Ancient Indian scripts

[gira...@juno.com]

March 31, 2011

 

Respected Scholars, Namaskar!

 

Ancient history of India (before 326 BC)

 

(1) In recent postings on BVP, subject of Swastika appeared. I was looking into the book, “A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India” by Delhi University lady professor-Upinder Singh. The book is nicely printed with many colorful plates of pottery pieces, ancient coins and Harappan seals with Indus valley signs. I did not find Swastika sign on any of the pottery pieces, or coins or Harappan seals presented in the book. I am puzzled. Please suggest me another book if possible that offers evidence of Swastika sign on ancient artifacts dating. In the known history after 1 AD India may have Swastikas. I remember Dr. Kalyanraman was talking about Swastika glyph.

 

(2) Now the topic on Brahmi script appeared on BVP list. I assume (please correct me if I were wrong) there was no Devanagari script at the time of PaNini. We have Indus –Harappan signs (may be 3000 BC). Then we have Kharosti and Brahmi before Devanagari and that too not before 500 BC. Was any inscription-short or long discovered that can be dated to the interim period? On the other hand in 1350 BC there was Cuneiform writing on mud tablets in the Middle East countries. Assuming that the ancient India had trade contacts with Middle East, any cuneiform tablets found in excavations in India? In recent posting of Dr. Pandurangi on Ranjit Pal article, Ranjit Pal is interested moving some part of ancient subcontinent history beyond Baluchistan into the ancient land of Persia. In that case some ancient Indian scholars, Bauddha Bhikkus-somebody might have come across Cuneiform script. The question is-any Cuneiform inscription tablets unearthed within the boundary of the subcontinent-specifically in the region now called the West Pakistan

 

(3) Assuming that there was no script for Sanskrit at the time of PaNini, and Yask (before Panini) were all grammars by PaNini and his predecessors composed orally and taught orally? That would be amazing feat.

 

(4) A king from Kerala around 1000 BC had trade contacts with Jewish king Solomon. There are Tamil words in Old Testament. Was any archeological excavations undertaken in Kerala to find out traces of some kind of writing in 1000 BC? Please enlighten us so we grow in our knowledge with you. Thanks. N.R.Joshi

 

 

____________________________________________________________
Groupon.com Official Site
1 huge daily deal on the best stuff to do in your city. Try it today!
Groupon.com

[Bhagwan Singh]

Dear Mr. Joshi, Swastika symbol is found on Indus seals, both singular and multiple in one sequence. It was probably a mark for panthas swast - auspicious be thy journey. Occasionally it is stylised. N.S. Rajaram had written a paper in 2004 on swastika Marks. It is both simple  and stylised (in that case the curved extension slightly rounded to give an impression of a wheel. As you correctly guess Panini and Yask could not have written their treatises without the help of written script, nor could Brahmanas and Aranyaks be composed and preserved orally. Writing system was very much there throughout. I West Asia knew only cuneiform system. Harappan seal with typical Harappan humped bull is reported to have been recovered from Kassie's. Harappan trade contact is proved by Harappan artifact covering the entire area. What I suggest is that cuneiform system was replaced and remodelled under the influence of Harappan script. And as professor A.H. Dani had conclusively proved Brahmi script was a modification of Semitic alphabet. Nagari script is a late development. All the scripts in India, Tibet, Burma etc. have their origin in Brahmi. See Alphabet by David  Diringer. Brahmi is supposed to have been developed by 700 BC. Both Yask and Panini may have used the script. But what was the nature of the script in between Harappan and Brahmi in India is uncertain, despite the fact that there was a writing system even during this period. BS   --- On Thu, 31/3/11, gira...@juno.com <gira...@juno.com> wrote:

-- अथ चेत्त्वमिमं धर्म्यं संग्रामं न करिष्यसि। ततः स्वधर्मं कीर्तिं च हित्वा पापमवाप्स्यसि।। तस्मादुत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिश्चयः। निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

<Assuming that there was no script for Sanskrit at the time of PaNini, and Yask (before Panini) were all grammars by PaNini and his predecessors composed orally and taught orally? That would be amazing feat.>

Amazing - yes, but not impossible.  Let us not forget that India is a land of śrutidharas. I heard from reliable persons that great Naiyāyikas like Mm. Kailāsa-Candra-Śiromaṇi never required a book while teaching. He knew by heart the entire work of Gadādhara! Kāmākhyānātha-Tarkavāgīśa had edited the Tattvacintāmaṇi, true, but, as knowledgeable persons will tell, he himself did not require a book. I request you to read the relevant discussions in the following works. 1 .Transmission sans écriture dans l’Inde ancient: J.E.M.Houben = Écrire et transmettre en Inde classique École française d’Extrême-Orient Paris2009 2.Introduction to the Paippalāda-Saṃhitā Vol . 3, Asiatic Society, Kolkata (to be released in April,2011): 3. Also read in S.P. Pandit’s Critical Notice in his edition of the Śaunakīya-Atharvaveda (1894-1898) how he was helped by Śrutidhara Vaidikas without books in reconstructing the text. This has been a puzzle to Western scholars who have produced and propagated many wrong ideas in ignorance of the ground realities in India. I do not blame well-minded scholars like Roth and Böhtlingk for this. They just could not comprehend the powers of Indian teachers and students. But why should the sons of the soil fail to understand the situation in India? Best wishes DB

--- On Thu, 31/3/11, gira...@juno.com <gira...@juno.com> wrote:

From: gira...@juno.com <gira...@juno.com> Subject: {भारतीयविद्वत्परिषत्} Ancient Indian scripts To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com

--

[subrahmanyam korada]

namo vidvdbhyah

It is quite unfortunate that people , without verifying the facts , go on assumptions , if not decisions --

lipa / liba = upadohe (upadoha=vr.ddhi.h) - dhAtUnAm anekArthatvam.

'sarvadhAtubhya in' , igupadhAt  kit ' (Un.Adi 4-557,559) -- lipi.h / libi.h (kr.s.i.h , r.s.i.h , s'uci.h, tUli.h . 'un.Adayo bahulam' (Panini 3-3-1)

'lipi-libi-sabdau paryAyau' - MAdhavIyadhAtuvr.tti and KaumudI (TudAdi)

limpati , lilepa, limpet, lipyAt , alipat (limpatIva tamo'n'gAni vars.atIvAnjanam nabha.h)

limpate , lilipe , alipata / alipta ,.... alIlapat

'lipi sici hvs'ca' (Pan 3-1-53) - lun'i   cve.h  an' , 'Atmanepades.vanyatarasyAm' (Pan 3-1-54) iti paks.e 'sic'.

limpa.h --  s'a - pratyaya.h  by 'anupasargAt  limpa-vinda-dhAri-pAri- vedyudeji-ceti-sAti-sAhibhyas'ca' (Pan3-1-138) .

'nau limpe.h vAcya.h' (VArtikam) - nilimpA devA.h .

lipikara.h , libikara.h -- when the following are there as  Upapadas 'kr.n~dhAtu gets t.a-pratyaya in 'hetu-tAcchIlya-Anulomyes.u ' and other senses (kr.n~o hetutAcchIlyAnulomyes.u'-Pan3-2-20)also --

'divA-vibhA-nis'A-prabhA-bhAs-kAra-anta-ananta-Adi-bahu-nAndI-kim-lipi-libi-bali-bhakti-kartr.-citra-ks.etra-samkhyA-janghA-bAhu-ahar-yat-tad-dhanus-arus.s.u' (Pan 3-2-21) .

In strIlin'ga there will be 'n'Ip'  by - 't.id.d.hAn.an~dvayasac-daghnac-mAtrac-tayap-t.hak-t.han~-kan~- kvarapa.h' (Pan 4-1-15) - lipikarI , libikarI .

Under ' indra-varun.a-bhava-s'arva-rudra-mr.d.a-himAran.ya-yava-yavana-mAtulA-cAryAn.Am  Anuk'(Pan4-1-49)  , KAtyAyana adds - 'yavanAllipyAm' -- yavanAnAm lipi.h yavanAnI .

PAn.inIyas'iks.A  enumerates the 'bad readers' --

gItI dIrghI s'ira.hkampI tathA likhitapAt.haka.h I
anarthajn~o'lpakan.t.has'ca s.ad.ete pAt.hakAdhamA.h II

'likhitapAt.haka' - is one who reads from a written text .

Earlier to Patanjali the order was - S'iks.A - VyAkaran.am - Veda .

By the time of Patanjali it was - S'iks.A - Veda - VyAkaran.am . Today either Veda or VyAkaran.am .

Lipi was there along with Language . One should not compare Sanskrit with other primitive Languages .

But it is named 'S'ruti' , i.e. 'learnt thru hearing'  and memorized . It is Upalaks.an.am to Vedangas etc.

Even today we teach Veda ,MahAbhAs.yam , KaumudI, Jyotis.am etc without a book , just like our Gurus did .

For that matter it is possible to teach Four different S'Astras in four different Languages .

While driving at high speed also it is not difficult to teach a S'Astra .

GarutmAn in Adiparva of MahAbhArata says that it wo'nt be amiss to declare one's capability .

It all depends upon the condition of Br.haspati (BuddhikAraka) and the Lord of Fifth place (BuddhisthAnam) in one's Horoscope and , of course , the LagnAdhipati as well .

Since one cannot do something it is not wise or justified  to remark that  nobody can do that .

In Andhra  ' As.t.AvadhAnam' ,'s'atAvadhAnam' , 'SahasrAvadhAnam', PancasahasrAvadhAnam' etc are performed and the figure there denotes the number of Pr.cchakas .

Who says that 'memorizing Veda , Vedangas , Upavedas, Dars'anas etc.' is difficult ?

Patanjali caushions - asti aprayukta.h (s'abda.h) iti sAhasamAtrameva . similarly when we cannot persieve it is not wise to draw conclusions sheerly depending on 'anumanam' .

dhanyo'smi

2011/4/1 Dipak Bhattacharya <dbhattach...@yahoo.com>

--
Prof.Korada Subrahmanyam
Professor of Sanskrit,
CALTS,
University of Hyderabad 500046
Ph:09866110741(R),91-40-23010741,040-23133660(O)

[Dipak Bhattacharya]

I am sorry for posting my views in reply to a wrong letter. I resubmit it. The exact conclusions are not clear. Paanini's rules concern only the oral speech. There is no rule in the Ashtaadhyaayii regarding the written language. There is reference to lipi but that is foreign script not meant for the Sanskrit language. When this is considered along with the emphasis on the oral tradition among Vaidikas the use of script for the Vedas in the Vedic age has to be ruled out. I may mention my experience with a Vaidika. Some one introduced me as one trying to recover a lost Vedic text. 'How?' the Vaidika asked. When I told of the critical edition of the lost text I had been doing he smiled and said 'That is not recovering the Vedas. Vedoddhara.na is possible only by keeping it in ka.n.tha.' Obviously, the written version had no value with him. I respect that stand but that has to be given due recognition by recognising the environment where such views could grow. It must have been much more so in the Vedic age. That has to be given due recognition. Those who try to show the use of scripts by Vaidikas in the Vedic age against the evidence of such living tradition ignore and underestimate a great heritage of India. What I have said concerns only the Vaidikas. It does not mean the absence of the use of scripts among other circles. Evidences show that traders and administrators used scripts from very early times. Best DB    --- On Sun, 3/4/11, subrahmanyam korada <kora...@gmail.com> wrote:

[subrahmanyam korada]

namo vidvadbhyah

Thje conclusions were given clearly - Lipi was there along with Language and Oral tradition has been there i,e. it is alive today .

No doubt , Vyakaran.am  is about spoken language .

I was trying to show that  Pan.ni and his predecessors had had the knowledge of Lipi and there were Lipikaras/Lipikaries . The Lipi at that time was related to Sanskrit and , may be, other  languages too .

I was answering the question of Prof Joshi etc.- whether Panini etc knew about Lipi or not .
We do not have evidence to exhibit that Sanskrit at the time of Panini did not have Lipi at all .

The second question was about oral tradition - still some Westerners (even some Indians , who follow them) are skeptical about the MedhAs'akti of Indian scholars  . This had led them to comment that there were two or three Kalidasas etc .
dhanyo'smi

2011/4/3 Dipak Bhattacharya <dbhattach...@yahoo.com>

[rama.b...@wipro.com]

Dear Administrator,

 

Please unsubscribe this email id from the list and I have subscribed my personal id.

 

thanks.

 

regards,

Ramachandra

[prafulla mishra]

happy hindunavavarsa for all prafulla k mishra

---

From: Dipak Bhattacharya <dbhattach...@yahoo.com>
To: bvpar...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sun, April 3, 2011 9:08:52 PM