Leksiko Mpampiniwth kai ..."Boulgaroi"
Nikos Sarantakos
At 11:56 ðì 26/05/98 -0600, Efthimios Tartaras wrote:
>>Se enoxlei pou to egrapse, Qemh? H' se enoxlei pou legetai?
>
>Katarxhn fusika kai me enoxlei pou legetai, alla auto den einai
>to 8ema mas. Auto einai allo 8ema. To 8ema mas einai to leksiko.
E, afou legetai, kai malista legetai eurews, kala' ekane kai to
kategrapse o anqrwpos. Auto leme tosh wra.
Kai sou eipa ki egw, oti me thn idia logikh eprepe na balei bazelos ktl.
>
>Ta leksika upoti8etai oti katagrafoun thn ermhneia leksewn. Alliws
>eprepe na exoun kai "vazeloi" gia tous Pana8hnaikou, "xanoumia" gia
>tous Aektshdes, klp. Dhladh sto "skoulhki" exei kai "=opados tou Arh";
Eipame, qa eprepe. An kai to skoulhkia den einai toso gnwsto sthn
upoloiph ellada -ap'o,ti kserw apo enan sunadelfo kara-areiano, pou
eixe arrwsthsei tote pou phrate to Kupellouxwn sto mpasket, oi
areianoi den sas lene boulgarous, alla' guftous h' tourkous, etsi?
> To 8ema omws einai an
>eprepe na uparxei estw kai enas. Dhladh sto "poutana" prepei na uparxei
>ekshghsh "=(uvristikws) h mana tou antipalou proponhth sta ghpeda";;;;
Oxi. Qa eprepe na exei (kai exei) thn ermhneia oti h leksh exei duo shmasies,
a) thn kuriolektikh (dhl. h ekdidomenh epi xrhmasi) b) thn ubristikh.
Etsi exei kai gia to boulgaros, kai gia to aderfh, kai gia toses alles
brisies.
ns
Efthimios Tartaras
>Eipame, qa eprepe. An kai to skoulhkia den einai toso gnwsto sthn
>upoloiph ellada -
A8hna na les. Nai, oi areianoi mas lene "guftous". To oti to leksiko
einai monomeres fainetai kai apo to oti den uparxei h leksh "xamoutzhs"
pou xrhsimopoieitai eurews sth B.Ellada gia na dhlwsei kapoion apo th
N.Ellada (xamw--> xamoutzhs)
>Oxi. Qa eprepe na exei (kai exei) thn ermhneia oti h leksh exei duo shmasies,
>a) thn kuriolektikh (dhl. h ekdidomenh epi xrhmasi) b) thn ubristikh.
>Etsi exei kai gia to boulgaros, kai gia to aderfh, kai gia toses alles
>brisies.
>
>ns
Yparxei omws diafora. Den les "eisai Boulgaros" ston opoiodhpote. Den einai
to idio me tis alles vrisies pou anafereis.
8emhs
Phidias Bourlas
Nikos Sarantakos wrote:
> >Dhladh sto "poutana" prepei na uparxei
> >ekshghsh "=(uvristikws) h mana tou antipalou proponhth sta ghpeda";;;;
>
> a) thn kuriolektikh (dhl. h ekdidomenh epi xrhmasi) b) thn ubristikh.
> Etsi exei kai gia to boulgaros, kai gia to aderfh, kai gia toses alles
> brisies.
>
Mia eivai n snmasia pavta.
Allo eivai p.x. to Maviatns (a) katagomevos ek Mavns, b) o... polla
barus kai oxi k.lp.) n' to Tourkos (a) o... Tourkos, b) o e3agriwmevos,
pou tou avebnke to aima sto kefali) n' n kota (a) to ptnvo, b) o deilos
av8rwpos).
Ta alla exouv tn dedomevn snmasia tous kai ubris eivai o
xaraktnrismos tou allou etsi. To Boulgaros dnladn snmaivei Boulgaros,
dev snmaivei PAOKtzns n' otidnpote. Givetai ubris otav les kapoiov
Ellnva etsi, epeidn tou amfisbnteis tnv e8vikotnta. H evvoia Boulgaros
pou tou apodideis omws (sukofavtika) eivai n kavovikn evvoia tou
Boulgaros. Dev eivai etsi; Epomevws uparxei diafora. Kai to le3iko
dev avaferei mia 2n evvoia, n opoia proekuye epeidn ligo-polu
xaraktnrizei tous Boulgarous, pragmatika n' oxi, omws me ta Tourkos,
Filipiveza k.a. P.x. avnlens sav tous komitatzndes n' kati tetoio.
(Opote av les kapoiov etsi Boulgaro snmaivei oti tov perigrafeis sav
maxairobgaltn komitatzn). Edw leei opados tou PAOK. Dev eivai to idio.
Eivai kapoioi sugkekrimevoi, oi opoioi apokalouvtai Boulgaroi, opws o
Mntsotakns gkavtemns, kai eipes oti fusika to teleutaio dev uparxei
sto le3iko. Dev eivai dnl. to PAOKtzns b' evvoia tns le3ews Boulgaros,
eivai n evvoia Boulgaros pou apodidetai stous PAOKtzndes.
Kai n le3n poutava exei mia sugkekrimevn evvoia. Xudaia-ubristika,
n porvn, n ierodoulos. Kai gevika n guvaika eleu8eriwv n8wv, 8a mou
peis, opote edw to teleutaio eivai mallov b' evvoia. Nai, edw swsta.
A, kai to allo. Boulgaros, leei, autos pou gevvn8nke stn Boulgaria
n' katagetai apo ekei. Ki auto dev stekei: Oi alloe8veis, p.x. oi
Ellnves tns Avat. Rwmulias, pou gevvn8nkav stn Boulgaria eivai
Boulgaroi;
>
> ns
>
F.M.
Nikos Sarantakos
At 07:28 ìì 27/05/98 +0300, Phidias Bourlas wrote:
>Nikos Sarantakos wrote:
>> >Dhladh sto "poutana" prepei na uparxei
>> >ekshghsh "=(uvristikws) h mana tou antipalou proponhth sta ghpeda";;;;
>>
>> Oxi. Qa eprepe na exei (kai exei) thn ermhneia oti h leksh exei duo
shmasies,
>> a) thn kuriolektikh (dhl. h ekdidomenh epi xrhmasi) b) thn ubristikh.
>> Etsi exei kai gia to boulgaros, kai gia to aderfh, kai gia toses alles
>> brisies.
>>
> Ma dev vomizw oti uparxei se autes tis le3eis deutern snmasia.
>Mia eivai n snmasia pavta.
Tsoukou. Esu to paradexesai allwste parakatw -gia thn poutana.
> Allo eivai p.x. to Maviatns (a) katagomevos ek Mavns, b) o... polla
>barus kai oxi k.lp.) n' to Tourkos (a) o... Tourkos, b) o e3agriwmevos,
>pou tou avebnke to aima sto kefali) n' n kota (a) to ptnvo, b) o deilos
>av8rwpos).
> Ta alla exouv tn dedomevn snmasia tous kai ubris eivai o
>xaraktnrismos tou allou etsi. To Boulgaros dnladn snmaivei Boulgaros,
>dev snmaivei PAOKtzns n' otidnpote. Givetai ubris otav les kapoiov
>Ellnva etsi, epeidn tou amfisbnteis tnv e8vikotnta. H evvoia Boulgaros
>pou tou apodideis omws (sukofavtika) eivai n kavovikn evvoia tou
>Boulgaros. Dev eivai etsi; Epomevws uparxei diafora. Kai to le3iko
>dev avaferei mia 2n evvoia, n opoia proekuye epeidn ligo-polu
>xaraktnrizei tous Boulgarous, pragmatika n' oxi, omws me ta Tourkos,
>Filipiveza k.a. P.x. avnlens sav tous komitatzndes n' kati tetoio.
>(Opote av les kapoiov etsi Boulgaro snmaivei oti tov perigrafeis sav
>maxairobgaltn komitatzn). Edw leei opados tou PAOK. Dev eivai to idio.
>Eivai kapoioi sugkekrimevoi, oi opoioi apokalouvtai Boulgaroi, opws o
>Mntsotakns gkavtemns, kai eipes oti fusika to teleutaio dev uparxei
>sto le3iko. Dev eivai dnl. to PAOKtzns b' evvoia tns le3ews Boulgaros,
>eivai n evvoia Boulgaros pou apodidetai stous PAOKtzndes.
> Kai n le3n poutava exei mia sugkekrimevn evvoia. Xudaia-ubristika,
>n porvn, n ierodoulos. Kai gevika n guvaika eleu8eriwv n8wv, 8a mou
>peis, opote edw to teleutaio eivai mallov b' evvoia. Nai, edw swsta.
Kai alla polla. Farmakeio einai kuriolektikws to katasthma pou poulaei
farmaka kai metaforikws to panakribo magazi. ktl. ktl.
Exeis pantws dikio oti to Boulgaros den exei metaforikh shmasia,
opws exoun h' isws exoun alla (tourkos, ebraios, arbaniths, egglezos,
ktl.) Den exei metaforikh shmasia, alla' xrhsimopoieitai ws ubris,
akribws otan to les enantion enos ellhna ths boreiou ellados.
Sumfwnoume edw. Alla' den pauei na exei leksikografiko endiaferon,
oxi ws metafora (egw den milhsa gia metafora, des pio panw)
alla' ws ubris. Kai pou' sai, h xrhsh ths lekshs boulgaros ws ubrews
den einai xtesinh. Qumasai tous eamoboulgarous? Kai otan o
pateras mou edine eksetaseis sto Polutexneio, o kaqhghths tous
proeidopoihse oti osoi metaxeiristoun thn boulgarikhn [=dhmotikh]
qa aporrifqoun. Eutuxws, autes oi shmasies exoun atonhsei -an ebgaine
tote to leksiko qewrhtika qa eprepe na tis exei.
Twra, gia na kanw oikonomia, apantw kai sto allo sou mhnuma, opou
mou les an eprepe to leksiko na exei kai tis paparies pou exei
ftiaksei o Stoxos h' o Daulos (ellhnopsuxos, moggolos, foinikisths
kai den summazeuetai). Eksartatai apo to leksiko. H gnwmh mou
einai oti autes oi lekseis xrhsimopoiountai polu ligotero (isws apo
100-500 xrhstes sunolika? -an kai dustuxws exw mia epifulaksh
gia to moggolos) kai epomenws den dikaiologeitai h
sumperilhpsh tous se ena leksiko 20000 leksewn (nomizw toses
exei).
Otan omws mpoume gia ta kala sthn Eurwph kai qa trwme oloi
me xrusa koutalia, tote pou qa exoume trellaqei sta lefta kai den
qa kseroume ti na ta kanoume, tote qa doqoun kondulia gia na
katartisqei o Qhsauros olhs ths Ellhnikhs Glwssas, ena ergo
100 tomwn pou qa perilambanei *oles* tis lekseis pou exoun
eipwqei pote' sthn ellhnikh glwssa me oles tous tis shmasies,
kai tote anamfibolws, epeita apo apodeltiwsh, qa mpoun kai oi
foinikistes, kai o,ti allo qeleis. Metaksu twn opoiwn kai oi
lekseis ths idiolektou tou euagous etoutou kafeneiou, opws
listarxos, trufero podi, klats-praf, upogeia rabbinikh biblioqhkh
ktl.
ns
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
>
> Otan omws mpoume gia ta kala sthn Eurwph kai qa trwme oloi
> me xrusa koutalia, tote pou qa exoume trellaqei sta lefta kai den
XAXAXAXAXAXA
Phidias Bourlas
Niko, diafwvw kai sto allo. O Mpampiviwtns leei oti ebale to
"Boulgaros", epeidn uparxei stnv koivn xrnsn tns glwssas.
Poios to 'pe auto; Dev avnkei stnv koivn xrnsn tns glwssas.
Dev exei kammia sxesn me tnv koivn Ellnvikn glwssa.
Xrnsimopoieitai, ka8' osov xrnsimoieitai, oxi stnv koivn glwssa,
alla ws suv8nmatikos oros kapoiou eidikou epikoivwviakou kwdika
kapoiwv orgavwsewv xouligkavs.
Nikos Sarantakos wrote:
>
> Twra, gia na kanw oikonomia, apantw kai sto allo sou mhnuma, opou
> mou les an eprepe to leksiko na exei kai tis paparies pou exei
> ftiaksei o Stoxos h' o Daulos (ellhnopsuxos, moggolos, foinikisths
> kai den summazeuetai). Eksartatai apo to leksiko. H gnwmh mou
> einai oti autes oi lekseis xrhsimopoiountai polu ligotero (isws apo
> 100-500 xrhstes sunolika? -an kai dustuxws exw mia epifulaksh
> gia to moggolos) kai epomenws den dikaiologeitai h
> sumperilhpsh tous se ena leksiko 20000 leksewn (nomizw toses
> exei).
>
Mou faivetai oti ta ev logw evtupa exouv polu megalutern apnxnsn.
>
> Otan omws mpoume gia ta kala sthn Eurwph kai qa trwme oloi
> me xrusa koutalia, tote pou qa exoume trellaqei sta lefta kai den
> qa kseroume ti na ta kanoume, tote qa doqoun kondulia gia na
> katartisqei o Qhsauros olhs ths Ellhnikhs Glwssas, ena ergo
> 100 tomwn pou qa perilambanei *oles* tis lekseis pou exoun
> eipwqei pote' sthn ellhnikh glwssa me oles tous tis shmasies,
> kai tote anamfibolws, epeita apo apodeltiwsh, qa mpoun kai oi
> foinikistes, kai o,ti allo qeleis. Metaksu twn opoiwn kai oi
> lekseis ths idiolektou tou euagous etoutou kafeneiou, opws
> listarxos, trufero podi, klats-praf, upogeia rabbinikh biblioqhkh
> ktl.
>
Evdiaferov. Wstoso ti paei va pei "exouv kapote eipw8ei";
Akoma kai av exouv eipw8ei kata la8os; Dnladn kai eva... sardam,
eivai vea Ellnvikn le3n pou prepei va... katagrafei; Profavws oxi.
Telws pavtwv, vomizw epipleov oti dev mporei evas epistnmovas va mnv
lambavei up' oyiv oles tis parametrous twv ekastote zntnmatwv, kai va
perixarakwvetai sta steva, upoti8emeva, oria tns epistnmns tou.
O Mpampiviwtns, opws kai va to kavoume, tnv patnse, kai dev eivai
pia eukolo va 3emple3ei. Kala 8a kavei va diatnrnsei tnv yuxraimia tou
kai va mnv parasur8ei, giati 8a blayei tov idio tou tov eauto, 8a
gkremisei tov idio tou tov mu8o. Oi teleutaies avtipara8eseis tou stnv
tnleorasn me tous katngorous tou ntav mallov apogonteutikes. Edeixve
va exei xasei tnv yuxraimia tou, eixe mia stasn epi8etikn, eristikn
kai prosblntikn gia to suvomilntn tou. ("Dev 8a mou pei o ka8e
Lazaridns av 8a balw tn le3n".)
>
> ns
>
F.M.
Christos Minias
Den 8elw na asxolh8w poly me to 8ema giati to briskw toso
geleio pou me exei tsatish afantasta (den exw kai wra na
asxolh8w) alla O 8hsayros tis Ellhnikh glwssas yparxh san
"project" apo to Ellhniko Instituto Bwstonhs, me thn
synergasia allwn dyo panepisthmiwn apo thn dytikh
Kalifornia.
To le3iko einai terastio (mexri twra se dyo Original CD's)
nomizw briskonte se 100,000 + le3hs gia thn wra.
O dhmiourgos tou o *anashs Anagnostopoulos, kai mia apo tous
kyrious Xrhmatodotes h Mary Ann MacDonald to 3ekinhsan
arketa Xronia prin (den 8hmame pote alla toulaxiston prin
mia dekaetia) kai proxwroun me dyskolia sto ergo tous giati
sthn ousia h xrhmatodothsh egine apo prwsopika kaifalea
Ellhnwn kai filellhnwn.
Twra monon ta teleytea dyo xronia nomizw phrane kapoia
boh8eia apo thn kybernhsh se morfh xwrou pou tous
parasxe8hke sthn plaka.
Telos pantwn ayta gia thn wra.
YG.
kai gia na arxisw kai kamia fasaria )kairo exw na to kanw)
8a sas proteinw mias kai oi A8hnaioi exoun problhma me tous
ypoloipous Ellhnes (idietera me tous Makedwnes) na ta
xwrisoume ta tsanakia mas bre adelfe, kai na pame o ka8enas
sthn eyxh tou 8eou kai tis panagias.
H boreia Ellada na einai ane3arthto kratos (na doume tote
pou 8a broune fai oi A8hnaioi), kai ta ghpeda na xtizonte
apo dika mas lefta, kai oi dromoi na ftiaxnonte me dika mas
lefta, kai opws lene kai sthn Ellada "me ton para mou gamw
kai thn kyra mou".
Tote mporei na peisoume kai tous malakes tous Skopianous na
ma8oun Ellhnika, kai na enw8oun me tous Boulgaro-Makedwnes
kai na 3anaftia3oume thn Makedwnikh Dynastia, (na
3anagamhsoume merika A8hnaihka kolarakia ama laxei).
Syggnwmh apo olous tous A8hnaious pou exoun myalo kai sofia,
kai oute pisteyw ta parapanw sta sobara, alla aplws 8elw na
dei3w ena senario politikou xaous pou h A8hna me thn
symperifora ths epibalh.
Ti nomizete perimenoun oi Skopianoi?
____________________
Christos Minias
ITS Associates, Inc.
C...@itsww.com
____________________
Nikos Sarantakos
At 03:55 ìì 28/05/98 +0300, Dionyshs Papadopoulos wrote:
>>
>> O Mp. DEN leei na aplopoihqoun xa.inte-xa.inte oi difqoggoi. DEN leei
>> na grafoume p.x. eFtuxia, eBelpis, pneBma.
>>
>> Twra, gia to pws bghke to aBgo apo to won, oriste ti lene oi glwssologoi:
>>
>> Apo sunekfora ta wa -> taoua ->taouga ->tabga -> ta abga -> to abgo.
>> Auto DEN to brhke o Mpamp. prwtos, to proteine o Xatzhdakis. Rwta
>> kai tous filous sou pou einai foithtes filosofikhs (an kai, ap'oti
>> psulliazomai,
>> stournaria qa einai) na sou poun oti o G. Xatzhdakis (oxi o Manos:-)
>> einai o qemeliwths ths ellhnikhs glwssologias,
>> stis arxes tou aiwna mas. Kai oti egrafe
>> eis aptaiston kaqareuousan. An qeleis kai parapomph,
>> einai G. Xatzhdaki "Mesaiwnika kai Nea Ellhnika", Tom. 2, s. 322
>>
>> Panapei, prokeitai gia mia apopsh pou exei kaqierwqei sthn
>> ellhnikh glwssologia edw kai 70 peripou xronia. An oi filoi sou
>> den to exoun akoma plhroforhqei, egw den ftaiw.
>
>AN eisai APOLYTA sigouros giayto(to exeis diabasei se syggramata tou)
>tote ,dedomenou oti eisai pio eidikos apo emena pou den exw
>asxolhthei eidika me ayto to thema ,den exw problhma na to paradextw
>Wstoso otan ksanaelthw se epafh me tous filologous(pleon) gnwstous mou
>tha epibebaiwsw an ekanan lathos se ayta pou mou eixan pei paliotera
>gia thn ekshghsh tou mpampiniwth(aplopoihsh) kathws kai thn proeleysh
>tou "aygo" kai abgo (h afti klp)kai tha epanelthw sto thema.(stis
>paradoseis etsi to eixan katalabei opws to periegrapsa sto arxiko
>gramma).Pantws se kathe periptwsh efoson den periexetai sta ekpaideytika
>biblia o sygkekrimenos typos h parapanw proeleysh pou paretheses den
>prepei na einai h swsth.
Ma eseis, agaphte, skate ga.idaro! Sas dinw parapompes, mou lete oti
"den exete problhma na to paradexteite" kai sto telos epimenete oti
"se kaqe periptwsh" h parapanw proeleush "den prepei na einai h swsth".
Kai auto, xwris na exete dei ta shmerina sxolika biblia -giati
fantazomai/elpizw
oti ekei sto Polutexneio pou eiste ta kitapia sas milane gia enallaktes
qermothtas kai skurodema, oxi "Lola, pare ena abgo. Na ena mhlo"
An qelete kai alles parapompes gia thn orqografia abgo, anoikste to
etumologiko leksiko tou Andriwth (den kanei kako). Kai prin amfisbhthsete
ton patriwtismo tou Andriwth, deite to biblio pou exei grapsei (apo to
1960) gia thn pseudwnumh glwssa twn Skopiwn.
Epeidh eseis eiste allou eidous taraxh kai, opws kai oi aksiotimoi
sunadelfoi sas Barwnos kai Karras (eimai bebaios oti tous gnwrizete)
apofaineste gia qemata peri twn opoiwn elaxista skampazete,
kleinw edw ta glwssologika. Mporeite na upoqesete oti fugomaxw
kai oti me exete katatropwsei.
ns
YG
Sthn pragmatikothta, paw na ftiaksw balitses giati aurio prwi petaw.
YG2
Sas enoxlhse ki esas to "kaluteroteros" kai to qewreite deigma parakmhs
ths glwssas? An einai etsi, h parakmh exei arxisei apo polu palia,
opote den ftaime emeis -h leksh "kallistoteros" uparxei ston (buzantino)
sxoliasth twn Batraxwn tou Aristofanh, oso gia to "kallistotatos" kai
"megistotatos" apantoun kamposes fores sthn Istoria tou Megalou
Aleksandrou (prokeitai gia palio keimeno -oxi polu arxaio, alla' pantws
ths usterhs arxaiothtas).
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
Apo lathos to sygkekrimeno mhnyma to esteila mono sto niko sarantako
kai oxi sth lista.
Sto metaksy mou antapanthse o nikos kai egw apanthsa pali(h apanthsh
mou ayth brhke to dromo pros th lista.... alla dhmiourgeitai etsi
logiko keno logw elleipshs ths prohgoumenhs epistolhs)
Giayto epanorthwnw.
An loipon kapoios endiaferetai na bgallei akrh,na diabasei prwta
ayto to mhnyma kai meta ayto pou stalthike sth lista nwritera shmera
Nikos Sarantakos wrote:
>
> File, epeidh mallon den katalabaineis, opws ki esu les,
> apo leksika kai leksikografia, den qa anaferqw se auta.
>
Kytta file.Synexizeis ston idio tono me to prwto mynhma.Profanws
den exeis synhthisei na milas politismena .Egw de tha se akolouthisw
stis eirwneies .Oi ypoloipoi sth lista eidan an anaferw pouthena
oti "den katalabainw apo leksika kai leksikografia".Aytoi katalaban
poly kala ayta pou egrapsa.
> Sta orqografika, twra:
>
>
> >
> >Efoson,opws les, ta megalytera leksika ta grafoun etsi kai to exei
> >proteinei "epishma" kai h akadhmia athinwn giati den mpainoyn
> >sta ekpaideytika syggrammata se oles tis bathmides?
>
> Epeidh me exoun parei ta xronia, den kserw pw's grafoun ta twrina
> ekpaideutika suggrammata to abgo kai to afti. Orismenes pantws
> aplopoihseis, opws xlOmos, brOmikos, klOtsia, pou epishs ekshgountai
> etumologika [an kai me to brOmikos diafwnw rizikotata] tis exw dei
> na xrhsimopoiountai pantou. Isws einai kai h dunamh ths sunhqeias,
> pou diathrei tous palaioterous tupous. Pantws, sto ksanalew,
> ekshgountai etumologika.
>
> > Epishs efoson exeis asxolhthei me to thema mporeis
> >na mas plhroforhseis giati tha prepei na apomakrynthoyme akomh
> >perissotero apo thn arxaia ellhnikh glwssa?Ti tha kerdisei h
> >glwssa mas an grafoyme afti(áöôß) kai abgo (áâãü);
>
> Eisai sobaros? Egrafan oi arxaioi aFti kai aBgo? Oxi. Egrafan
> ous kai won. Ara, ti apomakrunsh apo thn arxaia mas les?
>
> Otan oi filologoi ta grafoune me fi kai bhta antistoixa, einai pio
> proskollhmenoi ston arxaio tupo kai thn etumologikh tou
> ekseliksh para' opoios ta grafei me Y.
>
> Parempiptontws, o Mpamp. den grafei "pi kai fi" alla "pei kai fei"
> akribws epeidh einai proskollhmenos sthn arxaia. Ti
> apomakrunsh mas les?
>
> >H ekshghsh pou akousa apo tous foithtes tou mpampiniwth einai
> >"h aplopoihsh" ths glwssas (na grafontai opws akoygontai) kai
> >apo th stigmh pou proferontai kata ton idio tropo abgo kai
> >aygo den yparxei logos na exoyme to deytero.To idio kai gia
> >ta pollapla "i" (giwta,omikron giwta klp) .
>
> Se diabebaiwnw oti h' den akouses kala' h' den sou ta eipan kala'.
> Fwnhtikh orqografia den exei zhthsei kaneis kaqhghths filologos.
>
Den eipa oti elegan ayti kai aygo oi arxaioi .Eipa oti ta sygkekrimena
proekypsan apo tous grammatikous kanones ths ellhnikhs glwssas
Oi kanones aytoi einai o akrogwniaios lithos ths ellhnikhs glwssas apo
thn arxaiothta ws shmera.Katargontas ta kanontas "aplopoihseis"
twn difthoggwn h pollaplwn fwnhentwn klp apomakrynomaste apo thn
arxaia ellhnikh kai kanoyme mia nea "ellhnikh" glwssa ektrwma.
Efoson den einai h aplopoihsh to kinhtro tou mpampiniwth gia tis
allages aytes,mporeis na mas anafereis pws prokyptei to abgo anti
gia aygo?An mou apodeikseis oti mou ta eipan lathos oi foithtes tou
den exw problhma na to apodextw an kai einai periergo na to exoun
katalabei me ton idio lathos tropo 4 atoma
> Plhn omws egw me
> >tis periorismenes filologikes gnwseis mou gnwrizw oti yparxei
> >logos pou xrhsimopoioyntai ta pollapla fwnhenta h oi difthoggoi.
> >O logos aytos einai h proeleysh twn diaforwn leksewn apo alles
> >lekseis apo tis opoies paragontai me sygkekrimenous grammatikous
> >kanones.Etsi gnwrizontas tous aploys grammatikous kanones kai tis
> >lekseis apo tis opoies paragetai mia allh leksh mporoume na thn
> >mantepsoume xwris na thn kseroume!
>
> Edw exeis dikio, mono pou den prokeitai kuriws gia grammatikous
> kanones, alla gia etumologikous.
>
>
> Einai isws h monadikh glwssa
> >h ellhnikh h opoia exei toso sygkekrimeno kai sxedon mathimatiko
> >"skeleto".
>
> Sfalma. Einai h monadikh glwssa apo autes pou ksereis esu.
> Des rwsika, germanika.
Ennousa me ton sygkekrimeno gllwssiko ployto.Se oles tis glwsses
ligo ews poly yparxoun sygkekrimenoi kanones "diamorfwshs" ths glwssas
Omws sthn ellhnikh oi kanones aytoi einai shmantika poio "systhmatikoi"
kai eyreis.Me to eyreis ennow oti yparxoun kanones pou kalyptoun
perissoteres
periptwseis leksewn kai den periorizontai se merika mono grammatika
fainomena
Germanika den gnwrizw omws ta rwsika den sthrixthikan sto kyrriliko
alfabhto pou aneptyksan oi kyrillos kai Methodios kata ton 8o (an
thymamai kala) aiwna m.X. ?To sygkekrimeno alfabhto eixe proelthei apo
to ellhniko.Einai dynato na exei toso megalh "anaptyksh" mia glwssa
ths opoias h grafh (to arxiko alfabhto) htan daneismenh apo allh glwssa
kai apla prosarmosthke sthn proforikh glwssa ?Kai malista otan ayto
exei ginei toso prosfata(sxetika me thn ellhnikh)
> Me tis legomenes aplopoihseis (polles apo tis opoies
> >exoun hdh syntelestei sth nea ellhnikh) katstrefetai o "istos" ths
> >glwssas.Payoun dhladh oi lekseis na exoun ayth thn mathimatikh
> >sxesh h mia me thn allh kai h glwssa mas fthinei.
>
> Ena paradeigmataki parakalw, aplopoihshs pou katestrepse ton isto?
> Gia na katalabw peri tinos prokeitai, dhladh.
Ma sou anefera hdh polles fores,mhn ta grafw pali ta idia.Des kai
ayta egrapsa prohgoymenws
> O ploutos ths
> >ellhnikhs glwssas einai pou thn exei diathrhsei gia xiliades
> >xronia (monadiko fainomeno pagkosmia)
>
> Sxedon monadiko. Bl. kinezika, isws kai ebre.ika
Exoun toso megalh syggeneia ta arxaia kinezika kai ta arxaia ebraika
me tis shmera omiloumenes glwsses tous, oso ta arxaia me ta twrina
ellhnika?
>
> kai exei odhghsei sto na
> >exoun xrhsimopoihthei ellhnikoi oroi kata 50-80% stis episthmes
> >(to pososto diaferei analoga me thn episthmh).
>
> Ellhnogeneis, oxi ellhnikoi. Den einai ellhnikos oros p.x. to telegraphy.
> Einai ellhnogenhs. Ta exoume ksanasuzhthsei auta (oxi emeis oi duo).
> Oso gia to 50-80% mou fainetai oti ta parales. Eidika se neoterous
> kladous, p.x. upologistes, qa ebaza < 20% gia na mhn pw <10%.
Exei bgei biblio apo enan ellhna ereynhth (mou diafeygei to onoma tou
ayth th stigmh) to opoio periexei 150000 ellhnikes lekseis (ama thes
pestes ellhnogeneis ,den einai ekei to problhma) sthn agglikh glwssa.
To sygkekrimeno biblio timhthike apo thn akadhmia athinwn prin 3
peripou mhnes.Stous ypologistes einai mikrotero to pososto ayto alla
oxi genika stous newterous kladous ths episthmhs.Oi newteroi kladoi
xrhsimopoioyn orous apo palious kladous p.x. mathimatika,fysikh,
biologia klp opote synexizoun na exoun ellhnikous orous.Allwste
ayth h plhthwra ellhnnikwn leksewn stis ksenes den ofeiletai sto oti
oi ksenoi "mas agapane" ( :) ) alla 1)ston ployto ths ellhnikhs
glwssas kai thn eswterikh ths domh pou kathista eukolh thn paragwgh
newn orwn pou perigrafoun epakribws ayto pou theloume 2)sthn
enasxolhsh arxaiwn episthmonwn me tis episthmes me apotelesma na exoun
onomatisei polla fainomena klp
>
> Oi ksenoi malista
> >thn exoun sebastei th glwssa mas poly perissotero apo emas.p.x.
> >se oles tis ellhnikes lekseis opou exoun metaferthei sthn agglikh
> >kai arxizoyn apo fwnhen pou epairne daseia exei prostethei anti ths
> >daseias to gramma "H".Aytos einai o logos poy grafoyme HELLAS kai
> >oxi ELLAS epishs heterogeneous gia ton eterogenh klp klp.To sygkekrimeno
> >efarmozetai se xiliades ellhnikes lekseis pou exoun "agglopoihthei".
>
> Oxi oloi oi ksenoi. Oi Italoi kai oi Ispanoi, se diabebaiwnw, den kratane th
> daseia, grafoun, p.x. idrofobia oxi hydrophobia.
>
Entaksei.Pantws h pleiopshfia twn ksenwn to sebetai.Ayto to opoio hthela
na pw einai oti oi ksenoi sebontai pragmata dika mas ta opoia emeis
katargoume ...Isws epeidh anagnwrizoun poly perissotero apo emas thn
aksia tous
> >Analoga paradeigmata sebasmou ths ellhnikhs glwssas apo tous ksenous
> >yparxoun polla.
> > Giayto h legomenh "aplopoihsh" einai kata th gnwmh mou ekousios
> >akrwthriasmos tou politismou mas.An yparxoun pio sobara epixeirhmata
> >gia to na fygoume apo thn "arxaia grafh" kai na kanoyme tis para
> >panw allages ,eyxaristws na ta akoysw .
>
> Twra, otan les arxaia grafh, exeis bebaia upopsh sou oti h arxaia grafh
> ths klasikhs epoxhs den eixe tonous kai pneumata, etsi? Ksereis oti
> ta shmadia gia tous tonous kai ta pneumata efeureqhkan apo tous
> aleksandrinous filologous ths ellhnistikhs epoxhs, kuriws gia logariasmo
> twn ksenwn pou maqainan ellhnika? Ksereis oti h xrhsh tous epiblhqhke
> meta ton 9o aiwna meta xriston, e?
>
Oi arxaioi ths klassikhs epoxhs kai nwritera egrafan mono kefalaia
xwris tonous alla ta diaforetika fwnhenta opws kai tous tonous tous
proferan sthn omiloumenh glwssa.
Me ton oro arxaia ellhnikh glwssa ennow olh thn ellhnikh glwssikh
mas paradosh, tis diafores arxaies dialektous ,tis allages kata thn
ellhnnistikh epoxh ,th glwssa ths agias grafhs, ayth twn
byzantinwn xronwn...
> >
> > Kai se parakalw na krathsoume ena epipedo sthn koybenta.Ta "les
> >patates" h "les malakies" den nomizw oti xreiazontai.
>
> To epipedo den eksartatai (mono) apo tis lekseis opws patates kai malakies.
> Kata thn tapeinh mou gnwmh, to na milas gia pragmata pou den ta exeis
> dei apo prwto xeri kai den ta ksereis, to na sukofanteis anqrwpous
> metaferontas
> koubentes pou den akouses me t' autia sou, to na brizeis ellhnes polites
> gia praktores ths agkuras epeidh diafwneis mazi tous, ola auta den sunistoun
> upshlo epipedo. To antiqeto malista.
>
> ns
1) Akousa me ta aytia mou tis apopseis 4 foithtwn tou mpampiniwth (se
dyo
diaforetikes periptwseis) pou mou eipan ayta pou egrapsa(epishs exw
akousei poly asxhmh kritikh gia syggramma ellhnikhs grammatikhs
tou mpampiniwth apo allo glwssologo.Se ayto den anaferthika sto
arxiko mynhma giati den thymamai to onoma tou sygkekrimenou
glwssologou (exei grapsei tis enstaseis tou aytes se biblio)
2) To oti den ta akousa apo to stoma tou idiou tou mpampiniwth to
anefera
kai gia ayto egrapsa sto arxiko mou gramma th frash oti "ta grafw me
epifylaksh.
3)Oti den exw akolouthisei filologikh alla "thetikh" kateythynsh kai
synepws eimai mh "eidikos" to egrapsa ki ayto.Sta shmeia pou den eimai
sigouros 100% gia kati grafw tis lekseis "nomizw" h "exw akoysei" klp.
Eimai sigoyros gia ayta ta opoia exw akousei apo eidikous
Alhtheia esy niko eisai filologos h glwssolologos?
4) den mou apanthses sto:
An ksanadiabaseis ayto pou exw grapsei tha deis oti de lew oti to
anaferei to "tourkos=mousoulmanos dytikhs thrakhs".Ayto pou lew einai
oti me to skeptiko ths dhthen episthmonikhs plhrothtas tha eprepe na
to
grapsei.Opws anaferei ayto pou elegan se poly sygkekrimenes stigmes
mia xoyfta xoyligkan, tha eprepe na anaferei ayto pou systhmatika
anaferoun diaforoi praktores ellhnes polites ,oti dhladh oi
mousoulmanoi ths thrakhs einai tourkoi.Malista na sou ypenthymisw oti
to lene kai OLOI oi mousoulmanoi bouleytes tou ellhnikou koinoboylioy
Epishs to lene giati to pisteyoun kai oxi gia na peiraksoun kapoion
h gia "xabale" opws symbainei me to "boylgaros".
Ayto pou anafereis oti:"to na brizeis ellhnes polites gia praktores
ths agkuras epeidh diafwneis mazi tous..." einai allo thema (to thema
an einai h oxi toyrkoi) To opoio an thes to syzhtame.Egw omws se
rwthsa giati den periexetai sto leksiko to parapanw sto lhmma "toyrkos"
5) Den mou apanthses sto:
Oson afora thn "episthmonikh plhrothta" enos leksikou ,den eida
se kanena sobaro amerikaniko leksiko na anaferetai h argkw twn
mayrwn sta gehto ths Amerikhs,ta legomena Ebonics.(exw mia lista
me tis lekseis tous kai einai na gelasei kathe pikramenos )
Ara,to na perilambanetai sta leksika h glwssikh saboyra kapoiwn
perithwriopoihmenwn atomwn den einai kai toso episthmonikh apopsh
diethnws.
Me bash ayto to skeptiko de dikaiologoymai na pw oti to "super
episthmoniko syggramma" tou k Mpampiniwth den einai kai toso
episthmoniko?
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
Nikos Sarantakos
At 12:45 ìì 28/05/98 -0600, Costas Tsatsoulis wrote:
>Nikos Sarantakos said:
>>
>> Ma eseis, agaphte, skate ga.idaro! Sas dinw parapompes, mou lete oti
>> "den exete problhma na to paradexteite" kai sto telos epimenete oti
>> "se kaqe periptwsh" h parapanw proeleush "den prepei na einai h swsth".
>> Kai auto, xwris na exete dei ta shmerina sxolika biblia -giati
>
>proswpikh gnwsh.
>
>--- Kwstas
>
Eisai sigouros? To blepeis kala? A geia sou, re satraph!
(Giati oi dikes mou exoun akoma na fane polla karbelia wspou
na pane sxoleio)
ns
Efthimios Tartaras
>a alla exouv tn dedomevn snmasia tous kai ubris eivai o
>xaraktnrismos tou allou etsi. To Boulgaros dnladn snmaivei Boulgaros,
>dev snmaivei PAOKtzns n' otidnpote. Givetai ubris otav les kapoiov
>Ellnva etsi, epeidn tou amfisbnteis tnv e8vikotnta. H evvoia Boulgaros
>pou tou apodideis omws (sukofavtika) eivai n kavovikn evvoia tou
>Boulgaros. Dev eivai etsi; Epomevws uparxei diafora. Kai to le3iko
>dev avaferei mia 2n evvoia, n opoia proekuye epeidn ligo-polu
>xaraktnrizei tous Boulgarous, pragmatika n' oxi, omws me ta Tourkos,
>Filipiveza k.a. P.x. avnlens sav tous komitatzndes n' kati tetoio.
>(Opote av les kapoiov etsi Boulgaro snmaivei oti tov perigrafeis sav
>maxairobgaltn komitatzn). Edw leei opados tou PAOK. Dev eivai to idio.
>Eivai kapoioi sugkekrimevoi, oi opoioi apokalouvtai Boulgaroi, opws o
>Mntsotakns gkavtemns, kai eipes oti fusika to teleutaio dev uparxei
>sto le3iko. Dev eivai dnl. to PAOKtzns b' evvoia tns le3ews Boulgaros,
>eivai n evvoia Boulgaros pou apodidetai stous PAOKtzndes.
Bravo re Feidia! Epitelous kapoios eipe auto pou prospa8ousa na ekfrasw! :-)
To na valeis th leksh "Boulgaros" me thn ermhneia gia tous Paoktshdes sto
leksiko shmainei oti dexesai oti auth h leksh exei automata kai auth thn
ermhneia. Dhladh oti ginetai to association: Boulgaroi ==> opadoi tou PAOK.
Auth einai h douleia tou leksikou. Oxi to amfidromo. Alliws 8a eprepe kai
sto "ksan8os" na exei ekshghsh "o Giannhs Iwannidhs". Ara to 8ema den einai
an to leksiko kategrapse to an oi Paoktshdes apokalountai apo kapoious
Boulgaroi. To 8ema einai an to "Boulgaroi" exei auth th SHMASIA.
8emhs
Nikos Sarantakos
Auto den perase xtes, giati to eixa steilei se allh ensarkwsh ths Hellas.
Na to ksanasteilw:
At 03:05 ìì 26/05/98 -0600, Efthimios Tartaras wrote:
>>Eipame, qa eprepe. An kai to skoulhkia den einai toso gnwsto sthn
>>upoloiph ellada -
>
>A8hna na les. Nai, oi areianoi mas lene "guftous". To oti to leksiko
>einai monomeres fainetai kai apo to oti den uparxei h leksh "xamoutzhs"
>pou xrhsimopoieitai eurews sth B.Ellada gia na dhlwsei kapoion apo th
>N.Ellada (xamw--> xamoutzhs)
Auto swsto. Thn apodeltiwsh tou, fantazomai, thn ekane sthn
Aqhna. Kai to pa.i.toni leipei, pou lete(?) eseis ekeipanw, kai h
oza, ki o rentes, ki alla pou ta lene oi edw qessalonikioi.
Kai genika leipoun ta paratsouklia twn diaforwn perioxwn,
ki auta pouqena den einai sugkentrwmena -px. sto strato, an qumamai
kala, tous Gianniwtes tous legane 'pagourades'
Alla ki eseis, bre Qemh, tosa xronia exete kai libanizete to leksiko
tou Kentrou Triantafullidh (h' kapws etsi) kai den to exete bgalei.
Otan bgei qa apokatastaqei h isorropia :-)
>
>Yparxei omws diafora. Den les "eisai Boulgaros" ston opoiodhpote. Den einai
>to idio me tis alles vrisies pou anafereis.
Swsto ki auto.
ns
Kostovassilis Vassilis
On Thu, 28 May 1998, Christos Minias wrote:
> kai gia na arxisw kai kamia fasaria )kairo exw na to kanw)
> 8a sas proteinw mias kai oi A8hnaioi exoun problhma me tous
> ypoloipous Ellhnes (idietera me tous Makedwnes) na ta
Kanena problhma den exoune oi A8hnaioi me tous ypoloipous Ellhnes.
Oi ypoloipoi Ellhnes mallon nomizoun oti oi A8hnaioi exoune problhma
mazi tous.
> xwrisoume ta tsanakia mas bre adelfe, kai na pame o ka8enas
> sthn eyxh tou 8eou kai tis panagias.
> H boreia Ellada na einai ane3arthto kratos (na doume tote
> pou 8a broune fai oi A8hnaioi), kai ta ghpeda na xtizonte
> apo dika mas lefta, kai oi dromoi na ftiaxnonte me dika mas
> lefta, kai opws lene kai sthn Ellada "me ton para mou gamw
> kai thn kyra mou".
Kai meta poious 8a bgazoume sto UEFA kai sto Korac?
Poioi 8a pairnoun ta prwta8lhmata B Ethikhs? :-)
Vassilis
Lida Anestidou
Phidias Bourlas wrote:
>
> Niko, diafwvw kai sto allo. O Mpampiviwtns leei oti ebale to
> "Boulgaros", epeidn uparxei stnv koivn xrnsn tns glwssas.
> Poios to 'pe auto; Dev avnkei stnv koivn xrnsn tns glwssas.
> Dev exei kammia sxesn me tnv koivn Ellnvikn glwssa.
> Xrnsimopoieitai, ka8' osov xrnsimoieitai, oxi stnv koivn glwssa,
> alla ws suv8nmatikos oros kapoiou eidikou epikoivwviakou kwdika
> kapoiwv orgavwsewv xouligkavs.
>
feidia, les saxlamares, tis gnwstes ahdies pou lene oi "apo
kat'ap't'aulaki" pou den exoun pathsei to podi tous sth boreia ellada.
se plhroforw oti einai koinh h xrhsh ths le3hs, oti thn akous na sthn
petane 8essalonikeis otan erxontai se opoiadhpote antipara8esh me
prwteyousianous se opoiondhpote xwro kai an briskontai. einai terastia
3eftyla na apokalountai boulgaroi apo tous notioelladites enw einai
hliou faeinoteron poso tous peirazei (kai me to dikio tous).
> Evdiaferov. Wstoso ti paei va pei "exouv kapote eipw8ei";
> Akoma kai av exouv eipw8ei kata la8os; Dnladn kai eva... sardam,
> eivai vea Ellnvikn le3n pou prepei va... katagrafei; Profavws oxi.
feidia, sofisteia epi sofisteias einai to mail sou.
poio sardam?
edw milame gia le3eis dokimes pou xrhsimopoiountai kataxrhstika gia na
dhlwsoun perifronhsh logw katagwghs.
Lhda
oso gia ton ka8e lazaridh, dikio exei o mpampiniwths, alla eprepe kai o
idios na balei kia oles tis alles paremfereis le3eis mesa stous tomous.
Nikos Sarantakos
At 05:08 ìì 28/05/98 +0300, Phidias Bourlas wrote:
>Niko, diafwvw kai sto allo. O Mpampiviwtns leei oti ebale to
>"Boulgaros", epeidn uparxei stnv koivn xrnsn tns glwssas.
>Poios to 'pe auto; Dev avnkei stnv koivn xrnsn tns glwssas.
>Dev exei kammia sxesn me tnv koivn Ellnvikn glwssa.
> Xrnsimopoieitai, ka8' osov xrnsimoieitai, oxi stnv koivn glwssa,
>alla ws suv8nmatikos oros kapoiou eidikou epikoivwviakou kwdika
>kapoiwv orgavwsewv xouligkavs.
Tsoukou. Sunqhmatikos oros den einai, oloi katalabainoun ti
shmainei.
Twra, an xrhsimopoieitai mono apo 100 xouligkan, auto
einai qema ektimhshs, ara en pollois upokeimeniko.
Sou qumizw omws oti exei apagoreutei me egkuklio
(ara, den einai memonwmeno fainomeno) kai
sou qumizw kai to tragoudi tou Panoush,
"Kagkela pantou" pou exei to stixo
"Boulgaroi, boulgaroi, xanoumises, bazeles ..."
> Evdiaferov. Wstoso ti paei va pei "exouv kapote eipw8ei";
>Akoma kai av exouv eipw8ei kata la8os; Dnladn kai eva... sardam,
>eivai vea Ellnvikn le3n pou prepei va... katagrafei; Profavws oxi.
Koita, enas Qhsauros exei oles tis emfaniseis olwn twn leksewn, meion
ta laqh antigrafhs. Gia profaneis logous, qhsauroi uparxoun mono gia
orioqethmenes xronikes periodous, p.x. to Thesaurus Linguae Grecae
pou exei *oles* tis ellhnikes lekseis apo ton Omhro mexri to 600mX.
An anoikseis to LintelSkot, h' akoma kalutera to ispaniko pou ftiaxnetai
twra, to DGE, qa deis oti perilambanoun lekseis pou apantoun
mia (1) mono fora sto sunolo twn arxaiwn keimenwn, kai pou polles
apo autes einai amfiboles. Fusika, kati tetoio den einai dunaton na ginei
gia mia twrinh glwssa, opou mesa se mia mera paragoume tosa keimena
osa olh h arxaia grammateia (pou leei o logos -alla' den prepei na peftw
kai toso eksw). Fusika, asteieuomoun otan sou egrapsa gia ton Qhsauro.
Alla' oti prepei na ginetai apodeltiwsh kai katagrafh prin bgei leksiko,
safws kai prepei.
> Telws pavtwv, vomizw epipleov oti dev mporei evas epistnmovas va mnv
>lambavei up' oyiv oles tis parametrous twv ekastote zntnmatwv, kai va
>perixarakwvetai sta steva, upoti8emeva, oria tns epistnmns tou.
> O Mpampiviwtns, opws kai va to kavoume, tnv patnse, kai dev eivai
>pia eukolo va 3emple3ei. Kala 8a kavei va diatnrnsei tnv yuxraimia tou
>kai va mnv parasur8ei, giati 8a blayei tov idio tou tov eauto, 8a
>gkremisei tov idio tou tov mu8o. Oi teleutaies avtipara8eseis tou stnv
>tnleorasn me tous katngorous tou ntav mallov apogonteutikes. Edeixve
>va exei xasei tnv yuxraimia tou, eixe mia stasn epi8etikn, eristikn
>kai prosblntikn gia to suvomilntn tou. ("Dev 8a mou pei o ka8e
>Lazaridns av 8a balw tn le3n".)
Dustuxws den eimai katw, alla' aurio erxomai, opote qa ta dw apo
prwto mati. Eida oti ton perielaban kai oi Pontioi. Logiko einai na
exei xasei thn psuxraimia tou otan balletai pantaxoqen gia mia
mpagkatela (qumasai ton St?)
Omws to pio apogohteutiko einai oti bghke ena kataplhktiko leksiko
kai exoume kollhsei se mia malakia, kai oti apagoreuthke, estw
proswrina, biblio apo dikasthrio les kai eimaste sto 1941. To biblio
auto einai polu xrhsimo kai pisteuw oti qa apotelesei polutimo bohqhma
sth leksikografia mas
ns
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
>
> O Mp. DEN leei na aplopoihqoun xa.inte-xa.inte oi difqoggoi. DEN leei
> na grafoume p.x. eFtuxia, eBelpis, pneBma.
>
> Twra, gia to pws bghke to aBgo apo to won, oriste ti lene oi glwssologoi:
>
> Apo sunekfora ta wa -> taoua ->taouga ->tabga -> ta abga -> to abgo.
> Auto DEN to brhke o Mpamp. prwtos, to proteine o Xatzhdakis. Rwta
> kai tous filous sou pou einai foithtes filosofikhs (an kai, ap'oti
> psulliazomai,
> stournaria qa einai) na sou poun oti o G. Xatzhdakis (oxi o Manos:-)
> einai o qemeliwths ths ellhnikhs glwssologias,
> stis arxes tou aiwna mas. Kai oti egrafe
> eis aptaiston kaqareuousan. An qeleis kai parapomph,
> einai G. Xatzhdaki "Mesaiwnika kai Nea Ellhnika", Tom. 2, s. 322
>
> Panapei, prokeitai gia mia apopsh pou exei kaqierwqei sthn
> ellhnikh glwssologia edw kai 70 peripou xronia. An oi filoi sou
> den to exoun akoma plhroforhqei, egw den ftaiw.
AN eisai APOLYTA sigouros giayto(to exeis diabasei se syggramata tou)
tote ,dedomenou oti eisai pio eidikos apo emena pou den exw
asxolhthei eidika me ayto to thema ,den exw problhma na to paradextw
Wstoso otan ksanaelthw se epafh me tous filologous(pleon) gnwstous mou
tha epibebaiwsw an ekanan lathos se ayta pou mou eixan pei paliotera
gia thn ekshghsh tou mpampiniwth(aplopoihsh) kathws kai thn proeleysh
tou "aygo" kai abgo (h afti klp)kai tha epanelthw sto thema.(stis
paradoseis etsi to eixan katalabei opws to periegrapsa sto arxiko
gramma).Pantws se kathe periptwsh efoson den periexetai sta ekpaideytika
biblia o sygkekrimenos typos h parapanw proeleysh pou paretheses den
prepei na einai h swsth.
> > Germanika den gnwrizw omws ta rwsika den sthrixthikan sto kyrriliko
> > alfabhto pou aneptyksan oi kyrillos kai Methodios kata ton 8o (an
> >thymamai kala) aiwna m.X. ?To sygkekrimeno alfabhto eixe proelthei apo
> >to ellhniko.Einai dynato na exei toso megalh "anaptyksh" mia glwssa
> >ths opoias h grafh (to arxiko alfabhto) htan daneismenh apo allh glwssa
> >kai apla prosarmosthke sthn proforikh glwssa ?Kai malista otan ayto
> >exei ginei toso prosfata(sxetika me thn ellhnikh)
>
> Th sxesh exei apo pou phran to alfabhto oi rwsoi me to an h glwssa
> tous exei auth h' thn allh domh? H' me to an einai plousia h' oxi?
> Telos pantwn, sfalma mou pou eqiksa auto to qema, dioti einai
> fanero oti ksekiname apo diaforetikes afethries. M' aresei omws
> pou apofainesai gia ton plouto mias glwssas xwris na th
> gnwrizeis.
>
Des kai to arxiko pou eixa grapsei pou diasafhnizei ton oro "anaptyksh":
>Einai isws h monadikh glwssa
>h ellhnikh h opoia exei toso sygkekrimeno kai sxedon mathimatiko
>"skeleto".
Kai se erwtw ksana.An paroume p.x. ta iapwnika kai tous baloume
to ellhniko alfabhto (h paragwgo tou) katargwntas ta ideogrammata
pisteyeis oti h nea iapwnikh grafh tha exei th mathimatikh domh
(grammatikoi kanones klp) pou exei shmera?Poso mallon pou h
sygkekrimenh glwssa(rwssikh) den eixe kan grafh prohgoumenws opote h
grafh pou epinohsan oi kyrrilos kai methodios gia tous slavous prohlthe
apo to mhden.Epishs bale mesa kai to gegonos oti to xroniko
diasthma ekselikshs ths glwssas einai kata merikes dekades aiwnes
mikrotero apo thn ellhnikh.Kai sou to ksanaypenthymizw:den lew
oti ta rwssika h oi alles slabikes glwsses einai ftwxes,milaw
gia th domh tous _SYGKRITIKA_ me ta ellhnika.Se parakalw mhn
diastrefeis ayta pou lew gia na ta pas ekei pou thes.(to exeis
kanei polles fores sta 2-3 mynhmata apanthseis pou mou esteiles)
> >> Me tis legomenes aplopoihseis (polles apo tis opoies
> >> >exoun hdh syntelestei sth nea ellhnikh) katstrefetai o "istos" ths
> >> >glwssas.Payoun dhladh oi lekseis na exoun ayth thn mathimatikh
> >> >sxesh h mia me thn allh kai h glwssa mas fthinei.
> >>
> >> Ena paradeigmataki parakalw, aplopoihshs pou katestrepse ton isto?
> >> Gia na katalabw peri tinos prokeitai, dhladh.
> >
> >Ma sou anefera hdh polles fores,mhn ta grafw pali ta idia.Des kai
> >ayta egrapsa prohgoymenws
>
> Kanena paradeigma den edwses sugkekrimeno, mono to augo/abgo
> pou einai laqos.
Bre sou eipa:katarghsh twn difthoggwn ,twn pollaplwn fwnhentwn(ta pio
akraia)mexri katastrathghsh tou sygkritikou bathmoy(bl.kalyterwteros),
thn antikatastash tou w apo o: περπατόντας anti περπατώντας(otan
tonizetai),to teliko n sta arthra p.x. ton dromo klp klp(gia na mh sou
pw gia to polytoniko pou einai megalh koubenta).Efoson eisai metafrasths
ksereis ki esy polla paradeigmata twn legomenwn "aplopoihsewn" ths
glwssas mas pou einai apla petsokopsimo.Bebaia eisai louksembourgo
kai den polyblepeis ti ginetai sta entypa kai sta MME edw sthn ellada.
>
> >
> >> O ploutos ths
> >> >ellhnikhs glwssas einai pou thn exei diathrhsei gia xiliades
> >> >xronia (monadiko fainomeno pagkosmia)
> >>
> >> Sxedon monadiko. Bl. kinezika, isws kai ebre.ika
> >
> >Exoun toso megalh syggeneia ta arxaia kinezika kai ta arxaia ebraika
> >me tis shmera omiloumenes glwsses tous, oso ta arxaia me ta twrina
> >ellhnika?
>
> Ta arxaia ebre.ika (upotiqetai oti) einai h idia glwssa me ta shmerina.
> Afou thn anasthsane. (Giauto kai ebala isws, giati h glwssa ektos
> qrhskeutikou xwrou den miliotan)
> Kinezika den kserw :-)) exw omws diabasei oti nai, einai sthn
> idia kathgoria me ta ellhnika.
>
> >>
> >> kai exei odhghsei sto na
> >> >exoun xrhsimopoihthei ellhnikoi oroi kata 50-80% stis episthmes
> >> >(to pososto diaferei analoga me thn episthmh).
> >>
> >> Ellhnogeneis, oxi ellhnikoi. Den einai ellhnikos oros p.x. to telegraphy.
> >> Einai ellhnogenhs. Ta exoume ksanasuzhthsei auta (oxi emeis oi duo).
> >> Oso gia to 50-80% mou fainetai oti ta parales. Eidika se neoterous
> >> kladous, p.x. upologistes, qa ebaza < 20% gia na mhn pw <10%.
> >
> >Exei bgei biblio apo enan ellhna ereynhth (mou diafeygei to onoma tou
> >ayth th stigmh) to opoio periexei 150000 ellhnikes lekseis (ama thes
> >pestes ellhnogeneis ,den einai ekei to problhma) sthn agglikh glwssa.
>
> Kwnstantinidhs.
>
> >To sygkekrimeno biblio timhthike apo thn akadhmia athinwn prin 3
> >peripou mhnes.Stous ypologistes einai mikrotero to pososto ayto alla
> >oxi genika stous newterous kladous ths episthmhs.Oi newteroi kladoi
> >xrhsimopoioyn orous apo palious kladous p.x. mathimatika,fysikh,
> >biologia klp opote synexizoun na exoun ellhnikous orous.Allwste
> >ayth h plhthwra ellhnnikwn leksewn stis ksenes den ofeiletai sto oti
> >oi ksenoi "mas agapane" ( :) ) alla 1)ston ployto ths ellhnikhs
> >glwssas kai thn eswterikh ths domh pou kathista eukolh thn paragwgh
> >newn orwn pou perigrafoun epakribws ayto pou theloume 2)sthn
> >enasxolhsh arxaiwn episthmonwn me tis episthmes me apotelesma na exoun
> >onomatisei polla fainomena klp
>
> Diafwnw sto 1).
> Ofeiletai kuriws sto 2)
To 1) to eipe o idios o Kwstantinidhs se synenteyksh tou san kyrio
logo yiothethshs ellhnikwn orwn stis episthmes
> kai: a) sthn klasikh paideia pollwn apo tous megalous episthmones
> tou parelqontos
De diafwnw oti yphrxe ayth.An den ikseran ellhnika pws tha ikseran thn
aksia tous kai pws tha ta xrhsimopoiousan ?Giayto an thes einai
meiwmenh h yiothethsh ellhnikwn orwn se orismenes newteres thetikes
episthmes opws stous ypologistes, opou aytoi pou bgazoun tous orous
tis perissoteres fores den kseroun kan ellhnika.Wstoso eksakolouthoun
na xrhsimopoiountai ellhnogeneis oroi eksaitias kyriws ths yiothethshs
paragwgwn ellhnikwn orwn ths agglikhs.
> b) sthn terastia aiglh tou ellhnikou politismou kai twn ellhnwn filosofwn
> kata thn anagennhsh
Yphrxe kai ayth.
> g) [auto gia ton aiwna mas] sto oti ta ellhnika einai pio oudetera
> apo ta latinika, pou "suggeneuoun" pio polu me mia megalh glwssa
> (ta gallika) para' me tis alles duo (agglika kai germanika) ki etsi
> kriqhkan katallhlotera gia dieqneis orous.
> Gia to qema auto, des to biblio "The loom of language"
Ayto isws na isxyei se orismenes periptwseis alla de nomizw na isxyei
stis perissoteres.Den nomizw oti h pleiopshfia twn episthmonwn
tha xrhsimopoiouse mia ,akatanohth gia tous pollous, glwssa gia antlhsei
orous mono kai mono gia na mh moiazoun oi oroi sta gallika
(bazeis ethnikistikous logous an katalaba kala).Pisteyw oti tha
protimousan orous pou "tous thymizoun"thn antistoixh ennoia sthn mhtrikh
tous glwssa,pragma to opoio petyxainetai eykolotera me ta latinika
para me ta ellhnika
> Koita, o Mpamp. den einai qeos, oute euaggelio. Apo palia uphrxan
> polloi pou diafwnousan mazi tou sto ena h' to allo zhthma. Mono pou,
> kata periergo tropo, enw o anqrwpos einai sunthrhtikotatos kai deksios,
> ki enw mexri prin apo 5-6 xronia etrwge ta moustakia tou me tous
> aristerous kai tous dhmotikistes, dioti bebaia dhmotikisths den einai,
> edw kai ligo kairo exoun arxisei na tou thn peftoun prwta oi pelasgoi
> moutzaxentin tou Daulou, kai meta' oi diaforoi eqnikofrones. Polu
> diaskedastiko fainomeno :-)
>
Ti mou ta les ayta peri politikwn pepoithisewn,daylou klp?Yponoeis
oti ayto einai to kinhtro mou?De nomizw na sou edwsa kammia labh
gia na to peis ayto.Synepws ta antistoixa yponooymena oti eimai
"moutzaxentin tou Daulou" einai sykofanties
> Koita, egw exw teleiwsei prwta polutexneio kai meta filosofikh, alla' basika
> metafrasths eimai edw kai pollaaa xronia, opote pisteuw oti kati
> kserw gi' auta pou lew.
Tote ksereis perissotera apo emena.Alla sou epanalambanw oti ayta
pou egrapsa me sigouria (xwris "kata th gnwmh mou") einai apopseis
pou exw akousei apo filologous h glwssologous
>
> >4) den mou apanthses sto:
> > An ksanadiabaseis ayto pou exw grapsei tha deis oti de lew oti to
> > anaferei to "tourkos=mousoulmanos dytikhs thrakhs".Ayto pou lew einai
> > oti me to skeptiko ths dhthen episthmonikhs plhrothtas tha eprepe na
> >to
> > grapsei.
>
> Me to skeptiko opws esu to katalabaineis, pou den to katalabaineis orqa.
>
> Opws anaferei ayto pou elegan se poly sygkekrimenes stigmes
> > mia xoyfta xoyligkan, tha eprepe na anaferei ayto pou systhmatika
> > anaferoun diaforoi praktores ellhnes polites ,oti dhladh oi
> > mousoulmanoi ths thrakhs einai tourkoi.Malista na sou ypenthymisw oti
> > to lene kai OLOI oi mousoulmanoi bouleytes tou ellhnikou koinoboylioy
> > Epishs to lene giati to pisteyoun kai oxi gia na peiraksoun kapoion
> > h gia "xabale" opws symbainei me to "boylgaros".
>
> E, oxi kai mia xoufta xouligkan. Mhn eqelotufloume. Legetai edw kai
> polla xronia, dustuxws, kai apo pollous, dustuxws. Prwth fora pou
> to akousa egw htan sto noikiasmeno traino tou Koskwta stis Serres,
> otan olo to traino kraugaze "Boulgaroi roufianoi, hrqe to limani"
> -kai teleutaia fora, proxtes ston teliko tou mpasket.
>
Legetai (kyriws legoTAN) apo mia xoufta(100-200 atoma)xouligkans .
Einai oi idioi pou spane ta magazia kai ton hlektriko meta apo kathe
agwna.
> Gia tous mousoulmanous, an qewroun eautous tourkous, den dinoun
> mia nea ennoia sth leksh tourkos, opws katalabaineis. Epeidh omws,
> outws h' allws, oi anqrwpoi autoi den exoun mhtrikh glwssa ta ellhnika,
> mou fainetai paralogo na lhfqoun upopsh se ena leksiko ellhnikhs glwssas.
>
Den einai tourkoi.Mono mia meiopshfia einai tourkogeneis.Otan lene
kapoioi (osoi arithmhtika lene kai to boulgaroi) oti einai oloi tourkoi
tote dinoun kataxrhstikh ermhneia sthn ennoia tourkos afou onomazoun
etsi 1)tous tourkogeneis ellhnes polites 2) tous pomakous 3)tous
tsigganous.Gia na mh sou pw kai to oti oi dyo teleytaies kathgories
to thewroun kai brisia to tourkos.
Ara me th logikh mpampiniwth prepei na anaferthei sto leksiko
kai ayth h kataxrhstikh-ybristikh prosfwnhsh.
Les oti den exoun mhtrikh glwssa ta ellhnika.Wstoso oloi aytoi
milane ellhnika.Ara kai aytoi einai ypopshfioi anagnwstes tou
leksikou. Kai se rwtaw: opws prepei o opoiosdhpote ellhnas
poliths na "enhmerwthei" (panta symfwna me ton mpampiniwth)
oti boylgaros legetai sta ghpeda o opados ths thessalonikhs
den prepei na mathei kai oti tourkos legetai o mousoulmanos
ths thrakhs (pali kataxrhstika-ybristika) stis propagandistikes
sygkentrwseis kapoiwn mousoulmanwn sth thrakh?Oi men einai
anegkefaloi xouligkan oi de praktores ths aggyras kai ligostoi
afeleis mousoulmanoi.
Gia des loipon to poso epikindynh einai h syllogistikh mpampiniwth
Des kai to allo mynhma mou epi tou thematos (pou anaferomai
stis allages sta balkania ,th boulgaria kai tis nees gkrizes zwnes
gia na katalabeis th shmasia pou exoun oi anafores aytes sta leksika.
> >
> >5) Den mou apanthses sto:
> > Oson afora thn "episthmonikh plhrothta" enos leksikou ,den eida
> > se kanena sobaro amerikaniko leksiko na anaferetai h argkw twn
> > mayrwn sta gehto ths Amerikhs,ta legomena Ebonics.(exw mia lista
> > me tis lekseis tous kai einai na gelasei kathe pikramenos )
> > Ara,to na perilambanetai sta leksika h glwssikh saboyra kapoiwn
> > perithwriopoihmenwn atomwn den einai kai toso episthmonikh apopsh
> > diethnws.
> > Me bash ayto to skeptiko de dikaiologoymai na pw oti to "super
> > episthmoniko syggramma" tou k Mpampiniwth den einai kai toso
> > episthmoniko?
>
> Exeis omws dei, fantazomai, sta sobara leksika na perilambanontai
> oroi ths slangk h' oxi? Ekei einai to zhthma.
>
> Twra, epeidh to qema den to kserw kala', ki
> epeidh ta emponiks einai kainourgia moda, den qelw na epektaqw.
> Safws prokeitai gia diaforetikh periptwsh (kapoioi lene oti ta emp.
> einai *allh glwssa* pou prepei na didasketai).
>
> ns
_Merikoi_ oroi slang perilambanontai sta leksika, kyriws phrasal
verbs pou den ksefeygoun omws shmantika apo tous antistoixous
"epishmous" orous ths agglikhs.
Omws egw sou lew gia oloklhrh kathgoria slang pou menei apeksw kai
se rwtaw ,einai ligotero episthmonika ta megalytera amerikanika
leksika pou den ta periexoun(kai den ta periexoun syneidhta epeidh
ta thewroun kakopoihsh ths agglikhs glwssas)
Gia na doume merika deigmata kai na katalaboume an einai allh glwssa
ta legomena "ebonics" (na gelasoume kai ligo)
Se parakalw ypedeikse mou kapoio sobaro amerikaniko leksiko pou na
exei tis ekshghseis.
Arxika merika Thrhskeytikou periexomenou...
Big Daddy's Rap --> The Lord's Prayer
Yo, Big Daddy upstairs Our Father, who is in heaven
Gimme some eats Give us this day our daily bread
Straight up Amen
kai ligo akatallhla(ta pio soft):
Yo mama ---> katalabainete ...
Shit goes down in da hood ---> people get shot in the neighbourhood
dress yo self in da morn in which of deese ---> dress yourself at the
morning in one of these...
You be sayin' it, I be doin' it This will be done
Haff Half
Da uther haff --> the other half
brotha brother
chil child
rat right
An einai ayta allh glwssa diaforetikh apo ta agglika, tote
ti einai ta: mou th bghkes ,egine rompa,gelio ths arkoudas klp pou
anaferontai sto leksiko mpampiniwth?
Alla profanws ta amerikanika panepisthmia kai ekdotikoi oikoi
den exoun tetoious tromerous episthmones san ton mpampiniwth gia na ta
symperilaboun...
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
> >AN eisai APOLYTA sigouros giayto(to exeis diabasei se syggramata tou)
> >tote ,dedomenou oti eisai pio eidikos apo emena pou den exw
> >asxolhthei eidika me ayto to thema ,den exw problhma na to paradextw
> >Wstoso otan ksanaelthw se epafh me tous filologous(pleon) gnwstous mou
> >tha epibebaiwsw an ekanan lathos se ayta pou mou eixan pei paliotera
> >gia thn ekshghsh tou mpampiniwth(aplopoihsh) kathws kai thn proeleysh
> >tou "aygo" kai abgo (h afti klp)kai tha epanelthw sto thema.(stis
> >paradoseis etsi to eixan katalabei opws to periegrapsa sto arxiko
> >gramma).Pantws se kathe periptwsh efoson den periexetai sta ekpaideytika
> >biblia o sygkekrimenos typos h parapanw proeleysh pou paretheses den
> >prepei na einai h swsth.
>
> "den exete problhma na to paradexteite" kai sto telos epimenete oti
> "se kaqe periptwsh" h parapanw proeleush "den prepei na einai h swsth".
> Kai auto, xwris na exete dei ta shmerina sxolika biblia -giati
> oti ekei sto Polutexneio pou eiste ta kitapia sas milane gia enallaktes
> qermothtas kai skurodema, oxi "Lola, pare ena abgo. Na ena mhlo"
>
Deite auto pou egrapsa ksana.To thelete akomh pio apla?Den exw thn
eidikeysh gia na gnwrizw pws proekypse h leksh aygo h abgo,ayti h afti
klp
Wstoso ayto de mou afairei to dikaiwma na metaferw kriseis eidikwn
panw stis opoies sthrixthike kai h arxikh mou parathrhsh epi tou
thematos
Ara ayta pou grapsate gia thn proeleysh ths leksews tha ta metaferw
stous eidikous(filologous) gnwstous mou kai an den eystathoun tha
epanelthw epi tou thematos.Mexri tote mporeite na thewreite oti
dexomai thn apopsh sas me ena omws eulogo erwthmatiko.Efoson einai
episthmonika swsth h grafh pou proteinete(eseis o k.mpampiniwths kai
oi alloi pou anaferate) giati mexri twra den xrhsimopoieitai sta
ekpaideytika biblia?Mhpws h pleiopshfia twn episthmonwn exei
antitheth apopsh ?Den einai eulogh h aporia?
Kserete emeis sto polytexneio to shmantikotero pou mathainoyme den einai
oi enallaktes thermothtas to skyrodema klp alla o episthmonikos
tropos skepshs .
> An qelete kai alles parapompes gia thn orqografia abgo, anoikste to
> etumologiko leksiko tou Andriwth (den kanei kako).
> Kai prin amfisbhthsete
> ton patriwtismo tou Andriwth, deite to biblio pou exei grapsei (apo to
> 1960) gia thn pseudwnumh glwssa twn Skopiwn.
Pou kollaei ayto?
> Epeidh eseis eiste allou eidous taraxh kai, opws kai oi aksiotimoi
> sunadelfoi sas Barwnos kai Karras (eimai bebaios oti tous gnwrizete)
> apofaineste gia qemata peri twn opoiwn elaxista skampazete,
> kleinw edw ta glwssologika. Mporeite na upoqesete oti fugomaxw
> kai oti me exete katatropwsei.
>
> ns
>
> YG
> Sthn pragmatikothta, paw na ftiaksw balitses giati aurio prwi petaw.
>
> YG2
> Sas enoxlhse ki esas to "kaluteroteros" kai to qewreite deigma parakmhs
> ths glwssas? An einai etsi, h parakmh exei arxisei apo polu palia,
> opote den ftaime emeis -h leksh "kallistoteros" uparxei ston (buzantino)
> sxoliasth twn Batraxwn tou Aristofanh, oso gia to "kallistotatos" kai
> "megistotatos" apantoun kamposes fores sthn Istoria tou Megalou
> Aleksandrou (prokeitai gia palio keimeno -oxi polu arxaio, alla' pantws
> ths usterhs arxaiothtas).
Na eiste kala kyrie sarantako
Deiksate to poion sas me to na apantate epilektika se ayta mono pou
thelete kai na kanete pws den katalabainete ti ennow.
Den exw idea poioi einai oi barwnos-karras (karra kserw mono ton
tragoudisth)
Ta kallistoteros kai kallistotatos einai dhmotikh?Apo pote?
Egw sas eipa gia "kalyterwteros" kathws kai polles alles periptwseis
kakopoihsews ths ellhnikhs.Mporeite na mou peite ena egkrito biblio
opou anaferetai to kalyterwteros ?Sas parakalw mhn aposiwpate kai
ta ypoloipa shmeia kakopoihshs ths glwssas pou ethiksa.
Epeita an kati anaferetai se ena keimeno sxoliasth apo to byzantio
h akomh kai paliotera den to kathista aytomata egkyro grammatiko
typo.Na sas ypenthymisw oti ektos apo tous megalous syggrafeis
yphrxan kai mikroteroi h kai ashmoi syggrafeis h sxoliastes(kapoioi
malista twn opoiwn ta onomata agnooyntai).Gia na mhn thiksw to thema
oti polla apo ta keimena pou diaswthikan htan antigrafes antigra'fwn
apo monaxous gia thn pistothta twn opoiwn den eimaste kai 100%
sigouroi...
> kleinw edw ta glwssologika. Mporeite na upoqesete oti fugomaxw
> kai oti me exete katatropwsei.
Ayto einai to problhma.Blepete to dialogo ws polemo.
Parakalw kyrie sarantako na mou apanthsete kai sta ypoloipa 3/4 ths
epistolhs pou sas esteila.Oso ki an eirwneyeste kai apodidete
xarakthrismous den prokeitai na sas akolouthisw.Ekei pou teleiwnoun ta
epixeirhmata arxizoun oi proswpikes epitheseis.
Sas epanalambanw ta anapanthta erwthmata:
thn antikatastash tou w apo o: ðåñðáôüíôáò anti ðåñðáôþíôáò(otan
Yphrxe kai ayth.
Edw paremballw to allo mhnyma pou esteila gia na sas dieykolynw:
Apo to Reuters:
The dictionary notes that ``Bulgarians'' is used in Greek slang as a
pejorative term for supporters or players of sports teams in
Thessaloniki, which is near the Bulgarian border.
Apo thn efhmerida Liberation:
"H Qessalonikh apotelei
> antikeimeno polemikhs metaksu Boulgarias kai Elladas apo ton kairo
> ths prosarthshs ths apo thn teleutaia to 1912".
Alla MME tha akolouthisoun
Alhtheia fantazontan kaneis th dekaetia tou 50 ,otan to omospondo
kratidio twn skopiwn epairne to onoma makedonia (mesa sthn kratikh
ontothta giougkoslabia) ti tha ginotan meta 50 xronia?
Na ypenthymisw oti h boulgaria den exei anagnwrisei ta skopia me to
onoma "Macedonia" giati -opws diateinontai- macedonia=Boulgaria?
Na ypenthimisw tis meletes gia to ti tha ginei an yparksei anafleksh
sta balkania?
Mhpws kapoioi dinoun to dikaiwma se """filous""" sto mellon na poyn:
"oriste,monoi sas to grafete oti thessalonikh=boulgaria,kyttakste
ta leksika sas".
Mhpws kapoioi _ANEGKEFALLOI_ pane na dhmioyrghsoun nees gkrizes zwnes?
To epanalmbanw,mhn skefteste me ta dedomena tou shmera alla kyttakste
ligo to mellon.Poios ta fantazotan ta shmerina 20 xronia prin?
Mhpws tha prepei na fylame ta royxa mas...
MHPWS?
Arxika merika Thrhskeytikou periexomenou...
Zhtw syggnwmh apo tous anagnwstes ths listas gia to makroskeles
tou grammatos
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
> edw kai panw apo 7-8 xronia, giati mou eixan kanei asxhmh entypwsh,
> megalwmenos sthn ka0areuousa. Alla, ola ta synh0izei kaneis. 8-)
>
> --- Kwstas
Egw den ta eixa synanthsei.Se poia biblia anaferontai?
Sth "glwssa mou" ,sta nea ellhnika h allou?Taksh?
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
> To le3iko einai terastio (mexri twra se dyo Original CD's)
> nomizw briskonte se 100,000 + le3hs gia thn wra.
>
takshs tou 1.000.000
100000 den einai tipote an fantasteis oti sthn sygxronh agglikh
yparxoun 150000 ellhnikoi oroi.
> O dhmiourgos tou o *anashs Anagnostopoulos, kai mia apo tous
> kyrious Xrhmatodotes h Mary Ann MacDonald to 3ekinhsan
> arketa Xronia prin (den 8hmame pote alla toulaxiston prin
> mia dekaetia) kai proxwroun me dyskolia sto ergo tous giati
> sthn ousia h xrhmatodothsh egine apo prwsopika kaifalea
> Ellhnwn kai filellhnwn.
>
Athanath ellada!!!Xrhmatodoteis mono tous "hmeterous"...
> Twra monon ta teleytea dyo xronia nomizw phrane kapoia
> boh8eia apo thn kybernhsh se morfh xwrou pou tous
> parasxe8hke sthn plaka.
>
> Telos pantwn ayta gia thn wra.
>
> YG.
> kai gia na arxisw kai kamia fasaria )kairo exw na to kanw)
> 8a sas proteinw mias kai oi A8hnaioi exoun problhma me tous
> ypoloipous Ellhnes (idietera me tous Makedwnes) na ta
> xwrisoume ta tsanakia mas bre adelfe, kai na pame o ka8enas
> sthn eyxh tou 8eou kai tis panagias.
> H boreia Ellada na einai ane3arthto kratos (na doume tote
> pou 8a broune fai oi A8hnaioi), kai ta ghpeda na xtizonte
> apo dika mas lefta, kai oi dromoi na ftiaxnonte me dika mas
> lefta, kai opws lene kai sthn Ellada "me ton para mou gamw
> kai thn kyra mou".
>
> Tote mporei na peisoume kai tous malakes tous Skopianous na
> ma8oun Ellhnika, kai na enw8oun me tous Boulgaro-Makedwnes
> kai na 3anaftia3oume thn Makedwnikh Dynastia, (na
> 3anagamhsoume merika A8hnaihka kolarakia ama laxei).
>
Megale oute gia asteia na mhn ta anaferoume ayta...
> Syggnwmh apo olous tous A8hnaious pou exoun myalo kai sofia,
> kai oute pisteyw ta parapanw sta sobara, alla aplws 8elw na
> dei3w ena senario politikou xaous pou h A8hna me thn
> symperifora ths epibalh.
>
> Ti nomizete perimenoun oi Skopianoi?
>
Ama arxsisoume na xwrizomaste se athinaious,makedones,thrakiwtes
krhtikous,hpeirwtes klp XATHIKAME.
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
Homer Faidas
Costas Tsatsoulis wrote:
> Nikos Sarantakos said:
> >
> > >Ta shmerina sxolika fiblia lene "abgo", "afti" kai "treno". Sas milaw apo
> > >proswpikh gnwsh.
> > >
> > >--- Kwstas
> > >
> > Eisai sigouros? To blepeis kala? A geia sou, re satraph!
> > (Giati oi dikes mou exoun akoma na fane polla karbelia wspou
> > na pane sxoleio)
>
> Eimai apolytws sigouros. Malista to "afti" kai to "treno" to 0ymamai
> edw kai panw apo 7-8 xronia, giati mou eixan kanei asxhmh entypwsh,
> megalwmenos sthn ka0areuousa. Alla, ola ta synh0izei kaneis. 8-)
>
> --- Kwstas
Pavtws se duo diaforetika biblia tns A dnmotikou pou exei n korn mou
to auti (autia) grafetai auti eftixos akomn.
1) H glwssa mou (A dnm., A teuxos) ekdoseis Sabbala 1995 sel. 133.
2) H glwssa mou (A dnm., B teuxos) ekdoseis Mivwa 1995 sel.95
omnros
ug. fusika ta movterva alfabntaria eivai xalia. Eutuxws pou epavekdidovtai
ta biblia tns dekaetias 50-60. Dev mporeite va favtasteite ti avamvnseis
fervouv ta avagvwstika tns A dnmotikou.
Vasilakis Fykos
Telika o 40kos thn peftei spania,
alla opote thn peftei einai lira 100:
On 28 May 98, at 20:29, Dionyshs Papadopoulos wrote:
> 5) Den mou apanthses sto:
> Oson afora thn "episthmonikh plhrothta" enos leksikou ,den eida
> se kanena sobaro amerikaniko leksiko na anaferetai h argkw twn
> mayrwn sta gehto ths Amerikhs,ta legomena Ebonics.
Edv ginetai sobarh syzhthsh na perilhfoyn ta ebonics san epishmh
glvssa toy ekpaideytikoy systhmatos. Egine ektetamenh syzhthsh ston
akadhmaiko xvro, esy den akoyses tipota?
Kai ta ebonics DEN einai argkv, einai glvssiko idivma.
> (exw mia lista
> me tis lekseis tous kai einai na gelasei kathe pikramenos )
Gelaei o pikamenos kai o mvros (k'an ti mh geloio ei)
> Ara,to na perilambanetai sta leksika h glwssikh saboyra kapoiwn
> perithwriopoihmenwn atomwn den einai kai toso episthmonikh apopsh
> diethnws.
Saboyra einai ayta poy grafeis. Ta ebonics einai agglika
paramorfvmena apo th xrhsh afrikogennoys syntaktikoy.
Einai kommati ths paradoshs kapoion anurvpvn.
To idio kai ta Patois.
Poios eisai esy na krineis ton politismo (h' thn elleipsh aytoy)
oloklhrvn koinothtvn elafra th kardIa kai xvris na gnvrizeis oyte
epifaneiaka to zhthma?
Kai ti koyradoelitismos einai aytos oti "h episthmh den asxoleitai me
to periuorio"..
> Me bash ayto to skeptiko de dikaiologoymai na pw oti to "super
> episthmoniko syggramma" tou k Mpampiniwth den einai kai toso
> episthmoniko?
Me bash to skeptiko soy dikaiologoymai na uaymasv ton 40ako poy gia
allh mia fora ebgale tsipoyra.
Koyfala 40ako, ta panta en sofia epoihses..
Vasilakis, etvn 19 kai tria terata
Athanassios Protopapas
Eipe veos ovomati Diovusns Papadopoulos:
>Kai se erwtw ksana.An paroume p.x. ta iapwnika kai tous baloume
>to ellhniko alfabhto (h paragwgo tou) katargwntas ta ideogrammata
>pisteyeis oti h nea iapwnikh grafh tha exei th mathimatikh domh
>(grammatikoi kanones klp) pou exei shmera?Poso mallon pou h
>sygkekrimenh glwssa(rwssikh) den eixe kan grafh prohgoumenws opote h
>grafh pou epinohsan oi kyrrilos kai methodios gia tous slavous prohlthe
>apo to mhden.Epishs bale mesa kai to gegonos oti to xroniko
>diasthma ekselikshs ths glwssas einai kata merikes dekades aiwnes
>mikrotero apo thn ellhnikh.Kai sou to ksanaypenthymizw:den lew
>oti ta rwssika h oi alles slabikes glwsses einai ftwxes,milaw
>gia th domh tous _SYGKRITIKA_ me ta ellhnika.Se parakalw mhn
>diastrefeis ayta pou lew gia na ta pas ekei pou thes.(to exeis
> kanei polles fores sta 2-3 mynhmata apanthseis pou mou esteiles)
Kai diarrngvuw ta imatia mou o amartwlos. Ti akribws 9a pei "n domn tous
sugkritika me ta ellnvika"; Se poia domn avaferesai kai apo pou avtleis
ta stoixeia pou tekmnriwvouv tnv apoyn autn; Kai ti sxesn exei n domn
tns glwssas me tov tropo grafns tns; Ti 3ereis telos pavtwv gia tis
slabikes glwsses; (Gia ta Iapwvika DEN 3ereis oti exouv treis grafes,
ek twv opoiwv oi duo sullabografikes kai n tritn deveika Kivezika
ideogrammata, opote kavw tis avaloges upo9eseis). Sumfwva ma tn suxgrovn
glwssologia kai tis apoyeis gia tn fusn tns glwssas kai tns vonsns, oles
oi glwsses exouv tnv idia domn "sto ba9os" (pws leme kata ba9os eivai kalo
paidi; :-)) alla ekfrazouv ta (idia) vonmata stnv "epifaveia" (dnladn stous
suvduasmous le3ewv stis protaseis pou legovtai) me diaforetikous tropous.
Paradeigmatos xariv, alles glwsses basizovtai se klitika sustnmata me ptwseis
ousiastikwv kai proswpa rnmatos ki alles xrnsimopoiouv gia tous idious skopous
tn seira twv le3ewv, pro9eseis, kai avtwvumies. Kai polles polles alles
diafores pou omws telika ekfrazouv tnv idia glwssikn domn, mesa apo diaforetikn
morfologia kai suvta3n. Ti mas leei auto gia "tov plouto" mias glwssas
evavti mias allns; (Na bon9nsw: n apavtnsn eivai TIPOTA).
Mnpws paravonsa auto pou les (n' pou to pas);
0avasns
-allou-
Athanassios Protopapas
To kata 40ko avagvwsma:
>To mpaxalo ths neas ellhnikhs se megalo baqmo uphrxe kai
>sthn arxaia. Dioti, bebaia, oi aplopoihseis einai polu palio pragma
>(arxisan apo pro xristou) kai h anamiksh to idio.
Toso to xeirotero gia to moutzaxevtiv. :-) To mpaxalo ofeiletai
stnv e3eli3n tns glwssas n opoia eivai suvexns kai me diaforetiko
ru9mo meta3u le3ewv, evvoiwv, kai pln9usmwv. Kai me tis terasties
metaboles stnv profora ekei gurw sta duo xiliades xrovia priv,
epomevo ntav va mperdeutouv ta pragmata. Etsi ta katalabaivw egw
gevika. Esu pou piaveis kai ta eidika, ri3e mas va to fxaristn9oume :-)
>Alla' akoma kai ta kara-klasika arxaia tou 5-4ou aiwna, oute auta einai
>idiaiterws omala. H polutupia kai h anarxia einai, mallon, idion ths
>glwssas apo palia.
Idiov olwv twv glwsswv 9a elega, xwris va exw sugkekrimeva stoixeia.
>O Kontos, o neoattikisths tou prohgoumenou aiwna, kapote katanalwse
>200 selides gia na apodeiksei poios apo tous duo tupous tou paratatikou
>tou rhmatos didwmi (edidwn h' edidoun), einai o klasikos kai o attikos
>-dioti paradidontai kai oi duo. Kai polu orqa parathrhse o Ro.idhs oti
>ama einai na xreiazontai 200 selides gia enan koino tupo enos apo ta=
> koinotera
> (isws to koinotero) rhma ths glwssas, tote zhtw pou kahkame.
Mia paratnrnsn: eivai geviko faivomevo n kavovikotnta va eivai avtistrofws
avalogn tns suxvotntas xrnsns. Dnladn gia tous pio koivous tupous suvavtwvtai
oi pio avwmales kliseis kai diaforopoinseis. P.x. se oles tis glwsses gia
tis opoies exw akousta to pio suxvo rnma (to 'eivai' pou eivai kai bon9ntiko)
exei pavtelws idiomorfn klisn. Pi9avologeitai oti o logos eivai oti otav
mia le3n de xrnsimopoieitai polu au3avetai n pi9avotnta va parei timn
'default' stnv klisn tns evw avti9eta n suvexns xrnsn suvtnrei tis idiomorfies.
M'alla logia to oti eva apo ta koivotera rnmata eivai ki eva apo ta pio
"perierga" dev eivai ka9olou para3evo!
0avasns
-allou-
>ns
>(Siga-siga, bebaia, mporei na eksomalunqei h grammatikh, kai epistrefontas
>ston Omhro na leme kai "safa" anti gia to neotero kai xudaio "safws" :-))
xudaios eisai kai faivesai :-) safws.
Nikos Sarantakos
At 09:23 ìì 01/06/98 +0300, Dionyshs Papadopoulos wrote:
>2)otan lew domh to ekshghsa.Na sou to pw ksana?Oi kanones pou diepoun
>thn
>grammatikh mias glwssas p.x. pws prokyptoun synthetoi oroi,pws prokyptei
>o enas oros apo ton allo,o tropos grafhs klp.Esy yposthrizeis oti einai
>aneksarthta ta parapanw apo thn grafh mias glwssas.Tha htan idia h
>mathimatikh domh ths ellhnikhs an oi arxaioi eixan dialeksei
>ideogrammata
>anti tou alfabhtou pou exoume?
Malista -ara h grafh, to alfabhto kaqorizei th domh mias glwssas?
Ara, ta mhkuna.ika ellhnika (ths grammikhs B') einai glwssa
diaforetikh sth domh ths ap' o,ti ta klasika ellhnika?
(kai milame, ennoeitai, gia epoxes opou o kosmos
kata terastio pososto den egnwrize grafh).
Thn epomenh anakalupsh sas po'te qa thn anakoinwsete,
na mhn th xasoume?
ns
Panayiotis Giannikos
In a message dated 01/06/98 11:23:38 GMT, you write:
<< Mia paratnrnsn: eivai geviko faivomevo n kavovikotnta va eivai avtistrofws
avalogn tns suxvotntas xrnsns. Dnladn gia tous pio koivous tupous
suvavtwvtai
oi pio avwmales kliseis kai diaforopoinseis. P.x. se oles tis glwsses gia
tis opoies exw akousta to pio suxvo rnma (to 'eivai' pou eivai kai bon9ntiko)
exei pavtelws idiomorfn klisn. Pi9avologeitai oti o logos eivai oti otav
mia le3n de xrnsimopoieitai polu au3avetai n pi9avotnta va parei timn
'default' stnv klisn tns evw avti9eta n suvexns xrnsn suvtnrei tis
idiomorfies.
M'alla logia to oti eva apo ta koivotera rnmata eivai ki eva apo ta pio
"perierga" dev eivai ka9olou para3evo!
>>
Swsto.
Filika,
Panagiwths.
Lida Anestidou
pantws, feidia, gia na pw to makru mou kai gw, o Mpampiniwths egine
gnwstos ana to panellhnio kata th diarkeia ths ekpomphs ths kanellh
"omileite ellhnika".
ws ta tote, den htan gnwstos sto lao, alla to pio shmantiko, den exaire
ths ektimhshs twn neoellhnistwn sunadelfwn tou, kai auto de nomizw pws
alla3e kai poly. o Marwniths (ton opoio sixainomai ws an8rwpo) eixe,
exei kai 8a exei safws artioterh apopsh peri newn ellhnikwn kai glwssas
apo to Mpampiniwth, o opoios katanalwnetai ta teleutaia xronia me ar8ar
kai loipa dhmosiou biou peristatika.
Gia na mh prostre3w kai sth politikh topo8ethsh ekastou, bebaia, h opoia
kai safws xrwmatizei thn optikh tous gwnia (aristeros o marwniths,
de3ios o allos).
as mhn upeiser8oume twra sto poia gwnia einai kaluterh >:>
to arxoidiabolaki >:>
Nikos Sarantakos
At 04:00 ìì 01/06/98 -0700, Athanassios Protopapas wrote:
>
>Mia paratnrnsn: eivai geviko faivomevo n kavovikotnta va eivai avtistrofws
>avalogn tns suxvotntas xrnsns. Dnladn gia tous pio koivous tupous
suvavtwvtai
>oi pio avwmales kliseis kai diaforopoinseis. P.x. se oles tis glwsses gia
>tis opoies exw akousta to pio suxvo rnma (to 'eivai' pou eivai kai bon9ntiko)
>exei pavtelws idiomorfn klisn. Pi9avologeitai oti o logos eivai oti otav
>mia le3n de xrnsimopoieitai polu au3avetai n pi9avotnta va parei timn
>'default' stnv klisn tns evw avti9eta n suvexns xrnsn suvtnrei tis
idiomorfies.
>M'alla logia to oti eva apo ta koivotera rnmata eivai ki eva apo ta pio
>"perierga" dev eivai ka9olou para3evo!
>
>-allou-
Nai kai oxi, Qanash, an kai kat' arxhn exeis dikio. Qelw na pw oti, fusika se
enan poluxrhsto lektiko tupo einai epomeno statistika na paradidontai polu
perissoteroi
apoklinontes tupoi, s' auto exeis dikio. Qa perimene omws kaneis na
anadeiknuetai
apo th statistikh analush tou deigmatos *enas* epikratesteros tupos, pou na
sugkentrwnei, leme twra, to 80% twn emfanisewn, kai oi loipes dhmokratikes
dunameis na exoun to upoloipo 20%, oxi na einai duo tupoi pou na exoun apo
49% ekastos.
>
>>ns
>>(Siga-siga, bebaia, mporei na eksomalunqei h grammatikh, kai epistrefontas
>>ston Omhro na leme kai "safa" anti gia to neotero kai xudaio "safws" :-))
>
>xudaios eisai kai faivesai :-) safws.
Kamia fora, briskei kaneis sta arxaia polu endiaferouses periptwseis. Gia to
qhluko tou "o tamias" to opoio sunhqws legetai "h tamias" eixa pei (se allh
lista) oti o tupos "h tamias" einai teratwdhs kata th gnwmh mou kai oti to
swsto gia mena einai "h tamia" dioti sun tois allois "h tamias" exei buzakia
kai den mporei na sugxeetai me to "o tamias" pou exei moustakia.
Fusika, oi sun-listobioi me eixan kraksei, kai mou eipan oti auta pou
lew einai airetika kai malliara.
Briskw loipon, oti sta arxaia uphrxe to qhluko tou tamias, kai fusika
uphrxe ws "h tamia" (ston Omhro, alla' kai argotera, p.x. ston Ksenofwnta),
kai xairomai xaran megalhn!
nikos
Athanassios Protopapas
Feidia pas va baleis fwties pali :-)
> Dev 3erw peri poias "artiotntas" milame edw, 8umamai pavtws pou ta
>peri "avwterwv" kai "katwterwv" glwsswv ntav kapote eva 8ema gia to
>opoio sfazovtav o Mpampiviwtns me tov Marwvitn. Tote loipov o
>Marwvitns fwvaze oti dev uparxouv avwteres kai katwteres glwsses kai
>katakerauvwve tov Mpampiviwtn ws "e8vikistn". Me tov Mpampiviwtn
>va apavta, xovdrika, oti allo "avwtern-katwtern" ki allo to va
>paragvwrizoume tnv avaptu3n kai e3eli3n mias glwssas pou exei mia
>poluaiwvn kalliergeia (o Elutns sto logo tou stnv apovomn tou Nobel,
>eipe xaraktnristika oti 3000 xrovia twra dev uparxei aiwvas pou va mnv
>graftnke poinsn stnv Ellnvikn glwssa) kai va leme oti ola eivai isa
>ki omoia (idia n Ellnvikn, idia n glwssa twv Zoulou). (Auta givovtav
>palia bebaia. Meta evefavis8nsav oi ka8aroaimoi Pelasgoi pou leei ki o
>40kos, oi opoioi ekplnktoi avefwvnsav: Akou e8vikistns o Mpampiviwtns,
>kai oi duo idioi foivikistes eivai! Etsi o Mpampiviwtns avoi3e alla
>metwpa...)
Fusika kai dev uparxouv avwteres kai katwteres glwsses. Kai fusika
uparxouv glwsses stis opoies exei avaptux9ei kai kalliergn9ei n logotexvia
kai n poinsn edw kai xiliades xrovia (p.x., ellnvika, kivezika) kai alles
stis opoies dev exei akoma efarmostei kav tropos grafns (kamposes s'olov tov
kosmo). Apo pou ki ws pou oi duo autes protaseis avtifaskouv as mas to
e3ngnsouv oi kk Marwvitns kai Mpampiviwtns. Bebaia av evas apo tous duo
9elei va kataln3ei oti "pws va to kavoume allo ta ellnvika ki allo ta zoulou,
oxi va mas pndn3ouv ki oi guftoi/arapndes/kitrivoi/prasivoi/mple twra"
e, to skalizei ligo alliws to pragma. Kai evw sugkrivei pln9os n' akoma
kai avaptu3n logotexvias leei oti sugkrivei glwsses. Kai grafouv oi dnmosio-
grafoi (ekeivoi pou sas legave kai gia to govidio tns omofulofilias, 9umasai;)
gia va givetai kai mpougio va poulame fulla, kai diabazei o Feidias :-).
Auto givetai dioti oi epistnmoves eivai suxva avikavoi va diaxwrisouv tnv
politikn kai koivwvikn tous topo9etnsn apo tnv epistnmovikn ereuva. (Nai, pali)
Exei malliasei n glwssa mou pia.
0avasns
-allou-
Phidias Bourlas
> H glwssa mas dev exei kammia "artiotnta" o opoia va leipei apo tis glwsses
> p.x. twv i9agevwv tns Australias, oute kai apektnse opoia artiotnta eixe otav
> efeure9nke n grafn, n' (polu argotera) to alfabnto.
Dev 3erw peri poias "artiotntas" milame edw, 8umamai pavtws pou ta
peri "avwterwv" kai "katwterwv" glwsswv ntav kapote eva 8ema gia to
opoio sfazovtav o Mpampiviwtns me tov Marwvitn. Tote loipov o
Marwvitns fwvaze oti dev uparxouv avwteres kai katwteres glwsses kai
katakerauvwve tov Mpampiviwtn ws "e8vikistn". Me tov Mpampiviwtn
va apavta, xovdrika, oti allo "avwtern-katwtern" ki allo to va
paragvwrizoume tnv avaptu3n kai e3eli3n mias glwssas pou exei mia
poluaiwvn kalliergeia (o Elutns sto logo tou stnv apovomn tou Nobel,
eipe xaraktnristika oti 3000 xrovia twra dev uparxei aiwvas pou va mnv
graftnke poinsn stnv Ellnvikn glwssa) kai va leme oti ola eivai isa
ki omoia (idia n Ellnvikn, idia n glwssa twv Zoulou). (Auta givovtav
palia bebaia. Meta evefavis8nsav oi ka8aroaimoi Pelasgoi pou leei ki o
40kos, oi opoioi ekplnktoi avefwvnsav: Akou e8vikistns o Mpampiviwtns,
kai oi duo idioi foivikistes eivai! Etsi o Mpampiviwtns avoi3e alla
metwpa...)
Loipov, Niko, pare kai mia sullogn rnsewv diasnmwv avdrwv (kai
guvaikwv) gia tnv Ellnvika Glwssa. (Me polla apo auta 8a fri3eis, eimai
bebaios, gi' auto allwste ta stelvw! :-) )
F.M.
---
"Mnpws eimaste swbivistes;"
(Tou Giavvn Paulakn, filologou, proedrou tou ODEG Peiraiws.
Avadnmosieusn apo tnv efnm. " H Glwssa mas" tou Omilou Peiraiws
gia tnv diadosn tns Ellnvikns Glwssas.):
"
Merikoi kalo8elntes katngorouv ka8e epaivetn tns Elladas
ws dn8ev swbivistn. [...] Kaloume loipov edw, oxi Ellnves,
alla epifaveis 3evous va tekmnriwsouv me to logo tous tnv
a3ia, tnv aktivobolia, tnv a8avasia tns Ellnvikns glwssas.
Deigmatolnptika:
Kikerwv (o evdo3oteros rntwr tns arxaias Rwmns):
"Ei oi 8eoi dialegovtai, tn twv Ellnvwv glwttn xrwvtai."
Huan Azio (Baskos gerousiastns):
"Dia tnv die8vopoinsiv tns Ellnvikns glwssns megalnv exomev
eu8uvnv, ws ouk ousav allnv glwssav autns avwterav."
Errieta Valter (Gallida glwssologos):
"H Ellnvikn glwssa eivai n movn stnv Eurwpn pou dev upekuye
se kamia katoxn."
Wandruska (ka8. glwssologias Pavep. Bievvns):
"Oi eurwpaikes glwsses faivovtai ws dialektoi tns Ellnvikns."
Sagredo kai Puhana (Baskoi ellnvistes):
"H ellnvikn glwssa kai paideia apotelousi to 8emeliov tou
Dutikou politismou. Pavtes de Eurwpaioi ofeiletai tns Ellados
esmev."
M. Ventris (Agglos epistnmwv pou apokruptografnse tn Grammikn
grafn B'):
"H arxaia Ellnvikn glwssa nto kai eivai n avwtera olwv twv
palaioterwv kai vewterwv glwsswv."
U. Wilamowitz (o megistos twv filologwv, Germavos):
"H Ellnvikn fuln, avwtera ka8e allns, eivai kai mntera ka8e
politismou."
Boltairos (megalos Gallos diavontns):
"Ei8e n Ellnvikn glwssa va givei koivn olwv twv lawv."
Var. Goeger (Germavos sofos):
"O Eurwpaikos politismos 3ekiva apo tnv Ellada."
Goethe (o korufaios Germavos pointns):
"H Ellada eivai o vous kai n kardia tns oikoumevns."
Akadnmia Epistnmwv tns ESSD, "Pagkosmia Istoria":
"Xwris ta 8emelia pou e8esav oi Ellnves dev 8a upnrxe o
vewteros eurwpaikos politismos. H ellnvikn logotexvia eivai
n arxaiotern tns Eurwpns."
Hellen Keler (n diasnmn tufln Amerikavida suggrafeas):
"Opws to bioli eivai to teleiotero mousiko orgavo, etsi kai
n Ellnvikn glwssa."
H.F. Kitto (Agglos ka8. Pavepistnmiou):
"Oloi oi kladoi tns logotexvias kai tns epistnmns arxizouv
me tous Ellnves. H Ellnvikn glwssa eivai n pio ka8arn kai n pio
plousia stov kosmo."
Irina Kovaleva (Rwssida ka8ngntria Pavep. Mosxas):
"H Ellnvikn glwssa eivai omorfn sav tov ouravo me t' astra."
Maurice Kruaze (Gallos Akadnmaikos):
"Oi av8rwpoi 8a avatrexouv pavta stis pnges tns ellnvikns
klassikns arxaiotntas gia va drosistouv."
Furtvengler (ka8. Pavep. Bievvns):
"H Rwmn sta8nke mia aiwvia poln, alla n A8nva eivai kosmos
oloklnros."
Marianne McDonald (ka8. Pavep. Kaliforvias-HPA)
"H gvwsn tns ellnvikns glwssas eivai aparaitnto 8emelio uynlns
politistikns kalliergeias."
Karl Marx ( 0 8emeliwtns tou Mar3ismou):
"Oi a3ies tou Ellnvikou Politismou paramevouv af8asta protupa."
Bernard Saw (o megalos Irlavdos suggrafeas):
"Av stnv biblio8nkn sas dev exete erga twv arxaiwv Ellnvwv
suggrafewv, tote mevete s' eva spiti xwris fws."
Will Durant (Amerikavos istorikos):
"To alfabnto mas pronl8ev e3 Ellados dia tns Kumns kai tns
Rwssias."
Ustera loipov apo auta ta tekmnria, ti lete, eimaste swbivistes;
"
---
As pros8esoume omws kai merikes akoma rnseis gia tnv Ellnvikn
glwssa.
Martin Heideger (megalos filosofos):
"Gia tous Ellnves n uyistn proika tous eivai n glwssa tous, stnv
opoia n parousia (filosof. oros) ws toiautn f8avei stnv ekkaluyn kai
stnv kaluyn. Opoios dev mporei va dn tnv dwrea evos tetoiou dwrou
pros tov av8rwpo kai opoios dev mporei v' avtilnf8n tov proorismo
evos tetoiou peprwmevou, ka8olou dev 8' avtilnf8n tov logo peri tou
proorismou tou eivai, opws o fusikos tuflos dev mporei v' avtilnf8n
ti eivai to fws kai to xrwma." ("Eisagwgn stn Metafusikn".)
To biblio tou, "Eivai kai xrovos", 3ekiva me to xwrio tou
Platwvos: "Dnlov gar ws umeis mev tauta palai gigvwskete, nmeis de
pro tou mev wome8a, vuv npornkamev."
Allou: "Ta arxaia Ellnvika dev eivai mia glwssa, alla "H Glwssa"."
Werner Heisenberg (megalos Germavos fusikoma8nmatikos-filosofos):
"H 8nteia mou stnv Ellnvikn glwssa upnr3e n spoudaiotern
pveumatikn mou asknsis. Stnv glwssa autnv uparxei n plnrestern
avtistoixia meta3u tns le3ews kai tou evvoiologikou tns
periexomevou."
Marriane McDonald (n prwtergatns tou TLG):
"H Glwssa tns Eleu8erias, o Evdo3os 8nsauros tns Ellados, n Do3a
tns Ellados, avnkei se olous mas kai exei diamorfwsei tnv epistnmovikn
kai logotexvikn klnrovomia tou Dutikou Kosmou. [...] H istoria tns
Ellnvikns glwssas apotelei tnv istoria tns filosofikns kai politistikns
e3eli3ns tou av8rwpou tns Dusns. Apo ola ta av8rwpiva dnmiourgnmata, n
Ellnvikn glwssa eivai to kataplnktikotero. H gvwsn tns Ellnvikns glwssas,
tns zwns kai twv sxesewv stis opoies oi Ellnves e3efrasav tn skeyn tous
kai ta ais8nmata tous, eivai ousiastika avtiproswpeutika stoixeia gia
evav uynlo politismo. Dev uparxei pio omorfn glwssa apo tnv Ellnvikn.
Exei diatnrnsei tnv omorfia tns mesa stous aiwves, oxi movo me tn morfn
kai tous nxous tns, alla kai me tis n8ikes idees pou ekfrazei. [...]
Oi Ellnves mas edwsav to xruso metro kai tn xrusn tous glwssa. [...] H
Ellnvikn glwssa prepei va diaiwvistei ws polutimos kai wraios 8nsauros.
[...] Prepei va 3ekivnsoume mia vea stauroforia gia tnv uperaspisn tns
Ellnvikns glwssas kai tnv diatnrnsn tns istorikns mvnmns tou parel8ovtos.
H Ellnvikn glwssa eivai eva gero ktisma oso o Par8evwvas. [...] As
ergastoume oloi mazi gia va lampruvoume to 8nsauro tns Ellnvikns Glwssas
kai va tov kavoume ktnma prosito se olov tov kosmo."
G. Murray (ka8. tns Ellnvikns sto Pavep. O3fordns):
"H Ellnvikn eivai n teleiotern glwssa. Suxva diapistwvei kaveis
oti mia skeyn mporei va diatupw8ei me avesn kai xarn stnv Ellnvikn,
evw givetai duskoln kai bareia stnv Lativikn, Agglikn, Gallikn n'
Germavikn. Eivai n teleiotern glwssa epeidn ekfrazei tis skeyeis
twv teleioterwv av8rwpwv."
T.L. Heath (Bretavos ma8nmatikos):
"H Ellnvikn glwssa prosferotav kata e3airetiko tropo ws oxnma
tns epistnmovikns skeyews. Eva apo ta kuria xaraktnristika tns glwssas
tou Eukleidn eivai n 8aumastn akribeia. H glwssa twv Ellnvwv eivai
episns 8aumasiws periektikn. Stov Arximndn, stov Hrwva, stov Ptolemaio
kai stov Pappo 8a broume pragmatika protupa periektikwv dnlwsewv."
("Mathematics and Astronomy".)
Huan Puhana Arza (Baskos ellnvistns):
"H tns Ellnvikns glwssns safnveia, n teleiotns, n elasimotns
kai ploutos tosoutoi eisiv n' pasas allas glwssas uperisxuke kai
ikavn tou dnmiourgeiv kai avaptusseiv tosoutov politismov n' pasai
allai nttoves eisiv, all' afeiletai autns." (Ta Ellnvika eivai tou
idiou.)
M. Ventris:
"H arxaia Ellnvikn glwssa eixe avwterotnta kai e3akolou8ei va exei
apevavti se oles tis vewteres glwsses kai, giati oxi, apevavti se
oles tis lativikes, germavikes n' slabikes. Auto to ergaleio eivai
to teleiotero pveumatiko ergaleio pou sfurnlatnse pote n av8rwpivn
vonsis." ("Documents in Mycenean Greek".)
Jean Bouffartigue kai Anne-Marie Delrieu (Galloi le3ikografoi):
"Makrivn pngn tou politismou mas n Ellada, brisketai zwvtavn mesa
stis le3eis pou leme. Sxnmatizei ka8e mera tn glwssa mas.
Oi baseis kai o e3oplismos tou epistnmovikou le3ilogiou nr8av apo
tnv Ellada, akoma kai stnv arxaiotnta. Ta daveia omws e3akolou8nsav,
kai oxi movo apo suvn8eia. Suvexisav, dioti n Ellnvikn glwssa
prosferetai me a3i8aumasto tropo, polu perissotero apo o,ti n
Lativikn, gia tnv dnmiourgia twv le3ewv avaloga me tis avagkes.
H Ellnvikn glwssa dev pareixe pia arketes le3eis gia tov
au3avomevo ari8mo vewv evvoiwv. Parousiastnke tote n idea va
xrnsimopoin8ouv oi me8odoi pou efarmozav oi Ellnves gia va au3avouv
to le3ilogio tous. H domn tns glwssas tous tous epetrepe va suv8etouv
le3eis m' evav tropo aplo kai apotelesmatiko. Tous mimn8nkav...
kataskeuasav mia vea le3n, tnv opoia metetreyav stn glwssa tous
(gallika, agglika, germavika, italika). H mimnsn tis pio polles fores
eivai petuxnmevn, dioti oi kataskeuastes Ellnvikwv le3ewv eivai
e3airetoi ellnvistes."
("Tresors des Racines Greques", 1981.)
H.F. Kitto (Bretavos ka8. Pavepistnmiou Bristol):
"Eivai stnv fusn tns Ellnvikns glwssas va eivai akribns, ka8arn
kai safns. H asafeia kai n elleiyn amesns evorasews, pou xaraktnrizei
merikes fores ta Agglika, ka8ws kai ta Germavika, eivai evtelws 3eves
stnv Ellnvikn glwssa. Mazi me autn tn safnveia kai tn dnmiourgikotnta
kai tn sobarotnta, briskoume episns euais8nsia kai ayogn komyotnta."
Albert Zursen:
"Dev mporei kaveis v' avafer8n sta ellnvika grammata, xwris
va avafern oti kai n idia n glwssa, mia apo tis wraioteres ap'
oses milnsav pote oi av8rwpoi, e3akolou8ei va zn kai snmera
stnv epistnmovikn orologia tns epoxns mas, parexovtas mas miav
asteireutn pngn vewv orwv." ("L' Histoire: Les hommes, les
civilisations depuis les origines".")
W. Thompson (ka8. Fusikns Istorias sto Pavep. St. Andrews):
"Uparxouv av8rwpoi pou leve oti ta Ellnvika dev xreiazovtai.
Pragmati, uparxouv av8rwpoi gia tous opoious ta Ellnvika dev
8a mporousav va kavouv tipota. Uparxouv omws kai 8a e3akolou8nsouv
va uparxouv polloi alloi, pou stnv Ellnvikn sofia kai stnv glukeia
Ellnvikn glwssa avakaluptouv kati pou to exouv avagkn kai pou
xwris auto 8a eviw8av st' aln8eia ftwxoi: kati pou eivai sav rabdi
sto xeri, fws sto movopati, faros-odngos... Kai otav kapoios tous
rwtnsei gia poio logo asxolouvtai me tnv Ellnvikn glwssa, to
pi8avotero eivai oti 8a meivouv afwvoi mprosta stnv teratwdn ubri
tns erwtnsews kai o logos tns afosiwsews tous 8a meivn gia pavta
krummevos apo tov erwtwvta." (Sto "The Legacy of Greece".)
Gibbon (megalos Bretavos istorikos):
"Oi Buzavtivoi e3akolou8ousav va katexouv to xruso kleidi pou
mporouse va 3ekleidwvn tous 8nsaurous tns arxaiotntos: tnv mousikn
kai plousia Ellnvikn glwssa pou divei yuxn sta avtikeimeva twv
ais8nsewv kai swma stis afnrnmeves evvoies tns filosofias."
Shelley:
"H glwssa twv Ellnvwv, se poikilia, aplotnta, eulugisia kai
pistotnta 3eperva ka8e alln." ("On the manners of the ancients".)
Goethe:
"Akousa stov Agio Petro tns Rwmns to Euaggelio se oles tis
glwsses. H Ellnvikn 3exwrise, astro lampero mesa stn vuxta."
Nikos Sarantakos
At 07:41 ðì 01/06/98 GMT, var...@fluid.mech.ntua.gr wrote:
>In article <3.0.1.32.1998052...@l.pop.uunet.lu>,
>Sxoliazontas (sta ellhnika) thn ekdosh ths "Grammatikhs" se teyxh o Professor
>McRidge (Elpizw na to egrapsa swsta kai na mh moy balei kako
>ba0mo o K. Sarantakos) arxizei to ar0ro toy ws e}hs : (apo mnhmhs)
>
>H Grammatikh ths N. Ellhnikhs glwssas twn Klairh-Mpampiniwth,
>apotelei monadiko fainomeno pagkosmiws, ekdosews grammatikhs glwssas,
>se teyxh ... (Ta gelia dika sas).
>
>Epi ths oysias twra, h pio geloia (kai ypopth gia osoys katalabainoyn)
>0esh toy Mpampinwth einai oti ta oysiastika, opws "my0ologia",
>"botanologia", "entomologia", "FILOLOGIA", DEN einai syn0etes le}eis !!!!!
>
>alla, ena 0ema : my0os, botano, entomo kai ena PSEYDEPI0HMA (oros
>Mpampinwth) to LOGOS !!!!! (Mh gelate akoma).
>
>Kai toy apanta o Mc Ridge : Enta}ei, as poyme oti einai etsi ...
>
>my0ologia=logos peri my0oy, botanologia=logos peri botanwn,
>
>FILOLOGIA TI EINAI ;;;;; LOGOS PERI FILIAS ;;;; H' FILOS TOY LOGOY ;;;
Etoimazomoun na sxoliasw auto pou egrapse o k. Barwnos,
epishmainontas oti to filologia/filologos einai kata thn tapeinh mou
gnwmh diaforetikh -kai mono epifaneiaka omoia-
periptwsh apo to mhxanologia/mhxanologos, entomologia/-ogos
kai ta sunafh, kai opwsdhpote einai zhthma endiaferon, otan eida
to ekshs pou ksanaparaqetw:
>Epi ths oysias twra, h pio geloia (kai ypopth gia osoys katalabainoyn)
>0esh toy Mpampinwth einai oti ta oysiastika, opws "my0ologia",
>"botanologia", "entomologia", "FILOLOGIA", DEN einai syn0etes le}eis !!!!!
H qesh tou Mp. mporei na einai geloia h' sobarh, swsth h' lanqasmenh,
anedafikh h' basimh. Auto pou eilikrina den katalabainw, einai
giati, nte kai kala', einai (kata Barwnon) **upopth**.
Kai, upopth tinos?
Kai epeidh me enoxlei na petaei kaneis bareies koubentes, as
dieukrinisei parakalw o kurios Barwnos, afou tekmhriwsei
ta legomena tou, an o xarakthrismos "upopth" einai dikos tou
h' an einai kai autos diatupwsh tou Makritz (pragma pou
duskoleuomai na pistepsw, oti enas sobaros episthmonas xrhsimopoiei
orologia pou tairiazei mono se barwnous kai astunomikous).
ns
Nikos Sarantakos
At 03:00 ìì 01/06/98 -0700, Athanassios Protopapas wrote:
>
>H apavtnsn sta parapavw eivai pragmati profavns se osous e3etazouv tnv
>erwtnsn alla esu 3ekivas va peiseis tov eauto sou gia tnv avwterotnta sou
>kai bastiesai ap'o,ti blepeis va e3exei. Omws merikes mauriles eivai
>kourades kai glistrave kai de se blepw va piavesai kala.
>
>Akou leei n artiotnta tns glwssas mas.... Exeis idea ti mpaxalo epikratei stn
>morfologia tns Neas Ellnvikns logw tns avami3ns arxaiwv klisewv me tis
sugxroves
>aplopoinseis; Oxi bebaia. Bres kapoiov pou didaskei vea ellnvika se 3evous
>kai rwta. H bres kaveva 3evo pou ma9aivei ellnvika kai paratnrnse ta la9n
pou
>(fusiologika) kavei, kai e3ngnse tou GIATI eivai la9n otav akolou9ei plnrws
>tous kavoves klisns pou ema9e sto biblio tns grammatikns tou.
>
>0avasns
>-allou-
Qanash, kala ta les (se osa esbhsa) ston polutexnith moutzaxentin
kai sumfwnw apoluta mazi sou me mia mono parathrhsh.
To mpaxalo ths neas ellhnikhs se megalo baqmo uphrxe kai
sthn arxaia. Dioti, bebaia, oi aplopoihseis einai polu palio pragma
(arxisan apo pro xristou) kai h anamiksh to idio.
Alla' akoma kai ta kara-klasika arxaia tou 5-4ou aiwna, oute auta einai
idiaiterws omala. H polutupia kai h anarxia einai, mallon, idion ths
glwssas apo palia.
O Kontos, o neoattikisths tou prohgoumenou aiwna, kapote katanalwse
200 selides gia na apodeiksei poios apo tous duo tupous tou paratatikou
tou rhmatos didwmi (edidwn h' edidoun), einai o klasikos kai o attikos
-dioti paradidontai kai oi duo. Kai polu orqa parathrhse o Ro.idhs oti
ama einai na xreiazontai 200 selides gia enan koino tupo enos apo ta koinotera
(isws to koinotero) rhma ths glwssas, tote zhtw pou kahkame.
Fusika, twra h sunuparksh arxaioklitwn me dhmotikous tupous
periplekei ta pragmata gia opoion
eixe thn atuxia na mh gennhqei ellhnas, alla kai epi kaqareuoushs
uphrxan allou eidous duskolies, p.x. sto an qa akolouqhqei o
tupos ths aplhs h' ths arxa.izousas kaqareuousas ktl. Pote' den
htan to problhma lumeno.
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
Epeidh yparxoun kapoia problhmata (mallon ston listserver) kai pernw
mono merika apo ta mynhmata pou stelnontai sth lista parakalw opoios
stelnei kati se ayth th thread na mou to stelnei kai proswpika
Epishs an ginetai na mou steilete kai proswpika oti mynhmata steilate
se ayth th thread tis teleytaies 4-5 meres (apo tote peripou arxise to
problhma)
Eyxaristw
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
Nikos Sarantakos
At 07:46 ìì 02/06/98 +0300, Phidias Bourlas wrote:
>Niko,
>kataggelw sth lista oti paraplavas tous suvlistobious! :-)
>O Omnros dev elege "safa'" alla "sa'fa"
>(me tov tovo stnv paralngousa)!
>Episns "ta'xa" avti "taxe'ws".
>(To ta'xa to leme ki emeis, me alln evvoia!)
>
> F.M.
>
>> ns
>> (Siga-siga, bebaia, mporei na eksomalunqei h grammatikh, kai epistrefontas
>> ston Omhro na leme kai "safa" anti gia to neotero kai xudaio "safws" :-))
Fusika kai paraplanw, giauto kai apefuga epimelws na balw tono sto "safa" :-)
O Omhros elege epishs "oneirata" (parallhlos tupos oneirar)
Alla kai to magkiko "proswpata" (anti tou "proswpa") einai arxaio,
isws omhriko, den qumamai.
O Omhros epishs pareleipe tis aukshseis opou ton boleuan, alla'
kai polloi metagenesteroi to idio ekanan. Kai to Euaggelio, allwste,
exei "oikodomhsen" kai oxi "wkodomhsen" me xronikh aukshsh.
Genika, h dhmotikh arxizei polu nwris...
ns
YG
Kai prepei na brw kai ekeino to apospasma tou Papadiamanth
pou leei "ap' anekaqen". O Omhros, bebaia, exei kai "ap' ouranoQEN"
kai "apo Troihqen"
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
Molis twra diapistwsa oti o kyrios sarantakos meta apo thn profash
"taksidiou" gia na lhksei h koybenta sthn lista tou american.edu
metefere thn koybenta sth lista HEl...@lists.psu.edu
sthn opoia den eimai syndromhths, apantwntas mou ekei!!!
Etsi arxise koybenta gia emena ,xwris emena, kai xwris oi
ypoloipoi sthn psu.edu na kseroun ti lew egw.To anakalypsa
meta apo mynhma-apanthsh pou esteile kapoios ektos apo thn psu.edu
kai se emena pou eide to onoma mou na anaferetai ekei xwris na
yparxei epistolh dikia mou!!!!
Twra kyrie sarantako apokalyfthikate plhrws.Blepw oti ekana
lathos me to na pisteyw oti mporeite na koybentiasete sobara
kai politismena .
Tha graftw twra kai sthn psu.edu (parakalw kapoios na me eidopoihsei
an ksanametafei o sarantakos h o opoiosdhpote allos thn koybenta se
allh lista)
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
Telika ekana lathos kai zhtw syggnwmh.Einai h idia lista.Ta mynhymata
omws pou stelnotan sth lista den erxotan se emena giati hmouna grammenos
ston listserver tou american.edu.O listserver tou american.edu,opws mou
eipe kai o kyrios nikos gewrgiou(ypeythynos tou listserver sto psu.edu)
eixe polla problhmata tis teleytaies meres logw diaforwn anabathmisewn
kai giayto "exane" polla mhnymata.
Twra grafthka ston listserver tou psu.edu kai pernw ta mhnymata
ths "Hellas list" kanonika.
Sto metaksy exw xasei epeisodia afou gia 5-6 meres elaxista mynhmata
eftanan se emena(kai to dejanews exei xasei kapoia arthra).Tha kyttaksw
ta logs ths listas kai tha epanelthw
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
Panayiotis Giannikos
In a message dated 02/06/98 02:19:05 GMT, you write:
<< Kamia fora, briskei kaneis sta arxaia polu endiaferouses periptwseis. Gia
to
qhluko tou "o tamias" to opoio sunhqws legetai "h tamias" eixa pei (se allh
lista) oti o tupos "h tamias" einai teratwdhs kata th gnwmh mou kai oti to
swsto gia mena einai "h tamia" dioti sun tois allois "h tamias" exei buzakia
kai den mporei na sugxeetai me to "o tamias" pou exei moustakia.
Fusika, oi sun-listobioi me eixan kraksei, kai mou eipan oti auta pou
lew einai airetika kai malliara.
Briskw loipon, oti sta arxaia uphrxe to qhluko tou tamias, kai fusika
uphrxe ws "h tamia" (ston Omhro, alla' kai argotera, p.x. ston Ksenofwnta),
kai xairomai xaran megalhn!
nikos
>>
O tamias - h tamia.
Kata Sarantako loipon,
O giatros - h giatrh, h giatra, h giatrina, h giatrissa, h giatressa.
O loxias - h loxia (h loxiaina - kata to uaina)
O upallhlos - h upallhlh
O katadikos - h katadikh
O kathgoros - h kathgorh
klp
Kai meta paraponiomas8e pou to augo sto e3hs mporei na grafetai kai abgo, to
auto kai san afto, to auti kai san afti, kai katanthse o kahmos tou Kazantzidh
na tragoudietai sth glwssa ths Eurovision...
Filika,
Panagiwths.
Homer Faidas
Nikos Sarantakos wrote:
> Loipon, h lista Hellas einai men mia kai adiaireth, alla' exei treis kombous,
> ton lists.psu.edu, ton american.edu kai ton uga, se isariqma amerikanika
> panepisthmia.
Nai alla o american ekporeuetai apo tov psu kai proporeuetai tou uga.Auto
dnmiourgei problnmata diavomns.
> Kapoia stigmh, ena upo-thread stalqhke apo
> kapoion ston psu.edu, kai kanonika qa eprepe na erqei kai se sena
> -an den hrqe, se diabebaiw oti den ofeiletai se dolia parembash mou :-)
>
Auto av 8eloume to pisteuoume. Eivai tois pasi gvwsto oti n klikamporei va
mplokarei muvnmata kata boulnsiv.
> Ksanalew, h lista einai mia -den einai duo epimerous listes me
> parallhla mhnumata.
Mia eivai n lista alla oi ekfavseis tns eivai treis.
>
>
> Oso gia to oti profasisthka taksidi, prokeimenou na metaferw thn
> koubenta se allh lista (pou h lista einai mia) auto htan ontws
> polu asteio.
Mporw edw va bebaiwsw oti pragmati o Kos 40kos pnge stnv ellada.Plnsiaze n 50stn
nmera tou Pasxa, kai eivai gvwsto oti o 8rnskolnptos kos 40kos
dev kavei kammia 8rnskeutikn eortn sta 3eva.
omnros
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
Para thn akousia apousia mou apo th lista gia merikes hmeres
blepw sta logs oti den exasa kai polla.
1)O feidias bourlas ta eipe mia xara ston sarantako kai ton prwtopappa
parathetontas ekatontades sxolia ksenwn, gia thn ellhnikh glwssa
kai to giati exei daneisei lekseis se polles ksenes glwsses.
2)oi parapanw kyrioi "poihsan thn nyssan" peri aytwn pou egrapse
o bourlas xwris na aisthanthoun thn anagkh kan na dikaiologhthoun.
Kyrie peite to kathara: "oloi aytoi oi ksenoi glwssologoi
kai genika panepisthmiakoi pou paineyoun thn ellhnikh glwssa kai thn
lene anwterh apo tis alles einai asxetoi,emeis oi sarantakos kai
prwtopappas eimaste oi yperepispisthmones.Aytoi pou lene gia artiothta
ths ellhnikhs glwssas einai plhrwmenoi apo ntopious ethnikistes
fasistes"
3)Oi kyrioi aytoi den aisthanthikan thn anagkh na apanthsoun
se ayta pou tous rwthsa 2 fores.Kyrioi thelete na ta rwthsw kai trith?
4) synexisan thn prosfilh tous methodo twn ybrewn ,profanws giati
etsi exoun mathei apo to spiti tous.Osoi lene ta parapanw einai
moutzaxentin, enw proodeytikes kai dhmokratikes einai oi symperifores
pou perigrafw parapanw.Thaymaste dhmokratiko dialogo (to apospasma
pou akolouthei einai apo thn epistolh tou kyriou prwtopappa pros
emena):
> H apavtnsn sta parapavw eivai pragmati profavns se osous e3etazouv tnv
> erwtnsn alla esu 3ekivas va peiseis tov eauto sou gia tnv avwterotnta sou
> kai bastiesai ap'o,ti blepeis va e3exei. Omws merikes mauriles eivai
> kourades kai glistrave kai de se blepw va piavesai kala"
Sygxarhthria
(Oloi oi anagnwstes ths listas mporoun na anatreksoun sta dika mou
mhnymata na doun an ta parapanw antistoixoun me to yfos me to opoio
egw apeythynthika se aytous)
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
Phidias Bourlas
glwssologias ovomati Xrnstidn va leei avonsies opws: "To katakriteo
stov Mpampiviwtn dev eivai oti ebale to lnmma "Boulgaros", alla to oti
xrovia twra kalliergei apoyeis glwssikou "ka8arismou" kai epevduei se
poikiles ekdoxes e8vikismou kai agovns ellnvolatreias" [!], mou avabouv
ta lampakia! :-)
Opote, parte eva kalo tou Mpampiviwtn peri glwssikou ka8arismou.
>
> to arxidiabolaki >:>
>
---
Grafei o G. Mpampiviwtns (kai to erwtnma pou prokuptei eivai, eav
oi Ellnves tou "mikrou plnv timiou" kratidiou tou 1830 mporesav va
avtista8ouv stnv "migadopoinsn" tns glwssas tous, dev mporoume emeis;):
"Ta epistrofika n avadromika kivnmata [Attikismos tns Ellnvistikns
kai Buzavtivns epoxns, mexri tnv apln ka8areuousa twv teleutaiwv
dekaetiwv] kataferav va epavasuvdesouv tis veoteres faseis tns
Ellnvikns me tis palaioteres, kata movadiko stnv istoria twv glwsswv
tropo (alln eivai n periptwsn tns Ebraikns, pou apotelei ki autn
movadiko paradeigma "avastasns" mias vekrns, mn omiloumevns glwssas,
tns arxaias Ebraikns tns P.D., kai ka8ierwsns tns ws episnmns sugxrovns
glwssas!). Apln avadromn sto Le3iko tou Stefavou Koumavoudn, stn
"Suvagwgn vewv le3ewv upo twv logiwv plas8eiswv apo tns Alwsews mexri
twv ka8' nmas xrovwv" (A8nva 1900), deixvei tov terastio ogko tou
le3ilogiou pou plastnke apo tous logious, eite apo autousies arxaies
le3eis n, kuriws, apo veoplastes le3eis pou akolou8ouv ta protupa twv
arxaiwv. Idou merikes veoplastes le3eis pou kavevas dev 8a mporouse
(para movov apo pragmatika stoixeia) va 3exwrisei av eivai arxaies n
veoteres:
dnmosiografos (1826)
dnmosiotns (1824)
epeigovtws (1829)
epetnris (1876)
epibaruvsis (1805)
epibibasis (1871)
kommatarxns (1853)
pleioynfia (1833)
plaisiwvw (1889)
dnlntnriazw (1876)
basizw/-omai (1854)
diapaidagwgnsis (1876)
efeteiov (1833)
la8remporiov (1809)
vekrotomeiov (1888)
e3ovtwsis (1766)
epifula3is (1859)
oloklnrwvw (1896)
stratwv (1833)
ta3ivomw (1873)
upvobatns (1840)
xeirokrotw (1856)
O idios malista o Koumavoudns eplase tis le3eis:
ekdnlwsis
eparxiakos
ex8rotns
Autos o "eswterikos daveismos" tns Ellnvikns apo le3eis avnkouses
stn makra glwssikn tns paradosn, upnr3e n pio ugins kai apotelesmatikn
avtimetwpisn evos meizovos kivduvou pou apeilnse tnv Ellnvikn glwssa
tous teleutaious aiwves tou 3evikou zugou. Prokeitai gia to pln8os twv
3evikwv le3ewv (tourkikwv kai bevetsiavikwv) pou eisxwrnsav - elleiyei
orgavwmevns paideias n allns morfwtikns avtistasews - sto swma tns
Ellnvikns kai prokalesav mia katastasn pou avagkase fwtismevous Ellnves
opws o Adamavtios Korans va avalabouv stauroforia "ka8arismou" tns
glwssas, prolabaivovtas tov kivduvo mias morfns migadopoinsns
(creolization) tns Ellnvikns. Apo to kivnma tou ka8arismou tou Koran
diamorfw8nke ba8mndov mia "glwssikn ideologia" pou apetelese
avastaltiko fragmo stnv eisboln twv 3evwv le3ewv, odngnse se eureia
upokatastasn twv 3evikwv me ellnvikes kai etoimase to edafos tns
avazntnsns vewv orwv kai le3ewv stnv parakata8nkn tns idias tns
Ellnvikns glwssas."
[O Adamavtios Korans egrafe tov perasmevo aiwva:
"Prwtov apotelesma kalov eivai o ka8armos tns glwssns apo allofulous
le3eis. Eis tiva dev eivai gvwstov oti eis pollous topous ovomazovtai
ta pragmata me le3eis italikas kai tourkikas; Oxi dioti leipei apo
tnv glwssav emfulios le3is, alla dioti dev gvwrizetai eis tov topov
ekeivov, opou ovomazetai to pragma me allofulov le3iv. Eivai evtropn
eis Graikov, ka8' upo8esiv Smurvaiov, va ovomazn tourkisti pragma pou o
plnsioxwros autou Xios ovomazei graikisti· eis tov Kerkuraiov italisti,
tou opoiou to graikov ovoma swzetai eis tnv geitova Pelopovvnsov. [...]
H apo tous 3evous daveisis n va to eipw ka8arwtera, ywmozntnsis
le3ewv kai frasewv, apo tas opoias gemousiv ai apo8nkai tns glwssns,
sima tns atimias, didei kai kai pavtelous apaideusias n kai nli8iotntos
upolnyiv. H xreia tnv opoiav apo tas allas exei n nmetera eivai polla
olign, epeidn parastekei sima tns n uperploutos autns mntnr, etoimn va
dwsn eis autnv o,ti tns leipei."]
Gia tnv avtigrafn,
F.M.
Nikos Sarantakos
At 01:21 ìì 02/06/98 +0300, Dionyshs Papadopoulos wrote:
>Molis twra diapistwsa oti o kyrios sarantakos meta apo thn profash
>"taksidiou" gia na lhksei h koybenta sthn lista tou american.edu
> metefere thn koybenta sth lista HEl...@lists.psu.edu
>sthn opoia den eimai syndromhths, apantwntas mou ekei!!!
>Etsi arxise koybenta gia emena ,xwris emena, kai xwris oi
>ypoloipoi sthn psu.edu na kseroun ti lew egw.To anakalypsa
>meta apo mynhma-apanthsh pou esteile kapoios ektos apo thn psu.edu
>kai se emena pou eide to onoma mou na anaferetai ekei xwris na
>yparxei epistolh dikia mou!!!!
> Twra kyrie sarantako apokalyfthikate plhrws.Blepw oti ekana
>lathos me to na pisteyw oti mporeite na koybentiasete sobara
>kai politismena .
> Tha graftw twra kai sthn psu.edu (parakalw kapoios na me eidopoihsei
>an ksanametafei o sarantakos h o opoiosdhpote allos thn koybenta se
>allh lista)
>
File, afou se zalizei, giati epimeneis?
Na prospaqhsw na sta pw apla, gia na katalabeis. Epeidh omws mporei
na mhn me pistepseis afou "apokalufqhka plhrws", parakalw kai
kapoion allon (p.x. ton Abdoul, pou maxetai peri qesmwn:-) na
me diapseusei h' epibebaiwsei.
Loipon, h lista Hellas einai men mia kai adiaireth, alla' exei treis kombous,
ton lists.psu.edu, ton american.edu kai ton uga, se isariqma amerikanika
panepisthmia. O kaqenas apo mas einai grammenos se enan apo tous
kombous autous, esu ston american, egw ston psu ktl. Otan stelneis
mhnuma sth lista, esu men to stelneis sto american, alla' auto diabibazetai
automatws se ola ta melh ths listas kai stous allous duo kombous. Kamia
fora omws to susthma faltsarei kai tote xanontai mhnumata.
To thread pou arxises esu, arxise apo ton american. To diabasa ki
egw, pou eimai ston psu.edu kai apanthsa. Den to eida mono
egw, to eidan oloi tou psu.edu kai oloi tou uga, m'alla logia olh h lista.
Kapoia stigmh, ena upo-thread stalqhke apo
kapoion ston psu.edu, kai kanonika qa eprepe na erqei kai se sena
-an den hrqe, se diabebaiw oti den ofeiletai se dolia parembash mou :-)
Ksanalew, h lista einai mia -den einai duo epimerous listes me
parallhla mhnumata.
Perimenw loipon, afou bebaiwqeis oti auta pou lew einai se genikes
grammes akribh (mporei na mou ksefeugei kamia leptomereia)
na zhthseis sugnwmh gia osa mou esoures, p.x.
> Twra kyrie sarantako apokalyfthikate plhrws.Blepw oti ekana
>lathos me to na pisteyw oti mporeite na koybentiasete sobara
>kai politismena .
nikos
UG
Oso gia to oti profasisthka taksidi, prokeimenou na metaferw thn
koubenta se allh lista (pou h lista einai mia) auto htan ontws
polu asteio. Epeidh bariemai na sou steilw fwtotupies tou eisithriou
kai epeidh den exw xrono na anebw stou Zwgrafou na me deis
autoproswpws, idou ena hint: ta prwta mou mhnumata eixan
stalei apo dieuqunsh pou teleiwne se .lu (=Louksembourgo),
ta twrina apo .gr (Ellada). Ki auto plastografia les na einai?
n.
Dionyshs Papadopoulos
Nikos George wrote:
>
> Dionyshs Papadopoulos said
> >
> [...]> [...]
>
> Twra na to pw 'h na mhn to'pw;;;
>
> George, GEORGE, Tzwrtz !!!! Mpaaaaaaa!
>
> :)))
>
> /Nikos
OK niko.To nikos george to perasa gia nikos gewrgiou
Apo edw kai pera tha se lew tzwrtz.
Filika
Dionyshs
Nikos George
Nikos Sarantakos
At 03:26 ìì 03/06/98 EDT, Panayiotis Giannikos wrote:
>In a message dated 02/06/98 02:19:05 GMT, you write:
>
><< Kamia fora, briskei kaneis sta arxaia polu endiaferouses periptwseis. Gia
>to
> qhluko tou "o tamias" to opoio sunhqws legetai "h tamias" eixa pei (se allh
> lista) oti o tupos "h tamias" einai teratwdhs kata th gnwmh mou kai oti to
> swsto gia mena einai "h tamia" dioti sun tois allois "h tamias" exei buzakia
> kai den mporei na sugxeetai me to "o tamias" pou exei moustakia.
> Fusika, oi sun-listobioi me eixan kraksei, kai mou eipan oti auta pou
> lew einai airetika kai malliara.
> Briskw loipon, oti sta arxaia uphrxe to qhluko tou tamias, kai fusika
> uphrxe ws "h tamia" (ston Omhro, alla' kai argotera, p.x. ston Ksenofwnta),
> kai xairomai xaran megalhn!
>
> nikos
> >>
>
>
>O tamias - h tamia.
>
>Kata Sarantako loipon,
Oxi kata Sarantako, file -kata Omhro kai kata Ksenofwnta, kai
kata thn arxaia xrhsh.
Ta alla pou paraqeteis, ta eis -os, oute idia periptwsh einai,
oute ta paradidoun oi arxaioi.
To loxias? Kai sto strato, gia tis kopeles legane, opws
qumamai, "h loxia". Den koitaksa an to paradidoun oi arxaioi,
den nomizw.
>
>O giatros - h giatrh, h giatra, h giatrina, h giatrissa, h giatressa.
>O loxias - h loxia (h loxiaina - kata to uaina)
>O upallhlos - h upallhlh
>O katadikos - h katadikh
>O kathgoros - h kathgorh
>klp
>
>Kai meta paraponiomas8e pou to augo sto e3hs mporei na grafetai kai abgo, to
>auto kai san afto, to auti kai san afti, kai katanthse o kahmos tou
Kazantzidh
>na tragoudietai sth glwssa ths Eurovision...
Pali tsoubaliazeis anomoia -h' den ksereis na diabazeis.
To augo, auti grafetai kata Mpamp. kai kata thn epishmh orqografia aBgo, aFti
alla' to "auto" kaneis apo tous parapanw den egrapse aFto. To "autos", kale
mou, einai aparallaxto to arxaio, efoson exoume istorikh orqografia qa to
grapsoume
me difqoggo. To abgo, afti den paradidetai sta arxaia, to au den einai
difqoggos,
kai etumologika einai orqotero na grafetai me B/F.
Filika
Nikos