Dead short?

[Benjamin McCafferty]

Morning all--
After my recent total teardown and clean and rebuild (B2, PID, rotary), I finally got parts yesterday. I replaced both over-temp switches (one per boiler) and the thermoprobe in the brew boiler. I have re-attached all wires per my pre-teardown photographs and triple checked them all.

When I turn the machine on, my breaker trips--it is an arc fault and ground fault breaker, so not sure which one is tripping it, but since the outlets on this circuit are all new and otherwise functioning properly, I'm assuming it's a short to ground.

So far I tried pulling one wire from each boiler and turning on; no change. The big red switch does feel a little chunky, but not overly so. The machine has been on a timer for about 7 years, so the switch normally hasn't been used.

Other notes--
--Is there a "backwards" way to install the overlimit switches? I assume they're non-directional?
--My citric solution took the plating off the heating elements--they are now shiny copper. Can this cause a fault?
--Can the big red switch cause a ground fault?
--Are there other really obvious things I should test?

Really looking forward to that first shot...hoping it will be today...

best,
bmc

Sent from my apple IIe

[Todd Salzman]

When checking to see if the boiler is causing the breaker to trip, pull both wires off the heating element and then turn it on.  Do one boiler and then the other.

You can also learn more about this on this video. At 12:58 I start on the boiler section.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UIiLeRdVWAU

Todd

Whole Latte Love

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[Benjamin McCafferty]

Took the big red switch apart, and it's not terrible, but my new leading theory is that it's tripping the arc fault breaker. Will jumper the wires to bypass and see what happens.

bmc

Sent from my apple IIe

[Benjamin McCafferty]

Shout out to Todd Salzman, again, for going above and beyond on a Saturday morning. 18 minutes after my original email to the group, he and I were on the phone.

I have a dead steam boiler element, and parts are on their way.

All the best,

bmc

Sent from my apple IIe

[StevieG.]

Hi Ben - just had the first breaker trip in the 10 years I have had my BII.  Saw this post, and have the video cued up, and can do the testing, but pretty sure I have a steam boiler element issue just because of the occasional overheating with a new Jaeger.  So will start with the unplugging the wires and checking resistance and short to ground.

I didnt see any videos of how to remove the boiler in order to remove the element, is there a guide or other post that will show those steps?

Sure missed my morning shots...

Thanks,

Steve

[herman dickens]

You might have a bad pressurestat. Ben and I both got bad jagers. You can remove the steam element but you need an impact wrench and a strap wrench to hold the boiler. There's a hole in the bottom of the unit that you can get the socket through. Make sure your pstat is not bad first

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[Ben McCafferty]

Agree with Herman, but I would take the time to pull the boiler and not try to do it in place. Remember to drain it first. 

And before that, with machine unplugged, pull the power wired off the element and check resistance across the element. Something like 13-17 is normal, maybe a bit less. 

Overheating doesn't jive in my mind with a bad element--no heating would be more likely.

Also check the over limit switches--mine disintegrated and shorted (with some assistance, ahem...)

Best,

bmc

Sent from my iPhone

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[StevieG.]

Good morning!

Finally getting around to troubleshooting after some heavy travel weeks, but fortunately not the days that Delta was offline :)

How can you drain the boiler without the pump?

I disconnected the line on top of the steam boiler where the p-stat connects, and removed the knurled nut from the pump intake line, and some water came out but it doesn't look like the whole boiler amount.

Getting about 13.5 ohms across the element connectors on the steam boiler, and 13.4 on the brew boiler.  

• Steam boiler disconnected, power on doesn't pops breaker.  
  
• Brew boiler connected, power on pops breaker.  
  
• Steam boiler connected, brew boiler disconnected doesn't pop breaker.  
  

This is with the water tank pressure switch disconnected, so nothing else is powered up.  Now wondering why I am getting the same resistance across both elements, and if something other than the element could be shorted?

Thanks for your help!

Steve

[StevieG.]

Ben, also tested the over limit switches on top, no resistance and red buttons don't depress.  Checking Todd's video and they seem to be functioning properly.

Thx,

Steve

[Graeme Burton]

Does the breaker pop immediately when machine cold? Trying to work if you have an over current situation (short) or an earth leakage fault (eg water mixing with electricity etc). Is it a gfi/rcd  breaker‎ or just a current over load breaker?

Graeme

From: StevieG. Sent: Sunday, 21 August 2016 23:31 To: Brewtus Reply To: bre...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Dead short?

[StevieG.]

Hi Graeme - it is a GFI that pops, which happened also when I plugged it into a GFI on a different circuit.

Just plugged everything in with the tank pressure switch active, but the brew boiler element disconnected.  Lights on and pump running.

Thx!

Steve

[StevieG.]

OK, needed some corrections here:

• Steam boiler disconnected, brew boiler connected power on pops breaker.  

• Steam boiler connected, brew boiler disconnected doesn't pop breaker. 

On Sunday, August 21, 2016 at 11:53:44 AM UTC-4, GRB wrote:

[Graeme Burton]

Could be a crack or pinhole in the element in that case. I have seen this before in a commercial machine. Also did you check resistance is very high (open circuit) between boiler and element leg (with machine off and element disconnected of course) ?

Graeme

From: StevieG. Sent: Monday, 22 August 2016 00:04

[StevieG.]

I think the battery in my tester just went bad, will get another one and check that soon.  I was going to say shortly, but that just would have been a bad choice of words :)

At first it was reading around 114 ohms and slowly climbing, but then I stopped getting any reading at all when on a connector and the copper pipe to the group head, and same thing connector to top of boiler.  Touching the probe tips together gave a normal 0.0 reading, so think the battery doesn't have enough juice to test the connector to boiler body.

Steve

[StevieG.]

OK, new battery - no reading at all, same display as when probes are not touching.  Normal reading when probes touching

On Sunday, August 21, 2016 at 12:11:15 PM UTC-4, GRB wrote:

[Ira]

Hello StevieG.,

Sunday, August 21, 2016, 9:53:28 AM, you wrote:

OK, new battery - no reading at all, same display as when probes are not touching.  Normal reading when probes touching

What kind of meter. A GFI can be set off by resistances high enough some meters can't measure them. My Fluke has no problem seeing them, the Harbor Freight meter, not so much. Also, try plugging it into a non-GFI outlet to heat it up a bit and see if that measurement changes, well only if you understand the potential consequences and realize that you need to turn the machine on before plugging it in and unplug it before touching it again. Also, if you have a 3 pin to 2 pin power adapter so you can isolate ground, use that to let it heat up and then measure the voltage from the case to ground. Again, be very careful, touching the wrong thing could conceptually kill you. Should be 0 or close to 0. If it's 117 or close to that, you likely found the problem. Then unplug the problem boiler leads and see if it changes.

I'm perfectly comfortable doing stuff like that, but there are some risks associated with those sorts of troubleshooting methods. Make sure you understand before you start and make sure no dogs, cats or children can get anywhere near where you're working.

-- Ira

[StevieG.]

Hi Ira - My meter is a cheapo Greenlee most appropriate for seeing if an outlet has power,  probably didn't cost more than $30.

The Brewtus doesn't pop the GFI when the brew boiler is not connected, the reservoir pressure switch closed, and the power switch on.

The pump runs, opened the hot water wand to refill the system, getting water and steam.  Letting it heat up now.

With the volt meter probes plugged into the brew boiler wires, I am getting around 28 volts until the steam boiler light goes out, and hear a switch close, then get 122v. 

Just by process of elimination, and without verifying a short to ground, does this isolate the brew boiler element as the culprit?

Thanks all for your help!

Steve

[Ira]

Hello StevieG.,

Sunday, August 21, 2016, 1:25:26 PM, you wrote:

Just by process of elimination, and without verifying a short to ground, does this isolate the brew boiler element as the culprit? Thanks all for your help!

Almost certainly, but look at the bottom of the boiler and make sure there is no dirt or stuff that could be causing a high resistance connection on the outside of the boiler.

> With the volt meter probes plugged into the brew boiler
> wires, I am getting around 28 volts until the steam boiler
> light goes out, and hear a switch close, then get 122v.

Also, if you disconnect the wires to the problem element, does that 122 go back to zero or close to that?

-- Ira

[StevieG.]

Hi Ira - the probes are in the female connectors that attach to the element connectors, so they are disconnected from the element with these readings.  If they were connected to the element with power, the GFI would trip.  

There doesn't seem to be any dirt or corrosion on the bottom of the brew boiler, the unit is still fairly clean. 

Thx,

Steve

[Ben McCafferty]

Can't remember whether you tried this, but connect wires from brew boiler to steam boiler element and leave steam wires disconnected (and taped off). See if the gfi trips. If not, I think you've narrowed it down to the brew element, no?

Best,

bmc

Sent from my iPhone

--

[StevieG.]

Hi Ben,

Thanks for that step - just did it and all good with the wires swapped.  I agree it is narrowed down to the brew element with this last test.

Thanks!

Steve

[Ben McCafferty]

Awesome. Now you just have to swap the beast out...

b

Sent from my iPhone

--

[Benjamin McCafferty]

Actually, still thinking this through.

Did you say that the gfi popped right away, even when the machine was cold, with normal wiring hookups? And only popped when brew was connected and steam disconnected, but not the other way around?

What’s going through my head is whether the brew circuit would have power when the machine is cold, i.e. if you put the brew wires on steam element and it didn’t trip cold, I wonder if there’s still a chance that it will trip when hot.

But, if the machine tripped cold with normal wiring, and doesn’t with reversed wiring, I think you’re good. It would be interesting to try connecting the steam wires to brew boiler too, and see if that trips cold or not (with the other disconnected of course, and then with both connected to opposite boilers)

Hmmm…

bmc

[Benjamin McCafferty]

P.S. My point being—the steam boiler has priority, so when cold, power is going to steam and not brew (but not sure if there’s a quick self test, etc. to brew that would trip it cold).

b

[StevieG.]

Hi Ben - It pops the GFI with everything cold, and only when brew was connected and steam disconnected, but not the other way around.  With the steam boiler normally wired and the brew boiler not connected, everything functions.

Will call Todd today to order a part, then on with the fun :)

Thanks much,

Steve

[Benjamin McCafferty]

Roger that, sounds like you’ve got it pegged then.

I think you asked how to drain boilers—and in my experience it’s a lot easier to replace an element with the boiler out of the machine.

I’ve always just cracked the lower pipe (cold, of course, and the upper pipe for airlock), and let it drain out. If you put two feet of the case into a sink, the water will drain down the folded edge of the base and into the sink, avoiding the mess I made the first time years ago…

Be sure to ask Todd for some of the NSF sealant for the boiler (and any other non-flare fittings you might take apart). But be advised—it’s like super-glue—it sets up very fast so once the parts come in contact you need to keep them moving quickly to their final position or they’ll stick where they are.  I’ve also used yellow teflon tape (the thick stuff for gas) successfully, and have several parts with it in service for years at a time and not leaking. A little more forgiving. But I do like the NSF stuff, it’s quick and easy but you just have to learn to work with it. Also, if parts are warm/hot it sets even faster. I did have a lady at WLL service once tell me I had to wait 12 hours for it to dry before pressure, and that’s not true. It is ready to go pretty much as soon as you get things back together. Again, lots of iterations with no leaks ever that I recall.

Best,

bmc

[Graeme Burton]

Good thinking Ben. But I think only one element wire is switched through‎ the pstat? Therefore there is power to one, side of the element and that can then short to earth no matter what the pstat is doing. Does that sound right?

Graeme

From: StevieG. Sent: Monday, 22 August 2016 22:58

To: Brewtus Reply To: bre...@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Dead short?

[Benjamin McCafferty]

Yeah, Graeme, trying to sort this in my head also.  My memory is that you have 120 to the “in” side of the pstat, with continuity to the normally closed terminal (steam boiler) so it would send power to steam when cold and under pressure. Once steam comes to pressure, the pstat switches to normally open terminal and sends power to brew element (via PID for temp control, yes?).  That was my point—if the gfi pops on brew wiring when cold, I’m still not clear that it’s just the element. And especially since he got normal readings for resistance on both elements. If the element is cracked/shorting via water to ground, I’d expect resistance to be something other than normal, unless the crack was appearing when hot, which it’s not.

Could a pstat wire (or other hot wire) be shorting to ground? But wouldn’t that cause the gfi to trip for either boiler (i.e. since if it was steam, it would trip when cold, brew would trip when hot, both should trip if the short was prior to the input side of the pstat?).

More thoughts?

b

[Graeme Burton]

I think tests Stevie has done isolate the problem to the brew element. And I think it's power being conducted to earth via the element leg not connected to the pstat. May not be able to measure resistance from leg to boiler with handheld meter. It appears to be a gfi fault so it can be caused by very little current going to earth. Prob need an insulation break down tester to measure. Hmm but always ???!

Graeme

From: Benjamin McCafferty Sent: Monday, 22 August 2016 23:19 To: bre...@googlegroups.com

[Benjamin McCafferty]

OK, but why would it register the ground fault from the non-pstat-connected leg when cold, i.e when no power is going to the element yet?

b

[Graeme Burton]

Isn't it getting power to that leg during one part of the AC cycle? It doesn't heat because the pstat is causing an open circuit to the other leg.

Graeme

From: Benjamin McCafferty Sent: Monday, 22 August 2016 23:49

[herman dickens]

I wonder what would happen with the steam leads connected to the brew boiler?

b

b

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[StevieG.]

Hi Herman,

I did that check, and it did not pop the GFI.  The pump ran, lights were on - this was with the steam boiler wires connected to the brew boiler.

Thanks!

Steve

[herman dickens]

Then I don't think it's the element.

--

[Benjamin McCafferty]

Gotcha.  I thought it was reverse from this Graeme—that power goes to one side of the pstat, and the closed contact sends power to one side of the element—and the other side of the element goes to neutral. If it is as you describe, then the pstat would be connected to neutral and I’m almost certain that’s not the case.

I’ll try to pull my cover off later and have a peek.

bmc

[Benjamin McCafferty]

Wait a second—I thought you said this *did* pop the gfi. (What you said to Herman). 

Here’s what I think you’ve found, please correct if needed:

With all normal wiring, gfi trips immediately when cold and turned on.

With both boilers disconnected, gfi does not trip.

With wiring reversed to opposite boilers, gfi trips.

With brew wires connected to steam boiler, steam wires disconnected, gfi does not trip.

With steam wires connected to brew boiler, brew wires disconnected, gfi trips.

OK, that’s it—what you said to Herman below is directly opposite to my last statement, so please let us know.

best,

bmc

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[Stephen Gould]

Sorry guys - I did not connect the steam boiler wires to the brew boiler. 

 It was the brew boiler wires connected to the steam boiler that did not pop the GFI.

My bad.

Thanks,

Steve

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[Benjamin McCafferty]

So let’s try steam boiler wires to brew boiler, with brew wires disconnected and taped, and see what happens there. If that trips the gfi, I’d say you have your solution.

b

[herman...@gmail.com]

I agree with Ben.

Sent from my android device.

[Stephen Gould]

Hi guys,

Ok, connected steam boiler wires to brew boiler – it did NOT pop the GFI, and is now coming up to temperature.

So, looks like it is not the boiler element – what’s next to check?  

Steve

From: <bre...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of <herman...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday, August 22, 2016 at 1:16 PM
To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Dead short?

[Benjamin McCafferty]

I suspected as much.  Gotta run for now, will think on it and look up the wiring diagram later.

b

[Stephen Gould]

Update – after being at 93 for few minutes, the GFI popped and the display is reading E1.  

Steve

[herman dickens]

Have you ever replaced the pid? I had an issue years ago when my temp sensor went bad and I got the e1 error. I think the wire burned and was intermittently shorting. Your problem could be there.

On Mon, Aug 22, 2016 at 2:54 PM, Stephen Gould <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:

Update – after being at 93 for few minutes, the GFI popped and the display is reading E1.  

Steve

From: <bre...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Benjamin McCafferty <bmac...@me.com>
Reply-To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday, August 22, 2016 at 2:48 PM
To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Dead short?

I suspected as much.  Gotta run for now, will think on it and look up the wiring diagram later.

b

On Aug 22, 2016, at 11:43, Stephen Gould <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi guys,

Ok, connected steam boiler wires to brew boiler – it did NOT pop the GFI, and is now coming up to temperature.

So, looks like it is not the boiler element – what’s next to check?  

Steve

b

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[herman dickens]

I'm sorry I didn't ask before but how old is your machine? Have you had any problems leading up to this? I have a bII and ended up replacing the controller and doing a pid conversion earlier this year and it solved several problems I was having.

b

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[Stephen Gould]

Bone stock except for Jaeger p-stat, no other issues on this 10+ old machine.

I'm ok with putting some $$ into it if it is that time.

New controller and pid?  If I'm doing that I might as well go rotary too.

Thanks,

Steve

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[Ira]

Hello Stephen,

Monday, August 22, 2016, 1:22:14 PM, you wrote:

I'm ok with putting some $$ into it if it is that time.

Where is it located. If you're near Los Angeles, bring it by and I'll help you figure out the problem. I have spares of most everything and another machine to compare it to.

-- Ira

[Stephen Gould]

Thanks Ira, I am in the Atlanta area.  It would be hard to put in my carry on, but I truly appreciate the offer!

Steve

From: <bre...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Ira <laz...@gmail.com>
Organization: LA Zaino
Reply-To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday, August 22, 2016 at 4:32 PM
To: Stephen Gould <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Dead short?

--

[herman dickens]

I installed both but didn't go rotary, yet :). I just installed the joysticks on mine as well last Friday. I'm still not sure about the rotary upgrade but may do that in the future. I really like the foam knife and I installed that around the same time as the controller and pid kit. The e1 code is for over temp  so the pid may fix the problem. It would still be nice to know for sure that's it though. If it's 10 years old replacing the controller at the same time might save you some work down the road. I installed my controller first because I suspected that the problems I had were because of that. The controller fixed my problems but after a couple of days I installed the pid anyway. It's been trouble free since then. If you replace both I'd replace them one at the time to verify that you don't create a problem on the installation. In your case I would do the pid first. That said I would try to verify the problem is in the controller so you don't fry the new pid. Check the thermowell and see if you see any problems with the wiring. That's where my problem was.

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[Chris Carpentieri]

Same thing just happened to me.  The wires to the old AKO temp probe shorted because the insulation had dried and cracked off.

Sometimes the brew boiler would come up to temp and sometimes it wouldn't.  When I removed the temp probe I found that the wires were bare inside the probe and thereafter got the E1 error.

Just replaced the PID and temp probe with the Gicar using the kit from Wholelattelove and all is well.

Chris

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[StevieG.]

Here is what I found, the temp probe wires are cracked going into the well.

Hopefully the picture is visible.

All my other wiring looks to be OK, with no browned or burnt connectors.

Thanks,

Steve

[herman dickens]

I figured that was part, or all, of your problem. Those probes and their wiring don't last forever. If I were you I would get the pid rather than replacing the controller but you can probably just replace the temp probe. I think I still have the temp probe and controller from mine if you get in a jam and can't get parts. Mine was working fine when I installed the pid.

--

[Ben McCafferty]

Go Herman!

bmc

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[Stephen Gould]

Anybody know what wrench size the temp probe is?  A 17mm open end fits but loosely, and that thing is not budging. 

I suppose I could cut the wire and use a socket on a breaker bar?

Steve

From: <bre...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Ben McCafferty <bmac...@me.com>
Reply-To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Monday, August 22, 2016 at 5:30 PM
To: <bre...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: Dead short?

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[Benjamin McCafferty]

Yeah, the new one comes with a new nut, so fire away. Impact hammer? This is the other fun side of the NSF sealant...it's a lot like loctite red.

b

Sent from my apple IIe

[herman dickens]

My machine was hot when I removed it and I think that helped. Be sure all of the pressure is off. You could probably heat it up and try it then and it might help. I unplugged mine and when the steam pressure dropped I opened both valves and then removed the plug.

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[StevieG.]

Hi folks - update:  with a 17mm deep impact socket and a cordless impact wrench, the old temp probe came right out.

WLL tech support informed me the probes for the old AKO's are no longer available, so installing the PID.   

First problem - the unit and the wiring diagram in the instructions do not look identical.  On the unit, the F and N on the M2 block are reversed from the drawing, and the drawing has no labels for the M1 block.

Any guidance from those who have done the PID upgrade?

 

[Ira]

Hello StevieG.,

Saturday, August 27, 2016, 10:37:56 AM, you wrote:

WLL tech support informed me the probes for the old AKO's are no longer available, so installing the PID.

They are available, just not from WLL. You should have asked.

-- Ira

[herman dickens]

I just shot you an email that should help. Let me know if there's anything else you need.

Herman

--

[StevieG.]

I have the new PID, relay and temp probe installed and wired up exactly as the diagram and pictures show.

As soon as I powered it up, the GFI popped again.  

Disconnected the brew boiler element, powered it up, and it does not pop the GFI.  (Steam boiler element wires connected as normal)

Connect the steam boiler wires to the brew boiler, GFI popped.

With the brew element reading 13.1 ohms, and the steam element reading 13.4 ohms, what should I test next?

Thanks for helping me chase this gremlin!

[Benjamin McCafferty]

Crap, that sucks. But, it sounds like you needed the probe replaced anyway.

I would try to look at the wires involved with the short—try to inspect them for cracks and possible shorts to ground.

Did you already check anything on the pressure stat? A couple of ways I could think to test this—one would be to remove all the wires (tag them first) and check continuity across the p-stat. You should have it to one of the outbound terminals only (the ones marked NO and NC). If there’s continuity across all three it would seem there’s a short in the part. Also, you could connect the inbound wire to the outbound wire that would continue on to the boiler (covered with tape or something to keep them from touching a boiler, etc.) and see if the GFI still trips. If not, that would rule in the p-stat as the source of the short.  In other words, mimic the function of the p-stat by directly connecting the wires to each other.

Short of that—no pun intended—it still seems like the element is the likely culprit, but the ohm reading is throwing me for a loop.

Hmmmm…..still thinking here…

bmc

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[herman dickens]

Thanks for jumping in Ben. I also told him to check and make sure that there was not a problem with the limit switches. If one of them went bad I think it could cause the same problem.

h

On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 7:31 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <bmac...@me.com> wrote:

Crap, that sucks. But, it sounds like you needed the probe replaced anyway.

I would try to look at the wires involved with the short—try to inspect them for cracks and possible shorts to ground.

Did you already check anything on the pressure stat? A couple of ways I could think to test this—one would be to remove all the wires (tag them first) and check continuity across the p-stat. You should have it to one of the outbound terminals only (the ones marked NO and NC). If there’s continuity across all three it would seem there’s a short in the part. Also, you could connect the inbound wire to the outbound wire that would continue on to the boiler (covered with tape or something to keep them from touching a boiler, etc.) and see if the GFI still trips. If not, that would rule in the p-stat as the source of the short.  In other words, mimic the function of the p-stat by directly connecting the wires to each other.

Short of that—no pun intended—it still seems like the element is the likely culprit, but the ohm reading is throwing me for a loop.

Hmmmm…..still thinking here…

bmc

On Aug 27, 2016, at 15:11, StevieG. <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have the new PID, relay and temp probe installed and wired up exactly as the diagram and pictures show.

As soon as I powered it up, the GFI popped again.  

Disconnected the brew boiler element, powered it up, and it does not pop the GFI.  (Steam boiler element wires connected as normal)

Connect the steam boiler wires to the brew boiler, GFI popped.

With the brew element reading 13.1 ohms, and the steam element reading 13.4 ohms, what should I test next?

Thanks for helping me chase this gremlin!

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[Ben McCafferty]

Yeah, he had checked those about 27 emails ago, haha. 😀

Sent from my iPhone

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[StevieG.]

And I just checked them again :)  - removed both wires to the limit switches, connected them together, and issue persists.  Did the limit switches one at a time.

Just checked Jaeger P-stat, appears to be normal with continuity between terminal 1 and 2 (NC), no continuity between 1 and 4 (NO) and no continuity between 2 (NC) and 4 (NO)

Thanks!

Steve

[herman dickens]

This may sound crazy but give it a shot. Unplug the brew boiler and see if the pressure builds and then shuts off like normal. Once the steam pressure gets up the pressurestat should switch the power to the brew boiler. Make sure the gfi doesn't kick out with the brew boiler disconnected. If that works fine power down, plug the brew boiler in , then power back up and see what happens.

H

--

[Stephen Gould]

Ok, did that, pressurized to 1.3 as normal, left it sit with the steam boiler light off, powered down and immediately connected the brew boiler wires - GFI popped.

Thanks,

Steve

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[Ben McCafferty]

Boy, it sure seems like the brew element by now. One last test that would eliminate everything else, would be to fashion a power cord directly to the brew boiler element and have that trip the gfi. 

Still scratching my head over the resistance, but...walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

Perhaps a partial crack in the element, that shorts to ground, but also allows continuity and resistance check?

Best,

bmc

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[Ira]

Hello Ben,

Sunday, August 28, 2016, 9:00:23 AM, you wrote:

Still scratching my head over the resistance, but...walks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

A GFI will trip with a 10 meg ohm resistance and many meters see that as an open as in the world of auto mechanics, home owners and electricians, the need to see that high a resistance is essentially never needed and making it happen costs money they don't want to spend. My Fluke can see stuff like that, but it cost close to $400. The reason I had him try measuring the case to ground  with the machine plugged into a 2 prong outlet was to simulate something that would measure high resistance. The fact he saw voltage when we did that would tend to indicate it was always the element.  FWIW, shorting the RTD leads to ground should not be able to cause any sort of problem other than bad readings, it certainly will not cause a GFI to trigger unless the Gicar box is fried in some very unusual and theoretically impossible to occur fashion.

99% or more of the time, GFIs trigger because of a bad element or water dripping on an electrical connection where that water can bridge the wire to ground, most
commonly heating element terminals.

And in case you don't know, heating elements come out easily with an impact wrench. A friendly mechanic will probably do it for a 6 pack if you take the boiler out.

-- Ira

[Stephen Gould]

Fortunately I already have the element and my own impact wrench, but not the correct size socket.  The largest I have is a 32mm, and that's not even close.

Will stop by Harbor Freight with the new element on the way to the airport, then over and out until Friday.

Thanks all!

Steve

--

[Benjamin McCafferty]

Thanks, Ira! Informative stuff. I have always suspected the element but hate to have him buy stuff if there was another possible cause.

What are “RTD” leads, my brain is stalling on that at the moment? I also missed the exchange where you had him go case to ground, I’ll have to look back for that one and read it.

best,

bmc

[Benjamin McCafferty]

Good luck, keep us posted. 

bmc

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[Stephen Gould]

Anyone know the socket size needed for the element?  No dice at HF, will need to find one online once I know the size.

Thanks,

Steve

[Ira]

Hello Benjamin,

Sunday, August 28, 2016, 11:17:01 AM, you wrote:

What are “RTD” leads,

"Resistance Temperature Detectors"

http://www.omega.com/prodinfo/rtd.html

I knew what it meant, but not what it stood for so I had to look it up.

-- Ira

[StevieG.]

Found the socket size in the WLL Wiki page - 1 7/16?  Everything else is metric, so that seems a little strange.  Converting that to metric would be 36.51 mm, wondering if the actual size is 36 or 37mm?

Steve

[Ben McCafferty]

At large sizes, metric vs standard is a lot less important. I'll look at mine when home--I used a standard socket that was a very tight (great) fit. 

b

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 28, 2016, at 14:24, StevieG. <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:

Found the socket size in the WLL Wiki page - 1 7/16?  Everything else is metric, so that seems a little strange.  Converting that to metric would be 36.51 mm, wondering if the actual size is 36 or 37mm?

Steve

[Ben McCafferty]

Looked up

An old thread--1 7/16" or 37mm. 

The standard is tight, but it will work with some coaxing. :)

b

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 28, 2016, at 14:24, StevieG. <steve...@gmail.com> wrote:

Found the socket size in the WLL Wiki page - 1 7/16?  Everything else is metric, so that seems a little strange.  Converting that to metric would be 36.51 mm, wondering if the actual size is 36 or 37mm?

Steve

[Bruce Keeler]

10MΩ? That sounds really high. Multiple google sources tell me GFIs trip at ~5mA which would be about 22KΩ. 10MΩ would draw something like 11µA. I'd guess the solenoid valve (which sinks to ground by (bad) design) probably draws more than that.

Bruce

-- Ira --

[StevieG.]

Socket arrived, I get home, and removed the old element.  Very interested to see there was no scale at all, especially descaling was always on the "need to do that soon" list.

The impact wrench really made short work of removing the element and temp probe without removing the boiler.

 

Connected everything except the brew boiler power, let the steam boiler come up to temp/pressure, made sure I have flow from the hot water wand, the group head, and the steam wand.

Waiting for it to cool down to connect the brew boiler wires, and crossing my fingers.....

Steve

[Ben McCafferty]

The suspense is killing me! Hook it up! Hook it up! Hook it up!

bmc

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<Old Parts.jpg>

<Right tools.jpg>

[StevieG.]

Back in bizness!  Replaced the stale beans in the grinder, and pulled a double topped off with some steamed milk.

Now I just have to button it up, and we can call this case closed.

I truly appreciate all of the input and assistance - this board has always been one of the best when somebody is down or having problems.  If anybody in the Atlanta area ever needs to borrow the impact wrench......

Thanks All!

Steve

[herman...@gmail.com]

Glad you got it going!

Sent from my android device.

--

[Ira]

I was so dismayed with my grinder that I stopped using the Brewtus for quite a long time. Today I finally cleaned it up and turned it on again. UPS usually delivers at 12:230 but it must have been busy because they didn't show up till 4:00 which is even really late for our daily pickup. So I pulled my first shot in years today. The new grinder is a dream, almost perfectly quiet, much quieter than the vibe pump. It's a single dosing grinder, 18 grams of beans in 18 grams of beans out. You can see the pre-measured test tubes of beans to the right of the grinder. pulled 3 almost picture perfect shots, my home roast is not the right answer for espresso, but the bag from Caffe Lusso that came with the grinder was much better. I'm not an espresso drinker, but I drank the first shot that way. Not the best I've ever had, that was from a baby Slayer at the Atlanta SCAA, but one of the 2 or 3 best shots I've had. The cappuccino I made next started off good and by the time it cooled was one of the best.
The cozy is to help it warm up faster and save electricity when it's sitting idle for long periods.

I've missed it and it's nice that it's alive again. It's my 4th and likely last grinder.

https://www.kafatek.com/index.php/monolith-titan-flat-burr-espresso-grinder/

It's to much money, but I hate messing with inferior tools and this one just works. It's the first grinder where the only cons I've ever seen mentioned are it could be faster and the adjustment could be finer. I've not changed the adjustment as it arrived adjusted about perfect. Dennis won't ship it till he pulls shots that's he
s happy with, in my case on a one group Synesso Hydra.  He has fun toys.

Ira

[herman dickens]

Wow! I wish you hadn't posted this. Now I'm drooling over it. Looks like they don't have any more in stock according to the web page. Keep us posted on how you like it. I'm still using a mazzer mini that I converted from doser to doseless. I've had it 10 years and replaced the burrs once but I've been itching to replace it.

Herman

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[StevieG.]

Yeah, thanks a lot Ira!  Now I have to remodel my kitchen as well!

Looks like a really great grinder - very compact and very nice visual appeal.  Anybody know what the ring was that the video showed when filling the basket?  I have been using a canning funnel that fits into my basket very well, but it is a bit unwieldy.

 

Thx,

Steve 

[Ira]

Hello herman,

Friday, October 14, 2016, 12:16:58 PM, you wrote:

Wow! I wish you hadn't posted this. Now I'm drooling over it. Looks like they don't have any more in stock according to the web page. Keep us posted on how you like it. I'm still using a mazzer mini that I converted from doser to doseless. I've had it 10 years and replaced the burrs once but I've been itching to replace it.

He makes them in batches of 32. There should be some left to pre-order, 3 flats and 6 conicals. You need to pre-order them and then wait a while for it to get built. It's annoying, but the only way to get one. The get built and tested one or two a day once the parts arrive.

-- Ira

[herman dickens]

They look amazing!  I'm just not satisfied with the mini and was trying to decide which route to go when I saw this. Now I have to convince myself to part with the cash :)

--

[Ira]

Hello StevieG.,

Friday, October 14, 2016, 12:52:48 PM, you wrote:

Looks like a really great grinder - very compact and very nice visual appeal.  Anybody know what the ring was that the video showed when filling the basket?  I have been using a canning funnel that fits into my basket very well, but it is a bit unwieldy.

It's a dosing funnel. Here are some examples:

http://oehandgrinders.com/OE-Dosing-Funnels_c_25.html

-- Ira

[Stephen Gould]

Thanks Ira – these look a lot easier to work with than the big canning funnel I was using!

Steve

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[Ira]

Hello Ira,

Friday, October 14, 2016, 5:51:44 PM, you wrote:

It's a dosing funnel. Here are some more examples:

https://www.tidaka.net/de/Board-Trichter/Board-Trichter-58-fuer-2er-Siebe-58-mm.html

In German, but people say good things about Tidaka.

-- Ira

[Ira]

Hello herman,

Friday, October 14, 2016, 3:33:37 PM, you wrote:

They look amazing!  I'm just not satisfied with the mini and was trying to decide which route to go when I saw this. Now I have to convince myself to part with the cash :)

And I guess if we're going down that rabbit hole, I should point out this:

http://lynweber.com/product/eg-1/

Similar but different and only $3,300.

-- Ira

[Ira]

Hello Ira,

Sunday, October 16, 2016, 10:14:02 AM, you wrote:

And I guess if we're going down that rabbit hole, I should point out this: http://lynweber.com/product/eg-1/ Similar but different and only $3,300.

And then there is Frank of Titus Grinding who builds one-off custom grinders loosely based on the Versalab that start at $5000 or so and stop at $10,000 or $15,000, depending on materials, accessories and finishes.

https://www.instagram.com/titusgrinding/

-- Ira

[Benjamin McCafferty]

Good lord people! Now THAT is taking it to a silly level! And I like it.  :)

b

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[herman dickens]

I got lucky. My internet went down and will be down until Monday at the earliest. By the time I got back to look at the grinder there weren't any left for the preorder :)

--

[herman dickens]

The internet blocked me from falling down that rabbit hole. At least this weekend...

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 1:34 PM, Benjamin McCafferty <bmac...@me.com> wrote:

Good lord people! Now THAT is taking it to a silly level! And I like it.  :)

b

Sent from my apple IIe

On Oct 16, 2016, at 10:14, Ira <laz...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello herman,

Friday, October 14, 2016, 3:33:37 PM, you wrote:

They look amazing!  I'm just not satisfied with the mini and was trying to decide which route to go when I saw this. Now I have to convince myself to part with the cash :)

And I guess if we're going down that rabbit hole, I should point out this:

http://lynweber.com/product/eg-1/

Similar but different and only $3,300.

-- Ira

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[Ira]

Hello Herman,

Sunday, October 16, 2016, 11:35:34 AM, you wrote:

The internet blocked me from falling down that rabbit hole. At least this weekend...

Clearly the single dosing grinder market is heating up. It's quite likely there will be others coming along in the next year, likely at higher and lower price points. There is the Baratza Sette coming out soon that is getting really good press for use as an espresso grinder, possibly better than the high end grinders for those just looking for a really good espresso or cappuccino from a traditional roast and not chasing the 3rd wave attraction with lightly roasted single origins. When I saw one taken apart at SCAA in Atlanta, I was impressed with the design, apparent stability and repeatability of the grind adjustment and speed of grinding.  It's really clever design and while it's still in preproduction limited release and having it's final details worked out, the people I know who are using it have almost all had very positive things to say about it as an espresso grinder. Including the comment from someone who can usually be trusted that he thought it might be the best entry level grinder ever. Very forgiving as to setting, zero grounds retention, easy to adjust.  But it's noisy, it was the one and only thing I hated about it. It uses a high speed DC gear reduction motor, and I hated the sound, but it's good enough and fast enough that probably won't be a problem for most people.

-- Ira

[herman dickens]

Hi Ira. I'm still trying to get up to speed with the new Quest roaster. They've made some changes and the roasting guides I've found leave a lot to be desired. The drum is drilled on the back end and if I roast at the recommended setting I'll get 2nd crack around 7 minutes. I've been experimenting and hopefully will have some roasts I'm satisfied with soon. The good part is with 150 gm batches I get to do 3 batches from each pound. I got 8 lbs of assorted beans so I could get a wide variety. It's probably best that I don't add a new grinder in the mix until I get the roasting sorted out a bit. That said if my internet had not dropped out I would be on the list. It won't hurt a thing for me to wait and see what comes out next but I was really impressed with that grinder. Thanks for all the info. I only make a couple of espressos a day but I love them and have been very pleased with the BII. 

Herman

--

[herman dickens]

Ira how are you liking your monolith? Why the flat instead of the conical? Thanks.

Herman

On Sun, Oct 16, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Ira <laz...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[Ira]

Hello herman,

Friday, October 21, 2016, 5:55:23 PM, you wrote:

Ira how are you liking your monolith? Why the flat instead of the conical? Thanks.

It's the same burrs as the Mythos Clima Pro and they are better suited as a brew grinder. I've been using it for both as I ran out of beans suitable for espresso for a few days. I have conical burrs and a lathe in case I really want a conical grinder and it seemed like long term flat might be a better choice, less forgiving, but better when it's right. Possibly the wrong choice.

I'm happy with it, I need to get back into the groove or making espresso and find some beans I like. I got a pound from a local roaster that were still warm when Robyn picked them up and it was just this afternoon they were ready for shots. I've been pulling 18 grams, but I think I need to drop back a bit as today I figured out the puck was hitting the shower screen causing unexpected problems. I don't have to learn everything from the beginning, but I sure have a lot to pay attention to.  No retention to speak of, it's always less than my .1 gram scale can see. I'm the only one here that drinks coffee so I only get to make 2 or 3 shots/day.

-- Ira

[herman dickens]

Hi Ira

I've been reading all I could about both the conical and the flat. I was really surprised at how many people bought both! I'm still trying to tame the quest but since I quit chasing the readings on the digital thermostats I've had much better luck. Hopefully by the time the grinders are available I will be roasting coffee good enough to use one. Still not sure which I will get. I like the looks of the flat grinder much better and don't mind tinkering to get the best flavor. I'm not sure with the small batches that I roast in the quest if I will like the flat better though. I'm the only one in my house that likes coffee too so I only do a couple each day. My 11 y/o likes coffee but it wires him up so much I don't let him drink it every day. Good luck with the monolith. Keep us posted!

Herman

--

[xtype]

I know that this is an old thread, however, in case somebody else stumbles on it doing a search I feel like someone should point out that what Steve was removing was actually thermowell and not the temp probe.

No impact driver required.

The temp probes are available online for a few pounds, you will likely pay more for shipping than you will for the probe when buying just 1.

The temp probe slides down inside of the thermowell. The old one may be cooked in there and, if so, will come out in pieces and will require that you clean out the thermowell (by hand with a drill bit for example) before inserting the new probe.

-Jeff

On Sat, Aug 27, 2016 at 10:44 AM, Ira <laz...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello StevieG.,

Saturday, August 27, 2016, 10:37:56 AM, you wrote:

WLL tech support informed me the probes for the old AKO's are no longer available, so installing the PID.

They are available, just not from WLL. You should have asked.

-- Ira

[StevieG.]

Correct, that part did not need an impact wrench.  Removing the heating element did.