If there is an afterlife........??

[Max]

Could there be a before life?

I get the feeling that theists & spiritualists can't get their
collective heads around the notion of 'oblivion' or 'non existence'
after death.

Before I was born, I was nothing. I didn't exist in any manner at all.
I was without form or feature. A non entity.

Why can't Christians accept that what they 'were' before they were
born (which they can obviously acknowledge), is exactly what they'll
be after they die.

Why all this hocus pocus about an after life?

Is it just a fear of their own mortality?

[e_space]

as somebody who has no belief in "spirit" your factual sounding
opinion is understandable. since the existence of "spirit" is
definitely not provable, your skepticism is justified, but those who
have had NDE or OBE for example, disagree with you. my personal
feeling is that all humans have a "spirit" but that very few actually
spend the time to discover it, nurture it and make it grow ... i call
it "spirit polishing" ... of course this is met by derision, but thats
expected and does not change anything.

until one has taken the time to do some "soul searching", they will
continue to be skeptical about the existence of "spirit", outside of
that found in a bottle that is. those who have had "spiritual"
experiences feel that this part of their existing body will leave
after the death of their flesh and bones [the old "energy cannot be
created nor destroyed" scenario] ... i am not talking about xtians or
the xtian heaven here, as being religious is not joined at the hip
with having "spiritual" experiences. "god" is only related to religion
because some ancient guys said it was ...

of course, this is absolutely ludicrous to those with no belief in any
advanced existence to their current being ... they anticipate feeding
worms in their future, and this is fine and really has no impact on
those who disagree with them ... in other words, what is hocus pocus
to you, is joyful anticipation to them, and to them your worm feeding
expectancy is mundane, short sighted and "spiritually" void ... to
each their own i guess ... i certainly dont begrudge either outlook
myself ... why do you?

[Max]

You again hurl yourself along the same well worn path.

But my key question was, "Could there be a before life"?

But for the record once again!

1. I have no idea what a 'spirit' is? Can you explain what it please?
2. What is a 'soul'. If you can describe one for me, then I'd be happy
to 'search' within it.
3. You use the term 'feel' or 'feeling' twice to explain this thing
you call a 'spirit'. How does one know that a 'feeling' correlates to
'spirit'? Is this just guesswork?

Lastly, I begrudge no one of an opinion. However, in a debating forum,
the protocol is pretty straightforward. Someone poses a point of view
and another opposes it.

Why do you begrudge me the opportunity to hold an opinion in a
debating forum and further, to prosecute that opinion.

If everyone agreed on everything or agreed to disagree, then there
would be know debating forum.

Is this what you want?

[e_space]

are you suggesting that you havent brought up hocus pocus in regards
to the existence of "spirit" before? maybe if you stop repeating your
opinion about this, i will stop "hurling" myself down this circulatory
path?

no i cannot explain what "spirit" is, either you recognize it, or you
dont ... in your case, you dont

please read my last sentence ... it states that i DON'T begrudge your
opinion??? im not yelling, but just putting it in capital letters so
hopefully you can see it this time ... anyway, you have repeated this
opinion so often that i dont think you should describe my patient
reaction as hurling myself down a path simply because i am commenting
on it ... again

[Deidzoeb]

On Jul 29, 4:57 am, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:

> Could there be a before life?
>
> I get the feeling that theists & spiritualists can't get their
> collective heads around the notion of 'oblivion' or 'non existence'
> after death.
>
> Before I was born, I was nothing. I didn't exist in any manner at all.
> I was without form or feature. A non entity.
>
> Why can't Christians accept that what they 'were' before they were
> born (which they can obviously acknowledge), is exactly what they'll
> be after they die.

I can think of movies that show souls existing before they're "born"
into physical bodies, but I'm not sure if any Christian denominations
endorse that idea. Oh yeah, and there's "Belly Button Window" by Jimi
Hendrix:

Well, I'm up here in this womb
I'm looking all around
Well, I'm looking out my belly button window
And I see a whole lot of frowns
And I'm wondering if they don't want me around

What seems to be the fuzz out there?
Just what seems to be the hang?
'Cause you know if ya just don't want me this time around,
Yeah I'll be glad to go back to Spirit Land
And even take a longer rest,
Before I'm coming down the chute again
Man, I sure remember the last time, baby
They were still hawkin' about me then
So if you don't want me now,
Make up your mind, where or when
If you don't want me now,
Give or take, you only got two hundred days
'Cause I ain't coming down this way too much more again

You know they got pills for ills and thrills and even spills
But I think you're just a little too late
So I'm coming down into this world, daddy
Regardless of love and hate
And I'm gonna sit up in your bed, mama
And just a grin right in your face
And then I'm gonna eat up all your chocolates,
And say "I hope I'm not too late"

So if there's any questions,
Make up your mind
'Cause you better give or take
Questions in your mind
Give it a take,
You only got two hundred days

Way up into this womb
Looking all around
Sure's dark in here
And I'm looking out my belly button window
And I swear I see nothing but a lot of frowns
And I'm wondering if they want me around.

> Why all this hocus pocus about an after life?
>
> Is it just a fear of their own mortality?

Doesn't matter what motivates their beliefs, as long as we can tell
that the beliefs are baseless.

[Max]

It's like pulling teeth, isn't it!?

"Could there be a before life"

[e_space]

no it isnt ... because eventually one would run out of teeth to
pull ... circulatory commentary never runs out it seems ...

[Max]

Nice!

I once read somewhere when a Christian said that they were born
again.......some wag said......which womb was that then?

Ooooh dunno about the motivation bit DZ.

If Auntie Edna is motivated to make lamingtons for her Sunday church
fete, then good luck to the old girl, but if Achmed Bin Blowyalegoff
is chasing 72 virgins with a backpack full of gelignite, well I've got
a problem with that motivation I'm afraid.

I do get what you're saying re: both having baseless beliefs, but
there are degrees of insanity.

Cheers

[Max]

Well stop talking to Brock then.

Third time

"Could there be a before life"

[Deidzoeb]

On Jul 30, 5:18 am, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:
> Nice!
>
> I once read somewhere when a Christian said that they were born
> again.......some wag said......which womb was that then?
>
> Ooooh dunno about the motivation bit DZ.
>
> If Auntie Edna is motivated to make lamingtons for her Sunday church
> fete, then good luck to the old girl, but if Achmed Bin Blowyalegoff
> is chasing 72 virgins with a backpack full of gelignite, well I've got
> a problem with that motivation I'm afraid.

That's an action, not a motivation. I mean what matters is the actions
or the stupid claims of theists, not why they do unreasonable things
or make unsupported claims. We can show how their actions are harmful
or unhelpful, and show that their claims aren't believable. That's
better than guessing or speculating about why they do it.

[Max]

I see, fair enough.

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Jul 29, 6:35 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> as somebody who has no belief in "spirit" your factual sounding
> opinion is understandable. since the existence of "spirit" is
> definitely not provable, your skepticism is justified, but those who
> have had NDE or OBE for example, disagree with you. my personal
> feeling is that all humans have a "spirit" but that very few actually
> spend the time to discover it, nurture it and make it grow ... i call
> it "spirit polishing" ... of course this is met by derision, but thats
> expected and does not change anything.

Is your personal feeling that this spirit existed before conception
and will exist after death?

[e_space]

really? wow ... how profound and caring ... if i thought someone was
fucked up i would want to help them ... when someone is freaking out
on lsd you dont ask them what is wrong with them ... that just about
kills them ...

what you claim as "stupid" is often wishful thinking, joy related,
something to replace their abject unhappiness with because their
environment doesnt live up to their physical expectations, or just
because they were born into it ...

the fact that they perceive something else might have created such a
perfect place for them to live, or use it as a crutch for their
unhappiness, or actually experiencing "spiritual growth" [i know,
thats an alien myth] ... is pure bunkum to your lot ... you think that
we mutated from some amoeba and so what ... wow ... im so thrilled ...
i cant WAIT to be worm candy!

as far as speculation is concerned ... you speculate ... you have your
ideas about worm candy , and about evolution that science hasnt given
you answers for ... you call other peoples beliefs, even their
premonitions, bunk. you make factual sounding statements that lack the
scientific knowledge to validate them ... sorta sad that you crap on
people for speculating, when you do it yourself ... no?

[Max]

Good luck if he answers you ranjit......I've asked him the same
question 3 times, all to no avail. He's probably busy 'polishing his
knob', sorry.....his spirit!

I think he's onto us. If he answers either yes or no, the follow up
questions will cause some discomfort I suspect.

And I think he knows it too.


On Jul 31, 10:41 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"

[e_space]

yes .. imw "spirit" is energy ... it has no form, you cant touch
it ... its the spark in someones eyes that no other animal has
[sorta] ... but im tired of "debating" something that a large
percentage of people think is crap ...

anyway, imo, i dont think "spirit" is individual [despite the
promotions of some that im trying to convert 'everyone' into my
cult] ... imc, its like you are not ranjit in the "next life" [which
isnt really a new life, but just a continuation of "spirit energy"
that is timeless long after the worm candy has stopped being serving
the daily buffet],

you have no personality, your existence is packed full of wisdom and
bliss that has NOTHING to do with earth ... actually, its about
nothing, for nothing, because of nothing ... but ongoing, like and
endless orgasm ... or whatever ... thats just my "kelsey religion" ...
but what the hell do i know? i dig it, and really, isnt that all that
counts? ;-^)

On Jul 30, 10:41 pm, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"

[e_space]

lol @ the distinguished member of the peanut gallery ...

id be onto you if there was something that merited climbing ... but
alas, the horizon is a stark, flat, and naked wasteland ... ooops ...
did i say that? my bad ...

its hilarious when you say you "i think", but that you are SO far off
the mark ... and you claim to be rational! you guys are starting to
resemble an out of control "reality" show ... quite sad really ... try
commenting from your perceived knowledge base, instead of your spewing
your simmering anger all over the thread for a change ... never know,
ya may like it ;-^)

[Max]

Told you ranjit.....he didn't answer your question (or mine)

On Jul 31, 10:41 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"
<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[Max]

Anger....really.....well how come I'm smiling every time I read one of
your posts?

You are great fun e_space!

I love playing with you.......your'e the nutters nutter. The creme de
la creme of nutters.

You just don't give up. No matter how silly you sound, so it's always
worth a dig here & a dig there.

Give us a kiss spacey.

XXX

[e_space]

awwwww ... thanks ... however, i'll have to take a rain cheque on
your last request if you dont mind ... i'll leave that up to your
twin ... thanks for the offer though ... for some reason, youre just
not my type ... besides, all i see is a chip on your shoulder, not a
cranium with a set of lips in it ;-^)

btw, if you 'love playing with me' and im 'great fun', why are you
telling me to grow up? ... not being slightly disingenuous are you? ;-
^)

[e_space]

maybe i did, but it just flew over your wee cranium there maximass ...
try rereading my post, thats a good boy ;-^)

[Max]

Tactics my dear boy, tactics.

One should try a range of responses don't you think? Can't be too
predictable can we.

Although I don't think that you've struck on that idea eh?

[Max]

Which bit spoke of a 'before life' oh great sage!

[Max]

Let me stick my 2 bob in then shall I?

On Jul 31, 11:45 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> yes .. imw "spirit" is energy ... it has no form, you cant touch
> it ...

Then how do you know what it is, fuckwit. Oh, silly me, you just do.
You polished your knob [sorry, spirit] and hey presto, you know what
it is?

its the spark in someones eyes that no other animal has
> [sorta] ...

sorta, sorta....you've got to be kidding me! Sorta....fucking
sorta.......What a bloody legend you are pal. How long did it take for
you to work that one out.

but im tired of "debating" something that a large
> percentage of people think is crap ...
>

Good for you. You're getting the message then!

> anyway, imo, i dont think "spirit" is individual [despite the
> promotions of some that im trying to convert 'everyone' into my
> cult] ...

Again, how the hell do you know. You really are a fuckin' loon pal.

imc, its like you are not ranjit in the "next life" [which
> isnt really a new life, but just a continuation of "spirit energy"
> that is timeless long after the worm candy has stopped being serving
> the daily buffet],

And They're coming to take me away Ha Ha
They're coming to take me away ho ho he he ha ha
to the funny farm where life is beautiful all the time,
and I'll be happy to see those nice young men in their clean white
coats
and they're coming to take me away ha ha

>
> you have no personality, your existence is packed full of wisdom and
> bliss that has NOTHING to do with earth ... actually, its about
> nothing, for nothing, because of nothing ...

"Nothing, for nothing, because of nothing". WTF, did you eat a packet
of Deepak Chopra this morning did you?

but ongoing, like and
> endless orgasm ...

I knew it, I bloody well knew it. Mary Rottencrotch from next door
came over to your place and had a fiddle and 3.52 seconds
later.........spirit energy.....!!!

or whatever ... thats just my "kelsey religion" ...
> but what the hell do i know? i dig it, and really, isnt that all that
> counts?  ;-^)

"You dig it". Groovy man. Wow, far out! Pass the acid man!

Now I've got it. You're a geriatric hippie, pining for the fjords eh?

You're a cracker spacey. An absolute joy.

BTW, which bit was about the 'before life' question ranjit & I asked
eh?

[thea]

The Jews believe that the *spirit* of man exists from the moment a
child takes it's first breath.
If we go on this premise then several verses of scripture which
say that *man* is known in his mothers womb would be wrong.
So is this another way of thinking that caused Israel to
sin and there be *set aside* that Jesus could come to the
Gentiles?

 

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[e_space]

comprehension101: ... remember this comment? "imc, its like you are

not ranjit in the "next life" [which isnt really a new life, but just
a continuation of "spirit energy" that is timeless long after the worm
candy has stopped being serving the daily buffet],

now, put your advanced and agile comprehension skills to work, and see
this makes sense ... if something is continuous and timeless, guess
what ... it doesnt have a birthdate! please give this some serious
thought ... do you really need me to spell it out for you?
unfortunately, the answer seems to be quite evident in your
thoughtless question ... ...

youre a quizzical guy maxine ... you crap on xtians for sport ... and
then have the gall to suggest that they replace their "hocus pocus"
fantasies with rational thought ... and yet you have to be walked you
through the simplest of commentary ...

you subject the forum to snotty persecution that you call satire, you
name call out of the front of your mouth, while whispering about how
great rational thought is compared to "myth" ... do you really think
this is the best way to grow your religion? ... like boaz said, you
should be ashamed of your behavior ...

i realize that i provoke you by blowing the odor of your spiteful and
mean "non-spirited" attitude back in your face ... there is no need to
get frustrated by my flippancy maxers ... just adjust yours and you
will not have to smell the rotting aroma blowing back at ya ...

[e_space]

lol ... youre spinning like a top sonny ... sorry i set you off ...
please go take a jog or something

[Max]

I'm sorry....what does 'imc' mean? Oh, so you've hidden the answer [I
think] in some gobbledelgook. Let's see now if I can get this right.
It's really hard to understand what you say master!

Next life means, the one after this real one, yeah? And as you're not
[say ranjit] in the next one, so then it seems then that 'ranjit'
won't be representative of this free flowing spirit energy correlate
to what was once ranjit, because this energy has always been. So
there's no 'before or after life' then, it's just a morass of spirit
energies, haphazardly [or by direction - not sure yet] energizing
their hosts & then moving on once the physical entity is no more.

It's like two worlds. One physical & one with a bunch of independent
spirit energies, dropping in & out.

How am I going spacey?

I know I shouldn't be learning from others [very bad form apparently],
but do I get an elephant stamp?

[Deidzoeb]

On Jul 30, 11:32 pm, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> really? wow ... how profound and caring ... if i thought someone was
> fucked up i would want to help them ... when someone is freaking out
> on lsd you dont ask them what is wrong with them ... that just about
> kills them ...

You don't ask them why they took the LSD, you treat them for the freak-
out (if there is any effective treatment for it).

What I think some atheists do is to insult theists by guessing at what
motivates people to believe unsupported supernatural religious claims.
For your example of someone having a bad trip on LSD, the equivalent
would be a nurse or doctor harassing the tripper about their
"character defects" or wishful thinking or whatever let the tripper to
use LSD in the first place, instead of taking action to minimize the
bad trip. (Again, I don't know if there is an effective treatment for
that, but making the person safe and maybe trying to "talk them down"
or do something to make them comfortable.)

> what you claim as "stupid" is often wishful thinking, joy related,
> something to replace their abject unhappiness with because their
> environment doesnt live up to their physical expectations, or just
> because they were born into it ...
>
> the fact that they perceive something else might have created such a
> perfect place for them to live, or use it as a crutch for their
> unhappiness, or actually experiencing "spiritual growth" [i know,
> thats an alien myth] ... is pure bunkum to your lot ... you think that
> we mutated from some amoeba and so what ... wow ... im so thrilled ...
> i cant WAIT to be worm candy!
>
> as far as speculation is concerned ... you speculate ... you have your
> ideas about worm candy

Are you trying to say afterlife? I assume that one doesn't exist, but
I'm open to the possibility. When I speculate, I don't take it as
seriously as things I can prove. People who claim there is an
afterlife with no proof of one are the ones who are guilty of taking
their speculation too seriously.

>, and about evolution that science hasnt given
> you answers for ...

It sounds like you and I disagree about what aspects of evolution have
been adequately proven.

> you call other peoples beliefs, even their
> premonitions, bunk. you make factual sounding statements that lack the
> scientific knowledge to validate them ... sorta sad that you crap on
> people for speculating, when you do it yourself ... no?

No. I was suggesting to an atheist that he not speculate needlessly
about the motivations of theists, and that he should argue about the
actions they take or the unsupported claims they make. You'd rather
see atheists continue speculating about the motivations of theists?

In any kind of argument, religion or politics or anything, it doesn't
get anyone closer to the truth when we speculate about each other's
feelings. I think people usually speculate about their opponent's
feelings or motivations because it can give ammunition for insults.
"You only say that because you feel scared of a universe that's not in
your control, so you believe in a sky-daddy who will be nice to you."
Saying that doesn't help prove that that religious claims are
implausible or not worth believing. So if that's the goal (and it
should be), then atheists should focus on why religious claims are
implausible, not waste time and lose credibility by speculating on
other people's feelings and honing our insults.