Future of BeagleBone (Black)?

[Karl Karpfen]

Hi,

I'm aware of the fact that there can't be a obligatory answer to my question, so I'm happy with any kind of rumours and rough ideas:

As far as I know TI does not further develop the AM335X series, more than this I remember an article where they stated they drop the whole mobile devices marked where this CPU was intended for originally. So I don't think there will be a multi core variant of this Sitara SoC or even a version with higher clock.

So: what future could be there for the BeagleBone (Black)? Will there be a somehow compatible successor? Or what else is planned?

Thanks!

Karl

[Peter Lawler]

On 19/05/15 16:45, Karl Karpfen wrote:

> So: what future could be there for the BeagleBone (Black)? Will there be a
> somehow compatible successor? Or what else is planned?

Well, there's the upcoming X15.
http://elinux.org/Beagleboard:BeagleBoard-X15

And if I were a betting man, I'd put a few dollars on there eventually
being a small version of that, as much as the BBB is a small version of
the larger Board/Board xM thing.

P.

[Gerald Coley]

BeagleBone Black at this point has no processor future due to TI's dead end road map.

We are working on the BeagleBoard-X15 which is the next product to come out. Due to the form factor of the BBB, it cannot support the AM5728 processor. The BBB is just too small, but it does fit in the Altoids box.

Gerald

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[Robert P. J. Day]

On Tue, 19 May 2015, Gerald Coley wrote:

> BeagleBone Black at this point has no processor future due to TI's
> dead end road map. We are working on the BeagleBoard-X15 which is
> the next product to come out. Due to the form factor of the BBB, it
> cannot support the AM5728 processor. The BBB is just too small, but
> it does fit in the Altoids box.

at what point will units be available? i wouldn't mind starting to
move over my embedded linux and device driver courseware to the X15,
at least in preparation for when the final units come out.

rday

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[Gerald Coley]

If I knew that, I would have mentioned that. I would say maybe late September. We hope to have a few beta boards in about 6 weeks. Jason is handling who gets those boards. Right now, we are going back into layout to fix yet another TI "feature".

Gerald

[Philip]

On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 10:14:20 AM UTC-4, Gerald wrote:

If I knew that, I would have mentioned that. I would say maybe late September. We hope to have a few beta boards in about 6 weeks. Jason is handling who gets those boards. Right now, we are going back into layout to fix yet another TI "feature".

Will the cape interface stay the same?

Philip

[Robert Nelson]

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 9:24 AM, Philip <philip....@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, May 19, 2015 at 10:14:20 AM UTC-4, Gerald wrote:
>>
>> If I knew that, I would have mentioned that. I would say maybe late
>> September. We hope to have a few beta boards in about 6 weeks. Jason is
>> handling who gets those boards. Right now, we are going back into layout to
>> fix yet another TI "feature".
>>
>
> Will the cape interface stay the same?

Nope, and don't mention stuff like that, we don't want to give Gerald
a heart attack..

Regards,

--
Robert Nelson
https://rcn-ee.com/

[Micka]

Hi, where did you get those information? Where did Texas say that it is over for the am335x?

[Gerald Coley]

This processor and board is no where near compatible with capes. Totally different connectors. 

Gerald

[Gerald Coley]

Here are a couple of pictures.

http://elinux.org/Beagleboard:BeagleBoard-X15

Gerald

[William Hermans]

4 x 4.5 inches is still pretty darned small. Especially considering what is on the board. Looking forward to the board, even if not the price :/

[Gerald Coley]

Small is a relative term. This thing has been one big headache after another.

Gerlad

[evilwulfie]

TI and their "features"  eh   lol

[mi...@mikini.dk]

May 19th 2015 16.39.22 UTC+2 Karl/Gerald/Mickae1 wrote:

 >>> As far as I know TI does not further develop the AM335X series, more than this I remember an article where they stated they drop the whole mobile devices marked where this CPU was intended for originally.

 >> BeagleBone Black at this point has no processor future due to TI's dead end road map.

 > Hi, where did you get those information? Where did Texas say that it is over for the am335x?

Second that, sources and/or further insights would be nice if this is general knowledge affecting development prioritizations. Might lead to better understanding out here for the lack of attention to the current BeagleBone {W,B,G} products.

Finding no publicly communicated indications of TI reconsidering mobile, Sitara or AM335x. Officially AM3358 is marked as active on http://www.ti.com/product/AM3358, and http://e2e.ti.com/support/arm/sitara_arm/f/791/p/152524/560202 describes 10 years availability of AM335x (released 2011-10-31). I guess then that manufacturing of BBB based designs is possible until 2021 (at least processor wise).

But I hear your saying that we shouldn't expect further developments and a bright shiny future for the current incarnation of the BeagleBone boards?

Mikkel

[Robert Nelson]

On Tue, May 19, 2015 at 7:20 PM, <mi...@mikini.dk> wrote:
>
> May 19th 2015 16.39.22 UTC+2 Karl/Gerald/Mickae1 wrote:
> >>> As far as I know TI does not further develop the AM335X series, more
> than this I remember an article where they stated they drop the whole mobile
> devices marked where this CPU was intended for originally.
> >> BeagleBone Black at this point has no processor future due to TI's dead
> end road map.
> > Hi, where did you get those information? Where did Texas say that it is
> over for the am335x?
>
> Second that, sources and/or further insights would be nice if this is
> general knowledge affecting development prioritizations. Might lead to
> better understanding out here for the lack of attention to the current
> BeagleBone {W,B,G} products.

TI's roadmap's are kinda funny..

While there is no pin for pin am335x++, the "am43xx" is the sudo
sucessor to the am335x...

> Finding no publicly communicated indications of TI reconsidering mobile,
> Sitara or AM335x. Officially AM3358 is marked as active on
> http://www.ti.com/product/AM3358, and
> http://e2e.ti.com/support/arm/sitara_arm/f/791/p/152524/560202 describes 10
> years availability of AM335x (released 2011-10-31). I guess then that
> manufacturing of BBB based designs is possible until 2021 (at least
> processor wise).

Correct, 10 year plan unless something major happens.. The am335x has
been a pretty good success..

> But I hear your saying that we shouldn't expect further developments and a
> bright shiny future for the current incarnation of the BeagleBone boards?

There's other 3rd party boards, such as seeed studio's BeagleBone Green. ;)

[sa_Penguin]

If "small" is a relative term, and BBB cape compatibility is not on the table, can you aim for "slim"?
By which I mean - no double height USB connectors, etc.

Apple have a lot to answer for, making laptops and phone thinner every year.
The problem is, customers start to want thin even when there's no real need.
Using a folded cable to put an LCD on the back of a Dev board helps, and side-mount expansion sockets help too.

--Alan Campbell

[Gerald Coley]

There is not a better processor available from TI that can fit into the Altoids box sized BBB. We have a processor that is much better but will not fit on the baoad. So we are doing the X15.  Not sure how else to say it. 

We will be building the BBB for a very long time.

Gerald

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[Karl Karpfen]

2015-05-20 15:12 GMT+02:00 Gerald Coley <ger...@beagleboard.org>:

We will be building the BBB for a very long time.

This is good news. To give it some numbers, will it be 3, 4, 5 or more years?

Karl

[Gerald Coley]

As long as there are processors. I would say at least 5 to 10. But that is TI's call. You might ask Jason what TI's plans are for availability.

Gerald

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[Jason Kridner]

The general plan is to continue shipping a BeagleBoard.org product 10
years after launch. BeagleBone Black launched in 2013.

>
> Karl

[Walter Schilling]

That's a real problem if the interface doesn't stay compatible in the future.  When I look at Arduino, capes are compatible with previous versions.  Same goes with the Raspberry Pi.  Version 1 to version 2 adds features, but generally keeps compatibility between them.  With the Beagle's, each version has had a radically different form factor and support.  White's started with an extra header, removed for the blacks, breaking some capes.

[Gerald Coley]

BeagleBone Black needed to be cheap. something had to go. Rest of the expansion signals are the same and those signals are still there on the board..

I disagree that the changes were radical. I fact, we lowered the cost and added features.

If we change to another processor, the pin muxing changes. To comply with your desire to keep them all the same, you have just made my case.

Gerald

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[William Hermans]

That's a real problem if the interface doesn't stay compatible in the future.  When I look at Arduino, capes are compatible with previous versions.  Same goes with the Raspberry Pi.  Version 1 to version 2 adds features, but generally keeps compatibility between them.  With the Beagle's, each version has had a radically different form factor and support.  White's started with an extra header, removed for the blacks, breaking some capes.

But we're not talking about an Arduino, or an rPI. We're talking about:

a) a beagleBOARD class of system

b) Then trying to compare it to the beagleBONE class of system.

They're not the same. Also, if cape compatibility is the true motivation for this discussion. See this as an opportunity, not a hindrance.

[William Hermans]

Also, we're talking 10 years down the road here. Whose to say what will happen by then. Take a look at the MSP430 line of MCUs for example. I do not know the exact history of the MCU line, but it became popular, and it is still with us . . . refreshes have been made, changes / variations have been made. Now we have many different classes of MSP430 MCUs for different use cases.

Lately TI even "extended" the MSP430 line by mixing in the M4F processor . For "high end applications". Is it truly an MSP430 though ? Here, I think the more important question should be: "Does it even matter ?"

[Chris Morgan]

Isn't 10 years just the total life of the chip/product line? This
doesn't say TI is going to be advancing that processor line.

Consider that right now the Pi2 has a quad core processor. If TI isn't
going to be keeping up with that kind of pace of processor development
for the AM335x line (or maybe its the am3xxx line?) is a single core
1GHz processor going to be relevant in a year or five? Is it staying
relevant right now given the other SBCs at a similar
price/capabilities standpoint?

I can say that internal to where I work we've been eyeing the quad
core ARM processor boards that have appeared. We like the BBB a ton
and we'd love to see it go quad core and double up on the ram for a
similar price point. Maintaining cape/software compatibility would be
a big win imo.

Chris

[Gerald Coley]

That is a question for Jason. He is the TI guy.

Gerald

[Przemek Klosowski]

On Wed, May 20, 2015 at 11:43 AM, William Hermans <yyr...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Lately TI even "extended" the MSP430 line by mixing in the M4F processor .
> For "high end applications". Is it truly an MSP430 though ? Here, I think
> the more important question should be: "Does it even matter ?"

You are talking about MSP432; I wrote a Wikipedia article about it
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TI_MSP432
In short, they used a Cortex M4F core just like their existing Tiva
chips, but added MSP430-like peripherals and a built-in ROM with
compatible peripheral library.

[Walter Schilling]

Pin muxing is something that can very easily be controlled in software / managed with software changes and routing on the board.  However, if the physical interface is different, you end up throwing out all of the peripherals you have.  Think of it this way: how standard would USB be if each version used a different physical interconnect?  They haven't.  There's a few "standard" interfaces out there for the hardware.

Walt

[Gerald Coley]

Not if it takes 5 pins to equal the peripheral mix needed by one standard BBB pin.

Gerald

[Walter Schilling]

I guess I should mention why, at least to me, it does matter.  We use the Beagle in coursework on campus, teaching students how to develop real time systems.  We first started out with the XM, and a set of peripherals.  However, right as we were ready to gear up for the course, the XM peripherals became unavailable.  So we switched to the bone, which was being supported at the time.  But then as the class was rolling out, after we had designed the course to run with the BB Blacks, the Blacks disappeared from inventory (not to repeat that at all..)  So we had to downgrade to the whites.  But about the same time, access to the Angstrom distribution essentially vanished for a while as well.  So we were somewhat stuck.  This year things went smoother, as everything was available.  But the challenge is, to do the course, we've got probably $400-$500 worth of equipment per student enrolled in the course.  That's about $25-30K in equipment that needs to be amortized out over multiple years.

So I guess, that's why I'm a bit concerned about incompatible formats being developed.

[Karl Karpfen]

2015-05-20 18:15 GMT+02:00 Chris Morgan <chmo...@gmail.com>:

Isn't 10 years just the total life of the chip/product line? This
doesn't say TI is going to be advancing that processor line.

Plesse chek out this thread, there is a link to a TI-statement where they say it will be available for a bit more than nine years at least (from now on).

 

Consider that right now the Pi2 has a quad core processor. If TI isn't
going to be keeping up with that kind of pace of processor development
for the AM335x line (or maybe its the am3xxx line?) is a single core
1GHz processor going to be relevant in a year or five?

It may not be relevant for hobbyists that always want to have the latest hardware and replace their board every month, but it is HIGHLY relevant for all kinds of industry usage where a hardware needs to stay available and stable over a longer period. There it does not matter when the device itself is a bit outdated, it would be much more expensive for companies to change a whole machine just because a simple controller board is no longer available. And when BBB will be avilable for more than 5 years, this is really very good for this area.

And from my feeling that's where BBB goes to: many companies are already using it for professional purposes while RasPi and the others are more or less for hobbyists.

[William Hermans]

It may not be relevant for hobbyists that always want to have the latest hardware and replace their board every month, but it is HIGHLY relevant for all kinds of industry usage where a hardware needs to stay available and stable over a longer period. There it does not matter when the device itself is a bit outdated, it would be much more expensive for companies to change a whole machine just because a simple controller board is no longer available. And when BBB will be avilable for more than 5 years, this is really very good for this area.

And from my feeling that's where BBB goes to: many companies are already using it for professional purposes while RasPi and the others are more or less for hobbyists.

This is where you, and "the industry" would be wrong. The beaglebone black is not a commercial product. Use it as such at your own "peril". Which is to say. DO not expect to get any sympathy from this camp . . .

[Przemek Klosowski]

On Thu, May 21, 2015 at 1:14 AM, Karl Karpfen <karlka...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It may not be relevant for hobbyists that always want to have the latest
> hardware and replace their board every month, but it is HIGHLY relevant for
> all kinds of industry usage where a hardware needs to stay available and
> stable over a longer period. There it does not matter when the device itself
> is a bit outdated, it would be much more expensive for companies to change a
> whole machine just because a simple controller board is no longer available.

Right, and it leads to a paradoxical situation where old, slow
hardware is much more expensive than shiny new, fast hardware--there
are many hidden costs involved in guaranteed multi-year availability.
The industry is willing to pay for such guarantees, but most of the
people on this list are not so inclined.

[Bill Mar]

There are indeed two camps - the bleeding edge that loves change and the trailing edge that wants stability.  God bless both camps as they depend on each other for a viable ecosystem.

Thanks to BeagleBoard open source and parts/doc public availability, we can attempt to tackle the "perils" that we believe is a better trade-off than building everything ourselves.

Special Computing offers BeagleBoneBlack with or without logos for both camps which we can build/test ourselves and offer to the public.  This allows us to be independent to offer options like industrial temp plus variations like 1GB DRAM, Wifi, other processors, etc.

https://specialcomp.com/beaglebone

Special Computing

+1-480-818-5745

[William Hermans]

There are indeed two camps - the bleeding edge that loves change and the trailing edge that wants stability.  God bless both camps as they depend on each other for a viable ecosystem.

To be clear: The camp I'm in understands that the beaglebone was never meant to be used in a commercial product. This has been stated on these groups more than a couple times. By those who are part of beagleboard.org.

So when a person, or persons approaches a discussion from the commercial angle, I feel that part of the discussion is moot. At least on these groups.

Now the teacher / student perspective I think is more reasonable. After all if memory serves correctly, this was one of beagelboard.org's initial goals. To teach. However, one also needs to understand. The software community behind the hardware does not get paid by beaglebord.org, or the end user to create, improve, or otherwise keep the same software running on *this* board indefinitely. Or even at all. Now perhaps there are third party companies who do allow, or even pay employees to work in this capacity. But they are under no obligation to do so. Such is open source software . . .

However, we as hobbyists, or even professionals are allowed to contribute back to the community. We are even allowed to build our own boards, based on the open sourced hardware. For commercial applications, or whatever. By doing so though, we accept full responsibility for our creation. As it should be.

As for the longevity of the AM355x . . . Let us worry about that 7-8 years from now . . .

[Karl Karpfen]

2015-05-22 4:25 GMT+02:00 William Hermans <yyr...@gmail.com>:

To be clear: The camp I'm in understands that the beaglebone was never meant to be used in a commercial product.

OK but it is capable to be used for commercial/industrial purposes - so why should't it be used for that? Farnell, RS and I think Specialcomp too sell them by thousands - all to commercial customers. So I don't see a good reason why it should not be used for that - just because _initially_ it was planned to be used for hobbyists only?

As an other example: the diesel engine originally was invented for ships, following this logic also today we should not it use for cars and locomotives...

[Micka]

As everyone said, use the beaglebone black as you want ! But don't blame the community if there is problems of availability or compatibility in the future !

[Karl Karpfen]

Am Freitag, 22. Mai 2015 07:25:40 UTC+2 schrieb Mickae1:

As everyone said, use the beaglebone black as you want ! But don't blame the community if there is problems of availability or compatibility in the future !

TI states the AM335X will be available for >9 years, Gerald states the BBB will be available for >5 years, the hardware is open so that everyone is able to manufacture an own board - so why should someone be blamed for something?

[Gerald Coley]

Blame does happen. Not sure why, but it does.

Gerald

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[William Hermans]

OK but it is capable to be used for commercial/industrial purposes - so why should't it be used for that? Farnell, RS and I think Specialcomp too sell them by thousands - all to commercial customers. So I don't see a good reason why it should not be used for that - just because _initially_ it was planned to be used for hobbyists only?

I think you're missing a key point here. No one as far as I know is saying the beaglebone black can not be used in a commercial product. Once someone buys a board it is theirs to do with as they wish.

What I've been saying is that whoever does use the beagelbone black in a product assumes full responsibility for doing so. Support ? Availability? - Everything. All their problem from that point forward. As it should be.

Does this mean no one would try to help at all ? I would think if someone could help - they would. Out of good will. But legally, or even morally there is no obligation. As the board is not sold as, or priced as a commercial product.

One thing I am a little unclear on: Is *if* the board is even allowed to bear the beaglebone logo at this point. I think not, but maybe I'm wrong?