Mental Illness & Religion Don't Mix

[Neil Kelsey]

"WINNIPEG, Manitoba - A Canadian judge ruled Thursday that a man
accused of beheading and cannibalizing a fellow Greyhound bus
passenger is not criminally responsible due to mental illness.

The decision means Chinese immigrant Vince Li will be treated in a
mental institution instead of going to prison. The victim's family
dismissed the trial as a "rubber stamp" that allows Li to get away
with murder.

The judge said Li should not be held criminally accountable for
stabbing Tim McLean dozens of times last July and dismembering his
body while horrified passengers fled. Both the prosecution and the
defense had also argued Li can't be held responsible because he is
mentally ill.


Justice John Scurfield said Li's attack was "grotesque" and "barbaric"
but "strongly suggestive of a mental disorder."

"He did not appreciate the actions he committed were morally wrong. He
believed he was acting in self-defense," Scurfield said.

Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
evil."

At what point do the religious bear some responsibility for acts like
these (and they are countless)? Instead of recognizing mentally ill
people for what they are and steering them towards proper treatment,
it often turns out that their religious peers (who know they are
troubled) treat them with prayer and provoke them into dangerous
episodes. I have a schizophrenic sister who is an atheist, and she is
gentle as a lamb - I'm not saying her example can be applied to
everyone, but I am sure that keeping schizophrenics et al away from
psychologists because the religious regard psychology as "quackery" is
a huge mistake, and is costing innocent lives.

[philosophy]

Good question - I think there is another aspect as well -
at what point do we say that we as a society believe that mental
illness is no excuse for that sort of behaviour?

[philosophy]

Sorry Neil - pressed the button too soon.
There are many people in our society who suffer with
mental illness, who do know right from wrong, and who
don't cause problems for others, who are sometimes
medicated to help them. Many of these sufferers are
contributing members of society, and should be
supported by society in return.
Religious nutters who justify their actions of violence
based on their religious beliefs should be looked after
by the churches they belong to ie their medical
expenses should be paid for by their church.

[rappoccio]

Huge agreement here. Very often, the mentally ill are mistaken for
some "prophet" or as some communication with "God", when in fact, they
are just having paranoid delusions. This happens all the time. Very
often, these types are diagnosed as having said mental illness, but
then upon that diagnosis, just claim absurdities like psychiatry isn't
science and other such nonsense, since they can't accept they have a
mental illness.

[Cormagh]

This is just one more case available, which helps us to understand the
religious roots of psycopathy and schizophrenia. Placing the financial
burden of mental illness and wars on the institutions that foster
religious delusion is one way we can place the blame squarely where it
lies.

Regards,
Cormagh

[Trance Gemini]

On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Neil Kelsey <neil_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

"WINNIPEG, Manitoba - A Canadian judge ruled Thursday that a man
accused of beheading and cannibalizing a fellow Greyhound bus
passenger is not criminally responsible due to mental illness.

 

I wouldn't have a problem with this If there was a requirement that he remain in a mental hospital.

 

Unfortunately all it would take is one shrink to say he can be released and off he goes.

 

The decision means Chinese immigrant Vince Li will be treated in a
mental institution instead of going to prison. The victim's family
dismissed the trial as a "rubber stamp" that allows Li to get away
with murder.

The judge said Li should not be held criminally accountable for
stabbing Tim McLean dozens of times last July and dismembering his
body while horrified passengers fled. Both the prosecution and the
defense had also argued Li can't be held responsible because he is
mentally ill.


Justice John Scurfield said Li's attack was "grotesque" and "barbaric"
but "strongly suggestive of a mental disorder."

"He did not appreciate the actions he committed were morally wrong. He
believed he was acting in self-defense," Scurfield said.

Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
evil."

At what point do the religious bear some responsibility for acts like
these (and they are countless)? Instead of recognizing mentally ill
people for what they are and steering them towards proper treatment,
it often turns out that their religious peers (who know they are
troubled) treat them with prayer and provoke them into dangerous
episodes.

 

Yes. This is a serious problem.

 

I have a schizophrenic sister who is an atheist, and she is
gentle as a lamb - I'm not saying her example can be applied to
everyone, but I am sure that keeping schizophrenics et al away from
psychologists because the religious regard psychology as "quackery" is
a huge mistake, and is costing innocent lives.

 

I agree! Your sister is probably doing well because she has proper psychiatric care and has probably had it on a regular basis.

 

Most schizophrenics are gentle, especially when they are receiving proper treatment.

 

It's when the psychosis and delusions kick in that they can become dangerous. Proper mental health care can prevent this.

 

--
Witchy Woman, AvC Anti-Spam Brigade. AA Wolf Pack Member #7
"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion." --Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865), (attributed)

[Medusa]

On Mar 5, 1:50 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "WINNIPEG, Manitoba - A Canadian judge ruled Thursday that a man
> accused of beheading and cannibalizing a fellow Greyhound bus
> passenger is not criminally responsible due to mental illness.
>
> The decision means Chinese immigrant Vince Li will be treated in a
> mental institution instead of going to prison. The victim's family
> dismissed the trial as a "rubber stamp" that allows Li to get away
> with murder.

In Illinois, this man would be convicted of "guilty, but mentally
ill." He would be sent to a secure mental institution for treatment.
Should he later be judged by the doctors at the facility to have
recovered, he would then be sent to prison.

I believe this would be civilized justice.

Medusa

[gousaphe]

Maybe you should tell us too that a Canadian brain study has also
shown that believers have less stress than non-believers. This
finding, honestly, laid the blame for mental illness squarely at the
feet of the secularized society.
This ain't about someone's opinion of psychology.

[Dev]

Isn't saying mental illness and religion don't mix kind of like saying
gin and gin don't mix?

Anyway, seriously. You don't need a degree in psychology to see the
stupid double-standards here. The only rational way to come to terms
with shit like this is to acknowledge that anyone with a religion is
mentally unstable. Nobody has drawn a clear line between "religious"
and "nuts", and nobody ever will, because it's impossible. It's an
issue of pragmatism. We can't institutionalize everyone who believes
in God, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about it honestly.

On Mar 5, 12:50 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Trance Gemini]

That's exactly the way it should be.

 

If someone is well enough to be released they are well enough to be held accountable for their actions and go to prison.

 

 

Medusa

[Trance Gemini]

On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 7:55 PM, gousaphe <dangd...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Maybe you should tell us too that a Canadian brain study has also
shown that believers have less stress than non-believers. This
finding, honestly, laid the blame for mental illness squarely at the
feet of the secularized society.
This ain't about someone's opinion of psychology.

 

How do you explain this:

 

http://home.comcast.net/~pobrien48/serial_killers.htm

 

"The FBI gave the standard profile of a serial killer, He is a person with few friends. He became much more religious just before he started murdering people. After reading all the available studies I could find and studying all the articles in the newspapers for over 30 years, I find what is most outstanding is Serial killers were sexually inhibited by their strong religious upbringing.

Nearly all serial killers are very devout men who were raised by members of Pentecostal sects, fundamentalist Catholics or were 'hard-shell' Baptists and Methodists."

Studies after study show serial killers are a product of this environment, not genetics."

[lori]

What stops a mentally ill person from going to the doctor...
maybe it's people who don't understand mental illness???

[Medusa]

On Mar 5, 7:15 pm, lori <w0315...@selu.edu> wrote:

> What stops a mentally ill person from going to the doctor...
> maybe it's people who don't understand mental illness???

The seriously mentally ill usually do not believe there is anything
wrong with themselves.

Medusa

[Harvy Brans]

> Isn't saying mental illness and religion don't mix kind of like saying
> gin and gin don't mix?
>

Maybe there are actually atheists in the church, who are kind and
altruistic, and take it upon themselves to look after the
"flock" (sick people), and who don't mind being deceptive and living a
lie. Then it's more like gin and tonic with quinine. No seriously.

>
> Anyway, seriously. You don't need a degree in psychology to see the
> stupid double-standards here. The only rational way to come to terms
> with shit like this is to acknowledge that anyone with a religion is
> mentally unstable. Nobody has drawn a clear line between "religious"
> and "nuts", and nobody ever will, because it's impossible. It's an
> issue of pragmatism. We can't institutionalize everyone who believes
> in God, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about it honestly.
>

They have already been institutionalized--in a church. It's where they
belong. It's just too bad, we on the outside cannot confine them
there.
>
Harvy

> > a huge mistake, and is costing innocent lives.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Lori Puissegur]

of course
but that's not a religious issue
 
 
> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 17:28:41 -0800
> Subject: [AvC] Re: Mental Illness & Religion Don't Mix
> From: Medus...@yahoo.com
> To: Atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com

[Timothy 1:4a]

Joe's Child of Light in Maine seems to be a case in point.

[kenandkids]

i would personally say that one causes the other. it is entirely up
for debate which. lol

On Mar 5, 5:05 pm, Dev <thedevil...@fastmail.fm> wrote:

[Max]

Neil,

Problem is that the more 'moderate' religious won't act against their
more rabid brethren I'm afraid. I mean, if some religious parents are
granted the 'right' to withdraw life saving medical assistance to
their children, and the authorities subsequently accede to that
request, then what hope is there for any court to make the religious
contingently responsible for their 'influence' with the mentally
imbalanced?

And you know that the god nutters will simply claim the guy was nuts
(now there's the pot calling the kettle black) and 'of course' the
nutjob in question didn't hear from god at all. I mean how
preposterous does that sound!

It was Satan.......

Max

[dead kennedy]

sorry for being so glib in a serious thread but IMO, the only
difference between a prophet and a schizophrenic is a following.

[Nicole]

This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
heinous crime?

The argument against religion is entrenched on this thread with
complete lack of persective so I don't expect to change peoples minds
but I feel the notion that religious belief is a form of mental
illness is utterly ridiculous and risible.

When a clinically ill person, suffering from the altered state of
reality and multiple personalities of schizophrenia, murders and
cannibalises someone in a terrfiying frenzied attack only to later
cite their reason as 'God told me to do it' and you then accept their
(ill) reasoning as justification for murder this undermines the medics
who diagnosed him and undermines the ongoing trials of science into
neurobiology (the study of cell circuits within the nervous sytem
which control and regulate behaviour) and another key strand-genetics
and hereditary factors through natural selection.

Religion may or may not have been his motivation (religion is entirely
without substance and therefore becomes redundant to the matter) but
we do know he was a schizophrenic and this makes his illness the alpha
and omega of his actions and I also support the decision that he
cannot be held accountable, I find it troubling that any of you would
contest that he should be held to full account since you think the God
excuse could only be made a devious Christian with a get-out clause.

The point is not about religion here, it's about mental health and how
it can spiral into such barbaric deeds which in turn perpetuate the
stigma around such illnesses. What this man did wasn't because of a
conviction in God, it was because he is mentally ill, a diagnosed
schizophrenic out-patient, claiming to hear voices is a prime symptom
of schizoprenia and when you have to weigh up the motives for such a
crime the illness will take a natural precedence above religious
excuses because religion is completely bankrupt of any power in the
realms of criminal law, medical authority or public protection all of
which are implied and of an actual priority to this case.

Some of the effects that schizophrenia sufferers deal with are a
higher suicide and substance abuse rate, a 10-12 year lower life
expectancy and long-term unemployment, poverty and homelessness.
Religion is markedly different to mental health (which falls under the
domain of science-not religion) and the argument that religion is
involved in such crimes is aiming below the belt.

[rappoccio]

I'm inclined to agree.

[kenandkids]

while your moral outrage is evident, i think that your premise is
faulty. when a person suffers mental illness as a christian they are
sainted, when a secular human has a mental illness we are imprisoned.

> When a clinically ill person, suffering from the altered state of
> reality and multiple personalities of schizophrenia, murders

>..... someone in a terrfiying frenzied attack only to later

> cite their reason as 'God told me to do it' and you then accept their
> (ill) reasoning as justification for murder this undermines the medics
> who diagnosed him and undermines the ongoing trials of science into
> neurobiology (the study of cell circuits within the nervous sytem
> which control and regulate behaviour) and another key strand-genetics
> and hereditary factors through natural selection.

this is a great passage and describes the majority of figures in the
bible. how about joan of arc? quite possibly the most famous
schizophrenic in history. but of course these people are holy and not
diseased, i submit again that, in regards to mental illness and
religion, one causes the other.

On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> heinous crime?
>
> The argument against religion is entrenched on this thread with
> complete lack of persective so I don't expect to change peoples minds
> but I feel the notion that religious belief is a form of mental
> illness is utterly ridiculous and risible.
>

>

[Neil Kelsey]

On Mar 6, 7:31 am, kenandkids <kenandk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> while your moral outrage is evident, i think that your premise is
> faulty. when a person suffers mental illness as a christian they are
> sainted, when a secular human has a mental illness we are imprisoned.
>
> > When a clinically ill person, suffering from the altered state of
> > reality and multiple personalities of schizophrenia, murders
> >..... someone in a terrfiying frenzied attack only to later
> > cite their reason as 'God told me to do it' and you then accept their
> > (ill) reasoning as justification for murder this undermines the medics
> > who diagnosed him and undermines the ongoing trials of science into
> > neurobiology (the study of cell circuits within the nervous sytem
> > which control and regulate behaviour) and another key strand-genetics
> > and hereditary factors through natural selection.
>
> this is a great passage and describes the majority of figures in the
> bible. how about joan of arc? quite possibly the most famous
> schizophrenic in history.

Joan's good, but I'm leaning towards Jesus himself - thought he was
God, heard voices, had enough charisma to trigger a self-fulfilling
conspiracy against him. If he existed I am convinced he was
schizophrenic. So I will amend the title of this thread: Mental
Illness & Religion & Charisma is a lethal combination.

> but of course these people are holy and not
> diseased, i submit again that, in regards to mental illness and
> religion, one causes the other.

I differentiate between genetic disorders and acquired ones.
Schizophrenia is obviously genetic, at least it is to me (and
researchers), having observed it (both siblings and a grandfather, a
co-worker who murdered 5 members of his family because the Bible
instructed him to do so, plus all the news stories like the one above
in which their motivation is eerily familiar - they weren't all raised
by the same mother, after all. And I was raised by the same mother as
my siblings, and I simply don't have this devastating condition, thank
some non-existent deity PBUI). I'm saying religion can only make this
particular pre-existing mental illness worse, given that religion
feeds someone who is already hallucinating wildly a false world vision
that places them into a one-to-one relationship with the most powerful
entity imaginable (emphasis on imaginable). So I don't think religion
causes schizophrenia (or psychopathy). But I do think all religious
belief has at least some neurotic basis (i.e. no religious belief is
based on reality).

[Neil Kelsey]

On Mar 6, 7:00 am, rappoccio <rappoc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm inclined to agree.

Got a link to this?

> > > mental illness.- Hide quoted text -

[flying gorilla]

Believing a comforting lie will surely relieve stress for some people.
That doesn't change the lie into the truth.

[Clint]

Nell,

Religion is a mental illness.

[Answer_42]

On Mar 5, 2:50 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> "WINNIPEG, Manitoba - A Canadian judge ruled Thursday that a man
> accused of beheading and cannibalizing a fellow Greyhound bus
> passenger is not criminally responsible due to mental illness.

<snip>

I thought your post was about Joe...

By the way, whatever happened to him?
Have not seen him around lately...


By the way, religion and mental illness sure mix... One is a mild case
of the other...
___________________________________________
It is morally as bad not to care whether a thing is true or not, so
long as it makes you feel good, as it not to care how you got your
money as long as you have got it.
-- Edwin Way Teale

[Answer_42]

On Mar 5, 8:37 pm, Lori Puissegur <lpuisse...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> of course
> but that's not a religious issue

It is when you have religious delusions but claim that those delusions
are instances of a god giving you direct access to some divine
knowledge through a holy spirit of some sort...

[Harvy Brans]

> This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> heinous crime?
>

You're right. There are just as many crazy atheist people. That is why
atheism is included as a paranoid delusional theme in the DSM
reference. No wait, that's a religious delusional theme. Or maybe if
they have no religious delusional theme, we can assume that the crazy
person is then an atheist. But I'm not a doctor, let's ask one.
"Hello, is there a doctor in house?"
>
Harvy

>
On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

> > a huge mistake, and is costing innocent lives.- Hide quoted text -

[Dev]

How is religious faith not a mental illness in and of itself?

[Lori Puissegur]

I was commenting on the 'religious peer' part
(treating with prayer)
not all 'religious' think medication, psychology,  and mental illness are quacky
many speak out and advocate for mental illnes and proper treatment 
prayer, of course, may come into play with religious organizations or faith followers
I do understand where you are coming from
-also, if you are a Christian, the belief- once you accept Christ as your Savior, He dwells in you-(your spirit of course)  

 
> Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 11:32:19 -0800

> Subject: [AvC] Re: Mental Illness & Religion Don't Mix

> From: ipu.be...@gmail.com
> To: Atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com

[Max]

Glib away DK. I agree wholeheartedly

Max

[Bob Crowley]

You may remember the "Vampire Murder" in Brisbane some years ago when
four young women, who had all been involved with witchcraft, nearly
decapitated a man they lured him down the riverbank, and then drank
his blood.

The leader was diagnosed with schizophrenia. But I note that at one
stage a psychatrist interviewing her got a hell of a shock when her
voice suddenly dropped to a gravel bass, and declared "I'm Big
Tracey!!" Tracey was her name by the way. At the same time he almost
felt himself propelled against the wall behind him.

I haven't got much doubt she had schizophrenia. But I also haven't
got much doubt that in her case there was also a spiritual
connnection. She'd been fooling around with witchcraft. And what
about the other three who as far as I know were not diagnosed with
schizophrenia?

I"m not saying that schizophrenia is always spiritual. It's a very
complex and troubling illness. But like drug taking, fooling around
with witchcraft can help to bring it on.

Every well trained exorcist always sends someone for psychiatric
treatment first. But when, in the words of one priest, "You've got
someone floating around the ceiling, you know you've got more on your
hands than a psychological condition."



On Mar 6, 6:03 am, philosophy <smwil...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
> Good question - I think there is another aspect as well -
> at what point do we say that we as a society believe that mental
> illness is no excuse for that sort of behaviour?

[LJL]

On Mar 6, 12:37 pm, Dev <thedevil...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> How is religious faith not a mental illness in and of itself?

LL: The DSM seems to take the position that if a lot of people have
the same delusion, it's not a delusion. I think the DSM is written by
believers!

************************************

[gousaphe]

It was written that man shall not live by bread alone but with every
word that comes out of the mouth of God.

[Harvy Brans]

> It was written that man shall not live by bread alone but with every
> word that comes out of the mouth of God.
>

Jesus was a rebel, not a suck-up. He suffered martyrdom, and is the
archetype for a martyr. And "God" represents vengence. Judgement day
is coming. The bible was written by revolutionaries. So keep preaching
it, by all means. Why do you think the common folk keep his word
sacred, and the "powers-that-be" continually try to hijack it? These
are principles of human nature. Keep feeding the fires!
>
Harvy

[hucktunes]

One of Europe and the Near East's oldest religions was the Dionysian
cults. Many times the adherents were overcome by such enthusiasm that
they ripped innocent passersby to shreds with there bare hands or any
weapons at hand, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysian_Mysteries.
Christianity resembles this old religion more so than any other. Jesus
is Dionysus. The name is the same, they eat his flesh, and they drink
his blood.

On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

[Nicole]

This is an orgy or frenzy by intoxication through Bacchal wine or
chewing ivy leaves as a form of spirtual high but they did NOT rip
people apart, they ripped goats and fawns apart with their bare hands
and ate the meat, usually it would be a bull that they'd knaw with
their teeth in a wild shreiking frenzy, part of it was also a 'dancing
dervish' where the'd dress up as the God Dionysus play wind
instruments and dance a fitful delirious dance trying to evoke the
spirit of the Dion within themselves and all of this behaviour was a
form of communion.

There are some behavioural phenomenons such as people dancing wildly
to the point of exhaustion even in recent times one example being in
France for no apparent reason, Glastonbury is also I think imbued with
some spiritual folk traditions maybe even Ibiza it depends what music
you identify with and I'm sure there are many other traditional
congregational acts with no specific religious purpose-just purely the
act of coming together and celebrating, uniting, bonding all with the
same 'highs' of the ancient pagan rituals only by drugs and drink now.

Schizophrenia is markedly different, it's isolating for one thing and
the madness of it is wholly unpleasant for all concerned, it's not to
be sought out or wished for, it's feared, marginalised, avoided, taboo
v. different from religion and completely different from spiritual
communion.

Saints don't cannibalise, most of them were important political
figures or were motivated by the politics and law of their day (for
the good), heroes and revolutionaries were victims not murderers, if
you believe Joan of Arc did exist then this was a young girl who led
an army and turned the tide of war lifting a siege in 9 days with
stragetic genius and helped re-establish the French monarchy by
putting Charles VII (who never intervened in her trail) back on the
throne. At 19 she was tried in a heavily biased court, she was
supposed to be held in an ecclesiastical prison but was sent to a
secular one and executed aged 19 charged with heresy but was already
prounced innocent by Pope Callixtus.

There is a difference between being a murderer for an personal,
irrational reason like Vince Li (at the terror of other Christians, no
doubt) and trying to liberate through political warfare like Joan who
has also hugely enriched culture and culture has never been spread
peacefully. Religion just isn't substantial enough to hold the blame
and as for religion making mental illness worse this is absurd, relig
is an optional belief, not indoctrinated so much as already existing
since the dawn of man, schizophrenia is a neurological disease (tho
I'm not sure of it is classed as a disease) but it is a fault in the
circuitry of the brain. Belief (given the relaxed, mostly lapsed
attitude of most Christians his could be called contemplation of
spiritual ideas rather than an unswerving conviction in God) is not
comparable to an actual defect within the processes of the brain.

On 7 Mar, 07:00, hucktunes <bob.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> One of Europe and the Near East's oldest religions was the Dionysian
> cults. Many times the adherents were overcome by such enthusiasm that
> they ripped innocent passersby to shreds with there bare hands or any

> weapons at hand,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysian_Mysteries.

[Neil Kelsey]

On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

> This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> heinous crime?

Didn't you read the article? Didn't you read the title of this thread?

"Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
evil."

The prosecution, the defense, and I all agree, and the judge ruled,
that it was a COMBINATION of schizophrenia and religion that caused
him to commit this crime.

> The argument against religion is entrenched on this thread with
> complete lack of persective so I don't expect to change peoples minds
> but I feel the notion that religious belief is a form of mental
> illness is utterly ridiculous and risible.

That's fine, because that's not what I said, genius. Although I would
say that all religious belief is at least delusional, which is
neurotic.

> When a clinically ill person, suffering from the altered state of
> reality and multiple personalities of schizophrenia, murders and
> cannibalises someone in a terrfiying frenzied attack only to later
> cite their reason as 'God told me to do it' and you then accept their
> (ill) reasoning as justification for murder this undermines the medics
> who diagnosed him and undermines the ongoing trials of science into
> neurobiology (the study of cell circuits within the nervous sytem
> which control and regulate behaviour) and another key strand-genetics
> and hereditary factors through natural selection.

Since I said it was a combination of the two (schizophrenia and
religion) you can save your indignation. What I did question, however,
is how much responisibility their religious peers should take, since
there are countless incidents like this in which mentally ill people
don't get competent help because they are being insulated by people
who would rather treat them with prayers and exorcisms. I maintain
that religious "care" only exacerbates the problem.

> Religion may or may not have been his motivation (religion is entirely
> without substance and therefore becomes redundant to the matter)

Religion is not without substance - if you have a disease of the mind,
and you are being fed a diseased thoughts like those found in
Christianity, of course the problem will get worse.

And of course religion was his motivation - God was telling him that
the guy on the bus was going to kill him. God told him to get on the
bus. God told him to kill a guy in a truck the previous night (the
truck driver fortunately drove off, without knowing what God had
planned for him). If this schizophrenic had no concept of God, or
understood that the concept of God was ludicrous, then he would not
have killed anyone because God told him to.

> but
> we do know he was a schizophrenic and this makes his illness the alpha
> and omega of his actions

Wrong. It was a combination of schizophrenia and religion.

> and I also support the decision that he
> cannot be held accountable,

So do I.

> I find it troubling that any of you would
> contest that he should be held to full account since you think the God
> excuse could only be made a devious Christian with a get-out clause.

I didn't say that, did I, genius?

> The point is not about religion here, it's about mental health and how
> it can spiral into such barbaric deeds which in turn perpetuate the
> stigma around such illnesses.

Wrong. The point IS about religion, combined with mental illness, and
how the religious peers of people like this fail to recognize the
situation for what it is, and how they may exacerbate the situation by
treating it with more religion.

> What this man did wasn't because of a
> conviction in God, it was because he is mentally ill, a diagnosed
> schizophrenic out-patient,

Again. He did this because of schizophrenia combined with religion.
And he wasn't diagnosed as a schizophrenic until the trial. Why are
you making stuff up about me and about the case?

> claiming to hear voices is a prime symptom
> of schizoprenia and when you have to weigh up the motives for such a
> crime the illness will take a natural precedence above religious
> excuses because religion is completely bankrupt of any power in the
> realms of criminal law, medical authority or public protection all of
> which are implied and of an actual priority to this case.

Strawman. You are certainly not arguing with anything I said.

> Some of the effects that schizophrenia sufferers deal with are a
> higher suicide and substance abuse rate, a 10-12 year lower life
> expectancy and long-term unemployment, poverty and homelessness.
> Religion is markedly different to mental health (which falls under the
> domain of science-not religion) and the argument that religion is
> involved in such crimes is aiming below the belt.

Here, let me quote from the article again:

"Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
evil."

I think it's pointless for you to argue that God has nothing to do
with religion.

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Neil Kelsey <neil_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:

> This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> heinous crime?

Didn't you read the article? Didn't you read the title of this thread?

"Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
evil."

The prosecution, the defense, and I all agree, and the judge ruled,
that it was a COMBINATION of schizophrenia and religion that caused
him to commit this crime.

 

Liar said:

> The argument against religion is entrenched on this thread with
> complete lack of persective so I don't expect to change peoples minds
> but I feel the notion that religious belief is a form of mental
> illness is utterly ridiculous and risible.

Neil said:

That's fine, because that's not what I said, genius. Although I would
say that all religious belief is at least delusional, which is
neurotic.

 

Trance said:

 

Further to the above point, you might find this study interesting Neil.

 

It evaluates the existence of delusion in the non-clinical population. (people who are not considered clinically mentally ill but are considered delusional).

 

"Delusions have long been considered a hallmark of psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia. However, delusions may only be most visibly present in psychotic conditions and could also occur in nonclinical groups. The aim of this review is to establish whether delusions, as traditionally considered and assessed in psychiatric conditions, are also present in individuals without a psychiatric or neurologic condition.

 

Clear evidence is found that the rate of delusional beliefs in the general population is higher than the rate of psychotic disorders and that delusions occur in individuals without psychosis. The frequency of delusional beliefs in nonclinical populations varies according to the content of the delusion studied and the characteristics of the sample population.

 

***

 

There is convincing evidence that delusional ideation, delusions, and clinically severe delusions are related experiences. Information about clinical delusions can therefore be obtained by studying delusional ideation in nonclinical populations. "

 

http://www.springerlink.com/content/k2g2522123871261/

[Nicole]

I respect your opinion but something isn't right in the way you put
religion and mental illness together, it's a strange and ruinous
amalgamation of irreconcilable things!

I'm not in any way defending the actions of Mr. Vince Li to redeem
religion because as far as I am concerned if it's bad it ain't the
true definition of religion but it's important to isolate one factor
from another.

I hope you don't think religion is akin to mental illness, with all
due respect I am not totally convinced that you really believe
religion endows mental illness and is the catalist between a life long
undetectable ill-mind and uncontrolled mania like Jekyll & Hyde.

On 7 Mar, 14:28, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> > misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> > belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> > heinous crime?
>
> Didn't you read the article? Didn't you read the title of this thread?

***Actually no I didn't, I read another article about it in the
Telegraph but I will read it, it's on the first page of this thread***

>
> "Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> evil."

***But if you believe God has a consistant character (unless it's the
character that Dawkins lists in the opening of Chapter 2 of The God
Delusion 'The God Hypothesis') then in no way does he encourage murder
of the most savage kind and the 'force for evil' sounds like a line
from Star Wars***

>
> The prosecution, the defense, and I all agree, and the judge ruled,
> that it was a COMBINATION of schizophrenia and religion that caused
> him to commit this crime.
>
> > The argument against religion is entrenched on this thread with
> > complete lack of persective so I don't expect to change peoples minds
> > but I feel the notion that religious belief is a form of mental
> > illness is utterly ridiculous and risible.
>
> That's fine, because that's not what I said, genius. Although I would
> say that all religious belief is at least delusional, which is
> neurotic.

***Well there you have deduced the same conclusion that religion,
being delusional is therefore neurotic which means an inclination to
negative emotional states (but that does not necesaarily affect
rational thought)***

>
> > When a clinically ill person, suffering from the altered state of
> > reality and multiple personalities of schizophrenia, murders and
> > cannibalises someone in a terrfiying frenzied attack only to later
> > cite their reason as 'God told me to do it' and you then accept their
> > (ill) reasoning as justification for murder this undermines the medics
> > who diagnosed him and undermines the ongoing trials of science into
> > neurobiology (the study of cell circuits within the nervous sytem
> > which control and regulate behaviour) and another key strand-genetics
> > and hereditary factors through natural selection.
>
> Since I said it was a combination of the two (schizophrenia and
> religion) you can save your indignation. What I did question, however,
> is how much responisibility their religious peers should take, since
> there are countless incidents like this in which mentally ill people
> don't get competent help because they are being insulated by people
> who would rather treat them with prayers and exorcisms. I maintain
> that religious "care" only exacerbates the problem.

***I don't know how where to begin addressing this last paragraph,
this idea of prayer completely usurping medical science or this case,
psychological treatment is wrong and you know it, nobody that I (or
undoubtedly-you or anyone) know of who calls themself a Christian
would supplant the stringent, tested and proven methods of science
with prayer, discreet prayer may well go alongside medical care but it
would never, ever replace it.

Religion, by it's v.nature is so mysterious that sometimes the only
way to give it some evidence is through the wicked end times, the
defiant cries of a suicide bomber, the pleas of a burning heretic, the
shell-shock of a holy war but prayer is one example of a small
countless gesture of good will which can't be inverted into bad,
however you look at it. No Christian would force a patients palms
together and as for exorcisms, they are the preserve of the wealthy
who think they have poltergeists, you are basically saying that a
schizophrenic person would be 'treated' by a priest or monk exorcist
to banish evil spirits from the afflicted person? Do YOU even believe
that? If you see them in the Yellow Pages they'll specialise in houses
not people and since they have been banned by the R.C Church, they'll
be fakes too***
>

***Besides religion is a community and chances are, being human BEFORE
we are religious, the spiritual community would not welcome a clearly
unhinged person or sit next to him on the pews, are we immune to
natural fear? and what is there to pray for when an innocent man has
been decapitated and the man, Mr. Li has pocketed his tongue, nose and
ear. Don't we pray for victims-not crims-anyway?***

> > Religion may or may not have been his motivation (religion is entirely
> > without substance and therefore becomes redundant to the matter)
>
> Religion is not without substance - if you have a disease of the mind,
> and you are being fed a diseased thoughts like those found in
> Christianity, of course the problem will get worse.

***Religion is not a diseased thought(s), it's a belief and beliefs
are v.general and constantly varying things***

>
> And of course religion was his motivation - God was telling him that
> the guy on the bus was going to kill him. God told him to get on the
> bus. God told him to kill a guy in a truck the previous night (the
> truck driver fortunately drove off, without knowing what God had
> planned for him). If this schizophrenic had no concept of God, or
> understood that the concept of God was ludicrous, then he would not
> have killed anyone because God told him to.

***You probably don't mean to but you've just repeatedly asserted
God's existance, in an attempt to underline your point of belief in
God being the clinching motivation in an unsettled mind you've
technically reinstated God "God was telling him" "God told him" etc,
I'm not trying to mock you but this is one curious feature of atheism,
when Dawkins describes God as "Jealous and proud of it, a petty,
unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthristy ethnic
cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, genocidal' etc, etc. All
those words are supporting the idea of a vengeful God, but a God
nonetheless just as war is chalked up to religious stupidity and
atheists claim it goes against the teachings of a God we are supposed
to obey and thus reinstate, redress, correct a Godless act***

>
> > but
> > we do know he was a schizophrenic and this makes his illness the alpha
> > and omega of his actions
>
> Wrong. It was a combination of schizophrenia and religion.

***Religion is a concept, just a concept. Blaming religion for a
schizophrenic fit is like blaming society or some other collective
buzz word***

>
> > and I also support the decision that he
> > cannot be held accountable,
>
> So do I.
>
> > I find it troubling that any of you would
> > contest that he should be held to full account since you think the God
> > excuse could only be made a devious Christian with a get-out clause.
>
> I didn't say that, did I, genius?
>
> > The point is not about religion here, it's about mental health and how
> > it can spiral into such barbaric deeds which in turn perpetuate the
> > stigma around such illnesses.
>
> Wrong. The point IS about religion, combined with mental illness, and
> how the religious peers of people like this fail to recognize the
> situation for what it is, and how they may exacerbate the situation by
> treating it with more religion.

***Religion is not a treatment, it is customary to pray for a needy
person but that doesn't compromise or interfere with any actual
treatment they may recieve. Instead of suggesting that Vince Li was
mollycoddled by the Christians of his community and that when his odd
behaviour raised suspicions he was taken back into the fold and simply
told to pray harder to oust 'voices' or praised when he heard 'God's
voice' doesn't it seem more likely that this man was a loner and that
the religious community of no set place but a Canadian Highway journey
at night (perhaps the reflections of the passengers in the windows in
the darkness was enough to disorientate him) had no responsibility or
guilty party in the fenzied murder, Mr. Li also believed the body
would come back to life and begged police officers to kill him***

>
> > What this man did wasn't because of a
> > conviction in God, it was because he is mentally ill, a diagnosed
> > schizophrenic out-patient,
>
> Again. He did this because of schizophrenia combined with religion.
> And he wasn't diagnosed as a schizophrenic until the trial. Why are
> you making stuff up about me and about the case?

***I'm not trying to make stuff up about you or distort what you said,
but I would like to know HOW religion played a role in this, you've
already said religion exacerbates mental illness but when you say it
was a combination of schizophrenia and religion how is the religious
half responsible exactly? How does religion avert real medical care?
***

>
> > claiming to hear voices is a prime symptom
> > of schizoprenia and when you have to weigh up the motives for such a
> > crime the illness will take a natural precedence above religious
> > excuses because religion is completely bankrupt of any power in the
> > realms of criminal law, medical authority or public protection all of
> > which are implied and of an actual priority to this case.
>
> Strawman. You are certainly not arguing with anything I said.

***I can see why you said strawman but I mean that in the realms of
criminal law, medical authority and public protection the words 'God
made me do it' ain't worth shit***

>
> > Some of the effects that schizophrenia sufferers deal with are a
> > higher suicide and substance abuse rate, a 10-12 year lower life
> > expectancy and long-term unemployment, poverty and homelessness.
> > Religion is markedly different to mental health (which falls under the
> > domain of science-not religion) and the argument that religion is
> > involved in such crimes is aiming below the belt.
>
> Here, let me quote from the article again:
>
> "Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> evil."
>
> I think it's pointless for you to argue that God has nothing to do
> with religion.
>

> ***I see your point BUT God and religion can actually be deemed as seperate things YES God and religion are lock and key but if you read The Dawkins Delusion by Alaister McGrath (a brilliant book) then you'll see that belief in God can be seperate from following a religion, Madonna is a famous example of a woman who believes in God but rejects religious dogma altogether and I KNOW Mr. Li does not represent the views of most Christians so even if he did combine a faithin God with an active religious life in the community I doubt that same community will ever welcome him back***

***This argument is bordering on the ridiculous, do you really happen
to have a sister who is a schizophrenic who is also an atheist and
'meek as a lamb'? I'd hate to think you were lying just to prove how
hateful religion and all it's devotees are. I don't want to accuse you
of lying but I find it v.hard to believe that your sister is a
schizophrenic, a self identified athiest and that her overall
behabiour is 'meek' but if this is true you'd be in a better position
to see that if someone prayed for her it wouldn't create force field
around her that no health pratictioner could penetrate, would it? So
how is religion detrimental to mentally ill people? If a mentally ill
person is left untreated but still embraced by the Christian community
then I would still blame the health authorities and the patients G.P
for failing to refer them to a proffessional because it's a health
issue***
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Timothy 1:4a]

On Mar 7, 8:16 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
<snip a little clip>

> ...if

> you believe Joan of Arc did exist then this was a young girl who led
> an army and turned the tide of war lifting a siege in 9 days with

> stragetic genius...

I just want to say I affirm that the existence and military exploits
of Jeanne d'Arc are reliably historical, although we don't know what
she looked like and there could be some tall tales about her (as there
are about George Washington).

Atheists frequently raise doubts about the existence of story tale
characters like Noah, Jonah and Job. Then even raise doubts about
probably-historical characters with only a few sources to vouch for
them, including Jesus himself. But there's no reason to doubt the
existence of every religious person in history.

[Nicole]

She lived in the 15th century of well documented French history, given
the religious nature of her conquests it's relatively recent and
verifiable from many sources, I also noticed there is no surviving
portrait of her that she sat for but the more I read about her life
the more convincing it becomes, the monarchy's involvement and the
details of her biased trail are well recorded and the fact they may
have been altered to damage her rep and that some of her more poignant
remarks have been lifted for biographical plays add even more 'proof'
to the existance of this legendary young woman but I must admit I
didn't think she existed for real either at first

[Timothy 1:4a]

On Mar 7, 12:58 pm, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> She lived in the 15th century of well documented French history, given
> the religious nature of her conquests it's relatively recent and
> verifiable from many sources,

Agreed.

> I also noticed there is no surviving
> portrait of her that she sat for but the more I read about her life
> the more convincing it becomes, the monarchy's involvement and the
> details of her biased trail are well recorded and the fact they may
> have been altered to damage her rep and that some of her more poignant
> remarks have been lifted for biographical plays add even more 'proof'
> to the existance of this legendary young woman but I must admit I
> didn't think she existed for real either at first

Interesting, I wonder how many people think she is legendary (i.e., of
dubious historicity) like King Arthur or Robin Hood. The evidence is
solid. It would be like doubting Christopher Columbus.

On the other hand, she identified the voices she heard as Michael the
Archangel, Catherine of Alexandria and Margaret of Antioch. No one
outside the Abrahamic religions believes in archangels, and there is
no historical evidence for Catherine or Margaret. As far as we know
Catherine was just a character in a novel, and the Catholic Church
removed her feast day from their universal calendar of saints in 1969.
Pope Gelasius I declared Margaret to be a fictional character way back
in 494, so the fact that she was still worshiped by Catholics 1000
years later -- and has over 250 churches in England today -- tells you
sobering things about the reliability of religious history.

[Neil Kelsey]

On Mar 7, 8:39 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> I respect your opinion but something isn't right in the way you put
> religion and mental illness together, it's a strange and ruinous
> amalgamation of irreconcilable things!

I am not putting religion and mental illness together - it is simply a
fact that there are mentally ill people (schizophrenics, psychopaths,
manic depressives, sociopaths) who are also religious.

> I'm not in any way defending the actions of Mr. Vince Li to redeem
> religion

But you are distancing the actions of Mr. Li to disassociate him from
religion to redeem religion.

> because as far as I am concerned if it's bad it ain't the
> true definition of religion but it's important to isolate one factor
> from another.

The true definition of religion, in this sense, is belief in a
supernatural deity. Mr Li had this belief and he believed God was
instructing him to decapitate and cannibalize this poor kid.

> I hope you don't think religion is akin to mental illness,

I will say this loud and clear, with the dim hope that you will read
it for comprehension: I think/know mental illnesses like schizophrenic
are genetic. People are not born religious, so religion is not
genetic. So, religion is not akin to mental illness. But religion is a
meme that can mimic mental illness, in that it puts a believer out of
touch with reality. But I think (from firsthand observations) that
there is a qualitative difference between the genetic version of being
out of touch and the acquired version of being out of touch.

> with all
> due respect I am not totally convinced that you really believe
> religion endows mental illness

Good for you, BECAUSE I NEVER SAID THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Do you go
through life with people yelling at you a lot?

> and is the catalist between a life long
> undetectable ill-mind and uncontrolled mania like Jekyll & Hyde.

That is several galaxies away from what I think or what I said. You
really need English comprehension lessons.

> On 7 Mar, 14:28, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> > > misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> > > belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> > > heinous crime?
>
> > Didn't you read the article? Didn't you read the title of this thread?
>
> ***Actually no I didn't, I read another article about it in the
> Telegraph but I will read it, it's on the first page of this thread***

Then isn't there a lesson in here somewhere for you? As in, "don't
speak out your ass?"

> > "Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> > responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> > God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> > evil."
>
> ***But if you believe God has a consistant character (unless it's the
> character that Dawkins lists in the opening of Chapter 2 of The God
> Delusion 'The God Hypothesis') then in no way does he encourage murder
> of the most savage kind and the 'force for evil' sounds like a line
> from Star Wars***

Hey. Genius. I am an atheist. I LACK BELIEF THAT GOD EXISTS. Just
because I seem to have to connect the dots for you, that means that I
don't think God has any character at all, beyond that of a fictional
(FICTIONAL) character in a book of fiction (FICTION). And if you read
the book of fiction called the Bible, the God character DOES encourage
murder (and he condemns it too, just so the Believer has the entire
smorgasboard of justifications at his disposal), so a schizophrenic
CAN read the Bible and acquire a voice that says "I am God, decapitate
and eat that guy."

> > The prosecution, the defense, and I all agree, and the judge ruled,
> > that it was a COMBINATION of schizophrenia and religion that caused
> > him to commit this crime.

Why didn't you comment on this?

> > > The argument against religion is entrenched on this thread with
> > > complete lack of persective so I don't expect to change peoples minds
> > > but I feel the notion that religious belief is a form of mental
> > > illness is utterly ridiculous and risible.
>
> > That's fine, because that's not what I said, genius. Although I would
> > say that all religious belief is at least delusional, which is
> > neurotic.
>
> ***Well there you have deduced the same conclusion that religion,
> being delusional is therefore neurotic which means an inclination to
> negative emotional states (but that does not necesaarily affect
> rational thought)***

Did I say that delusion is an "inclanation to negative emotional
states?" Did I? Where?

You REALLY need to look up what a Strawman argument is, and try to
understand what it means, because you commit this fallacy on a
constant basis, and it makes you appear stupid and dishonest. Is that
what you're aiming for?

> > > When a clinically ill person, suffering from the altered state of
> > > reality and multiple personalities of schizophrenia, murders and
> > > cannibalises someone in a terrfiying frenzied attack only to later
> > > cite their reason as 'God told me to do it' and you then accept their
> > > (ill) reasoning as justification for murder this undermines the medics
> > > who diagnosed him and undermines the ongoing trials of science into
> > > neurobiology (the study of cell circuits within the nervous sytem
> > > which control and regulate behaviour) and another key strand-genetics
> > > and hereditary factors through natural selection.
>
> > Since I said it was a combination of the two (schizophrenia and
> > religion) you can save your indignation. What I did question, however,
> > is how much responisibility their religious peers should take, since
> > there are countless incidents like this in which mentally ill people
> > don't get competent help because they are being insulated by people
> > who would rather treat them with prayers and exorcisms. I maintain
> > that religious "care" only exacerbates the problem.
>
> ***I don't know how where to begin addressing this last paragraph,
> this idea of prayer completely usurping medical science or this case,

I did not say that prayer usurped medical science. It doesn't. But
many many many religious people think it does. Have you not ever heard
the countless number of religious people say through the media that
psychology is evil/dangerous/quackery? When all psychology is is the
study of the mind? How about Tom Cruise, for example? How about Joe
the Catholic? I hear this same protest from the religious all the
time.

> psychological treatment is wrong and you know it,

Hey. Don't pretend to speak for me. The relgious discourage, avoid,
and condemn psychological treatment by default. There are of course
many exceptions, and in this modern age of communications it is pretty
hard to maintain that prayer and exorcisms work, but nevertheless,
this belief is still widespread.

> nobody that I (or
> undoubtedly-you or anyone) know of who calls themself a Christian
> would supplant the stringent, tested and proven methods of science
> with prayer, discreet prayer may well go alongside medical care but it
> would never, ever replace it.

Do not ever speak for me, you're not qualified.

In fact, there are people I know/have known that call themselves
religious (including Christians) who use medical care as a last
resort, and even when they do, attribute any benefits received from
the medical care to God. You are living in some fantasy world.

>  Religion, by it's v.nature is so mysterious

Religion is not mysterious. At all. There is no evidence that God
exists, so the stories are simply untrue. Religion is there to fulfill
the neurotic needs and alleviate the neurotic fears of gullible
wishful thinkers, and it is there as a tool for the more predatory
amongst us to prey upon these gullible dupes. But there's nothing
mysterious about it.

> that sometimes the only
> way to give it some evidence is through the wicked end times,

That's not evidence that God exists.

> the defiant cries of a suicide bomber,

That's not evidence that God exists.

> the pleas of a burning heretic,

That's not evidence that God exists.

> the shell-shock of a holy war

That's not evidence that God exists.

> but prayer is one example of a small
> countless gesture of good will which can't be inverted into bad,
> however you look at it.

If someone needs medical treatment for their escalating schizophrenic
episodes and they are prevented from getting it because they are
surrounded by people who think prayer is the best treatment, then
prayer is bad. The very best you can say about prayer is that it is
pointless.

> No Christian would force a patients palms
> together and as for exorcisms,

Christians regularly do just that. But I was talking about the
instances of how people who could seek professional help on behalf of
the afflicted (who are in no condition to seek help themselves)
instead avoid getting professional help and instead pray for the
afflicted.

> they are the preserve of the wealthy
> who think they have poltergeists, you are basically saying that a
> schizophrenic person would be 'treated' by a priest or monk exorcist
> to banish evil spirits from the afflicted person? Do YOU even believe
> that? If you see them in the Yellow Pages they'll specialise in houses
> not people and since they have been banned by the R.C Church, they'll
> be fakes too***

Why didn't Mr Li get professional help then?

> ***Besides religion is a community and chances are, being human BEFORE
> we are religious, the spiritual community would not welcome a clearly
> unhinged person or sit next to him on the pews,

I've seen this movie before. What usually happens is that the
religious try prayer, and when that doesn't work (and it never does,
since prayer is at best ineffectual) the "loving spiritual community"
boots the person and their desparate immediate loved ones out of the
church to fend for themselves. I know he wasn't schizophrenic, but
take Ted Haggard for example. His "loving spiritual community" was
awfully quick to throw him under the bus when he became an
inconvenience to them.

> are we immune to
> natural fear? and what is there to pray for when an innocent man has
> been decapitated and the man, Mr. Li has pocketed his tongue, nose and
> ear.

Yeah, it's a little late by then, isn't it? This is exactly what I'm
saying. If his social group had not been generally religiously
superstitious, and instead understood about real mental illnesses and
their symptoms, then a) this might not have happened in the first
place, because religion and mental illness don't mix, and b) it might
not have happened because he would have received proper treatment
because he was surrounded by rational people.

> Don't we pray for victims-not crims-anyway?***

I don't pray, period.

> > > Religion may or may not have been his motivation (religion is entirely
> > > without substance and therefore becomes redundant to the matter)
>
> > Religion is not without substance - if you have a disease of the mind,
> > and you are being fed a diseased thoughts like those found in
> > Christianity, of course the problem will get worse.
>
> ***Religion is not a diseased thought(s), it's a belief and beliefs
> are v.general and constantly varying things***

Mental illness is being out of touch with reality, mental illness is a
disease, and being religious is a voluntary form of being out of touch
with reality, therefore being religious volunteering to be diseased.
Unless you were indoctrinated into religion as a child, in which case
the disease was forced upon you. I think, though, that once you reach
adulthood you are responsible for shedding the religious disease.

> > And of course religion was his motivation - God was telling him that
> > the guy on the bus was going to kill him. God told him to get on the
> > bus. God told him to kill a guy in a truck the previous night (the
> > truck driver fortunately drove off, without knowing what God had
> > planned for him). If this schizophrenic had no concept of God, or
> > understood that the concept of God was ludicrous, then he would not
> > have killed anyone because God told him to.
>
> ***You probably don't mean to but you've just repeatedly asserted
> God's existance,

You probably don't mean it but when you talk about atheism you are
repeatedly asserting God's non-existence.

Is there any way you can control yourself from making stupid
arguments? Please?

> in an attempt to underline your point of belief in
> God being the clinching motivation in an unsettled mind you've
> technically reinstated God "God was telling him" "God told him" etc,
> I'm not trying to mock you but this is one curious feature of atheism,
> when Dawkins describes God as "Jealous and proud of it, a petty,
> unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthristy ethnic
> cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, genocidal' etc, etc. All
> those words are supporting the idea of a vengeful God, but a God
> nonetheless just as war is chalked up to religious stupidity and
> atheists claim it goes against the teachings of a God we are supposed
> to obey and thus reinstate, redress, correct a Godless act***
>
>
>
> > > but
> > > we do know he was a schizophrenic and this makes his illness the alpha
> > > and omega of his actions
>
> > Wrong. It was a combination of schizophrenia and religion.
>
> ***Religion is a concept, just a concept.

No it isn't. Religion is the belief in a supernatural deity.

> Blaming religion for a
> schizophrenic fit is like blaming society or some other collective
> buzz word***

But I DIDN'T BLAME RELIGION FOR A SCHIZOPHRENIC FIT. A schizophrenic
is going to be schizophrenic no matter what. But I AM saying that when
you combine religion with schizophrenia you've put a hallucinating
person in touch with an inner voice that tells them they are in
contact with the supreme being in the universe who is jealous and
vengeful, and that is a potentially lethal combination. IF the
schizophrenic has an inner voice saying "you are in touch with a
fluffy white cloud" then I can't imagine a fluffy white cloud is going
to tell them to kill and eat someone.

> > > and I also support the decision that he
> > > cannot be held accountable,
>
> > So do I.
>
> > > I find it troubling that any of you would
> > > contest that he should be held to full account since you think the God
> > > excuse could only be made a devious Christian with a get-out clause.
>
> > I didn't say that, did I, genius?
>
> > > The point is not about religion here, it's about mental health and how
> > > it can spiral into such barbaric deeds which in turn perpetuate the
> > > stigma around such illnesses.
>
> > Wrong. The point IS about religion, combined with mental illness, and
> > how the religious peers of people like this fail to recognize the
> > situation for what it is, and how they may exacerbate the situation by
> > treating it with more religion.
>
> ***Religion is not a treatment,

That doesn't stop religious people from using religion as a treatment.
Ever heard of faith healers? How about seeing your pastor about
personal problems? You are living in a dream world.

> it is customary to pray for a needy
> person but that doesn't compromise or interfere with any actual
> treatment they may recieve.

Sure it does. Lots of people do not seek actual treatment in lieu of
supernatural rituals.

> Instead of suggesting that Vince Li was
> mollycoddled by the Christians of his community and that when his odd
> behaviour raised suspicions he was taken back into the fold

I didn't suggest that. I'm saying the "fold" eventually washed their
hands of him, or at least that's usually what happens.

> and simply
> told to pray harder to oust 'voices' or praised when he heard 'God's
> voice' doesn't it seem more likely that this man was a loner

Why was he a loner? He was part of a church, after all...why didn't
the church group look out for him?

> and that
> the religious community of no set place
> but a Canadian Highway journey
> at night (perhaps the reflections of the passengers in the windows in
> the darkness was enough to disorientate him) had no responsibility or
> guilty party in the fenzied murder, Mr. Li also believed the body
> would come back to life and begged police officers to kill him***

Bodies coming back to life is a distinctly religious concept.

> > > What this man did wasn't because of a
> > > conviction in God, it was because he is mentally ill, a diagnosed
> > > schizophrenic out-patient,
>
> > Again. He did this because of schizophrenia combined with religion.
> > And he wasn't diagnosed as a schizophrenic until the trial. Why are
> > you making stuff up about me and about the case?
>
> ***I'm not trying to make stuff up about you

So you do it without even trying?

> or distort what you said,
> but I would like to know HOW religion played a role in this,

"Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
evil."

That's how.

> you've
> already said religion exacerbates mental illness but when you say it
> was a combination of schizophrenia and religion how is the religious
> half responsible exactly? How does religion avert real medical care?
> ***

I think I've already said how - several times - and if you can't
answer that question for yourself then you need to re-read what I said
until you do.

> > > claiming to hear voices is a prime symptom
> > > of schizoprenia and when you have to weigh up the motives for such a
> > > crime the illness will take a natural precedence above religious
> > > excuses because religion is completely bankrupt of any power in the
> > > realms of criminal law, medical authority or public protection all of
> > > which are implied and of an actual priority to this case.
>
> > Strawman. You are certainly not arguing with anything I said.
>
> ***I can see why you said strawman but I mean that in the realms of
> criminal law, medical authority and public protection the words 'God
> made me do it' ain't worth shit***

If the words "God made me do it" are considered to be an indication of
schizophrenia, and the guy avoids criminal conviction on the grounds
that he was insane, then the words "God made me do it" are EXACTLY
what this case hinged upon. Man, you are dense.

> > > Some of the effects that schizophrenia sufferers deal with are a
> > > higher suicide and substance abuse rate, a 10-12 year lower life
> > > expectancy and long-term unemployment, poverty and homelessness.
> > > Religion is markedly different to mental health (which falls under the
> > > domain of science-not religion) and the argument that religion is
> > > involved in such crimes is aiming below the belt.
>
> > Here, let me quote from the article again:
>
> > "Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> > responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> > God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> > evil."
>
> > I think it's pointless for you to argue that God has nothing to do
> > with religion.
>
> > ***I see your point BUT God and religion can actually be deemed as seperate things

They can if you're hell bent on being wrong.

> YES God and religion are lock and key but if you read The Dawkins Delusion by Alaister McGrath (a brilliant book)

HA HA HA HAHAHAAA! HAHAH.

> then you'll see that belief in God can be seperate from following a religion, Madonna is a famous example of a woman who believes in God but rejects religious dogma altogether

HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA!!!

Madonna is a woman who deifies herself.

> and I KNOW Mr. Li does  not represent the views of most Christians so even if he did combine a faithin God with an active religious life in the community I doubt that same community will ever welcome him back***

Another reason why I view the self-described "loving flock" of
Christianity as a euphamism for "fucking hypocrites."

[Neil Kelsey]

On Mar 7, 6:57 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> > > This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> > > misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> > > belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> > > heinous crime?
>
> > Didn't you read the article? Didn't you read the title of this thread?
>
> > "Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> > responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> > God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> > evil."
>
> > The prosecution, the defense, and I all agree, and the judge ruled,
> > that it was a COMBINATION of schizophrenia and religion that caused
> > him to commit this crime.
>
> Liar said:

Whoa. It's interesting - I see her as being a lot like thea, in that
they try to present some kind of loving spin to thei beliefs, and when
you scratch them they are vicious and hateful about 1 millimeter
underneath the surface.

> > > The argument against religion is entrenched on this thread with
> > > complete lack of persective so I don't expect to change peoples minds
> > > but I feel the notion that religious belief is a form of mental
> > > illness is utterly ridiculous and risible.
>
> > Neil said:
> > That's fine, because that's not what I said, genius. Although I would
> > say that all religious belief is at least delusional, which is
> > neurotic.
>
> Trance said:
>
> Further to the above point, you might find this study interesting Neil.

I did, and I do. I will absorb this and follow the other thread you
started. This is good constructive stuff, thanks.

> --
> Witchy Woman, AvC Anti-Spam Brigade. AA Wolf Pack Member #7
> "When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my
> religion." --Abraham Lincoln (1809 - 1865), (attributed)- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[xnun]

On Mar 6, 7:06 pm, Bob Crowley <bobcrow...@acenet.net.au> wrote:

> The leader was diagnosed with schizophrenia. But I note that at one
> stage a psychatrist interviewing her got a hell of a shock when her
> voice suddenly dropped to a gravel bass, and declared "I'm Big
> Tracey!!" Tracey was her name by the way. At the same time he almost
> felt himself propelled against the wall behind him.

> Every well trained exorcist always sends someone for psychiatric
> treatment first. But when, in the words of one priest, "You've got
> someone floating around the ceiling, you know you've got more on your
> hands than a psychological condition."

------------------

The book I wrote about on my website, "Hostage to the Devil" by
Malachai Martin, describes a number of such events. He also
wrote the book "The Decline and Fall of the Roman Church."
He was subjected to several demonic attacks.

[hucktunes]

One thing I thought was interesting was that the crime occurred the
day after NBC aired an episode of Fear Itself about a Windigo,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_%26_Bones_(Fear_Itself_episode).

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Neil Kelsey <neil_...@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Mar 7, 6:57 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> > > This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> > > misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> > > belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> > > heinous crime?
>
> > Didn't you read the article? Didn't you read the title of this thread?
>
> > "Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> > responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> > God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> > evil."
>
> > The prosecution, the defense, and I all agree, and the judge ruled,
> > that it was a COMBINATION of schizophrenia and religion that caused
> > him to commit this crime.
>
> Liar said:

Whoa. It's interesting - I see her as being a lot like thea, in that
they try to present some kind of loving spin to thei beliefs, and when
you scratch them they are vicious and hateful about 1 millimeter
underneath the surface.

 

I don't agree. Thea (no matter how bizarre) is quite sincere in her outrageous beliefs.

 

This one shifts goal posts, creates straw men, and when she changes her position she out and out lies about what she said.

 

And when she's caught and cornered she get's very ugly and abusive.

 

That's been my experience anyway.

 

I have noticed that's she not as nasty with others though even if they're more challenging than I am.

 

Which is kind of interesting.

[kenandkids]

don't forget neil, that while mental illness CAN be genetic, it isn't
always. mental illness, much like religion, can develope and often
does.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Neil Kelsey]

On Mar 7, 4:06 pm, kenandkids <kenandk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> don't forget neil, that while mental illness CAN be genetic, it isn't
> always. mental illness, much like religion, can develope and often
> does.

Certain categories of mental illness, like schizophrenia, ARE genetic,
and they often develop (start to manifest) in the late teens. Although
someone without the disease can be religious and adopt similar
behaviours (a lot of people were decapitated during the Inquisition,
for instance) I think it is just heterogenous behaviour - same
behaviour, different causes. I would throw Inquisitors in prison, but
I would give religious schizophrenics psychiatric treatment - for
similar crimes.

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[hucktunes]

Myself, I would not allow mental illness to be used as an excuse to
avoid punishment. It can be stated that any act of violence is caused
by either an acute or a longer lasting form of mental illness. For
some reason my little town seems to be the end of the line for many
schizophrenics. And they are for the most part not a danger to the
public. If it wasn't for the wing nuts holding down the corners Old
Town would slide into the bay.

[Dag Yo]

This is exactly why environments like churches, where everyone talks
about how great it is to believe things without evidence lead to
really awful things like this. It sucks but this sort of thing might
have been prevented if the guy was part of a community that knew more
about science and medicine. Not that psych meds are any fun to take.

[Bob Crowley]

Padre Pio used to suffer demonic attacks regularly. He also had the
stigmata. So if you exude what might be called an aura of holiness,
then you can be sure the devil will attack you.

[Lori Puissegur]

what church?
there are many church sponsored and secular help for mental illness
what things do environments like churches believe or disbelieve?
   
> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 20:55:56 -0800

> Subject: [AvC] Re: Mental Illness & Religion Don't Mix

> From: sir_...@yahoo.com
> To: Atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com

[Bob Crowley]

That's a load of garbage. Schizophrenia, with it's attendant
delusions, would exist whether or not churches existed. A very small
minority of schizophrenics would do criminal acts,: most would end up
harming themselves or be taken advantage of by others. When I first
became a Christian there was a hostel not far from the church, where
several schizophrenics lived. Some of them used to come to the church
because it was one of the few places where they felt some acceptance.
By and large society doesn't accept them very well. And the extreme
case of multiple personalities became overly advertised due to
Hollywood. Most of them are not like that.

[Stonethatbleeds]

Religion plays no role in this sickness! Atheist also have the exact
same results in the same sickness for it is about reality being split
from them and so we saw in the past the hospitals full of napoleons
and Elvis and all kinds of focus as well as the same violence with out
logic. The chemical imbalance of the brain has nothing to do with
religions on any level... concepts of what is good or evil in any
Human is used and so has nothing to do with religions that are equally
reflected in the sickness as all other extreme claims made by the
sick.
To link them to religions of any kind is a hate act and low ability to
grasp basics of things in the subject... the blind pointing to the
blind "and speaking as if seeing", but clearly blind.

On Mar 5, 3:50 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> "WINNIPEG, Manitoba - A Canadian judge ruled Thursday that a man
> accused of beheading and cannibalizing a fellow Greyhound bus
> passenger is not criminally responsible due to mental illness.
>
> The decision means Chinese immigrant Vince Li will be treated in a
> mental institution instead of going to prison. The victim's family
> dismissed the trial as a "rubber stamp" that allows Li to get away
> with murder.
>
> The judge said Li should not be held criminally accountable for
> stabbing Tim McLean dozens of times last July and dismembering his

> body while horrified passengers fled. Both the prosecution and the

> defense had also argued Li can't be held responsible because he is
> mentally ill.
>
> Justice John Scurfield said Li's attack was "grotesque" and "barbaric"
> but "strongly suggestive of a mental disorder."
>
> "He did not appreciate the actions he committed were morally wrong. He
> believed he was acting in self-defense," Scurfield said.
>

> Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> evil."
>

[Stonethatbleeds]

Bullshit!
The concept of good and evil is common to all Humans and 85% and more
of the WORLD has a god concept and the rest too dumb to know they
serve man made Gods like in the USA were Gods are corporations and
companies with more than human rights and yet do not have life in all
the power they demand with all the counterfeit money the US of A has
produced since 1913 to cheat in the buying and selling to fake a
economy that is now in ruins and cause of the next world war or
collapse of capitalism so extreme it all is. Man made gods that rule
the fate of the people is exactly what gods with a little G on them
is... so no such thing as real Atheist on this planet... so to claim a
person that is INSaNE to say "GOD" is common to all humans on the
planet as a word... means not a religious link on any level... your
evil to think so does!



On Mar 5, 4:10 pm, philosophy <smwil...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
> Sorry Neil - pressed the button too soon.
> There are many people in our society who suffer with
> mental illness, who do know right from wrong, and who
> don't cause problems for others, who are sometimes
> medicated to help them.  Many of these sufferers are
> contributing members of society, and should be
> supported by society in return.
> Religious nutters who justify their actions of violence
> based on their religious beliefs should be looked after
> by the churches they belong to ie their medical
> expenses should be paid for by their church.

[Stonethatbleeds]

Stop the lies!
The history books are full of proof you are lying!
in fact all the history books call you a liar!
All but one Prophet were proof of very sane logical well educated
people and just one Prophet is known to be as you say... and I will
not even say that filthy thing's name so great is it's sin.


On Mar 5, 5:43 pm, rappoccio <rappoc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Huge agreement here. Very often, the mentally ill are mistaken for
> some "prophet" or as some communication with "God", when in fact, they
> are just having paranoid delusions. This happens all the time. Very
> often, these types are diagnosed as having said mental illness, but
> then upon that diagnosis, just claim absurdities like psychiatry isn't
> science and other such nonsense, since they can't accept they have a
> mental illness.

[Stonethatbleeds]

proving you are willing to think to hate religions for the common god
name used by such sick people as well as other famous names of power
they claim in insanity... by any name the God they give themselves
still speaks and they still claim to hear it! So you are exposed as
evil trying to blame religions for the sickness common to all human
kinds, nations and lands... you are but evil that speaks, and the
truth, you hide from to do it.


On Mar 5, 6:22 pm, Cormagh <cookl...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> This is just one more case available, which helps us to understand the
> religious roots of psycopathy and schizophrenia. Placing the financial
> burden of mental illness and wars on the institutions that foster
> religious delusion is one way we can place the blame squarely where it
> lies.
>
> Regards,
> Cormagh

[Stonethatbleeds]

what is wrong with you people? Too low of an IQ to know he will never
be free? too stupid to know the ways we do things on this planet past
your noses? What kind of evil is in you to even think such things is
beyond me... to not know he got a life sentence and to point to
religions is revolting to see!


On Mar 5, 7:10 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "WINNIPEG, Manitoba - A Canadian judge ruled Thursday that a man
> > accused of beheading and cannibalizing a fellow Greyhound bus
> > passenger is not criminally responsible due to mental illness.
>

> I wouldn't have a problem with this If there was a requirement that he
> remain in a mental hospital.
>
> Unfortunately all it would take is one shrink to say he can be released and
> off he goes.

>
>
>
>
>
> > The decision means Chinese immigrant Vince Li will be treated in a
> > mental institution instead of going to prison. The victim's family
> > dismissed the trial as a "rubber stamp" that allows Li to get away
> > with murder.
>
> > The judge said Li should not be held criminally accountable for
> > stabbing Tim McLean dozens of times last July and dismembering his
> > body while horrified passengers fled. Both the prosecution and the
> > defense had also argued Li can't be held responsible because he is
> > mentally ill.
>
> > Justice John Scurfield said Li's attack was "grotesque" and "barbaric"
> > but "strongly suggestive of a mental disorder."
>
> > "He did not appreciate the actions he committed were morally wrong. He
> > believed he was acting in self-defense," Scurfield said.
>
> > Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> > responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> > God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> > evil."
>
> > At what point do the religious bear some responsibility for acts like
> > these (and they are countless)? Instead of recognizing mentally ill
> > people for what they are and steering them towards proper treatment,
> > it often turns out that their religious peers (who know they are
> > troubled) treat them with prayer and provoke them into dangerous
> > episodes.
>

> Yes. This is a serious problem.

>
> > I have a schizophrenic sister who is an atheist, and she is
> > gentle as a lamb - I'm not saying her example can be applied to
> > everyone, but I am sure that keeping schizophrenics et al away from
> > psychologists because the religious regard psychology as "quackery" is
> > a huge mistake, and is costing innocent lives.
>

> I agree! Your sister is probably doing well because she has proper
> psychiatric care and has probably had it on a regular basis.
>
> Most schizophrenics are gentle, especially when they are receiving proper
> treatment.
>
> It's when the psychosis and delusions kick in that they can become
> dangerous. Proper mental health care can prevent this.

[LJL]

On Mar 7, 9:57 pm, Lori Puissegur <lpuisse...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> what church?
>
> there are many church sponsored and secular help for mental illness

LL: Ha, ha. Yes. they'll tell you to pray for a "recovery"--a recovery
from common sense and rationality.

>
LP: what things do environments like churches believe or disbelieve?

LL: That mental illness comes from Satan and only prayer and belief
will cure it.

*************************************************************************

>
> > Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 20:55:56 -0800
> > Subject: [AvC] Re: Mental Illness & Religion Don't Mix

> > From: sir_ro...@yahoo.com

> > To: Atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com
>
> > This is exactly why environments like churches, where everyone talks
> > about how great it is to believe things without evidence lead to
> > really awful things like this. It sucks but this sort of thing might
> > have been prevented if the guy was part of a community that knew more
> > about science and medicine. Not that psych meds are any fun to take.
>

> _________________________________________________________________
> Windows Live™ Contacts: Organize your contact list.http://windowslive.com/connect/post/marcusatmicrosoft.spaces.live.com...

[Stonethatbleeds]

DA! what the fuck do you think took place? a free ticket? he got a
life sentence in an insane Asylum like all others like him have and
are sent! You filthy evil Americans just want to pretend OUR ways
superior to yours that are inferior. We know what to do unlike
Americans that simply have trouble with reality and live on
counterfeit money since 1913. That is what you get when you let the
Mafia run your country and laws.





On Mar 5, 8:41 pm, Medusa <Medusa4...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On Mar 5, 1:50 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "WINNIPEG, Manitoba - A Canadian judge ruled Thursday that a man
> > accused of beheading and cannibalizing a fellow Greyhound bus
> > passenger is not criminally responsible due to mental illness.
>

> > The decision means Chinese immigrant Vince Li will be treated in a
> > mental institution instead of going to prison. The victim's family
> > dismissed the trial as a "rubber stamp" that allows Li to get away
> > with murder.
>

> In Illinois, this man would be convicted of "guilty, but mentally
> ill."  He would be sent to a secure mental institution for treatment.
> Should he later be judged by the doctors at the facility to have
> recovered, he would then be sent to prison.
>
> I believe this would be civilized justice.
>
> Medusa

[LJL]

On Mar 7, 11:03 pm, Bob Crowley <bobcrow...@acenet.net.au> wrote:
> That's a load of garbage.  Schizophrenia, with it's attendant
> delusions, would exist whether or not churches existed.  A very small
> minority of schizophrenics would do criminal acts,:  most would end up
> harming themselves or be taken advantage of by others.  When I first
> became a Christian there was a hostel not far from the church, where
> several schizophrenics lived.  Some of them used to come to the church
> because it was one of the few places where they felt some acceptance.
> By and large society doesn't accept them very well.  And the extreme
> case of multiple personalities became overly advertised due to
> Hollywood.  Most of them are not like that.

LL: Religion doesn't CAUSE mental illness. The outrage comes in how
they approach it and what they have thought and still think will
remedy it.They're still in the dark ages over this as well as a lot of
other subjects. Churches used to run asylums--some still do--and they
were the worst hell holes you can imagine with people chained to the
walls.. Part of their cure was exorcising the devil and the Catholic
Church hasn't given up on this yet.

***************************************************************

********************************************************

****************************************************************

[Stonethatbleeds]

You liar!
it said that religious people were more prepared for disasters than
others and so are able to get past errors where other get stuck. it
said nothing of what you claim!
You just lie.
It also said that it was a very tiny study and none of the data is
more than preliminary data. it never spoke of metal illness and never
linked mental illness to any religions..you on the other hand show
evil and insane wants to say lies.



On Mar 5, 8:55 pm, gousaphe <dangdang...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Maybe you should tell us too that a Canadian brain study has also
> shown that believers have less stress than non-believers. This
> finding, honestly, laid the blame for mental illness squarely at the
> feet of the secularized society.
> This ain't about someone's opinion of psychology.

>
> On Mar 5, 12:50 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "WINNIPEG, Manitoba - A Canadian judge ruled Thursday that a man
> > accused of beheading and cannibalizing a fellow Greyhound bus
> > passenger is not criminally responsible due to mental illness.
>
> > The decision means Chinese immigrant Vince Li will be treated in a
> > mental institution instead of going to prison. The victim's family
> > dismissed the trial as a "rubber stamp" that allows Li to get away
> > with murder.
>

> > The judge said Li should not be held criminally accountable for
> > stabbing Tim McLean dozens of times last July and dismembering his
> > body while horrified passengers fled. Both the prosecution and the
> > defense had also argued Li can't be held responsible because he is
> > mentally ill.
>
> > Justice John Scurfield said Li's attack was "grotesque" and "barbaric"
> > but "strongly suggestive of a mental disorder."
>
> > "He did not appreciate the actions he committed were morally wrong. He
> > believed he was acting in self-defense," Scurfield said.
>
> > Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> > responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> > God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> > evil."
>
> > At what point do the religious bear some responsibility for acts like
> > these (and they are countless)? Instead of recognizing mentally ill
> > people for what they are and steering them towards proper treatment,
> > it often turns out that their religious peers (who know they are
> > troubled) treat them with prayer and provoke them into dangerous

> > episodes. I have a schizophrenic sister who is an atheist, and she is

[Stonethatbleeds]

here we go with the need to be compulsive liar again Dev... metal
illness is not religion based but brain based and so anyone can have
ti from accident to chemical unbalance to Mal formed brains because
good old MOM drank booze wile Baby did not get brain built that day
and each day she drank... like the millions on end in the US of a that
we know of. Did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you? You
best ask her! Compulsive liars do fit the profile!



On Mar 5, 9:05 pm, Dev <thedevil...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> Isn't saying mental illness and religion don't mix kind of like saying
> gin and gin don't mix?
>
> Anyway, seriously. You don't need a degree in psychology to see the
> stupid double-standards here. The only rational way to come to terms
> with shit like this is to acknowledge that anyone with a religion is
> mentally unstable. Nobody has drawn a clear line between "religious"
> and "nuts", and nobody ever will, because it's impossible. It's an
> issue of pragmatism. We can't institutionalize everyone who believes
> in God, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about it honestly.

[Stonethatbleeds]

you know how things work trance...you are Canadian and know it is a
life sentence because the sickness is of life. All others that blame
religion as if to blame are a bit on the Looney side. I am sure if you
do some simple checks on Google that you will find that insanity of
that kind does have a violence factor, and religions have zero to do
with it. God is a Universal concept and so has nothing to do with
religions in this case. the man is insane and not just insane but
criminally insane... a life sentence in Canada with no parole or real
freedom "ever" till he dies. He is never going to hurt anyone again.
You and i know such things as Canadians, and our superior morals and
ways to the US of A "in general".


On Mar 5, 9:12 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 7:41 PM, Medusa <Medusa4...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> > On Mar 5, 1:50 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > "WINNIPEG, Manitoba - A Canadian judge ruled Thursday that a man
> > > accused of beheading and cannibalizing a fellow Greyhound bus
> > > passenger is not criminally responsible due to mental illness.
>
> > > The decision means Chinese immigrant Vince Li will be treated in a
> > > mental institution instead of going to prison. The victim's family
> > > dismissed the trial as a "rubber stamp" that allows Li to get away
> > > with murder.
>

> > In Illinois, this man would be convicted of "guilty, but mentally
> > ill."  He would be sent to a secure mental institution for treatment.
> > Should he later be judged by the doctors at the facility to have
> > recovered, he would then be sent to prison.
>
> > I believe this would be civilized justice.
>

> That's exactly the way it should be.
>
> If someone is well enough to be released they are well enough to be held
> accountable for their actions and go to prison.
>
>
>
> > Medusa

[Stonethatbleeds]

http://karisable.com/crserial2.htm
Simple, you link is a lie personal page and nothing close to
reality..it is atheist lies!
You should learn to look more to the official pages than to pages of a
guy's opinions.


On Mar 5, 9:14 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 7:55 PM, gousaphe <dangdang...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Maybe you should tell us too that a Canadian brain study has also
> > shown that believers have less stress than non-believers. This
> > finding, honestly, laid the blame for mental illness squarely at the
> > feet of the secularized society.
> > This ain't about someone's opinion of psychology.
>

> How do you explain this:
>
> http://home.comcast.net/~pobrien48/serial_killers.htm
>
> "The FBI gave the standard profile of a serial killer, He is a person with
> few friends. He became much more religious just before he started murdering
> people. After reading all the available studies I could find and studying
> all the articles in the newspapers for over 30 years, I find what is most
> outstanding is Serial killers were sexually inhibited by their strong
> religious upbringing.
>
> Nearly all serial killers are very devout men who were raised by members of
> Pentecostal sects, fundamentalist Catholics or were 'hard-shell' Baptists
> and Methodists."
>
> Studies after study show serial killers are a product of this environment,
> not genetics."

>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 5, 12:50 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > "WINNIPEG, Manitoba - A Canadian judge ruled Thursday that a man
> > > accused of beheading and cannibalizing a fellow Greyhound bus
> > > passenger is not criminally responsible due to mental illness.
>
> > > The decision means Chinese immigrant Vince Li will be treated in a
> > > mental institution instead of going to prison. The victim's family
> > > dismissed the trial as a "rubber stamp" that allows Li to get away
> > > with murder.
>

> > > The judge said Li should not be held criminally accountable for
> > > stabbing Tim McLean dozens of times last July and dismembering his
> > > body while horrified passengers fled. Both the prosecution and the
> > > defense had also argued Li can't be held responsible because he is
> > > mentally ill.
>
> > > Justice John Scurfield said Li's attack was "grotesque" and "barbaric"
> > > but "strongly suggestive of a mental disorder."
>
> > > "He did not appreciate the actions he committed were morally wrong. He
> > > believed he was acting in self-defense," Scurfield said.
>
> > > Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> > > responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> > > God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> > > evil."
>
> > > At what point do the religious bear some responsibility for acts like
> > > these (and they are countless)? Instead of recognizing mentally ill
> > > people for what they are and steering them towards proper treatment,
> > > it often turns out that their religious peers (who know they are
> > > troubled) treat them with prayer and provoke them into dangerous
> > > episodes. I have a schizophrenic sister who is an atheist, and she is
> > > gentle as a lamb - I'm not saying her example can be applied to
> > > everyone, but I am sure that keeping schizophrenics et al away from
> > > psychologists because the religious regard psychology as "quackery" is
> > > a huge mistake, and is costing innocent lives.
>

[Stonethatbleeds]

"The only 100% sure thing we know about serial killers in the US of a
is that they are all Hard core Capitalists, and the most of them of
the whole world come from the US of A."
Peter

[Stonethatbleeds]

..and where was any mention of him being of any religion/ where is the
mention of link of religions and insanity...all you done is prove your
own sanity is not stable to dream up all this really dumb hatred and
blame out of nothing but a sick guy with a sickness YOU don't
understand and did no research and simply are being idiot fool or
insane person to make up accusation against religions and links of
insanity to religion even religions to care for the mentally ill... we
see only you being ill of mind to think such things in the first place
from a news article that shows nothing of your claims... so maybe an
institution to re-educate and reform you to functional is in need? You
clearly show signs of not following reality.

On Mar 5, 9:31 pm, Harvy Brans <harvybr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Isn't saying mental illness and religion don't mix kind of like saying
> > gin and gin don't mix?
>

> Maybe there are actually atheists in the church, who are kind and
> altruistic, and take it upon themselves to look after the
> "flock" (sick people), and who don't mind being deceptive and living a
> lie. Then it's more like gin and tonic with quinine. No seriously.

>
> > Anyway, seriously. You don't need a degree in psychology to see the
> > stupid double-standards here. The only rational way to come to terms
> > with shit like this is to acknowledge that anyone with a religion is
> > mentally unstable. Nobody has drawn a clear line between "religious"
> > and "nuts", and nobody ever will, because it's impossible. It's an
> > issue of pragmatism. We can't institutionalize everyone who believes
> > in God, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about it honestly.
>

> They have already been institutionalized--in a church. It's where they
> belong. It's just too bad, we on the outside cannot confine them
> there.
>
> Harvy

>
> On Mar 5, 5:05 pm, Dev <thedevil...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> > Isn't saying mental illness and religion don't mix kind of like saying
> > gin and gin don't mix?
>
> > Anyway, seriously. You don't need a degree in psychology to see the
> > stupid double-standards here. The only rational way to come to terms
> > with shit like this is to acknowledge that anyone with a religion is
> > mentally unstable. Nobody has drawn a clear line between "religious"
> > and "nuts", and nobody ever will, because it's impossible. It's an
> > issue of pragmatism. We can't institutionalize everyone who believes
> > in God, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about it honestly.
>

> > > a huge mistake, and is costing innocent lives.- Hide quoted text -

[Stonethatbleeds]

NEVER WAS!

On Mar 5, 9:37 pm, Lori Puissegur <lpuisse...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> of course
> but that's not a religious issue
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 17:28:41 -0800

> > Subject: [AvC] Re: Mental Illness & Religion Don't Mix

> > From: Medusa4...@yahoo.com
> > To: Atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com
>
> > On Mar 5, 7:15 pm, lori <w0315...@selu.edu> wrote:
>
> > > What stops a mentally ill person from going to the doctor...
> > > maybe it's people who don't understand mental illness???
>
> > The seriously mentally ill usually do not believe there is anything
> > wrong with themselves.
>
> > Medusa
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Express your personality in color! Preview and select themes for Hotmail®.http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/LearnMore/personalize.aspx?ocid=TX...

[Stonethatbleeds]

The problem seams to be mostly and US OF A problem as it creates the
most of the world regardless of religions of both the sick and the
insane killers! So maybe there is something to slavery that does it?
To see slavery then told it is not slavery can drive humans insane!
Look at the Us of a today! Most of the planet thinks it is on the
brink of starting a world war oto cover for the counterfeit money it
printed since 1913 to steal from others and cheat in markets and get
control of things by crime and slavery of peoples it affects...then
claim to be good and opposite of what is exposed!



On Mar 6, 1:24 am, Max <a...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> Neil,
>
> Problem is that the more 'moderate' religious won't act against their
> more rabid brethren I'm afraid. I mean, if some religious parents are
> granted the 'right' to withdraw life saving medical assistance to
> their children, and the authorities subsequently accede to that
> request, then what hope is there for any court to make the religious
> contingently responsible for their 'influence' with the mentally
> imbalanced?
>
> And you know that the god nutters will simply claim the guy was nuts
> (now there's the pot calling the kettle black) and 'of course' the
> nutjob in question didn't hear from god at all. I mean how
> preposterous does that sound!
>
> It was Satan.......
>
> Max

[Stonethatbleeds]

The evil of some members has no bounds as they expose themselves as
inferior to the task of just getting the basics.

On Mar 6, 10:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> heinous crime?
>

> The argument against religion is entrenched on this thread with
> complete lack of persective so I don't expect to change peoples minds
> but I feel the notion that religious belief is a form of mental
> illness is utterly ridiculous and risible.
>

> When a clinically ill person, suffering from the altered state of
> reality and multiple personalities of schizophrenia, murders and
> cannibalises someone in a terrfiying frenzied attack only to later
> cite their reason as 'God told me to do it' and you then accept their
> (ill) reasoning as justification for murder this undermines the medics
> who diagnosed him and undermines the ongoing trials of science into
> neurobiology (the study of cell circuits within the nervous sytem
> which control and regulate behaviour) and another key strand-genetics
> and hereditary factors through natural selection.
>

> Religion may or may not have been his motivation (religion is entirely

> without substance and therefore becomes redundant to the matter) but

> we do know he was a schizophrenic and this makes his illness the alpha

> and omega of his actions and I also support the decision that he
> cannot be held accountable, I find it troubling that any of you would

> contest that he should be held to full account since you think the God
> excuse could only be made a devious Christian with a get-out clause.
>

> The point is not about religion here, it's about mental health and how
> it can spiral into such barbaric deeds which in turn perpetuate the

> stigma around such illnesses. What this man did wasn't because of a

> conviction in God, it was because he is mentally ill, a diagnosed

> schizophrenic out-patient, claiming to hear voices is a prime symptom

> of schizoprenia and when you have to weigh up the motives for such a
> crime the illness will take a natural precedence above religious
> excuses because religion is completely bankrupt of any power in the
> realms of criminal law, medical authority or public protection all of
> which are implied and of an actual priority to this case.
>

> Some of the effects that schizophrenia sufferers deal with are a
> higher suicide and substance abuse rate, a 10-12 year lower life
> expectancy and long-term unemployment, poverty and homelessness.
> Religion is markedly different to mental health (which falls under the
> domain of science-not religion) and the argument that religion is
> involved in such crimes is aiming below the belt.
>

[Stonethatbleeds]

your insane slant on reality is noted by all sides.

On Mar 6, 11:31 am, kenandkids <kenandk...@gmail.com> wrote:
> while your moral outrage is evident, i think that your premise is
> faulty. when a person suffers mental illness as a christian they are
> sainted, when a secular human has a mental illness we are imprisoned.

>
> > When a clinically ill person, suffering from the altered state of
> > reality and multiple personalities of schizophrenia, murders

> >..... someone in a terrfiying frenzied attack only to later

> > cite their reason as 'God told me to do it' and you then accept their
> > (ill) reasoning as justification for murder this undermines the medics
> > who diagnosed him and undermines the ongoing trials of science into
> > neurobiology (the study of cell circuits within the nervous sytem
> > which control and regulate behaviour) and another key strand-genetics
> > and hereditary factors through natural selection.
>

> this is a great passage and describes the majority of figures in the
> bible. how about joan of arc? quite possibly the most famous
> schizophrenic in history. but of course these people are holy and not
> diseased, i submit again that, in regards to mental illness and
> religion, one causes the other.

>
> On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> > misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> > belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> > heinous crime?
>
> > The argument against religion is entrenched on this thread with
> > complete lack of persective so I don't expect to change peoples minds
> > but I feel the notion that religious belief is a form of mental
> > illness is utterly ridiculous and risible.
>

[Stonethatbleeds]

Never read a Bible eh..well you should some time.

On Mar 6, 1:25 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> On Mar 6, 7:31 am, kenandkids <kenandk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > while your moral outrage is evident, i think that your premise is
> > faulty. when a person suffers mental illness as a christian they are
> > sainted, when a secular human has a mental illness we are imprisoned.
>
> > > When a clinically ill person, suffering from the altered state of
> > > reality and multiple personalities of schizophrenia, murders
> > >..... someone in a terrfiying frenzied attack only to later
> > > cite their reason as 'God told me to do it' and you then accept their
> > > (ill) reasoning as justification for murder this undermines the medics
> > > who diagnosed him and undermines the ongoing trials of science into
> > > neurobiology (the study of cell circuits within the nervous sytem
> > > which control and regulate behaviour) and another key strand-genetics
> > > and hereditary factors through natural selection.
>
> > this is a great passage and describes the majority of figures in the
> > bible. how about joan of arc? quite possibly the most famous
> > schizophrenic in history.
>

> Joan's good, but I'm leaning towards Jesus himself - thought he was
> God, heard voices, had enough charisma to trigger a self-fulfilling
> conspiracy against him. If he existed I am convinced he was
> schizophrenic. So I will amend the title of this thread: Mental
> Illness & Religion & Charisma is a lethal combination.

>
> > but of course these people are holy and not
> > diseased, i submit again that, in regards to mental illness and
> > religion, one causes the other.
>

> I differentiate between genetic disorders and acquired ones.
> Schizophrenia is obviously genetic, at least it is to me (and
> researchers), having observed it (both siblings and a grandfather, a
> co-worker who murdered 5 members of his family because the Bible
> instructed him to do so, plus all the news stories like the one above
> in which their motivation is eerily familiar - they weren't all raised
> by the same mother, after all. And I was raised by the same mother as
> my siblings, and I simply don't have this devastating condition, thank
> some non-existent deity PBUI). I'm saying religion can only make this
> particular pre-existing mental illness worse, given that religion
> feeds someone who is already hallucinating wildly a false world vision
> that places them into a one-to-one relationship with the most powerful
> entity imaginable (emphasis on imaginable). So I don't think religion
> causes schizophrenia (or psychopathy). But I do think all religious
> belief has at least some neurotic basis (i.e. no religious belief is
> based on reality).

[Lori Puissegur]

not all --
 and yes,
prayer is a part of faith organizations--
but also seeking proper mental and physical care from medical doctors
along with mental health-it also affects physical health
promotion of care for both is advocated
surprisingly more care can be provided by faith -based ministries
and usually no charge or a sliding scale based on income
 
 
 
> Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 23:52:51 -0800

> Subject: [AvC] Re: Mental Illness & Religion Don't Mix

> From: llp...@aol.com
> To: Atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com

[Stonethatbleeds]

you need to get an education and not make super insane links like
that, then lie claims. it does not resemble your old religion and
Jesus did not worship cats or to be drugged on old wine
preservatives..so you lies! You lie like saying all people that drink
water are of this or that religion... your logic is of a blind person.
In fact never is Jesus drunk or drugged in his whole life recorded...
so why do you dare make him a pagan dunk on drugs worshiping Gods and
i mean a host of Gods for when we all know he is not his way? Is the
lie important to you to tell it? who told you to lie like that?







On Mar 7, 3:00 am, hucktunes <bob.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> One of Europe and the Near East's oldest religions was the Dionysian
> cults. Many times the adherents were overcome by such enthusiasm that
> they ripped innocent passersby to shreds with there bare hands or any
> weapons at hand,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysian_Mysteries.
> Christianity resembles this old religion more so than any other. Jesus
> is Dionysus. The name is the same, they eat his flesh, and they drink
> his blood.

>
> On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> > misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> > belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> > heinous crime?
>
> > The argument against religion is entrenched on this thread with
> > complete lack of persective so I don't expect to change peoples minds
> > but I feel the notion that religious belief is a form of mental
> > illness is utterly ridiculous and risible.
>

> > When a clinically ill person, suffering from the altered state of

> > reality and multiple personalities of schizophrenia, murders and
> > cannibalises someone in a terrfiying frenzied attack only to later

> > cite their reason as 'God told me to do it' and you then accept their
> > (ill) reasoning as justification for murder this undermines the medics
> > who diagnosed him and undermines the ongoing trials of science into
> > neurobiology (the study of cell circuits within the nervous sytem
> > which control and regulate behaviour) and another key strand-genetics
> > and hereditary factors through natural selection.
>

[Stonethatbleeds]

you seam to think the religions pay a role in the story..no they
don't!
so stop talking as if religions play a role in the story...grow up!
All you do is feed the posts with more shit... no religion plays any
part in nay mental patient! mental illness is not related to any kind
of religion and is more pronounced in the USA than any other country
because it is a more cruel Nation that permits more violence on
children than most... in the name of freedom to all to do and not in
freedom from where lall laws should be rooted... dysfunctional nation
make more dysfunctional people than any other nation. The life
sentence the guy got was appropriate and logical and had nothing to do
with religions of any kind.



On Mar 7, 9:16 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> This is an orgy or frenzy by intoxication through Bacchal wine or
> chewing ivy leaves as a form of spirtual high but they did NOT rip
> people apart, they ripped goats and fawns apart with their bare hands
> and ate the meat, usually it would be a bull that they'd knaw with
> their teeth in a wild shreiking frenzy, part of it was also a 'dancing
> dervish' where the'd dress up as the God Dionysus play wind
> instruments and dance a fitful delirious dance trying to evoke the
> spirit of the Dion within themselves and all of this behaviour was a
> form of communion.
>
> There are some behavioural phenomenons such as people dancing wildly
> to the point of exhaustion even in recent times one example being in
> France for no apparent reason, Glastonbury is also I think imbued with
> some spiritual folk traditions maybe even Ibiza it depends what music
> you identify with and I'm sure there are many other traditional
> congregational acts with no specific religious purpose-just purely the
> act of coming together and celebrating, uniting, bonding all with the
> same 'highs' of the ancient pagan rituals only by drugs and drink now.
>
> Schizophrenia is markedly different, it's isolating for one thing and
> the madness of it is wholly unpleasant for all concerned, it's not to
> be sought out or wished for, it's feared, marginalised, avoided, taboo
> v. different from religion and completely different from spiritual
> communion.
>
> Saints don't cannibalise, most of them were important political
> figures or were motivated by the politics and law of their day (for
> the good), heroes and revolutionaries were victims not murderers, if
> you believe Joan of Arc did exist then this was a young girl who led
> an army and turned the tide of war lifting a siege in 9 days with
> stragetic genius and helped re-establish the French monarchy by
> putting Charles VII (who never intervened in her trail) back on the
> throne. At 19 she was tried in a heavily biased court, she was
> supposed to be held in an ecclesiastical prison but was sent to a
> secular one and executed aged 19 charged with heresy but was already
> prounced innocent by Pope Callixtus.
>
>  There is a difference between being a murderer for an personal,
> irrational reason like Vince Li (at the terror of other Christians, no
> doubt) and trying to liberate through political warfare like Joan who
> has also hugely enriched culture and culture has never been spread
> peacefully. Religion just isn't substantial enough to hold the blame
> and as for religion making mental illness worse this is absurd, relig
> is an optional belief, not indoctrinated so much as already existing
> since the dawn of man, schizophrenia is a neurological disease (tho
> I'm not sure of it is classed as a disease) but it is a fault in the
> circuitry of the brain. Belief (given the relaxed, mostly lapsed
> attitude of most Christians his could be called contemplation of
> spiritual ideas rather than an unswerving conviction in God) is not
> comparable to an actual defect within the processes of the brain.

[Stonethatbleeds]

how many times must we tell you mental illness has nothing to do with
religions! he could of said mickey mouse and it be as real to him as
god so it has nothing to do with religions! YOUR LOW IQ makes you
think so!
mental illness is not linked to religions! It is linked accidents and
sickness and chemical unbalances but never religions or politics or
cars or houses... that kind of thinking only proved ht e low IQ of the
people that JUMP to religion before learning of the sickness and so
dummies ALL! A evil will to blame a sickness on a religion and so all
low life's with next to no morals at all.

On Mar 7, 10:28 am, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> > misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> > belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> > heinous crime?
>

> Didn't you read the article? Didn't you read the title of this thread?

>
> "Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> evil."
>

> The prosecution, the defense, and I all agree, and the judge ruled,
> that it was a COMBINATION of schizophrenia and religion that caused
> him to commit this crime.

>
> > The argument against religion is entrenched on this thread with
> > complete lack of persective so I don't expect to change peoples minds
> > but I feel the notion that religious belief is a form of mental
> > illness is utterly ridiculous and risible.
>

> That's fine, because that's not what I said, genius. Although I would
> say that all religious belief is at least delusional, which is
> neurotic.

>
> > When a clinically ill person, suffering from the altered state of
> > reality and multiple personalities of schizophrenia, murders and
> > cannibalises someone in a terrfiying frenzied attack only to later
> > cite their reason as 'God told me to do it' and you then accept their
> > (ill) reasoning as justification for murder this undermines the medics
> > who diagnosed him and undermines the ongoing trials of science into
> > neurobiology (the study of cell circuits within the nervous sytem
> > which control and regulate behaviour) and another key strand-genetics
> > and hereditary factors through natural selection.
>

> Since I said it was a combination of the two (schizophrenia and
> religion) you can save your indignation. What I did question, however,
> is how much responisibility their religious peers should take, since
> there are countless incidents like this in which mentally ill people
> don't get competent help because they are being insulated by people
> who would rather treat them with prayers and exorcisms. I maintain
> that religious "care" only exacerbates the problem.

>
> > Religion may or may not have been his motivation (religion is entirely
> > without substance and therefore becomes redundant to the matter)
>

> Religion is not without substance - if you have a disease of the mind,
> and you are being fed a diseased thoughts like those found in
> Christianity, of course the problem will get worse.
>
> And of course religion was his motivation - God was telling him that
> the guy on the bus was going to kill him. God told him to get on the
> bus. God told him to kill a guy in a truck the previous night (the
> truck driver fortunately drove off, without knowing what God had
> planned for him). If this schizophrenic had no concept of God, or
> understood that the concept of God was ludicrous, then he would not
> have killed anyone because God told him to.

>
> > but
> > we do know he was a schizophrenic and this makes his illness the alpha
> > and omega of his actions
>

> Wrong. It was a combination of schizophrenia and religion.

>
> > and I also support the decision that he
> > cannot be held accountable,
>

> So do I.

>
> > I find it troubling that any of you would
> > contest that he should be held to full account since you think the God
> > excuse could only be made a devious Christian with a get-out clause.
>

> I didn't say that, did I, genius?

>
> > The point is not about religion here, it's about mental health and how
> > it can spiral into such barbaric deeds which in turn perpetuate the
> > stigma around such illnesses.
>

> Wrong. The point IS about religion, combined with mental illness, and
> how the religious peers of people like this fail to recognize the
> situation for what it is, and how they may exacerbate the situation by
> treating it with more religion.

>
> > What this man did wasn't because of a
> > conviction in God, it was because he is mentally ill, a diagnosed
> > schizophrenic out-patient,
>

> Again. He did this because of schizophrenia combined with religion.
> And he wasn't diagnosed as a schizophrenic until the trial. Why are
> you making stuff up about me and about the case?

>
> > claiming to hear voices is a prime symptom
> > of schizoprenia and when you have to weigh up the motives for such a
> > crime the illness will take a natural precedence above religious
> > excuses because religion is completely bankrupt of any power in the
> > realms of criminal law, medical authority or public protection all of
> > which are implied and of an actual priority to this case.
>

> Strawman. You are certainly not arguing with anything I said.

>
> > Some of the effects that schizophrenia sufferers deal with are a
> > higher suicide and substance abuse rate, a 10-12 year lower life
> > expectancy and long-term unemployment, poverty and homelessness.
> > Religion is markedly different to mental health (which falls under the
> > domain of science-not religion) and the argument that religion is
> > involved in such crimes is aiming below the belt.
>

> Here, let me quote from the article again:

>
> "Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> evil."
>

> I think it's pointless for you to argue that God has nothing to do
> with religion.

[Bob Crowley]

It's obvious your experience of churches is pretty limited. Most
churches know full well the value of modern medicine and have for
quite a long time.

On your comment, there's a link here to an interview with Father Paul
Barrajo, a Catholic exorcist. You'll note that the first port of call
for any request for exorcism is psychiatric treatment. Only after
that, in a small minority of cases, is exorcism used.

http://www.signandsight.com/features/530.html

> > > about science and medicine.  Not that psych meds are any fun to take.- Hide quoted text -

[Stonethatbleeds]

thank you for showing no links what so ever with religions and
dellusions are what you are TOLD and make up from lack of being told
the right answers... or given too many answers then told to choose the
one you WANT... religions play not a role in dellusions... lies do!


On Mar 7, 10:57 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sat, Mar 7, 2009 at 9:28 AM, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> > > This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> > > misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> > > belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> > > heinous crime?
>
> > Didn't you read the article? Didn't you read the title of this thread?
>
> > "Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> > responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> > God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> > evil."
>
> > The prosecution, the defense, and I all agree, and the judge ruled,
> > that it was a COMBINATION of schizophrenia and religion that caused
> > him to commit this crime.
>

> Liar said:
>
>
>
> > > The argument against religion is entrenched on this thread with
> > > complete lack of persective so I don't expect to change peoples minds
> > > but I feel the notion that religious belief is a form of mental
> > > illness is utterly ridiculous and risible.
>

> > Neil said:
> > That's fine, because that's not what I said, genius. Although I would
> > say that all religious belief is at least delusional, which is
> > neurotic.
>

> Trance said:
>
> Further to the above point, you might find this study interesting Neil.
>
> It evaluates the existence of delusion in the non-clinical population.
> (people who are not considered clinically mentally ill but are considered
> delusional).
>
> "Delusions have long been considered a hallmark of psychotic disorders such
> as schizophrenia. However, delusions may only be most visibly present in
> psychotic conditions and could also occur in nonclinical groups. The aim of
> this review is to establish whether delusions, as traditionally considered
> and assessed in psychiatric conditions, are also present in individuals
> without a psychiatric or neurologic condition.
>
> Clear evidence is found that the rate of delusional beliefs in the general
> population is higher than the rate of psychotic disorders and that delusions
> occur in individuals without psychosis. The frequency of delusional beliefs
> in nonclinical populations varies according to the content of the delusion
> studied and the characteristics of the sample population.
>
> ***
>
> There is convincing evidence that delusional ideation, delusions, and
> clinically severe delusions are related experiences. Information about
> clinical delusions can therefore be obtained by studying delusional ideation
> in nonclinical populations. "
>
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/k2g2522123871261/

> > > > a huge mistake, and is costing innocent lives.- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>

[Stonethatbleeds]

all sides argued not religion at all but mental illness..to claim
other is to lie! religions play no role in any mental illness! The
person could of claim napoleon or Hitler ot his dog told him and
concepts of being hunted chased or evil attacking is common to most of
the poor victims of this terrible sickness that he is a VICTIM of and
some here do not see him as a VICTIM and so make me sick to see the
Hitler SS mindset trying to make a sick person linked to a religion
when it is not a religious based or even concept related.
If he said his dog said to him to do it I, I am sure some bozo still
would try to make it religion';s fault he had metal illness. it is the
low class of fools we get here.




On Mar 7, 12:39 pm, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
> I respect your opinion but something isn't right in the way you put
> religion and mental illness together, it's a strange and ruinous
> amalgamation of irreconcilable things!
>
> I'm not in any way defending the actions of Mr. Vince Li to redeem
> religion because as far as I am concerned if it's bad it ain't the
> true definition of religion but it's important to isolate one factor
> from another.
>
> I hope you don't think religion is akin to mental illness, with all
> due respect I am not totally convinced that you really believe
> religion endows mental illness and is the catalist between a life long
> undetectable ill-mind and uncontrolled mania like Jekyll & Hyde.

>
> On 7 Mar, 14:28, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> > > misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> > > belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> > > heinous crime?
>
> > Didn't you read the article? Didn't you read the title of this thread?
>

> ***Actually no I didn't, I read another article about it in the
> Telegraph but I will read it, it's on the first page of this thread***

>
>
>
> > "Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> > responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> > God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> > evil."
>

> ***But if you believe God has a consistant character (unless it's the
> character that Dawkins lists in the opening of Chapter 2 of The God
> Delusion 'The God Hypothesis') then in no way does he encourage murder
> of the most savage kind and the 'force for evil' sounds like a line
> from Star Wars***

>
>
>
> > The prosecution, the defense, and I all agree, and the judge ruled,
> > that it was a COMBINATION of schizophrenia and religion that caused
> > him to commit this crime.
>

> > > The argument against religion is entrenched on this thread with
> > > complete lack of persective so I don't expect to change peoples minds
> > > but I feel the notion that religious belief is a form of mental
> > > illness is utterly ridiculous and risible.
>

> > That's fine, because that's not what I said, genius. Although I would
> > say that all religious belief is at least delusional, which is
> > neurotic.
>

> ***Well there you have deduced the same conclusion that religion,
> being delusional is therefore neurotic which means an inclination to
> negative emotional states (but that does not necesaarily affect
> rational thought)***

>
>
>
>
>
> > > When a clinically ill person, suffering from the altered state of
> > > reality and multiple personalities of schizophrenia, murders and
> > > cannibalises someone in a terrfiying frenzied attack only to later
> > > cite their reason as 'God told me to do it' and you then accept their
> > > (ill) reasoning as justification for murder this undermines the medics
> > > who diagnosed him and undermines the ongoing trials of science into
> > > neurobiology (the study of cell circuits within the nervous sytem
> > > which control and regulate behaviour) and another key strand-genetics
> > > and hereditary factors through natural selection.
>
> > Since I said it was a combination of the two (schizophrenia and
> > religion) you can save your indignation. What I did question, however,
> > is how much responisibility their religious peers should take, since
> > there are countless incidents like this in which mentally ill people
> > don't get competent help because they are being insulated by people
> > who would rather treat them with prayers and exorcisms. I maintain
> > that religious "care" only exacerbates the problem.
>

> ***I don't know how where to begin addressing this last paragraph,
> this idea of prayer completely usurping medical science or this case,
> psychological treatment is wrong and you know it, nobody that I (or
> undoubtedly-you or anyone) know of who calls themself a Christian
> would supplant the stringent, tested and proven methods of science
> with prayer, discreet prayer may well go alongside medical care but it
> would never, ever replace it.
>
>  Religion, by it's v.nature is so mysterious that sometimes the only
> way to give it some evidence is through the wicked end times, the
> defiant cries of a suicide bomber, the pleas of a burning heretic, the
> shell-shock of a holy war but prayer is one example of a small
> countless gesture of good will which can't be inverted into bad,
> however you look at it. No Christian would force a patients palms
> together and as for exorcisms, they are the preserve of the wealthy
> who think they have poltergeists, you are basically saying that a
> schizophrenic person would be 'treated' by a priest or monk exorcist
> to banish evil spirits from the afflicted person? Do YOU even believe
> that? If you see them in the Yellow Pages they'll specialise in houses
> not people and since they have been banned by the R.C Church, they'll
> be fakes too***
>
>
>
> ***Besides religion is a community and chances are, being human BEFORE
> we are religious, the spiritual community would not welcome a clearly
> unhinged person or sit next to him on the pews, are we immune to
> natural fear? and what is there to pray for when an innocent man has
> been decapitated and the man, Mr. Li has pocketed his tongue, nose and
> ear. Don't we pray for victims-not crims-anyway?***

>
> > > Religion may or may not have been his motivation (religion is entirely
> > > without substance and therefore becomes redundant to the matter)
>
> > Religion is not without substance - if you have a disease of the mind,
> > and you are being fed a diseased thoughts like those found in
> > Christianity, of course the problem will get worse.
>

> ***Religion is not a diseased thought(s), it's a belief and beliefs
> are v.general and constantly varying things***

>
>
>
> > And of course religion was his motivation - God was telling him that
> > the guy on the bus was going to kill him. God told him to get on the
> > bus. God told him to kill a guy in a truck the previous night (the
> > truck driver fortunately drove off, without knowing what God had
> > planned for him). If this schizophrenic had no concept of God, or
> > understood that the concept of God was ludicrous, then he would not
> > have killed anyone because God told him to.
>

> ***You probably don't mean to but you've just repeatedly asserted
> God's existance, in an attempt to underline your point of belief in
> God being the clinching motivation in an unsettled mind you've
> technically reinstated God "God was telling him" "God told him" etc,
> I'm not trying to mock you but this is one curious feature of atheism,
> when Dawkins describes God as "Jealous and proud of it, a petty,
> unjust, unforgiving control freak; a vindictive, bloodthristy ethnic
> cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, genocidal' etc, etc. All
> those words are supporting the idea of a vengeful God, but a God
> nonetheless just as war is chalked up to religious stupidity and
> atheists claim it goes against the teachings of a God we are supposed
> to obey and thus reinstate, redress, correct a Godless act***

>
>
>
> > > but
> > > we do know he was a schizophrenic and this makes his illness the alpha
> > > and omega of his actions
>
> > Wrong. It was a combination of schizophrenia and religion.
>

> ***Religion is a concept, just a concept. Blaming religion for a
> schizophrenic fit is like blaming society or some other collective
> buzz word***

>
>
>
>
>
> > > and I also support the decision that he
> > > cannot be held accountable,
>
> > So do I.
>
> > > I find it troubling that any of you would
> > > contest that he should be held to full account since you think the God
> > > excuse could only be made a devious Christian with a get-out clause.
>
> > I didn't say that, did I, genius?
>
> > > The point is not about religion here, it's about mental health and how
> > > it can spiral into such barbaric deeds which in turn perpetuate the
> > > stigma around such illnesses.
>
> > Wrong. The point IS about religion, combined with mental illness, and
> > how the religious peers of people like this fail to recognize the
> > situation for what it is, and how they may exacerbate the situation by
> > treating it with more religion.
>

> ***Religion is not a treatment, it is customary to pray for a needy
> person but that doesn't compromise or interfere with any actual
> treatment they may recieve. Instead of suggesting that Vince Li was
> mollycoddled by the Christians of his community and that when his odd
> behaviour raised suspicions he was taken back into the fold and simply
> told to pray harder to oust 'voices' or praised when he heard 'God's
> voice' doesn't it seem more likely that this man was a loner and that
> the religious community of no set place but a Canadian Highway journey
> at night (perhaps the reflections of the passengers in the windows in
> the darkness was enough to disorientate him) had no responsibility or
> guilty party in the fenzied murder, Mr. Li also believed the body
> would come back to life and begged police officers to kill him***

>
>
>
> > > What this man did wasn't because of a
> > > conviction in God, it was because he is mentally ill, a diagnosed
> > > schizophrenic out-patient,
>
> > Again. He did this because of schizophrenia combined with religion.
> > And he wasn't diagnosed as a schizophrenic until the trial. Why are
> > you making stuff up about me and about the case?
>

> ***I'm not trying to make stuff up about you or distort what you said,
> but I would like to know HOW religion played a role in this, you've
> already said religion exacerbates mental illness but when you say it
> was a combination of schizophrenia and religion how is the religious
> half responsible exactly? How does religion avert real medical care?
> ***

>
>
>
> > > claiming to hear voices is a prime symptom
> > > of schizoprenia and when you have to weigh up the motives for such a
> > > crime the illness will take a natural
>

> ...
>
> read more »

[Cormagh]

On Mar 7, 11:41 pm, Stonethatbleeds <fb...@ncf.ca> wrote:
> proving you are willing to think to hate religions for the common god
> name used by such sick people as well as other famous names of power
> they claim in insanity... by any name the God they give themselves
> still speaks and they still claim to hear it! So you are exposed as
> evil trying to blame religions for the sickness common to all human
> kinds, nations and lands... you are but evil that speaks, and the
> truth, you hide from to do it.

No, actually just the evil of religious wars (all of them), religious
predjudice, and the worst cases of psychosis, including mass
murderers, etc. Without religion there is still injustice, but less
self-righteousness and indoctirnated mythology should cut down on the
psychological harm to a marked degree.

We must agree to disagree on the commonality of evil. With few
exceptions, the worst cases of war and prejudice in history all come
from lands marked as Islamic, Christian or Hebrew.

As one example, in one of the worst cases of genocide in history, Pol
Pot, originally a Cambodian Buddhist who became a Christian, and then
a Communist, was apparently inspired by his successive "conversions"
to kill millions of Buddhists. Stalin, another one of the great
murderers of the 20th century, attended seminary school almost to the
college level, but was finally thown out for bad behavior immediately
before graduation. I've had this case argued that at least the good
Orthodox authorities had the common sense to expel him, but Stalin's
documented paranoia reminds one so well of Tomas de Torquemada's
burning of thousands at the stake.

Cormagh

> > Cormagh- Hide quoted text -

[Dag Yo]

You missed my point. Churches aren't run by people with the ability
to critically examine claims or an education in basic biology much
less psychiatry. Church-going goofballs are all too quick give
encouragement to anyone who claims to have seen miracles, experienced
supernatural thoughts, or just plain heard the word of God. Mental
illnesses are caused by natural processes and can be treated actual
medicine. Churches aren't able to provide to the treatment that
mentally ill people need, and they can very easily make things worse
by misinterpreting what they see and not seeking proper treatment.

On Mar 7, 9:03 pm, Bob Crowley <bobcrow...@acenet.net.au> wrote:
> That's a load of garbage. Schizophrenia, with it's attendant
> delusions, would exist whether or not churches existed. A very small
> minority of schizophrenics would do criminal acts,: most would end up
> harming themselves or be taken advantage of by others. When I first
> became a Christian there was a hostel not far from the church, where
> several schizophrenics lived. Some of them used to come to the church
> because it was one of the few places where they felt some acceptance.
> By and large society doesn't accept them very well. And the extreme
> case of multiple personalities became overly advertised due to
> Hollywood. Most of them are not like that.
>

[Cormagh]

On Mar 8, 12:36 am, Stonethatbleeds <fb...@ncf.ca> wrote:
> Bullshit!
> The concept of good and evil is common to all Humans and 85% and more
> of the WORLD has a god concept and the rest too dumb to know they
> serve man made Gods like in the USA were Gods are corporations and
> companies with more than human rights and yet do not have life in all
> the power they demand with all the counterfeit money the US of A has
> produced since 1913 to cheat in the buying and selling to fake a
> economy that is now in ruins and cause of the next world war or
> collapse of capitalism so extreme it all is. Man made gods that rule
> the fate of the people is exactly what gods with a little G on them
> is... so no such thing as real Atheist on this planet... so to claim a
> person that is INSaNE to say "GOD" is common to all humans on the
> planet as a word... means not a religious link on any level... your
> evil to think so does!

Are you getting treatment?

> On Mar 5, 4:10 pm, philosophy <smwil...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Sorry Neil - pressed the button too soon.
> > There are many people in our society who suffer with
> > mental illness, who do know right from wrong, and who
> > don't cause problems for others, who are sometimes
> > medicated to help them.  Many of these sufferers are
> > contributing members of society, and should be
> > supported by society in return.
> > Religious nutters who justify their actions of violence
> > based on their religious beliefs should be looked after
> > by the churches they belong to ie their medical
> > expenses should be paid for by their church.

> > > a huge mistake, and is costing innocent lives.- Hide quoted text -

[Cormagh]

On Mar 8, 12:38 am, Stonethatbleeds <fb...@ncf.ca> wrote:
> Stop the lies!
> The history books are full of proof you are lying!

What proof? You should state specifically what you are referring to.

> in fact all the history books call you a liar!

History books can't talk, so they can't call people names, like you
can. When you call people names on a news group, it only proves that
you are alive, which is pathetic; there are so many better ways you
could be spending your time alive.

> All but one Prophet were proof of very sane logical well educated
> people and just one Prophet is known to be as you say... and I will
> not even say that filthy thing's name so great is it's sin.
>
> On Mar 5, 5:43 pm, rappoccio <rappoc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Huge agreement here. Very often, the mentally ill are mistaken for
> > some "prophet" or as some communication with "God", when in fact, they
> > are just having paranoid delusions. This happens all the time. Very
> > often, these types are diagnosed as having said mental illness, but
> > then upon that diagnosis, just claim absurdities like psychiatry isn't
> > science and other such nonsense, since they can't accept they have a
> > mental illness.- Hide quoted text -

[Bob Crowley]

How was Stalin's documented paranoia indicative of his seminary
training? Most dictators are paranoid - that's why they build up huge
networks of informers and surround themselves with bodyguards, and
have done throughout history.

What religion motivated Genghis Khan? The Vikings? Shaka Zulu?
Alexander the Great? The Assyrians? The Babylonians? Tribal wars?
The Mafia? As far as I'm concerned these movements all have a feature
of some dominant personality who wishes to make everybody else
subservient to him. The motivations might be different, but it's the
same old story over and over.

Luke 22:25 'But he said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it
over them; and those in authority over them are called benefactors.
But not so with you...."

The tyrants and great murderers have always lorded it over other
people, and then expected the people to call them "friends of the
people".

So what's new?

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Jerusa nzongo]

Hope u all watched exorcism of emily rose(true story) its al demons
that only prayer can heal

[Trance Gemini]

On Sun, Mar 8, 2009 at 3:43 AM, Stonethatbleeds <fb...@ncf.ca> wrote:

what is wrong with you people? Too low of an IQ to know he will never
be free? too stupid to know the ways we do things on this planet past
your noses? What kind of evil is in you to even think such things is
beyond me... to not know he got a life sentence and to point to
religions is revolting to see!

 

Stoney when one is in a mental hospital under psychiatric because one has murdered someone there is no guarantee that they will not be released.

 

I know that because when I was growing up my neighbor's son slaughtered his sister, my sisters best friend.

 

He was Catholic, from a deeply religious family and told everyone God told him to do it. He had been planning the murder for a year and had told people he was going to do it.

 

After he was arrested he was diagnosed as schizophrenic and placed in a psychiatric hospital. Twice during the time he was there he was being considered for release into the community and it was only because his family objected that he remained. They and my sister were quite rightly terrified of him. In addition, every time the question of release came up he would discreetly start playing with knives again despite the strong medication he was taking.

 

This is why I say that if someone murders someone and is diagnosed as mentally ill and then determined to be well enough to be released, they are also well enough to be held accountable for their actions. Either that or they should not be released.

 

Psychiatry shouldn't be used as a Get of Jail Free card.

 

On Mar 5, 7:10 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 5, 2009 at 2:50 PM, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > "WINNIPEG, Manitoba - A Canadian judge ruled Thursday that a man
> > accused of beheading and cannibalizing a fellow Greyhound bus
> > passenger is not criminally responsible due to mental illness.
>

> I wouldn't have a problem with this If there was a requirement that he
> remain in a mental hospital.
>
> Unfortunately all it would take is one shrink to say he can be released and
> off he goes.

>
>
>
>
>
> > The decision means Chinese immigrant Vince Li will be treated in a
> > mental institution instead of going to prison. The victim's family
> > dismissed the trial as a "rubber stamp" that allows Li to get away
> > with murder.
>
> > The judge said Li should not be held criminally accountable for
> > stabbing Tim McLean dozens of times last July and dismembering his
> > body while horrified passengers fled. Both the prosecution and the
> > defense had also argued Li can't be held responsible because he is
> > mentally ill.
>
> > Justice John Scurfield said Li's attack was "grotesque" and "barbaric"
> > but "strongly suggestive of a mental disorder."
>
> > "He did not appreciate the actions he committed were morally wrong. He
> > believed he was acting in self-defense," Scurfield said.
>
> > Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> > responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> > God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> > evil."
>
> > At what point do the religious bear some responsibility for acts like
> > these (and they are countless)? Instead of recognizing mentally ill
> > people for what they are and steering them towards proper treatment,
> > it often turns out that their religious peers (who know they are
> > troubled) treat them with prayer and provoke them into dangerous
> > episodes.
>

> Yes. This is a serious problem.

>
> > I have a schizophrenic sister who is an atheist, and she is
> > gentle as a lamb - I'm not saying her example can be applied to
> > everyone, but I am sure that keeping schizophrenics et al away from
> > psychologists because the religious regard psychology as "quackery" is
> > a huge mistake, and is costing innocent lives.
>

> I agree! Your sister is probably doing well because she has proper
> psychiatric care and has probably had it on a regular basis.
>
> Most schizophrenics are gentle, especially when they are receiving proper
> treatment.
>
> It's when the psychosis and delusions kick in that they can become
> dangerous. Proper mental health care can prevent this.
>
>
>
> --

[hucktunes]

On Mar 8, 3:26 am, Cormagh <cookl...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> History books can't talk, so they can't call people names, like you
> can.

Stoney's house must be like Pee Wee's Playhouse.http://
www.peewee.com/

[kenandkids]

no i don't think he is =-(

[kenandkids]

the best method is to hold them in the psych ward until found
competent, at that point let prison begin. no credit for good time and
no parole for the "insane".

[Nicole]

This is a few points in reponse to your earlier posts;

Vince Li never claimed to be religious, when you assume he was an
active member of the church and that his condition was fostered by the
Christian community who you say knowingly replaced correct medical
treatment with 'pointless' prayer this is without evidence, purely
circumstantial and therefore secondary to his schizophrenic diagnosis.

The voice of God didn't 'tell' him to decap and cann this man (not a
kid) it 'told' him the man was evil, this is classic schizo mental
dialogue and should be recognised for the symptom it is. When you say
religion is implied, even slightly, you detract from the gravity of
schizo which is what you are saying the Christian community have done.

I would argue that spirituality and faith are inherent in human nature
without the precepts of religion. The statement that people are not
born religious is speculative as there has never been a time in
history that religion hasn't been present (though I grant children
have been raised in secular societies).

A meme is an invented word meaning cultural unit or trait coined by
Dawkins in 1976 for which there is no emphirical evidence yet he stil
asserts is true in a figurative sense. A cultural habit may actually
off-set more common types of mental illness such as depression by
promoting a sense of positive communal bonds (quite different from the
torment and isolation of m.illness).

There is some ground against conventional medicine in Scientology at
least at first glance, it's founder L. Ron Hubbard preaches that the
body can be cleansed of pain without the aid of drugs via the
'spirit', L.Ron also said that setting up a religion was 'the easiest
way to get rich'. Fortunately, his 'religion' bears more resemblance
to a self-help book than the complex, diverse, biographical, multi
faceted and time santified doctrines of real religions.

There are holistic treatments which are self-sought as apposed to G.P
referred but where there is genuine detriment to a persons life (or
other peoples lives) then medical care is the only viable option. How
do you reason, against all evidence presented by Darwin that a species
must adapt to survive (which is partly why we develop cultural habits
which bond and protect) why would anyone religious or otherwise deny a
person health and endangers their own and others lives in the process?
And how could members of the christian community (if he was part of
one) be expected to seek help psychiatric (treatment of mental
disorder) not psychologist (study of mental processes) on his behalf
if Mr. Li's own G.P could not spot it?


On 8 Mar, 00:26, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 7, 4:06 pm, kenandkids <kenandk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > don't forget neil, that while mental illness CAN be genetic, it isn't
> > always. mental illness, much like religion, can develope and often
> > does.
>
> Certain categories of mental illness, like schizophrenia, ARE genetic,
> and they often develop (start to manifest) in the late teens. Although
> someone without the disease can be religious and adopt similar
> behaviours (a lot of people were decapitated during the Inquisition,
> for instance) I think it is just heterogenous behaviour -  same
> behaviour, different causes. I would throw Inquisitors in prison, but
> I would give religious schizophrenics psychiatric treatment - for
> similar crimes.
>
>
>
> > On Mar 7, 12:53 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> > > On Mar 7, 8:39 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > > I respect your opinion but something isn't right in the way you put
> > > > religion and mental illness together, it's a strange and ruinous
> > > > amalgamation of irreconcilable things!
>

> > > I am not putting religion and mental illness together - it is simply a
> > > fact that there are mentally ill people (schizophrenics, psychopaths,
> > > manic depressives, sociopaths) who are also religious.

>
> > > > I'm not in any way defending the actions of Mr. Vince Li to redeem
> > > > religion
>

> > > But you are distancing the actions of Mr. Li to disassociate him from
> > > religion to redeem religion.

>
> > > > because as far as I am concerned if it's bad it ain't the
> > > > true definition of religion but it's important to isolate one factor
> > > > from another.
>

> > > The true definition of religion, in this sense, is belief in a
> > > supernatural deity. Mr Li had this belief and he believed God was
> > > instructing him to decapitate and cannibalize this poor kid.

>
> > > > I hope you don't think religion is akin to mental illness,
>

> > > I will say this loud and clear, with the dim hope that you will read
> > > it for comprehension: I think/know mental illnesses like schizophrenic
> > > are genetic. People are not born religious, so religion is not
> > > genetic. So, religion is not akin to mental illness. But religion is a
> > > meme that can mimic mental illness, in that it puts a believer out of
> > > touch with reality. But I think (from firsthand observations) that
> > > there is a qualitative difference between the genetic version of being
> > > out of touch and the acquired version of being out of touch.

>
> > > > with all
> > > > due respect I am not totally convinced that you really believe
> > > > religion endows mental illness
>

> > > Good for you, BECAUSE I NEVER SAID THAT IN THE FIRST PLACE. Do you go
> > > through life with people yelling at you a lot?

>
> > > > and is the catalist between a life long
> > > > undetectable ill-mind and uncontrolled mania like Jekyll & Hyde.
>

> > > That is several galaxies away from what I think or what I said. You
> > > really need English comprehension lessons.

>
> > > > On 7 Mar, 14:28, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > On Mar 6, 6:28 am, Nicole <paper_n...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > > > > > This is a grossly unfair athesit fundamentalist argument and badly
> > > > > > misrepresents religious belief. Are you seriously saying that it was a
> > > > > > belief in God that inspired, motivated and ultimately led to this
> > > > > > heinous crime?
>
> > > > > Didn't you read the article? Didn't you read the title of this thread?
>
> > > > ***Actually no I didn't, I read another article about it in the
> > > > Telegraph but I will read it, it's on the first page of this thread***
>

> > > Then isn't there a lesson in here somewhere for you? As in, "don't
> > > speak out your ass?"

>
> > > > > "Both the prosecution and the defense argued Li can't be held
> > > > > responsible because Li was suffering from schizophrenia and believed
> > > > > God wanted him to kill McLean because the young man was a force of
> > > > > evil."
>

> > > > ***But if you believe God has a consistant character (unless it's the
> > > > character that Dawkins lists in the opening of Chapter 2 of The God
> > > > Delusion 'The God Hypothesis') then in no way does he encourage murder
> > > > of the most savage kind and the 'force for evil' sounds like a line
> > > > from Star Wars***
>

> > > Hey. Genius. I am an atheist. I LACK BELIEF THAT GOD EXISTS. Just
> > > because I seem to have to connect the dots for you, that means that I
> > > don't think God has any character at all, beyond that of a fictional
> > > (FICTIONAL) character in a book of fiction (FICTION). And if you read
> > > the book of fiction called the Bible, the God character DOES encourage
> > > murder (and he condemns it too, just so the Believer has the entire
> > > smorgasboard of justifications at his disposal), so a schizophrenic
> > > CAN read the Bible and acquire a voice that says "I am God, decapitate
> > > and eat that guy."

>
> > > > > The prosecution, the defense, and I all agree, and the judge ruled,
> > > > > that it was a COMBINATION of schizophrenia and religion that caused
> > > > > him to commit this crime.
>

> > > Why didn't you comment on this?

>
> > > > > > The argument against religion is entrenched on this thread with
> > > > > > complete lack of persective so I don't expect to change peoples minds
> > > > > > but I feel the notion that religious belief is a form of mental
> > > > > > illness is utterly ridiculous and risible.
>
> > > > > That's fine, because that's not what I said, genius. Although I would
> > > > > say that all religious belief is at least delusional, which is
> > > > > neurotic.
>
> > > > ***Well there you have deduced the same conclusion that religion,
> > > > being delusional is therefore neurotic which means an inclination to
> > > > negative emotional states (but that does not necesaarily affect
> > > > rational thought)***
>

> > > Did I say that delusion is an "inclanation to negative emotional
> > > states?" Did I? Where?
>
> > > You REALLY need to look up what a Strawman argument is, and try to
> > > understand what it means, because you commit this fallacy on a
> > > constant basis, and it makes you appear stupid and dishonest. Is that
> > > what you're aiming for?

>
> > > > > > When a clinically ill person, suffering from the altered state of
> > > > > > reality and multiple personalities of schizophrenia, murders and
> > > > > > cannibalises someone in a terrfiying frenzied attack only to later
> > > > > > cite their reason as 'God told me to do it' and you then accept their
> > > > > > (ill) reasoning as justification for murder this undermines the medics
> > > > > > who diagnosed him and undermines the ongoing trials of science into
> > > > > > neurobiology (the study of cell circuits within the nervous sytem
> > > > > > which control and regulate behaviour) and another key strand-genetics
> > > > > > and hereditary factors through natural selection.
>
> > > > > Since I said it was a combination of the two (schizophrenia and
> > > > > religion) you can save your indignation. What I did question, however,
> > > > > is how much responisibility their religious peers should take, since
> > > > > there are countless incidents like this in which mentally ill people
> > > > > don't get competent help because they are being insulated by people
> > > > > who would rather treat them with prayers and exorcisms. I maintain
> > > > > that religious "care" only exacerbates the problem.
>
> > > > ***I don't know how where to begin addressing this last paragraph,
> > > > this idea of prayer completely usurping medical science or this case,
>

> > > I did not say that prayer usurped medical science. It doesn't. But
> > > many many many religious people think it does. Have you not ever heard
> > > the countless number of religious people say through the media that
> > > psychology is evil/dangerous/quackery? When all psychology is is the
> > > study of the mind? How about Tom Cruise, for example? How about Joe
> > > the Catholic? I hear this same protest from the religious all the
> > > time.

>
> > > > psychological treatment is wrong and you know it,
>

> > > Hey. Don't pretend to speak for me. The relgious discourage, avoid,
> > > and condemn psychological treatment by default. There are of course
> > > many exceptions, and in this modern age of communications it is pretty
> > > hard to maintain that prayer and exorcisms work, but nevertheless,
> > > this belief is still widespread.

>
> > > > nobody that I (or
> > > > undoubtedly-you or anyone) know of who calls themself a Christian
> > > > would supplant the stringent, tested and proven methods of science
> > > > with prayer, discreet prayer may well go alongside medical care but it
> > > > would never, ever replace it.
>

> > > Do not ever speak for me, you're not qualified.
>
> > > In fact, there are people I know/have known that call themselves
> > > religious (including Christians) who use medical care as a last
> > > resort, and even when they do, attribute any benefits received from
> > > the medical care to God. You are living in some fantasy world.

>
> > > >  Religion, by it's v.nature is so mysterious
>

> > > Religion is not mysterious. At all. There is no evidence that God
> > > exists, so the stories are simply untrue. Religion is there to fulfill
> > > the neurotic needs and alleviate the neurotic fears of gullible
> > > wishful thinkers, and it is there as a tool for the more predatory
> > > amongst us to prey upon these gullible dupes. But there's nothing
> > > mysterious about it.

>
> > > > that sometimes the only
> > > > way to give it some evidence is through the wicked end times,
>

> > > That's not evidence that God exists.

>
> > > > the defiant cries of a suicide bomber,
>

> > > That's not evidence that God exists.

>
> > > > the pleas of a burning heretic,
>

> > > That's not evidence that God exists.

>
> > > > the shell-shock of a holy war
>

> > > That's not evidence that God exists.

>
> > > > but prayer is one example of a
>

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[Stonethatbleeds]

liar fool it is money that makes all wars not religions! go check each
war in history and you will find the money greed in all of them...
merchants make wars and politicians make wars religions stop wars and
prevent wars...try to get things right before you speak.

[LJL]

On Mar 8, 2:55 am, Bob Crowley <bobcrow...@acenet.net.au> wrote:
> It's obvious your experience of churches is pretty limited.  Most
> churches know full well the value of modern medicine and have for
> quite a long time.

LL: I was raised in the Catholic Church by a father who was quite
devout. I went to church every Sunday and sometimes more often until I
was and adult and out of the house.

*******************************************************

[Stonethatbleeds]

we do not know what you are talking about...lies on lies make no
truths.

[LJL]

On Mar 8, 3:33 am, Bob Crowley <bobcrow...@acenet.net.au> wrote:
> How was Stalin's documented paranoia indicative of his seminary
> training?  Most dictators are paranoid - that's why they build up huge
> networks of informers and surround themselves with bodyguards, and
> have done throughout history.
>
> What religion motivated Genghis Khan?  The Vikings?  Shaka Zulu?
> Alexander the Great?  The Assyrians?  The Babylonians?  Tribal wars?
> The Mafia?

LL: The Mafia was and is definitely involved in the Catholic Church.
Whether it motivates them, I don't know, you'd have to ask them--but
they certainly aren't deterred by it. Most of them go to Church and
pray for success in their endeavors.

As for the others, they were motivated by their religion, whatever it
was. It doesn't have to be Christianity to make the point. Like Mafia
members, though nothing in their religion deters them from their evil
acts.

************************************

[Stonethatbleeds]

no dummy prove religions is responsible for wars and not money for you
claim the lie and now must prove your lies to be truth but can't
because all wars are about money land and greed not religions in fact
almost no wars are about religions.

[Stonethatbleeds]

Capitalism motivated them all!
why do you think other than the facts of history? You insane to think
other than gold and money and land? Not one single example you give
has religion of any lkind leading them to war.
ALL OF THEM ARE FOR LANDS GREED AND PROFIT..not religions!

[Stonethatbleeds]

not even the Vatican claims she was possessed... we even know the
exact sickness she suffered... so no possession cases exist in the
Vatican today... all of them studied and exposed.


On Mar 8, 6:39 am, Jerusa nzongo <jerusanzo...@gmail.com> wrote: