What happens when we die?

[Oodlemae]

Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
after death. We are presently in our home away from "Home". The veil
will depart from our minds and we will remember the Plan of Salvation
once more.
When we die we can't take our houses, BMW's or credit cards with us
(thank God.) We return home with our developed virtues or with our
spiritually malnourished states of mind.
I admit..I'm kinda hoping I can get a crispy creme donut after I
die...after I visit the relatives of course. I'm allergic to flour/
wheat and I haven't had a good donut for about a decade now...
When everyone else wants that up-grade, to live among the mansions of
Heaven etc..I just want Tennessee back. I think it's the most divine
place on earth.

Anyways, do most atheists believe everything just goes blank after
their last breath? Do we all just turn into pixie dust or something???
Seriously though...Where does their hopes and expectation lie?

I just can't find a place inside of me that can spiritually or
Emotionally digest the idea that "WE" are all really nothing and "WE
ALL" will turn back into a bleak, hopeless Nothingness state forever.
That sounds like a surreal definition of Hell to me. To never be able
to progress and grow in Wisdom, Knowledge and Light...Forever! To be
eternally doomed to be "Nothing" is a nightmare saga. Somehow my Heart
and soul seems to remember another story.
Their is a Knowing feeling inside of me that tells me it isn't so.

[Drafterman]

On Apr 13, 9:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> after death.

No, you don't. Your body stays in the coffin it was buried in.

> We are presently in our home away from "Home".

A place that doesn't exist can't be a "home"

> The veil
> will depart from our minds and we will remember the Plan of Salvation
> once more.

What veil?

> When we die we can't take our houses, BMW's or credit cards with us
> (thank God.)

Actually you can be buried with a great deal of things. Just consider
the pharaohs. Won't do you any good. You're dead.

> We return home with our developed virtues or with our
> spiritually malnourished states of mind.

When you die, you don't return anywhere.

> I admit..I'm kinda hoping I can get a crispy creme donut after I
> die...

And eat it with what mouth? And taste it with what tongue? And digest
it with what digestive system? All those will be in the ground, non-
functional and rotting away.

> after I visit the relatives of course.

Your motility will be greatly reduced once dead.

> I'm allergic to flour/
> wheat and I haven't had a good donut for about a decade now...

Good news! You will have no allergies when you are dead. Because you
will be dead.

> When everyone else wants that up-grade, to live among the mansions of
> Heaven etc..I just want Tennessee back. I think it's the most divine
> place on earth.

No place on Earth is divine.

>
> Anyways, do most atheists believe everything just goes blank after
> their last breath?

Not always. It can go blank before your last breath too.

> Do we all just turn into pixie dust or something???

You turn into a cadaver.

> Seriously though...Where does their hopes and expectation lie?

During my life.

>
> I just can't find a place inside of me that can spiritually or
> Emotionally digest the idea that "WE" are all really nothing and "WE
> ALL" will turn back into a bleak, hopeless Nothingness state forever.

You *are* something (a dynamic collection of subatomic particles
operating under the laws of physics) and you will remain that
something until the universe ends. It's just the configuration
necessary for you to perceive conscious existence will not last
indefinitely.

The factuality of that statement does not require your consent,
agreement, or understanding. Reality is not bound by what is
emotionally pleasant or conceivable to you.

> That sounds like a surreal definition of Hell to me.

Believing something is false just because it is unpleasant sounding is
foolish. There's also a term for it: denial.

> To never be able
> to progress and grow in Wisdom, Knowledge and Light...Forever!

You can progress in wisdom and knowledge, during your life. As far as
light. "progressing in light" is nonsensical.

> To be
> eternally doomed to be "Nothing" is a nightmare saga.

Good news: you aren't nothing. Bad news: reality contains unpleasant
facts. Ignoring them because they are unpleasant is stupid.

> Somehow my Heart
> and soul seems to remember another story.

Yeah, I remember a lot of fables, myths, tales, yarns, and other such
stories from my youth too. Part of growing up is recognizing that they
are fables, myths, tales, yarns and other such stories.

> Their is a Knowing feeling inside of me that tells me it isn't so.

It's a feeling, but it isn't "Knowing". You can't know a falsehood.

In regards to a more literal interpretation of your question:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/ask_the_doctor/decompositionafterdeath.shtml

[Bob T.]

On Apr 13, 6:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> after death. We are presently in our home away from "Home". The veil
> will depart from our minds and we will remember the Plan of Salvation
> once more.

You are quite mistaken, but if your fantasies help you get through
life, more power to you.

> When we die we can't take our houses, BMW's or credit cards with us
> (thank God.) We return home with our developed virtues or with our
> spiritually malnourished states of mind.
> I admit..I'm kinda hoping I can get a crispy creme donut after I
> die...after I visit the relatives of course. I'm allergic to flour/
> wheat and I haven't had a good donut for about a decade now...
> When everyone else wants that up-grade, to live among the mansions of
> Heaven etc..I just want Tennessee back. I think it's the most divine
> place on earth.
>
> Anyways, do most atheists believe everything just goes blank after
> their last breath? Do we all just turn into pixie dust or something???
> Seriously though...Where does their hopes and expectation lie?

We decompose: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decomposition

>
> I just can't find a place inside of me that can spiritually or
> Emotionally digest the idea that "WE" are all really nothing and "WE
> ALL" will turn back into a bleak, hopeless Nothingness state forever.
> That sounds like a surreal definition of Hell to me. To never be able
> to progress and grow in Wisdom, Knowledge and Light...Forever! To be
> eternally doomed to be "Nothing" is a nightmare saga. Somehow my Heart
> and soul seems to remember another story.
> Their is a Knowing feeling inside of me that tells me it isn't so.

I know that feeling! It's called wishful thinking, and humans are
prone to it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking

But rest easy - you won't be "eternally" doomed to anything. Like
every other living thing, you'll be alive for a while and then you'll
die. As long as you don't waste your life by devoting it to some sort
of wishful thinking, you'll be fine.

- Bob T.

[Drafterman]

Also consider our knowledge about this process is growing.
The notion that cells begin to die within minutes after losing oxygen
is being challenged:

http://www.newsweek.com/id/35045

[Neil Kelsey]

On Apr 13, 6:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> after death.

You only believe that. Saying you "understand" you have an afterlife
implies certainty. If you are certain, please provide the evidence
that it is true.

> We are presently in our home away from "Home". The veil
> will depart from our minds and we will remember the Plan of Salvation
> once more.

More unsupported beliefs and wishful thinking. I don't want to die
either, but I'm not going to make up elaborate fantasies as a
substitute for the truth. The only thing we know is that we will die.
That is the only truth.

> When we die we can't take our houses, BMW's or credit cards with us
> (thank God.)

Or our crucifixes or our Bible or our church clothes. Don't pretend
you're not materialistic.

>We return home with our developed virtues or with our
> spiritually malnourished states of mind.

More unsupported beliefs...

> I admit..I'm kinda hoping I can get a crispy creme donut after I
> die...

What's the difference between a crispy creme donut and a credit card?

> after I visit the relatives of course. I'm allergic to flour/
> wheat and I haven't had a good donut for about a decade now...
> When everyone else wants that up-grade, to live among the mansions of
> Heaven etc..

How do you know that is what everyone else wants?

>I just want Tennessee back. I think it's the most divine
> place on earth.

So you're just as materialistic as anyone else. It's fine to like
things, I don't know why so many people think what they like is
somehow superior to what other people happen to like. It's even
weirder when someone thinks they're superior because they brag about
liking humble things, like you do (as if the state of Tennessee is
somehow humble).

> Anyways, do most atheists believe everything just goes blank after
> their last breath?

All evidence points that way. You know, what with all the dead people
lying there doing nothing.

> Do we all just turn into pixie dust or something???

Ummm. Dirt is not pixie dust.

> Seriously though...Where does their hopes and expectation lie?

Reality doesn't care a bit about our hopes and expectations.

> I just can't find a place inside of me that can spiritually or
> Emotionally digest the idea that "WE" are all really nothing

"We" aren't nothing. We're a spectacular life form called homo
sapiens. We have evolved this marvellous brain that we get to take for
a bunch of rides around the sun. The odds of being alive, let alone a
member of a conscious life form, are achingly infintesimal. You have
won 5 billion Lottos. And you want to spend your precious time whining
and whimpering about not living forever? What a waste.

> and "WE
> ALL" will turn back into a bleak, hopeless Nothingness state forever.

Okay, think. If you cease to exist, if the electricity goes out, then
you won't feel anything, including bleakness or hopelessness.

> That sounds like a surreal definition of Hell to me.

I don't like it either. But I'll trade an eternity of not existing for
several decades of life.

> To never be able
> to progress and grow in Wisdom, Knowledge and Light...Forever!

Right. So make the best of what you've got. You've got a lot of
catching up to do in the wisdom and knowledge department, but it is
never too late. Step one, drop the delusions, the fear of death, and
most of all, the religion.

> To be
> eternally doomed to be "Nothing" is a nightmare saga.

Or you can kill yourself. Seems like a cowardly thing to do.

> Somehow my Heart
> and soul seems to remember another story.
> Their is a Knowing feeling inside of me that tells me it isn't so.

We call this "wishful thinking." God is a crutch for your fears.

Come on, straighten up, get brave, and make the best of the short time
you KNOW you have. That includes conceding the rights of others to do
the same, even if it involves them enjoying their credit cards.

[Skeptic]

On Apr 13, 6:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> after death.

``Understand?'' You really shouldn't insult the language this way.

What word shall you use for actual understanding, after you've misused
this one?

> When we die we can't take our houses, BMW's or credit cards with us
> (thank God.) We return home with our developed virtues or with our
> spiritually malnourished states of mind.

Developed virtues? What if my virtue is playing the violin? Or
painting?

> Anyways, do most atheists believe everything just goes blank after
> their last breath?

You'd have to conduct some kind of poll to find out, wouldn't you.
Remember, atheists aren't some unified group, just the set of people
who don't believe that there are gods.

> That sounds like a surreal definition of Hell to me. To never be able
> to progress and grow in Wisdom, Knowledge and Light...Forever!

That sounds precisely like the predicament that god is in. The
Christian god is never described as one who is progressing toward
greater wisdom.

To be
> eternally doomed to be "Nothing" is a nightmare saga.

Did you have nightmares before you were born? Was it bleak and
hopeless? Was it blank?

The world after you die is probably exactly the same like the one
before you were born. The half-bounded interval of time before your
life is similar to the one after.

> Their is a Knowing feeling inside of me that tells me it isn't so.

Knowing and feeling are different things. Oops!

[Max]

What were you before you were born?

When you die....it will be the same thing.

Fear of one's own mortality is obvious and understandable. Human
instinct is to stay alive as long as one can and as none of us are
immortal, we all must face the reality of our own death at some stage.

Religion, therefore was created (in part) to sate peoples fear of
their own mortality.

Religionists invented concepts like 'soul' because as humans, we know
that our bodies perish into nothingness, so 'something' must transport
the essence of our humanity to some other supernatural place, (which
the religionists also invented), called heaven.

These stories are designed to keep you compliant and subserviant to
canon law and the lay practices of other religious denominations,
through fear of contravention and reward (afterlife) if comliant.

Think for yourself and fear nothing except fear itself

Max

[hucktunes]

You Christians have such a morbid obsession with death. Always talking
about it and worshiping that dead guy nailed to the cross. And all the
talk about washing in blood and drinking the blood and eating the
flesh of Jesus.

On Apr 13, 6:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[jat316@gmail.com]

On Apr 14, 4:09 am, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 13, 6:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> > after death.
>
> You only believe that. Saying you "understand" you have an afterlife
> implies certainty. If you are certain, please provide the evidence
> that it is true.

Now here's something!

The atheist lambastes the Christian for failing to provide *evidence*
of what is true or not.

Said atheist then proceeeds in the remainder of his post to put
forward his sad and hopeless "absolute truth", without any proof
whatsoever.

Lol.

Why is the Christian held to a standard so much higher than yours??

Herewith your statements of truth and fact, for which I *eagerly*
await your proofs, or your honest admission that you have none:

1 The only thing we know is that we will die. That is the only truth.
2 All evidence points that way. You know, what with all the dead

people lying there doing nothing.

3 Reality doesn't care a bit about our hopes and expectations.
4 "We" aren't nothing.
5 We're a spectacular life form.
6 We have evolved this marvellous brain
7 The odds of being alive, let alone a member of a conscious life
form, are achingly infintesimal.
8 you won't feel anything, including bleakness or hopelessness.
9 You've got a lot of catching up to do in the wisdom and knowledge
department
10 it is never too late
11 We call this "wishful thinking."
12 God is a crutch for your fears.


> ... The odds of being alive, let alone a

> member of a conscious life form, are achingly infintesimal. You have
> won 5 billion Lottos. And you want to spend your precious time whining
> and whimpering about not living forever? What a waste.

Considering those odds, has it ever crossed your mind that Someone
might have had something to do with tweaking them in our favour? Like
rigging these millions of sequential lotteries so that we get to have
our cosmic joy-ride?

You wonder and wax lyrical about the odds against our existence, but
mock with gusto the beliefs of others who attribute that existence not
to the sequential winning of 5 million lotteries purely by blind and
careless chance, but to a caring God who did it all on purpose.

Evolution teaches that life is almost certainly ubiquitous throughout
the universe - I take it from your lottery stance that you do not
agree with this?

[jat316@gmail.com]

On Apr 14, 4:03 am, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 13, 9:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> > after death.
>
> No, you don't. Your body stays in the coffin it was buried in.

Only until Jesus comes, then the righteous will be resurrected to
life, and the unrighteous to judgement.


Decent, sensible proofs of the following statements will be
appreciated:.

> [Heaven is..] A place that doesn't exist

> When you die, you don't return anywhere.

> It's just the configuration necessary for you to perceive conscious existence will not last indefinitely.

Please indicate your opinion on the degree of permanence of the
following states, and provide proof if you assert that they are
permanent:

> Your body stays in the coffin it was buried in.

> All those [organs] will be in the ground, non-functional and rotting away.

> You turn into a cadaver.

> Your motility will be greatly reduced

Unless and until you are able to provide proofs, your statements here
are simply a matter of opinion. What is it that makes your opinion of
greater truth or value than that of Oodlemae?

[e_space]

wow...talk about making unfounded claims! something u admonished me
for many times...u have NO idea about these things yet u state them as
fact...i would say that u are in spiritual hibernation, but that would
preclude that at some point u had recognized spirit...which obviously
u have not...very shallow lightless life u must have

On Apr 13, 10:03 pm, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:

[e_space]

maybe the spirit does not contain cells...ever consider that? dumb
question i know...

> http://www.newsweek.com/id/35045- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[e_space]

what does religion have to do with god?...religion may be a human
attempt to describe something that they may have felt, but really have
no idea about, or just a way for the governing people to control the
flock...u guys keep crapping on me for being sarcastic and moronic,
yet u all jump on the originator of this post like he/she was fresh
meat...and nothing that was said is different that what u have said
MANY times...do u save all of your posts and paste them in?
soooooooooooooooo boring zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

> > Their is a Knowing feeling inside of me that tells me it isn't so.- Hide quoted text -

[e_space]

what does religion have to do with god?...religion may be a human
attempt to describe something that they may have felt, but really have
no idea about, or just a way for the governing people to control the
flock...u guys keep crapping on me for being sarcastic and moronic,
yet u all jump on the originator of this post like he/she was fresh
meat...and nothing that was said is different that what u have said
MANY times...do u save all of your posts and paste them in?
soooooooooooooooo boring zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

On Apr 14, 1:46 am, Max <a...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

[Drafterman]

On Apr 14, 6:47 am, jat...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 14, 4:03 am, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 13, 9:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> > > after death.
>
> > No, you don't. Your body stays in the coffin it was buried in.
>
> Only until Jesus comes, then the righteous will be resurrected to
> life, and the unrighteous to judgement.

Which has as much basis as believing in Ragnarok. (i.e. none)

>
> Decent, sensible proofs of the following statements will be
> appreciated:.
>
> > [Heaven is..] A place that doesn't exist

Definition of myth.

> > When you die, you don't return anywhere.

The dead don't move. Ergo they remain wherever they are put.

> > It's just the configuration necessary for you to perceive conscious existence will not last indefinitely.

Entropy.

>
> Please indicate your opinion on the degree of permanence of the
> following states, and provide proof if you assert that they are
> permanent:

If there is proof to show it a fact, then it wouldn't be my opinion.
So which do you want, opinion or fact?

>
> > Your body stays in the coffin it was buried in.

Coprses and coffins are inanimate objects. Ergo they will remain in
their relative positions until something else acts upon them.

> > All those [organs] will be in the ground, non-functional and rotting away.

Definition of death.

> > You turn into a cadaver.

Definition of death.

> > Your motility will be greatly reduced

Definition of death.

>
> Unless and until you are able to provide proofs, your statements here
> are simply a matter of opinion. What is it that makes your opinion of
> greater truth or value than that of Oodlemae?

Nothing. Good thing I haven't stated my opinion then, isn't it!

[Drafterman]

On Apr 14, 8:00 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> wow...talk about making unfounded claims! something u admonished me
> for many times...u have NO idea about these things yet u state them as
> fact...i would say that u are in spiritual hibernation, but that would
> preclude that at some point u had recognized spirit...which obviously
> u have not...very shallow lightless life u must have

Please provide the specific claims you think are unfounded.

> >http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/ask_the_doctor/decompositionafterdeath.shtml- Hide quoted text -

[Drafterman]

On Apr 14, 8:02 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> maybe the spirit does not contain cells...ever consider that? dumb
> question i know...

Elves don't contain cells either. This fact doesn't particularly
concern me.

> >http://www.newsweek.com/id/35045-Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Larry Recovering...]

Atheists have no belief in the divine, the supernatural.  That's what atheism means.  No belief in God, gods, or pixie dust.  I don't believe I have an immortal soul that exists apart from my biological body.  My consciousness, my self awareness, are the result of biochemical processes.  When I die, I cease to exist.  I won't exist in a state of nothingness, I won't exist at all.

Where do my hopes and expectations lie?  In a life well lived, in thought, in exploration, in enjoyment of the moment, in anticipation of tomorrow, etc.  What I would ask you in turn is why must you have a belief in God to have hopes and expectations?  Why does the notion that there is no eternal life depress you?

Larry Recovering...

If superior creatures from space ever visit earth, the first question they will ask, in order to assess the level of our civilization, is "Have they discovered evolution yet?"

.....Richard Dawkins.....

[Answer_42]

On Apr 13, 9:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Being a Christian I understand

You mean "I believe"

> we return home to our Heavenly Father

<Wishful thinking about a sky daddy snipped>

> Anyways, do most atheists believe everything just goes blank after
> their last breath?

Yes.
This is why we try to make the most of the time we have now.

> Do we all just turn into pixie dust or something???

Nope.
The pixie beliefs are part of the theist domain.

> Seriously though...Where does their hopes and expectation lie?

That deluded theists one day drop their fearful superstitious beliefs
and rejoin the human race as full-fledged independently thinking
individuals.

> I just can't find a place inside of me that can spiritually or

Spiritually?
Explain please.

> Emotionally digest the idea that "WE" are all really nothing

So, you admit you do not know.
Ignorance does not give you the logical right to create totally bogus
answers to your unanswered questions.

Maybe YOU are nothing.
I know I am not nothing.

> and "WE
> ALL" will turn back into a bleak, hopeless Nothingness state forever.
> That sounds like a surreal definition of Hell to me. To never be able
> to progress and grow in Wisdom, Knowledge and Light...Forever! To be
> eternally doomed to be "Nothing" is a nightmare saga. Somehow my Heart
> and soul seems to remember another story.

More fear at work.

> Their is a Knowing feeling inside of me that tells me it isn't so.

Oh, you "feel" you are right, therefore you are right.
Never mind that this feeling stems from incomprehension and fear of
the unknown.
The two weapons all religions have always used to gain converts.
________________________________________________
The Son of God died; it is by all means to be believed because it is
absurd. And he was buried and rose again; the fact is certain, because
it is impossible.
-- Tertullian

[Answer_42]

On Apr 14, 6:34 am, jat...@gmail.com wrote:

> > > Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> > > after death.
>
> > You only believe that. Saying you "understand" you have an afterlife
> > implies certainty. If you are certain, please provide the evidence
> > that it is true.
>
> Now here's something!
>
> The atheist lambastes the Christian for failing to provide *evidence*
> of what is true or not.
>
> Said atheist then proceeeds in the remainder of his post to put
> forward his sad and hopeless "absolute truth", without any proof
> whatsoever.
>
> Lol.
>
> Why is the Christian held to a standard so much higher than yours??

It is not about standards.
It is about providing evidence for claims.
The OP wrote about eterrnal life, heaven, spirits, god and provided no
evidence whatsoever for any of those claims.
He made the claims, he should provide the evidence first.

> Herewith your statements of truth and fact, for which I *eagerly*
> await your proofs, or your honest admission that you have none:
>
> 1  The only thing we know is that we will die. That is the only truth.

Do you know of any living thing that does not die?

> 2  All evidence points that way. You know, what with all the dead
> people lying there doing nothing.

Do you know of any living thing that has moved of their own accord
after dying?

> 3  Reality doesn't care a bit about our hopes and expectations.

So, according to you, one's hopes and expectations could shape
reality?

> 4  "We" aren't nothing.

You want proof that humans are a something as opposed to a nothing?

> 5  We're a spectacular life form.

I can see your problem here, as you seem to be very far from
spectacular yourself...
Unless you want proof that humans are a life form.

> 6  We have evolved this marvellous brain

You want proof that evolution is true?

> 7  The odds of being alive, let alone a member of a conscious life
> form, are achingly infintesimal.

I will give you that one.
This is something we can hardly prove, sine we do not have all the
necessary information one would need to base the calculation on.

> 8  you won't feel anything, including bleakness or hopelessness.

You want proof that dead bodies do not have feelings anymore?

> 9  You've got a lot of catching up to do in the wisdom and knowledge
> department

You want proof that the OP is a little retarded?
Read his post again.

> 10  it is never too late

Are you serious?
You want this statement proven?

> 11  We call this "wishful thinking."

"Wishful thinking is the formation of beliefs and making decisions
according to what might be pleasing to imagine instead of by appealing
to evidence or rationality."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wishful_thinking

> 12  God is a crutch for your fears.

The OP stated some basic fears he would have if he did not believe in
god.
Ergo, his beliefs alleviate his fears.

> > ... The odds of being alive, let alone a
> > member of a conscious life form, are achingly infintesimal. You have
> > won 5 billion Lottos. And you want to spend your precious time whining
> > and whimpering about not living forever? What a waste.
>
> Considering those odds, has it ever crossed your mind that Someone
> might have had something to do with tweaking them in our favour?

Like I said above, these "odds" are fanciful.
They may be higher, or lower, we have no idea.

>Like
> rigging these millions of sequential lotteries so that we get to have
> our cosmic joy-ride?
>
> You wonder and wax lyrical about the odds against our existence, but
> mock with gusto the beliefs of others who attribute that existence not
> to the sequential winning of 5 million lotteries purely by blind and
> careless chance, but to a caring God who did it all on purpose.

Provide any evidence that a god exist, and I, for one, will not make
fun of your beliefs anymore.

> Evolution teaches that life is almost certainly ubiquitous throughout
> the universe - I take it from your lottery stance that you do not
> agree with this?

[Neil Kelsey]

On Apr 14, 3:34 am, jat...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Apr 14, 4:09 am, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 13, 6:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> > > after death.
>
> > You only believe that. Saying you "understand" you have an afterlife
> > implies certainty. If you are certain, please provide the evidence
> > that it is true.
>
> Now here's something!
>
> The atheist lambastes the Christian for failing to provide *evidence*
> of what is true or not.

Specifically, said atheist requests Christian to provide evidence for
his claims of an afterlife, which may qualify as "lambasting" in your
books, but not in a dictionary.

> Said atheist then proceeeds in the remainder of his post to put
> forward his sad and hopeless "absolute truth", without any proof
> whatsoever.
>
> Lol.
>
> Why is the Christian held to a standard so much higher than yours??

I'm not making unfounded claims about an afterlife. If I were, go
ahead and lambaste me.

> Herewith your statements of truth and fact, for which I *eagerly*
> await your proofs, or your honest admission that you have none:
>
> 1  The only thing we know is that we will die. That is the only truth.

I think the fact that no one has lived beyong 100 and some odd years
is pretty conclusive evidence for this..

> 2  All evidence points that way. You know, what with all the dead
> people lying there doing nothing.

I thin the fact that people don't do much after they're dead is good
evidence that they lie there doing nothing, which I was using as
evidence that everything "goes blank after we die." Note that this was
evidence in the first place, and not a "statement of truth and fact."

> 3  Reality doesn't care a bit about our hopes and expectations.

Since our hopes and expectations are regularly dashed, and the planet
Mars doesn't jump in to intervene, I'd say this is a pretty safe
conclusion. A lot of us want to live forever, for instance, and no one
does, unless you have evidence to the contrary? Fantasy worlds don't
count.

> 4  "We" aren't nothing.

Well, we're not.

> 5  We're a spectacular life form.

Subjective opinion, as if you couldn't tell. Oodlemae seemed to be
having trouble with the thought of dying without the promised reward
(or punishment). I was telling her how I deal with it.

> 6  We have evolved this marvellous brain

You have trouble with adjectives? If you don't think the brain is
marvellous, that's fine.

So, once again I am constantly amazed by Christians who disdain their
alleged God's alleged creation (in this case, the human brain).

> 7  The odds of being alive, let alone a member of a conscious life
> form, are achingly infintesimal.

Considering the amount of time, space, and matter there is out there,
this is a true statement.

> 8  you won't feel anything, including bleakness or hopelessness.

If the electricity goes off, that is true, since we are a
bioelectrical organism.

> 9  You've got a lot of catching up to do in the wisdom and knowledge
> department

If he/she thinks there is a magic invisible sadist who runs the
universe, then that's true - that belief is a roadblock to a lot of
knowledge. He/she also says outrageous things about atheists, so he/
she is lacking in the wisdom department too.

> 10  it is never too late

You're right. Sometimes it is too late. I was thinking that as I wrote
it, but I was trying to give OOdlemae a bit of a pep talk. So he/she
can take your advice, then, and kill herself? Sound about right?

> 11  We call this "wishful thinking."

The belief in an afterlife IS wishful thinking, since there is no
evidence there is an afterlife, and the person wants to be immortal.

> 12  God is a crutch for your fears.

God is the manifestation of the wishful thinking, the "cure" for
death. Since there is no evidence that God exists, God is just a
crutch.

Gotta leave for work now.

[Neil Kelsey]

On Apr 14, 3:34 am, jat...@gmail.com wrote:

Sure, since you people are constantly telling me someone did. But you
fail to provide objective and verifiable evidence that this "someone"
exists, so I feel safe in dismissing your claims as wishful thinking.

> Like
> rigging these millions of sequential lotteries so that we get to have
> our cosmic joy-ride?

When you consider the number of atoms there are just on our planet,
and the number of chemical interactions that have taken place over the
past four billion years, I don't think anything needs to be "rigged."

> You wonder and wax lyrical about the odds against our existence,

The odds are 100% that something will happen.

> but
> mock with gusto the beliefs of others who attribute that existence not
> to the sequential winning of 5 million lotteries purely by blind and
> careless chance,

Who said anything about "blind and careless chance?" The natural laws
that the universe operates on limits what can happen. You are not
about to fall up. You're not going to turn water into wine by using
your magic mind control.

> but to a caring God who did it all on purpose.

Until you provide evidence that God exists, I'll dismiss this as
wishful thinking.

> Evolution teaches that life is almost certainly ubiquitous throughout
> the universe - I take it from your lottery stance that you do not
> agree with this?

I do agree with this. But when you compare the inhabitable parts of
the inhabitable planets with the amount of space, the number of
planets, stars, black holes, quasars, nebulae, asteroid belts, moons,
and whatever other surprises there are that aren't hospitable to life,
to be alive is beating astounding odds.

On the other hand, violating the natural laws of nature, like God
does, has zero odds.

[Observer]

On Apr 13, 6:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> after death.

Well, you understand what the fucking god merchants want you to
believe, but it is all superstitious bullshit . So fuck of printing
such psychotic filth.

Psychonomist

[Observer]

On Apr 14, 5:02 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> maybe the spirit does not contain cells...ever consider that? dumb
> question i know...

Observer

Did you ever consider that such as the dumb as fucking concept of a
spirit is just superstitious nonsense?

Yes It is dumb question.

Psychonomist

> >http://www.newsweek.com/id/35045-Hide quoted text -

[Medusa]

On Apr 14, 7:00 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> wow...talk about making unfounded claims! something u admonished me
> for many times...u have NO idea about these things yet u state them as
> fact...i would say that u are in spiritual hibernation, but that would
> preclude that at some point u had recognized spirit...which obviously
> u have not...very shallow lightless life u must have

Prove that "spirits" exist.

No evidence for spirits has ever been found.

Medusa

[Medusa]

On Apr 14, 8:07 am, "Larry Recovering..." <lwill0...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Atheists have no belief in the divine, the supernatural.  That's what
> atheism means.  No belief in God, gods, or pixie dust.  I don't believe I
> have an immortal soul that exists apart from my biological body.  My
> consciousness, my self awareness, are the result of biochemical processes.
> When I die, I cease to exist.  I won't exist in a state of nothingness, I
> won't exist at all.

Exactly.

> Where do my hopes and expectations lie?  In a life well lived, in thought,
> in exploration, in enjoyment of the moment, in anticipation of tomorrow,
> etc.  What I would ask you in turn is why must you have a belief in God to
> have hopes and expectations?  Why does the notion that there is no eternal
> life depress you?

Religion used to depress me when I bought into the myths. Now I take
my life as it comes, and I am much happier.

BTW, I love your Dawkins quote!

Medusa

[j w]

one one knows exactly were one goes after death it is still a mystery to all only the very naive would believe otherwise

[Neil Kelsey]

On Apr 14, 1:11 pm, j w <giocomocasan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> one one knows exactly were one goes after death it is still a mystery to all
> only the very naive would believe otherwise

Which makes the religious very naive.

> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Observer <mayors...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 13, 6:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> > > after death.
>
> > Well,  you understand what the fucking god merchants want you to
> > believe, but it is all superstitious bullshit . So fuck of printing
> > such psychotic filth.
>

> > Psychonomist- Hide quoted text -

[hucktunes]

On Apr 14, 1:11 pm, j w <giocomocasan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> one one knows exactly were one goes after death it is still a mystery to all
> only the very naive would believe otherwise

Exactly. That's why Christian Faith is really not faith at all. It is
hope. Rather than having faith that all is as it should be, they hope
that their second guessing is correct and they will be rewarded for
their belief. The church and the bankers cash in on this naivety.

On Apr 14, 1:11 pm, j w <giocomocasan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> one one knows exactly were one goes after death it is still a mystery to all
> only the very naive would believe otherwise
>

[j w]

quite true

[Neil Kelsey]

On Apr 14, 1:28 pm, hucktunes <bob.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 1:11 pm, j w <giocomocasan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > one one knows exactly were one goes after death it is still a mystery to all
> > only the very naive would believe otherwise
>
> Exactly. That's why Christian Faith is really not faith at all. It is
> hope. Rather than having faith that all is as it should be, they hope
> that their second guessing is correct and they will be rewarded for
> their belief. The church and the bankers cash in on this naivety.

Peeling it away even more, it is hope for immortality, and peeling
that away even more, it is fear of death to the extent that it
requires deluding oneself about the existence of a magic invisible man
who will come to their rescue in order to quell their fear. And you're
right, there's a huge industry built around this fear.

> On Apr 14, 1:11 pm, j w <giocomocasan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > one one knows exactly were one goes after death it is still a mystery to all
> > only the very naive would believe otherwise
>
> > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Observer <mayors...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 13, 6:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> > > > after death.
>
> > > Well,  you understand what the fucking god merchants want you to
> > > believe, but it is all superstitious bullshit . So fuck of printing
> > > such psychotic filth.
>

[Slinkey]

On Apr 14, 2:29 am, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father

> after death. We are presently in our home away from "Home". The veil

> will depart from our minds and we will remember the Plan of Salvation
> once more.

Actually Cthulu doesn't care what you think. Your ass is hers.

> When we die we can't take our houses, BMW's or credit cards with us

> (thank God.) We return home with our developed virtues or with our

> spiritually malnourished states of mind.

> I admit..I'm kinda hoping I can get a crispy creme donut after I

> die...after I visit the relatives of course. I'm allergic to flour/

> wheat and I haven't had a good donut for about a decade now...

> When everyone else wants that up-grade, to live among the mansions of
> Heaven etc..I just want Tennessee back. I think it's the most divine
> place on earth.
>

> Anyways, do most atheists believe everything just goes blank after

> their last breath? Do we all just turn into pixie dust or something???

> Seriously though...Where does their hopes and expectation lie?
>

> I just can't find a place inside of me that can spiritually or
> Emotionally digest the idea that "WE" are all really nothing and "WE
> ALL" will turn back into a bleak, hopeless Nothingness state forever.

> That sounds like a surreal definition of Hell to me. To never be able
> to progress and grow in Wisdom, Knowledge and Light...Forever! To be
> eternally doomed to be "Nothing" is a nightmare saga. Somehow my Heart

> and soul seems to remember another story.

[Max]

If you're sooooooooooooo bored......just gooooooooooooooooooooo away!

Max

[maggie]

why would you ask this here? It's called "Atheism Vs. Christianity",
you're not going to get the answers you need. Or are you? A ringer,
a plant, a flamer? Stop.....how old are you? Educate yourself....go
to a barroom with a rabbi, a minister, a priest...educate yourself.
Don't throw stuff like this out there, here. Unless you are a
designated flamer, wasting space.

[Oodlemae]

Over all the dispensations of time that this earth has past through,
their have been many people who have mocked and challenged the
actualities of God. These, the proof and sign seekers. Having Faith in
something you cannot see, but FEEL was illogical and belong their
reasoned heads .They wanted God to come and spell it out over the
heavens for them to see. Some even wandered why they weren't privy to
having visions and miracles that they could plainly be seen.

If you believe in miracles
Then they will surely come.
If you don't
then why would God send you that which your heart already deny?
You would never acknowledge such an experience ?
"Personal revelation" is a gift.. Why would God place a gift before
you, that you'd deny or squander away anyhow?

[jat316@gmail.com]

On Apr 14, 4:34 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 3:34 am, jat...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Apr 14, 4:09 am, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 13, 6:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> > > > after death.
>
> > > You only believe that. Saying you "understand" you have an afterlife
> > > implies certainty. If you are certain, please provide the evidence
> > > that it is true.
>
> > Now here's something!
>
> > The atheist lambastes the Christian for failing to provide *evidence*
> > of what is true or not.
>
> Specifically, said atheist requests Christian to provide evidence for
> his claims of an afterlife, which may qualify as "lambasting" in your
> books, but not in a dictionary.
>
> > Said atheist then proceeeds in the remainder of his post to put
> > forward his sad and hopeless "absolute truth", without any proof
> > whatsoever.
>
> > Lol.
>
> > Why is the Christian held to a standard so much higher than yours??
>
> I'm not making unfounded claims about an afterlife. If I were, go
> ahead and lambaste me.

But you *are* making unfounded claims about the *absence* of an
afterlife.

You are not able to prove a single thing that you said outside of your
own opinion, and this is evidenced by the frequency with which you
used the expressions "I think" and "I'd say".

The general point that I am making is that your atheism requires
assumptions just like theism. You are neither better off, nor more
scientific, than a theist.

You can not comment with any authority about life after death, since
you are not capable of assessing the dead, or the living, or the
future, or by and large the past either.


{snip}

[hucktunes]

I've seen dead people and I've never seen any sign of life in them
whatsoever. They've never moved an inch. No breathing, no blinking,
nothing. I've visited many grave yards and same thing. Plus I've spent
many hours in the university cadaver room as a custodian. I've moved
the gurneys around and mopped the floors. You'd think if they were
gonna come to life it would be in the cadaver room while I was mopping
up. Nope. Has anybody here seen signs of life after death?

[Max]

The burden of proof always rests with the claimant.

Those that proclaim or intimate the existance of an afterlife cannot
base their 'belief' on anything other than pure speculation. I could
just as easily announce that when I die, I will reappear on a planet
700 light years from Earth. Further, my body will be three time it's
current height and sex can be performed with 7 gorgeous women of my
choosing and simultaneously, by using my 7 penises.

If you claim that is bullshit, well then that's just an assumption on
your part isn't it?

Well isn't it?

Max

[Medusa]

On Apr 14, 3:11 pm, j w <giocomocasan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> one one knows exactly were one goes after death it is still a mystery to all
> only the very naive would believe otherwise

Exactly. Then it follows that all the believers in a god that will
take them to a wonderous space called 'heaven" are extremely naive.

Medusa

[thetard]

why don't you go there and let us know what there is?
maybe then i'll become an atheist

[Observer]

On Apr 14, 1:11 pm, j w <giocomocasan...@gmail.com> wrote:
> one one knows exactly were one goes after death it is still a mystery to all
> only the very naive would believe otherwise

Observer
What happens when you step on a bug and it dies ? What makes the
death of a man any different or is it?

Psychonomist

[Larry Williams]

Medusa wrote:
> I do, too; One of my favorites. If you didn't know, it's from the first few pages of _The Selfish Gene_. I'd have to get my copy out to be exactly sure where.
>
Larry

[Oodlemae]

I'm leaving this group. I have a new job that will enviably take up
far too much of my time. But I will leave by saying this, I know that
Jesus is the Christ. He died for all mankind, so they might partake of
his Atoning Sacrifice for them. He created all life and
placed it upon this world, so that we might be. I want to publicity
acknowledge his saving GRACE. I would not be here, if it weren't for
him.Every fiber of my being testifies of his GOODNESS. He can heal the
stripes of the repentant heart, of the tired traveler. A place has
been made ready, for the truth seekers of this world. I testify of
this in his holy name, even JESUS CHRIST. Amen

[Neil Kelsey]

On Apr 15, 10:32 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I'm leaving this group. I have a new job that will enviably take up
> far too much of my time.

I lack belief that is why you are leaving this group. You're leaving
because no one was bowled over by your fire and brimstone. Man.
Theists are as transparent as six year olds.

> But I will leave by saying this,  I know that
> Jesus is the Christ. He died for all mankind, so they might partake of
> his Atoning Sacrifice for them. He created all life and
> placed it upon this world, so that we might be. I want to publicity
> acknowledge his saving GRACE. I would not be here, if it weren't for
> him.Every fiber of my being testifies of his GOODNESS. He can heal the
> stripes of the repentant heart, of the tired traveler. A place has
> been made ready, for the truth seekers of this world. I testify of
> this in his holy name, even JESUS CHRIST. Amen

Unsupported assertions are not evidence that God exists. But it so
adorable the way you lunatics like to announce your comings and goings
with trumpets blowing and banners waving. Maybe you can hire some
midgets and stick wings on 'em, then you got yourself some cupids,
too.

There goes a great man (woman?)...

[philosophy]

Amen to you too!

[Max]

Queen to Bishop 6, mate....!!

Thanks for playing

Max

[goldbrick]

Another one bites the dust, but that is what group is about, the
humiliation of Christians.
Make sure you have learnt some lessons from your encounter with the
enemy of God. Forgive them Father , they know not what they do.

[Trance Gemini]

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 5:41 AM, goldbrick <joh...@bigpond.com> wrote:

Another one bites the dust, but that is what group is about, the
humiliation of Christians.
Make sure you have learnt some lessons from your encounter with the
enemy of God. Forgive them Father , they know not what they do.

Do they give you guys lessons in creating dramas in church?

On Apr 16, 3:32 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I'm leaving this group. I have a new job that will enviably take up
> far too much of my time. But I will leave by saying this,  I know that
> Jesus is the Christ. He died for all mankind, so they might partake of
> his Atoning Sacrifice for them. He created all life and
> placed it upon this world, so that we might be. I want to publicity
> acknowledge his saving GRACE. I would not be here, if it weren't for
> him.Every fiber of my being testifies of his GOODNESS. He can heal the
> stripes of the repentant heart, of the tired traveler. A place has
> been made ready, for the truth seekers of this world. I testify of
> this in his holy name, even JESUS CHRIST. Amen

--
I want to dance. I want to win. I want that Bingo trophy!

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Apr 13, 9:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father

> after death. We are presently in our home away from "Home". The veil
> will depart from our minds and we will remember the Plan of Salvation
> once more.

You'll return home even before being judged? (Matthew 19:28)

> When we die we can't take our houses, BMW's or credit cards with us
> (thank God.) We return home with our developed virtues or with our
> spiritually malnourished states of mind.
> I admit..I'm kinda hoping I can get a crispy creme donut after I
> die...after I visit the relatives of course. I'm allergic to flour/
> wheat and I haven't had a good donut for about a decade now...
> When everyone else wants that up-grade, to live among the mansions of
> Heaven etc..I just want Tennessee back. I think it's the most divine
> place on earth.

It is one of the few states where property values haven't dropped
significantly.

> Anyways, do most atheists believe everything just goes blank after
> their last breath? Do we all just turn into pixie dust or something???
> Seriously though...Where does their hopes and expectation lie?

Was everything blank before your first breath? If so, does it mean
that you came from pixie dust or something? If not, where did you come
from?

> I just can't find a place inside of me that can spiritually or
> Emotionally digest the idea that "WE" are all really nothing and "WE
> ALL" will turn back into a bleak, hopeless Nothingness state forever.
> That sounds like a surreal definition of Hell to me. To never be able
> to progress and grow in Wisdom, Knowledge and Light...Forever! To be
> eternally doomed to be "Nothing" is a nightmare saga. Somehow my Heart
> and soul seems to remember another story.

Will a dog grow in wisdom, knowledge and light forever after death? If
not, is a dog really nothing?

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Apr 14, 6:47 am, jat...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Apr 14, 4:03 am, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 13, 9:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> > > after death.
>

> > No, you don't. Your body stays in the coffin it was buried in.
>
> Only until Jesus comes, then the righteous will be resurrected to
> life, and the unrighteous to judgement.

Did Jesus say this?

[e_space]

i didnt say spiritS exist...i have had many spiritual experiences and
attempting to even describe them to u would be a total waste of time,
let alone trying to prove them. the standard atheist line of asking
for proof is SO tiresome...instead of always asking others for proof,
why dont u spend some time looking inside of yourself?

On Apr 14, 3:59 pm, Medusa <Medusa4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 14, 7:00 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > wow...talk about making unfounded claims! something u admonished me
> > for many times...u have NO idea about these things yet u state them as
> > fact...i would say that u are in spiritual hibernation, but that would
> > preclude that at some point u had recognized spirit...which obviously
> > u have not...very shallow lightless life u must have
>
> Prove that "spirits" exist.
>
> No evidence for spirits has ever been found.
>
> Medusa

[e_space]

but the same concept makes atheists geniuses?

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[e_space]

belief, hope, faith....whats the diff?

[e_space]

no wonder u are so pessimistic about god...u take everything stated
about the subject literally...basing your opinion about god as a
reflection of the words of others is like saying u know what an orgasm
feels like because somebody else has described it to u...

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[e_space]

i never stated i was bored...i stated u were boring...

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[e_space]

hmmmm....and here i thought science stated that energy cannot be
created nor destroyed...its no wonder u are an atheist as you have NO
idea about spiritual energy. everything is taken in its literal sense
producing weak arguments substantiated by nothing...sorta hollow
existance imo

> > {snip}- Hide quoted text -

[e_space]

but your claim of no afterlife is based on fact? hmmmmm....how clever!

[e_space]

and the belief that their is no god is????? rational? factual?
intelligent?

[Neil Kelsey]

On Apr 16, 6:01 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> but the same concept makes atheists geniuses?

Atheists say there is no evidence for an afterlife, and they're right.
But there is a lot of evidence that dead people don't do much,
Christian or otherwise.

Theists say they know there is an afterlife, when they really have no
clue. Well, they have the same clue everyone else has - dead people
just lie around doing nothing. So belief in an afterlife seems pretty
neurotic, fooling yourself into thinking you are immortal. And tossing
in a few punishment fantasies while you're at it. At the very least
belef in an afterlife can be labelled as wishful thinking.

[e_space]

well...some humans are like bugs, void of imagination and
spirit...under these circumstances there is no difference.

[e_space]

what would u know about great? wait until u leave the basement of the
sewer that u thrive under before u attempt to make that ascertation
about another is my suggestion...;^)

[e_space]

move past the physical neily...never know...u may like it

[Neil Kelsey]

On Apr 16, 6:20 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> move past the physical neily...never know...u may like it

I think anything past "physical reality" is all in your imagination. I
like reality just fine, thanks. I have no desire whatsoever to be like
you.

[Drafterman]

On Apr 16, 9:20 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> move past the physical neily...never know...u may like it

Untless you can provide some sort of viable process or procedure by
which one can relaibly "move past the physical", comments like these
are nothing more than useless psychobabbling nonsense.

[Max]

So if you weren't bored, you were engaged were you? Clearly so,
otherwise you would have wandered off elsewhere and refrained from
further discourse with me? But you chose to continue....???

Typical god nutter....truly high maintenance.

Max

[Max]

Trouble understanding accepted conventions I see. It's like talking to
a brick wall.

No prizes for obfuscation or clownish behaviour either.

So you're happy enough with a belief in my 7 dick afterlife, yes?

Max

[Neil Kelsey]

No, YOU are. Me saying "I don't think there is an afterlife because
you have no evidence there is and dead people don't seem to be doing
much" is an opinion (designated by the words "I think"), not an
unfounded claim.

> You are not able to prove a single thing that you said outside of your
> own opinion,

I can prove dead people just lie around doing nothing. And besides, it
is only your opinion there is an afterlife, even if you like to dress
it up as a fact. And your opinion is not backed by evidence, whereas
mine is.

> and this is evidenced by the frequency with which you
> used the expressions "I think" and "I'd say".

Right. And instead of being honest and using those phrases when you
are spouting your own opinions, you bluster that they are fact.
Popping blood vessels does not make opinions become fact.

> The general point that I am making is that your atheism requires
> assumptions just like theism.

Wrong. My atheism is based on (lack of) evidence that God exists. And
for the issue of any kind afterlife, my skepticism is based on
evidence that dead people lie around all day doing nothing but
decomposing.

> You are neither better off, nor more
> scientific, than a theist.

I guess you don't understand the importance of evidence. If you did,
you wouldn't be a theist.

> You can not comment with any authority about life after death,

Neither can you, but I know what I see, whereas you don't see what you
claim to know.

>since
> you are not capable of assessing the dead, or the living, or the
> future, or by and large the past either.

I think I'm capable of assessing at least one important difference
between the dead and the living that you don't seem to grasp - life. I
would say it beats me how you can't notice the difference, except it
doesn't beat me. Freud talked about this very subject. You are so
afraid of death (I don't blame you) that you are willing to embrace
elaborate fantasies to fool yourself into thinking you can avoid it.
That would be harmless, except these elaborate immortality delusions
are accompanied with punishment fantasies for the living (people who
don't belong to your cult of choice), and that's the problem.

[xnun]

On Apr 16, 6:00 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:

>..instead of always asking others for proof, atheists,

> why dont u spend some time looking inside of yourself?

-------------------------
If I were one, I wouldn't want to look inside :)

[xnun]

On Apr 16, 6:06 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:

> i never stated i was bored...i stated u were boring...
>
> On Apr 14, 6:01 pm, Max <a...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
> > If you're sooooooooooooo bored......just gooooooooooooooooooooo away!

-------------------
LOL!!! The Christians are kicking major butt this evening!!

Now watch..............that will get a screech in the moderator
forum :)

[xnun]

On Apr 16, 7:07 am, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Untless you can provide some sort of viable process or procedure by
> which one can relaibly "move past the physical", comments like these
> are nothing more than useless psychobabbling nonsense.

----------------------------
Ask Doctor Rappoccio about quantum mechanics and the multiverse.
That will blow what's left of your mind.

[Max]

Hey xnun,

I'm just wondering why you picked the quote you did in your profile
here. Of course for those who are interested, this is the extended
quote from jebus that xnun identifies with;

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come
to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his
father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law
against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of
his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not
worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not
worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me
is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he
who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39
NASB)

My query is, why would you pick this particular bit of 'giggle book'
musings as one you identify with. I mean, does the violence promoted
by the deluded and sandled one get you all hot & bothered does it?

A bit of a 'turn on' perhaps? Are their whips and is hot wax involved
perchance.

Max

[e_space]

yep...i know i have no function here...cant get blood from a stone

[e_space]

well....i see that u can read....let me know when u can comprehend ;^)

[Lawrey]

Oodlemae,

Look at all living things. They die, eventually. Fact!

Face it, life for humans is built aruond, KNOW, DO, and HOPE.

If you build your hopes into dreams and beliefs without Knowledge,

you condemn yourself to a life lived in a fantasy.

Man is born to procreate and in so doing he passes on his genes.

If you must have comfort at the thougth of death and the end, then

think of it this way:

I will live on in my children and their children and their children
and

in giving life, I have given the most precious gift to countless

generations, what more could I hope for? and why would I need to

live forever in this body when I can live in theirs.

I look at my children and I am happy to die knowing they carry

I small part of me and my love for them into the future.

I have no fear of death though I may bauk at the idea, it is after all

quite natural to wish to cling to life.

Live your life, DO what you can, KNOW what you can and HOPE

that at the end you have done your best. You can do no more.

Rely on belief and you believe in vain.

[e_space]

ure accepted conventions mean dick to me...7 dicks if u like ;^)

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Max]

They're not my conventions. They're from cleverer [sic] dicks than you
though!!

Max

[e_space]

i said ure accepted conventions didnt i? i didnt say u originated
them...im not that stupid lol...ure a result of what u can see and
touch...yuck

[Drafterman]

On Apr 17, 6:23 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> yep...i know i have no function here...cant get blood from a stone

You're right, the best teachers always blame the students.

[e_space]

huh? if a teacher is good, what are they blaming the students for???
and what does teaching/learning have to do with anything? im not
trying to teach anybody anything and im certainly not here to
learn........

[Drafterman]

On Apr 17, 8:34 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> huh? if a teacher is good, what are they blaming the students for???

You tell me. You're the one blaming us for not understanding your
message.

[Neil Kelsey]

Hey, physics professor. The multiverse theory is not "moving past the
physical," string theory IS physics. And that theory has not been
proven, either.

[e_space]

us? what is my message? and even if i had one, i dont recall blaming
anyone...

[Drafterman]

On Apr 17, 9:15 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> us? what is my message? and even if i had one, i dont recall blaming
> anyone...

Message: "move past the physical neily...never know...u may like it"
Blaming Us: "cant get blood from a stone"

[e_space]

point 1...thats a suggesetion....point 2...thats an observation

[Drafterman]

On Apr 17, 9:37 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> point 1...thats a suggesetion....point 2...thats an observation

Yes, your have suggested your message to us (that we look past the
physical)
And your observation is that our lack of understanding this message is
our fault (blood from a stone).

Just like any good teacher!

[Neil Kelsey]

On Apr 17, 6:59 am, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Apr 17, 9:37 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > point 1...thats a suggesetion....point 2...thats an observation
>
> Yes, your have suggested your message to us (that we look past the
> physical)
> And your observation is that our lack of understanding this message is
> our fault (blood from a stone).
>
> Just like any good teacher!

Would that be a message? An observation? A suggestion? Or even a
lesson? Maybe a message of an observation? Or a message of a
suggestion of a lesson?

[e_space]

saying the chance of u understanding what i have said is not blaming
u, because first of all, i couldnt care less if u understood or not,
and secondly, i never expected u to...just a statement...hope that
clears it up

[e_space]

shhh...ur single digit iq is showing again...hahahaha

[Drafterman]

On Apr 17, 10:38 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> saying the chance of u understanding what i have said is not blaming
> u, because first of all, i couldnt care less if u understood or not,
> and secondly, i never expected u to...just a statement...hope that
> clears it up

Not at all. I agree. The change of me understanding something you
refuse to explain is, indeed, like getting blood from a stone.

[Neil Kelsey]

On Apr 17, 7:38 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> shhh...ur single digit iq is showing again...hahahaha

Oh, please, give me some more messages that aren't lessons so I can be
smrt lik u.

[John Stockwell]

On Apr 13, 7:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father

> after death. We are presently in our home away from "Home". The veil
> will depart from our minds and we will remember the Plan of Salvation
> once more.

Nice thought, but it may be that the Plan has you in working in
the coal stoking and furnace buisiness for the forseeable future.

> When we die we can't take our houses, BMW's or credit cards with us
> (thank God.) We return home with our developed virtues or with our
> spiritually malnourished states of mind.
> I admit..I'm kinda hoping I can get a crispy creme donut after I
> die...after I visit the relatives of course. I'm allergic to flour/
> wheat and I haven't had a good donut for about a decade now...
> When everyone else wants that up-grade, to live among the mansions of
> Heaven etc..I just want Tennessee back. I think it's the most divine
> place on earth.

This, of course, is a fantasy. You imagine all of the things that you
like with none of the rough edges. Put you in that smoothed out,
artificially sweetened, cartoon world, and how many years would
it take for you to beg for nonexistence? Is Aunt Martha without her
rough edges really Aunt Martha anymore, but a stepford version,
a robot, a zombie...

>
> Anyways, do most atheists believe everything just goes blank after
> their last breath? Do we all just turn into pixie dust or something???
> Seriously though...Where does their hopes and expectation lie?

We have one life and one life alone as far as we know. Indeed,
the only things that survives us when we die are the reactions to
our actions. In our lives we care about our fellow humans and
our environment. A life lived well will have positive reactions, a
life lived poorly, the reactions will not be positive for those who
remain. But like the sign in the bar "all of our patrons make us
happy, some when they arrive, others when they leave".

The best thing that living people can say about the
dead is: "that person's life is now complete". That story has
is finished.

>
> I just can't find a place inside of me that can spiritually or
> Emotionally digest the idea that "WE" are all really nothing and "WE
> ALL" will turn back into a bleak, hopeless Nothingness state forever.
> That sounds like a surreal definition of Hell to me. To never be able
> to progress and grow in Wisdom, Knowledge and Light...Forever! To be
> eternally doomed to be "Nothing" is a nightmare saga. Somehow my Heart
> and soul seems to remember another story.
> Their is a Knowing feeling inside of me that tells me it isn't so.

Sorry, but that just the Wishful Thinking inside you. You create a
fantasy world, and want to move into it. It's a sick fantasy, really.

-John

[John Stockwell]

On Apr 16, 7:00 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i didnt say spiritS exist...i have had many spiritual experiences and
> attempting to even describe them to u would be a total waste of time,

Because they are examples of your self-delusion?

> let alone trying to prove them. the standard atheist line of asking
> for proof is SO tiresome...instead of always asking others for proof,

> why dont u spend some time looking inside of yourself?

You have to realize that non-belief is an informed state. You
must realize that most of us used to *be* you. Once you get
past the notion that you have had "spiritual experiences"
then you may actually recognize that the doubt we express
for all things spiritual, magical, and divine is a healthy state,
and the attachment to these is a kind of sickness.



>
> On Apr 14, 3:59 pm, Medusa <Medusa4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > On Apr 14, 7:00 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > wow...talk about making unfounded claims! something u admonished me
> > > for many times...u have NO idea about these things yet u state them as
> > > fact...i would say that u are in spiritual hibernation, but that would
> > > preclude that at some point u had recognized spirit...which obviously
> > > u have not...very shallow lightless life u must have
>
> > Prove that "spirits" exist.
>
> > No evidence for spirits has ever been found.
>
> > Medusa

[Neil Kelsey]

On Apr 16, 6:04 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> no wonder u are so pessimistic about god...

But I'm not "pessimistic" about God.

> u take everything stated
> about the subject literally...

So theists don't mean what they say? Take that up with them. Or
yourself, since you're a theist.

> basing your opinion about god as a
> reflection of the words of others is like saying u know what an orgasm
> feels like because somebody else has described it to u...

Lame analogies about something that can be shown to exist (orgasms)
are not useful in showing the existence of God.

> On Apr 14, 4:44 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
>
>
> > On Apr 14, 1:28 pm, hucktunes <bob.h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Apr 14, 1:11 pm, j w <giocomocasan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > one one knows exactly were one goes after death it is still a mystery to all
> > > > only the very naive would believe otherwise
>

> > > Exactly. That's why Christian Faith is really not faith at all. It is
> > > hope. Rather than having faith that all is as it should be, they hope
> > > that their second guessing is correct and they will be rewarded for
> > > their belief. The church and the bankers cash in on this naivety.
>
> > Peeling it away even more, it is hope for immortality, and peeling
> > that away even more, it is fear of death to the extent that it
> > requires deluding oneself about the existence of a magic invisible man
> > who will come to their rescue in order to quell their fear. And you're
> > right, there's a huge industry built around this fear.

>
> > > On Apr 14, 1:11 pm, j w <giocomocasan...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > one one knows exactly were one goes after death it is still a mystery to all
> > > > only the very naive would believe otherwise
>

> > > > On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 2:49 PM, Observer <mayors...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

> > > > > On Apr 13, 6:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father
> > > > > > after death.
>

[Sketch System]

On Apr 13, 6:29 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Being a Christian I understand we return home to our Heavenly Father

> after death. We are presently in our home away from "Home". The veil
> will depart from our minds and we will remember the Plan of Salvation
> once more.
>

> When we die we can't take our houses, BMW's or credit cards with us
> (thank God.) We return home with our developed virtues or with our
> spiritually malnourished states of mind.

Being a fan of Star Wars I understand that when a Jedi with the right
training dies, they can communicate with living Jedi. So what? You
can understand myth all you like. That doesn't make it fact.

> I admit..I'm kinda hoping I can get a crispy creme donut after I
> die...after I visit the relatives of course. I'm allergic to flour/
> wheat and I haven't had a good donut for about a decade now...
> When everyone else wants that up-grade, to live among the mansions of
> Heaven etc..I just want Tennessee back. I think it's the most divine
> place on earth.

This statement makes you seem...simple.

> Anyways, do most atheists believe everything just goes blank after
> their last breath?

Nope everything stays the same (aside from me as I'm dead).

> Do we all just turn into pixie dust or something???

Yeah...atheists believe we all turn into pixie dust.

> Seriously though...Where does their hopes and expectation lie?

During our lifetimes.

> I just can't find a place inside of me that can spiritually or
> Emotionally digest the idea that "WE" are all really nothing and "WE
> ALL" will turn back into a bleak, hopeless Nothingness state forever.

That's because it's not true. That is to say that "nothing" is not
bleak or hopeless. It's just nothing. What was your existence like
before you were born? You also, IMHO, make the mistake of thinking
you can determine reality based on what you feel. The fact is that
there is no evidence of any anything happening to the dead but decay.

> That sounds like a surreal definition of Hell to me. To never be able
> to progress and grow in Wisdom, Knowledge and Light...Forever! To be
> eternally doomed to be "Nothing" is a nightmare saga.

If hell is nothing, sign me up. The nightmare is being forced to
exist forever.

> Somehow my Heart
> and soul seems to remember another story.

The heart is a muscle that pumps blood. It is not capable of
remembering stories. Meanwhile, there is no evidence for the
existence of the soul. Perhaps you would be able to cope with reality
better if you spent less time trying to relate to it through mystical
platitudes.

> Their is a Knowing feeling inside of me that tells me it isn't so.

Knowledge comes from the search of and the recognition of fact, not
from whim.

[Sketch System]

On Apr 14, 8:13 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Over all the dispensations of time that this earth has past through,
> their have been many people who have mocked and challenged the
> actualities of God.

What actualities?

> These, the proof and sign seekers.

This makes no sense.

> Having Faith in
> something you cannot see, but FEEL was illogical and belong their
> reasoned heads .

Again, this makes no sense.

> They wanted God to come and spell it out over the
> heavens for them to see.

I would settle for some evidence.

> Some even wandered why they weren't privy to
> having visions and miracles that they could plainly be seen.

I have never wandered(sic) that.

> If you believe in miracles
> Then they will surely come.

Yes, yes...to believe, one must first believe.

> If you don't
> then why would God send you that which your heart already deny?

A false assumption. There has been nothing presented to deny.

> You would never acknowledge such an experience ?

I acknowledge imagination and coincidence for what they are.

> "Personal revelation" is a gift.

Prove it.

> Why would God place a gift before
> you, that you'd deny or squander away anyhow?

The arrogance is stunning.

[Sketch System]

On Apr 16, 6:00 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> i didnt say spiritS exist...i have had many spiritual experiences and
> attempting to even describe them to u would be a total waste of time,

> let alone trying to prove them. the standard atheist line of asking
> for proof is SO tiresome...

Actually, I think we have been mostly asking for evidence.

> instead of always asking others for proof,
> why dont u spend some time looking inside of yourself?

It isn't my job to find evidence for the assertions of others.
Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure that performing X-rays or exploratory
surgery on myself won't reveal any God.

[Jericho]

On Apr 14, 7:13 pm, Oodlemae <solsticeyea...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Over all the dispensations of time that this earth has past through,
> their have been many people who have mocked and challenged the

> actualities of God. These, the proof and sign seekers. Having Faith in

> something you cannot see, but FEEL was illogical and belong their

> reasoned heads .They wanted God to come and spell it out over the
> heavens for them to see. Some even wandered why they weren't privy to

> having visions and miracles that they could plainly be seen.
>

> If you believe in miracles
> Then they will surely come.

> If you don't
> then why would God send you that which your heart already deny?

> You would never acknowledge such an experience ?

> "Personal revelation" is a gift.. Why would God place a gift before

> you, that you'd deny or squander away anyhow?

In other words, you can't be a member of the club unless you're
already a member. And only theists want "personal revelation"; we
want "mass revelation". Believing in something just because you
believe in something is redundant redundant.

Jericho

[xnun]

On Apr 16, 10:20 pm, Max <a...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:

> Hey xnun,
>
> I'm just wondering why you picked the quote you did in your profile
> here. Of course for those who are interested, this is the extended
> quote from jebus that xnun identifies with;
>
> "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come
> to bring peace, but a sword.
---------------------------
One of the greatest spiritual leaders I ever met told me:

"It's all spiritual warfare."

For those who have bothered to read scriptures, that is obvious.

There hasn't been peace on the earth since the fall of Adam and Eve,
thanks to Satan and his sock puppets (such as those on AvC.)

The only weapon mentioned throughout the Bible is the sword.

Paul wrote in his epistles: "We do not struggle against flesh
and blood, but against principalities and powers and the rulers
of darkness, and spiritual wickedness in high places. (Like
with a few AvC moderators and their queen alien.) So put on
the whole armor of God......and the sword of the spirit."

There is a great quote:

THOSE WHO BEAT THEIR SWORDS INTO PLOWSHARES'

USUALLY END UP PLOWING FOR THOSE WHO KEPT THEIR SWORDS

Finally, I love the great scene in the movie Patton when he says:

"Look at that. I love it. God help me, I do love it so!!":

Well, I do.

I still have my sword.

> My query is, why would you pick this particular bit of 'giggle book'
> musings as one you identify with. I mean, does the violence promoted
> by the deluded and sandled one get you all hot & bothered does it?
>
> A bit of a 'turn on' perhaps? Are their whips and is hot wax involved
> perchance.
>
> Max

[Neil Kelsey]

On Apr 17, 5:08 pm, xnun <xnun2...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Apr 16, 10:20 pm, Max <a...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
> > Hey xnun,
>
> > I'm just wondering why you picked the quote you did in your profile
> > here. Of course for those who are interested, this is the extended
> > quote from jebus that xnun identifies with;
>
> > "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come
> > to bring peace, but a sword.
>
> ---------------------------
>  One of the greatest spiritual leaders I ever met told me:
>
>  "It's all spiritual warfare."

That's just your delusion.

>  For those who have bothered to read scriptures, that is obvious.

Read scriptures; they're obviouslty make believe, and rather turgid
make believe at that. You just like them because they arouse your
punishment fantasies.

>  There hasn't been peace on the earth since the fall of Adam and Eve,
> thanks to Satan and his sock puppets (such as those on AvC.)

It's so quaint to find a woman who believes that adult males can give
birth to adult females by the magic extraction of a bone, and that
snakes can talk, and that a tree can bear magic fruit that allows you
to know things if you eat it. It's a lot like you're playing Dungeons
and Dragons.

>   The only weapon mentioned throughout the Bible is the sword.

Is it a +2 magic sword of flaming bullshit?

>   Paul wrote in his epistles: "We do not struggle against flesh
> and blood, but against principalities and powers and the rulers
> of darkness, and spiritual wickedness in high places.

Paul sounds as paranoid delusional as you do.

>  (Like
> with a few AvC moderators and their queen alien.)  

Right. I hear the AvC moderators were responsible for 9/11. Better
call the FBI.

> So put on
> the whole armor of God......and the sword of the spirit."

And the +3 Shield of Hallucination and the Leather Boots of
Dominatrixness.

>   There is a great quote:
>
>   THOSE WHO BEAT THEIR SWORDS INTO PLOWSHARES'
>
>   USUALLY END UP PLOWING FOR THOSE WHO KEPT THEIR SWORDS

Right. And as long as psychopaths like you aren't getting treated,
it's a good thing my taxes pay for law enforcement.

>    Finally, I love the great scene in the movie Patton when he says:
>
>   "Look at that.  I love it.  God help me, I do love it so!!":

You're more Hitler than Patton.

>   Well, I do.
>
>   I still have my sword.

Of course you do. You're deranged.

> > My query is, why would you pick this particular bit of 'giggle book'
> > musings as one you identify with. I mean, does the violence promoted
> > by the deluded and sandled one get you all hot & bothered does it?
>
> > A bit of a 'turn on' perhaps? Are their whips and is hot wax involved
> > perchance.
>

> > Max- Hide quoted text -

[goldbrick]

One will not learn anything about Atheism or Christianity but you will
learn a lot about human nature and psyches (spirits) without anyone
teaching it.Atheist will be in denial of psyche even though they have
a science of it. On the other hand Jesus didn't muck about, when He
met the madman He said, "evil Spirits, come out". It would be
interesting to hear how an Atheist Biologist would explain mental
illness, or sanity even in terms of evolving cells.