Do you need pallet wood?

[Joseph Wheeler]

I'm a delivery driver and I see pallet wood at various locations on my route do you guys want any? See attached pic files as an example of what I find.

[Riley Cassel]

God NO

Usually when an expensive planer (or it's bits/cutters) is destroyed
some fool was putting pallet wood (with nails) through it. Much of
it is also treated with insanely nasty insecticides so the sawdust it
creates is lethal to folks with allergies. (Probably to you muggles
too)


There's a recurring debate about banning pallet wood altogether...


-
Riley

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[Jose Gaytan]

If I had a pickup truck I would take you on the offer but I only have a small car and can only handle a couple of pallets. I agree that blades and knives of power woodworking machines don't exactly like metal, that's why people that up cycle  or use pallet wood always have a metal detector on hand. The inferred danger of dangerous chemicals in the dust created is a bit overrated. You obviously would not use a pallet that has signs or stains of any kind of spill, you don't even do that with lumber or plywood! If what you are talking about is Methyl Bromide (pesticide in third world countries banned in the U.S.) you don't see it that often in the U.S. But even if someone uses it by accident the chemical itself dissipates rather quickly when is airborne just like any other pesticide. If you are worried about allergens and your health a woodworking or industrial arts shop is not a good place to be around. Just an example in ATX you have residual radiation from the laser machines (classified as Class IV if I'm correct by OSHA), supposedly the vent system and the cabinet of the machine protect you from that; but is it really safe? You have people using plywood, MDF, HDF, Corian, or whatever substrate or stock in the CNC, all of these probably manufactured in China that use glue that contains formaldehyde, are you OK breathing that dust? Heck in the week or so I have been a member I even seen pressure treated plywood being cut in the CNC and I don't know of any city, county or state that allows that for indoor use. You more than likely have Carbide dust in the air from the carbide tips of router bits or saw blades. In enough quantities is not exactly healthy or good for your body. I'm not even going to go into other chemicals commonly used for finishing or top coating projects. To be honest the only thing that I worry is mold in the pallets but that can be existent in regular lumber or plywood as well. Don't bash pallet lumber is just a lower grade lumber that was found as a good use for industrial purposes it comes from the same trees that regular lumber comes from. I do use it but I also respect the rules of whatever shop I use so I will not bring it into ATX. Why I use it? is what's hot (rustic look) and out of a pallet you can make 1 1/2 crates that you can sell anywhere from $20 to $75 all from a free trashed pallet. The same crate made out of red oak would cost the same just to make it and you would not sell it that quick. There are some members that make signs out of this and probably clear a hundred dollars from one pallet.

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 7:30 PM, Joseph Wheeler <josephl...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm a delivery driver and I see pallet wood at various locations on my route do you guys want any? See attached pic files as an example of what I find.

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Jose Gaytan

[stephen.mercer]

“Heck in the week or so I have been a member I even seen pressure treated plywood being cut in the CNC and I don't know of any city, county or state that allows that for indoor use.”

Can you go into more detail here? People cut pressure-treated plywood all the time with various saws at many places I’ve worked. The CNC is just a spinning blade. What is illegal about this? What is the risk here? I don’t know the concern.

[Jose Gaytan]

I did not say is illegal to use. I was typing kinda fast so let me correct my statement a bit: pressure treated lumber should not be cut indoors. The spinning blade creates dust as small as microns (probably nano too) depending how sharp and how fast is cutting that you can breathe into your lungs. That dust is not just inert fibers they contain the chemical(s) that make it resistant to mostly moisture or pests. Those chemicals at one point in time were considered carcinogenic. Supposedly the manufacturers changed the formula to stop that but the fumes they release in enclosed spaces make some people sick so you decide. Also if is made in china you don't really know what process they used. So if it is green, brown, yellow, orange or blue (pressure treated lumber) when it comes to me, if I have to use it, I cut it outdoors with at the very least a good quality mask. More and more you are starting to see videos made by professionals that when they go to cut or turn you will see them put on a respirator. Check the markings on the edge of the material you are using among the garble the chemical used should be listed. Then check the Material Safety Data Sheet for the chemical(s) or trade name and in there it should list the health hazards and it should also tell you how to work safely or handle that kind of material and/or what kind of personal protective equipment (respirator, gloves etc.) to use. After that if you're happy, spin the blade and make some dust brother!

On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 9:58 AM, stephen.mercer <stephen...@gmail.com> wrote:

“Heck in the week or so I have been a member I even seen pressure treated plywood being cut in the CNC and I don't know of any city, county or state that allows that for indoor use.”

Can you go into more detail here? People cut pressure-treated plywood all the time with various saws at many places I’ve worked. The CNC is just a spinning blade. What is illegal about this? What is the risk here? I don’t know the concern.

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[Stephen Loftus-Mercer]

I check the safety sheets for laser cutting. I never would’ve thought to check for blade cutting. Thanks for the info. 

-- Stephen

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[p51dpc]

Can anyone recommend a good mask or respirator that allows you to still use safety glasses and not fog them up?  If I use the safety glasses, I just have to hold my breath because the masks fogs the glasses, so I have a constant battle between using my mask and taking it off in order to be able to see, but I don't seem to be able to find a way to make them both work at the same time.  

 

--Patrice

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Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [atxhs-discuss] Do you need pallet wood?

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[Jose Gaytan]

Have you tried using a full face respirator? Anti fogging compound on your safety glasses? The compound liquid they have a version by the windshield wiper fluid in walmart. the full face respirators there are all kinds of versions and prices.

 https://www.amazon.com/Respirator-Reusable-Pesticide-Breathing-Apparatus/dp/B075FM853D

https://industrialsafety.com/msa-804638-ultra-elite-spectacle-kit-side-wire-support-1-ea-30854638.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw_tTXBRBsEiwArqXyMl6U8XFfxh4s3zJdZ3Cm6OFTf7bBkFQPa9iwwrbZPSO6gJA-BxuqUxoCuuoQAvD_BwE

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Jose Gaytan

[CP]

full-face, for those of us who wear Rx glasses would require an optical insert with your Rx in it.

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[p51dpc]

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll hit that aisle in Walmart!

 

--Patrice

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[ThVortex]

There are a couple of half mask respirators at the shop you can test out (plastic drawers to the right of the shelves). I have a 7500 series 3M respirator and it's served me well. I think they also come in small/medium/large sizes. You might need to buy the filter cartridges separately.

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[Joseph Wheeler]

I can pick up as many as we can use, if there is a place to store the wood. I'm new to atx and will be in the the shop this weekend. 

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[Jose Gaytan]

If you try the ones at the shop have some alcohol pads to sanitize the respirators, before and after use. The reason I say before use is that you don't know if the person before you cleansed or sanitized the respirator. I'm not sure if they have them on hand there. You can also use a paper towel moistened with alcohol or isopropyl  There is some cleansing pads that are alcohol free but i'm not sure if they're easily available. Maybe a safety store? Anyway even if you get you're own make it a practice to cleanse it often. 

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[Dan DeFelippi]

Just an example in ATX you have residual radiation from the laser machines (classified as Class IV if I'm correct by OSHA), supposedly the vent system and the cabinet of the machine protect you from that; but is it really safe?

Can you expand on that? I've never heard of such a thing. How can laser cutting create radiation? And what kind of radiation do you mean?

[Dan DeFelippi]

To clarify I'm obviously aware of the light radiation from lasers (the R in laser). There isn't any residual light so I'm trying to figure out what else you could mean by "residual radiation."

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Dan DeFelippi
+1.585.466.4747
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On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 9:48 PM, Dan DeFelippi <d...@driverdan.com> wrote:

Just an example in ATX you have residual radiation from the laser machines (classified as Class IV if I'm correct by OSHA), supposedly the vent system and the cabinet of the machine protect you from that; but is it really safe?

Can you expand on that? I've never heard of such a thing. How can laser cutting create radiation? And what kind of radiation do you mean?

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[Howie]

Fellows: All I know is that since I have been operating Big Red my hair is fuller and thicker.

Now about the Pallet wood-pallets lay around parking lots and nasty areas. They pick up rocks that can not be detected with a metal detector. Never run pallet wood through the space' machines.

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[Matts GMAIL]

I totally agree with Howie’s statement.

..... His hair is fuller and thicker.

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[Jose Gaytan]

It is not as bad as you think, people see radiation and think cancer and deadly. There are different kinds of radiation. But before I go any further let me tell that I am not an expert and you can research a bit further yourself. Lasers can have four different kinds of radiation from Class I to Class IV. They have different kinds of purpose some are medical and illegal for the public to have and others are industrial. In a way is a bit hard to explain without going into how that light beam that you see, is produced. that would take long so look it up in google. So once you look it up the universal machine has two laser tubes (most other brands have only one) which means it shoots two beams less than a millimeter thick each (give or take 25% depending on the focus lens/a 2.5 lens I think shoot a .012mm thick beam, but don't hold me to that it has been a long time since I looked it up) in a way it does not matter since we're talking about radiation, back to the tube itself. American made lasers usually have an enclosed aluminum cased laser tube (I can't remember the trade name, Synrad??), chinese for the most part use a glass enclosed tube. So if you look at the back of the machine and open the big door you will see to long rectangular aluminum boxes and they should have the labels below. Newer models also have yellow labels on top somewhere on the lid or doors. I guess to make it short you can be exposed to radiation if you come in direct contact with the beam itself and according to the manufacturers and the government other than burns, or making you blind (if you look directly at the beam for prolonged periods), it is not that serious. Is it likely this would happen? Is very improbable as there is a safety feature that when you open the lid or door the beam automatically stops shooting from the tube and dirt or zoot around the sensors don't really impair it as they are magnetic (yeap two or more cheap magnets). So if you open the lid while the machine is running, and the beam still shooting you would be exposed to scattered radiation or residual radiation along with all the lovely fumes. Below is a little more info.  

The laser machines are equipped with a sealed carbon-dioxide (CO2) laser that emits intense and invisible laser radiation with a wavelength of 10.6 microns (10600nm) in the infrared spectrum. Laser radiation is invisible for human eyes because of the applicable wavelength.

The Infrared (invisible) laser radiation is especially dangerous for human eyes because its effect enhanced by crystalline lens focuses on the retina of eyeball. The high intensity of radiation on the retina leads to powerful localized heating and burns its tissue which causes reduction or loss of vision. Therefore working closed to the laser beam (during maintenance, positioning of optical system, repair) always protect eyes.

The direct, reflected and scattered laser radiation is dangerous while operating the machine. Prevent hands and body from contacts with the laser beam working area. The scattered laser radiation can burn the skin on hands. The damage degree depends on the duration of laser beam exposure. It is obliged to wear appropriate protective clothing for skin protection.

Smoke, toxic gases and particles emitted during the laser operating process can significantly damage your health and cause death. Carefully check the material safety datasheet (MSDS) and the material composition for emission of harmful substances. Provide high-quality air extraction system in the working area of laser engraver. The smoke and gassed emitted during cutting and engraving can contaminate and damage the optical lenses and mirrors.

The laser machine focus lens is made of zinc selenide (ZnSe). The focus lens is safe for health under normal operating conditions, but it requires regular inspection and cleaning. In case of damage (cracks, split, scratches, abrasion, overheating and etc.) the focus lens has to be replaced by new. Using the damaged optics can cause the emission of toxic gases and harm your health.

The toxic vapor of zinc oxide and selenium oxide is emitting while working with the damaged focus lens. Zinc selenide is toxic if inhaled or swallowed. Dust may cause irritation of eyes and respiratory system. If you find the optic is damaged, you must thoroughly ventilate the room and carefully clean the laser equipment from dirt formed due to emission of toxic vapor on the damaged optics. Contact your supplier to get more details about laser safety.

On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 9:48 PM, Dan DeFelippi <d...@driverdan.com> wrote:

Just an example in ATX you have residual radiation from the laser machines (classified as Class IV if I'm correct by OSHA), supposedly the vent system and the cabinet of the machine protect you from that; but is it really safe?

Can you expand on that? I've never heard of such a thing. How can laser cutting create radiation? And what kind of radiation do you mean?

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Jose Gaytan

[Danny Miller]

I REALLY do not like seeing the term "radiation" appear here.

It is just 10600nm infrared light.  There is a great deal of this in sunlight, outside the visible range.  Now, UV is outside visible range in the other side, HIGHER energy per photon than visible light, capable of causing some chemical reactions. 

10600nm IR is low energy per photon and can't do anything but deliver heat.  And none of it can get through the glass, glass and acrylic is totally opaque to 10600nm.  Let alone the steel frame.

Danny

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[Oleksandr Bovtenko]

Finally.. So science. Not just opinions.

Thank you Danny. Ok you all. Now you can go to sleep.

[FRush]

Dany is right.  Radiation from the laser is of little or no consequence.  It is a commercial machine, not something built in someone’s garage following no regulations.  The fumes from the stuff being burnt in the machine are a much more serious issue.  That is why the air circulation is very important.  Always make sure the exhaust is on and keep the lid closed so it can work most effectively.

 

From: atxhs-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:atxhs-...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 2:39 AM
To: atxhs-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [atxhs-discuss] Do you need pallet wood?

 

I REALLY do not like seeing the term "radiation" appear here.

It is just 10600nm infrared light.  There is a great deal of this in sunlight, outside the visible range.  Now, UV is outside visible range in the other side, HIGHER energy per photon than visible light, capable of causing some chemical reactions. 

10600nm IR is low energy per photon and can't do anything but deliver heat.  And none of it can get through the glass, glass and acrylic is totally opaque to 10600nm.  Let alone the steel frame.

Danny

 

 

On 5/14/2018 12:55 AM, Jose Gaytan wrote:

It is not as bad as you think, people see radiation and think cancer and deadly. There are different kinds of radiation. But before I go any further let me tell that I am not an expert and you can research a bit further yourself. Lasers can have four different kinds of radiation from Class I to Class IV. They have different kinds of purpose some are medical and illegal for the public to have and others are industrial. In a way is a bit hard to explain without going into how that light beam that you see, is produced. that would take long so look it up in google. So once you look it up the universal machine has two laser tubes (most other brands have only one) which means it shoots two beams less than a millimeter thick each (give or take 25% depending on the focus lens/a 2.5 lens I think shoot a .012mm thick beam, but don't hold me to that it has been a long time since I looked it up) in a way it does not matter since we're talking about radiation, back to the tube itself. American made lasers usually have an enclosed aluminum cased laser tube (I can't remember the trade name, Synrad??), chinese for the most part use a glass enclosed tube. So if you look at the back of the machine and open the big door you will see to long rectangular aluminum boxes and they should have the labels below. Newer models also have yellow labels on top somewhere on the lid or doors. I guess to make it short you can be exposed to radiation if you come in direct contact with the beam itself and according to the manufacturers and the government other than burns, or making you blind (if you look directly at the beam for prolonged periods), it is not that serious. Is it likely this would happen? Is very improbable as there is a safety feature that when you open the lid or door the beam automatically stops shooting from the tube and dirt or zoot around the sensors don't really impair it as they are magnetic (yeap two or more cheap magnets). So if you open the lid while the machine is running, and the beam still shooting you would be exposed to scattered radiation or residual radiation along with all the lovely fumes. Below is a little more info.  

The laser machines are equipped with a sealed carbon-dioxide (CO2) laser that emits intense and invisible laser radiation with a wavelength of 10.6 microns (10600nm) in the infrared spectrum. Laser radiation is invisible for human eyes because of the applicable wavelength.

The Infrared (invisible) laser radiation is especially dangerous for human eyes because its effect enhanced by crystalline lens focuses on the retina of eyeball. The high intensity of radiation on the retina leads to powerful localized heating and burns its tissue which causes reduction or loss of vision. Therefore working closed to the laser beam (during maintenance, positioning of optical system, repair) always protect eyes.

 

The direct, reflected and scattered laser radiation is dangerous while operating the machine. Prevent hands and body from contacts with the laser beam working area. The scattered laser radiation can burn the skin on hands. The damage degree depends on the duration of laser beam exposure. It is obliged to wear appropriate protective clothing for skin protection.

Smoke, toxic gases and particles emitted during the laser operating process can significantly damage your health and cause death. Carefully check the material safety datasheet (MSDS) and the material composition for emission of harmful substances. Provide high-quality air extraction system in the working area of laser engraver. The smoke and gassed emitted during cutting and engraving can contaminate and damage the optical lenses and mirrors.

The laser machine focus lens is made of zinc selenide (ZnSe). The focus lens is safe for health under normal operating conditions, but it requires regular inspection and cleaning. In case of damage (cracks, split, scratches, abrasion, overheating and etc.) the focus lens has to be replaced by new. Using the damaged optics can cause the emission of toxic gases and harm your health.

The toxic vapor of zinc oxide and selenium oxide is emitting while working with the damaged focus lens. Zinc selenide is toxic if inhaled or swallowed. Dust may cause irritation of eyes and respiratory system. If you find the optic is damaged, you must thoroughly ventilate the room and carefully clean the laser equipment from dirt formed due to emission of toxic vapor on the damaged optics. Contact your supplier to get more details about laser safety.

 

On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 9:48 PM, Dan DeFelippi <d...@driverdan.com> wrote:

 

Just an example in ATX you have residual radiation from the laser machines (classified as Class IV if I'm correct by OSHA), supposedly the vent system and the cabinet of the machine protect you from that; but is it really safe?

Can you expand on that? I've never heard of such a thing. How can laser cutting create radiation? And what kind of radiation do you mean?

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Jose Gaytan

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[Jose Gaytan]

You can call it what you want. You may not want to see the word radiation in here but if you read the labels, yeller ones with a red line imitating a laser beam on top, or white ones in the older models, and machine manuals, in one of the many warnings, you will see the word radiation. If you ever get a training class (most manufacturers will offer it when purchasing a new machine and most times the regional reps will throw in for free) they will tell you about it and specifically use the word radiation. If you go to trade shows if you seem interested they will tell you about it under their safety features (supposedly the plastic they use on the lid is magical). I believe they call it liability There are some people that are affected but for most as you stated is inconsequential to the human body as there is the same kind of radiation in the natural environment in sunlight. Scientifically its proven that any laser beam produces some kind of radiation. So if you think that when the beam goes off and you open the lid every single particle of that radiation goes magically away or has dissipated, by all means. Again for the most part the human body is used to handle that kind of radiation but you can not say it is not there.

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 1:56 AM, FRush <fer...@comcast.net> wrote:

Dany is right.  Radiation from the laser is of little or no consequence.  It is a commercial machine, not something built in someone’s garage following no regulations.  The fumes from the stuff being burnt in the machine are a much more serious issue.  That is why the air circulation is very important.  Always make sure the exhaust is on and keep the lid closed so it can work most effectively.

 

From: atxhs-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:atxhs-discuss@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 2:39 AM
To: atxhs-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [atxhs-discuss] Do you need pallet wood?

 

I REALLY do not like seeing the term "radiation" appear here.

It is just 10600nm infrared light.  There is a great deal of this in sunlight, outside the visible range.  Now, UV is outside visible range in the other side, HIGHER energy per photon than visible light, capable of causing some chemical reactions. 

10600nm IR is low energy per photon and can't do anything but deliver heat.  And none of it can get through the glass, glass and acrylic is totally opaque to 10600nm.  Let alone the steel frame.

Danny

 

 

On 5/14/2018 12:55 AM, Jose Gaytan wrote:

It is not as bad as you think, people see radiation and think cancer and deadly. There are different kinds of radiation. But before I go any further let me tell that I am not an expert and you can research a bit further yourself. Lasers can have four different kinds of radiation from Class I to Class IV. They have different kinds of purpose some are medical and illegal for the public to have and others are industrial. In a way is a bit hard to explain without going into how that light beam that you see, is produced. that would take long so look it up in google. So once you look it up the universal machine has two laser tubes (most other brands have only one) which means it shoots two beams less than a millimeter thick each (give or take 25% depending on the focus lens/a 2.5 lens I think shoot a .012mm thick beam, but don't hold me to that it has been a long time since I looked it up) in a way it does not matter since we're talking about radiation, back to the tube itself. American made lasers usually have an enclosed aluminum cased laser tube (I can't remember the trade name, Synrad??), chinese for the most part use a glass enclosed tube. So if you look at the back of the machine and open the big door you will see to long rectangular aluminum boxes and they should have the labels below. Newer models also have yellow labels on top somewhere on the lid or doors. I guess to make it short you can be exposed to radiation if you come in direct contact with the beam itself and according to the manufacturers and the government other than burns, or making you blind (if you look directly at the beam for prolonged periods), it is not that serious. Is it likely this would happen? Is very improbable as there is a safety feature that when you open the lid or door the beam automatically stops shooting from the tube and dirt or zoot around the sensors don't really impair it as they are magnetic (yeap two or more cheap magnets). So if you open the lid while the machine is running, and the beam still shooting you would be exposed to scattered radiation or residual radiation along with all the lovely fumes. Below is a little more info.  

The laser machines are equipped with a sealed carbon-dioxide (CO2) laser that emits intense and invisible laser radiation with a wavelength of 10.6 microns (10600nm) in the infrared spectrum. Laser radiation is invisible for human eyes because of the applicable wavelength.

The Infrared (invisible) laser radiation is especially dangerous for human eyes because its effect enhanced by crystalline lens focuses on the retina of eyeball. The high intensity of radiation on the retina leads to powerful localized heating and burns its tissue which causes reduction or loss of vision. Therefore working closed to the laser beam (during maintenance, positioning of optical system, repair) always protect eyes.

 

The direct, reflected and scattered laser radiation is dangerous while operating the machine. Prevent hands and body from contacts with the laser beam working area. The scattered laser radiation can burn the skin on hands. The damage degree depends on the duration of laser beam exposure. It is obliged to wear appropriate protective clothing for skin protection.

Smoke, toxic gases and particles emitted during the laser operating process can significantly damage your health and cause death. Carefully check the material safety datasheet (MSDS) and the material composition for emission of harmful substances. Provide high-quality air extraction system in the working area of laser engraver. The smoke and gassed emitted during cutting and engraving can contaminate and damage the optical lenses and mirrors.

The laser machine focus lens is made of zinc selenide (ZnSe). The focus lens is safe for health under normal operating conditions, but it requires regular inspection and cleaning. In case of damage (cracks, split, scratches, abrasion, overheating and etc.) the focus lens has to be replaced by new. Using the damaged optics can cause the emission of toxic gases and harm your health.

The toxic vapor of zinc oxide and selenium oxide is emitting while working with the damaged focus lens. Zinc selenide is toxic if inhaled or swallowed. Dust may cause irritation of eyes and respiratory system. If you find the optic is damaged, you must thoroughly ventilate the room and carefully clean the laser equipment from dirt formed due to emission of toxic vapor on the damaged optics. Contact your supplier to get more details about laser safety.

 

On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 9:48 PM, Dan DeFelippi <d...@driverdan.com> wrote:

 

Just an example in ATX you have residual radiation from the laser machines (classified as Class IV if I'm correct by OSHA), supposedly the vent system and the cabinet of the machine protect you from that; but is it really safe?

Can you expand on that? I've never heard of such a thing. How can laser cutting create radiation? And what kind of radiation do you mean?

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Jose Gaytan

[Jose Gaytan]

Sorry to tell you but they can be built, adherent to regulation, the parts are readily available. The Chinese are doing it, not in a garage but a little bigger building where they get the parts put them together make a metal cabinet and sell them on the internet. If you actually go to their factory some times you will be surprised, no bigger than a small house and probably only two or three people working, lol! Third world countries do it. I seen one in Brazil built by an undergrad engineer, the cabinet was made out of car rooftops, re-purposed step motors from a CNC and he would not tell me where he got the optics or lenses (probably stolen), he saved for two years to buy the tube and the exhaust fan: a blower like the one in your AC system. I can tell you that thing cut 3 mm wood stock beautifully. He sold souvenirs (refrigerator magnets) with tribal designs on the street. I left his two room house (you can probably fit it in your living room) scratching my head awed at the ingenuity and the fact that the kid would make half of what I make just peddling stuff he made on the laser on weekends.

On Mon, May 14, 2018 at 1:56 AM, FRush <fer...@comcast.net> wrote:

Dany is right.  Radiation from the laser is of little or no consequence.  It is a commercial machine, not something built in someone’s garage following no regulations.  The fumes from the stuff being burnt in the machine are a much more serious issue.  That is why the air circulation is very important.  Always make sure the exhaust is on and keep the lid closed so it can work most effectively.

 

From: atxhs-...@googlegroups.com [mailto:atxhs-discuss@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Danny Miller
Sent: Monday, May 14, 2018 2:39 AM
To: atxhs-...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [atxhs-discuss] Do you need pallet wood?

 

I REALLY do not like seeing the term "radiation" appear here.

It is just 10600nm infrared light.  There is a great deal of this in sunlight, outside the visible range.  Now, UV is outside visible range in the other side, HIGHER energy per photon than visible light, capable of causing some chemical reactions. 

10600nm IR is low energy per photon and can't do anything but deliver heat.  And none of it can get through the glass, glass and acrylic is totally opaque to 10600nm.  Let alone the steel frame.

Danny

 

 

On 5/14/2018 12:55 AM, Jose Gaytan wrote:

It is not as bad as you think, people see radiation and think cancer and deadly. There are different kinds of radiation. But before I go any further let me tell that I am not an expert and you can research a bit further yourself. Lasers can have four different kinds of radiation from Class I to Class IV. They have different kinds of purpose some are medical and illegal for the public to have and others are industrial. In a way is a bit hard to explain without going into how that light beam that you see, is produced. that would take long so look it up in google. So once you look it up the universal machine has two laser tubes (most other brands have only one) which means it shoots two beams less than a millimeter thick each (give or take 25% depending on the focus lens/a 2.5 lens I think shoot a .012mm thick beam, but don't hold me to that it has been a long time since I looked it up) in a way it does not matter since we're talking about radiation, back to the tube itself. American made lasers usually have an enclosed aluminum cased laser tube (I can't remember the trade name, Synrad??), chinese for the most part use a glass enclosed tube. So if you look at the back of the machine and open the big door you will see to long rectangular aluminum boxes and they should have the labels below. Newer models also have yellow labels on top somewhere on the lid or doors. I guess to make it short you can be exposed to radiation if you come in direct contact with the beam itself and according to the manufacturers and the government other than burns, or making you blind (if you look directly at the beam for prolonged periods), it is not that serious. Is it likely this would happen? Is very improbable as there is a safety feature that when you open the lid or door the beam automatically stops shooting from the tube and dirt or zoot around the sensors don't really impair it as they are magnetic (yeap two or more cheap magnets). So if you open the lid while the machine is running, and the beam still shooting you would be exposed to scattered radiation or residual radiation along with all the lovely fumes. Below is a little more info.  

The laser machines are equipped with a sealed carbon-dioxide (CO2) laser that emits intense and invisible laser radiation with a wavelength of 10.6 microns (10600nm) in the infrared spectrum. Laser radiation is invisible for human eyes because of the applicable wavelength.

The Infrared (invisible) laser radiation is especially dangerous for human eyes because its effect enhanced by crystalline lens focuses on the retina of eyeball. The high intensity of radiation on the retina leads to powerful localized heating and burns its tissue which causes reduction or loss of vision. Therefore working closed to the laser beam (during maintenance, positioning of optical system, repair) always protect eyes.

 

The direct, reflected and scattered laser radiation is dangerous while operating the machine. Prevent hands and body from contacts with the laser beam working area. The scattered laser radiation can burn the skin on hands. The damage degree depends on the duration of laser beam exposure. It is obliged to wear appropriate protective clothing for skin protection.

Smoke, toxic gases and particles emitted during the laser operating process can significantly damage your health and cause death. Carefully check the material safety datasheet (MSDS) and the material composition for emission of harmful substances. Provide high-quality air extraction system in the working area of laser engraver. The smoke and gassed emitted during cutting and engraving can contaminate and damage the optical lenses and mirrors.

The laser machine focus lens is made of zinc selenide (ZnSe). The focus lens is safe for health under normal operating conditions, but it requires regular inspection and cleaning. In case of damage (cracks, split, scratches, abrasion, overheating and etc.) the focus lens has to be replaced by new. Using the damaged optics can cause the emission of toxic gases and harm your health.

The toxic vapor of zinc oxide and selenium oxide is emitting while working with the damaged focus lens. Zinc selenide is toxic if inhaled or swallowed. Dust may cause irritation of eyes and respiratory system. If you find the optic is damaged, you must thoroughly ventilate the room and carefully clean the laser equipment from dirt formed due to emission of toxic vapor on the damaged optics. Contact your supplier to get more details about laser safety.

 

On Sun, May 13, 2018 at 9:48 PM, Dan DeFelippi <d...@driverdan.com> wrote:

 

Just an example in ATX you have residual radiation from the laser machines (classified as Class IV if I'm correct by OSHA), supposedly the vent system and the cabinet of the machine protect you from that; but is it really safe?

Can you expand on that? I've never heard of such a thing. How can laser cutting create radiation? And what kind of radiation do you mean?

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Jose Gaytan

[stephen.mercer]

I'm guessing the reason Danny doesn't like to see the word "radiation" here is exactly the reason you stated: "people see radiation and think cancer and deadly."
It is technically accurate to use the term radiation, but it is not helpful in any but the most extreme technical conversations to do so because of the colloquial assocations of "radiation" with "hazmat suits and bunker shelters."
Stating, "you can not say it is not there" is true, but the converse is also true: you can't really say that it is there because it isn't meaningfully there.

In fact, you abuse the term yourself when you say, "Scientifically its proven that any laser beam produces some kind of radiation." Sure, every beam produces EM radiation, but there are those that can produce a pure tone -- i.e. no radiation other than red light, or blue light, or some particular color. Those lasers are freaking expensive and not useful for cutting. You meant to say "radiation" in the sense of "parts of the EM spectrum outside the visual range". It's a slippery term, one that requires extreme care to use to avoid generating needless fear.

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Jose Gaytan

[Jose Gaytan]

I guess you can dress it any which way you want. I was not trying to instill fear on anything or anybody just bringing up a point on existent potential hazards in an industrial arts shop when someone mentioned that pallet wood has nasty dangerous chemicals. So what's next? we cannot say the word Hazard because it will still fear in people? Honestly you educate people to use the place or equipment the right way and responsibly and that should be included in the class/classes and some in the open house tour. Which reminds me, I did not notice or remember where the fire extinguishers are in the building. Oh shoot I said the word fire which can scare people because fire can be dangerous. Oh crap now I said the danger word which can also scare people. Get my point? Yes I was trying to be sarcastic and funny. You can not put convenience before safety because someone along the way will get hurt because you don't want to use specific words, you do not know every ones medical condition, who knows someone may suffer exposure to the radiation of the laser because they don't expect it to be inside (There are some medical treatments where you have to severely limit the exposure to sunlight). If I can afford it, I will wipe the housing of the lens, the exhaust housing, and the stationary lens on the left (the other lens is not easily accessible) and send it in to a spectrometer lab, and you will be surprised what is not there. Maybe there is a member that works for TSA they probably can do it quickly for free (they have to test certain amount of bags for explosives and yes I'm going to say the unspoken word again: radiation). Anyway I'm going to quit participation in this discussions and go back to my ignorant cave, I am not an expert but I can tell you I was a safety officer in Navy two years, four in the Army as Industrial Hygiene (same thing just more staff added), I ran the Fort Hood Wood-shop for three and a half years where I gave countless safety classes as well as passed many, many OSHA/Safety/Fire inspections, and yes I operated laser machines (Epilog & Universal) for over five years and in that time took the "new Machine" class every year (yes they get a new machine every year) where I can assure you the word radiation is mentioned several times during the safety and health hazards part and once again several times during the maintenance part which is rather quick at the end. Again you train people to use the equipment responsibly using the right terminology not hide behind convenience so they don't get scared. I can tell you I'm still scared of the router and miter saw to this day and have been using them since 1983 but I still have all my fingers and or appendices. Damn! now is bothering me, are there any fire extinguishers anywhere in ATX?

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[Stephen Loftus-Mercer]

Just once I would like to highlight how the tech people on this list can better talk to the non-tech people without the reply being some damn slippery slope fallacy. Bridging that communication gap has been my job for the last 17 years, and I really would like to help, but I can't do it if you parody my advice. When you respond with "well, if X is true then this absurdity must also be true," and the absurdity obviously isn't true, then maybe take a moment to consider whether there's a subtlety that you're missing. The person who wrote X didn't likely do so intending the absurdity, so you probably missed the point. That's not just about this discussion... it applies to any discussion where you want to apply a slippery slope argument. Unless you're a politician deliberately trying to paint your opponent as an idiot, don't try the absurd slippery slope defense. Save it those arguments for when there really is a slippery slope. 

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[Robert Shaver]

I'd just like to call for more paragraphs to improve the readability of these large blocks of text. If you want to be understood, add some white-space to your messages.