Lumosity vs Posit Science
whoisbambam
college, which may be more beneficial in your opinion, Lumosity or
Posit Science (the latter has two programs, auditory and visual).
Lumosity offers a 299.95 lifetime membership but you can get a 20% off
coupon that brings it down to 209.97
Posit Science has a 20%off coupon that brings the total package of
690.00 down to 552.00, or if just the auditory program is desired
(brain fitness program), 395.00 becomes 316.00 (i mention the auditory
program specifically because I have heard that lumosity focuses more
on visual, less auditory, but i could be mistaken--so perhaps the best
benefit could be obtained from lumosity and brain fitness program).
Now, I have heard negatives about both. I heard Posit Science studies
only showed a 4% improvement (but the control had a 2% improvement or
something), and perhaps some misleading statement about 130%
improvement in processing speed (which seems contradictory to 4%).
As for Lumosity, I have heard that it does not fare well in
adaptability--that ppl acclamate and the difficulty level maxes out,
and that there is no specific evidence for lumosity games, but instead
they are using existing 'plasticity' research, and assuming it
translates to their software (yet they seem to have worked with some
major universities, so i dunno).
I have already outlined other benefits (25minutes cardio, resistance
training, dual n back, good sleep, good diet, fish oil (country life
omega mood is the latest), creatine, cdp-choline, whey protein,
multivitamin, astaxanthin, caffeine, modafinil), and I am seeking
experiences and opinions of other options.
I pretty much gave up on pharmaceutical nootropics, as nothing seemed
to work to actually improve memory, but i am still open to suggestions
(i am doubtful about nicotine, ddavp (but it wasnt refrigerated),
aricept, hydergine). It would be nice to be able to take some
medication that could work with memory improvement for 'normal'
people, but it seems it does not exist. Modafinil doesnt seem to
improve memory, but may assist with vigilance/drive--you may study
longer/harder (if anybody has experience with a specific brand from a
specific source, let me know--seems to be lots of disparity in
quality).
So i am thinking that training the brain like you train the body may
be an effective, long-term route.
Gwern Branwen
...
> I have already outlined other benefits (25minutes cardio, resistance
> training, dual n back, good sleep, good diet, fish oil (country life
> omega mood is the latest), creatine, cdp-choline, whey protein,
> multivitamin, astaxanthin, caffeine, modafinil), and I am seeking
> experiences and opinions of other options.
If you are busy with all these existing options, is it really a good
idea to consider sinking hundreds of dollars into more brain games? (I
haven't really followed Lumosity or Posit's games, so I will
generously assume that they don't have $0 equivalents and actually do
worthwhile things.)
Consider the important economic concept of marginal utility**; you
pursue the highest-benefit option until it stops being profitable,
then you move on to the next one. You invest in one college degree
over 4 years, you don't go for 10 simultaneously over 40 years. A
charity/philanthropy* example may help; from
http://www.slate.com/id/2034/
> 'People constantly ignore my good advice by contributing to the American Heart Association, the American Cancer Society, CARE, and public radio all in the same year--as if they were thinking, "OK, I think I've pretty much wrapped up the problem of heart disease; now let's see what I can do about cancer."'
Meditation takes a fair deal of time, as does aerobic exercise, and
n-backing, and dealing with one's diet. Are you really helping
yourself by considering fragmenting your time even further? Overhead
and transition costs can be killer.
> Modafinil doesnt seem to
> improve memory, but may assist with vigilance/drive--you may study
> longer/harder (if anybody has experience with a specific brand from a
> specific source, let me know--seems to be lots of disparity in
> quality).
I have a page with some supplier information which may or may not be
of use to you: http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil.html#suppliers-prices
(On a side-note, I got a Zeo sleep-tracking device for Christmas.
Should be interesting to see what effects modafinil or polyphasic
napping have, if I ever try them again, along the lines of
http://blog.myzeo.com/sleeping-round-the-clock-a-polyphasic-experiment/
)
* Some interesting further reading on effective charity:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/3gj/efficient_charity_do_unto_others/
** http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_utility
--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net
whoisbambam
One must keep a balanced perspective indeed.
As for the exercise, fish oil, creatine, mvi, whey protein,
astaxanthin..........this is done independent of my desire to improve
my brain, so i am not going to even count that.
Exercise, esp. high intensity training, seems to be the single best
thing one can do to boost mental performance.
Of all the programs, the single best program probably is brainworkshop
(considering its price, especially).
So.....the perspective you are calling back must be in regard to the
modafinil and lumosity and posit science.
I learn best by opening a book, reading it, underlining text, and esp.
making questions from the read material, wherein i have blanks,
sometimes with the first letter of the text of the blank area........
In class, i can not seem to learn much of anything.
Therefore I suspect my auditory processing can be
improved........Posit Science seems to be well-researched and they
seem to have a good auditory program, and it may be of benefit
independent of brainworkshop in my case........it is my understanding
that you dont have to do this everyday ad infinitum...........probably
three repetitions of the cycle, then perhaps one repetition cycle a
year (so maybe 1month).
As for lumosity...........i had to take this timed test for an
application for a job..........some of it was mathematical problems,
and i needed to answer these quickly. Lumosity seems to have addition,
subtraction, and division programs that may help with this, thus boost
my chances of getting a better job. This psychometric test also had
questions on words.........it would give you a definition, and then
you would have to select one of the 5 choices, which only was the
first letter of the possible word that matched the definition. Strange
stuff. It seems lumosity may help a bit with their word games.
I also have issues when I walk in a room of new people, meet 10people
in this new room for the first time............i end up forgetting
just about all the names. If it is only 3 people, no problem. Maybe I
am an abject moron, i dunno. Lumosity seems to have games that may
help with this.
So i thought i would try to ask some people that seemed to have more
aptitude than myself...........ppl that frequent this forum.
I suppose i may be overdoing it, i dunno. Maybe brainworkshop can just
as easily solve these same issues and the beforementioned two programs
are indeed extraneous.
Gwern, I appreciate your reply: thank you.
You are the second person that has referenced pharmacy
express.........but i dont see that they clearly will deliver Modapro
rather than generic, as both pages load the same selections.
And the site you ordered your modalert from......it seems they charge
in pounds, so six pounds (maybe it was 8) for 10pills of the inferior
modalert seems rather expensive per mg, yet they seem to be at the top
of your chart, strangely.
I also found it quite strange that olmifon/adrafinil had NO effect,
yet modafinil did, on you. That seems most strange.
On Dec 27, 2:19 pm, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> ...
>
> > I have already outlined other benefits (25minutes cardio, resistance
> > training, dual n back, good sleep, good diet, fish oil (country life
> > omega mood is the latest), creatine, cdp-choline, whey protein,
> > multivitamin, astaxanthin, caffeine, modafinil), and I am seeking
> > experiences and opinions of other options.
>
> If you are busy with all these existing options, is it really a good
> idea to consider sinking hundreds of dollars into more brain games? (I
> haven't really followed Lumosity or Posit's games, so I will
> generously assume that they don't have $0 equivalents and actually do
> worthwhile things.)
>
> Consider the important economic concept of marginal utility**; you
> pursue the highest-benefit option until it stops being profitable,
> then you move on to the next one. You invest in one college degree
> over 4 years, you don't go for 10 simultaneously over 40 years. A
> > 'People constantly ignore my good advice by contributing to the American Heart Association, the American Cancer Society, CARE, and public radio all in the same year--as if they were thinking, "OK, I think I've pretty much wrapped up the problem of heart disease; now let's see what I can do about cancer."'
>
> Meditation takes a fair deal of time, as does aerobic exercise, and
> n-backing, and dealing with one's diet. Are you really helping
> yourself by considering fragmenting your time even further? Overhead
> and transition costs can be killer.
>
> > Modafinil doesnt seem to
> > improve memory, but may assist with vigilance/drive--you may study
> > longer/harder (if anybody has experience with a specific brand from a
> > specific source, let me know--seems to be lots of disparity in
> > quality).
>
> I have a page with some supplier information which may or may not be
> of use to you:http://www.gwern.net/Modafinil.html#suppliers-prices
>
> (On a side-note, I got a Zeo sleep-tracking device for Christmas.
> Should be interesting to see what effects modafinil or polyphasic
Gwern Branwen
> You are the second person that has referenced pharmacy
> express.........but i dont see that they clearly will deliver Modapro
> rather than generic, as both pages load the same selections.
Modapro is a generic, the name listed on both pages; there are only 3
generic brands, and they don't ever mention Alertec.
> And the site you ordered your modalert from......it seems they charge
> in pounds, so six pounds (maybe it was 8) for 10pills of the inferior
> modalert seems rather expensive per mg, yet they seem to be at the top
> of your chart, strangely.
IIRC, I calculated that one assuming a bulk order of 10 packages,
which drops one down to the first bulk discount and amortizes the
shipping as well.
> I also found it quite strange that olmifon/adrafinil had NO effect,
> yet modafinil did, on you. That seems most strange.
Indeed. I have a couple of theories as to why that may be the case but
nothing solid.
--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net
Aman Idle
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Aman Idle
Działo, Christopher
whoisbambam
looks similar (header, overall layout, etc), different whois, but seem
to be the same hongkong shopping cart association (ntm the .co.uk site
doesnt ship to usa).........
not so sure i feel comfortable about the hong kong link since China
drove its tanks in.
just a relatively uninformed opinion, of course.
On Dec 29, 3:14 am, Aman Idle <aman.i...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> btw i looked at united pharmacy .co .uk site and they sell generic. But it
> looked too cheap, £4.50 for to pills of 100 mg modalert. What does generic
> mean anyway, is it just weaker form of the real deal? Because that would
> explain why it is so cheap.
>
> > Like the page about modafinil, but it doesen't list steven johnson syndrome
> > as possible side effect, although a very small chance of getting it.
> > Wikipedia lists it as a side effect and it's good to know about that before
> > starting modafinil in my opinion.
>
> > On Mon, Dec 27, 2010 at 8:19 PM, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> --
> >> gwern
> >>http://www.gwern.net
>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "Dual N-Back, Brain Training & Intelligence" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to brain-t...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> .
milestones
65+), especially those who for whatever reasons could not do (or would
not want to do) BW style training. I have some relatives in their 70's
who I think might benefit from Posit Science. Similarly, Lumosity is a
decent lightweight alternative for young and middle age people who
eschew or can't do BW training. For those who are reasonably high
functioning or better, I would go with BW along with other offline
activities that give the brain a workout. It seems you're doing all
the right things outside of BW and you'll have rigor of academic work
to apply your training to. It seems that you do not need brain games
on top of all of this except perhaps for entertainment...and Lumosity
and Posit Science are more entertaining than BW. I think brain games
are good for checking performance from time to time (I've said this
before, once again repeating myself) & you can do this sort of check
at different free sites or very inexpensive ones on the web. I do not
think, however, they are worth investing in. Still, I do think Posit
Science might be a viable option (among others) for certain seniors.
Aman Idle
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to brain-trainin...@googlegroups.com.
Gwern Branwen
> Like the page about modafinil, but it doesen't list steven johnson syndrome
> as possible side effect, although a very small chance of getting it.
> Wikipedia lists it as a side effect and it's good to know about that before
> starting modafinil in my opinion.
I don't list it because
a) the page is intended for the use of adults, not children (who
shouldn't be able to spend that much or spend at all on these sites)
b) the legal risks, risk of contaminants or counterfeit ingredients,
and other risks vastly outweigh the risk of SJS even if one takes it
at face value
c) I don't take it at face value; from
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4345/is_9_34/ai_n29293254/ :
> "One case was considered most likely to be SJS, for a risk of about 1 in 1,000. Although there were no reports of SJS among 36,000 children prescribed the drug off-label between 2002 and 2005, there was concern that some cases could occur with wider use of the drug, and the panel recommended that the company conduct a 3,000 patient study to further clarify the risk."
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 4:14 AM, Aman Idle <aman...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> btw i looked at united pharmacy .co .uk site and they sell generic. But it
> looked too cheap, £4.50 for to pills of 100 mg modalert. What does generic
> mean anyway, is it just weaker form of the real deal? Because that would
> explain why it is so cheap.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generic_drug
--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net
Aman Idle
I'm 28 in february so i am an adult, but something is holding me back trying it out. Paranoia probably lol. I have not been diagnosed adhd but i definitely got adult attention deficiency, i lack major motivation and i have fallen behind on most of my coursework. I just can't get motivated because i hate getting stuck, so i try to avoid that feeling.
Mike
Gwern Branwen
> Hi Gwern,
> I'm really curious about the Zeo.
I hadn't expected to discuss this in detail yet (haven't looked into
how you get the nice charts you see in places like
http://blog.myzeo.com/sleeping-round-the-clock-a-polyphasic-experiment/
), but my notes currently live at http://www.gwern.net/zeo.html
> Basically it's about spotting 'sleep
> stealers', the causes that affect your 'ZQ score', right?
Well, it could be. That isn't my primary interest though, since I have
two major sleep stealers (caffeine and light) and those are easily
dealt with.
I'm more interested in more exotic things - for example, I'd like to
quantify, if only unscientificly and for myself, the benefits I claim
for melatonin in http://www.gwern.net/Melatonin.html
Polyphasic sleep continues to interest me as well. The Zeo offers
solid measurements of sleep quality and changes, and DNB itself will
be very useful for measuring mental performance when I try again.
> Do you consider the data you gathered eye-opening (you're more conscious of
> what to act upon in order to get good sleep at night) eg you
> were surprised how much such or such cause heavily affected your sleep
> quality? or do you consider it unhelpful and obvious anyways?
My principal surprise is how quickly I fall asleep and how much time I
spend in light sleep and how deep sleep is weighted toward the
beginning of the night.
> also if you have time, I have a few more questions:
> - the only data you get is time spent in the different sleep phases/time
> awake (your ZQ is deduced from that data alone)?
The Zeo docs explain somewhere exactly what the ZQ is. I think it's
probably just something like (deep+REM) - awakenings.
> - what are the questions on the form? the regular sleep stealers (alcohol,
> coffee, light/noise, etc.)? is it possible to add to the form other causes
> you want to track (eg modafinil use/naps) and put them on the form/easily
> get data and graphs for them too?
I believe you can enter arbitrary fields. I haven't made much use of
it so far since I'm just alternating melatonin and no-melatonin
nights, which doesn't require careful tracking.
> - could you personally spot specific causes that hinder your sleep?
Well, I have spotted a few instances of cats bothering me in the early
morning around 4-5 AM. :)
> - did it help you improve your sleep quality already?
Not especially.
--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net
Nick
- Integrate Zeo sleep data into a website that tracks your weight, nutrition, and exercise.
- Create a desktop application to view and process Zeo sleep data.
- Build a lucid dreaming system to notify you when you are in REM sleep and alert you using a sound.
- Use Zeo while you are awake to measure meditation.
Mike
- Integrate Zeo sleep data into a website that tracks your weight, nutrition, and exercise.
- Create a desktop application to view and process Zeo sleep data.
- Build a lucid dreaming system to notify you when you are in REM sleep and alert you using a sound.
- Use Zeo while you are awake to measure meditation.
Gwern Branwen
> Ok so I get it, reading your site (interesting site btw!)
Thanks. I try hard. Feedback is always welcome - no one ever uses the comments.
> what's mostly
> interesting is assessing your sleep more precisely. then you intuitively
> fine tune your habits to eventually get better quality sleep, because most
> causes are obvious and you know what to do.
That's the obvious thing to do. Ever read Seth Roberts's
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Roberts#Self-Experimentation) blog
on self-experiments
(http://www.blog.sethroberts.net/category/self-experimentation/)?
Interesting stuff. (Although one should remember strongly all the
usual skeptical warnings and considerations for any of this.)
> awesome I'm probably going to buy one.
Shoot, I knew I should've provided some affiliate links! My one chance
for profit, forever gone!
> http://www.geek.com/articles/gadgets/hey-insomniacs-zeo-opens-up-its-wireless-sleep-device-to-developers-2010063/ I
> stumbled upon this, and I'm wondering what good app could be built over the
> zeo.
> (they say assessing brain waves during meditation is possible, but you said
> it doesn't work well?)
I said the default software for measuring sleep doesn't do anything
for meditation. It's a suggested project, but searching the forums and
Zeo blog and generally googling, I don't see anyone who has actually
done it.
Oh, and as far as custom sleepstealers go, they were added in the past
few months apparently:
http://blog.myzeo.com/forum/room-to-improve/custom-causeeffect-factors/
> I just wached Arianna Huffington: How to succeed? Get more sleep on TED
> talks and it's not that good,
Agreed; complete fluff. Not that one should expect anything other from
Huffington.
> but I'd be curious to get data about how much
> sleep affects dnb/working memory performance, IQ test performance, and
> learning performance. you can clearly see sleep's influence on learning,
> when you're learning a new piano piece: you can feel the memory improvements
> after one or more nights of sleep.
That's at least 2 possible interactions of DNB with sleep. One could
do n-backing just before sleep, and see whether percentages shift
(more deep sleep as the brain grows/changes?) or whether one sleeps
better (fewer awakenings, less light sleep). And one could do
n-backing after waking up, to look for correlation between good/bad
sleeps and performance (one would expect good sleep ~> good scores).
Actually, those are both worth investigating, so I think I'll add them
to the list.
> it would be fun to put a rough number on
> how many IQ points/new skills and memories/working memory you lose per hour
> of REM/light/deep sleep lost. also I would like to see when you get your
> full wm/IQ back (after 1/2/3... good night(s)?).
Could just sleep deprive yourself and see. Also, that sort of question
is right up the military and NASA's alley, so I suspect the academic
literature has all you could want to know about relationships.
> I guess the Zeo could
> generate a nice pool of data for sleep researchers.
One of the more controversial aspects of Zeo Inc. is that one of their
revenue sources is/may-be selling aggregated sleep data, so presumably
they agree: http://blog.myzeo.com/personal-data-privacy-and-zeo/
> What I want is feel I'm at max energy every morning at 8:00. for this I
> think I mostly need to enforce a regular bedtime at 12:00 (to get a regular
> circadian rhythm), so I fall asleep right away and get very good quality
> sleep in a short time (7h). I was almost never able to achieve this (feel
> good in the morning), so I'm really curious to know how it feels to be like
> this everyday. to get this what I need is enforce bedtime, with a powerdown
> hour, melatonin and all the other tricks-- that's the hardest: enforce a
> regular bedtime hour.
Enforcing bedtime with melatonin may turn out to be its most valuable use.
--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net
Vassilis P
dreaming applications and if to your knowledge
there is an app that functions similarly to the NovaDreamer
(http://www.lucidity.com/novadreamer.html) which detects
when you are in REM sleep and gives you cues (light or sounds) to
realize that you are dreaming(it shouldn't be difficult
to create one with the SDK though, even if there isn't one). If you
ever use it for lucid dreaming, I'd love to hear your opinion
and results.
Vassilis
On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 8:05 PM, Gwern Branwen <gwe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Nick <nicolas....@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Ok so I get it, reading your site (interesting site btw!)
>
> Thanks. I try hard. Feedback is always welcome - no one ever uses the comments.
>
>> what's mostly
>> interesting is assessing your sleep more precisely. then you intuitively
>> fine tune your habits to eventually get better quality sleep, because most
>> causes are obvious and you know what to do.
>
> That's the obvious thing to do. Ever read Seth Roberts's
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth_Roberts#Self-Experimentation) blogG
Gwern Branwen
> Gwern, I was wondering if you have used / intend to use zeo for lucid
> dreaming applications
Already on the list.
> and if to your knowledge
> there is an app that functions similarly to the NovaDreamer
> (http://www.lucidity.com/novadreamer.html) which detects
It's been frequently suggested. So far I don't see any discussion of
it: http://blog.myzeo.com/forum/lucid-dreaming-discussion/ So I think
no one has done it. Software is easy; hardware is hard.
--
gwern
http://www.gwern.net
whoisbambam
really in the areas of traditional working memory, which is where i
think brainworkshop works.
I am not *sure* this is a list of all the lumosity games, but i think
it is, and the ones with asteriks are the ones i am thinking would
supplement brainworkshop (Pontus and others, if you think there are
specific games that can be played that may supplement brainworkshop,
please recommend); asteriks are next to math cause i am slow presently
(i used to be fast at math. not a pro or anything, got up to
trigonometry with an A, but was never good at doing math in my head),
and faces because I am absolutely horrible with names/faces,
interestingly (anybody know why this may be? could it indicate damage
to a certain area of the brain? can it be improved? my daughter knows
hundreds of names of actors and actresses, can write them out on
paper, and i can do no such thing):
PROBLEM SOLVING
*Arithmetic Addition Storm
*Logical Reasoning By the Rules
*Quantitative Reasoning Chalkboard Challenge
*Arithmetic Division Storm
*Arithmetic Multiplication Storm
*Arithmetic Subtraction Storm
*Logical Reasoning Word Sort
MEMORY
*Face-Name Recall Face Memory Workout
Working Memory Memory Lane
Working Memory Memory Match
Working Memory Memory Match Overload
Spatial Recall Memory Matrix
Spatial Recall Moneycomb
Working Memory Monster Garden
*Face-Name Recall Name Tag
Working Memory Rhyme Workout
FLEXIBILITY
Task Switching Brain Shift
Task Switching Brain Shift Overdrive
Response Inhibition Color Match
Task Switching Disconnection
Task Switching Disillusion
Planning Route to Sprout
*Verbal Fluency Word Bubbles Rising
SPEED
Spatial Orientation Penguin Pursuit
Spatial Orientation Rotation Matrix
Information Processing Spatial Speed Match
ATTENTION
Visual Field Birdwatching
Visual Field Eagle Eye
Focus Playing Koi
Visual Field Space Junk
Visual Field Top Chimp
On Dec 27 2010, 2:00 pm, whoisbambam <smath...@gmail.com> wrote:
> From the perspective of a middle-aged person who wants to return to
> college, which may be more beneficial in your opinion,Lumosityor
> Posit Science (the latter has two programs, auditory and visual).
>
>
> Posit Science has a 20%off coupon that brings the total package of
> 690.00 down to 552.00, or if just the auditory program is desired
> (brain fitness program), 395.00 becomes 316.00 (i mention the auditory
> Now, I have heard negatives about both. I heard Posit Science studies
> only showed a 4% improvement (but the control had a 2% improvement or
> something), and perhaps some misleading statement about 130%
> improvement in processing speed (which seems contradictory to 4%).
>
Vassilis P
Shift and later Brain Shift Overdrive.
The benefits of task-switching have been discussed previously in this
group (e.g. see
http://groups.google.com/group/brain-training/browse_thread/thread/19f4cd0af7d3c9e1/f6dc747727385eed?lnk=gst&q=%22task+switching%22#f6dc747727385eed).
There also some relevant papers indicating that task switching may transfer:
http://mc.psychonomic-journals.org/content/36/8/1470.full.pdf+html
http://deposit.ddb.de/cgi-bin/dokserv?idn=996156526&dok_var=d1&dok_ext=pdf&filename=996156526.pdf
whoisbambam
Thank you, I added that to my lumosity file. I appreciate your help.
Maybe that flexibility section is more important than i
thought..........at least brain shift is............
I probly only need to do the mathematics thing for a month or so, same
for the face-name recall...........
but perhaps i should consider the brain shift forever since it may
transfer........
On Jan 20, 7:45 pm, Vassilis P <libbocra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would suggest you add some task-switching to the mix, namely Brain
> Shift and later Brain Shift Overdrive.
>
> The benefits of task-switching have been discussed previously in this
> There also some relevant papers indicating that task switching may transfer:
>