The Invention of the Jewish People: 19 weeks on best seller list in Israel

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

If Jews at large were to come to acknowledge that they were invented
rather than chosen by God, where would that leave fundamentalist
Christians?
http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=13569
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2852300.htm

[thea]

Too bad this question isn't worded differently.

Because the Cross of Jesus Christ is the Basis for Christianity.  And Because God chose Israel as His Chosen People are not for us to discuss.  God knows why He Chose Israel.

All who protect Israel - God protects, and all who do not protect Israel, God destroys.

I choose to protect Israel - because when studying history, you realize that what God said has proven true again and again and again.

God is the subject of the Bible and how HE has worked with mankind since making mankind for a specific purpose.  Only those who believe that God raised Jesus in this dispensation will make it into a kingdom that is coming after this Bible (7000 years of history and prophecy) is complete.

 

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[flying gorilla]

what are you personally doing to protect Israel? Have you killed any
Muslims?

On Mar 25, 11:17 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Too bad this question isn't worded differently.
> Because the Cross of Jesus Christ is the Basis for Christianity.  And
> Because God chose Israel as His Chosen People are not for us to discuss.
> God knows why He Chose Israel.
> All who protect Israel - God protects, and all who do not protect Israel,
> God destroys.
> I choose to protect Israel - because when studying history, you realize that
> what God said has proven true again and again and again.
> God is the subject of the Bible and how HE has worked with mankind since
> making mankind for a specific purpose.  Only those who believe that God
> raised Jesus in this dispensation will make it into a kingdom that is coming
> after this Bible (7000 years of history and prophecy) is complete.
>

> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 5:28 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <

>
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If Jews at large were to come to acknowledge that they were invented
> > rather than chosen by God, where would that leave fundamentalist
> > Christians?
> >http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=13569
> >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2852300.htm
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Walt]

Fundamentalist Christians have wanted to kill Jews for most of
history. Their desire to "help" them (that is, help them sow the
seeds of perennial hatred) may be a short-lived quirk in any case.

People have to face the fact that there is probably not a scrap of
useful land in world that has not unjustly changed owners at some
point in history. If you threaten or kill others in order to possess
a piece of land, well, that's the norm in human history. But spare me
the rationalization of why it's moral for you to do it. There is no
way all of the injustices of the past can be undone or fully
compensated for. The Arabs should forgive the Jews for squatting on
their land, if for no other reason, because it is very much in their
economic interest for the Jews to be there.

And BTW, every ethnicity has a lot of bullshit beliefs about its
origins and foundations. And generally it's constantly evolving
bullshit. Many early Zionists cared little about religious matters.
Many of them would have preferred a homeland that wasn't in the
desert.

On Mar 25, 6:28 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"

[thea]

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:25 AM, flying gorilla <ryan....@gmail.com> wrote:

what are you personally doing to protect Israel? Have you killed any
Muslims?

 

I personally can do nothing to protect Israel.  Because, you see, God says that when Israel as a Nation calls on their God (God the Father of Abraham, Isaac and Israel) that HE will answer their prayer and protect them and kill their adversaries.

The next war to come is Armageddon and that is Israel against every other country on earth.  So, we will all be fighting Israel. 

The Christians at the time of Armageddon are already transferred to the Bema Seat Judgment. (The Great Snatch, or Rapture of the Church has already taken place.)

So the people on earth are all non-believers who were left behind when the Rapture took place.

Israel is told in Prophecy that they will be redeemed by God - and that the Armies of the Almighty will fight their battle for them.

 

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[thea]

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:47 AM, Walt <wka...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Fundamentalist Christians have wanted to kill Jews for most of
history.  Their desire to "help" them (that is, help them sow the
seeds of perennial hatred) may be a short-lived quirk in any case.

 

 

Being reared in a Fundamentalist Christians parsonage (or manse - or church house), we never said that we wanted the Jews killed.  We have always understood that Christianity came from Judaism, and that Israel was the Chosen People and that God would again work with Israel as a Nation.  That when Jesus came to rule at the end of Revelation for 1000 years it would be in the National of Israel in Jerusalem.

The Roman Catholic Church does not revere Israel.  But Fundamentalist who understand that God will again reveal Himself to Israel - revere Israel.

People have to face the fact that there is probably not a scrap of
useful land in world that has not unjustly changed owners at some
point in history.  If you threaten or kill others in order to possess
a piece of land, well, that's the norm in human history.  But spare me
the rationalization of why it's moral for you to do it.  There is no
way all of the injustices of the past can be undone or fully
compensated for.  The Arabs should forgive the Jews for squatting on
their land, if for no other reason, because it is very much in their
economic interest for the Jews to be there.

And BTW, every ethnicity has a lot of bullshit beliefs about its
origins and foundations.  And generally it's constantly evolving
bullshit.  Many early Zionists cared little about religious matters.
Many of them would have preferred a homeland that wasn't in the
desert.

On Mar 25, 6:28 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"

<ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> If Jews at large were to come to acknowledge that they were invented
> rather than chosen by God, where would that leave fundamentalist

> Christians?http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=13569http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2852300.htm

[Khurram Chaudhry]

I was amazed that this is even an issue

of course it is a myth and the land of israel.

any sane atheist must know that israel has no right to exist as a nation

[Drafterman]

On Mar 25, 2:20 pm, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was amazed that this is even an issue
>
> of course it is a myth and the land of israel.
>
> any sane atheist must know that israel has no right to exist as a nation

Could you please outline, with rationale, what is necessary to obtain
the "right to exist as a nation"?

>
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:28 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <

>
>
>
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If Jews at large were to come to acknowledge that they were invented
> > rather than chosen by God, where would that leave fundamentalist
> > Christians?
> >http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=13569
> >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2852300.htm
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit­y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at

> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Walt]

On Mar 25, 2:20 pm, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I was amazed that this is even an issue
>
> of course it is a myth and the land of israel.
>
> any sane atheist must know that israel has no right to exist as a nation

If you look back far enough, every country owes it's existence to the
violent conquest of the land it occupies. In Israel's case, the
violent conquest is just more recent than most. The Muslim country of
Pakistan only exists because an illegitimate colonial power created
it. But you don't hear many Muslims demanding that Pakistan be
reunified with India. Even though Pakistan is a failed state which
makes its own populace miserable as well as exporting senseless
violence.

>
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:28 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <

>
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If Jews at large were to come to acknowledge that they were invented
> > rather than chosen by God, where would that leave fundamentalist
> > Christians?
> >http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=13569
> >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2852300.htm
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Musycks]

They made the wrong choice...

The Balfour Declaration of British Parliament near the end of WWI
dedicated the people of Britain to setting up a Jewish homeland.. they
had narrowed it down to 3 possible locations...Palestine, North Africa
(Ethiopia from memory) and...
Western Australia! If only they'd dumped the buggers in the middle of
the outback this shitstorm in the middle east would not have
happened.... post WWII they settled on Palestine to give the Brits a
buffer state between Russia and India.
Politics screws us again.
MR

for what it's worth... I think Israel is a disgrace and an illegal
state.

> > > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit­y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> > > .
> > > For more options, visit this group at

[Khurram Chaudhry]

yes

you may want to stop claiming your right over a land based on the bible

that might be a good start to obtain the right to exist.

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.

[thea]

God chose Abraham, Isaac and Israel to bring His plan of redemption to all of mankind.  God did it, God will keep Israel and Jerusalem will be the place where Jesus sets up His Kingdom on Earth as stated in Revelation.   It is funny that in looking at prophecy and then looking at what has happened in the past.  All of the prophecy in the Bible has come to pass.  There is very little yet to come to pass - but since looking back we can see how and why it happened just like the Bible said it would -- then what next doesn't need to be answered because we know that the next thing we will see is a Battle of Armageddon.  And without looking up the details, I believe Israel takes months to bury the dead that is like three feet deep.  And the bones that don't have flesh on them??

ugh!

Jesus is coming again for the people who believe and say with their mouths that they believe.  The Bible is true - and God is in complete charge.

Watch and see what happens next?  Biblical - you bet.

 

[Walt]

On Mar 25, 6:07 pm, Musycks <midi...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> They made the wrong choice...
>
> The Balfour Declaration of British Parliament near the end of WWI
> dedicated the people of Britain to setting up a Jewish homeland.. they
> had narrowed it down to 3 possible locations...Palestine, North Africa
> (Ethiopia from memory) and...
> Western Australia! If only they'd dumped the buggers in the middle of
> the outback this shitstorm in the middle east would not have
> happened.... post WWII they settled on Palestine to give the Brits a
> buffer state between Russia and India.
> Politics screws us again.
> MR
>
> for what it's worth... I think Israel is a disgrace and an illegal
> state.

The club is a very big one.

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.-Hide quoted text -

[Khurram Chaudhry]

such crazy and ignorant fucks!

did someone actually say that "palestine" was created to make a buffer between india and russia,

wow...I thought sarah palin was a disaster but this is laughable!

palestine is no where near india or russia!

and also, please not that israel has no right to exist for the atheist.

..and the atheist would probably not support the existence of pakistan either.

but I fail to see how the inviability of pakistan can determine if israel has the right to exist

this is typical zionist pig mentality. 

ciao!

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[Max]

Israel, like it or not, is a sovereign state.

What you don't like is how the state of Israel came about. Neither do
I, but the state of Israel exists. I do have problems with MOSSAD
using foreign passports to assassinate Hamas targets. I do have
problems with the way Palestinians are treated. I have a major problem
with Israel continuing to remain in the 'occupied territories' and
illegally erecting 'settler' housing and I have big problems (as does
the US, the UK & the UN) with the treatment of Palestinians and how
the Israelis are snubbing there noses at international opinion and
international law..

But is it helpful to the peace process to state that "Israel has no
right to exist".

No.

On Mar 26, 2:20 am, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was amazed that this is even an issue
>
> of course it is a myth and the land of israel.
>
> any sane atheist must know that israel has no right to exist as a nation
>

> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:28 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <

>
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If Jews at large were to come to acknowledge that they were invented
> > rather than chosen by God, where would that leave fundamentalist
> > Christians?
> >http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=13569
> >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2852300.htm
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Max]

thea, for goodness sake, stop using the bible as the justification for
any action.

It's simply daft of you to do so.

Perhaps, I should raise Mao's little red book of quotations or Hitlers
Mein Kampf to justify my actions.

The Bible, Maos quotations & Mein Kampf were all written by men.

On Mar 26, 6:44 am, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> God chose Abraham, Isaac and Israel to bring His plan of redemption to all
> of mankind.  God did it, God will keep Israel and Jerusalem will be the
> place where Jesus sets up His Kingdom on Earth as stated in Revelation.   It
> is funny that in looking at prophecy and then looking at what has happened
> in the past.  All of the prophecy in the Bible has come to pass.  There is
> very little yet to come to pass - but since looking back we can see how and
> why it happened just like the Bible said it would -- then what next doesn't
> need to be answered because we know that the next thing we will see is a
> Battle of Armageddon.  And without looking up the details, I believe Israel
> takes months to bury the dead that is like three feet deep.  And the bones
> that don't have flesh on them??
> ugh!
> Jesus is coming again for the people who believe and say with their mouths
> that they believe.  The Bible is true - and God is in complete charge.
> Watch and see what happens next?  Biblical - you bet.
>

> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 5:28 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <

>
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If Jews at large were to come to acknowledge that they were invented
> > rather than chosen by God, where would that leave fundamentalist
> > Christians?
> >http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=13569
> >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2852300.htm
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Khurram Chaudhry]

I agree that Israel is a sovereign state but the fact of the matter is that the Jewish state was created in the land of Palestine based on the premise that the bible is factually correct.

Once you take out the bible, the entire state falls.

i do not agree with the creation of an islamic state or a secular jewish state. I think that there were people who were living there who are palsetinian arabs and there was also jews and other nationalities. it is a rich mix. but the influx of illegal immigrants from russia, europe, america and africa is a crime against humanity. they all came based on the bible stating that this land belongs to the jews.

the bible is false and the land does not belong to the jews.

that does not mean that I do not want jews to live there. I think that jews have every right to live. but those who came from other countries are committing a crime by occupying a land that does not belong to them.

on the same note, I would also disagree with egyptians, syrians or koraean coming to the land and kicking out the local jews.

it is not about jews or arabs. I think they all belong there if they are from that area. BUT to claim a land and to allow jews from all over the world to come and take the land based on a book is a crime and israel does not have a right to exist.

ciao!

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[Max]

Khurram,

I do empathise with your stand. I agree whole heartedly that using the
contents of a religious text as the impramateur to usurp lands is
bullshit. But as I said earlier, as a sovereign state, Israel exists.
Unless one argues that a third war against the state of Israel is
successfully waged, we all have to recognise, that Israel is going no
where.

What has to happen now is international pressure to be put on Israel,
so as to get her to agree to terms for a withdrawal from the occupied
territories and to allow the creation of another state, Palestine.

Also, as a sovereign state, Israel can accept anyone it chooses as
immigrants and although the idea of European & Nth American Jews who
consider Israel their homeland because of a fucking story book is
anathema to modern non secular thinking, there's not much we (or
anyone) can do about it.

Galling as it is for the Arabs who've lived there for generations and
as unfair that it is; that's the situation.

The alternative is war or the continuation of Israel's policy of
illegal settlement and persisting with an unstated war of attrition &
persecution against the Arabs.

This is what negotiation is about. Both have to give something, both
lose something.

> > <atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>

[Khurram Chaudhry]

my argument is not to destroy a state but to destroy its justification

once that is done then all discussion on a solution to the problem will be more reflective of facts and common sense

ciao!

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[Max]

Maybe no shit storm in the middle east, just moving the shit storm to
WA, that's all.

But very unlikely anyway as the idea of Zionism was about a return to
the promised land, not to stick a few shacks up near Paraburdoo.

Max

Resident of Perth WA.

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.-Hide quoted text -

[Max]

I know Khurram, but that would simply be a phyric victory, if you
somehow managed that admission from the Israels. However in reality,
the establishment of a two state solution will be based on the facts
of the here & now, not some 'mea culpa' from people like Netanyahu. (I
mean could you imagine that in your wildest dreams) The Israelis, will
never & I mean never say that their nationhood was predicated on a
bullshit storybook.

That's like asking the Americans that their nation was based on
stealing the lands of the North American Indians.

Modern democratic societies (like the US & Australia) have
acknowledged what happened when Europeans settled, but sovereignty has
never been questioned (in practice) other than some public apology or
perhaps recognition of first peoples with land claims (e.g mineral
rights etc)

Cheers

> > > > <atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> > <atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>

[Khurram Chaudhry]

I still do not see the land of israel has holy land nor do I see any right of the jews to claim it as a homeland

you have to note that the current political talks are based on a US population accepting that part of the world to be a jewish homeland

if that be so then the crime continues and I will continue to write and speak against that crime...just as I continue to write and speak against religion

ciao!

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[grisha]

Why?

On Mar 25, 11:20 am, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was amazed that this is even an issue
>
> of course it is a myth and the land of israel.
>
> any sane atheist must know that israel has no right to exist as a nation
>

> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:28 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <

>
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If Jews at large were to come to acknowledge that they were invented
> > rather than chosen by God, where would that leave fundamentalist
> > Christians?
> >http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=13569
> >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2852300.htm
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[grisha]

On Mar 25, 3:07 pm, Musycks <midi...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> They made the wrong choice...
>
> The Balfour Declaration of British Parliament near the end of WWI
> dedicated the people of Britain to setting up a Jewish homeland.. they
> had narrowed it down to 3 possible locations...Palestine, North Africa
> (Ethiopia from memory) and...
> Western Australia! If only they'd dumped the buggers in the middle of
> the outback this shitstorm in the middle east would not have
> happened.... post WWII they settled on Palestine to give the Brits a
> buffer state between Russia and India.
> Politics screws us again.
> MR
>
> for what it's worth... I think Israel is a disgrace and an illegal
> state.

Why?

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.-Hide quoted text -

[Max]

Mar 26, 11:32 am, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I still do not see the land of israel has holy land

Neither do I?

nor do I see any right of the jews to claim it as a homeland

Neither do I. But Israel as a sovereign state, can accept who they
like in 'their' country, but that should not apply in the occupied
territories, which sadly is happening and must be repelled at every
opportunity. Don't worry about the right of Israel to exist or not,
worry about what's important. The people who are being persecuted is
what's important & the rights of Arabs who live there.

> you have to note that the current political talks are based on a US
> population accepting that part of the world to be a jewish homeland
> if that be so then the crime continues and I will continue to write and
> speak against that crime...just as I continue to write and speak against
> religion

By all means. The truth is always welcome as far as I'm concerned.

But the reality of international politics is on us I'm afraid. Is
Northern Ireland part of a broader sovereign state and as it is,
wouldn't one expect that the British should fuck off as really, it's
Ireland proper?

Do the British have sovereign rights over the Falklands. Does it
matter? They were prepared to send warships to defend this windswept
place, populated largely by sheep. But take one look at a map and you
can see that the islands are just off the coast of Argentina. The
Malvinas.

This is more about might, rather than right.

Same in the middle east.

> > > > > > <atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> > <atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
>
> > > > <atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>
> > <atheism-vs-christianity%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2525252Bu...@googlegroups.com>

[Dead Kennedy]

On 25 Mar, 18:20, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I was amazed that this is even an issue
>
> of course it is a myth and the land of israel.
>
> any sane atheist must know that israel has no right to exist as a nation

An argument that can be just as easily used against pakistan.

Could you show me a map showing a sovereign nation called pakistan
that existed say...2 years before israel?

>
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:28 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <

>
>
>
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If Jews at large were to come to acknowledge that they were invented
> > rather than chosen by God, where would that leave fundamentalist
> > Christians?
> >http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=13569
> >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2852300.htm
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to
> > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit­y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at

> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -

[Dead Kennedy]

On 25 Mar, 22:07, Musycks <midi...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> They made the wrong choice...
>
> The Balfour Declaration of British Parliament near the end of WWI
> dedicated the people of Britain to setting up a Jewish homeland.. they
> had narrowed it down to 3 possible locations...Palestine, North Africa
> (Ethiopia from memory) and...
> Western Australia! If only they'd dumped the buggers in the middle of
> the outback this shitstorm in the middle east would not have
> happened.... post WWII they settled on Palestine to give the Brits a
> buffer state between Russia and India.

How the fuck is Palastine a "a

> buffer state between Russia and India."

Are you confusing it with Pakistan?

> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[TLC]

Khurram,

I agree with you, but I must also point out what Max is saying is true
and we can't turn back the clocks. Unfortunately, Israel as a state
is a fait accompli, of which many in the West, past and present,
should be ashamed of in aiding its creation and encouraging it to
become what it presently is as a state. An over grown, religiously
deluded, self-rightious, undemocratic, externally dependent, bullying
theocracy.

When all that a state can exist on is having a unique religious
identity as a its raison d'etre, (on which many of its own people
can't agree to what extent), then its got problems and I sometimes
think Israel is more likely to implode than explode!

[Drafterman]

On Mar 25, 6:13 pm, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> yes
> you may want to stop claiming your right over a land based on the bible
>
> that might be a good start to obtain the right to exist.

Hm. You seem to have misundstood what I am asking for.

I am asking what is necessary. This requires positive attributes. You
have provided a negative attribute, that is, what the "right to exist
as a nation" can't be based on. I am looking for what it is based on.
And please, be as complete and comprehensive as you can. A single
point does not outline make.

>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Mar 25, 2:20 pm, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > I was amazed that this is even an issue
>
> > > of course it is a myth and the land of israel.
>
> > > any sane atheist must know that israel has no right to exist as a nation
>
> > Could you please outline, with rationale, what is necessary to obtain
> > the "right to exist as a nation"?
>
> > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:28 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <
>
> > > ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > If Jews at large were to come to acknowledge that they were invented
> > > > rather than chosen by God, where would that leave fundamentalist
> > > > Christians?
> > > >http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=13569
> > > >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2852300.htm
>
> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups
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[thea]

On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 7:20 PM, Max <ass...@pcfin.net> wrote:

thea, for goodness sake, stop using the bible as the justification for
any action.

It's simply daft of you to do so.

Perhaps, I should raise Mao's little red book of quotations or Hitlers
Mein Kampf to justify my actions.

The Bible, Maos quotations & Mein Kampf were all written by men.

 

 

The Bible is God's word to us and if we learn to *Rightly Divide* it and know which dispensation we are living in it becomes the most beautiful Book every to come down to us.  4,000 years of Jewish/Israel History then 2,000 years of God's Grace to us as Gentiles with 1,000 year reign of Jesus ruling from Jerusalem in prophecy in Revelations -- the 7,000 years of human kinds existance on this earth before a new heaven and new earth is made.

I wish to be in the new universe that is on the horizon at this point in time.  I will believe the Bible. 

God made the way for all of mankind to be able to go to the new heavens and new earth - which will never be destroyed by Satan.  Satan will be in the black hole forever.  I don't wish to join Satan -- I'm going to be where my Heavenly Father abides.

 

 

 

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[TLC]

thea,

If you really believe that there has been, "4,000 years of Jewish/
Israel History", will you please prove it? Put up or shut up!

Why don't you read some real history and stop believing in religious
mythology?

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[flying gorilla]

Israel has just as much of a right to exist as the United States does.
Or any other imperial colony-turned-country which displaced indigenous
peoples, for that matter. Walt is right in this regard.

On Mar 25, 2:20 pm, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I was amazed that this is even an issue
>
> of course it is a myth and the land of israel.
>
> any sane atheist must know that israel has no right to exist as a nation
>

> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:28 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <

>
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If Jews at large were to come to acknowledge that they were invented
> > rather than chosen by God, where would that leave fundamentalist
> > Christians?
> >http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=13569
> >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2852300.htm
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
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[flying gorilla]

what about people who have had their tongues removed or have some
other oral deformity that makes it impossible to say with their mouths
that they believe? what about feral children who will never be able to
learn to speak, or read, or in any way understand that the only way
for their souls to be saved is to believe in some ancient hippie? I
suppose eternal damnation is in order for these hapless people.

Other people claim that the bible means something other than what you
say it does. How do you know you are right?

On Mar 25, 6:44 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> God chose Abraham, Isaac and Israel to bring His plan of redemption to all
> of mankind.  God did it, God will keep Israel and Jerusalem will be the
> place where Jesus sets up His Kingdom on Earth as stated in Revelation.   It
> is funny that in looking at prophecy and then looking at what has happened
> in the past.  All of the prophecy in the Bible has come to pass.  There is
> very little yet to come to pass - but since looking back we can see how and
> why it happened just like the Bible said it would -- then what next doesn't
> need to be answered because we know that the next thing we will see is a
> Battle of Armageddon.  And without looking up the details, I believe Israel
> takes months to bury the dead that is like three feet deep.  And the bones
> that don't have flesh on them??
> ugh!
> Jesus is coming again for the people who believe and say with their mouths
> that they believe.  The Bible is true - and God is in complete charge.
> Watch and see what happens next?  Biblical - you bet.
>

> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 5:28 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <

>
> ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > If Jews at large were to come to acknowledge that they were invented
> > rather than chosen by God, where would that leave fundamentalist
> > Christians?
> >http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=13569
> >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2852300.htm
>
> > --
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[flying gorilla]

How religious was the establishment of the current state of Israel?
While the bible may be used to justify Zionism to some degree, was it
not established mainly for political reasons? I also thought there was
actually a high percentage of atheists in Israel. I was under the
impression that Jewish ethnicity is far more important than the
religion over there.

> ...
>
> read more »

[Khurram Chaudhry]

yes but all that completely makes it illegal for all those jews around the world to come in and make a home there while the local residents (palestinians) are locked out.;

please do not give me this bullshit of israel having any right to exist without the bible to support the THEFT of land

I do not care if it is sovereign now. any humane atheist would call for the destruction of israel and construction of a viable and correct state that kicks out all these jews from russia, europe, america and africa

ciao!

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[Trance Gemini]

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 12:53 PM, Khurram Chaudhry <khurr...@gmail.com> wrote:

yes but all that completely makes it illegal for all those jews around the world to come in and make a home there while the local residents (palestinians) are locked out.;

please do not give me this bullshit of israel having any right to exist without the bible to support the THEFT of land

I do not care if it is sovereign now. any humane atheist would call for the

destruction of israel and construction of a viable and correct state that kicks out all these jews from russia, europe, america and africa

This is nothing more than another shameless and despicable variation of the "push the jews into the sea" position.

As long as extremists like this continue to advocate the refusal to negotiate reasonable solutions in the ME, there will never be a resolution to the crisis there and it's the Palestinians who are the one's who will suffer the most and pay the biggest price. The very people these extremists claim to be supporting.

There is nothing unreasonable about the position that Max has taken and it's one I advocate as well.

It's the only one that has a hope of ending the ME crisis and bringing peace to the region.

And *that* is the position that any humane atheist will take.

Not one which continues the crisis and advocates "driving the jews into the sea". 

--
"Love is friendship on fire" --Anonymous

"Faith may not move mountains, but you should see what it does to skyscrapers" --Panama Floyd, aa#2015

[Khurram Chaudhry]

who said anything about pushing jews out

I think all those local people who live in palestine are rightful citizens

yes I do believe in deporting those illegal immigrants from syria, egypt, lebanon, russia, europe, america and africa

i am an atheist. why should I think any different?

--

[Trance Gemini]

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 1:10 PM, Khurram Chaudhry <khurr...@gmail.com> wrote:

who said anything about pushing jews out

Do you *ever* read what you write?

Khurram said:
"I do not care if it is sovereign now. any humane atheist would call for the

destruction of israel and construction of a viable and correct state that kicks out all these jews from russia, europe, america and africa"

--

[Khurram Chaudhry]

i read AND LIVE what I write

but any humane atheist should reject ISRAEL

Ciao

--

[thea]

From Adam to Abraham was I believe around 2,000 years.  From Abraham to Jesus is around 2,000 years and this is history.  The genealogies of people who lived during the Biblical times.

God in His Mercy made sure we would understand that Adam to Jesus is important in having a Living Sacrifice for our sins.

2,000 years since Pentecost or thereabouts.

and 1,000 years of Jesus' Kingdom on earth from Jerusalem in Revelation prophecy.

That the people of the Bible actually existed - go study the Archeological Discoveries of the Bible.  A nice place to start would be called *The New Archeological Discoveries* by Camden M. Cobern published in 1917 and covers the discovers from the 1800's.

One of the first things you learn is that *Greek was in Egypt a language commonly used by the middle and lower classes.  This is where we learn the correct way to interpret the New Testament - the papyri will teach us their proper uses (languages), and not the elegant Attic prose of Plato or Isocrates.*

So it really all depends on how Educated you are!!  And to be so anti-Bible means that you probably have never read it.  And, the Koran says you are to know the Bible.

It always amazes me that because you haven't read it, you don't realize that the Land that Israel now occupies was given to Israel -- but what was given to Ishmael was *And as to Ishmael, I have heard thee, behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall be begat, and I will make him a great nation.

*But my covenant will I establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear unto thee at this set time in the next year.* -- Genesis 17:20-21

And there is nothing about the other six men children that Abraham had with his second wife.

Interesting stuff this -- by the way do you know the names of the 12 tribes that Ishmael had?

 

 

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[Khurram Chaudhry]

lies from the bible cannot be used in an argument

ciao!

[thea]

Well then get your nose out of the Koran, or any other so-called religion.  Because if you cannot or have not read the Bible to the point where you see that everything else pales in comparison - you are not very educated.

[Khurram Chaudhry]

i see no need for the koran to base the argument that christian palestinians have a right to live in undivided palestine without an israel

[Musycks]

might like to read some history Khurram... start with pulitzer winner
Barbara Tuchman's 'Bible and the Sword'.
Palestine and it's regions are between the Eastern Med trade routes
and access to India via the Suez. Just to the North is where the
Russians access the Black Sea ports. This is all post WWII geo-
political power play. Max is right... it's all about might.
MR

and at least in Paraburdoo there'd be no Arabs to feel displaced?
there's plenty of room out there... remember the line in Gallipoli
'they're welcome to it'!

On Mar 26, 10:08 am, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> such crazy and ignorant fucks!
> did someone actually say that "palestine" was created to make a buffer
> between india and russia,
>
> wow...I thought sarah palin was a disaster but this is laughable!
>
> palestine is no where near india or russia!
>
> and also, please not that israel has no right to exist for the atheist.
>
> ..and the atheist would probably not support the existence of pakistan
> either.
>
> but I fail to see how the inviability of pakistan can determine if israel
> has the right to exist
>
> this is typical zionist pig mentality.
>
> ciao!
>
>
>
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:55 PM, Walt <wka...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> > On Mar 25, 6:07 pm, Musycks <midi...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> > > They made the wrong choice...
>
> > > The Balfour Declaration of British Parliament near the end of WWI
> > > dedicated the people of Britain to setting up a Jewish homeland.. they
> > > had narrowed it down to 3 possible locations...Palestine, North Africa
> > > (Ethiopia from memory) and...
> > > Western Australia! If only they'd dumped the buggers in the middle of
> > > the outback this shitstorm in the middle east would not have
> > > happened.... post WWII they settled on Palestine to give the Brits a
> > > buffer state between Russia and India.

> > > Politics screws us again.
> > > MR
>
> > > for what it's worth... I think Israel is a disgrace and an illegal
> > > state.
>

> > The club is a very big one.

>
> > > On Mar 26, 6:26 am, Walt <wka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>

> > > > On Mar 25, 2:20 pm, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > I was amazed that this is even an issue
>
> > > > > of course it is a myth and the land of israel.
>
> > > > > any sane atheist must know that israel has no right to exist as a
> > nation
>

> > > > If you look back far enough, every country owes it's existence to the
> > > > violent conquest of the land it occupies.  In Israel's case, the
> > > > violent conquest is just more recent than most.  The Muslim country of
> > > > Pakistan only exists because an illegitimate colonial power created
> > > > it.  But you don't hear many Muslims demanding that Pakistan be
> > > > reunified with India.  Even though Pakistan is a failed state which
> > > > makes its own populace miserable as well as exporting senseless
> > > > violence.
>

> > > > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:28 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <

>
> > > > > ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > If Jews at large were to come to acknowledge that they were
> > invented
> > > > > > rather than chosen by God, where would that leave fundamentalist
> > > > > > Christians?
> > > > > >http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=13569
> > > > > >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2852300.htm
>
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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[Khurram Chaudhry]

that is history

but to accept israel is tantamount to believing the bible

the state was created on the premise that the jews of the world should leave their countries and come over.

what you are refering to is not the same premise

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[Max]

Total bunkum! Fairy stories! Poor deluded automaton that you are.

> > <atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>

[Max]

I would have thought that religion had everything to do with the site
of where Israel now is. Why wasn't it, Zimbabwe, or Nuigini, or Sth
Georgia or Nova Scotia perhaps? You know the deal, chosen people, Holy
lands blah blah.

I don't disagree that the Brits had what seemed to be a legacy problem
with the 'Palestine Mandate' after the they squeezed off from the
Ottomans post WW1.

and the mandate was thus:

"Whereas the Principal Allied Powers have also agreed that the
Mandatory should be responsible for putting into effect the
declaration originally made on November 2nd, 1917, by the Government
of His Britannic Majesty, and adopted by the said Powers, in favour of
the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish
people, it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which
might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish
communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed
by Jews in any other country." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

Pity about the the non jewish communities and how they're terated now
(plus the occupied territories since) eh and pity about the lack of
self determination too.

The Jewish ethnicity & religion thing has been discussed here quite a
bit recently (particularly the notion of an atheist Jew), and there
are heaps of opinions. Pretty interesting subject if you ask me.

Cheers FG

> ...
>
> read more »

[Musycks]

Dead K... you obviously don't know much about neo-colonial areas of
influence and how it worked, specifically in a pre Suez Crisis world,
when the UK was a flagging super power and the cold war was getting
hotter. Try some research and get back to me.

oddly enough I know where Pakistan is and why it was established.
MR

> > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.-Hidequoted text -

[Musycks]

Khurram... it's obviously history you stuggle to understand given your
response as to why Israel was established?

and their current defence minister has defended the new illegal
settlements on the west bank saying' he was honoured to be carrying on
the work of the creator of the universe'!
It's an apartheid state and it really needs it's own Nelson Mandella.
MR

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[Khurram Chaudhry]

well that is a separate discussion. my point is that if you are an atheist you cannot accept that the land belongs to the jews alone. there is no god who gave it to them.

i agree that the jews came and conquered and took the land from the palestinians.

but i just want that to made clear so in discussing the middle east situation no one is being fooled with the lies that israel has a right to exist.

it does not have a right to exist.

by the same token if arab armies took over the land and took the jews out and established an arab state then there would be an arab state.

but neither the jewish state or the arab state has a right to exist. the state and its boundaries have been fought over and the state was established by using the colonial arrogance and religious lies - like most other countries.

so let's forget the rhetoric and discuss israel using facts instead of fables.

when that is done then all rational and logical processes amongst atheists lead us to accept one palestinian state where jews are also allowed to live if they are local jews.

ciao!

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[grisha]

What atheism has to do with that?

On Mar 26, 10:10 am, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> who said anything about pushing jews out
>
> I think all those local people who live in palestine are rightful citizens
>
> yes I do believe in deporting those illegal immigrants from syria, egypt,
> lebanon, russia, europe, america and africa
>
> i am an atheist. why should I think any different?
>

> On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 10:07 AM, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com>wrote:

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Khurram Chaudhry]

atheism rejects scripture and god and therefore the claim of the jews to israel is a lie

ciao

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[grisha]

Israel was created as a safe (Dah!) place, where Jews MIGHT go. The
choice of locality was rather unfortunate and biblical tales was one
(but just one) of the number of reasons to select the place. Zionism
was at least partly secular movement with the emphasis on escaping
oppression and mortal danger to Jews in Eastern Europe and later in
Nazi Germany. Refusal of US to accept Jews refugees from Nazi Germany
just helped that.

It could be much cheaper for everybody and beneficial, if USA just
resettled European Jews withing its territories in 1930s and 1940s,
but train left that station long ago. Israel exists and will exist
unless her citizens are murdered.

The current impasse has two main reason.

1. Religious hatred toward Israel and Jews from their neighbors.
2. Attempts by religious nuts in Israel to fulfill ancient prophecies
by expending settlements. As all religious nuts they think (if
"think" is applicable to them) that god is on their side and somehow
will help them. It probably does not increase hatred (the first
reason) too much - it is high enough, but creates additional obstacles
to any hope for peace.

I have relatives in Israel, who confirm that majority is still
secular, but parliamentary system gives too much influence to
religious minority.

I left out some obvious economic sources of conflicts over there, for
example water, but it would be the source of conflicts even if Israel
did not exist. Actually considering that a birth rate among Arabs is
much higher, those problems would be much more serious.

On Mar 26, 5:12 pm, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> that is history
> but to accept israel is tantamount to believing the bible
> the state was created on the premise that the jews of the world should leave
> their countries and come over.
>
> what you are refering to is not the same premise
>

> > > > > > > > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
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[Khurram Chaudhry]

i am sure that the society and government are secular

so is zionism partly

but the fundamental theory is based on being chosen ones and having exclusive rights over a piece of land

jews maybe atheist but some of them do tend to take the bible as book of historical facts ....and it is that attitude that is the basis of israel

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[grisha]

Some of them tend, but why do you think that tendencies of some
invalidate the state of Israel.

> ....and it is that attitude that is the basis of israel
>

Sorry, I did not get the last sentence.

On Mar 26, 10:42 pm, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i am sure that the society and government are secular
> so is zionism partly
> but the fundamental theory is based on being chosen ones and having
> exclusive rights over a piece of land
>
> jews maybe atheist but some of them do tend to take the bible as book of

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[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Mar 26, 6:19 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> From Adam to Abraham was I believe around 2,000 years.  From Abraham to
> Jesus is around 2,000 years and this is history.

According to which historians? Is the dating of the Mahabharata war to
3102 BC history too?

>  The genealogies of people
> who lived during the Biblical times.
> God in His Mercy made sure we would understand that Adam to Jesus is
> important in having a Living Sacrifice for our sins.

He didn't make sure that the audience listening to the parable of the
good Samaritan would understand it. Did God have no mercy when this
parable was told?

> That the people of the Bible actually existed - go study the Archeological
> Discoveries of the Bible.

Have archaeologists discovered that Adam, Eve and Methuselah existed?

> One of the first things you learn is that *Greek was in Egypt a language
> commonly used by the middle and lower classes.

Indeed? Then, how did Coptic survive till recently?

> So it really all depends on how Educated you are!!  And to be so anti-Bible
> means that you probably have never read it.

> It always amazes me that because you haven't read it, you don't realize that
> the Land that Israel now occupies was given to Israel

It is amazing that you because you haven't read Islamic literature,
you don't realize that Jews and Christians are apes and pigs:->

<<Although in the Koran, transformation into apes and pigs is
connected only with Jews, Koranic commentary links transformation into
apes and pigs with Christians as well.>>
http://www.memri.org/report/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/754.htm

[Khurram Chaudhry]

there is no basis for the occupation of palestine without the zionist belief in the bible

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[Trance Gemini]

On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 8:12 PM, Khurram Chaudhry <khurr...@gmail.com> wrote:

that is history

but to accept israel is tantamount to believing the bible

the state was created on the premise that the jews of the world should leave their countries and come over.

So, according to your logic, Pakistan has no right to exist either.


--

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 1:26 AM, grisha <gralm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Israel was created as a safe (Dah!) place, where Jews MIGHT go.  The
choice of locality was rather unfortunate and biblical tales was one
(but just one) of the number of reasons to select the place.  Zionism
was at least partly secular movement with the emphasis on escaping
oppression and mortal danger to Jews in Eastern Europe and later in
Nazi Germany.  Refusal of US to accept Jews refugees from Nazi Germany
just helped that.

Exactly.
 

It could be much cheaper for everybody and beneficial, if USA just
resettled European Jews withing its territories in 1930s and 1940s,
but train left that station long ago.  Israel exists and will exist
unless her citizens are murdered.

Exactly and some extremists are suggesting that Jews should be eliminated. Khurram's position is a variation of this extremist position.

The current impasse has two main reason.

1.  Religious hatred toward Israel and Jews from their neighbors.
2.  Attempts by religious nuts in Israel to fulfill ancient prophecies
by expending settlements.  As all religious nuts they think (if
"think" is applicable to them) that god is on their side and somehow
will help them.  It probably does not increase  hatred (the first
reason) too much - it is high enough, but creates additional obstacles
to any hope for peace.

I have relatives in Israel, who confirm that majority is still
secular, but parliamentary system gives too much influence to
religious minority.

This influence appears to be increasing given leaders like Netanyahu.

[TLC]

Trance,

Why did the Jewish religion need a save place, or country of their own
after the second world war? Nazi's were defeated and there were
no, hadn't been for a long time, cossacks riding though Jewish
villages in Eastern Europe.

The SAFE PLACE argument is childish.

On 27 Mar, 11:10, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[TLC]

Israel currently receives close to $3 billion in annual grants from
the US, not counting official loan guarantees and tax-deductible
contributions by private charities. Since its creation, Israel has
received more than $240 billion in grants from the US alone.

Israel is a colonial-settler state, founded on ethnic cleansing, a
state of the world's Jews, but not of its Arab population. It
continues to marginalise its Palestinians "citizens", to dispossess
the Palestinians in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and strangulate
them in Gaza.

Arabs had been talking peace since 1948 but the Israelis had never
listened. There are no real peace partners in Israel. They have
rejected all peace initiatives even the one that would have guaranteed
them full recognition, protection, and economical relationships.

The present leader of Israel Netanyahu says: ""The fundamental
condition for ending the conflict is the public, binding and sincere
Palestinian recognition of Israel as the national homeland of the
Jewish People" Netanyahu also claims that there is 3,500 years
connection between the Jewish People and the Land of Judea and Samaria
(West Bank of Palestine); the land of Jewish forefathers.

This precondition aims to annul Palestinians' rights to the land!

The second precondition, as Netanyahu named it, is demilitarization,
which "..is crucial to the existence of Israel". He stated that "Any
area in Palestinian hands has to be demilitarized, with solid security
measures. Without this condition, there is a real fear that there will
be an armed Palestinian state which will become a terrorist base
against Israel". We have to notice here that he did not mention a
Palestinian state but "area in Palestinian hands".

Netanyahu is not recognizing the two-state solution!

The third precondition was solving "the Palestinian refugee problem
outside of the borders of the State of Israel". Netanyahu considered
the internationally recognized Palestinian right of return to their
homeland as contradictory to the continued existence of Israel as a
Jewish state. He considered the Palestinian refugee problem a
humanitarian problem and called for international investment to solve
it. "I believe that with good will and international investment we can
solve this humanitarian problem once and for all". Netanyahu denied
the responsibility of the Israeli occupation in creating the
Palestinian refugee problem.

This is an occupation not a humanitarian problem. Netanyahu wants the
international community to take care of this problem!

The fourth precondition was the territorial issues that "… will be
discussed in a permanent agreement". Netanyahu tried here to appease
Obama's settlement freeze demand when he stated that "we have no
intention to build new settlements". Yet, at the same time, he needed
to assure his pro-settlement governmental coalitional parties, such as
the extremist Israel Beituna, that he would not freeze settlements. So
he stated that "settlers are not enemies of peace. They are our
brothers and sisters".

Netanyahu also declared that "the right to establish our sovereign
state here, in the Land of Israel, arises from one simple fact: Eretz
Israel is the birthplace of the Jewish People …where the People of
Israel created the Book of Books, and gave it to the world".

On 27 Mar, 11:10, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 8:56 AM, TLC <tlc.t...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Trance,

Why did the Jewish religion need a save place, or country of their own
after the second world war?     Nazi's were defeated and there were
no, hadn't been for a long time, cossacks riding though Jewish
villages in Eastern Europe.

The SAFE PLACE argument is childish.

I don't agree TLC. There was still a lot of racism in Europe against the Jews as there was in North America.

And let's not forget the history of persecution of the Jews.

This was the purpose of the creation of a homeland.

I don't agree with how it played out either however that's old news now.

Israel exists and the two state solution in line with International Law is the best solution.
 

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[Trance Gemini]

I know Netanyahu doesn't recognize the two state solution.

He's a Biblical extremist who supports the concept of Ersatz Israel.

No reasonable solution can be negotiated while he leads Israel anymore than a reasonable solution can be negotiated while Hamas leads the Palestinians.

Welcome to WWIII.

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[TLC]

Trance,

The SAFE PLACE argument is childish and there isn't "still a lot of
racism in Europe against the Jews".

By the way, Palestine, later re-named Israel, was not given to the
Jews. One of the main reasons the UK let the Jews have it was USA
political pressure and the other was the Jews were killing UK
servicemen and civilians.

On Mar 27, 1:44 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit­y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
>
> --
> "Love is friendship on fire" --Anonymous
>
> "Faith may not move mountains, but you should see what it does to

> skyscrapers" --Panama Floyd, aa#2015- Hide quoted text -

[Remzi]

Wait:

On Mar 25, 7:49 pm, thea <thea.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> <snip> (The Great Snatch, or Rapture of the Church has already taken
> place.)
> So the people on earth are all non-believers who were left behind when the
> Rapture took place.

Are you saying you are a non-believer or not on earth?

[Khurram Chaudhry]

Pakistan makes no such claim from the Bible or the Quran. Pakistan is based on the concept of Confederation where every state (or province) had the right to secede from the union. Those with a Muslim majority voted to form a union.

REMEMBER, Pakistan was created before India. Before that there were many princely states and territories ruled by the British. The British conquered these individual country-like entities and the region of India was in no way ever a country until the DAY AFTER PAKISTAN WAS CREATED!

There is no allusion to a verse in the Quran or Ahadith when calling for the creation of Pakistan. Pakistan was carved and a new state was created where none existed by that name.

 israel was based on a FABLE that the homeland of the Jews IS Israel which was given to the jews before some thousands of years ago. that did not happen. it was a lie.

The claim of Israel is invalid. 

Ciao!

--

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:35 AM, TLC <tlc.t...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Trance,

The SAFE PLACE argument is childish and there isn't "still a lot of
racism in Europe against the Jews".

When Israel was created there was. That was my point.

Of course, there isn't now but Israel exists so it's redundant.
 

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[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Khurram Chaudhry <khurr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Pakistan makes no such claim from the Bible or the Quran.

Pakistan is a theocracy and was founded on the grounds of being Muslim and wanting a Muslim state.

That is no different.

Give Pakistan back to India asshole.

[Khurram Chaudhry]

no

pakistan became a theocracy with the help of CIA dollars.

but pakistan was created by Jinnah, a ballroom dancing, pork eating and wine drinking aristocratic lawyer who knew only how to speak English.

ciao!@

--

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 2:42 PM, Khurram Chaudhry <khurr...@gmail.com> wrote:

no

pakistan became a theocracy with the help of CIA dollars.

but pakistan was created by Jinnah, a ballroom dancing, pork eating and wine drinking aristocratic lawyer who knew only how to speak English.

Who wanted a separate country on the grounds that the majority was MUSLIM which is a religion last time I looked.

Therefore Pakistan was set up on religious grounds and according to your logic has no right to exist.

Or do you just have a different standard for Muslims and a different standard for Jews?


 

ciao!@

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:29 AM, Trance Gemini <trance...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 11:52 AM, Khurram Chaudhry <khurr...@gmail.com> wrote:

Pakistan makes no such claim from the Bible or the Quran.

Pakistan is a theocracy and was founded on the grounds of being Muslim and wanting a Muslim state.

That is no different.

Give Pakistan back to India asshole.

--
"Love is friendship on fire" --Anonymous

"Faith may not move mountains, but you should see what it does to skyscrapers" --Panama Floyd, aa#2015

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[Khurram Chaudhry]

the people voted to become part of pakistan

ciao!

there was no allusion to a false bible story about a fairy tale land that they belonged to.....it was all about the bone hard truth...the vote to become a nation

ciao again!

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 3:03 PM, Khurram Chaudhry <khurr...@gmail.com> wrote:

the people voted to become part of pakistan

ciao!

there was no allusion to a false bible story about a fairy tale land that they belonged to.....it was all about the bone hard truth...the vote to become a nation

They wanted their own country because the majority was MUSLIM.

MUSLIM is a religion so people voted for it on RELIGIOUS grounds.

If Israel has no right to exist on those grounds neither does Pakistan.

Unless you hold Muslims to a different standard than you hold Jews.

[Khurram Chaudhry]

yes they did

that was the truth

their being muslim was a fact

but the land being given to the jews is a lie

ciao

--

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Khurram Chaudhry <khurr...@gmail.com> wrote:

yes they did

that was the truth

their being muslim was a fact

but the land being given to the jews is a lie

So it's a "fact" because they're Muslim and it's a "lie" because they're Jewish according to you.

Quite a racist double standard you've got there.

[Khurram Chaudhry]

their being a muslim may be a lie. but not their being a pakistani

israel is a lie because it is baed on the lie that the land belongs to the jews

pakistan belongs to the pakistanis. that they are muslim may be a lie...

muslims from all over the world are not allowed to come to pakistan and become citizens

ciao!

--

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 3:38 PM, Khurram Chaudhry <khurr...@gmail.com> wrote:

their being a muslim may be a lie. but not their being a pakistani

There was no such thing as "pakistan" until the Muslims fabricated it and demanded their own country.

It was India.
 

israel is a lie because it is baed on the lie that the land belongs to the jews

The same lie the Muslims told when they demanded their own country and fabricated "pakistan".
 

pakistan belongs to the pakistanis. that they are muslim may be a lie...

Irrelevant. They demanded their own country on the grounds that they were Muslim. Muslim is a religion.

According to your logic Pakistan has no right to exist assuming you want to be consistent and not a racist.

[Khurram Chaudhry]

exactly

so there is no allusion to a previous state promised by god

pakistan is a new state and does not depend on the bible or quran for statehood

ciao!

--

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 5:43 PM, Khurram Chaudhry <khurr...@gmail.com> wrote:

exactly

so there is no allusion to a previous state promised by god

pakistan is a new state and does not depend on the bible or quran for statehood

Well you've obviously "forgotten" what you said previously (no surprise there):

Khurram said:
"their being a muslim may be a lie. but not their being a pakistani"

Trance said:
"There was no such thing as "pakistan" until the Muslims fabricated it and demanded their own country. It was India."

And they were Indians not "pakistanis".

They fabricated "pakistan" on the religious grounds that they wanted a Muslim country and there was a majority of Muslims living in that region.

So, *after* getting their way, they created a blood bath of monumental proportions in order to drive everyone out of the country who *wasn't* Muslim and then they created their little theocracy.

The entire thing was religious from start to finish.

Therefore according to your logic Pakistan has no right to exist.

Unless of course you're going to be inconsistent in your logic and a racist.

[grisha]

TLC:

Imaging yourself as a survived Jew immediately after WWII. Six
million people were killed for belonging to the group you are
identified with.

Please note that it was not necessarily religion identification.
Overwhelming majority of Jews in the former Soviet Union knew very
little about Judaism and did not practice any. They were viewed as
Jews by Soviet government and by Nazi because of their ancestry. In
the rest of the Europe Nazi did not limit elimination of Jews only to
religion kind. Any kind of association was good enough for Auschwitz
or Buchenwald.

In Germany itself people who identified themselves as German with
Jewish ancestry (something similar to Irish-American or Italian-
American) were expelled at best case or exterminated at worst with
little protestation and lot of cooperation from the rest of
population.

While some of the people in Nazi occupied Europe show heroism to hide
and protect Jews, majority has shown indifference (possibly
understandable in an atmosphere of Nazi terror) or collaborated with
Nazi in killing. The sad example of later was Poland were Jewish
population was quite large before WWII and quite little after.

Economic misery of broken to pieces Europe did not help
reconciliation. People were searching for somebody to blame for their
misery and often turned to the usual suspects. Antisemitism flared up
again in many place.

In the Soviet Union habitual antisemitism was reinforced by the
government and organized action against Jews started its escalation.
You may read about "Doctors trial" for example. According to
historian only Stalin death in 1953 preventing mass exile and murder
of majority of Soviet Jews. It was estimated (if went as planned) to
be much larger in scale and much cruel than traditional pogroms by
cossacks.

Now you can evaluate how childish it was.

Grisha

[Khurram Chaudhry]

the muslims wanted a new state.

they did not bring forth a claim that the land was there's 

they voted and each province/state was allowed to decide

i fail to see who russians and europeans can vote about where palestine will go

punjabis voted for what will happen to punjab

sindhis voted for what will happen to sindh

baluchis voted for what will happen to baluchistan

pashtuns voted for what will happed to NWF province

kashmiris were not allowed to vote and were occupied by india

in israel, jews from all over the world laid claim to land they did not live in

in pakistan people voted for the destiny of their own land and invited muslims in the rest of india to migrate to those provinces/states

israel does not have a right to exist

EVEN if pakistan had any right or not.

the two are not related 

EVEN THOUGH I have proven that Pakistan is not the same as Israel.

MUSLIMS from all over the world do not get citizenship for being muslims. only the people of india were the ones who ruled their desitiny based on REAL LIVE people who were alive at the time of the decision.

Israel claims the land due to a history that is false

ciao!

[ynot]

On Mar 27, 11:43 pm, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> exactly
> so there is no allusion to a previous state promised by god
> pakistan is a new state and does not depend on the bible or quran for
> statehood
>

You wrong; Pakistan depends on the quran. Because of the quran,
Pakistan exists. No quran, no Pakistan. You have to consider that
islam was eatablished in that part of the world by muslims (mostly
arabs) after they conquered the area by force, sometime in the midle
of the first millenium. So islam should not have any rights to that
area. Pakistan is occupying an indian (indu)area. Regarding Palestine,
I also support one country (Palerael or Isratina) where all the
citizens vote for one only government. In South Africa, the apartheid
regime tried also to carve the country in small states, but it could
never work economically. The solution: the current "melting pot" of
South Africa; the best and only way. Hope the Israelis come here to
learn something.

Regards,
Tony

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 7:20 PM, Khurram Chaudhry <khurr...@gmail.com> wrote:

the muslims wanted a new state.

they did not bring forth a claim that the land was there's 

they voted and each province/state was allowed to decide

i fail to see who russians and europeans can vote about where palestine will go

punjabis voted for what will happen to punjab

sindhis voted for what will happen to sindh

baluchis voted for what will happen to baluchistan

pashtuns voted for what will happed to NWF province

kashmiris were not allowed to vote and were occupied by india

And MUSLIMS voted for the phony creation of a MUSLIM state and called it "pakistan" in a region that has belonged to INDIA for thousands of years.

According to *your* logic Pakistan does not have the right to exist.

Assuming you want to be consistent in your logic and aren't applying it in a racist and discriminatory manner.

[Khurram Chaudhry]

first of all that still does not justify israel. israel cannot have a valid claim just because some muslims call for a state. 

and secondly the pakistanis claimed the destiny of their own land. they did not allude to a land in the quran as the quran does not mentiond pakistan being a part of any muslim empire

muslims made a claim to pakistan because of the LAW of BRITISH INDIA that allowed them to do so.

pakistan came into being based on a resolution made in a parliamentary assembly that used the legal framework to call for the creation of the state.

no quran involved. the people were were elected to their respective constituencies voted, they had been given this right by the people AND NOT BY THE QURAN

(by the way even islam is not based on the quran)

and islam was never established in the region nor is it established now.

muslims wanted to form a state when the british left

they did not claim a foreign land far away based on some religion

they used democratic processes to pass a resolution and call for each state or province to vote

none of the above democratic processes are part of the Quran

the Islamists were against the creation of Pakistan!

pakistan did not come into being as an islamic state. decades later it was added into the constitution that parliament shall pass no law that is abhorent to the "Quran and Sunnah". and that is all

when the CIA wanted the Soviets out (and in collusion with the Wahabists in Saudis) an when the wanted to make a buffer against the exporting of the Iranian revolution the created a Salafist militia and made Zia ul Haq all powerful (Zia overthrew the popularly elected Prime Minister) who passed the HUDOOD Ordinance that had "Islamic laws". This was done in the 80's. Pakistan was created in 1947.

the creation of the state was based NOT ON A MYTH about who the land belonged to BUT rather a POPULAR WILL of the MUSLIMS to form a nation.

If the JEWS in Palestine had called for a separate state, then that would be a similar issue. HOWEVER, if there was a vote, they would have lost. SO they kicked out the Palestinians and imported Jews from all around the worlld based on the BELIEF that these Jews were coming back to their land.

IT IS THIS belief that I reject and REJECT ISRAEL.

Pakistan made no claim over any other nation. They only laid claim to which political entity their respecitve states/provinces would belong to.

AND TECHNICALLY, PAKISTAN was CREATED BEFORE INDIA was (about an hour before!!) and so we just kicked the BRITS out based on a NATIONAL STRUGGLE and called our selves Pakistanis. There was no INDIA at the time we were created!

Gosh you all are such ignoramuses!

ciao

[Khurram Chaudhry]

the land belonged to them for 1000's of years as separate nations.

there was no country called india! there was the state of kashmir, the state of bahawpur, the state of hyderabad, the junagadh state, punjab, etc etc. they were unified under the british rule but the british recognized the separate nations.

pakistanis did not occupy any land the pakistanis were living there for thousands of years. (from 5000 BCE). they democratically voted to unite as one country after the british left. they decided to not live as separaate nations but rather form a union.

india was not in existence at the time. pakistan came into being on aug 14. india came about in aug 15.

after the creation of india, india dissolved many princley states and independent territories and formed the union of india AFTER PAKISTAN WAS CREATED

ciao, you ignoramus bitch!

--

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 7:54 PM, Khurram Chaudhry <khurr...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snipped>
 

and secondly the pakistanis claimed the destiny of their own land.

It wasn't "pakistan" and "pakistanis" had no claim to anything.

It was India.
 

they did not allude to a land in the quran as the quran does not mentiond pakistan being a part of any muslim empire

Irrelevant. They were Muslim and wanted a Muslim land. Muslims are a religious group.

The drove everyone who was not Muslim away.

It was a religious motivated issue from the start.

According to your logic, assuming you care about consistency and not being a racist Pakistan has no right to exist.

[Trance Gemini]

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 8:00 PM, Khurram Chaudhry <khurr...@gmail.com> wrote:

the land belonged to them for 1000's of years as separate nations.

The were all Rajas of Hindustan.
 

there was no country called india! there was the state of kashmir, the state of bahawpur, the state of hyderabad, the junagadh state, punjab, etc etc. they were unified under the british rule but the british recognized the separate nations.

pakistanis did not occupy any land the pakistanis were living there for thousands of years. (from 5000 BCE). they democratically voted to unite as one country after the british left. they decided to not live as separaate nations but rather form a union.

There was no such as "pakistan" or "pakistanis". The land was India and had always been India (Hindustan).

The Muslims demanded their own country for no other reason than they were Muslim (that's a religion and so it makes the reasons religious).

They massacred everyone who wasn't Muslim and who didn't manage to escape the bloodshed. The massacres were committed on religious grounds.

Since religion was the basis for the phony creation of a non-existent country called "pakistan" according to your logic Pakistan has no right to exist assuming you care about being consistent and not racist.

[Khurram Chaudhry]

you can be motivated by religion.

that does not make your claim invalid

it is called the VOTE

try it sometimes

your vote is a valid expression of what you want the state to do.

but to grab another voter's house and occupy it and deny him or her the vote because god spoke to you is invalid.

there were no pakistanis one day. and another day they were pakistanis

I fail to see how there is anything invalid about that if they are motivated by religion to vote and choose what to call themselves.

same thing with jews.

they are most welcome to use their religion to be motivated to form their own country in israel

BUT THEY WOULD LOSE THE VOTE TERRIBLY BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT THAT MANY VALID JEWISH VOTERS. 

I FAIL TO SEE HOW A RUSSIAN JEW OR A JEW IN BROOKLYN CAN VOTE FOR WHAT HAPPENS WITH JERUSALEM,

but a MUSLIM living in PUNJAB or SINDH or BALUCHISTS or NWFP or KASHMIR or BENGAL can vote and exercise his right and determine the destiny of his land.

ISRAEL IS INVALID AS IT USES A RELIGIOUS BELIEF TO LAY CLAIM OVER A LAND.

pakistanis used the power of the vote and SELF DETERMINATION to decide what they wanted to and what they felt their relgion was guiding them to do

perfectly valid to me

but ISRAEL is not a valid state. as an atheist I reject the right of so many of the Jews of the world to come to Palestine and deny the Palesinians their human rights

Israel has to be destroyed.

ciao!

 

--

[Khurram Chaudhry]

of course the massacre was committed on religious ground

the massacre is invalid and I reject it

but pakistan was created by a vote

there was no such united country called india or hindustan before the british came

OH BY THE WAY, BEFORE TEH BRITISH CAME THE SUB CONTINENT WAS RULED BY THE MUSLIMS!

such an ignorant bitch!

--

[Trance Gemini]

I love the hoops people jump through to justify the crimes committed by their religions while attacking other religions for committing crimes that are equally bad if not worse.

You haven't fooled me for a second Khurram.

On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 8:13 PM, Khurram Chaudhry <khurr...@gmail.com> wrote:

 

Israel has to be destroyed.

And here for the first time you are being honest.

You are a racist and an extremist.

[Khurram Chaudhry]

oh i think pakistan is guilty of a lot of crimes

i just reject the validity of israel as a state

I reject it

I fail to see your point regarding pakistan and what that has to do with israel

and I fail to see where I have defended the state of pakistan?

--

[Dead Kennedy]

On 27 Mar, 03:43, Musycks <midi...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> Dead K... you obviously don't know much about neo-colonial areas of
> influence and how it worked, specifically in a pre Suez Crisis world,
> when the UK was a flagging super power and the cold war was getting
> hotter. Try some research and get back to me.
>
> oddly enough I know where Pakistan is and why it was established.
> MR

tell ou what, why dont you suggest to our pakistani poster khurram,
that pakistan was "created as a buffer by britain", rather than than a
muslim state fought and struggled for against british opposition?

>
> On Mar 26, 8:01 pm, Dead Kennedy <dead.kenn...@live.co.uk> wrote:
>
> > On 25 Mar, 22:07, Musycks <midi...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
>
> > > They made the wrong choice...
>
> > > The Balfour Declaration of British Parliament near the end of WWI
> > > dedicated the people of Britain to setting up a Jewish homeland.. they
> > > had narrowed it down to 3 possible locations...Palestine, North Africa
> > > (Ethiopia from memory) and...
> > > Western Australia! If only they'd dumped the buggers in the middle of
> > > the outback this shitstorm in the middle east would not have
> > > happened.... post WWII they settled on Palestine to give the Brits a
> > > buffer state between Russia and India.
>
> > How the fuck is Palastine a "a
>
> > > buffer state between Russia and India."
>
> > Are you confusing it with Pakistan?
>
> > > Politics screws us again.
> > > MR
>
> > > for what it's worth... I think Israel is a disgrace and an illegal
> > > state.
>
> > > On Mar 26, 6:26 am, Walt <wka...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Mar 25, 2:20 pm, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > > I was amazed that this is even an issue
>
> > > > > of course it is a myth and the land of israel.
>
> > > > > any sane atheist must know that israel has no right to exist as a nation
>
> > > > If you look back far enough, every country owes it's existence to the
> > > > violent conquest of the land it occupies.  In Israel's case, the
> > > > violent conquest is just more recent than most.  The Muslim country of
> > > > Pakistan only exists because an illegitimate colonial power created
> > > > it.  But you don't hear many Muslims demanding that Pakistan be
> > > > reunified with India.  Even though Pakistan is a failed state which
> > > > makes its own populace miserable as well as exporting senseless
> > > > violence.
>
> > > > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:28 AM, ranjit_math...@yahoo.com <
>
> > > > > ranjit_math...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > > > > If Jews at large were to come to acknowledge that they were invented
> > > > > > rather than chosen by God, where would that leave fundamentalist
> > > > > > Christians?
> > > > > >http://www.antiwar.com/cook/?articleid=13569
> > > > > >http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2010/2852300.htm

>
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
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> > > > > > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> > > > > > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit­­­y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> > > > > > .
> > > > > > For more options, visit this group at

> > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.-Hidequotedtext -
>
> > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Dead Kennedy]

On 28 Mar, 01:00, Khurram Chaudhry <khurram...@gmail.com> wrote:
> the land belonged to them for 1000's of years as separate nations.
> there was no country called india! there was the state of kashmir, the state
> of bahawpur, the state of hyderabad, the junagadh state, punjab, etc etc.
> they were unified under the british rule but the british recognized the
> separate nations.
>
> pakistanis did not occupy any land the pakistanis were living there for
> thousands of years. (from 5000 BCE). they democratically voted to unite as
> one country after the british left. they decided to not live as separaate
> nations but rather form a union.
>
> india was not in existence at the time. pakistan came into being on aug 14.
> india came about in aug 15.
>
> after the creation of india, india dissolved many princley states and
> independent territories and formed the union of india AFTER PAKISTAN WAS
> CREATED
>
> ciao, you ignoramus bitch!

I was just enjoying trance whipping your illogiacal arse , then you
pushed the panic button with "bitch" so I'm jumping in.

So, If pakistan was the all loving, democratically created state can
you explain errrm bangladesh?

>
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com>wrote:

> > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianity%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

[Khurram Chaudhry]

excuse but I am from the bay area

thank you

To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.

[TLC]

Trance,

The SAFE PLACE argument is false. After WW.2 most in Europe felt
guilty and ashamed when the camps became public knowledge. That's
why Nazi's were hunted down, including camp guards, and many were
tried and executed, or imprisoned.

Not every where in Europe was like Catholic, Poland in 1946. Where
Catholic mobs, in many ways silently supported by their church, killed
as many as 1000 returning Polish Jews who had survived the war in the
Soviet Union or the camps.

But, this has nothing to do with the "SAFE PLACE argument".

The British had allowed Jewish immigration since they took "Palestine"
from the Ottoman's in World War I. But, after the Arab rioting in
1921, immigration was limited and would be allowed only to the extent
that it did not burden the economy and "fixing by the numbers and
interests of the present population" the future Jewish
immigration.

During World War I, the British sought Jewish support in the fight
against Germany. This and support for Zionism from Prime-Minister
Lloyd-George led to foreign minister, Lord Balfour making the Balfour
Declaration of 1917, stating that the British Government "view[ed]
with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the
Jewish people"...

"it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may
prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish
communities in Palestine".

On 27 Mar, 19:26, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 10:35 AM, TLC <tlc.tere...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Trance,
>
> > The SAFE PLACE argument is childish and there isn't "still a lot of
> > racism in Europe against the Jews".
>
> When Israel was created there was. That was my point.
>
> Of course, there isn't now but Israel exists so it's redundant.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > By the way, Palestine, later re-named Israel, was not given to the
> > Jews.   One of the main reasons the UK let the Jews have it was USA
> > political pressure and the other was the Jews were killing UK
> > servicemen and civilians.
>
> > On Mar 27, 1:44 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > > On Sat, Mar 27, 2010 at 8:56 AM, TLC <tlc.tere...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > Trance,
>
> > > > Why did the Jewish religion need a save place, or country of their own
> > > > after the second world war?     Nazi's were defeated and there were
> > > > no, hadn't been for a long time, cossacks riding though Jewish
> > > > villages in Eastern Europe.
>
> > > > The SAFE PLACE argument is childish.
>

> > > I don't agree TLC. There was still a lot of racism in Europe against the
> > > Jews as there was in North America.
>
> > > And let's not forget the history of persecution of the Jews.
>
> > > This was the purpose of the creation of a homeland.
>
> > > I don't agree with how it played out either however that's old news now.
>
> > > Israel exists and the two state solution in line with International Law
> > is
> > > the best solution.

> > > > > --
> > > > > "Love is friendship on fire" --Anonymous
>
> > > > > "Faith may not move mountains, but you should see what it does to
> > > > > skyscrapers" --Panama Floyd, aa#2015
>

> > > > --
> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> > Groups
> > > > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
> > > > To post to this group, send email to
> > > > atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > > atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com<atheism-vs-christianit­y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>

> > <atheism-vs-christianit­y%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<y%252Bunsubscribe@­googlegroups.com>

>
> > > > .
> > > > For more options, visit this group at
> > > >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.
>

> > > --
> > > "Love is friendship on fire" --Anonymous
>
> > > "Faith may not move mountains, but you should see what it does to

> > > skyscrapers" --Panama Floyd, aa#2015- Hide quoted text -

>
> > > - Show quoted text -
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
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> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

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> > .
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>

> --
> "Love is friendship on fire" --Anonymous
>
> "Faith may not move mountains, but you should see what it does to

> skyscrapers" --Panama Floyd, aa#2015- Hide quoted text -

[Musycks]

or you could just admit your ignorance on the subject?
MR

> > > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.-Hidequo...-

[TLC]

Britain's Parliament passed in July 1947 the Indian Independence Act,
ordering the demarcation of the dominions of India and Pakistan by
midnight of Aug. 14-15, 1947, and dividing within a single month the
assets of the world's largest empire, which had been integrated in
countless ways for more than a century. Racing the deadline, two
boundary commissions worked desperately to partition Punjab and Bengal
in such a way as to leave a majority of Muslims to the west of the
former's new boundary and to the east of the latter's, but as soon as
the new borders were known, no fewer than 10 million Hindus, Muslims,
and Sikhs fled from their homes on one side of the newly demarcated
borders to what they thought would be "shelter" on the other.

In the course of that tragic exodus of innocents, some 1 million
people were slaughtered in communal massacres that made all previous
conflicts of the sort known to recent history pale by comparison.
Sikhs, caught in the middle of Punjab's new "line," suffered the
highest percentage of casualties. Most Sikhs finally settled in
India's much-diminished border state of Punjab. Tara Singh later
asked, "The Muslims got their Pakistan, and the Hindus got their
Hindustan, but what did the Sikhs get?"

http://www.unigroup.com/PTIC/body_history.html

Pakistan. A good example, (or the saddest in history?) used by the
Muslims of the SAFE PLACE arguement.

The main reasons for Pakistan used by Muslim League under Quaid-
e-Azam leadership were being stated by different intellectuals
as freedom from foreign rule ,fear of Hindu dominance in united
India , establishment of Islamic system in the newly created
state ,and India muslims identity question in united India etc.

[Trance Gemini]

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 7:48 AM, TLC <tlc.t...@googlemail.com> wrote:

Trance,

The SAFE PLACE argument is false.  After WW.2 most in Europe felt
guilty and ashamed when the camps became public knowledge.   That's
why Nazi's were hunted down, including camp guards, and many were
tried and executed, or imprisoned.

Hi TLC

I'm not very familiar with the details of the history here.

All I can say is that Grisha's comments match my understanding of the political climate.

And your comments match what my left wing relatives used to say when they argued in support of the Palestinian cause.

Since you and Grisha both appear to be knowledgeable on the details which led up to this fairly complex situation I invite both of you to discuss it in depth and I'll just follow the discussion with interest and perhaps learn something from both of you.
 
That said, one of the reasons that I don't bother to either educate myself on the details of this history or discuss the ME situation from that perspective is my opinion that today in 2010 all of that history is redundant.

Israel exists as a state.

In order to come up with reasonable solutions to the current problem as it exists today we have to look at it from the perspective of what the situation is today.

And on this, I believe that the only reasonable solution is the two-state solution.

I, personally have no objection to a single state solution either (as presented by Tony) however given the extreme hostility and mistrust that exists between the Israelis and Palestinians, I don't see it as workable today.

So, where the two state solution is concerned,

1. Israel needs to be prevented from continuing their expansion with the Armed Settlers
2. Palestine needs to be prevented from engaging in their harassing terrorist acts
3. International Law and existing UN Resolutions need to be followed

And then there *may* be a hope for peace and healing of hostilities.

Something I believe that both the Israelis and Palestinians want irrespective of what their leadership wants or is doing (which is currently extremist on both sides and propping up extremism and extremist acts on both sides).

[Trance Gemini]

On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 9:07 AM, TLC <tlc.t...@googlemail.com> wrote:

<snipped>

Tara Singh later
asked, "The Muslims got their Pakistan, and the Hindus got their
Hindustan, but what did the Sikhs get?"

Bloodshed.

[ynot]

On Mar 28, 3:08 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi TLC

>
>
> I, personally have no objection to a single state solution either (as
> presented by Tony) however given the extreme hostility and mistrust that
> exists between the Israelis and Palestinians, I don't see it as workable
> today.
>

I know that it does not compare to what happens now in the ME, but
believe me Trance, there was "extreme hostility and mistrust" on both
sides of the conflict in South Africa before 1994. What happened here
was that two men, Nelson Mandela & F W de Klerk (the then state
president of South Africa representing the apartheid government) got
together, forgot their differences, look to the future and pulled up a
deal that amazed everyone, blacks and whites. They lead their people
and made them believe into accepting something that was unthinkable
and UNACCEPTABLE to both sides a couple of months before. Another case
of good leadership is Gorbachev when he dismantled the old Soviet
Union. Unfortunately, in the ME there is no such a thing as Mandela
and de Klerk; instead, they only have two gods to solve the problem.
This way, they will never get it right. If the ME people get rid of
the gods, a one country for all can be achieved.

Regards,
Tony

[grisha]

Tony:

SA did not have a very potent poison in the mix, religion. Besides, a
structure of conflict is much different.

Grisha