ErgoDox PCB thread

[Jon Kelly]

My inquiry thread has started to snowball, so it's time for a new more structured thread.

We are making ErgoDox! There's a group buy being organized - if we hit 100 boards (2 per keyboard set) we can get them printed for 10 bucks each.

Current List of Boards:

Me (Jon)           4 

Matt M             4

Chris M            3

Paul                 4

Dustin              6

Tim                  4

Colin                4

Clio                  1 (2?)

Reddit so far     4

Current total: 34

We need to set up a way to collect money from people so that we can include the internet. I have a thread going on /r/MechanicalKeyboards for interest but I think I'll get more response from a place that collects money and will deliver. Any suggestions? please note Kickstarter/indiegogo/etc will increase the cost because they take a %

[Tim Fredlund]

Tim is 3.

Tim Fredlund | @ethosrot | #tc

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[Jon Kelly]

Woops, thanks!

[Clio Dunn]

Yeas, two!

[Jon Kelly]

corrected list:

Me (Jon)           4 

Matt M             4

Chris M            3

Paul                 4

Dustin              6

Tim                  3

Colin                4

Clio                  2

Reddit so far     4

Current total: 34

[Jeffrey Cicolani]

Is this per set or per board? If I say 1, does that mean the 2 boards needed to make a keyboard set or is it 1 board for 1/2 a keyboard? You say "100 boards (2 per keyboard set)", so I'm just looking for clarification. Because it sounds like we would just need to hit 50 sets.

Jeffrey Cicolani
See my most recent geekiness at www.cicolanistudios.com

"Power to the people powerful enough to crush the other people" Joss Whedon

"Always be yourself... unless you suck." Joss Whedon

[Paul Bonser]

Per board. Some people want different numbers of boards for experimentation reasons, hence the 3s in there.

Paul Bonser | http://probablyprogramming.com | @pib

[Jon Kelly]

I'm listing per board, 1 keyboard = 2 boards

[Brandon Wiley]

Sounds cool, but how much do the boards cost?

[Jon Kelly]

if we reach 100 boards, 10 dollars a board

[Jon Kelly]

From Paul - 

I got the quote from goldphoenix:

QTY: 10 pcs USD33.6050/pcs;  Subtotal: USD336.05; 5 Days

QTY: 20 pcs USD22.9031/pcs;  Subtotal: USD458.06; 6 Days

QTY: 30 pcs USD18.1640/pcs;  Subtotal: USD544.92; 6 Days

QTY: 40 pcs USD14.7790/pcs;  Subtotal: USD591.16; 7 Days

QTY: 50 pcs USD13.0646/pcs;  Subtotal: USD653.23; 7 Days

QTY: 100 pcs USD9.5200/pcs;  Subtotal: USD952.00; 8 Days

[Martin Bogomolni]

What is the total BOM for an ergodox, if we hit the 100pc quantity?   The Boards will come out to ~$20.  How much are the rest of the materials needed to complete one keyboard?  One of my co-workers has one, with the bottom and top layers of the case laser cut from bamboo.  It's very pretty, and after typing on it for an hour I liked it.

I would like to build one.

-M

[Jon Kelly]

Depending on your choice of keys and key caps it can vary. Also case materials.

I think we're going to be coming in around 110-120 total.

[Martin Bogomolni]

Okay, put me in for one, and I'll use it at the office ... (and show off something cool made at the hackerspace .. I'll etch the logo on the top)

-M

[Martin Bogomolni]

( Er, put me in for TWO .. TWO boards.  I've been paying attention. )

-M

[Martin Bogomolni]

Jon, would it be okay to cross-post this to the TXRX, Dallas Makerspace, 10BitWorks, Noisebridge, Ace Monster Toys, and Hack Manhattan lists?   

-M

[Martin Bogomolni]

Jon, if you want I can set this up on our shopify page.    http://store.atxhs.org

Once 100 orders come in, you can do the PCB production run.     I just need a blurb to put on the page, as well as a picture of the PCB's.  

-M

[Brandon Wiley]

Killer price. I'm in for 1 set of 2 boards.

[Miller Hooks]

If I had a couple days to get my designs together I'd order a few. Having it on the store would be neat so I could show my associates something other than my inbox.

[Miller Hooks]

Shit, I forgot this was for your project, I thought it was about ordering personal boards. Sorry for the spam.

[Miller Hooks]

Put me down for 4. If you use the store, I'll put the cash in. Currently I'm using a laser cut wood keyboard that I hate so much.

[Jedimasterbc]

I was down for a set. (2 boards) - Vincent

[Jon Kelly]

It is a personal project but everyone is welcome. Please do cross-post :) We might have to work together to ship the stuff out :D

[Jon Kelly]

Oh and the order form needs an option for shipping, speaking of.

[Jon Kelly]

Working with Martin right now to get the order form going; what should be the cut off? Paul can you contact  the manufacturer and ask what their output could be in say, 15 days/2 weeks? that should be our cut off I think.

[Jon Kelly]

Paging Paul: I'm getting the options set up for shipping/boards.

Can you check if the tax is included in the price of the boards? and do they ship them out for free/can we pick them up?

I want to make sure we got the right price before I start collecting cash.

[Paul Bonser]

In the quote email they said "Lead Time: 5 - 8 Business Days + 3 Business Days Shipping"

I put the quote in my shopping cart and there was nothing there about shipping, so I'm thinking shipping is included.

I sent an email to the sales person who gave me the quote just to be sure.

[Paul Bonser]

Yes, that price includes shipping!

[Jon Kelly]

fantastic!

[Jon Kelly]

Order form is now open! Please submit your orders here: http://store.atxhs.org/products/ergodox

[Martin Bogomolni]

In for 2 boards, and it let me test the Paypal integration.   

I will be transferring Paypal payments every couple days, to insure against PayPal doing Nasty Things (tm).   If you can, please try to pay with a credit/debit card.   It will save us in fees.

-M

[Paul Bonser]

It might be worth noting that the actual boards will be green solder mask and white silkscreen, as opposed to the blue on the store picture.

[Tim Fredlund]

Uhhh, coin integration kplz? How else am I going to drop some Ðoge on some of these sweet PCBs.

No, I'm joking. Please don't.

Tim Fredlund | @ethosrot | #tc

[Dustin Silverman]

Actually it has bitcoin as an option on the checkout page. Seems cool.

[Jedimasterbc]

I've never used the store page. I think it's quite nice. Also 3 boards aww yis.

[Paul Bonser]

How are we actually going to handle paying for the order? Are we collecting the money in the HS bank account and then paying for the order from there?

[Martin Bogomolni]

* bow * thank you.   I had to look a long time before I settled on shopify.  They have the right mix of features.

-M

[Martin Bogomolni]

Yes.   Once we have enough orders, either I can place the order directly, or I can cut a check to whomever is responsible for placing the order.

-M

[Jon Kelly]

Haha, look at this ridiculous ergonomic ergodox prototype, using alps - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4A1Iy5dyws 

[Matt C.M.]

Can we exempt the system from collecting taxes on the order, this isn't really a purchase from a retailer, and we aren't paying tax on the board order since its coming from outside the state.

[Martin Bogomolni]

Nope, unfortunately Shopify doesn't support setting different tax rates for different items.   It's one of the limitations of the platform.   

-M

On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 10:51 AM, Matt C.M. <mcma...@gmail.com> wrote:

Can we exempt the system from collecting taxes on the order, this isn't really a purchase from a retailer, and we aren't paying tax on the board order since its coming from outside the state.

--

[Martin Bogomolni]

I'll see if I might be able to hack something using the "variants" options available in Shopify.

-M

[Martin Bogomolni]

I just made an edit to the item, which should have the effect of turning on sales tax for that item.

Now, we -are- re-selling an item through the ATX Hackerspace website.  Even though it's a group buy, the act of putting together via consignment through the website makes a difference.   We have to turn in a sales tax report every quarter.   There is a chance this will be flagged as a taxable item, since consignment sales are considered taxable in TX. 

-M

[Martin Bogomolni]

Turning sales tax -off- for that item, rather.

-M

[Jon Kelly]

to be honest the small amount of tax will probably be needed when it comes down to shipping minus the percentage that's getting cut.... should have thought of that.

[Tim Fredlund]

Now, we -are- re-selling an item through the ATX Hackerspace website. 

While I think the shopping cart is pretty, this is a serious limitation, because we're not actually re-selling anything. We are bending the site to facilitate a group purchase by a group of individuals, and the hackerspace itself won't even be placing the order. If this is a limitation at all, we should not use shopify for these types of fundraisers in the future, and use it only for true hackerspace-to-individual transactions.

At absolute best, the space is being used as a form of escrow system, but that does not a taxable purchase make.

Tim Fredlund | @ethosrot | #tc

[Martin Bogomolni]

Yep, which is why I was comfortable setting the item non-taxable.

-M

[Jon Kelly]

Not sure on who all purchased the matias switches, but mine are pending a tracking number :) they should be here by next weekend! Something to solder while demo-ing :D

[Chris McLaughlin]

3 paid for.

[Jon Kelly]

Regarding alps switches, we will need to figure out a mounting plate for them. A few people in the various threads that I've posted on this mentioned it; apparently alps cannot be directly mounted to the PCB without some special structure for support.

[Matt C.M.]

hot glue?

[Jon Kelly]

That is an option XD

On Fri, Aug 1, 2014 at 2:22 PM, Matt C.M. <mcma...@gmail.com> wrote:

hot glue?

[EricU]

Yes, 4 boards, just paid.

[Paul Bonser]

So if I'm going to place the order for this, it would save us money all around to have me not actually pay through the store, I suppose. If that's the plan, just add a +4 to whatever the current number is and that'll save us a little on card fees.

On Thu, Jul 31, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Martin Bogomolni <marti...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Martin Bogomolni]

Sure.  

-M

[Jon Kelly]

Paul (or anyone else for that matter) there was a question regarding the PCB file. Does the default ergodox schematic come with holes for PCB mounted Cherry stabilizers with the 2x keys in the thumb cluster?

I have no way of opening the current PCB; Also, while looking at alps capability I believe I found a design (maybe just for switch if not whole ergodox) that is universal to any switch type and included those features.

[Paul Bonser]

This is a top view of the file.

​The gray and yellow circles are drills, so I'm assuming the yellow onces in each key are the stabilizer ones?

[Jon Kelly]

thanks, I posted it to the reddit thread, hopefully the guy who was asking can chime in.

[Jon Kelly]

Exactly what the guy was looking for, awesome, ty.

[Jon Kelly]

With the 4 that Paul intends to buy, we're sitting at 58 boards accounted for so far. I've marketed them to as many different groups as I could think of (two keyboard sub reddits, geekhack's message board, 10 bit works, and of course us). If you planned on jumping in on this group buy, now is the time. If you know anyone who might be interested, let them know!

I'm surprised it is taking this long, to be honest. I hoped we would have reached 100 by now, but hopefully with a little nudge we can reach that by the end of this week.

[Jon Kelly]

Bump - we need more participants! It's a great opportunity to learn to surface mount solder by hand. I finished a full keyboard worth (80) surface mount diodes in only a few hours. I had essentially never done surface mount before this.

[Martin Bogomolni]

In for 2 more. 

-M

[hr]

IS this PCB the original design or is it the one mechanicalkeyboards.com uses that has the slightly changed holes for the PCB mount stabilizers for the 2X thumb keys? http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=61233.0

Also, if people want to use the ALPS keys, the board needs the holes to be slightly modified, or you have to bend the legs a bit on each switch.

http://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=57927.0

[Paul Bonser]

The PCB I got the quote for was the one from ergodox.org.

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[hr]

Unfortunately, I have no idea where to look and see if that design has any of the mods done to it since the original version...  I suppose the thing to do is go with the plate mount stabilizers, which pretty much have to be glued to the acrylic top plate.  The PCB mount type would have been nice.

[Paul Bonser]

As long as a modified version was backward compatible so people who wanted to just use the standard cherry keyswitches or whatnot, I don't see why we couldn't make the order with a modified version. It shouldn't impact the quote at all unless the modified version was so far off from the original with smaller traces or something.

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 11:18 AM, hr <h...@atxhs.org> wrote:

Unfortunately, I have no idea where to look and see if that design has any of the mods done to it since the original version...  I suppose the thing to do is go with the plate mount stabilizers, which pretty much have to be glued to the acrylic top plate.  The PCB mount type would have been nice.

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[hr]

AFAIK it was holes drilled and a few of the SMD resistors shifted slightly so they weren't under them.  no idea where to find the specifics of mods though.

[Jon Kelly]

I'm not sure the difference in pins is anything more than negligible. From what I was looking at (having the board and switches in hand) it looks like everything will line up properly as long as you have a framing plate with the right sized holes cut. I intend to check it out sometime this week/end and cut a framing plate once the laser is fully functional again.

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 11:52 AM, hr <h...@atxhs.org> wrote:

AFAIK it was holes drilled and a few of the SMD resistors shifted slightly so they weren't under them.  no idea where to find the specifics of mods though.

[Matt C.M.]

What the thread I linked said was they ended up a bit twisted, and there may be a bit of shifting needed for the double size keys in the thumb area.  Not sure if it really matters though since the alps switches don't have the plastic pegs like the cherry ones.

[Tim Fredlund]

Wait, for clarity, are we talking about changing out the PCBs money has been placed down on, or modifying the ones advertised to work with ALPS post-delivery?

Mostly because I'm in the Cherry MX lot and I'd rather not go for something potentially inferior.  If that's not a concern, don't mind me, I just want to be on the same page.

Tim Fredlund | @ethosrot | #tc

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:03 PM, Matt C.M. <mcma...@gmail.com> wrote:

What the thread I linked said was they ended up a bit twisted, and there may be a bit of shifting needed for the double size keys in the thumb area.  Not sure if it really matters though since the alps switches don't have the plastic pegs like the cherry ones.

[Martin Bogomolni]

I also have already bought Cherry MX Clear switches, and want to make sure they go in straight and true...

-M

[Jon Kelly]

The mod that's out there is extremely minor and would not affect cherry switch users at all. If we did do it, it would only widen the post holes for the top pin vertically. Nothing will be compromised in the event of a modification.

[Matt C.M.]

No effect on cherry switch mounting since they locate using the plastic pegs and not the solder points.

[Martin Bogomolni]

Hey all..

The order is up to 89 boards.  Just 11 more boards, and Jon/Paul can put the order together.  

-M

On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Matt C.M. <mcma...@gmail.com> wrote:

No effect on cherry switch mounting since they locate using the plastic pegs and not the solder points.

--

[Andy Howell]

The only reason I might be interested in this is if it can connect to an old PS2 (round)
connector. I have a KVM switch that pre-dates USB. I've tried a USB to PS2 dongle thingy
to connect a USB keyboard to it, but that don't work.

Is this USB only?

On 08/13/2014 09:23 PM, Martin Bogomolni wrote:
>
> Hey all..
>
> The order is up to 89 boards. Just 11 more boards, and Jon/Paul can put the order together.
>
> -M
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Matt C.M. <mcma...@gmail.com
> <mailto:mcma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> No effect on cherry switch mounting since they locate using the plastic pegs and not
> the solder points.
>
> --
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[Paul Bonser]

I don't know if anyone has implemented ps/2 support for the ergodox specifically, but it could definitely be done. Ps/2 is 5 volt serial, and microcontrollers are good at that...

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[Andy Howell]

Paul,

Ah, so it is: https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_libs_PS2Keyboard.html

Ok, please put me down for 4 boards.

Thanks,

Andy

On 08/14/2014 07:28 AM, Paul Bonser wrote:
> I don't know if anyone has implemented ps/2 support for the ergodox specifically, but it
> could definitely be done. Ps/2 is 5 volt serial, and microcontrollers are good at that...
>

> On Aug 13, 2014 11:47 PM, "Andy Howell" <an...@gamubaru.com <mailto:an...@gamubaru.com>> wrote:
>
> The only reason I might be interested in this is if it can connect to an old PS2 (round)
> connector. I have a KVM switch that pre-dates USB. I've tried a USB to PS2 dongle thingy
> to connect a USB keyboard to it, but that don't work.
>
> Is this USB only?
>
> On 08/13/2014 09:23 PM, Martin Bogomolni wrote:
> >
> > Hey all..
> >
> > The order is up to 89 boards. Just 11 more boards, and Jon/Paul can put the order
> together.
> >
> > -M
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Matt C.M. <mcma...@gmail.com
> <mailto:mcma...@gmail.com>

> > <mailto:mcma...@gmail.com <mailto:mcma...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
> >
> > No effect on cherry switch mounting since they locate using the plastic pegs and not
> > the solder points.
> >
> > --
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[Andy Howell]

Paid for 4.

[Jon Kelly]

There's a handful of guides out there for using the teensy to convert ps/2 to usb, so I'm positive you can support ps/2

Paid for 4.

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[Andy Howell]

Jon,

I don't want to convert to USB, I need the keyboard to have a PS/2 interface. There are
dongles that are supposed to convert a USB keyboard to a PS/2 one, but they do not work
with my ancient KVM switch.

At some point I should just replace the KVM. I looked before for one that supports 8
ports, does USB and PS/2 AND is cheap :) No luck.

On 08/14/2014 09:58 AM, Jon Kelly wrote:
> There's a handful of guides out there for using the teensy to convert ps/2 to usb, so I'm
> positive you can support ps/2
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 8:31 AM, Andy Howell <an...@gamubaru.com
> <mailto:an...@gamubaru.com>> wrote:
>
> Paid for 4.
>
> On 08/14/2014 07:50 AM, Andy Howell wrote:
> > Paul,
> >
> > Ah, so it is: https://www.pjrc.com/teensy/td_libs_PS2Keyboard.html
> >
> > Ok, please put me down for 4 boards.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Andy
> >
> > On 08/14/2014 07:28 AM, Paul Bonser wrote:
> >> I don't know if anyone has implemented ps/2 support for the ergodox specifically,
> but it
> >> could definitely be done. Ps/2 is 5 volt serial, and microcontrollers are good at
> that...
> >>
> >> On Aug 13, 2014 11:47 PM, "Andy Howell" <an...@gamubaru.com

> >> <mailto:atxhs-discuss%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
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> >> <mailto:atxhs-discuss%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com
> <mailto:atxhs-discuss%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>>.

[Jon Kelly]

The point being that if it can handle ps/2 input it can handle ps/2 output. I understood your plan :)

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[Brandon Wiley]

I just ordered 2 more because I discovered that there is alternative firmware for the Ergodox that adds n-key rollover so that you can use it with Plover. There are special flat keycap toppers for this so that you can press down more than one key at a time with a single finger. I'm not sure if I'd want to use those every day, so I figured why not just build two keyboards? So just one more reason to get in on the group buy if you're into that kind of thing.

[Jon Kelly]

How many people were waiting and placing the order with cash directly?

We might be at 100, I need to do some math :D

[Martin Bogomolni]

AFAIK, we are now at 95 boards.    91 on the store, plus 4 for Paul

-M

[Jon Kelly]

Only 5 boards left till we hit 100, any takers?

[Andy Howell]

Hmm, I would have thought it would be an even number. Did someone only order 1?

On 08/15/2014 11:58 AM, Jon Kelly wrote:
> Only 5 boards left till we hit 100, any takers?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 3:00 PM, Martin Bogomolni <marti...@gmail.com
> <mailto:marti...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> AFAIK, we are now at 95 boards. 91 on the store, plus 4 for Paul
>
> -M
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 2:55 PM, Jon Kelly <insi...@gmail.com
> <mailto:insi...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> How many people were waiting and placing the order with cash directly?
>
> We might be at 100, I need to do some math :D
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Brandon Wiley <bra...@blanu.net
> <mailto:bra...@blanu.net>> wrote:
>
> I just ordered 2 more because I discovered that there is alternative firmware

> <https://gist.github.com/nelstrom/11232558> for the Ergodox that adds n-key
> rollover so that you can use it with Plover <http://plover.stenoknight.com/>.

> There are special flat keycap toppers

> <http://plover.deco-craft.com/shop/view_product/Laser_Cut_Steno_Keys_Kit?n=2910988>

> for this so that you can press down more than one key at a time with a single
> finger. I'm not sure if I'd want to use those every day, so I figured why not
> just build two keyboards? So just one more reason to get in on the group buy
> if you're into that kind of thing.
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 9:23 PM, Martin Bogomolni <marti...@gmail.com
> <mailto:marti...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Hey all..
>
> The order is up to 89 boards. Just 11 more boards, and Jon/Paul can put
> the order together.
>
> -M
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 1:15 PM, Matt C.M. <mcma...@gmail.com
> <mailto:mcma...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> No effect on cherry switch mounting since they locate using the
> plastic pegs and not the solder points.
>
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[Chris McLaughlin]

Several of us have ordered odd numbers. I myself got 3.

I plan to make a pair into a true keyboard and use the 3rd to tinker with trying to make a gaming keypad :)

[Andy Howell]

Ah, had not thought of using one as a game pad. I thought someone might be disappointed
when the had only half a keyboard :)

[Chris McLaughlin]

Yea that would suck!

AFAIK people have been monitoring the thread pretty good to make sure everyone got at least 2.

[Thomas Elrod]

+2

Put in an order for a set.

-Elrod

-Elrod

On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Chris McLaughlin <daet...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yea that would suck!

AFAIK people have been monitoring the thread pretty good to make sure everyone got at least 2.

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[Clio Dunn]

I'm in the store.atxhs.org to get the ErgoDox PCB, 2 of them. But it's saying it will be shipped to my billing address. I'd like to know if I just continue through the menu system, or if I'm in the wrong location for the joint order.

This is why I like paying cash. :)

[Clio Dunn]

Okay! Next step says "local pickup". So I'm in, it would seem. :)

[Paul Stiverson]

Sorry to dredge up such an old thread. I built three of these keyboards after the first order, but I really wish I had built four. Does anybody have any of their boards sitting around unused? Are you willing to part with them?

-paul

[Martin Bogomolni]

Sure do.   You may need to resolder the keys on one side

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[Weston]

At the risk of being justifiably flamed for blatant thread-jacking, does anyone have an IBM Model M Esc keycap of which they'd like to be rid?

[Jon Kelly]

if no one local has them you can source them for fairly cheap over here: http://clickykeyboards.com/product-category/original-ibm-model-m-replacement-key-caps/

On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Weston <bigman...@gmail.com> wrote:

At the risk of being justifiably flamed for blatant thread-jacking, does anyone have an IBM Model M Esc keycap of which they'd like to be rid?

[Martin Bogomolni]

Okay, went and looked in the "project closet"

I have two sets of ErgoDox -- one is 1/2 assembled, the other is fully 'virgin' and unassembled.  

-M

On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 4:23 AM Jon Kelly <insi...@gmail.com> wrote:

if no one local has them you can source them for fairly cheap over here: http://clickykeyboards.com/product-category/original-ibm-model-m-replacement-key-caps/

On Sat, Sep 3, 2016 at 12:04 AM, Weston <bigman...@gmail.com> wrote:

At the risk of being justifiably flamed for blatant thread-jacking, does anyone have an IBM Model M Esc keycap of which they'd like to be rid?

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[pa...@thismatters.net]

I'll take the bare boards! When can I meet you (presumably at the space) to buy them from you?

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[Martin Bogomolni]

I'll email you privately with details.

-M