not saying that you're wrong, but it certainly wouldn't
>-:surprise me if most gasoline transactions are accepted "on faith" and
>-:uploaded in batch mode once or twice per day, and that verification
>-:was limited to looking up the credit card number in the computerized
>-:equivalent of the "hot list" book that you used to see at every cash
>-:register in America.
Curtis CCR
You are correct that Chevron doesn't have it. The local dealer or
company owned station definitely doesn't have it. Chevron Credit
Bank, N.A. (a chartered and regulated bank that issues credit cards)
does have direct connectivity to the clearing houses. So from a
practical standpoint, they are asking you for information that they
already have (through their connections) for verification. Those card
readers on the pump are clearing through the Chevron bank, and it's
that bank asking for the verification information, not the local
dealer.
Geoff Miller
Jim Hupf <Jim...@alumni.liu.edu> writes:
> Curious about that statement - how do they have the card
> holders zip code? Address information usually is NOT
> shared with merchants by CC issuers!
Is there any reason why the customer's ZIP code couldn't be
encoded onto the card's magnetic strip by the issuer? The
cardholder would've had to provide this information as part
of his credit application, anyway.
Kevin A. Scaldeferri
Scott in Aztlan <Newsgroup> wrote:
>
>>Since they are already authorizing your card in real time to begin
>>with, why do you think that this should be difficult?
>
No, but I know that your supposition is wrong. When I recently moved
and changed the address with my credit card company, my old zip code
was rejected and my new zip code accepted by the Chevron I frequently
fill up at.
>Furthermore, consider the connectivity of the typical gas station.
>This may no longer be true, but there was once a time when most of
>them transmitted and received data via satellite (you can still see
>the oval shaped dishes atop many gas station roofs). At best, they'll
>have a telephone line hooked up to a modem. If *every* gas pump dialed
>up to verify *every* transaction, there would be a shitload of
>contention for that modem line, wouldn't there?
A reasonably modern system would just maintain a connection or pool of
connections and not take the time to reinitialize a modem connection
on every transaction.
Given that it only takes a couple seconds to do the authorization, and
that it takes a couple minutes to fill up, and most stations have 6-10
pumps, there isn't any really resource shortage.
Kevin A. Scaldeferri
Scott in Aztlan <Newsgroup> wrote:
>wrote:
>
>>The online merchants are different from brick an mortar businesses.
>>You are not there standing in front of them with your credit card.
>>They can't see your signature. They don't know if you are who you say
>>you are. They need a way of doing at least some type of verification.
>
>pump contact the issuing bank, send in your ZIP code, CC number, etc.,
>and get a thumbs-up/thumbs-down response, all in the 2 or 3 seconds
>that the word "Authorizing" is flashing on the display?
Yes, quite easily. With an always-on connection to the network, it
should only take a couple hundred milliseconds, at most.
>
>If so, then it's even more puzzling why Chevron rejected my attempt to
>use my MasterCard since I *know* I punched in the correct billing ZIP
>code.
Because it was the first time you used the card there. I already
explained that to you.
Ernie Klein
Bob Ward <bob....@verizon.net> wrote:
§1747.8 of the CA Civil Code
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=67606127794+1+0+0&WA
ISaction=retrieve
-Ernie-
jh...@mindspring.com
(Kevin A. Scaldeferri) wrote:
>
>Because it was the first time you used the card there. I already
>explained that to you.
>
this would appear to be in conflict with your previous statements -
why would it be rejected the first time? Again you are describing a
highly inefficient and costly procedure considering the number of one
time only purchases that are made at gas dealers by transient
travelers who never return for another purchase.
Definitely makes most of your remarks appear to be pure speculation on
your part!
jh...@mindspring.com
wrote:
>
>Is there any reason why the customer's ZIP code couldn't be
>encoded onto the card's magnetic strip by the issuer? The
>cardholder would've had to provide this information as part
>of his credit application, anyway.
and when they moved or otherwise changed their address?
jh...@mindspring.com
You ready shouldn't encourage the cite 'em troll by giving it the
information!
jh...@mindspring.com
wrote:
>
>What could possibly be the rationale for such a policy, given that
>asking for ID lessens the likelihood of credit card fraud?
The policy is dictated or rather required under the terms of the
Merchant agreement that merchants (including the USPS) agrees to when
they are given the authorization to accept the CCs for payments.
And if you think that asking for ID has any material advantage to the
reduction of _real_ credit card fraud, I know someone who can give you
a good deal on a major nyc bridge!
Gordon Burditt
>This may no longer be true, but there was once a time when most of
>them transmitted and received data via satellite (you can still see
>the oval shaped dishes atop many gas station roofs). At best, they'll
>have a telephone line hooked up to a modem. If *every* gas pump dialed
>up to verify *every* transaction, there would be a shitload of
>contention for that modem line, wouldn't there?
If a dialup modem has to dial for every authorization, it's
unlikely it can connect and get authorization in 2-3 seconds
(just getting the phone answered in 2-3 seconds is a problem),
contention or not.
It is likely that you've got one computer running ALL the gas pumps
and the cash registers. If it uses a single 300 bits/second modem
(1970's technology) dialed up all the time, then at 3 seconds of
line time per transaction and 20 transactions per hour per pump,
you can handle up to 60 pumps before the line saturates. With only
20 pumps, long waits would be rare. Modern modems run at 100 times
that speed. A single ISDN line runs at 200 times that speed and
ISDN can dial and connect within 3 seconds, so the computer could
try a cost-saving strategy (e.g. hang up if there's nobody pumping,
or hang up if there has been no request for 2 minutes, or whatever).
>Again, I'm not saying that you're wrong, but it certainly wouldn't
>surprise me if most gasoline transactions are accepted "on faith" and
>uploaded in batch mode once or twice per day, and that verification
>was limited to looking up the credit card number in the computerized
>equivalent of the "hot list" book that you used to see at every cash
>register in America.
Payment systems can do that validation AND address verification
within seconds (sub-second usually). I have written a web-page
interface to one for an ISP and tested it. Speed of response was
essentially instant, compared with the user's 56k-modem dialup line.
That particular system used a dedicated line to the payment service.
Whether or not gas stations actually use this, I don't know, but
it's available.
Gordon L. Burditt
Bob Ward
<eckleins...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>-:In article <4i8b2v4pa965hgvs2...@4ax.com>,
>-: Bob Ward <bob....@verizon.net> wrote:
>-:
>-:> On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:49:44 GMT, "Arthur L. Rubin"
>-:> <216-...@mcimail.com> wrote:
>-:>
>-:> >-:Curtis CCR wrote:
>-:> >-:
>-:> >-:> I guess knowing where your customer are from has some value. I have
>-:> >-:> been to a number of stores that ask for zip codes (Toys R Us is one I
>-:> >-:> can think of right off the top of my head). They are insterested in
>-:> >-:> where their customers are from - not necessarily zeroing in on
>-:> >-:> *exactly* where you live (how far do people drive to shop at our
>-:> >-:> store? Etc) In such a case, you could give them a bogus zip and it
>-:> >-:> wouldn't matter.
>-:> >-:
>-:> >-:Radio Shack -- but they stopped doing it when told it was a
>-:> >-:violation of state law in California.
>-:> >-:
>-:>
>-:> Here we go again - what state law in California would that be?
>-:>
>-:> I know that there was a law passed in California a few years ago that
>-:> forbade clerks to write down credit card numbers to "verify" a check
>-:> for cashing, but the simple act of requesting an address for
>-:> demographic information, or for a mailing list? I don't think so,
>-:> Bunkie - let's see your evidence.
>-:>
>-:§1747.8 of the CA Civil Code
>-:
>-:http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=67606127794+1+0+0&WA
>-:ISaction=retrieve
>-:
>-:-Ernie-
>-:> --
Apparently you are referring to the following:
:1747.8. (a) Except as provided in subdivision (c), no person, firm,
:partnership, association, or corporation which accepts credit cards
:for the transaction of business shall do either of the following:
: (1) Request, or require as a condition to accepting the credit
:card as payment in full or in part for goods or services, the
:cardholder to write any personal identification information upon the
:credit card transaction form or otherwise.
If so, could you PLEASE explain how this would render Radio Shack's
former practice illegal under California law, as you claimed above?
Radio Shack's request was not made as a condition to accepting the
credit card in payment - they made a point of requesting this
information from ALL customers.
Bob Ward
>-:On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 16:15:28 -0800, Ernie Klein
>-:<eckleins...@pacbell.net> wrote:
>-:
>-:>In article <4i8b2v4pa965hgvs2...@4ax.com>,
>-:> Bob Ward <bob....@verizon.net> wrote:
>-:>
>-:>> On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:49:44 GMT, "Arthur L. Rubin"
>-:>> <216-...@mcimail.com> wrote:
>-:>>
>-:>> >-:Curtis CCR wrote:
>-:>> >-:
>-:>> >-:> I guess knowing where your customer are from has some value. I have
>-:>> >-:> been to a number of stores that ask for zip codes (Toys R Us is one I
>-:>> >-:> can think of right off the top of my head). They are insterested in
>-:>> >-:> where their customers are from - not necessarily zeroing in on
>-:>> >-:> *exactly* where you live (how far do people drive to shop at our
>-:>> >-:> store? Etc) In such a case, you could give them a bogus zip and it
>-:>> >-:> wouldn't matter.
>-:>> >-:
>-:>> >-:Radio Shack -- but they stopped doing it when told it was a
>-:>> >-:violation of state law in California.
>-:>> >-:
>-:>>
>-:>> Here we go again - what state law in California would that be?
>-:>>
>-:>> I know that there was a law passed in California a few years ago that
>-:>> forbade clerks to write down credit card numbers to "verify" a check
>-:>> for cashing, but the simple act of requesting an address for
>-:>> demographic information, or for a mailing list? I don't think so,
>-:>> Bunkie - let's see your evidence.
>-:>>
>-:>§1747.8 of the CA Civil Code
>-:>
>-:>http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/waisgate?WAISdocID=67606127794+1+0+0&WA
>-:>ISaction=retrieve
>-:>
>-:>-Ernie-
>-:>> --
>-:>>
>-:>> The time for action is past! NOW is the time for the senseless bickering
>-:
>-:
>-:You ready shouldn't encourage the cite 'em troll by giving it the
>-:information!
I looked it up - he failed to provide the information he claimed.
Gordon Burditt
>>>pump contact the issuing bank, send in your ZIP code, CC number, etc.,
>>>and get a thumbs-up/thumbs-down response, all in the 2 or 3 seconds
>>>that the word "Authorizing" is flashing on the display?
>>
>
>Given a dedicated network connection, of course.
Or given a dedicated 300 bits/second modem line. They had those
in the 1970's.
Gordon L. Burditt
Bob Ward
wrote:
>-:
>-:
>-:Michael R. Kesti <mke...@gv.net> writes:
>-:
>-:> I saw a sign in a USPS office yesterday that said cards marked
>-:> ask for ID would be refused.
>-:
>-:
>-:What could possibly be the rationale for such a policy, given that
>-:asking for ID lessens the likelihood of credit card fraud?
>-:
>-:
The rationale is that the card states that it is not valid unless
signed - Can you provide a driver's license that lists your legal name
as "Check ID"?
Kevin A. Scaldeferri
<Jim...@alumni.liu.edu> wrote:
>On Thu, 16 Jan 2003 00:32:31 +0000 (UTC), ke...@inky.its.caltech.edu
>(Kevin A. Scaldeferri) wrote:
>
>>
>>Because it was the first time you used the card there. I already
>>explained that to you.
>>
>
>
>this would appear to be in conflict with your previous statements -
>why would it be rejected the first time?
It wasn't rejected by the clearinghouse. However, it is Chevron's
general practice (at least in this area and for the last couple years)
to always have you present the card to the clerk the first time you
use it at a particular station.
I'm not arguing whether or not this has a real effect on the incidence
of credit card fraud. Nor am I arguing whether the zip code check has
any significant effect either. Nor am I saying that it isn't somewhat
confusing what is going on, since the message on the pump is the same
as if you typed in the wrong zip code. It would be less confusing if
they just bypassed the zip code check on first time sales and
immediately instructed you to come to the cashier.
However, this is their system, and I have gotten confirmation of this
from people with family members who work for Chevron (not as pump
jockeys).
> Again you are describing a
>highly inefficient and costly procedure considering the number of one
>time only purchases that are made at gas dealers by transient
>travelers who never return for another purchase.
Costly? That clerk is getting paid the same amount whether he slides
your card or twiddles his thumb for that time. The POS systems are
already there.
And, I'm pretty sure that you're wrong that one-time customers make up
a large portion of most gas station's business. Don't you get most of
your gas from one or two stations?
Ernie Klein
Bob Ward <bob....@verizon.net> wrote:
Seems clear, that once a credit card is presented, the business cannot
ask or require any personal information unless it is necessary to
complete the transaction (such as an address in order to deliver the
goods). You may not understand (or like) it, but the Attorney General
in CA didn't have any such problem.
And BTW I didn't claim anything, I only provided the CA law that
prevents business from recording personal info.
-Ernie-
jh...@mindspring.com
(Kevin A. Scaldeferri) wrote:
>
>And, I'm pretty sure that you're wrong that one-time customers make up
>a large portion of most gas station's business. Don't you get most of
>your gas from one or two stations?
No.
Kenneth Crudup
Kevin A. Scaldeferri <ke...@inky.its.caltech.edu> wrote:
>And, I'm pretty sure that you're wrong that one-time customers make up
>a large portion of most gas station's business. Don't you get most of
>your gas from one or two stations?
No, I get it from whomever's closest to me at the time I realize I need it.
-Kenny
--
Kenneth R. Crudup Sr. SW Engineer, Scott County Consulting, Los Angeles, CA
Home: 3801 E. Pacific Coast Hwy #9, Long Beach, CA 90804-2014 (562) 961-7300
Work: 2052 Alton Parkway, Irvine, CA 92606-4905 (949) 252-1111 X240
Arthur L. Rubin
>
> On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 14:49:49 GMT, "Arthur L. Rubin"
> <216-...@mcimail.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >Wal-Mart asks for ID for all credit card purchases.
>
> You must look suspicious, I have never been asked for ID when I made a
> purchase at wall-mart, either in NC or FL the two states where I have
> shopped in wal-marts!
It's official policy -- at least in CA and AZ. I suppose it might be
different in different states. (Yes, I know, official, written
policy in violation of the merchant agreements and possibly state law.)
--
Arthur L. Rubin 216-...@mcimail.com