New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Phil Smith III]

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/new-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronavirus



Reasonably bad article but kinda funny/ironic/something.


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[Seymour J Metz]

Compare the picture with the text.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Phil Smith III [li...@AKPHS.COM]
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:22 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1xXKX7E4-NdCI6zyhDl9OzEd7mdnEBOumRNE-3YKDQFSKa7p00k6Mf6fl1YxViRi4KDl5hKbKEmKXq_gmzeROsno64gZGNKT_YzTWbtIcnpyz63IWKe96ndfJIU42PineT-1XvY3pTGBW-3rur3j3EN6Q3kxsUOvCbgJ6Pka2yxnm7qejOZqaxbosRwee9RtGrue45sT6c9QYG9d0oatyccfaUVZdoXh6K_6Yi_jsXMTlE1Yj18srorA833K93wXFzBgguwNCdxxJ8T1ojGCjCziWPoXc62WbPJ1FkC_pYAEg5JWiZA46Nwgfkm6k9DpU7ZMhb06I4IKxURQkRWYvl0vX2RArc-QgVjTicP8XbwTY2fs7lGCG7V9dOF-QWx_CxzeMnSVadT43tHvFok_WUedeX2k15Ku5lM43OQ4f5bJy0kZCNWZO4JxmmKQSzCKIf_GRk_an5HH9Mor5YVqbwg/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tomshardware.com%2Fnews%2Fnew-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronavirus

[Wayne Bickerdike]

A friend just taught a COBOL course here in Australia. Some Oz banks and
government agencies are recruiting younger folks for such roles. Lots of
COBOL around. I wrote some COBOL in the past few days. DB2 stored
procedure. Mow trying to get it working for Broadcom Datacom. Any one done
that? Fetch failed?

[Bob Bridges]

Says here "COBOL is a dead language that hasn't been taught in most
universities for decades, and the rare COBOL coders command anywhere from
$55 to $85 an hour".

I'm reminded that five or ten years ago one of my sons heard my standard
rant #37 about mainframes, and thought maybe he should learn to work with
them (thinking it might lead to job security, in which I imagine he was not
entirely wrong). For a few weeks I called around trying to find out what it
would cost me to rent space for two accounts on an IBM mainframe somewhere.
My questions must have been repeated here and there, for eventually an IBM
guy called me and said if I could get the local university to teach a few
courses on mainframes, they'd have to rent space on a mainframe for the
students and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts so I could teach my son. I
did call one of the local universities, one I'd worked at for two years, but
couldn't drum up any interest.

The IBM guy also said that companies were getting so desperate for mainframe
trainees that they were sponsoring college courses their own selves, just so
they'd have someone they could hire later.

COBOL is by no means a "dead language", in any practical sense, but
apparently the writer got it right that it isn't being taught in schools.

Dunno about 55 to 85 $/hr, though, unless things have gotten a lot worse
since I got into the security side.

---
Bob Bridges, robhb...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* D'you call life a bad job? Never! We've had our ups and downs, we've
had our struggles, we've always been poor, but it's been worth it, ay, worth
it a hundred times I say when I look 'round at my children. -from _Of Human
Bondage_ by W Somerset Maugham */

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Phil Smith III
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 10:23

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/new-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronav
irus

[Steve Thompson]

I have asked and been told that various universities do not teach languages, they teach theory. So the students learn an object oriented language such as C++ or Java online(?).

The statements made and questions asked of/by contract programmers (off shore) relative to COBOL — I believe it.

Sent from my iPhone — small keyboarf, fat fungrs, stupd spell manglr. Expct mistaks


> On Apr 5, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Bob Bridges <robhb...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Says here "COBOL is a dead language that hasn't been taught in most

[Gerhard adam]

COBOL is not taught because those that know it can make a much better living using it than teaching college classes to people that believe it is “dead”
Of course the latter opinion is stupid on the face of it.  After all, how does one replace systems that are not understood?  From scratch?  LOL



Get Outlook for iOS

On Sun, Apr 5, 2020 at 1:07 PM -0700, "Steve Thompson" <ste...@COPPER.NET> wrote:










I have asked and been told that various universities do not teach languages, they teach theory. So the students learn an object oriented language such as C++ or Java online(?).

The statements made and questions asked of/by contract programmers (off shore) relative to COBOL — I believe it.

Sent from my iPhone — small keyboarf, fat fungrs, stupd spell manglr. Expct mistaks

[Tony Thigpen]

Today's programmers consider programs "throw-away" just like everything
else. Hey also consider them multi-granular, where any piece can be
plucked out and replaced without affecting anything else. This is
derived from the OO programming model. (But, we know how models and
real-world differ. Just look at how everyone over-optimized relational
databases to the point of collapse. Sometimes 2NF, or even 1NF is better
than 3NF for speed.)

Talk to a younger programmer about a "system" of programs such as an
"A/P batch job" and they just can't grasp it.

It's not just the language not being taught, it's the "works with
others" (as in my program with your program) that is foreign to the kids.

Tony Thigpen

Gerhard adam wrote on 4/5/20 4:12 PM:

[Bob Bridges]

That may be true to some extent. I haven't been to college (not counting working at one) in decades. But back then I was getting a degree in Accounting, and took ONE CLASS in programming - sounded boring, but I figured I should know something about computers. I was immediately hooked. We wrote a program in PL/C (on the blackboard) the very first day, and I never looked back. Three or four or six weeks later I talked to a student who was taking COBOL; they hadn't been allowed to touch a cardpunch yet, and were just learning about the theory of loops. I had much the better teacher, God bless him!

By the way, Steve, I enjoyed your tagline :).

---
Bob Bridges, robhb...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Beware of any Christian leader who does not walk with a limp. -Bob Mumford */

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Steve Thompson
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 16:07

I have asked and been told that various universities do not teach languages, they teach theory. So the students learn an object oriented language such as C++ or Java online(?).

The statements made and questions asked of/by contract programmers (off shore) relative to COBOL — I believe it.

Sent from my iPhone — small keyboarf, fat fungrs, stupd spell manglr. Expct mistaks

> --- On Apr 5, 2020, at 3:09 PM, Bob Bridges <robhb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Says here "COBOL is a dead language that hasn't been taught in most
> universities for decades, and the rare COBOL coders command anywhere from
> $55 to $85 an hour".
>
> I'm reminded that five or ten years ago one of my sons heard my standard
> rant #37 about mainframes, and thought maybe he should learn to work with
> them (thinking it might lead to job security, in which I imagine he was not
> entirely wrong). For a few weeks I called around trying to find out what it
> would cost me to rent space for two accounts on an IBM mainframe somewhere.
> My questions must have been repeated here and there, for eventually an IBM
> guy called me and said if I could get the local university to teach a few
> courses on mainframes, they'd have to rent space on a mainframe for the
> students and IBM would ~give~ me two accounts so I could teach my son. I
> did call one of the local universities, one I'd worked at for two years, but
> couldn't drum up any interest.
>
> The IBM guy also said that companies were getting so desperate for mainframe
> trainees that they were sponsoring college courses their own selves, just so
> they'd have someone they could hire later.
>
> COBOL is by no means a "dead language", in any practical sense, but
> apparently the writer got it right that it isn't being taught in schools.
>
> Dunno about 55 to 85 $/hr, though, unless things have gotten a lot worse
> since I got into the security side.

[scott Ford]

Tony,

Also the Agile framework and not the Waterfall model of SDLC. I have used
both
written Cobol and Assembler in both. My impression is everyone is ‘hurrying
up and rushing code’. If your code is very modularized then I feel AGile
is ok.

Scott

--
Scott Ford
IDMWORKS
z/OS Development

[Bob Bridges]

Ok, I was going to resist the temptation, but what the heck. Some of you may remember this joke from 20 years ago:

Jack was a COBOL programmer in the late 1990s who (after years of being taken for granted and treated as a technological dinosaur by all the UNIX programmers and Client/Server programmers and website developers, etc) was finally getting some respect. You see, he'd become a private consultant specializing in Year-2000 conversions. He was working short-term assignments for prestigious companies, traveling all over the world on different assignments. He was working 70- and 80- and even 90-hour weeks, but it was worth it.

However, several years of this relentless, mind-numbing work had taken its toll on Jack. He had problems sleeping and began having anxiety dreams about the year 2000. It had reached a point where even the thought of the year 2000 made him nearly violent. He must have suffered some sort of breakdown, because all he could think about was how he could avoid the year 2000 and all that came with it.

By the end of 1997 Jack had decided to contact a company that specialized in cryogenics. He made a deal to have himself frozen until 2001 through their totally automated (and very expensive) process. He was thrilled. The next thing he would know, he'd wake up in the year 2001 -- after the New Year celebrations and computer debacles, after the leap year, and after the dust had settled. Nothing else to worry about except getting on with his life.

He was put into his cryogenic receptacle, the technicians set the revive date, he was given injections to slow his heartbeat to a bare minimum, and that was that.

The next thing Jack saw was an enormous and very modern room filled with excited people. They were all shouting "I can't believe it!" and "It's a miracle" and "He's alive!". There were cameras (unlike any he'd ever seen) and equipment that looked like it came out of a science fiction movie.

Someone who was obviously a spokesperson for the group stepped forward. Jack couldn't contain his enthusiasm. "It's over?" he asked. "Is 2001 already here? Are all the millennial parties and promotions and crises all over and done with?"

The spokesman explained that there had been a problem with the programming of the timer on Jack's cryogenic receptacle. It hadn't been year-2000 compliant; it was actually 8000 years later, not the year 2001. But the spokesman told Jack that he shouldn't get excited; someone important wanted to speak to him.

Suddenly a wall-sized projection screen displayed the image of a man that had a striking resemblance to Bill Gates. This man was Prime Minister of Earth. He told Jack not to be upset. That this was a wonderful time to be alive. That there was world peace and no more starvation. That the space program had been reïnstated and there were colonies on the moon and on Mars. That technology had advanced to such a degree that everyone had virtual-reality interfaces that allowed them to contact anyone else on the planet, or to watch any entertainment, or to hear any music recorded anywhere.

"That sounds terrific," said Jack. "But I'm curious: Why is everybody so interested in me?"

"Well," said the Prime Minister. "The year 10 000 is just around the corner, and it says in your files you know COBOL..."

---
Bob Bridges, robhb...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd. -Voltaire */

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Gerhard adam
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 16:13

COBOL is not taught because those that know it can make a much better living using it than teaching college classes to people that believe it is “dead”
Of course the latter opinion is stupid on the face of it. After all, how does one replace systems that are not understood? From scratch? LOL

[Seymour J Metz]

To be fair, "any piece can be plucked out and replaced without affecting anything else." if there is a rigidly defined interface and the replacement complies absolutely. Of course, IRL someone invariably gets "pragmatic" (i.e., sloppy) and the inevitable ensues. "Alpha testing? That's what end users are for."

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tony Thigpen [to...@VSE2PDF.COM]
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 5:31 PM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

>> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1X7kY61h_eEnzKGqA-_zK-cXpeeNt3TaxOONP5UwnTWtZr9WFp14ma572jdSyxXvzzU7F1Tpx6MOBdzRE_jf0NZf_CM7PHLQVIVrZNg1c7mqMZeaJnsQi5qjEhomwN6xXB2Qb_wmKP4Sue9sEm7VgXs2zPHdfB_GitXOj_NuwXZ7xJDnltSZWsa0E5UvQJ5tc5ZG83cOTfsfF81kb-WrcPCwBUVIe-viXWjkFkdekarBAWMHSKWPy7L-Z465kZEDD4EgVmkGhajE-rXma6k9JzitXYdBUIo-yAWLmnk3WvI-68w-L5W3O4SSS8xdR487oN7X2GaAAZ3DzXrD0uRhb94uo-iCUzBMjZjYkpJx1Nr3MjhqgiBnJHDmuMZ3avnfh8P95E9d7j4x1_AckCHrSdom8dJSeXPvwvqSpcEQV5c67TpPdgM7lL-6akEFk1XwPCyp98HsGI_aavKdb91WLOw/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tomshardware.com%2Fnews%2Fnew-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronav

[Seymour J Metz]

> Get Outlook for iOS

We hates it precious, we hates it. It's as user hostile as gmail.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Gerhard adam [gad...@CHARTER.NET]
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 4:12 PM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1M9ftmpkgVBgkVKZCT47bIzso4G_xKkM8MjFBS_eUEMbNp5SK-_ffSToeqXVhwI21WS3OSJIpu9RJp53aOSuzlOlcJXQaFCkmJMFQnzmFQRQQbSCDsHq0NhLLJo79vYQl0oNORlwuWN2U9YtJ5xdCLpuDZ4w5695MxbIdfXW4Sm3uaJ6tkDQ1-wFXTVvvrZY_6EDtBBGQxASFRbVAKdqgCrh4-VILLsooz53R7VSbf27EqR4LsG37N_EbGsb0qdDvCwwmxPVZCr1TWQH6TP_UrMy5oOe6FQNLOuAsfU5UyFOelZyjKM-xg9DZ32b74lCe0XaQMZCH3wAB9RQFpD4jXI5vaw9fKcgX_toMcbuXZ1UjqN4cvfBI4pTtT-Oz0DwtaGeSV_7Un5Yl2I3iqQ1taPwj9kinAzpHAT1cJscAjIPbMaE07XHZEyCnbDSnRmcG5mEKAWSPBoMl15LaGeXHkQ/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tomshardware.com%2Fnews%2Fnew-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronav

[Mary Winfield]

It was a blind cry for help in the workforce!

I remember taking 9 semester hours of COBOL 1974 in Summer 1981. Never worked as an application programmer, but knew about Copybooks and CICS Programs.

Marist College in Poughkeepsie NY keeps IBM Mainframe as a primary technology component. As it should! (Unsure about MIT.....)

I am preaching to the proverbial choir in my post, but most US state governments and federal agency IT are based on framework. Canada loves the mainframe, and never departed from it. Our Canadian private sector and government IT shops were light years ahead of the US with IBM's Open Systems capabilities in the early 2000s.

COBOL will always be with us. Mainframe processing disappear? Nah! Today we have Virtualization and Big Blue is always prototyping new designs.

Tried and true! How I love you, Big Blue!



Mary B. Winfield
646-229-8348 Mobile

[Seymour J Metz]

IMHO they don't teach theory, they teach language du jour. We'd all be better off if they exposed students to a variety of radically different languages instead of just what's popular.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Steve Thompson [ste...@COPPER.NET]
Sent: Sunday, April 5, 2020 4:06 PM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

> https://secure-web.cisco.com/1XBIGE5nZo-z8xX0htDr6UoKYQJpu3Ft_lejshGGbWoYmhFCUILU5g_liTKCTKs4XRgdStpOZuNfYTPKRD3gILqKpVurDQ6KGvLyo5grrC16nTmswwOok8Aq1weHJKYmh-IrSB1-psT6uxy_rJhUtvSUAPUjJylTzWTgNuJGQ_pULu39rFnm_CSxaEHtzHr2e5khasS3M3PB2GVMJ01jeEBwzDKG2qO452JhMPnDp2YiJIjCHHI82EEjsNMMGXxvku_AolOv5Og85TksKce4kiaE12X-5Ws1wavLw8elDVUKEct3rt-xqSugLsZheR-iqVufM701vFdY2LzfoDeHN5OPNyt4wVR8ukW_1eLIJVIrQn8SzYkmzFjU1MuW7jz8Se3ImNPOZPMF2DjGYwiQ-I4ExM4IKsfAtX7RjArX4zBXzRXfmLDK6GIVGSz3pUlCA9tl0CvTZ6iFM1XYm66Zzsw/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tomshardware.com%2Fnews%2Fnew-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronav

[Mike Schwab]

Cobol IMS TELON job is paying 59-100K/year in Springfield IL, kind of
a low wage.

--
Mike A Schwab, Springfield IL USA
Where do Forest Rangers go to get away from it all?

[Gabe Goldberg]

Better article:

https://freedomafterthesharks.com/2016/06/27/exactly-what-is-cobol-and-why-is-cobol-still-a-widely-used-language-in-it/

Phil Smith III <li...@AKPHS.COM> said:

https://www.tomshardware.com/news/new-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronavirus


Reasonably bad article but kinda funny/ironic/something.

--
Gabriel Goldberg, Computers and Publishing, Inc. ga...@gabegold.com
3401 Silver Maple Place, Falls Church, VA 22042 (703) 204-0433
LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/gabegold Twitter: GabeG0

[ITschak Mugzach]

Believe it or not, Leipzig university (Germany) does teach cobol and
mainframe. They even got one.

ITschak

בתאריך יום ב׳, 6 באפר׳ 2020, 0:54, מאת Bob Bridges ‏<robhb...@gmail.com>:

[Seymour J Metz]

1. The check's in the mail
2. It must be true - I heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend
3. COBOL is English like

BTW, CODASYL had input from more than Honeywell.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Gabe Goldberg [ga...@GABEGOLD.COM]
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:26 AM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

Better article:

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1WS3QYJYfnP2DtDF0oWjjWWd29wrIACPo7Jv8qErP37KH2YU-oj_mP4MIa3_GUWnvdOkdUu9I59ceucR3wV3ILN4tnRsmpZ_SI_gNpSD1ZkHXfzI2mO2VTlI9izR9AKWDqx-6gJbfzMYMEXUjwVe11FQPoDaL8rgLihTlnDxq3e8N3uQQx-JjTWTZhY00TVYzVZw8Z1tHNP9XNdskDaPLJ4MUiLmta49XjzkZxD3xtRZ8cztoawV6SkzI1F8gXcy_7LiliRCJBOUAoiCqvl9Jly78RBm2-I0GCpaa9krfLOC1M_OQnNxL_9zsQDBNacx78xNPKVfuwoZs_S0Bl-Xe24b91QGHb4ilZj1u06Beo41IoSuoKrO4zuCgTIcwFWMIIO74wKuK9FBaPVWOSe-vtoZk4VlR2pVG-csyVvRxKHiWfUbIYOmWe2dZBhA9X-vs/https%3A%2F%2Ffreedomafterthesharks.com%2F2016%2F06%2F27%2Fexactly-what-is-cobol-and-why-is-cobol-still-a-widely-used-language-in-it%2F

Phil Smith III <li...@AKPHS.COM> said:

https://secure-web.cisco.com/1ws2nq7FZaLATgHXKdcqlCsweBaKqq3M3yjVxXL9Zj19fSxJEsxjRkXTvQZrxcn1RBwvnW3oOijBt15dWepkXUZ91VhtPJ_kw35_0x50HFLLNggAO2PAkVn9DjUwM5IvyK1wyef0rBHhqpfSwSW4SgBPwpKESADnS5SyWCgcVyrmIAEyZL1ufTkNmHA73wl2HDVq88qRFGS4HHk_6qv8P9bF4ixbQBV6J7P5v5KxIH9sNEQeOFu5BWYH9R4IzrjG9eQO_UtNQH9cvOrEov_XuQKq1E_KRuo8JPOk5fPP3PEZkoYwyVDUSZ5d-NAOOeGyj3rngcvukV40A773jW6FF3DTmRM42hNNN2X0_jWhRWBm-aAm9RaWzRmX8F3yKb0ORCXz1Eki6DzV501QrFWC5K2vxHJX8pkSQsvbvL_LPLKrWsfkoYQKTxIoJhp4MYBug0ACN4A3D-OwkE55ifYaoBg/https%3A%2F%2Fwww.tomshardware.com%2Fnews%2Fnew-jersey-cobol-coders-mainframes-coronavirus

[Seymour J Metz]

Sorry, senior moment. Honeywell was Gracie's competition (FACT is fiction), along with IBM (COMTRAN); she was UNIVAC (FLOW-MATIC et al. For the curious, all three are in wiki as

COMTRAN
FACT (computer language)
FLOW-MATIC

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Seymour J Metz [sme...@GMU.EDU]
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 5:19 AM

[Bob Bridges]

Yeah, I saw that line too. I don't know of ~any~ 3GL algorithmic languages
that are very "English-like", although I suppose it helps to have
recognizable words to program with, especially at first when you're not used
to programming.

(DYLAKOR touted DYL-280II as a 4GL, but IM-not-so-humble-O it simply isn't.
It is a very handy 3GL, but that's all.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhb...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* ....Now some of you are scratching your heads and wondering "How does a
person with an IQ higher than pastry get Super Glue in his ear and not know
it?" But you parents out there are no doubt nodding your heads and saying
"It would not surprise me to learn that this man has a three-year-old son."
-Dave Barry, _Children May Be Hazardous to Your Health_ */

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On

Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 05:19

1. The check's in the mail
2. It must be true - I heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend
3. COBOL is English like

BTW, CODASYL had input from more than Honeywell.

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Gabe Goldberg [ga...@GABEGOLD.COM]
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:26 AM

Better article...

[Seymour J Metz]

Well, it helps if the keywords from your native language mean the same as they do in your native language. To say nothing of keywords like 77 and 88.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Bob Bridges <robhb...@GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:43 PM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Bob Bridges]

It's why I said "especially at first". Once you get used to a language, it
makes little difference to you whether you write "ADDI RG5,LDL" or "ADD
LAMDA-LEVEL TO SUBTOT". But when you're first learning a language, and
especially when you're learning your ~first~ language, yeah, it really
helps.

That PL/C teacher I had in college was pretty good at this. "If you're
writing a program to compare two numbers and tell you which is larger,
what's the first thing you have to do?", he asked us. After we'd worn
ourselves out on wrong guesses ("print the larger number", "no, compare the
two numbers" etc) he said "No, the very first thing you have to do is GET
THE FIRST NUMBER". And he wrote on the blackboard "GET NUMBER1". In PL/1,
"GET" is a perfectly acceptable verb, so we were "writing a program" (well,
he was writing it, but we were learning algorithmic thought at least)
without even noticing at first the issue of syntax.

I'm not saying I can understand APL as intuitively as REXX. (Ok, I'm not
saying I can understand APL intuitively at all.) But it makes a lot less
difference to me now than it did fifty years ago; I know that once I've
become familiar with a language, it'll seem pretty natural.

---
Bob Bridges, robhb...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* By afflictions, God is spoiling us of what otherwise might have spoiled
us. When he makes the world too hot for us to hold, we let it go. -John
Powell */

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 13:04

Well, it helps if the keywords from your native language mean the same as
they do in your native language. To say nothing of keywords like 77 and 88.

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of
Bob Bridges <robhb...@GMAIL.COM>
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 12:43 PM

Yeah, I saw that line too. I don't know of ~any~ 3GL algorithmic languages
that are very "English-like", although I suppose it helps to have
recognizable words to program with, especially at first when you're not used
to programming.

(DYLAKOR touted DYL-280II as a 4GL, but IM-not-so-humble-O it simply isn't.
It is a very handy 3GL, but that's all.)

-----Original Message-----
From: Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 05:19

1. The check's in the mail
2. It must be true - I heard it from a friend of a friend of a friend
3. COBOL is English like

BTW, CODASYL had input from more than Honeywell.

________________________________________

From: Gabe Goldberg [ga...@GABEGOLD.COM]

[Seymour J Metz]

The words may be recognizable but not mean what you think. It's rare for a keyword to be more than casually related to the native language meanings.

As for clear variable names, that's an issue of good style rather than something dictated by the language syntax, except for a few abominations whose names shall not sully my keyboard.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Bob Bridges <robhb...@GMAIL.COM>

Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 1:27 PM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Tony Thigpen]

Many years ago, a programmer where I worked was told to write a program
in Cobol instead of RPG (which he preferred). So he did, but all the
variables were in Spanish. Management was not impressed.

This was in North Alabama early 1980's and there there was not even one
Mexican restaurant in town back then, not even Taco Bell (if you call it
Mexican) so nobody really spoke Spanish. (FYI, he was from Mexico, moved
to the US, served in the Army, married a girl from Alabama and was
most-likely the only real Mexican in 200 miles. He did get his
citizenship while I knew him.)

Tony Thigpen

Seymour J Metz wrote on 4/6/20 1:33 PM:

[Seymour J Metz]

Were the Spanish variable names at least chosen to clearly convey the purposes of the variables to those who spoke Spanish?

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Tony Thigpen [to...@VSE2PDF.COM]
Sent: Monday, April 6, 2020 3:21 PM

[Nightwatch RenBand]

I totally agree with Bob Bridges. It can be boiled down to "all
programming languages do the same things, just in, of ten, slightly
different ways." Learn one, and you have a head start to learning any of
them.
Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process,
Output.

[scott Ford]

Nightwatch I agree, totally

On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 11:07 AM Nightwatch RenBand <johnmat...@gmail.com>
wrote:

--
Scott Ford
IDMWORKS
z/OS Development

[Seymour J Metz]

I don't see much commonality between, e.g., COBOL and Prolog.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Nightwatch RenBand [johnmat...@GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:06 AM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Bob Bridges]

I'm not familiar with Prolog, but if it doesn't (in John's words) do Input,
Process or Output I can see it wouldn't have much in common with COBOL.

---
Bob Bridges, robhb...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* The conviction of the rich that the poor are happier is no more foolish
than the conviction of the poor that the rich are. -Mark Twain */

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Seymour J Metz

Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 15:53

I don't see much commonality between, e.g., COBOL and Prolog.

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Nightwatch RenBand [johnmat...@GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:06 AM

[Seymour J Metz]

It's an AI language and it operates by matching things against rules. It's a totally different approach from LISP, which also doesn't look much like COBOL.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Bob Bridges [robhb...@GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:30 PM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[PINION, RICHARD W.]

WISP???

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:48 PM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

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[John McKown]

On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:07 AM Nightwatch RenBand <johnmat...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I totally agree with Bob Bridges. It can be boiled down to "all
> programming languages do the same things, just in, of ten, slightly
> different ways." Learn one, and you have a head start to learning any of
> them.
>

Unless your mind is permanently destroyed by first learning APL {grin}. Or
any of the LISP derived languages. Or maybe even Smalltalk or "functional"
languages where variable don't (they are basically write-once-read-many).

> Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process,
> Output.
>

True. Which is why many (experienced?) programmers, at least at first, have
some problems with SQL and thinking in "sets".

--
People in sleeping bags are the soft tacos of the bear world.
Maranatha! <><
John McKown

[Bob Bridges]

Ooh, SQL, I forgot about that one. I sure did have problems with SQL when I first tried to wrap my head around it. Maybe I'll have to exclude it from the set of "algorithmic languages", if I'm to preserve my original assertion.

(Thankfully I had a SQL jock who sat nearby, about the same time I had to begin using it for more than just one-line queries. The trick, I finally concluded, is to ~start~ with the FROM clause. Design that first, and maybe GROUP BY next, and everything else seems easy enough after that.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhb...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* We must picture Hell as a state where everyone is perpetually concerned about his own dignity and advancement, where everyone has a grievance, and where eveyone lives the deadly serious passions of envy, self-importance, and resentment. -C S Lewis, preface to _The Screwtape Letters_ */

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of John McKown
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 18:50

True. Which is why many (experienced?) programmers, at least at first, have
some problems with SQL and thinking in "sets".

--- On Tue, Apr 7, 2020 at 10:07 AM Nightwatch RenBand wrote:
> Best thing I learned: Virtually all programs come down to Input, Process,
> Output.

[Seymour J Metz]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_%28programming_language%29

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prolog

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of PINION, RICHARD W. [RPI...@FIRSTHORIZON.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:49 PM

[Barkow, Eileen]

NJ Gov Murphy just mentioned need for Cobol programmers during his press conference currently going on.
Someone must have mentioned it to him - maybe he knows about IBM-MAIN

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 11:57 PM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FLisp_%2528programming_language%2529&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126&amp;sdata=MrSiwgql6bFs4pv87tw2VEmPhWtmOXa1R9BGmKfYOnQ%3D&amp;reserved=0

https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FProlog&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126&amp;sdata=VUaH7%2B1N7yT6%2BpTms131c2Yg%2Bk61yocbmc3z8hdFuu8%3D&amp;reserved=0

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F~smetz3&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126&amp;sdata=5s7ayYuwLKZDooVWeo0E4uBYO95BzA37sdhuTOEZq7U%3D&amp;reserved=0

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of PINION, RICHARD W. [RPI...@FIRSTHORIZON.COM]
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:49 PM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

WISP???

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz
Sent: Tuesday, April 7, 2020 4:48 PM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[External Email. Exercise caution when clicking links or opening attachments.]

It's an AI language and it operates by matching things against rules. It's a totally different approach from LISP, which also doesn't look much like COBOL.


--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

https://gcc02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http:%2F%2Fmason.gmu.edu%2F~smetz3&amp;data=02%7C01%7Cebarkow%40doitt.nyc.gov%7Ca49cf63e69ab4fa4f77208d7db70f7c4%7C73d61799c28440228d4154cc4f1929ef%7C0%7C0%7C637219150550221126&amp;sdata=5s7ayYuwLKZDooVWeo0E4uBYO95BzA37sdhuTOEZq7U%3D&amp;reserved=0

________________________________

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[Phil Smith III]

Tony Thigpen wrote:

>Many years ago, a programmer where I worked was told to write a program

>in Cobol instead of RPG (which he preferred). So he did, but all the

>variables were in Spanish. Management was not impressed.

When my dad was teaching in South America (which he'd do for a few months at a time when I was a kid-he's gone now, and it only now occurs to me to wonder how that worked, since he was a full professor at a university; perhaps leave, perhaps sabbatical??), he came across a PL/I compiler that had been translated into Spanish-that is, the language keywords were Spanish! He was sort of impressed at the effort, but could also see the inherent problems it represented with support etc.



Another friend had a colleague who allegedly wrote a program using variables whose names were all zeroes and ohs and ones and ells [spelling these out for readability]. He eventually trashed it because HE couldn't debug it!

[Seymour J Metz]

It's not unusual for a tenured professor to take a sabbatical and teach elsewhere. Richard Feynman, for instance, was on a sabbatical teaching in Brazil when he learned to play the frigideira.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz

http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Phil Smith III [li...@AKPHS.COM]
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 1:09 PM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Paul Gilmartin]

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 13:09:56 -0400, Phil Smith III wrote:
>
>Another friend had a colleague who allegedly wrote a program using variables whose names were all zeroes and ohs and ones and ells [spelling these out for readability]. He eventually trashed it because HE couldn't debug it!
>

Leads me to think of https://esolangs.org/wiki/%42%72%61%69%6e%66%75%63%6b

-- gil

[John Baker]

I recall a tool from the early 1970s that could take a program and change all of the variables to combinations of "I", "O", "0", and "1".

The "real source code" was kept on punched cards in a vault, and the "encrypted source code" was kept online.

It was believed that a thief would find the "encrypted source code" to be useless.

I don't know if that belief was ever put to the test.

John P. Baker

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of Paul Gilmartin
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 9:47 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Phil Smith III]

Sigh:

https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a32095395/cobol-programming-language-covid-19/



Spot the huge errors.

[Pew, Curtis G]

On Apr 10, 2020, at 3:10 PM, Phil Smith III <li...@AKPHS.COM> wrote:
>
> Spot the huge errors.
>

I didn’t think this article was all that bad. The biggest error was in a quote from a politician, which I understood to be giving an example of some of the stupid stuff people (mostly politicians) are saying. I thought it could be clearer that by the “newest version” from 2014 they meant “the most recent ANSI standard.” Still, compared to some of the other nonsense articles I’ve seen this wasn’t that bad.


--
Pew, Curtis G
curti...@austin.utexas.edu

[Bob Bridges]

Well, there was that one bit about a "40-year-old system comprised of a COBOL mainframe and four other separate systems". But it's attributed to an anonymous "leader from Connecticut"; maybe the writer of the article flinched as badly as I did, but didn't feel obligated to say so.

(Once I learned that "comprise" is does not mean "compose", you see, I have to point it out wherever possible.)

---
Bob Bridges, robhb...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* If a man speaks in the forest and there is no woman to hear him, is he still wrong? -George Carlin */

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf Of Pew, Curtis G
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 17:17

I didn’t think this article was all that bad. The biggest error was in a quote from a politician, which I understood to be giving an example of some of the stupid stuff people (mostly politicians) are saying. I thought it could be clearer that by the “newest version” from 2014 they meant “the most recent ANSI standard.” Still, compared to some of the other nonsense articles I’ve seen this wasn’t that bad.

--- On Apr 10, 2020, at 3:10 PM, Phil Smith III <li...@AKPHS.COM> wrote:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a32095395/cobol-programming-language-covid-19/

> Spot the huge errors.

[Phil Smith III]

Seymour J Metz wrote:

>It's not unusual for a tenured professor to take a sabbatical and teach elsewhere.

Um.no kidding. What's your point?

[Scott Chapman]

On Fri, 10 Apr 2020 16:10:02 -0400, Phil Smith III <li...@AKPHS.COM> wrote:

>Sigh:
>
>https://www.popularmechanics.com/science/a32095395/cobol-programming-language-covid-19/
>

At the end it really goes off the rails when it starts making performance assumptions that Java would be impossibly slow, and maybe Python would be better.

Python is on my list of "one of these days I should probably learn that", but from my limited Python knowledge that seemed really unlikely that Python would be faster than Java. Some simple googling around confirms that it's really hard to find any references to Python being faster than Java for anything but trivial scripts. Although there are apparently some ways to compile Python, Python's loose typing is often cited as a potential performance limitation as well.

And in real life Java is definitely not always slower than COBOL. Just-in-time compilation can result in more performant object code than ahead-of-time compilation, especially when "ahead-of-time" means "a decade ago for a target machine that was not real new even then". And Java runs on the zIIPs, which can be a significant advantage in some environments.

But I would be surprised to find a case where COBOL isn't the most memory efficient.

Scott Chapman

[Bob Bridges]

He was just responding to your parenthesis, I assumed.

---
Bob Bridges, robhb...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* Q: Why is there no such organization as Chocoholics Anonymous? A:
Because no one wants to quit. */

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On

Behalf Of Phil Smith III
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 00:38

Um.no kidding. What's your point?

--- Seymour J Metz wrote:
>It's not unusual for a tenured professor to take a sabbatical and teach
elsewhere.

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On

Behalf Of Phil Smith III
Sent: Thursday, April 9, 2020 13:10

When my dad was teaching in South America (which he'd do for a few months at

a time when I was a kid - he's gone now, and it only now occurs to me to

wonder how that worked, since he was a full professor at a university;

perhaps leave, perhaps sabbatical?)...

[Phil Smith III]

Bob Bridges wrote:

>He was just responding to your parenthesis, I assumed.

Explaining how sabbaticals work to a faculty brat? Why? That wasn't the question I asked at all. Just sayin'.

[scott Ford]

Yeah, I worked in Mexico and Europe , primarily Swiss French. The CICS maps
were in the countries language. Where our initial challenge was Swiss
French keyboards, they were quiet different.

Scott

--
Scott Ford
IDMWORKS
z/OS Development

[scott Ford]

In Mexico of course the CICS maps were in Spanish

[scott Ford]

Scott:

You must also agree its not always efficient coding or usage of memory. In
my experience, it was ease of usage. For example, you mention HLASM and
people 'give you that look'.
It also depends on the person writing the code itself.

Just my $.02 worth

Scott

--



*IDMWORKS *

Scott Ford

z/OS Dev.




“By elevating a friend or Collegue you elevate yourself, by demeaning a
friend or collegue you demean yourself”



www.idmworks.com

scott...@idmworks.com

Blog: www.idmworks.com/blog





*The information contained in this email message and any attachment may be
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[Seymour J Metz]

because you seemed to find unusual something that was bog standard.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


________________________________________

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Phil Smith III <li...@AKPHS.COM>
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 10:55 AM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Seymour J Metz]

My point is you seemed to be surprised by something that a faculty brat should not have found unusual.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Phil Smith III <li...@AKPHS.COM>

Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 12:37 AM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

[Wayne Bickerdike]

Seems pretty usual for tenured professors to farm out teaching to locums
and do "research".

As for what they do on a sabbatical, research...

--
Wayne V. Bickerdike

[Seymour J Metz]

Many professors enjoy teaching, but hold their class load down to a level that lets them do their research. Others dislike teaching and let their graduate assistants and such teach as many classes as possible. IMHO, iit is better to accommodate the preferences of the faculty.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3

________________________________________

From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of Wayne Bickerdike [way...@GMAIL.COM]
Sent: Saturday, April 11, 2020 8:14 PM

[Phil Smith III]

Seymour J Metz wrote:

>because you seemed to find unusual something that was bog standard.

No, I wondered which of a few possibilities it was. RIF.

[Phil Smith III]

A better article than most of them, I think:

https://slate.com/technology/2020/04/new-jersey-unemployment-cobol-coronavirus.html



Had to laugh at IBM saying "We're giving away COBOL training to help with this!" - right, just what we need, newbie COBOL programmers fixing mission-critical systems. Plus I can't imagine that this doesn't require use of tricky stuff like ISPF and JCL. A very weak attempt to jump on the bandwagon, I'm afraid.

[Seymour J Metz]

Sigh! The system may be 40 years old but the computer in the picture is a lot older.

I suspect that the "40 year old" system is like the ax that has been in use for 200 years: the handle has been replaced 20 times and the blade has been replaced 25 times, but it's still the same ax.

--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3


________________________________________
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> on behalf of Phil Smith III <li...@AKPHS.COM>

Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:27 AM

To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

A better article than most of them, I think:

https://secure-web.cisco.com/10R7oziYWff-XnS7oxCfjL9m1BdqyyN92QDvpU5lSy_gisAdqZA2IIhqm-6quMTnaADKayaieWOPM5h-glt70epo05Jh5ItrpaG7lWkjvUoAu4FYJ0eL9UUTr8kudZpA-J39j5Lno9Si3viMfDMXwh1iUpJ7IJal7xYNn4n3xbDa8Ric3vzGvZyzXxiijZtR-KnCtWv0zTuCYV5M-273y-PRWdWA-N_5W43VfhrPJWyM1wU_a5xvTvfPcutHuKvNuV9SBKH1L0cg25E5lLVcl8_sObmG2U5Gge6lGqR737oyEWtMak9MN1T1pJpBjP4gvaGONw9Pouv2aey7YgYlv-Y_Pf9iBnPDZGG5cYmrW1U_ysTPHxZuEwuxxX4YQZdmGM6urI0GHAAy_tPxBYo6dolfwtGrBrD4q4bPZaIc2_J5vPSApRiRYtFVx1fVZDD92g-FvL213OtxdqTun4K2_QwruPa8EjRS7MkMFmfF9nzE/https%3A%2F%2Fslate.com%2Ftechnology%2F2020%2F04%2Fnew-jersey-unemployment-cobol-coronavirus.html

[Mark Regan]

The article mentions Python, but it is 30 years old, and the latest
version, v3, is not even backwards compatible with v2 (if I remember
correctly).

Regards,

*Mark T. Regan, K8MTR*
CTO1 USNR-Retired, 1969-1991
Nationwide Insurance, Retired, 1986-2017

[Pommier, Rex]

Yup, this whole thing is akin to somebody complaining that Windows Server 2019 is ancient as well. I'm sure if you dig a bit, you'll find code inside it based on NT technology from the 1980s so why aren't people complaining about that?

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of Seymour J Metz

Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 10:51 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

Sigh! The system may be 40 years old but the computer in the picture is a lot older.

I suspect that the "40 year old" system is like the ax that has been in use for 200 years: the handle has been replaced 20 times and the blade has been replaced 25 times, but it's still the same ax.

The information contained in this message is confidential, protected from disclosure and may be legally privileged. If the reader of this message is not the intended recipient or an employee or agent responsible for delivering this message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any disclosure, distribution, copying, or any action taken or action omitted in reliance on it, is strictly prohibited and may be unlawful. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by replying to this message and destroy the material in its entirety, whether in electronic or hard copy format. Thank you.

[Bob Bridges]

Maybe, but I look at it a little differently. IBM has been aware for some
time that their customers are hurting for COBOL (and other MVS-related)
skills, and has been working on it. This sounds to me like an attempt to
publicize something they've been doing all along. If a few more people
become aware of it now in the light (so to speak) of COVID-19, that's all to
the good, and if IBM can garner a little more credit for what they've been
doing all along, so much the better.

---
Bob Bridges, robhb...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313

/* As a father, I have a vested interest in seeing my children do well in
school. If they don't, they won't graduate, and will probably wind up
living in my house until they are thirty years old. This will interfere
with my plan to reach retirement age without killing another human being.
-W Bruce Cameron, _Study Habits_ (2001) */

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
Behalf Of Phil Smith III

[scott Ford]

Bob,

Yep, I have done for the State of NJ, State of NY and NYC. They are pretty
similar, bureaucratic BS.
Backward because some of the managment folks were backward or not listening
to the techies.
Seen a lot of this and Image you all have too.

Scott

On Mon, Apr 13, 2020 at 12:22 PM Bob Bridges <robhb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Maybe, but I look at it a little differently. IBM has been aware for some
> time that their customers are hurting for COBOL (and other MVS-related)
> skills, and has been working on it. This sounds to me like an attempt to
> publicize something they've been doing all along. If a few more people
> become aware of it now in the light (so to speak) of COVID-19, that's all
> to
> the good, and if IBM can garner a little more credit for what they've been
> doing all along, so much the better.
>
> ---
> Bob Bridges, robhb...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
>
> /* As a father, I have a vested interest in seeing my children do well in
> school. If they don't, they won't graduate, and will probably wind up
> living in my house until they are thirty years old. This will interfere
> with my plan to reach retirement age without killing another human being.
> -W Bruce Cameron, _Study Habits_ (2001) */
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On
> Behalf Of Phil Smith III
> Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:28
>
> A better article than most of them, I think:
>
>
> https://slate.com/technology/2020/04/new-jersey-unemployment-cobol-coronavir
> us.html

> <https://slate.com/technology/2020/04/new-jersey-unemployment-cobol-coronavirus.html>

>
> Had to laugh at IBM saying "We're giving away COBOL training to help with
> this!" - right, just what we need, newbie COBOL programmers fixing
> mission-critical systems. Plus I can't imagine that this doesn't require
> use
> of tricky stuff like ISPF and JCL. A very weak attempt to jump on the
> bandwagon, I'm afraid.
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions,
> send email to list...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
>

--



*IDMWORKS *

Scott Ford

z/OS Dev.




“By elevating a friend or Collegue you elevate yourself, by demeaning a
friend or collegue you demean yourself”



www.idmworks.com

scott...@idmworks.com

Blog: www.idmworks.com/blog





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[Dan at Poodles]

Nobody asked the real question: "What are they paying?".

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On

Behalf Of Pommier, Rex
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 11:22 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU

Subject: Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes
Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

Yup, this whole thing is akin to somebody complaining that Windows Server
2019 is ancient as well. I'm sure if you dig a bit, you'll find code inside
it based on NT technology from the 1980s so why aren't people complaining
about that?

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of
Seymour J Metz
Sent: Monday, April 13, 2020 10:51 AM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes
Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

Sigh! The system may be 40 years old but the computer in the picture is a
lot older.

I suspect that the "40 year old" system is like the ax that has been in use
for 200 years: the handle has been replaced 20 times and the blade has been
replaced 25 times, but it's still the same ax.



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[Pommier, Rex]

What's the definition of "volunteer"? The articles I've read say they're looking for volunteers, although I can't believe they're looking for somebody to work for free!

[Dan at Poodles]

They'll get exactly what they pay for.

[Clark Morris]

[Default] On 13 Apr 2020 11:32:51 -0700, in bit.listserv.ibm-main

RPom...@SFGMEMBERS.COM (Pommier, Rex) wrote:

>What's the definition of "volunteer"? The articles I've read say they're looking for volunteers, although I can't believe they're looking for somebody to work for free!

I'm considering actually putting a truncated resume online in Linked
In and offering to do things such as review compile options. Given
that I am required to stay home due to Covid-19 and I wouldn't want
any confidential information on my computer, the sort of help is that
which I would provide a fellow SHARE member. For billing concerns
thee only pay project I would consider is in Canada.

Clark Morris

[GreenGA]

Yes, and if you dig further, you'll discover code from Windows DOS...

[GreenGA]

It's not that much, actually. And anyone that hires on now, will not receive the same retirement benefits and salary maximums as those already employed. This all began in 2007 and has been adjusted downwards a few times since then.

The big benny is that one's salary increases each year until the maximum for that pay grade. The ancillary benefits also decent; vacation, sick, PTO, etc..., and the medical, while not the best there is, is generally better than most, especially now-a-days.

If you want to see what New Jersey pays its employees, here's one forya.

https://content-static.app.com/datauniverse/caspio/bundle/NJ_public_employee_salaries.html?

[Laurence Chiu]

Tried to read all the responses to this thread but I have missed this
point. Unless NJ has a decent developer platform like Eclipse(?) or IBM
Developer for z/OS Enterprise Edition then they are not only going to
require Cobol programmers, but people with Z/OS knowledge like JCL, file
system structure etc. Just knowing how to code might not be good enough.
Alternatively a good coach who can assist with that stuff while the person
focuses on coding.

Then of course what is the application written in? Is it CICS/DB2, IMS,
VSAM etc. They are skills in their own right.

[Schuffenhauer, Mark]

I very much agree.

Getting people to write batch COBOL, itself wasn't the problem. CICS conversational stuff, DB2 interfacing were issues. Exploiting new functions, JCL coding, job scheduling, resource/performance management, maintaining file health, not writing nice loops, and much more, was always the problem. That and how to work through the problems when things went bad.

Working through requirements and turning things into code has its own problems, and to me is a separate thing.

-----Original Message-----
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List <IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU> On Behalf Of Laurence Chiu
Sent: Tuesday, April 14, 2020 4:31 PM
To: IBM-...@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: [External] Re: New Jersey Pleas for COBOL Coders for Mainframes Amid Coronavirus Pandemic

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