Why don't atheist Jews criticize the faith of religious Jews
ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com>to the same extent, or with the same verve, that we see ex-Christians
criticizing the faith of Christians?
Think
<teddybear2@bellsouth.net>the factual existence of god. Religion is tribal. Man is tribal.
Choose your tribe or it will be chosen for you.
On Jan 14, 11:11 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
e_space
<espace1984@gmail.com>as prolifically as AvsC?
On Jan 14, 11:11 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Drafterman
<drafterman@gmail.com>On Jan 14, 11:11 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Bill A
<williamangel999@hotmail.com>after the "holocaust".
Many Zionists were also atheists.
Another area to investigate is current Israeli politics, which can pit
ultra orthodox Jews against their more secular brethren.
On Jan 14, 4:11 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>You might investigate the history of the Zionist movement, especially
after the "holocaust".
Just curious Bill. Why do you put the holocaust in quotes?
Many Zionists were also atheists.
Another area to investigate is current Israeli politics, which can pit
ultra orthodox Jews against their more secular brethren.
On Jan 14, 4:11 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Why don't we see atheist Jews criticizing the faith of religious Jews
> to the same extent, or with the same verve, that we see ex-Christians
> criticizing the faith of Christians?
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
To post to this group, send email to atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
--
-------------------------
"Belief shuts the mind and inquiry opens it." --Observer
Demagogue: "one who will preach doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots." -- H.L. Mencken.
Imagination: "He who has imagination without learning has wings but no feet." ~Joseph Joubert
George Chalkin
<georgechalkin@gmail.com>> to the same extent, or with the same verve, that we see ex-Christians
> criticizing the faith of Christians?
>
necessarliy confined to the non-religious.
>
On Jan 14, 8:11 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
Bill A
<williamangel999@hotmail.com>meant to indicate that the term has a special meaning with respect to
Jewish history. In point of fact, there have been serious instances of
mass murder affecting other ethnic groups that could also be referred
to as holocausts. I was not attempting to place the word in some sort
of derisive context, as would be the case if I were a "holocaust-
denier". In this instance I DO mean to imply on my part a derisive
attitude towards those who assert that the annihilation of the Jews in
Europe did not happen.
On Jan 14, 1:14 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Bill A <williamangel...@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> > You might investigate the history of the Zionist movement, especially
> > after the "holocaust".
>
> Just curious Bill. Why do you put the holocaust in quotes?
>
>
>
>
>
> > Many Zionists were also atheists.
> > Another area to investigate is current Israeli politics, which can pit
> > ultra orthodox Jews against their more secular brethren.
>
> > On Jan 14, 4:11 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
> > <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Why don't we see atheist Jews criticizing the faith of religious Jews
> > > to the same extent, or with the same verve, that we see ex-Christians
> > > criticizing the faith of Christians?
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
>
> --
> -------------------------
> "Belief shuts the mind and inquiry opens it." --Observer
>
> Demagogue: "one who will preach doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he
> knows to be idiots." -- H.L. Mencken.
>
> Imagination: "He who has imagination without learning has wings but no
> feet." ~Joseph Joubert- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com>On Jan 14, 2:10 pm, Bill A <williamangel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, why I put the term in quotes is a good question. I just
> meant to indicate that the term has a special meaning with respect to
> Jewish history. In point of fact, there have been serious instances of
> mass murder affecting other ethnic groups that could also be referred
> to as holocausts. I was not attempting to place the word in some sort
> of derisive context, as would be the case if I were a "holocaust-
> denier". In this instance I DO mean to imply on my part a derisive
> attitude towards those who assert that the annihilation of the Jews in
> Europe did not happen.
In that case, you might want to call it <<"the" holocaust>> rather
than <<the "holocaust">>. This would indicate that to you, it is "a
holocaust" while to others it's "the holocaust". Putting it as <<the
"holocaust">> might tend have the unfortunate connotation that to you,
it's something other than a holocaust.
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>Actually, why I put the term in quotes is a good question. I just
meant to indicate that the term has a special meaning with respect to
Jewish history. In point of fact, there have been serious instances of
mass murder affecting other ethnic groups that could also be referred
to as holocausts. I was not attempting to place the word in some sort
of derisive context, as would be the case if I were a "holocaust-
denier". In this instance I DO mean to imply on my part a derisive
attitude towards those who assert that the annihilation of the Jews in
Europe did not happen.
Ah. Okay Thanks for the clarification.
I was confused for a moment but didn't want to make any assumptions so I thought I'd ask to be sure.
--
hucktunes
<bob.huck@gmail.com>god they don't deny the existence of the antiquity of the Jews or the
validity of their claim to Israel.
On Jan 14, 8:11 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>me, this is a contradiction. Judaism is a religion and not a race of
peoples. I understand that many people regard 'Jewishness' to be both
an ethnic and a religious descriptor, however I also thought that
claiming Jewish ethnicity, incorporates an acknowledgement of Jewish
religious practices.
Can anyone outline any non religious ethnic practices or cultural
mores that an atheist Jew participates in?
On Jan 15, 12:11 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
Medusa
<Medusa4303@yahoo.com>On Jan 14, 4:21 pm, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> I still continue to scratch my head about the term 'Atheist Jew'. To
> me, this is a contradiction. Judaism is a religion and not a race of
> peoples. I understand that many people regard 'Jewishness' to be both
> an ethnic and a religious descriptor, however I also thought that
> claiming Jewish ethnicity, incorporates an acknowledgement of Jewish
> religious practices.
I have met several people of Jewish ethnicity who are athesist. In
other words, they were born into the religion, as I was born to
Christian parents, but have rejected the religious portion of their
background.
> Can anyone outline any non religious ethnic practices or cultural
> mores that an atheist Jew participates in?
I would guess some of them do as I do; celebrate the holidays without
a belief in the religion.
As I still have a Christmas tree and celebrations with my family and
friends, they may still observe the Jewish holidays. One atheist of
Jewish descent I met still did not eat pork nor shellfish.
Medusa
>
> On Jan 15, 12:11 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
>
>
>
> <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Why don't we see atheist Jews criticizing the faith of religious Jews
> > to the same extent, or with the same verve, that we see ex-Christians
> > criticizing the faith of Christians?- Hide quoted text -
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>either. Just atheists. Yes, American, or Australian, or Canadian
atheist or even an Israeli atheist, if nationality helps the enquirer
further.
The contrast in my mind revolves around the blurring of descriptors.
You see, anyone can become a Jew if they convert to Judaism. It
doesn't matter what their race or nationality is. As an example, if I
converted to Judaism as a Chinese national, with Chinese ethnicity,
the only way I could articulate my Jewishness would be through the
practices of Judaic religious observances. But if I was an ethnic
Chinese son of a Chinese national who is a practicing Jew and I then
became an atheist by choice......then I'd just be an atheist wouldn't
I?
I mean, I couldn't claim to be an Atheist Jew as the only practices
I've spurned are religious (Judaism). Further, I'd likely follow the
cultural mores of my particular society, which may even include (like
it does in some parts of China now) Christmas trees and Santas etc.
But I'm just an atheist. Not a Atheist Jew.
Now the question arises, when considering Atheist Jews in Israel.
Jews from all around the world from many cultures and countries have
made Israel their home. National origins haven't dictated who claims
Israel as a homeland. It's been those migrants whose Jewishness
allowed them to settle in a 'Jewish nation state'. British, American,
Russian, Polish, Sudanese, Syrian, Arab, Italian etc etc, all with
differing national / cultural mores in evidence, but the binding
identifyers are Jewish cultural practices (read religious practices).
So in my mind, how else can one can link the cultures of diverse
peoples from such contrasting backgrounds other than through religious
observances.
This is why I can't get my head around the notion of an Atheist Jew.
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>"Defamation"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJo7LhSPJaY
It was made by an Israeli filmmaker who said that as he hadnt
experienced anti-semitism in his own life, but heard much about it
from powerful American jews, he wanted to explore the subject.
two opinions that i thought stood out (paraphrased)
An orthodox rabbi in Russia thought that the subject of anti-semitism
was much more important to non-religious jews, as the religious
community had their positive practises to bring them together, the non-
religious only had the negative "outgroup" perception as a glue.
The other was a left wing jewish academic and politician who wondered
whether the ADL (anti defamation league) was working for Israeli jews,
or whether the Israeli government was working for the ADL. He felt
that whenever a leftwing, nonexpansionist government was elected in
Israel, the level of support in USA fell away.
Its (IMO) a very good documentary and well worth a watch.
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
TLC
<tlc.terence@googlemail.com>Are you stupid? They do! Some of the best known atheist have a
jewish relation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Jewish_atheists
Now we'll see some christian headcases claiming atheism is a jewish
conspiracy!!
Bill A
<williamangel999@hotmail.com>"God-Optional Judaism:
Alternatives for Cultural Jews who love their History, Heritage,and
Community"
by Judith Seid
Citadel Press (2001)
www.kensingtonbooks.com
To quote from the book's cover:
"Teach you kids a Jewishness that celebrates the human spirit"
"Find your own place in the Jewish world- even if you don't believe in
God"
STB
<Savingthefuture@hotmail.com>
On Jan 14, 11:11 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 14, 8:11 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
LL: Why don't you ask them? I don't know of any Jews on this group,
though there could be some that don't identify themselves as Jews.
If there are any, I'd like to hear from them.
****************************************
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 14, 10:14 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 12:15 PM, Bill A <williamangel...@hotmail.com>wrote:
>
> > You might investigate the history of the Zionist movement, especially
> > after the "holocaust".
>
> Just curious Bill. Why do you put the holocaust in quotes?
LL: Heh, heh. I could take a guess!
****************
>
>
>
>
>
> > Many Zionists were also atheists.
> > Another area to investigate is current Israeli politics, which can pit
> > ultra orthodox Jews against their more secular brethren.
>
> > On Jan 14, 4:11 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
> > <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Why don't we see atheist Jews criticizing the faith of religious Jews
> > > to the same extent, or with the same verve, that we see ex-Christians
> > > criticizing the faith of Christians?
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 14, 11:10 am, Bill A <williamangel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Actually, why I put the term in quotes is a good question. I just
> meant to indicate that the term has a special meaning with respect to
> Jewish history. In point of fact, there have been serious instances of
> mass murder affecting other ethnic groups that could also be referred
> to as holocausts. I was not attempting to place the word in some sort
> of derisive context, as would be the case if I were a "holocaust-
> denier". In this instance I DO mean to imply on my part a derisive
> attitude towards those who assert that the annihilation of the Jews in
> Europe did not happen.
LL: Then, perhaps you should think of another way to express it than
putting the word in quotes as if it were some kind of fantasy or
error.
***************************
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 14, 2:21 pm, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> I still continue to scratch my head about the term 'Atheist Jew'. To
> me, this is a contradiction. Judaism is a religion and not a race of
> peoples. I understand that many people regard 'Jewishness' to be both
> an ethnic and a religious descriptor, however I also thought that
> claiming Jewish ethnicity, incorporates an acknowledgement of Jewish
> religious practices.
LL: Does a Jew end his ethnicity and culture when he becomes an
atheist?
If an Irish person, as an example, gives up the church and becomes an
atheist does he stop being Irish, must he stop celebrating St.
Patrick's Day and enjoying corned beef and cabbage?
*******************************************
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>atheist then call him/herself an Atheist Catholic perhaps?
You see, I also participate in (I really couldn't say celebrate)
Christmas festivities largely because that happens to be my particular
cultural/ethnic legacy. Even so, my family and I are committed
atheists. There would also be Australian Muslims & Jews (I would
think) who wouldn't participate in Christmas festivities at all.
That also doesn't mean that some Australian Muslims or Jews stop being
Australian for not participating in Christmas festivities nor does
that make me an Atheist Christian for opening presents on the 25th
December or filling my face with pudding later that day.
A later post on this thread explained my rationale here.
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>Tube, so I'll see if I can't find it on DVD. Thanks DK
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>I also went to this site
http://njjewishnews.com/njjn.com/060508/njGodOptional.html
and got some additional insights (I must be honest, I haven't
researched much about secular or atheist Jews), about various peoples
viewpoints here, so perhaps I should get into it a bit more.
This issue does interest me though, as I've read a number of texts by
Jewish non fiction authors about Judaism and most (if not all) are at
pains to outline that being Jewish has nothing to do with race (which
I fully agree with) and anyone can become a Jew if converted.
But again, aside from some participation in a few Jewish religious
holidays or other cultural practices why would you call yourself a
Atheist Jew.
Again, I can easily associate the atheist tag with nationality (as
explained elsewhere), but as soon as we go, atheist Jew or atheist
Christian, or how about atheist protestant, the logic simply doesn't
work for me.
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 15, 5:19 pm, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> Yes, truly I understand this, but in your example, would the Irish
> atheist then call him/herself an Atheist Catholic perhaps?
LL: THe point is that Jewish means an ethnicity AND a religion. You
can't separate them because the word has two meanings. If a Jew gives
up his religion, he's still a Jew ethnically. I can't think of another
example where a person's religion and ethnicity are described by the
same word. This is a problem of language, not religion. But you can't
say a person is no longer a Jew because he's given up the Jewish
religion. He's still a Jew ethnically.
******************************************************
When a Jew gives up his religion, he is still a Jew ethnically and
culturally.
ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com>> Yes, truly I understand this, but in your example, would the Irish
> atheist then call him/herself an Atheist Catholic perhaps?
Orianna Fallaci once called herself something like that.
> You see, I also participate in (I really couldn't say celebrate)
> Christmas festivities largely because that happens to be my particular
> cultural/ethnic legacy. Even so, my family and I are committed
> atheists. There would also be Australian Muslims & Jews (I would
> think) who wouldn't participate in Christmas festivities at all.
>
> That also doesn't mean that some Australian Muslims or Jews stop being
> Australian for not participating in Christmas festivities nor does
> that make me an Atheist Christian for opening presents on the 25th
> December or filling my face with pudding later that day.
You might be an Atheist pagan for celebrating Yule, though:-)
manny
<dafsmo@googlemail.com>ATHEIST THAT EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING JEW ATHEIST STUPID EVIL .
On 14 Jan, 16:11, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>So in effect, what you're saying here is;
As the term Jew, defines ethnicity & religion as an interrelated term,
i.e. the meaning of the word [Jewish] cannot be separated, it then
follows that one who is an atheist, but is also classed as a Jew on
ethnic grounds, then this validates the use of the term, Atheist Jew.
OK, got that.
So, my next question is, what are the ethnic identifiers or cultural
practices that mark an irreligious Jew and his/her community
behaviours within a community of religious Jewish people?
hucktunes
<bob.huck@gmail.com>> LL: THe point is that Jewish means an ethnicity AND a religion.
Jewish is not an ethnicity. Most Jews, about 80 %, are ethnically
European. The original Jews were Semites but they are now mostly
Muslim. Jewish is a religion and not an ethnicity.
Think
<teddybear2@bellsouth.net>"First of all, what I mean by the term "Atheist", is that I do not
believe that any deity is probable, nor do I believe that any deity
that I have ever heard of is possible. While I do not claim
omniscience--and can, therefore, not absolutely rule out the existence
of some sort of deity--I feel confident that my definition will
identify me as an atheist to the vast majority of the populace (and
thus avoid the confusion which often results from the use of term
Agnostic).
Secondly, when I say that I am "for Jesus", I do not mean to imply in
any way that I have converted to Christianity or that I now believe
Jesus to be a god. What I do mean is that I have come to have a great
deal of respect for the teachings of Jesus. My respect for Jesus is
not based on the Cross, but rather on the Mount--not on His death and
supposed resurrection, but on His teachings as exemplified by the
Sermon on the Mount."
http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/
ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com>Thanks for the cheery greeting:->
> DID YOU HEAR OF CHRISTIAN ATHEIST
A “Christian Atheist’s” Gift to Benedict
http://phibetacons.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MGY5ZDJkZWQ2MzRjMmNmNzcwNzg5MjQ5NDgyYmU2YWE=
Now, you have heard of it too.
> THAT EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING JEW ATHEIST
Merry Christmas from an atheist Jew
http://blogs.geniocity.com/friedman/2009/12/merry-christmas-from-an-atheist-jew/
It is people other than I who are calling themselves atheist Jews; I
didn't invent the term "atheist Jew".
> STUPID EVIL .
Sweet dreams to you too:->
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 15, 7:23 pm, hucktunes <bob.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 15, 6:10 pm, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > LL: THe point is that Jewish means an ethnicity AND a religion.
>
> Jewish is not an ethnicity. Most Jews, about 80 %, are ethnically
> European. The original Jews were Semites but they are now mostly
> Muslim. Jewish is a religion and not an ethnicity.
LL: Nobody's ethnicity shows in their DNA. Ethnicity is a human
construct, it is not physical. The only thing DNA might show is
certain DNA characteristics that are prevalent among various
populations.
If a person thinks he's ethnically Jewish, then he is. If you think
you are ethnically something else, then you are that ethnicity. It
can't be proven that you do or don't belong to any ethnic group. Your
DNA may show similarities to a particular ethnic group, but it doesn't
prove anything. It is simply that you share some characteristics with
the group--but you may also share characteristics with another group.
Race doesn't show up in DNA either, by the way.
*********************
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 15, 7:12 pm, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> LL,
>
> So in effect, what you're saying here is;
>
> As the term Jew, defines ethnicity & religion as an interrelated term,
> i.e. the meaning of the word [Jewish] cannot be separated, it then
> follows that one who is an atheist, but is also classed as a Jew on
> ethnic grounds, then this validates the use of the term, Atheist Jew.
>
> OK, got that.
>
> So, my next question is, what are the ethnic identifiers or cultural
> practices that mark an irreligious Jew and his/her community
> behaviours within a community of religious Jewish people?
LL: It's all self-identification. That's the only way anyone can
decide whether he or she "belongs" to a community of any kind. There
are no unambiguous physical characteristics that mean a person
definitely belongs to a particular ethnic group.
I knew a man who was adopted as a baby. He was a foundling and his
adoptive parents did not know his ethnic background. When he grew up
he decided he looked like an Italian. He lived among Italians,
identified with them and felt as if they shared an ethnic identity.
Years later, he discovered he was actually Greek. He said, "I still
feel like an Italian." Ethnicity is in the mind.
*************************************
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>On 16 Jan, 03:23, hucktunes <bob.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Jan 15, 6:10 pm, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > LL: THe point is that Jewish means an ethnicity AND a religion.
>
> Jewish is not an ethnicity. Most Jews, about 80 %, are ethnically
> European.
Please give a citation for the above and a link to a website.
Its not that i dont believe you but given your stated view;
" Look at all those deluded white people pretending to be
Semites, taking on phony Semitic sounding names, pretending that
they are descended from some sort of magical lost tribe of some sort
of
special, holy people. Bullshit. I feel sorry for the poor, deluded
souls that were raised to believe they are Jews"
I get the feeling the web address will go something like www.ihatejews.com
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>national identity as your Italian example is. It's an ethnic &
religious identity. You're adopted 'Italian' elected to associate his
ethnicity with an Italian heritage because he thought he 'looked like
an Italian'.
Jews don't *look* like any ethnic background in particular. Jews are
Jews because they say they are. A Jews Jewishness is really the
decision of the person to identify as such and (as you mention to
Huck) DNA has zip to do with it.
So the decision to identify oneself as being a Jew comes down to (as
you explained earlier) identifying with the ethnicity of being a Jew
or the religious aspects of being a Jew or in fact both aspects.
But the issue here is how one identifies oneself as an Atheist Jew,
when obviously an Atheist Jew doesn't identify with the religious
aspects of being a Jew, only the ethnic component.
What I'm asking is how that ethnic identity manifests itself.
It's not DNA, or Nationhood, or religious observances, so what is it?
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>It takes all kinds, eh?
"First of all, what I mean by the term "Atheist", is that I do not
believe that any deity is probable, nor do I believe that any deity
that I have ever heard of is possible. While I do not claim
omniscience--and can, therefore, not absolutely rule out the existence
of some sort of deity--I feel confident that my definition will
identify me as an atheist to the vast majority of the populace (and
thus avoid the confusion which often results from the use of term
Agnostic).
Secondly, when I say that I am "for Jesus", I do not mean to imply in
any way that I have converted to Christianity or that I now believe
Jesus to be a god. What I do mean is that I have come to have a great
deal of respect for the teachings of Jesus. My respect for Jesus is
not based on the Cross, but rather on the Mount--not on His death and
supposed resurrection, but on His teachings as exemplified by the
Sermon on the Mount."
http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com/
Haha. I was wondering how long it would be before one of you guys showed up.
I've seen the site. It's quite interesting.
--
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>LL, & that's where my problem begins & ends. Jewishness is not a
national identity as your Italian example is. It's an ethnic &
religious identity. You're adopted 'Italian' elected to associate his
ethnicity with an Italian heritage because he thought he 'looked like
an Italian'.
Jews don't *look* like any ethnic background in particular. Jews are
Jews because they say they are. A Jews Jewishness is really the
decision of the person to identify as such and (as you mention to
Huck) DNA has zip to do with it.
So the decision to identify oneself as being a Jew comes down to (as
you explained earlier) identifying with the ethnicity of being a Jew
or the religious aspects of being a Jew or in fact both aspects.
But the issue here is how one identifies oneself as an Atheist Jew,
when obviously an Atheist Jew doesn't identify with the religious
aspects of being a Jew, only the ethnic component.
What I'm asking is how that ethnic identity manifests itself.
It's not DNA, or Nationhood, or religious observances, so what is it?
It's the same as atheists celebrating Christmas.
Atheists / Secular Jews will celebrate their holidays but remove the religious content.
Many will follow the dietary restrictions as well.
They will attend Synagogue when invited to do so by other family members for certain special occasions, etc.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
To post to this group, send email to atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>Doing the things I listed in my previous post, while are cultural still IMO doesn't justify calling oneself Jewish.
I do all of those things as well and do not call myself an Atheist Sikh.
I think it's just a hold over from the days of anti-semitism when one didn't want to be accused of trying to hide who you were.
Since according to the rest of the world you were Jewish whether you practiced or not, people just continued to call themselves Jewish.
It's not actually necessary anymore and there really is no reason to do it.
manny
<dafsmo@googlemail.com>of yours and tell me it's not you it's just them, evils like you
Right? it doesn't make it right, cause anything that you say, it's
evil and because you are evil no matter what you say it's still evil,
that what you are and that what you do, you look for evil shit to
post .
On 16 Jan, 04:29, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jan 15, 9:56 pm, manny <daf...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > ARE YOU STILL TALKING BULLSHIT EVIL MAN?
>
> Thanks for the cheery greeting:->
>
> > DID YOU HEAR OF CHRISTIAN ATHEIST
>
> A “Christian Atheist’s” Gift to Benedicthttp://phibetacons.nationalreview.com/post/?q=MGY5ZDJkZWQ2MzRjMmNmNzc...
> Now, you have heard of it too.
>
> > THAT EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE SAYING JEW ATHEIST
>
> Merry Christmas from an atheist Jewhttp://blogs.geniocity.com/friedman/2009/12/merry-christmas-from-an-a...
> It is people other than I who are calling themselves atheist Jews; I
> didn't invent the term "atheist Jew".
>
> > STUPID EVIL .
>
> Sweet dreams to you too:->
>
>
>
> > On 14 Jan, 16:11, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com" <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Why don't we see atheist Jews criticizing the faith of religious Jews
> > > to the same extent, or with the same verve, that we see ex-Christians
manny
<dafsmo@googlemail.com>On 16 Jan, 02:10, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jan 15, 5:19 pm, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
>
> > Yes, truly I understand this, but in your example, would the Irish
> > atheist then call him/herself an Atheist Catholic perhaps?
>
> LL: THe point is that Jewish means an ethnicity AND a religion. You
> can't separate them because the word has two meanings. If a Jew gives
> up his religion, he's still a Jew ethnically. I can't think of another
> example where a person's religion and ethnicity are described by the
> same word. This is a problem of language, not religion. But you can't
> say a person is no longer a Jew because he's given up the Jewish
> religion. He's still a Jew ethnically.
>
> ******************************************************
>
> When a Jew gives up his religion, he is still a Jew ethnically and
> culturally.
So are you a Christian atheist or a Muslim atheist or whatever atheist
are you? Why you call yourself atheist without adding your
background.?
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>were thousands of others who spruiked a humanitarian doctrine.
On Jan 16, 8:01 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Think
<teddybear2@bellsouth.net>with the site.
On Jan 16, 7:01 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>Not sure what you mean by "one of you guys." I have no connection
with the site.
Ah. Apologies then. I assumed you were connected when you posted the link and made your comments about Jesus.
The "one of you guys" was not intended as derogatory (if that's how you took it).
I'm actually surprised that none of the Atheists for Jesus folk have found our site.
They could make an interesting addition to the membership here.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
To post to this group, send email to atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>On 16 Jan, 16:05, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>please give verifiable evidence for the existance of jesus ;0)
Haha. It could be fun. Have you ever seen the site?
It's quite interesting.
Anyway I do acknowledge that the Christus had a leader and that he advocated a belief system that the Christus followed.
Whether his name was Jesus, whether the description as outlined in the Bible is correct, and whether he rose from the dead are a different matter.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>On 16 Jan, 16:21, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk>wrote:
>
> > please give verifiable evidence for the existance of jesus ;0)
>
> Haha. It could be fun. Have you ever seen the site?
>
> It's quite interesting.
>
> Anyway I do acknowledge that the Christus had a leader and that he advocated
> a belief system that the Christus followed.
Who are the Christus?
>
> Whether his name was Jesus,
Meh
whether the description as outlined in the Bible
> is correct,
meh
>and whether he rose from the dead are a different matter.
you figure?! ;0)
after reading
Jesus: One Hundred Years Before Christ by Alvar Ellegard
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ellegard&x=0&y=0
Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never
Knew
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/dp/0195182499/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263659653&sr=8-3
Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c
The Jesus Movement: A Social History Of Its First Century
http://www.flipkart.com/jesus-movement-ekkehard-stegemann-wolfgang/0800630092-66w3f9ygsn
along with the source document of course (what a drag) Im convinced
that no first century christian would recognise the jesus depicted by
the gospels, and that the jesus paul spoke of had already become a
folk legend.
re the book list, i got a bit obsessed.
> > <atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com
<ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com>On Jan 16, 3:14 am, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jan 15, 7:12 pm, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
>
> > LL,
>
> > So in effect, what you're saying here is;
>
> > As the term Jew, defines ethnicity & religion as an interrelated term,
> > i.e. the meaning of the word [Jewish] cannot be separated, it then
> > follows that one who is an atheist, but is also classed as a Jew on
> > ethnic grounds, then this validates the use of the term, Atheist Jew.
>
> > OK, got that.
>
> > So, my next question is, what are the ethnic identifiers or cultural
> > practices that mark an irreligious Jew and his/her community
> > behaviours within a community of religious Jewish people?
>
> LL: It's all self-identification. That's the only way anyone can
> decide whether he or she "belongs" to a community of any kind. There
> are no unambiguous physical characteristics that mean a person
> definitely belongs to a particular ethnic group.
>
> I knew a man who was adopted as a baby. He was a foundling and his
> adoptive parents did not know his ethnic background. When he grew up
> he decided he looked like an Italian. He lived among Italians,
> identified with them and felt as if they shared an ethnic identity.
> Years later, he discovered he was actually Greek. He said, "I still
> feel like an Italian." Ethnicity is in the mind.
Ha ha. He can move to southern Italy to be among those partly
descended from Greeks. This part of Italy used to be part of Greater
Greece.
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>
On 16 Jan, 16:21, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk>wrote:
>Who are the Christus?
> > please give verifiable evidence for the existance of jesus ;0)
>
> Haha. It could be fun. Have you ever seen the site?
>
> It's quite interesting.
>
> Anyway I do acknowledge that the Christus had a leader and that he advocated
> a belief system that the Christus followed.
The group of rebels identified by Josephus as Christians.
>Meh
> Whether his name was Jesus,
meh
whether the description as outlined in the Bible
> is correct,
you figure?! ;0)
>and whether he rose from the dead are a different matter.
after reading
Jesus: One Hundred Years Before Christ by Alvar Ellegard
http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=ellegard&x=0&y=0
Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never
Knew
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/dp/0195182499/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1263659653&sr=8-3
Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060738170/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_c
The Jesus Movement: A Social History Of Its First Century
http://www.flipkart.com/jesus-movement-ekkehard-stegemann-wolfgang/0800630092-66w3f9ygsn
along with the source document of course (what a drag) Im convinced
that no first century christian would recognise the jesus depicted by
the gospels, and that the jesus paul spoke of had already become a
folk legend.
I agree that's quite likely. I'm not even sure that the Bible represents the actual Christus belief system.
Some of the mythology surrounding him is way too similar to older myths for it to be coincidental.
re the book list, i got a bit obsessed.
I noticed. Lol.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>> On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 16 Jan, 16:21, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk
> > >wrote:
>
> > > > please give verifiable evidence for the existance of jesus ;0)
>
> > > Haha. It could be fun. Have you ever seen the site?
>
> > > It's quite interesting.
>
> > > Anyway I do acknowledge that the Christus had a leader and that he
> > advocated
> > > a belief system that the Christus followed.
>
> > Who are the Christus?
>
> The group of rebels identified by Josephus as Christians.
Christus, spelt exactly that way avoiding the need for a "mispelling"
theory , could be a first name (i managed to avoid "christan name"). A
thory put forward by Ranjit which you pointed out to me says it merely
means "slave", either way the passage you refer to; if taken as jesus,
would mean he was alive and well in AD 56.
>
> I agree that's quite likely. I'm not even sure that the Bible represents the
> actual Christus belief system.
Does it represent any consistant belief system? Do we get to heaven by
good deeds or faith?
>
> Some of the mythology surrounding him is way too similar to older myths for
> it to be coincidental.
For something "divinely inspired", it showes a marked lack of
imagination.
On 16 Jan, 16:52, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 16 Jan, 16:21, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk
> > >wrote:
>
> > > > please give verifiable evidence for the existance of jesus ;0)
>
> > > Haha. It could be fun. Have you ever seen the site?
>
> > > It's quite interesting.
>
> > > Anyway I do acknowledge that the Christus had a leader and that he
> > advocated
> > > a belief system that the Christus followed.
>
> > Who are the Christus?
>
> The group of rebels identified by Josephus as Christians.
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Whether his name was Jesus,
>
> > Meh
>
> > whether the description as outlined in the Bible
> > > is correct,
>
> > meh
>
> > >and whether he rose from the dead are a different matter.
>
> > you figure?! ;0)
>
> > after reading
>
> > Jesus: One Hundred Years Before Christ by Alvar Ellegard
>
> >http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keyw...
>
> > Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never
> > Knew
>
> >http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/...
>
> > Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why
>
> >http://www.amazon.co.uk/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060...
>
> > The Jesus Movement: A Social History Of Its First Century
>
> >http://www.flipkart.com/jesus-movement-ekkehard-stegemann-wolfgang/08...
> > > > <atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> > <atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>imagination."
I mean, something that can come up with the sex life of a clown fish
should surely have been able to think up a better story.
"Clownfish live in small groups inhabiting a single anemone. The group
consists of a breeding pair, which cohabit with a few non-
reproductive, "pre-pubescent", and smaller male clownfish. When the
female dies, the dominant male changes sex and becomes the female"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clown_fish
On 16 Jan, 16:52, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 16 Jan, 16:21, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk
> > >wrote:
>
> > > > please give verifiable evidence for the existance of jesus ;0)
>
> > > Haha. It could be fun. Have you ever seen the site?
>
> > > It's quite interesting.
>
> > > Anyway I do acknowledge that the Christus had a leader and that he
> > advocated
> > > a belief system that the Christus followed.
>
> > Who are the Christus?
>
> The group of rebels identified by Josephus as Christians.
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Whether his name was Jesus,
>
> > Meh
>
> > whether the description as outlined in the Bible
> > > is correct,
>
> > meh
>
> > >and whether he rose from the dead are a different matter.
>
> > you figure?! ;0)
>
> > after reading
>
> > Jesus: One Hundred Years Before Christ by Alvar Ellegard
>
> >http://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=nb_ss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keyw...
>
> > Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never
> > Knew
>
> >http://www.amazon.co.uk/Lost-Christianities-Battles-Scripture-Faiths/...
>
> > Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why
>
> >http://www.amazon.co.uk/Misquoting-Jesus-Story-Behind-Changed/dp/0060...
>
> > The Jesus Movement: A Social History Of Its First Century
>
> >http://www.flipkart.com/jesus-movement-ekkehard-stegemann-wolfgang/08...
> > > > <atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> > <atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 16, 3:39 am, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> LL, & that's where my problem begins & ends. Jewishness is not a
> national identity as your Italian example is. It's an ethnic &
> religious identity. You're adopted 'Italian' elected to associate his
> ethnicity with an Italian heritage because he thought he 'looked like
> an Italian'.
>
> Jews don't *look* like any ethnic background in particular. Jews are
> Jews because they say they are. A Jews Jewishness is really the
> decision of the person to identify as such and (as you mention to
> Huck) DNA has zip to do with it.
>
> So the decision to identify oneself as being a Jew comes down to (as
> you explained earlier) identifying with the ethnicity of being a Jew
> or the religious aspects of being a Jew or in fact both aspects.
>
> But the issue here is how one identifies oneself as an Atheist Jew,
> when obviously an Atheist Jew doesn't identify with the religious
> aspects of being a Jew, only the ethnic component.
>
> What I'm asking is how that ethnic identity manifests itself.
>
> It's not DNA, or Nationhood, or religious observances, so what is it?
LL: Since there is no physical manifestation of Jewishness, and no
national identification, and the atheist Jew has removed himself from
the religious aspects of being a Jew (in the religious sense) it can
only be what a person feels--his psychological connection to others
who identify themselves as Jews.
But you could say that about any ethnic identification. There is no
gene that shows it, there could be a nationhood aspect--knowing that
one's parents and other ancestors, for example, came from a particular
nation, but that can also be ambiguous. As an instance, a fair number
of Jews lived in China for generations. Are they "Jewish" or are they
"Chinese"? What is "Jewish" anyway, but a self-identification? Chinese
people might be seen to be those who were born and lived in China for
a long period of time. Yet Chinese Jews (as far as I know) tend to
identify themselves as Jews rather than Chinese. Many people are
wrong about where their ancestors came from and how they might have
intermarried with others who identify themselves with another ethnic
group or they disregard the other groups. There are other groups
besides Jews who have no actual "nation." Indigenous people come to
mind as do nomadic people, such as those we call gypsies or Romany or
Travelers. They have never had a nation in the modern sense of the
word. They identified with tribes, for example, but those tribes may
have had no real connection with other ones. Yet many seem to feel a
need to identify themselves as connected to other indigenous or
nomadic people, perhaps for lack of another identifier, or for
political gain.
It's human nature to make these connections. Everyone should be free
to determine what their connections are and which ones make them feel
most comfortable, but there is nothing beyond personal feelings that
show that a person is or is not connected to a particular group. No
one should be criticized or complimented for making a particular
identification, IMO.
*******************
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>On 16 Jan, 16:52, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 11:43 AM, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk>wrote:
>Christus, spelt exactly that way avoiding the need for a "mispelling"
>
>
>
>
> > On 16 Jan, 16:21, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Sat, Jan 16, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk
> > >wrote:
>
> > > > please give verifiable evidence for the existance of jesus ;0)
>
> > > Haha. It could be fun. Have you ever seen the site?
>
> > > It's quite interesting.
>
> > > Anyway I do acknowledge that the Christus had a leader and that he
> > advocated
> > > a belief system that the Christus followed.
>
> > Who are the Christus?
>
> The group of rebels identified by Josephus as Christians.
theory , could be a first name (i managed to avoid "christan name"). A
thory put forward by Ranjit which you pointed out to me says it merely
means "slave", either way the passage you refer to; if taken as jesus,
would mean he was alive and well in AD 56.
The one that I was referring to mentioned that the leader of the Christus was crucified.
Of course as A42 pointed out the crucifixion story would have been based on hearsay.
However, I believe that there are at least two and possibly three different passages which refer to the Christus in Josephus that are not considered forgeries by Eusubius so it seems that they existed.
In order to be sure that the Christus didn't refer to slaves I suppose one would have to look at the biblical texts and see if the same word, Christus was used to identify the group.
At least that would be one way.
Here's an interesting link that I just started reading. Perhaps there's some useful information in it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 16, 4:09 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to elaborate a bit on my opinion.
>
> Doing the things I listed in my previous post, while are cultural still IMO
> doesn't justify calling oneself Jewish.
LL: What does, then?
***********************************
>
> I do all of those things as well and do not call myself an Atheist Sikh.
>
> I think it's just a hold over from the days of anti-semitism when one didn't
> want to be accused of trying to hide who you were.
>
> Since according to the rest of the world you were Jewish whether you
> practiced or not, people just continued to call themselves Jewish.
>
> It's not actually necessary anymore and there really is no reason to do it.
>
> >> atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 16, 4:19 am, manny <daf...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 16 Jan, 02:10, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Jan 15, 5:19 pm, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
>
> > > Yes, truly I understand this, but in your example, would the Irish
> > > atheist then call him/herself an Atheist Catholic perhaps?
>
> > LL: THe point is that Jewish means an ethnicity AND a religion. You
> > can't separate them because the word has two meanings. If a Jew gives
> > up his religion, he's still a Jew ethnically. I can't think of another
> > example where a person's religion and ethnicity are described by the
> > same word. This is a problem of language, not religion. But you can't
> > say a person is no longer a Jew because he's given up the Jewish
> > religion. He's still a Jew ethnically.
>
> > ******************************************************
>
> > When a Jew gives up his religion, he is still a Jew ethnically and
> > culturally.
>
> So are you a Christian atheist or a Muslim atheist or whatever atheist
> are you? Why you call yourself atheist without adding your
> background.?
LL: I'm just an atheist and it doesn't matter what my background is. I
simply have no belief in a god or any religion. Atheists are under no
obligation to identify themselves further if they don't wish to do so.
If someone tells me he is a Catholic, for example, I don't question
him as to what "kind" of Catholic he is, what his background is. Do
you? If you don't insist that every religious person must also add his
background, why would you insist that an atheist do so?
A person's background has absolutely nothing to do with his atheism.
*************************************
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 16, 8:47 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
LL: That's true, and he'll probably never know for sure and neither
will anyone else. So, in the end, does it matter? That was my point.
It doesn't! Ethnicity is a purely mental construct.
*****************
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>LL: What does, then?
On Jan 16, 4:09 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to elaborate a bit on my opinion.
>
> Doing the things I listed in my previous post, while are cultural still IMO
> doesn't justify calling oneself Jewish.
I don't think it's necessary. That's not to say that if someone who is Jewish shouldn't do it.
It's entirely up to them I suppose.
It's really quite meaningless though.
They might celebrate a secular version of hanukkah and we might celebrate a secular version of christmas but Christians don't call themselves atheist christians even though technically speaking they're maintaining their "culture".
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
hucktunes
<bob.huck@gmail.com>> LL: Nobody's ethnicity shows in their DNA. Ethnicity is a human
> construct, it is not physical.
Sure, ethnicity means simply 'association'. Being Jewish is much like
being a Mason or a hippie. But its not like being Italian or Greek or
English or Arabic.
On Jan 16, 12:05 am, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jan 15, 7:23 pm, hucktunes <bob.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 15, 6:10 pm, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > > LL: THe point is that Jewish means an ethnicity AND a religion.
>
> > Jewish is not an ethnicity. Most Jews, about 80 %, are ethnically
> > European. The original Jews were Semites but they are now mostly
> > Muslim. Jewish is a religion and not an ethnicity.
>
> LL: Nobody's ethnicity shows in their DNA. Ethnicity is a human
> construct, it is not physical. The only thing DNA might show is
> certain DNA characteristics that are prevalent among various
> populations.
>
> If a person thinks he's ethnically Jewish, then he is. If you think
> you are ethnically something else, then you are that ethnicity. It
> can't be proven that you do or don't belong to any ethnic group. Your
> DNA may show similarities to a particular ethnic group, but it doesn't
> prove anything. It is simply that you share some characteristics with
> the group--but you may also share characteristics with another group.
> Race doesn't show up in DNA either, by the way.
>
> *********************
Bill A
<williamangel999@hotmail.com>ethnicity shows in their DNA"
DNA, here is some material from the Hadassah Medical Center web site:
"Canavan Disease: Canavan disease is a serious hereditary disease,
where the substance acetyl-aspartate accumulates in the brain. As a
consequence, the baby’s brain cells deteriorate, resulting in severe
mental and physical retardation, and death.
The disease is relatively common in Ashkenazi Jews, about 1:10,000
births, and very rare in other ethnic groups. About one out of every
50 Ashkenazi Jews is a carrier of Canavan Disease. The tests are
offered only to couples where both partners are Ashkenazi or partly
Ashkenazi. Most carriers can be identified by testing for two
mutations in the gene associated with the disease."
So there does appear to be a correlation between ethnic identification
and one's heredity, strong enough to increase the likelihood of being
afflicted with certain hereditary diseases. I would agree, however,
that being a carrier of this genetic marker is no indication of
whether or not this individual would identify himself as being
Jewish.
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>where I'm coming from here too, however the issue IMO really comes
down to one of honesty with the so called atheist Jew. If you claim to
be Jewish, you've gotta take the package, not just the bits that you
like.
Jewish culture is inextricably entwined with it's religion. Jewish
customs, Jewish preparation of food, Jewish holidays and Jewish
Zionism etc are all born from religious interperations or observances.
Jews in New York or Moscow or Warsaw or Vienna, or Berlin, or wherever
are interconnected by their religion and religious observances, not by
the language of their citizenship, nor by sporting pastimes, or
whatever foodstuffs they may eat; or really much else. The thing that
links Jews is their religion and their customary observances of
same.
If a person who was brought up in a Jewish household, but subsequently
decided that atheism is their path to follow, then to retain the
Jewish tag is really a misnomer. Sure, the 'atheist' Jew may feel
pressure to stay part of the community and as such may also endeavour
to reaffirm their ethnic or cultural Jewishness, even when they don't
believe in God, in order to live with their pious neighbours.
But this is simply societal pressure at work. One doesn't want to be a
pariah in one's own community.
But if they were 'fair dinkum' about it, they'd just drop the Jewish
tag, and simply call themselves an atheist. If they want to elaborate,
fine....call oneself an Atheist or join groups like American Atheists
or like me, the Atheist Foundation of Australia.
One obvious difficulty (IMO) when calling oneself an atheist Jew is
that it allows the anti semites to argue that if a Jew themselves
doesn't believe in God, then they must be able to claim their
Jewishness is born from something else.
And we know how many evil people have worked that one (and still do)
Judaism is a religion. This is non negotiable.
Jewish ethnicity is born from and manifests itself with religious
observances.
"Judaism is the oldest monotheistic religion, and the history of
Judaism cannot be separated from the history of the Jewish people".
Reference: http://www.abc.net.au/religion/stories/s796551.htm
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>Conforming to religious ceremonies would be one! How about a Jewish
wedding for an atheist couple. A Jewish wedding ceremony with all the
religious overtones. Reference: http://www.aish.com/jl/l/48969841.html
Would it surprise anyone that atheists have been married in a
Synagogue (or a Church or a Mosque) over the years, thus allowing the
couple to satisfy the pious family members & to not rock the boat.
Good little Jewish boys & girls, still toeing the religious line of
their parents & families religion.
Not me though.
I was married in a civil ceremony by a civil celebrant.
We didn't invite our guests to an atheists wedding, but we sure as
shit didn't mumble to a frock wearer either. My wife came from a
catholic background and she was as brave as can be to get married out
of the church. Her aunt (who was a Nun) wouldn't attend our wedding.
What a blessing! (intended)
My wife isn't an atheist Catholic. She's an atheist.
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>On 16 Jan, 18:01, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
I did read the site when Think posted the link in the other thread.
Although I did find it interesting my conclusion was, boiled down its
nothing more than apologetics for Phds.
> > > > > > <atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> > <atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
>
> > > > <atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> > <atheism-vs-christianity%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>
>
> > > > > > > > .
> > > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
>
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > -------------------------
> > > > > > > "Belief shuts the mind and inquiry opens it." --Observer
>
> > > > > > > Demagogue: "one who will preach doctrines he knows to be untrue
> > to
> > > > men he
> > > > > > > knows to be idiots." -- H.L. Mencken.
>
> > > > > > > Imagination: "He who has imagination without learning has wings
> > but
> > > > no
> > > > > > > feet." ~Joseph Joubert
>
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > > > Groups
> > > > > > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > > > > > To post to this group, send email to
> > > > > > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > > > > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
>
> ...
>
> read more »
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>Their approach to it could be described in that way.
If I were to do that I wouldn't take that approach since it seems to me that it's more important to establish historicity.
However, their conclusions about the belief system are interesting and I think it's good to point out to Christians that the doctrine they are following, with all of the gazillion interpretations may not actually reflect the real beliefs of Christianity.
And by doing that encourage some critical thinking about the belief system itself.
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>On 17 Jan, 12:20, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
when I read something along the lines of "a group of theologans...".
>
> If I were to do that I wouldn't take that approach since it seems to me that
> it's more important to establish historicity.
I would say that they're aim is exactly to establish "historicity" .
Ive noticed that modern liberal christianity has taken to portraying
jebus as "just an ordinary guy with some interesting things to
say." (ebonite christology if we were on the other thread). Its just
"the church" adapting to a society that says "he did what? walked on
what? Bwhahahahahahahahahah".
>
> However, their conclusions about the belief system are interesting and I
> think it's good to point out to Christians that the doctrine they are
> following, with all of the gazillion interpretations may not actually
> reflect the real beliefs of Christianity.
>
> And by doing that encourage some critical thinking about the belief system
> itself.
And how much critical thinking are we getting from Brock?
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>Im just going to jump in on this with a question.
There was a rather heated discussion between ken and myself a while
ago where Ken claimed a "scotish" ethnicity (he called it race). I
told him to shove it as being born (unimportant) and brought up in the
American culture, he has no idea of what a modern scotish identity is.
your thoughts?
>
> *****************
etienne
<etiennem79@gmail.com>On 15 jan, 00:25, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> Yeah, I figured that, but we don't call ourselves Atheist Christians
> either. Just atheists. Yes, American, or Australian, or Canadian
> atheist or even an Israeli atheist, if nationality helps the enquirer
> further.
>
> The contrast in my mind revolves around the blurring of descriptors.
>
> You see, anyone can become a Jew if they convert to Judaism.
That more complicated than that with some rabbi.
> It
> doesn't matter what their race or nationality is. As an example, if I
> converted to Judaism as a Chinese national, with Chinese ethnicity,
> the only way I could articulate my Jewishness would be through the
> practices of Judaic religious observances. But if I was an ethnic
> Chinese son of a Chinese national who is a practicing Jew and I then
> became an atheist by choice......then I'd just be an atheist wouldn't
> I?
>
> I mean, I couldn't claim to be an Atheist Jew as the only practices
> I've spurned are religious (Judaism). Further, I'd likely follow the
> cultural mores of my particular society, which may even include (like
> it does in some parts of China now) Christmas trees and Santas etc.
>
> But I'm just an atheist. Not a Atheist Jew.
>
> Now the question arises, when considering Atheist Jews in Israel.
>
> Jews from all around the world from many cultures and countries have
> made Israel their home. National origins haven't dictated who claims
> Israel as a homeland. It's been those migrants whose Jewishness
> allowed them to settle in a 'Jewish nation state'. British, American,
> Russian, Polish, Sudanese, Syrian, Arab, Italian etc etc, all with
> differing national / cultural mores in evidence, but the binding
> identifyers are Jewish cultural practices (read religious practices).
> So in my mind, how else can one can link the cultures of diverse
> peoples from such contrasting backgrounds other than through religious
> observances.
>
> This is why I can't get my head around the notion of an Atheist Jew.
>
The Jewish religion is more ethnocentred than Christianity even if
there are converts. You are like my boss, he doesn't like it either.
> On Jan 15, 6:39 am, Medusa <Medusa4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Jan 14, 4:21 pm, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
>
> > > I still continue to scratch my head about the term 'Atheist Jew'. To
> > > me, this is a contradiction. Judaism is a religion and not a race of
> > > peoples. I understand that many people regard 'Jewishness' to be both
> > > an ethnic and a religious descriptor, however I also thought that
> > > claiming Jewish ethnicity, incorporates an acknowledgement of Jewish
> > > religious practices.
>
> > I have met several people of Jewish ethnicity who are athesist. In
> > other words, they were born into the religion, as I was born to
> > Christian parents, but have rejected the religious portion of their
> > background.
>
> > > Can anyone outline any non religious ethnic practices or cultural
> > > mores that an atheist Jew participates in?
>
> > I would guess some of them do as I do; celebrate the holidays without
> > a belief in the religion.
>
> > As I still have a Christmas tree and celebrations with my family and
> > friends, they may still observe the Jewish holidays. One atheist of
> > Jewish descent I met still did not eat pork nor shellfish.
>
> > Medusa
>
> > > On Jan 15, 12:11 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
>
> > > <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > Why don't we see atheist Jews criticizing the faith of religious Jews
> > > > to the same extent, or with the same verve, that we see ex-Christians
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>Only in the context of the theological doctrine that they already believe in.
And then we're supposed to believe the theological doctrine on those grounds.
That's not establishing historicity.
Ive noticed that modern liberal christianity has taken to portraying
jebus as "just an ordinary guy with some interesting things to
say." (ebonite christology if we were on the other thread). Its just
"the church" adapting to a society that says "he did what? walked on
what? Bwhahahahahahahahahah".
Sure it is. And the response to that is simply that the few positive concepts that appear to have been advocated by the Christus existed long before the Christus.
They adopted them and didn't actually introduce anything new.
We don't need to be Christian to know that we shouldn't do things to other people that we wouldn't want them to do to us or whatever.
>And how much critical thinking are we getting from Brock?
> However, their conclusions about the belief system are interesting and I
> think it's good to point out to Christians that the doctrine they are
> following, with all of the gazillion interpretations may not actually
> reflect the real beliefs of Christianity.
>
> And by doing that encourage some critical thinking about the belief system
> itself.
I'm having a good discussion with OldMan.
manny
<dafsmo@googlemail.com>practice or not? so how do you know they are Muslims cause we all know
there Muslims all over the world from all kind, Chinese,
Russians,Indian like you , African, Arab ,Israeli ,do you call all
those people Muslims whether they practice or not ? you don't have a
clue do you ? you talk shit all the time, but the problem is you think
you're smart, stupidity is coming out of your hole. So now I learn one
more shit about you, so you're a Sikh no wonder you're atheist, I will
be too, but I don't think I will stay that way, stupid like you .
enjoy it
On 16 Jan, 12:09, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just to elaborate a bit on my opinion.
>
> Doing the things I listed in my previous post, while are cultural still IMO
> doesn't justify calling oneself Jewish.
>
> >> On Jan 16, 4:14 pm, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
> >> > On Jan 15, 7:12 pm, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
>
> >> > > LL,
>
> >> > > So in effect, what you're saying here is;
>
> >> > > As the term Jew, defines ethnicity & religion as an interrelated term,
> >> > > i.e. the meaning of the word [Jewish] cannot be separated, it then
> >> > > follows that one who is an atheist, but is also classed as a Jew on
> >> > > ethnic grounds, then this validates the use of the term, Atheist Jew.
>
> >> > > OK, got that.
>
> >> > > So, my next question is, what are the ethnic identifiers or cultural
> >> > > practices that mark an irreligious Jew and his/her community
> >> > > behaviours within a community of religious Jewish people?
>
> >> > LL: It's all self-identification. That's the only way anyone can
> >> > decide whether he or she "belongs" to a community of any kind. There
> >> > are no unambiguous physical characteristics that mean a person
> >> > definitely belongs to a particular ethnic group.
>
> >> > I knew a man who was adopted as a baby. He was a foundling and his
> >> > adoptive parents did not know his ethnic background. When he grew up
> >> > he decided he looked like an Italian. He lived among Italians,
> >> > identified with them and felt as if they shared an ethnic identity.
> >> > Years later, he discovered he was actually Greek. He said, "I still
> >> > feel like an Italian." Ethnicity is in the mind.
>
> >> > > > > On Jan 16, 4:26 am, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > > On Jan 14, 2:21 pm, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
>
> >> > > > > > > I still continue to scratch my head about the term 'Atheist
> >> Jew'. To
> >> > > > > > > me, this is a contradiction. Judaism is a religion and not a
> >> race of
> >> > > > > > > peoples. I understand that many people regard 'Jewishness' to
> >> be both
> >> > > > > > > an ethnic and a religious descriptor, however I also thought
> >> that
> >> > > > > > > claiming Jewish ethnicity, incorporates an acknowledgement of
> >> Jewish
> >> > > > > > > religious practices.
>
> >> > > > > > LL: Does a Jew end his ethnicity and culture when he becomes an
> >> > > > > > atheist?
>
> >> > > > > > If an Irish person, as an example, gives up the church and
> >> becomes an
> >> > > > > > atheist does he stop being Irish, must he stop celebrating St.
> >> > > > > > Patrick's Day and enjoying corned beef and cabbage?
>
> >> > > > > > *******************************************
>
> >> > > > > > > Can anyone outline any non religious ethnic practices or
> >> cultural
> >> > > > > > > mores that an atheist Jew participates in?
>
> >> > > > > > > On Jan 15, 12:11 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
>
> >> > > > > > > <ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > Why don't we see atheist Jews criticizing the faith of
> >> religious Jews
> >> > > > > > > > to the same extent, or with the same verve, that we see
> >> ex-Christians
> >> > > > > > > > criticizing the faith of Christians?
>
> >> --
> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> >> "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> >> To post to this group, send email to
> >> atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> >> atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> >> .
>
> >> For more options, visit this group at
> >>http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
>
> > --
> > -------------------------
>
> > "Belief shuts the mind and inquiry opens it." --Observer
>
> > Demagogue: "one who will preach doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he
> > knows to be idiots." -- H.L. Mencken.
>
> > Imagination: "He who has imagination without learning has wings but no
> > feet." ~Joseph Joubert
>
> --
> -------------------------
> "Belief shuts the mind and inquiry opens it." --Observer
>
> Demagogue: "one who will preach doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he
> knows to be idiots." -- H.L. Mencken.
>
> Imagination: "He who has imagination without learning has wings but no
> feet." ~Joseph Joubert- Hide quoted text -
manny
<dafsmo@googlemail.com>about the sikh, after all the sikh that you run from any?
On 16 Jan, 18:01, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > <atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
>
> > > > <atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> > <atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
>
> > > > > > <atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> > <atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
>
> > > > <atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> > <atheism-vs-christianity%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>
>
> > > > > > > > .
> > > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
>
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > -------------------------
> > > > > > > "Belief shuts the mind and inquiry opens it." --Observer
>
> > > > > > > Demagogue: "one who will preach doctrines he knows to be untrue
> > to
> > > > men he
> > > > > > > knows to be idiots." -- H.L. Mencken.
>
> > > > > > > Imagination: "He who has imagination without learning has wings
> > but
> > > > no
> > > > > > > feet." ~Joseph Joubert
>
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > > > Groups
> > > > > > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > > > > > To post to this group, send email to
> > > > > > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > > > > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
>
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
manny
<dafsmo@googlemail.com>That what I said he called an atheist Jew and I said why don't you
call a Christian atheist or a Muslims atheist right?
Atheist is atheist and there it stop it had nothing to do where you
born who's your father, mother or anyone it's only you that what you
( the atheist ) choose your way, that your choice. Religion is not
a name, religion is a belief and an action. A way people Choose to
take. Atheism also a way people like you chooses to take, where that
way goes it's up to you, if you need to take it on your own, you are
free to do so, when it get harder it's up to you what to do, to make
it easier, there are many things you can do.
Example: take drugs, alcohol,sex,and many other shit, but they are
all temporarily fix, that way it still be harder deep inside, if you
know I mean it's not what you have as materials or houses or any
other shit that make your way it's what you feel inside that body of
yours and you can never know what others feel, you just assume they
feel just like what you are feeling or worse off but you don't know
shit.
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
hucktunes
<bob.huck@gmail.com>What the heck do you mean by 'modern scotish identity' and what does
that have to do with being an American of Scottish descent? Also what
did you tell Ken to shove, and where?
hucktunes
<bob.huck@gmail.com>> I would agree, however,
> that being a carrier of this genetic marker is no indication of
> whether or not this individual would identify himself as being
> Jewish.
Agreed. Those polled must have identified themselves as Ashkenazi
Jews.
On Jan 16, 1:41 pm, Bill A <williamangel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Well, some might disagree with the assertions that "Nobody's
> ethnicity shows in their DNA"
> To cite an example that indicates a connection between ethnicity and
> DNA, here is some material from the Hadassah Medical Center web site:
>
> "Canavan Disease: Canavan disease is a serious hereditary disease,
> where the substance acetyl-aspartate accumulates in the brain. As a
> consequence, the baby’s brain cells deteriorate, resulting in severe
> mental and physical retardation, and death.
> The disease is relatively common in Ashkenazi Jews, about 1:10,000
> births, and very rare in other ethnic groups. About one out of every
> 50 Ashkenazi Jews is a carrier of Canavan Disease. The tests are
> offered only to couples where both partners are Ashkenazi or partly
> Ashkenazi. Most carriers can be identified by testing for two
> mutations in the gene associated with the disease."
>
> See:http://www.hadassah-med.com/English/Eng_SubNavBar/Departments/Medical...
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>Shhhhh!
The question was for LL and DK has raised a very interesting point in
the context of this thread.
I'd really like to see how LL covers this one off. Not because I smell
blood, but because DK has (purposely or not) uncovered (at least in my
mind) an argument that will likely polarise opinion, but it may also
deconstruct notions of ethnicity and religion into their salient
parts, if that's possible. And perhaps by doing so, manifestations of
ethnicity and religious observances regarding Judaism and claimed
Jewish ethnicity may really be, one & the same beast.
The Ken example that DK raises again, in my mind, draws some very
interesting parallels to this 'debate'.
So, if you wouldn't mind....shut up. We've read hundreds of posts on
this with you battling with others. We know what you think. Let some
others have a go eh?
hucktunes
<bob.huck@gmail.com>are an ancient people with a unique ethnicity.
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>On 19 Jan, 00:30, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> Hucktunes,
>
> Shhhhh!
>
> The question was for LL and DK has raised a very interesting point in
> the context of this thread.
>
> I'd really like to see how LL covers this one off. Not because I smell
> blood, but because DK has (purposely or not) uncovered (at least in my
> mind) an argument that will likely polarise opinion,
Thing is, i tend to agree with LL in that "If you wanna say your X,
what the hell" however, when the group your identifying with turns
around and says "actually, you dont qualify" where does that leave the
original claim.
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>we all know yours
"Look at all those deluded white people pretending to be
Semites, taking on phony Semitic sounding names, pretending that they
are descended from some sort of magical lost tribe of some sort of
special, holy people. Bullshit. I feel sorry for the poor, deluded
souls that were raised to believe they are Jews"
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 16, 11:10 am, hucktunes <bob.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Jan 15, 7:23 pm, hucktunes <bob.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > LL: Nobody's ethnicity shows in their DNA. Ethnicity is a human
> > construct, it is not physical.
>
> Sure, ethnicity means simply 'association'. Being Jewish is much like
> being a Mason or a hippie. But its not like being Italian or Greek or
> English or Arabic.
LL: Why not? What's the difference? Unless you're talking about
nationhood. But most Jews do consider themselves part of a nation--
wherever they have settled, especially if it's been for several
generations. That's why they are referred to as German Jews, Italian
Jews, French Jews, American Jews, Israeli Jews, etc.
***************
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 16, 1:41 pm, Bill A <williamangel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Well, some might disagree with the assertions that "Nobody's
> ethnicity shows in their DNA"
> To cite an example that indicates a connection between ethnicity and
> DNA, here is some material from the Hadassah Medical Center web site:
>
> "Canavan Disease: Canavan disease is a serious hereditary disease,
> where the substance acetyl-aspartate accumulates in the brain. As a
> consequence, the baby’s brain cells deteriorate, resulting in severe
> mental and physical retardation, and death.
> The disease is relatively common in Ashkenazi Jews, about 1:10,000
> births, and very rare in other ethnic groups. About one out of every
> 50 Ashkenazi Jews is a carrier of Canavan Disease. The tests are
> offered only to couples where both partners are Ashkenazi or partly
> Ashkenazi. Most carriers can be identified by testing for two
> mutations in the gene associated with the disease."
>
> See:http://www.hadassah-med.com/English/Eng_SubNavBar/Departments/Medical...
>
> So there does appear to be a correlation between ethnic identification
> and one's heredity, strong enough to increase the likelihood of being
> afflicted with certain hereditary diseases. I would agree, however,
> that being a carrier of this genetic marker is no indication of
> whether or not this individual would identify himself as being
> Jewish.
LL: My point exactly. Statistics, like DNA, don't prove ethnicity.
They might show that there is the likelihood of some genetic
connection, that's all. That connection could be just one rogue
ancestor.
********************
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 16, 6:45 pm, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> LL, I couldn't agree with you more and I'm pretty sure you understand
> where I'm coming from here too, however the issue IMO really comes
> down to one of honesty with the so called atheist Jew. If you claim to
> be Jewish, you've gotta take the package, not just the bits that you
> like.
LL: Well, that's your position. There are a lot of people who think
differently on this issue.
>
> Jewish culture is inextricably entwined with it's religion. Jewish
> customs, Jewish preparation of food, Jewish holidays and Jewish
> Zionism etc are all born from religious interperations or observances.
LL: Yes, they do come from that, but I'm not sure that giving up the
basic religion means a person should be prevented from calling himself
Jewish if that's what he feels he belongs to.
>
> Jews in New York or Moscow or Warsaw or Vienna, or Berlin, or wherever
> are interconnected by their religion and religious observances, not by
> the language of their citizenship, nor by sporting pastimes, or
> whatever foodstuffs they may eat; or really much else. The thing that
> links Jews is their religion and their customary observances of
> same.
>
> If a person who was brought up in a Jewish household, but subsequently
> decided that atheism is their path to follow, then to retain the
> Jewish tag is really a misnomer. Sure, the 'atheist' Jew may feel
> pressure to stay part of the community and as such may also endeavour
> to reaffirm their ethnic or cultural Jewishness, even when they don't
> believe in God, in order to live with their pious neighbours.
>
> But this is simply societal pressure at work. One doesn't want to be a
> pariah in one's own community.
>
> But if they were 'fair dinkum' about it, they'd just drop the Jewish
> tag, and simply call themselves an atheist. If they want to elaborate,
> fine....call oneself an Atheist or join groups like American Atheists
> or like me, the Atheist Foundation of Australia.
LL: Well, that's your opinion. Do you really think people who think
differently should go along with your assessment?
>
> One obvious difficulty (IMO) when calling oneself an atheist Jew is
> that it allows the anti semites to argue that if a Jew themselves
> doesn't believe in God, then they must be able to claim their
> Jewishness is born from something else.
LL: I don't think anyone should worry too much about what anti-
Semites will argue. They will take their anti-Semitic position no
matter what Jews do. They don't come to their bigotry through rational
thought.
>
> And we know how many evil people have worked that one (and still do)
>
> Judaism is a religion. This is non negotiable.
>
> Jewish ethnicity is born from and manifests itself with religious
> observances.
>
> "Judaism is the oldest monotheistic religion, and the history of
> Judaism cannot be separated from the history of the Jewish people".
> Reference:http://www.abc.net.au/religion/stories/s796551.htm
LL: You make some good points, but I still say it's up to the
individual as to what they call themselves and how they identify
themselves with others they consider to be in the group. I know many
Jews who are either atheist or "secular," meaning that they don't
attend Jewish services regularly, but they identify with others who
call themselves Jews, perhaps because they share a history. So
shouldn't that be their choice? Some will claim that no one is Jewish
whose mother was not Jewish, but a lot of people I know call
themselves Jews whose mothers are not Jewish--and some of them embrace
the religion. Orthodox Jews don't generally recognize people as Jews
unless they are Orthodox. So, according to them, all conservative and
reform Jews are not really Jews. Who's to say where the line should be
drawn or that it should be drawn at all? Drawing lines gets us all
into dangerous territory. Hitler claimed he knew where the line
should be drawn.
My point is that there is no hard and fast rule as to who is Jewish
and what it means--and who'd make that rule, anyway? To some people it
means the religion, to others it means what they see as the social or
genetic connection. I don't know that anyone should force their views
on others who consider themselves Jewish, no matter whether they
practice the religion or not. It should be up to the individual to
decide where he belongs in the Jewish spectrum.
***************
> > > > > > > > > > Why...
>
> read more »
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 16, 7:03 pm, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> What does?
>
> Conforming to religious ceremonies would be one! How about a Jewish
> wedding for an atheist couple. A Jewish wedding ceremony with all the
> religious overtones. Reference:http://www.aish.com/jl/l/48969841.html
>
> Would it surprise anyone that atheists have been married in a
> Synagogue (or a Church or a Mosque) over the years, thus allowing the
> couple to satisfy the pious family members & to not rock the boat.
> Good little Jewish boys & girls, still toeing the religious line of
> their parents & families religion.
>
> Not me though.
>
> I was married in a civil ceremony by a civil celebrant.
>
> We didn't invite our guests to an atheists wedding, but we sure as
> shit didn't mumble to a frock wearer either. My wife came from a
> catholic background and she was as brave as can be to get married out
> of the church. Her aunt (who was a Nun) wouldn't attend our wedding.
> What a blessing! (intended)
LL: But that was your choice. How would you feel if there were some
"authority" deciding for you whether or not you should be able to have
a Jewish wedding or whether you were entitled to have a secular one?
>
> My wife isn't an atheist Catholic. She's an atheist.
LL: But it's her choice to make that designation. Besides that
"Catholic" IS just a religion. Nobody claims it's an ethnicity. Many
Jews DO claim it's an ethnicity.
Do you really think someone should be in charge of making rules as to
who is Jewish and who is not and what kind of Jews should be entitled
to have a Jewish wedding?
****************************
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 17, 5:03 am, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk> wrote:
LL: Ethnic identity should be decided by the individual. Most
Americans misinterpret their ethnic identity, anyway. I wouldn't want
anyone to be in charge of who is and who isn't qualified to be a
member of any ethnic group. I agree that some people put too much
importance on something that is poorly defined anyway, but, IMO, they
should be allowed to make that error.
*********************
>
>
>
>
>
> > *****************
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>the fact is you know nothing about my views on "jewish ethnicity" but
we all know yours
"Look at all those deluded white people pretending to be
Semites, taking on phony Semitic sounding names, pretending that they
are descended from some sort of magical lost tribe of some sort of
special, holy people. Bullshit. I feel sorry for the poor, deluded
souls that were raised to believe they are Jews"
And there are many other quotable quotes along those lines.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
To post to this group, send email to atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>How do you see this expressed? BTW, Is it you or your husband who is
originally from the UK? I only ask because you may have been witness
to examples of exactly this "misinterpretation".
> I wouldn't want
> anyone to be in charge of who is and who isn't qualified to be a
> member of any ethnic group.
In the spirit of Devil's Advocate, although you are not in charge,
havent you just made that qualification above?
> I agree that some people put too much
> importance on something that is poorly defined anyway, but, IMO, they
> should be allowed to make that error.
As rationalists, shouldnt we be pointing out their error?
And i agree that it isnt the most important question in the world but
any thread that makes it past 20 odd posts at the moment is at least
entertaining.
>
> *********************
>
>
>
>
>
> > > *****************- Hide quoted text -
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>On 19 Jan, 08:40, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 2:09 AM, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk>wrote:
>
> > the fact is you know nothing about my views on "jewish ethnicity" but
> > we all know yours
>
> > "Look at all those deluded white people pretending to be
> > Semites, taking on phony Semitic sounding names, pretending that they
> > are descended from some sort of magical lost tribe of some sort of
> > special, holy people. Bullshit. I feel sorry for the poor, deluded
> > souls that were raised to believe they are Jews"
>
> And there are many other quotable quotes along those lines.
and believe me, im doing my best not to bite ;0)
> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
>
> --
> -------------------------
> "Belief shuts the mind and inquiry opens it." --Observer
>
> Demagogue: "one who will preach doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he
> knows to be idiots." -- H.L. Mencken.
>
> Imagination: "He who has imagination without learning has wings but no
> feet." ~Joseph Joubert- Hide quoted text -
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>means you have to buy the package deal (believing in the X
monotheistic God and all that) then according to the rules of being an
X, you're not an X in any way, shape of form.
So if you want to say your X, sure, by all means I suppose. But when
being an X requires religiosity and one can't articulate what
constitutes being a non religious X is (ethnicity), then how can you
validly claim to be X when you don't adhere to the rules of being an
X.
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>On Jan 19, 3:47 pm, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Jan 16, 6:45 pm, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
>
> > LL, I couldn't agree with you more and I'm pretty sure you understand
> > where I'm coming from here too, however the issue IMO really comes
> > down to one of honesty with the so called atheist Jew. If you claim to
> > be Jewish, you've gotta take the package, not just the bits that you
> > like.
>
> LL: Well, that's your position. There are a lot of people who think
> differently on this issue.
OK, I'll buy that. There are deluded god nutters in this group who
also think differently to me, so if we're working truisms, good to go!
> > Jewish culture is inextricably entwined with it's religion. Jewish
> > customs, Jewish preparation of food, Jewish holidays and Jewish
> > Zionism etc are all born from religious interperations or observances.
>
> LL: Yes, they do come from that, but I'm not sure that giving up the
> basic religion means a person should be prevented from calling himself
> Jewish if that's what he feels he belongs to.
And that's my point. You've already conceded that claiming to be
Jewish up to the individual and personally, that's AOK with me. My
problem is the person who calls themselves an 'Atheist Jew'. From
every perspective & reading I've done on the matter, part of being a
Jew is either acting with religiosity or adopting the religious
practices of the Jewish community.
What would an Atheist Jew do ethnically, that corresponds with
something that is intrinsically Jewish in nature, but is not religious
or religiously based?
> > Jews in New York or Moscow or Warsaw or Vienna, or Berlin, or wherever
> > are interconnected by their religion and religious observances, not by
> > the language of their citizenship, nor by sporting pastimes, or
> > whatever foodstuffs they may eat; or really much else. The thing that
> > links Jews is their religion and their customary observances of
> > same.
>
> > If a person who was brought up in a Jewish household, but subsequently
> > decided that atheism is their path to follow, then to retain the
> > Jewish tag is really a misnomer. Sure, the 'atheist' Jew may feel
> > pressure to stay part of the community and as such may also endeavour
> > to reaffirm their ethnic or cultural Jewishness, even when they don't
> > believe in God, in order to live with their pious neighbours.
>
> > But this is simply societal pressure at work. One doesn't want to be a
> > pariah in one's own community.
>
> > But if they were 'fair dinkum' about it, they'd just drop the Jewish
> > tag, and simply call themselves an atheist. If they want to elaborate,
> > fine....call oneself an Atheist or join groups like American Atheists
> > or like me, the Atheist Foundation of Australia.
>
> LL: Well, that's your opinion. Do you really think people who think
> differently should go along with your assessment?
>
Eh? I think I've had a few god nutters say exactly the same thing to
me? LL, no is the answer, but I thought I was supposed to convey my
opinions here. I mean, that is the point isn't it?
> > One obvious difficulty (IMO) when calling oneself an atheist Jew is
> > that it allows the anti semites to argue that if a Jew themselves
> > doesn't believe in God, then they must be able to claim their
> > Jewishness is born from something else.
>
> LL: I don't think anyone should worry too much about what anti-
> Semites will argue. They will take their anti-Semitic position no
> matter what Jews do. They don't come to their bigotry through rational
> thought.
I certainly agree that anti semites don't arrive at their bigotry
through any rational thought process however many see Jews as a race
of peoples, set aside from the rest of the community and not simply a
group of people who happen to follow a religion. Even the term anti
semite creates connotations of race. Anti Semite was a term first
coined by the German journalist Wilhelm Marr dating from the 1870's.
He coined the term on the erroneous racial belief of long standing
According to this belief, Jews are a race, distinct from other races
and distinguished by undesirable, genetically inherited qualities
unique to Jews (The Holocaust Chronicle - Publications International
Ltd) In the same reference through the Spertus Institute of Jewish
Studies, it goes on "Continued use of the term "anti Semitism"
inadvertantly perpetuates its unfounded connotation.......in that it's
prejudicial meaning is quickly comprehensible - while implicitly
denying the erroneous reasoning indulged in by Marr and other like
him.
This excerpt is clear and definitive (from the same source) " Jews do
not comprise a race. Rather, they are united by faith, history,
tradition AND other cultural qualities.
Faith is an intrinsic component of being Jewish, so to be an atheist
Jew who\ does not accept the core tenet of what it means to be Jewish
is really, not Jewish.
It's not me saying so, it's 'their' rules.
And like I said LL, I tend to agree with you on your observation. If
someone wants to call themselves a fucking Martian, good luck to 'em.
But that doesn't mean I have to bottle up my opinion on a friggin
debating group does it?
> ...
>
> read more »
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>context of 'atheist Jews' I simply came up with one example, where an
atheist Jewish couple could go through a traditional (read religious)
wedding ceremony. That'd be an example of Jewish culture I would have
thought.
I simply used my wedding experience as an example of an atheist couple
not conforming to cultural mores.
LL, I do think you read too muchj into what I'm saying, or I'm not
writing clearly enough!
> ...
>
> read more »
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>My 'national' ancestry is predominantly English, German, Scottish &
Polish
But that probably all means squat as before there were maps with
borders, there were wandering celtic, saxon, germanic and slavic
peoples who went here & there. No passports needed back then. All of
these guys were my antecedents. They no doubt brought their various
cultures with them, including music, food preparation, clothes,
supernatural beliefs, attitudes and everything else that constitutes
ethnicity and culture I suppose.
Now all this cultural 'stuff' has mixed up in a melting pot of sorts
and has resulted in me eating what I eat, listening to the music that
I do and with the attitudes that I have. My socialisation and
politicisation is also the result of where I live, my socio economic
demographic and the social mores that have evolved in my particular
millieu.
For me, this diverse & rich mixture of cultural influences cannot be
pinpointed to any one ethnic or cultural source which is why, when
asked who I am, I say, I'm an Australian. And depending on who & what
we're talking about, an Australian atheist.
Then again, perhaps I should call myself an atheist Celt!
I mean, I love Celtic art.
Nah, that makes no fuckin' sense.
> ...
>
> read more »
LL
<llpens@aol.com>LL: Thanks for clearing that up, Manny.
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>On 19 Jan, 09:49, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> And when this group says you don't qualify as an X, because to be X
> means you have to buy the package deal (believing in the X
> monotheistic God and all that) then according to the rules of being an
> X, you're not an X in any way, shape of form.
mmmm, but that goes for all religious groups. catholics aint
christian, southern baptist aint christian, Sufis aint muslim, blah
blah blah.
>
> So if you want to say your X, sure, by all means I suppose. But when
> being an X requires religiosity and one can't articulate what
> constitutes being a non religious X is (ethnicity), then how can you
> validly claim to be X when you don't adhere to the rules of being an
> X.
Not being religious or X, i can only go with the rabbi in the doc i
posted "secular jews only have the out group mentality to hold them
together".
He considered that a significant problem, and his view is probably
closer to your view than the liberal atheists arguing "meh, whatever".
> > > > > > *****************- Hide quoted text -
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>On 19 Jan, 10:49, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> Oh, just another thought on this too.
>
> My 'national' ancestry is predominantly English, German, Scottish &
> Polish
>
> But that probably all means squat as before there were maps with
> borders, there were wandering celtic, saxon, germanic and slavic
> peoples who went here & there. No passports needed back then. All of
> these guys were my antecedents. They no doubt brought their various
> cultures with them, including music, food preparation, clothes,
> supernatural beliefs, attitudes and everything else that constitutes
> ethnicity and culture I suppose.
>
> Now all this cultural 'stuff' has mixed up in a melting pot of sorts
> and has resulted in me eating what I eat, listening to the music that
> I do and with the attitudes that I have. My socialisation and
> politicisation is also the result of where I live, my socio economic
> demographic and the social mores that have evolved in my particular
> millieu.
>
> For me, this diverse & rich mixture of cultural influences cannot be
> pinpointed to any one ethnic or cultural source which is why, when
> asked who I am, I say, I'm an Australian. And depending on who & what
> we're talking about, an Australian atheist.
>
> Then again, perhaps I should call myself an atheist Celt
>
> I mean, I love Celtic art.
Show me an ancient celtic jar of veggemite, and i may agree to your
self identification.
>
> Nah, that makes no fuckin' sense.
about as much sense as a bunch of sepos wandering around edinburgh,
demanding neeps and tatties.
> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -
LL
<llpens@aol.com>LL: I never claimed to be "in charge." I wouldn't want to be, in any
case. Who should be in charge of deciding whether they are making an
error in the first place?
******
************************************
LL
<llpens@aol.com>On Jan 19, 1:49 am, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> And when this group says you don't qualify as an X, because to be X
> means you have to buy the package deal (believing in the X
> monotheistic God and all that) then according to the rules of being an
> X, you're not an X in any way, shape of form.
>
> So if you want to say your X, sure, by all means I suppose. But when
> being an X requires religiosity
LL: Who says it requires religiosity? Certainly not everyone or even a
majority.
***************************
LL
<llpens@aol.com>
LL: Where did I say that? I simply disagreed with you on some issues.
I never said you shouldn't express your opinion.
***************
> > > > have had no real connection with other ones. Yet...
>
> read more »
chazwin
<chazwyman@yahoo.com>Beware of negative evidence.
They do, but this thread is not atheism verses Judaism, is it>
On Jan 14, 4:11 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
hucktunes
<bob.huck@gmail.com>> LL: Why not? What's the difference? Unless you're talking about
> nationhood. But most Jews do consider themselves part of a nation--
> wherever they have settled, especially if it's been for several
> generations. That's why they are referred to as German Jews, Italian
> Jews, French Jews, American Jews, Israeli Jews, etc.
The 'nation' you speak of is called the diaspora, the dispersion. It
is based on the fantastic notion that there was once a great nation
called Israel that was destroyed by Assyrians and the people sold into
slavery to the four corners of the world but somehow managed to
survive as a separate, distinct people.
On Jan 18, 11:47 pm, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
> Some will claim that no one is Jewish
> whose mother was not Jewish, but a lot of people I know call
> themselves Jews whose mothers are not Jewish--and some of them embrace
> the religion.
That's how people become Jewish. They start calling themselves
Jewish.
On Jan 18, 11:47 pm, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
> My point is that there is no hard and fast rule as to who is Jewish
> and what it means--and who'd make that rule, anyway? To some people it
> means the religion, to others it means what they see as the social or
> genetic connection. I don't know that anyone should force their views
> on others who consider themselves Jewish, no matter whether they
> practice the religion or not. It should be up to the individual to
> decide where he belongs in the Jewish spectrum.
Is it truthful to make up fantastic stories about fantastic lost
civilizations and claim to be descended from fierce warriors and kings
that were chosen by god? No. Its a religion.
> ...
>
> read more »
hucktunes
<bob.huck@gmail.com>> the fact is you know nothing about my views on "jewish ethnicity" but
> we all know yours
>
> "Look at all those deluded white people pretending to be
> Semites, taking on phony Semitic sounding names, pretending that they
> are descended from some sort of magical lost tribe of some sort of
> special, holy people. Bullshit. I feel sorry for the poor, deluded
> souls that were raised to believe they are Jews"
Here are two examples. Ben-Gurion was born David Grün in Poland. Levi
Eshkol was born Levi Školnik in Ukraine. Changing your name to a
Semitic sounding name does not magically make one a Semite.
Dead Kennedy
<dead.kennedy@live.co.uk>It was more in the spirit of discussion than a demand that you take
responsibility.
> Who should be in charge of deciding whether they are making an
> error in the first place?
but you consider it an error?
Max
<assent@pcfin.net>And this is where the impasse is too I guess.
Let's look at the very first paragraph of Wiki's (Conversion to
Judaism) I know it's not the be all & end all, but it's a great start.
"Conversion to Judaism (Hebrew: גיור, giyur) is a formal act
undertaken by a non-Jewish person who wishes to be recognised as a
full member of the Jewish community. A Jewish conversion is both a
religious act and an expression of association with the Jewish people.
[1] A formal conversion is also sometimes undertaken to remove any
doubt as to the Jewishness of a person who wishes to be considered a
Jew."
If I as a non Jew wished to become a Jew, I can't just say that I am.
I have to go through a process to do so. "Jewish conversion is BOTH a
religious act AND an expression of association with the Jewish people"
The co-ordinating conjunctive has these two issues (association and
religion) as part of the deal.
So, if someone says they want to pull the plug on the religious aspect
of being a Jew, then as a direct consequence of the articulated
process to become one in the first place, this clearly is
contradictory as because being Jewish entails both association &
religiosity. So by calling oneself an Atheist Jew, you're really just
having a wank.