Xantrex vs GFCI

[Ben Campbell]

I posted a week or so ago about having problems with the GFCI in our recently renovated slip. I think I’ve narrowed the problem down to our battery charter. It’s a Xantrex Truecharge2 20A unit. The charger will trip the GFCI even with the battery charge cables disconnected. Nothing else on that AC circuit seem to cause a problem, and the charger still trips if I disconnect all other AC loads and disconnect the reverse-polarity light. At this point I assume I need to replace the charger. I am considering another Xantrex to make the installation simpler. That leads to two questions:

1) Is this likely a charger gone bad, or is a replacement charger likely to do the same thing? (The marina electrician maintains the GFCI is good, and the problem persists when plugged into other 30A outlets.)

2) If I’m changing out the charger anyway, would it make sense to move to a 40A? My house bank is 2 79AH AGMs (West Marine grp 24), and the starter bank is one of the same (79AH AGM). Is the AC panel breaker likely to be able to handle the 40A charger? The breaker is unfortunately unlabeled. The owner’s manual says it’s 10A, which I suspect is a bit low for a 40A charger.

Thanks!

Ben Campbell
2009 Beneteau 31 “Dancing Days”
Lewisville Lake, TX

[Ben Campbell]

One other point: I noticed that Beneteau did not bother connecting the chassis ground lug on the Xantrex. It does have both the AC and DC electrical grounds connected. Is the lack of the chassis ground likely to cause a problem with the GFCI?

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[Bill Jarvis]

Ben,

A 20A charger at 14V will draw about 2.5 A of AC at 120V. A 40A charger will draw about 5A. Both are well within the capability of your 10A ac breaker.

With three 80AH batteries you have a total of 240AH capacity installed. Yours are AGM which can take in almost unlimited charging current but if you ever go back to wet cells the optimum charging rate would be about 20% of your installed AH capacity or 50A. The forty amp unit would be a very good choice.

One other thought, do you have any sort of inverter on the boat? They can cause grounding issues like you have described.

Bill

[Bill Jarvis]

Let's see. The CFCI is a Ground Fault Circuit interrupter and you don't have the ground ac ground connected. Hmmmmm

Bill

-----Original Message-----
From: benetea...@googlegroups.com [mailto:benetea...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ben Campbell

[Ben Campbell]

> On Jun 26, 2017, at 6:20 AM, Bill Jarvis <bjar...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
> One other thought, do you have any sort of inverter on the boat? They can cause grounding issues like you have described.

No inverter.

[Ben Campbell]

> On Jun 26, 2017, at 6:24 AM, Bill Jarvis <bjar...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
> Let's see. The CFCI is a Ground Fault Circuit interrupter and you don't have the ground ac ground connected. Hmmmmm

The AC input ground and DC output ground are connected. The unconnected bit is the external “chassis ground” lug, which should go to the boat DC ground bus. I imagine that if Beneteau didn’t connect mine, they didn’t connect a lot of them.

[DAVID Fletcher]

Be sure to check the hot water element.

They sometimes melt and rhe neutral and ground make a curcuit.

Then the system trips event if the hot water ac is disconnected. 

I've had this issue once. Easy to check and hard to find unless you have a little experience with this type of problem.

Just disconnect the white wire at the heater element and see what happens. 

Fletch

Sent from my Samsung device

[Mark J Wilme]

and most of the elements for the hot water heaters can be readily found in your friendly local orange big box home improvement store, you do not need to buy the marine one for 10x the cost.

Mark Wilme
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[Ben Campbell]

It only trips when I turn on the battery charter, and still trips if I remove the output wires from all the other AC breakers. So I don’t think it’s the water heater.

Also, my water heater has a double-throw breaker. How could that cause a trip when turned off?

[DAVID Fletcher]

Because the negative and the ground form a curcuit

You don't need power to go to ground

[Ben Campbell]

By “negative”, do you mean the AC neutral? Both the neutral and the hot wires are switched on my boat. Or do you mean some interaction between the AC and DC grounds?

[Bill Jarvis]

The problem is this. The GCFI is a "relay" that is set to switch is there is a difference in the current between the Live and neutral wires of approx. 2mA. The ground wire is connected to a really good ground ashore. By not grounding the chassis of the charger you are relying on the ground through the water. Not only can that be dangerous but it can cause excessive zinc usage.

Before deciding to replace the charger try connecting the ground. It may make no difference but it may cure the problem.

[Ben Campbell]

> On Jun 26, 2017, at 11:49 AM, Bill Jarvis <bjar...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
>
> The problem is this. The GCFI is a "relay" that is set to switch is there is a difference in the current between the Live and neutral wires of approx. 2mA. The ground wire is connected to a really good ground ashore. By not grounding the chassis of the charger you are relying on the ground through the water. Not only can that be dangerous but it can cause excessive zinc usage.
>
> Before deciding to replace the charger try connecting the ground. It may make no difference but it may cure the problem.

I will try this one way or another.

But I’m failing to follow the idea that grounding the chassis ground to the boat DC ground bus changes that—that still grounds through the water, doesn’t it? Do you think it likely that the chassis ground is internally isolated from the DC output ground, which is already bonded to the boat ground?

[Ben Campbell]

On rereading Bill’s note, I wonder if we are talking about the same thing. Bill, were you suggesting attaching the chassis ground to the AC ground? Unless I am misreading something, the Xantrex installation instructions call for attaching the chassis ground to the DC ground.

[Curaçao]

Be careful when connecting the chassis ground to the D.C. Side of the boat. Theoretically the chassis of the charger is connected to the power post ground which is connected to the neutral side of the AC power grid and earth via a ground rod somewhere. If you connect the chassis to the boat bonding, which you will do if you ground the chassis to anywhere on the DC side of the boat, you will create a ground loop back to the neutral wire with your zincs providing the anode. I would not connect the chassis to the boat without the advise of a knowledgeable marine electrician.

Bill is correct. The CFCI interrupts the circuit if it senses any difference in the amount of current between the hot side and the neutral side of the circuit. The assumption is that electricity is leaking somewhere, like into a person, and it trips, hopefully, before any damage or injury. Connecting the chassis ground will not fix the problem. If the charger trips the circuit with BOTH DC cables disconnected on multiple GFCI then I suspect it is the charger.

Michael Elliott

[Ben Campbell]

> On Jun 26, 2017, at 12:24 PM, Curaçao <benet...@ec.rr.com> wrote:
>
> Be careful when connecting the chassis ground to the D.C. Side of the boat. Theoretically the chassis of the charger is connected to the power post ground which is connected to the neutral side of the AC power grid and earth via a ground rod somewhere. If you connect the chassis to the boat bonding, which you will do if you ground the chassis to anywhere on the DC side of the boat, you will create a ground loop back to the neutral wire with your zincs providing the anode. I would not connect the chassis to the boat without the advise of a knowledgeable marine electrician.
>

In reading the Xantrex comments about proper sizing of the ground cable, I am starting to agree that connecting it without an electrician’s advice would be worrying. I can imagine it becoming a return path for a significant portion of the charging current if anything went wrong with the main output ground wire. I can see that going badly.

> Bill is correct. The CFCI interrupts the circuit if it senses any difference in the amount of current between the hot side and the neutral side of the circuit. The assumption is that electricity is leaking somewhere, like into a person, and it trips, hopefully, before any damage or injury. Connecting the chassis ground will not fix the problem. If the charger trips the circuit with BOTH DC cables disconnected on multiple GFCI then I suspect it is the charger.

To reconfirm: It trips on multiple GFCIs with all output cables removed. Do you think it is safe to assume that this is a failure rather than a design issue that would make a new unit do the same thing? The current unit has been in mostly continuous service for about 8 years.

[Mark J Wilme]

Agree this would make sense

Mark Wilme
Mark....@Gmail.com

+1 (508) 826 5607

www.linkedin.com/in/markwilme            

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[Bill Jarvis]

I think that is highly probable.

[DAVID Fletcher]

Yes my bad, neutral

Sent from my Samsung device

-------- Original message --------
From: Ben Campbell <b...@nostrum.com>

Date: 2017-06-26 12:27 (GMT-05:00)
To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Xantrex vs GFCI

By “negative”, do you mean the AC neutral? Both the neutral and the hot wires are switched on my boat. Or do you mean some interaction between the AC and DC grounds?

> On Jun 26, 2017, at 11:07 AM, DAVID Fletcher <davidcf...@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> Because the negative and the ground form a curcuit
>
> You don't need power to go to ground
>
>
>
> Sent from my Samsung device
>
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: Ben Campbell <b...@nostrum.com>
> Date: 2017-06-26 11:45 (GMT-05:00)

> To: benetea...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Xantrex vs GFCI
>

> It only trips when I turn on the battery charter, and still trips if I remove the output wires from all the other AC breakers. So I don’t think it’s the water heater.
>
> Also, my water heater has a double-throw breaker. How could that cause a trip when turned off?
>
> > On Jun 26, 2017, at 10:33 AM, DAVID Fletcher <davidcf...@rogers.com> wrote:
> >
> > Be sure to check the hot water element.
> >
> > They sometimes melt and rhe neutral and ground make a curcuit.
> >
> > Then the system trips event if the hot water ac is disconnected.
> >
> >
> > I've had this issue once. Easy to check and hard to find unless you have a little experience with this type of problem.
> >
> > Just disconnect the white wire at the heater element and see what happens.
> >
> > Fletch
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent from my Samsung device
> >
> >
> > -------- Original message --------
> > From: Ben Campbell <b...@nostrum.com>
> > Date: 2017-06-26 10:32 (GMT-05:00)

> > To: Beneteau Owners <benetea...@googlegroups.com>
> > Subject: Re: {Beneteau Owners} Xantrex vs GFCI
> >
> >

[Ben Campbell]

Do you think there is still a chance the water heater could trip the breaker when both the neutral and hot are switched off?

As far as I can tell, all of the AC breakers on my 09 Beneteau 31 are double-throw, switching both hot and neutral. Is that not the case for other boats?

[DAVID Fletcher]

The line at the breakers, breaks the power hot and neutral from the curcuit to the shore supply. So the neutral is broken from the land to the hot water heater curcuit.

If the hot water heater is shorted ground to neutral below the breaker everything in the system is shorted to neutral below the breaker as all of neutrals and grounds become connected due to the short. Thus the breakers or gfi do their job and trip

[Ben Campbell]

> On Jun 26, 2017, at 1:59 PM, DAVID Fletcher <davidcf...@rogers.com> wrote:
>
> The line at the breakers, breaks the power hot and neutral from the curcuit to the shore supply. So the neutral is broken from the land to the hot water heater curcuit.
>
> If the hot water heater is shorted ground to neutral below the breaker everything in the system is shorted to neutral below the breaker as all of neutrals and grounds become connected due to the short. Thus the breakers or gfi do their job and trip

Ah, I see. But wouldn’t that trip the gfci when _anything_ was turned on? (especially the water heater)? Would a continuity test between the neutral at the switch output and ground prove whether a short exists there or somewhere? (Or at the heater itself, although the wiring is not as accessible there.)

Now I did remove both output wires from the water heater switch, and the charger still tripped. (Also, my water heater has almost never had AC turned on since I’ve had it, if that makes any difference for this sort of failure.)

[DAVID Fletcher]

I am all done