Biblical Archaeology Discoveries

[Counsellor Publishing]

Lost Civillization under the Persian Gulf

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101208151609.htm

More biblical archaeology discoveries

http://www.counsellorpublishing.com/images/BiblicalArchaeologyDiscoveries2.pdf

[Neil Kelsey]

On Feb 28, 4:17 pm, Counsellor Publishing

> http://www.counsellorpublishing.com/images/BiblicalArchaeologyDiscove...

So does the ruins of Troy mean that Zeus exists?

[Counsellor Publishing]

Is there a book purported to be from Zeus that mentions Troy as a
contemporary city?

[Neil Kelsey]

On Feb 28, 5:49 pm, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Is there a book purported to be from Zeus that mentions Troy as a
> contemporary city?

Why, do you think that books purported to be from deities actually
*are* from dieties?

Question for non-delusional people - what does he mean by "from" in
the context of his sentence here? If the Bible is "from" God, does
that mean God wrote it? Because we know he didn't. Does "from" mean
that mean that God dictated the Bible to a bunch of writers, some of
whom were edited out by Constantine? I have a few dozen problems
believing that. Someone please translate...

> On Feb 28, 4:19 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_m_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 28, 4:17 pm, Counsellor Publishing
>
> > <counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Lost Civillization under the Persian Gulf
>
> > >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101208151609.htm
>
> > > More biblical archaeology discoveries
>
> > >http://www.counsellorpublishing.com/images/BiblicalArchaeologyDiscove...
>

> > So does the ruins of Troy mean that Zeus exists?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Counsellor Publishing]

That is the question. If a book s purported to be from a deity and is
credible based on quality of internal/external evidence, then I may
want to consider it.

[Neil Kelsey]

On Mar 1, 8:35 am, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That is the question. If a book s purported to be from a deity and is
> credible based on quality of internal/external evidence, then I may
> want to consider it.

How do you reconcile the Bible purportedly being "from" God with the
fact that we know it was written by various people?

> On Feb 28, 6:06 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_m_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 28, 5:49 pm, Counsellor Publishing
>
> > <counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Is there a book purported to be from Zeus that mentions Troy as a
> > > contemporary city?
>
> > Why, do you think that books purported to be from deities actually
> > *are* from dieties?
>
> > Question for non-delusional people - what does he mean by "from" in
> > the context of his sentence here? If the Bible is "from" God, does
> > that mean God wrote it? Because we know he didn't. Does "from" mean
> > that mean that God dictated the Bible to a bunch of writers, some of
> > whom were edited out by Constantine? I have a few dozen problems
> > believing that. Someone please translate...> On Feb 28, 4:19 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_m_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 28, 4:17 pm, Counsellor Publishing
>
> > > > <counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Lost Civillization under the Persian Gulf
>
> > > > >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101208151609.htm
>
> > > > > More biblical archaeology discoveries
>
> > > > >http://www.counsellorpublishing.com/images/BiblicalArchaeologyDiscove...
>
> > > > So does the ruins of Troy mean that Zeus exists?- Hide quoted text -
>

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Observer]

On Mar 1, 8:35 am, Counsellor Publishing
<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:

> That is the question. If a book s purported to be from a deity and is
> credible based on quality of internal/external evidence, then I may
> want to consider it.

Observer
And just what book would that be? The primitive superstitious filth,
emanating from a primitive and disparate group of uneducated men who
placed political expediency ahead of any nearness of truth, is
scarcely a candidate for such as consideration, save as a study in
abhorrent psychology and mythological nonsense.

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha !

Psychonomist

[Counsellor Publishing]

Yes, the apostles were uneducated impoverished pacifists who claimed
to be eyewitnesses. We have the tombs of Caiaphas and Gamaliel, The
inscription of Pontius Pilate and the words of Tacitus confirming the
crucifixion of Jesus under Pilate.

[Neil Kelsey]

On Mar 1, 3:34 pm, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, the apostles were uneducated impoverished pacifists who claimed
> to be eyewitnesses. We have the tombs of Caiaphas and Gamaliel, The
> inscription of Pontius Pilate and the words of Tacitus confirming the
> crucifixion of Jesus under Pilate.

That is not evidence that he was resurrected three days later.

> > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Eris]

Inscription by Pontius Pilate

It reads:


Line One: TIBERIEUM,,

Line Two: (PON) TIUS

Line Three: (PRAEF) ECTUS IUDA (EAE)

This is the only known occurrence of the name
Pontius Pilate in any ancient inscription. Visitors
to Caesarea's theater today see a replica, the original
is in the Israel Museum in Jerusalem. It is interesting
as well that there have been a few bronze coins found
that were struck form 29-32 AD by Pontius Pilate.

Caiaphas

This ossuary appeared authentic and contained human remains.
An Aramaic inscription on the side was thought to read
"Joseph son of Caiaphas" and on the basis of this the bones
of an elder man were considered to belong to the High Priest Caiaphas.
Since the original discovery this identification has been challenged
by some scholars on various grounds, including the spelling of the
inscription, the lack of any mention of Caiaphas's status as High
Priest,
the plainness of the tomb (although the ossuary itself is as ornate
as might be expected from someone of his rank and family), and other
reasons.


Tacitus

AD 56 – AD 117

Gamaliel is mention in the Talmud. One would think the Talmud would be
a wonderful reference to your beloved lord and Saviour, but that darn
Papal Bull censoring it.

So what is your point?

On Mar 1, 6:34 pm, Counsellor Publishing

[Observer]

On Feb 28, 5:49 pm, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there a book purported to be from Zeus that mentions Troy as a
> contemporary city?

Observer

Purporting such does not make it so. It is all a load of shit!

Psychonomist

[Observer]

On Mar 1, 3:34 pm, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, the apostles were uneducated impoverished pacifists who claimed
> to be eyewitnesses.

Observer
They were undereducated in that they were thousands of years behind us
if understanding the universe , it's contents, it's inhabitants , the
interactions there-between and the consequences thereof. In short
extremely uneducated as relates to any thing important to human kind.
What was claimed for them is of no moment as such was simply
superstitious nonsense.

We have the tombs of Caiaphas and Gamaliel, The
> inscription of Pontius Pilate and the words of Tacitus confirming the
> crucifixion of Jesus under Pilate.

Observer
Not so, there is no item in the meticulous Roman records as to the
crucifixion of poor Jesus who was according to the myth executed for
crimes against the state.

As a matter of fact, it is unlikely that Jesus of the bible never
existed at all. But such matters not ,as he was no Christ and was just
a god fraud produced of the psychotic mind of Paul who never met him
and who and who borrowed legends from even more ancient superstitions
and claimed they all happened to this pore dumb slob.

It is all bullshit

http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/

[Timbo]

Well, first you have to believe. Then you just start writing what
comes to mind. God is the one making those things come to mind. But
first you have to believe that God is the one that is making those
things come to mind. It's the old believe and you shall receive. Try
Harry Potter, it works just as well. LOL Or talk in tongues if you
wish. The mind is a playground. Let that bitch roll.

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Feb 28, 8:49 pm, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there a book purported to be from Zeus that mentions Troy as a
> contemporary city?

Few, or no, books in the NT say that they are from Yahweh. Likewise,
no book says that it is from Zeus.

Humans can claim that this, that or the other book is from a god
whether Yahweh or Zeus.

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Mar 1, 11:35 am, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That is the question. If a book s purported to be from a deity and is
> credible based on quality of internal/external evidence, then I may
> want to consider it.

Very well, this book is from Zeus. If you find it credible, would you
too consider it to be from Zeus?
Philosophiæ Naturalis Principia Mathematica, Latin for "Mathematical
Principles of Natural Philosophy", often called the Principia
("Principles"), is a work in three books by Sir Isaac Newton, first
published 5 July 1687.

[TLC]

There is no such a thing as biblical archaeology. Unless, by that
one means archaeologists have proven beyond doubt that the bibles
history is only a myth and most of the main chararters and places in
its stories either never existed or were described inaccurately.

If Canaan and Judah were a Sky Fairy's country for its people, he
certainly had bad taste in presents!

[Bob T.]

On Mar 2, 1:23 am, Timbo <thcus...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> Well, first you have to believe.

Indeed, that is the secret to religious faith - believe first, think
second.

> Then you just start writing what
> comes to mind. God is the one making those things come to mind.

God isn't doing anything - you are the one who is writing whatever
comes to your mind. If you want to write erotica, I advise you to
"open your mind" to Aphrodite. The Christian God isn't sexy at all.

> But first you have to believe that God is the one that is making those
> things come to mind. It's the old believe and you shall receive. Try
> Harry Potter, it works just as well. LOL Or talk in tongues if you
> wish. The mind is a playground. Let that bitch roll.

Just don't open your mind to Voldemort, or you'll be in big trouble.

- Bob T

>
> On Feb 28, 9:06 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_m_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 28, 5:49 pm, Counsellor Publishing
>
> > <counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Is there a book purported to be from Zeus that mentions Troy as a
> > > contemporary city?
>
> > Why, do you think that books purported to be from deities actually
> > *are* from dieties?
>
> > Question for non-delusional people - what does he mean by "from" in
> > the context of his sentence here? If the Bible is "from" God, does
> > that mean God wrote it? Because we know he didn't. Does "from" mean
> > that mean that God dictated the Bible to a bunch of writers, some of
> > whom were edited out by Constantine? I have a few dozen problems
> > believing that. Someone please translate...
>
> > > On Feb 28, 4:19 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_m_kel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Feb 28, 4:17 pm, Counsellor Publishing
>
> > > > <counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > > Lost Civillization under the Persian Gulf
>
> > > > >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101208151609.htm
>
> > > > > More biblical archaeology discoveries
>
> > > > >http://www.counsellorpublishing.com/images/BiblicalArchaeologyDiscove...
>
> > > > So does the ruins of Troy mean that Zeus exists?- Hide quoted text -
>

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Counsellor Publishing]

The Talmud was compiled centuries after Christ.
Why would it exclude mention of Christ other than say he is sitting in
hell in boiling excrement? I wonder.
You agree with the existence of Pilate.
Gamaliel knew Peter and John so his family tomb is relevant.
Tacitus mention of Chrestus as executed under Pilate is important
because he is anti-Christian, had access to Roman journals, and his
mention corroborates the biblical text.
Witnesses of the resurrection? The biblical writers. Why would the
Jews not record it? I wonder.

[thea]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Counsellor Publishing <counsellor...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Talmud was compiled centuries after Christ.
Why would it exclude mention of Christ other than say he is sitting in
hell in boiling excrement? I wonder.
You agree with the existence of Pilate.
Gamaliel knew Peter and John so his family tomb is relevant.
Tacitus mention of Chrestus as executed under Pilate is important
because he is anti-Christian, had access to Roman journals, and his
mention corroborates the biblical text.
Witnesses of the resurrection? The biblical writers. Why would the
Jews not record it? I wonder.

Because the Jews according to Romans 1:21 were not Thankful, and therefore
were being *set aisde* so salvation could come to both Gentiles and Israel.



 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
To post to this group, send email to atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.

[Counsellor Publishing]

Very interesting stuff here too http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Christ

On Mar 1, 6:40 pm, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Eris]

Using Occam's razor we come up with Jesus did not exist, is why no one
wrote anything about this amazing miracle worker and rabble rouser
from 1 CE to 33 CE

I think Tacitus was relying on stories he had been told and not an eye
witness account.

On Mar 2, 10:25 am, Counsellor Publishing

[Walt]

Yea, but people are weird. In the period 700 - 1000 AD the two
leading civilizations in the Mediterranean basin where the Byzantines
and the Arabs. The Byzantines were nominally derived from Rome but
spoke more Greek than Latin, and had many cultural ties to classical
Greek civilization. The Arabs had little or no connection to
classical Greek civilization. Yet it was the Arabs who preserved a
much bigger share of the writings of classical Greek civilizations,
many of which were lost in the original Greek but were only preserved
as Arabic translations. The point being, it can be very surprising
what information people choose to preserve from the past.

[Art Grey]

Hi Counsellor,
good post,
also:
"According to marine scientists in India, archaeological remains of
this lost city have been discovered 36 metres (120 feet) underwater in
the Gulf of Cambay off the western coast of India."
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/announce/oldcity.htm

also Josephus, an official historian of the Roman Emperors
Titus and Vespasian chronicles Jesus and Pontius Pilate.

Along with Roman philospher Justin Martyr who refers to
the "records of Pontius Pilate" although these records
are no longer available. Also Quadratus, bishop of Athens,
reported to the Roman Emperor Hadrian, c.125, that he had
personally talked to those earlier who had been living at the
time of the life, crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Polycarp and Ignatius are two more prominent Christian
but non-Jewish believers who talked to John the Apostle
of the events of Jesus Christ and wrote of this.

altogether, there are thousands of early copies of the
accounts of the 4 gospels and the letters of Paul and
other early leaders in the generation just after Christ.
but before the destruction of the Jewish Temple in
Jerusalem by Titus in 70 AD.

and
The first physical evidence relating to Pilate was discovered in 1961,
when a block of limestone was found in the Roman theatre at Caesarea
Maritima, the capital of the province of Iudaea, bearing a damaged
dedication by Pilate of a Tiberieum.[8] This dedication states that he
was [...]ECTVS IUDA[...] (usually read as praefectus iudaeae), that
is, prefect/governor of Iudaea. The early governors of Iudaea were of
prefect rank, the later were of procurator rank, beginning with
Cuspius Fadus in 44 AD.

This inscription was discovered in Caesarea (Israel) by a group led by
Antonio Frova and has been dated to 26-37 AD. Currently the
inscription is housed in the Israel Museum, Jerusalem.[9]

On Feb 28, 4:17 pm, Counsellor Publishing
<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:

> http://www.counsellorpublishing.com/images/BiblicalArchaeologyDiscove...

[Counsellor Publishing]

Jesus was a poor rabbi executed as a rebel against Rome. Yet we have
more about his life than any other of the period, written by poor
uneducated pacifist followers who died claiming they saw him alive 3
days after his death.

[Counsellor Publishing]

Tactitus was likely relying in Roman annals, and he is credible
because he hated christians.

On Mar 2, 7:41 am, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Steve in Virginia]

Would you Christians please read goddamn Tacitus before spouting off
about what it says. I wish I had a dollar...

Tacitus is commenting about the burning of a section of Rome, in July
of 64 AD. Many suspected that Nero wanted to build a new imperial
palace and set that portion of the city ablaze for 6 days. Nero
blamed the Christians, however many at the time suspected it was
Nero's decision. Tacitus merely references the Christians as the
followers of Chrixtus, a man reported to have been executed during the
reign of Tiberius. Period. The Annals were written in 116 AD; Tacitus
is referring, via an anecdotal account, to an event that occurred over
85 years before.

The point: the fact that New York City exists doesn't make the
Fantastic Four real. Nor does the existence of jelly beans
substantiates the reality of the Easter Bunny.

Steve

On Mar 1, 6:34 pm, Counsellor Publishing

[Eris]

Which makes Nazi historians credible about Jewish history?

On Mar 2, 6:18 pm, Counsellor Publishing

[Eris]

Like who ? The earliest writings about the mythical Jesus of Nazareth
are dated 70-100 CE. Nothing from 0-33 CE.

On Mar 2, 6:17 pm, Counsellor Publishing

[Eris]

Is there anything that even remotely substantiates that a divine being
walked this earth from 1-33 CE? Anything. Did Jesus of Nazareth meet
any of the criteria the Jews specified? Any documents from 1-33 CE
describing him or his deeds? Anything. The fact that Pontius Pilot or
the high priest existed does not prove anything about Someone named
Jesus.

Note the Romans were noted for their unusual cruelty to everyone.
Pontius Pilot was the only Roman ever censured by the senate for being
overly cruel. But he is nice to Jesus. Go figure.


On Mar 1, 6:34 pm, Counsellor Publishing

[Art Grey]

Hi Steve,

Ok, just for the record, let's quote Tacitus, since you are implying
that we are misquoting him so here is from Wikipedia.

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and
inflicted the most exquisite punishments on a class hated for their
disgraceful acts, called Chrestians by the populace. Christ, from whom
the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty (i.e.,
Crucifixion) during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our
procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition,
thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the
first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous
and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become
popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded
guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was
convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred
against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths.
Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished,
or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to
serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.[5][6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

On Mar 2, 5:04 pm, Steve in Virginia <chandler2...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Would you Christians please read goddamn Tacitus before spouting off
> about what it says.  I wish I had a dollar...
>
> Tacitus is commenting about the burning of a section of Rome, in July
> of 64 AD.  Many suspected that Nero wanted to build a new imperial
> palace and set that portion of the city ablaze for 6 days.  Nero
> blamed the Christians, however many at the time suspected it was
> Nero's decision.  Tacitus merely references the Christians as the
> followers of Chrixtus, a man reported to have been executed during the
> reign of Tiberius. Period.  The Annals were written in 116 AD; Tacitus
> is referring, via an anecdotal account, to an event that occurred over
> 85 years before.

Tacitus probably had access to Pontius Pilate's records
that were referred to by Justin Martyr, a philosopher
of Rome, who lived about the same time as Tacitus.

"It seems that St Justin had property, studied philosophy, converted
to Christianity, and devoted the rest of his life to teaching what he
upon and after his conversion had come to regard as the true
philosophy, still regularly wearing his philosopher's gown, thereby
indicating publicly that he had attained to the professorial level in
philosophy, the discipline of acquisition and inculcation of wisdom
and knowledge of truth."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Martyr

also:
"Now there is a village in the land of the Jews,
about 35 stadia from Jerusalem, in which
Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain
also from the registers of the taxing made
under Cyrenius, your first procurator in
Judea." First apology, 34, Justin Martyr

[Walt]

On Mar 2, 11:26 pm, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Is there anything that even remotely substantiates that a divine being
> walked this earth from 1-33 CE? Anything. Did Jesus of Nazareth meet
> any of the criteria the Jews specified? Any documents from 1-33 CE
> describing him or his deeds? Anything. The fact that Pontius Pilot or
> the high priest existed does not prove anything about Someone named
> Jesus.
>
> Note the Romans were noted for their unusual cruelty to everyone.
> Pontius Pilot was the only Roman ever censured by the senate for being
> overly cruel. But he is nice to Jesus. Go figure.

Once the Romans made Christianity the official religion of the Empire,
it had to be embarrassing they had whacked Jesus. Hard not to the
think they didn't massage the Gospels to throw blame of the Jews, and
to have Jesus telling Pilot it was above his pay grade to stop the
crucifixion.

[Counsellor Publishing]

Look up the "Son of God scroll" among those of the Dead Sea. The sole
reference to "Son of the Most High" outside the gospel accounts allows
us to conclude the earliest date for the gospel accounts.

[Counsellor Publishing]

Yes actually. If the Nazi's wrote something that corroborate the
Jewish version of history, this would lend credibility to the Jewish
account.
Daniel Keeran, MA (history)

[Counsellor Publishing]

The point is that the history by Tactitus corroborates the gospel
record on the execution of Christus under Pilate. Tacitus must have
had access to the Roman annals of Judea in order for him to mention it
in his history.
Daniel Keeran, MA (history)

On Mar 2, 5:04 pm, Steve in Virginia <chandler2...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[thea]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Counsellor Publishing <counsellor...@gmail.com> wrote:

Jesus was a poor rabbi executed as a rebel against Rome. Yet we have
more about his life than any other of the period, written by poor
uneducated pacifist followers who died claiming they saw him alive 3
days after his death.

St. Paul was very well educated, and most of the NT is written by his hand.
And, St. Paul is the apostle to the Gentiles (us).

On Mar 2, 7:41 am, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Using Occam's razor we come up with Jesus did not exist, is why no one
> wrote anything about this amazing miracle worker and rabble rouser
> from 1 CE to 33 CE
>
> I think Tacitus was relying on stories he had been told and not an eye
> witness account.
>
> On Mar 2, 10:25 am, Counsellor Publishing<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The Talmud was compiled centuries after Christ.
> > Why would it exclude mention of Christ other than say he is sitting in

[Eris]

So what you are saying is the Christ the Messiah is an oral tradition
without any actual eye witness accounts.

If God existed, it would be pretty obvious wouldn't it?

On Mar 3, 3:06 pm, Counsellor Publishing

[Steve in Virginia]

Or Tacitus may be simply referring to the commonly known Christian
mythology much the same way people today in the USA refer to the
George Washington tossing a coin across the Potomac. There is no
evidence that Tacitus had access to Roman archival records from Judea
under Pontius Pilate. And lets not forget that particular passage
comes down to us from an 11th century copy from a Christian scribe,
and not from any original source documents from the 2nd century A.D.

Steve

On Mar 3, 3:06 pm, Counsellor Publishing

[karlajkitty]

On Mar 2, 3:37 pm, Art Grey <artgreyda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Counsellor,
> good post,
> also:
> "According to marine scientists in India, archaeological remains of
> this lost city have been discovered 36 metres (120 feet) underwater in
> the Gulf of Cambay off the western coast of India."http://www.spiritofmaat.com/announce/oldcity.htm
>


> also Josephus, an official historian of the Roman Emperors
> Titus and Vespasian chronicles Jesus and Pontius Pilate.
>

Are you referring to the thief named Jesus that Josephus writes about,
or to the well known FORGERY referred to as the "Testimonium
Flavianum"?

> Snip other nonsensical non-evidence>

[Steve in Virginia]

No, I didn't say misquoting. Apparently, reading comprehension never
enters the equation.

Steve

[TLC]

Let's get this right? Firstly, you have this guy, who a king kills
all the male babies of his country for who are of this guys age to
stop this guy being around and he has a magic star shining over the
place where he was born and no one at the time thinks it's worth
writing about?

Secondly, the guy grows up and has a following of thousands, as he
goes about raising the dead, spitting in blind peoples faces to cure
blindness, curing leprosy and other nasty illnesses, while feeding his
thousands of followers with food made by magic and AGAIN, no one at
the time thinks it's worth writing about?

Then the guy gets crucified and killed, but he gets up from being dead
and causes an earthquake and other jewish saints get out of their
graves and walk about the main town. And AGAIN, no one at the time
thinks it's worth writing about?

So, seemingly this guy either caused mass illiteracy amongst the
people of his time, or he did not exist!

But, to quibble about what was on a hundreds of years old copy of
Tacitus that may have mentioned this guy, well, it's ridiculous, when
none of the christians in the first centuries ever mentioned Tacitus
to prove their myth guy ever did exist!











On Mar 3, 8:06 pm, Counsellor Publishing

> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Eris]

The populace was so overwhelmed by the magnitute of this god man that
they forgot to write anything?
Most of the Jews could read and write.

[Art Grey]

Hi karlajkitty and all,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
"Josephus (c.37 – 100, also known as Yosef ben Matityahu, Hebrew יוסף
בן מתתיהו, Joseph son of Matthias) was a renowned 1st-century Jewish
historian.
Despite being a Roman apologist, his writings are considered
authoritative and provide an important historical and cultural
background for the era described in the New Testament. Books 18 to 20
of the Antiquities are the most important in this regard. [2] Josephus
was fluent in Aramaic and Hebrew."

"Josephus writes of a Jewish sect led by James the Just, whom he calls
the brother of Jesus. Josephus' history includes sections on John the
Baptist, the High Priest Annas, Pontius Pilate, and Jesus called the
Messiah."

"In those parts of the Testimonium that are commonly regarded as
authentic, Josephus describes Jesus as a teacher and miracle worker,
attracting a large following who revered him after his death; but,
other than James, Josephus names none of the founders of the Church
such as St. Paul, St.Peter or any the Twelve Apostles, nor does he
refer to basic Christian doctrines, such as the Virgin Birth, the
Incarnation or the Atonement."

[Art Grey]

Hi Eris and TLC,

Jesus was written of the Jews in the
following ancient writings of the
Talmud:

One Babylonian edition states
that "on the eve of Passover,
they hanged Yeshu".

In another Talmud edition:
"....they hanged him.
It was different for Jesus for
he was near to the Kingship."
3rd Century Ammora.

In another Talmudic reference,
"Yeshu had 5 disciples, Matti...."

Which may be a reference to Matthew

Jesus is called Ben Pantere or
Ben Pandera which means "son
of the leopard" by Jews in mockery
of his claim to be a son of a virgin.
Wilbur Smith quoting Jewish scholar
Joseph Klausner in Jesus of Nazareth.

[Eris]

hi Art Gray

This was interesting http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera.
For over two thousand years people have been searching for proof of
Jesus's existance.
They would have found it by now, would they have not?

[Eris]

I found this interesting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_the_Talmud

On Mar 4, 3:38 pm, Art Grey <artgreyda...@hotmail.com> wrote:

[Counsellor Publishing]

There is abundant evidence, but for those who wish to not accept it,
no evidence will suffice.

On Mar 4, 1:15 pm, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hi Art Gray
>

> This was interestinghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera.

[Bob T.]

On Mar 4, 1:23 pm, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:

> There is abundant evidence, but for those who wish to not accept it,
> no evidence will suffice.

There is no actual evidence, but for those who wish to believe it, a
complete lack of evidence will suffice.

- Bob T

[Eris]

There is always abundant evidence, for those who want to believe.
If God existed it would be obvious to everyone.

On Mar 4, 4:23 pm, Counsellor Publishing

[Eris]

good one Bob, I should have read yours before posting mine,

[Bob T.]

On Mar 4, 2:59 pm, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:

> good one Bob, I should have read yours before posting mine,

No matter. Next time your quip will be funnier than mine.

- Bob T

>
> On Mar 4, 4:38 pm, "Bob T." <b...@synapse-cs.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 4, 1:23 pm, Counsellor Publishing
>
> > <counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > There is abundant evidence, but for those who wish to not accept it,
> > > no evidence will suffice.
>
> > There is no actual evidence, but for those who wish to believe it, a
> > complete lack of evidence will suffice.
>

> > - Bob T- Hide quoted text -

[karlajkitty]

On Mar 4, 4:15 pm, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hi Art Gray
>

> This was interestinghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiberius_Iulius_Abdes_Pantera.

> For over two thousand years people have been searching for proof of
> Jesus's existance.
> They would have found it by now, would they have not?
>

Excellent link. Thank you for that one.

[Counsellor Publishing]

The fact remains that shortly after Christ, we have an anti-Christian
Roman historian corroborating the Christian gospel.

[Counsellor Publishing]

Yes and it was the Jews who wrote the New Testament and claimed to be
eyewitnesses of the miracles and claims of this Jesus.

On Mar 4, 9:48 am, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Eris]

Perhaps it was Bob Christus not Jesus Christus. We just don't know, do
we?

Many things are corroborated in the Bible, mostly historical events.
The earth is flat and has corners is not corroborated nor is the sun
orbiting the earth. Babies are not concieved in filth and women don't
really have to go into the desert and squat over a hole while
menustrating anymore do they.

There is nothing in the first century writing that would lead one to
believe someone "Special" was walking around. The only reason we are
christian today is Emporor Constatine realize the value of having
subjects act like sheep and fish.

On Mar 4, 9:55 pm, Counsellor Publishing

[Steve in Virginia]

Tacitus does not corroborate the gospels.

On Mar 4, 9:55 pm, Counsellor Publishing

[Trance Gemini]

On Fri, Mar 4, 2011 at 9:55 PM, Counsellor Publishing <counsellor...@gmail.com> wrote:

The fact remains that shortly after Christ, we have an anti-Christian
Roman historian corroborating the Christian gospel.

Not exactly. CP.

What you had, in the parts which were not considered suspicious enhancements likely made by Eusebius, were a reference to a leader of the Christus Sect who was crucified because the Romans considered him a troublemaker.

Not much else.

Now, of course, it stands to reason that the Christus had a leader whether Josephus wrote about it or not.

And it stands to reason that the Christus existed because without them the massive numbers of biblical documents (not just those in currently accepted "bible") wouldn't exist.

However, since Josephus wrote about the crucifixion 100 years after the fact, all he was doing was repeating the stories the Christians were telling about Jesus.

None of that supports any of the biblical claims about Jesus as being true, particularly in the context of looking at the entire collection of biblical texts, not just your favorite ones.

Either way, there are too many contradictions in Jesus story as written in those texts to be able to establish any consistent historicity.

Had a historian of the day written about Jesus first hand, that would have been a different story.

Although personally, I would be willing to accept that the leader of the Christus was actually crucified. It's the rest of it that's a little hard to buy.

Now if you're so willing to accept biblical testimony as being true at face value, do you also accept the Gospel of Judas as being true and hold it's historical value at the same level as the parts of the Bible you accept?

IMO, you can't out of hand reject all of the other biblical transcripts like the Gnostic texts or the more controversial texts like the Gospels of Thomas, Mary Magdalene and Judas if you expect people to accept the historicity of the one's you happen to like and which happen to agree with your particular belief system.

--

"It is thus offensive and disgraceful for an unbeliever to hear a Christian talk nonsense about such things, claiming that what he is saying is based in Scripture. We should do all that we can to avoid such an embarrassing situation, lest the unbeliever see only ignorance in the Christian and laugh to scorn."  -- Augustine

[TLC]

Counsellor Publishing,

I'd like to point out, like Steve did, that Tacitus did not
corroborate the gospels, nor jesus.

In 2008, Dr. Ida Giovanna Rao, the head of the Laurentian Library's
manuscript office, repeated a previous study done by Dr. Teresa Lodi
and concluded that it is likely that the 'i' is a correction of some
earlier character (like an e), the change being made an extremely
subtle one.

Later the same year, it was discovered that under ultraviolet light,
an 'e' is clearly visible in the space, meaning that the passage must
originally have referred to chrestianos, a Latinized Greek word which
could be interpreted as the good, after the Greek word (chrestos),
meaning 'good, useful'. But, was also a Greek name.

So, you just have a total of about 5 vague sentences about the early
Christians and some guy named "Chrestus" who was causing a lot of
trouble from Josephus, Tacitus and Seutonius and Seutonius writes:

According to the text: "because the Jews at Rome caused continuous
disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he expelled them from the
city." "He" is Emperor Claudius. He came to power in 41 AD. If this
"instigator" is to be identified as Jesus ("Christ"), then either
Suetonius has an incorrect date or the generally accepted date of the
crucifixion (around 30 AD) is wrong.

Unfortunately, most of our Classical texts come to us through the
monasteries. We don't have the originals, nor even contemporary
copies. What we have are texts copied out, corrected, amended, and
commented on by medieval monks. Even if "Chrestus" was not
"Christus", the medieval copyists would almost certainly have changed
the text, on the supposition that it was.






On Mar 5, 2:57 am, Counsellor Publishing

[Counsellor Publishing]

Tacitus talks about the Christians then refers to their leader
Christus executed in Judea under Pilate. This can be none other that
the Christ of the gospel eyewitness authors.

[Bob T.]

On Mar 5, 7:17 am, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Tacitus talks about the Christians then refers to their leader
> Christus executed in Judea under Pilate. This can be none other that
> the Christ of the gospel eyewitness authors.

Similarly, when Harry Potter and his friends refer to "He who must not
be named", this can be none other than Lord Voldemort.

- Bob T

>
> On Mar 4, 7:04 pm, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Perhaps it was Bob Christus not Jesus Christus. We just don't know, do
> > we?
>
> > Many things are corroborated in the Bible, mostly historical events.
> > The earth is flat and has corners is not corroborated nor is the sun
> > orbiting the earth. Babies are not concieved in filth and women don't
> > really have to go into the desert and squat over a hole while
> > menustrating   anymore do they.
>
> > There is nothing in the first century writing that would lead one to
> > believe someone "Special" was walking around. The only reason we are
> > christian today is Emporor Constatine realize the value of having
> > subjects act like sheep and fish.
>
> > On Mar 4, 9:55 pm, Counsellor Publishing<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The fact remains that shortly after Christ, we have an anti-Christian

> > > Roman historian corroborating the Christian gospel.- Hide quoted text -

[Counsellor Publishing]

Tactitus (55-117 CE) most certainly corroborates the gospel accounts
as he refers to Christus who was executed under Pontius Pilate,
procurator of Judea.

Here are his exquisite words:

"Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most
exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called
Christians [Chrestians] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name
had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of

Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and
a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again

broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even

in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the

world find their centre and become popular."

[Bob T.]

On Mar 5, 7:23 am, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tactitus (55-117 CE) most certainly corroborates the gospel accounts
> as he refers to  Christus who was executed under Pontius Pilate,
> procurator of Judea.
>
> Here are his exquisite words:
>
> "Nero fastened the guilt of starting the blaze and inflicted the most
> exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called
> Christians [Chrestians] by the populace. Christus, from whom the name
> had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of
> Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and
> a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again
> broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even
> in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the
> world find their centre and become popular."

You're right! It says right there, in black and white, that
Christianity is a "superstition". Can't argue with that!

- Bob T

>
> On Mar 4, 8:43 pm, Steve in Virginia <chandler2...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Tacitus does not corroborate the gospels.
>
> > On Mar 4, 9:55 pm, Counsellor Publishing<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The fact remains that shortly after Christ, we have an anti-Christian

> > > Roman historian corroborating the Christian gospel.- Hide quoted text -

[Art Grey]

Hi Eris,

Does this refer to Jesus Christ? You decide.

"The master said: Jesus the Nazarene practiced magic and deceived and
led Israel astray"

So basically the Jews said as little as
possible about Jesus and even their
own destroyed temple. For example,

"The Jerusalem Talmud does not cover the Mishnaic order of Kodashim,
which deals with sacrificial rites and laws pertaining to the Temple,
while the Babylonian Talmud does cover it. It is not clear why this
is, as the laws were not directly applicable in either country
following the Temple's 70 CE destruction."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Talmud

[thea]

On Sat, Mar 5, 2011 at 12:46 PM, Art Grey <artgre...@hotmail.com> wrote:

Hi Eris,

Does this refer to Jesus Christ? You decide.

"The master said: Jesus the Nazarene practiced magic and deceived and
led Israel astray"

So basically the Jews said as little as
possible about Jesus and even their
own destroyed temple. For example,

"The Jerusalem Talmud does not cover the Mishnaic order of Kodashim,
which deals with sacrificial rites and laws pertaining to the Temple,
while the Babylonian Talmud does cover it. It is not clear why this
is, as the laws were not directly applicable in either country
following the Temple's 70 CE destruction."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem_Talmud

The High Priest thoroughly understood that Jesus had to die to redeem mankind.
It was prophesied in the OT, and they knew what had to happen.
However, I know that according to St. Paul, Israel did not understand that
the gospel of the Grace of God would be offered to the Gentiles.
They did not understand that because *they were not thankful* Romans 1:21
that they would be *set aside* that God could present Grace to all of
humankind.
 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Atheism vs Christianity" group.
To post to this group, send email to atheism-vs-...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to atheism-vs-christ...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/atheism-vs-christianity?hl=en.

[Counsellor Publishing]

All honest and sincere seekers will know the import of Tacitus.

[Eris]

Perhaps to you it does, but to others not so much.

On Mar 5, 10:17 am, Counsellor Publishing

[Eris]

Just off the top of my head

1. Jesus Did Not Fulfill the Messianic Prophecies
What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he
will:
Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression,
suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword
against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite
humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on
that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then
he cannot be "The Messiah."
Because no one has ever fulfilled the Bible's description of this
future King, Jews still await the coming of the Messiah. All past
Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and
Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.
Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming,
but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies
outright; in the Bible no concept of a second coming exists.
____________________
2) Jesus Did Not Embody the Personal Qualifications of Messiah
A. Messiah as Prophet
The Messiah will become the greatest prophet in history, second only
to Moses. (Targum - Isaiah 11:2; Maimonides - Yad Teshuva 9:2)
Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a
majority of world Jewry, a situation which has not existed since 300
BCE. During the time of Ezra, when the majority of Jews refused to
move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last
prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
Jesus was not a prophet; he appeared on the scene approximately 350
years after prophecy had ended.
B. Descendent of David
According to Jewish sources, the Messiah will be born of human parents
and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not
be a demi-god, (1) nor will he possess supernatural qualities.
The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David
(see Genesis 49:10, Isaiah 11:1, Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel
34:23-24). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product
of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly
fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's
side from King David. (2)
C. Torah Observance
The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The
Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone
coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false
prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states
that its commandments are no longer applicable. For example, John 9:14
records that Jesus made a paste in violation of Shabbat, which caused
the Pharisees to say (verse 16), "He does not observe Shabbat!"
____________________
3) Mistranslated Verses "Referring" to Jesus
Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew
text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.
A. Virgin Birth
The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in
Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has
always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries
later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with
the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.
B. Suffering Servant
Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the
"suffering servant."
In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52,
describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The
prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews
("Israel") are regarded as one unit. Throughout Jewish scripture,
Israel is repeatedly called, in the singular, the "Servant of
God" (see Isaiah 43:8). In fact, Isaiah states no less than 11 times
in the chapters prior to 53 that the Servant of God is Israel. When
read correctly, Isaiah 53 clearly [and ironically] refers to the
Jewish people being "bruised, crushed and as sheep brought to
slaughter" at the hands of the nations of the world. These
descriptions are used throughout Jewish scripture to graphically
describe the suffering of the Jewish people (see Psalm 44). Isaiah 53
concludes that when the Jewish people are redeemed, the nations will
recognize and accept responsibility for the inordinate suffering and
death of the Jews.
______________________
4) Jewish Belief is Based Solely on National Revelation
Throughout history, thousands of religions have been started by
individuals, attempting to convince people that he or she is God's
true prophet. But personal revelation is an extremely weak basis for a
religion because one can never know if it is indeed true. Since others
did not hear God speak to this person, they have to take his word for
it. Even if the individual claiming personal revelation performs
miracles, there is still no verification that he is a genuine prophet.
Miracles do not prove anything. All they show -- assuming they are
genuine -- is that he has certain powers. It has nothing to do with his
claim of prophecy.
Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not
rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact,
the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to
charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).
Of the thousands of religions in human history, only Judaism bases its
belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire
nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell
everyone, not just one person.
Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):
The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the
miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing
miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles
were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed
by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as
proof of his prophecy.
What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount
Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not
dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God
spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this
covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive
today." (Deut. 5:3)
Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of
every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago.
For further reading: "Did God Speak at Mount Sinai?"

http://www.aish.com/jw/s/48892792.html

On Mar 5, 10:23 am, Counsellor Publishing

[TLC]

Counsellor Publishing and co,

Don't christians like you feel more than pathetic, in that the only
slight jot of proof you have for your Sky Fairy jesus can only be
obtained by rubbishing through falsified translations and later
additions to documents by early christian apologists?

The most important fact is, Tacitus wasn't born until 55 AD and didn't
write Annals until 117 AD. In no way is he an eyewitness of Jesus.
Anything he has to say about Jesus (whom he didn't even name) would be
thrown out of any decent history book for being nothing more that a
sects opinion based on hearsay, or just more of christianity's edited
lies!

Eusebius in the 4th Century does not make mention of the Tacitus
quotes. Neither does Origen in the famous debate with Celsus even
earlier. That these early Christian writers do not make mention of the
writings of Tacitus which were surely available to them, especially
Origen in his famous responsa and defense of the "reality" of Jesus -
where he also didn't cite the Testamonium Flavianum or any of the
other extra-biblical sources for Jesus often cited by apologists -
should be more than enough evidence to submit that these are latter
day pious frauds.

Don't any of you christian fanatics find it strange that you believe
in an all powerfull and magical Sky Fairy jesus, who wants you to tell
all about him, but leaves not one jot of written evidence by him, or
writings about him are done untill years after he is dead?

But, I suppose evidence isn't important for brain washed believers in
imaginary, invisible beings, just as long as you call them Jesus you
won't be put in a mental hospital!








On Mar 5, 9:26 pm, Counsellor Publishing

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[karlajkitty]

On Mar 4, 3:07 pm, Art Grey <artgreyda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Hi karlajkitty and all,
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
> "Josephus (c.37 – 100, also known as Yosef ben Matityahu, Hebrew יוסף
> בן מתתיהו, Joseph son of Matthias) was a renowned 1st-century Jewish
> historian.
> Despite being a Roman apologist, his writings are considered
> authoritative and provide an important historical and cultural
> background for the era described in the New Testament. Books 18 to 20
> of the Antiquities are the most important in this regard. [2] Josephus
> was fluent in Aramaic and Hebrew."
>
> "Josephus writes of a Jewish sect led by James the Just, whom he calls
> the brother of Jesus. Josephus' history includes sections on John the
> Baptist, the High Priest Annas, Pontius Pilate, and Jesus called the
> Messiah."
>
> "In those parts of the Testimonium that are commonly regarded as
> authentic, Josephus describes Jesus as a teacher and miracle worker,
> attracting a large following who revered him after his death; but,
> other than James, Josephus names none of the founders of the Church
> such as St. Paul, St.Peter or any the Twelve Apostles, nor does he
> refer to basic Christian doctrines, such as the Virgin Birth, the
> Incarnation or the Atonement."
>
> On Mar 3, 10:09 pm, karlajkitty <white.ka...@insightbb.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mar 2, 3:37 pm, Art Grey <artgreyda...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Hi Counsellor,
> > > good post,
> > > also:
> > > "According to marine scientists in India, archaeological remains of
> > > this lost city have been discovered 36 metres (120 feet) underwater in
> > > the Gulf of Cambay off the western coast of India."http://www.spiritofmaat.com/announce/oldcity.htm
>
> > > also Josephus, an official historian of the Roman Emperors
> > > Titus and Vespasian chronicles Jesus and Pontius Pilate.
>
> > Are you referring to the thief named Jesus that Josephus writes about,
> > or to the well known FORGERY referred to as the "Testimonium
> > Flavianum"?
>
> > > Snip other nonsensical non-evidence>

Yes, Josephus mentions things about a lot of "charismatic" characters:

from the Encyclopedia Britannica:
"
...Josephus wrote a paragraph about Jesus (The Antiquities of the Jews
18.63ff.), as he did about Theudas, the Egyptian, and other
charismatic leaders (History of the Jewish War 2.258–263; The
Antiquities of the Jews 20.97–99, 167–172), but it has been heavily
revised by Christian scribes, and Josephus’s original remarks cannot
be discerned.
"

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/303091/Jesus-Christ/222994/Sources-for-the-life-of-Jesus#ref63172

[Counsellor Publishing]

No one claims Tacitus was an eyewitness but rather simply an early
anti-Christian Roman historian who corroborates the gospel record.

Christians - T
Atheists - 0

We win.

[Counsellor Publishing]

Why don't you start a new topic? It's a good one where Christians like
to camp.
Read Isaiah 53, then consider Jesus was a teacher of pacifism and
indeed the greatest prophet who died for the sins of the world and
rose from the grave.

[Bob T.]

On Mar 6, 6:35 am, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:

> No one claims Tacitus was an eyewitness but rather simply an early
> anti-Christian Roman historian who corroborates the gospel record.

But he didn't corroborate the gospel, he just observed that there were
Christian cultists around.

>
> Christians - T
> Atheists - 0
>
> We win.

Once again, a Christian uses imaginary numbers to keep score.
Typical.

[Eris]

Why not explain to us why Jesus did not fulfill the requirements for
the Messiah?
There is no eyewitness accounts of someone named Jesus doing anything
except winning consistently at poker in Vegas, Nevada.
Oral legends do not impress us.

On Mar 6, 9:39 am, Counsellor Publishing

[Eris]

Votre attention s'il vous plait
Achtung
Your Attention Please!


Conseiller Publishing a quitte le forum
Botschalftsrat Publishing hat das Forum verlassen
Counsellor Publishing has left the forum.

[TLC]

Counsellor Publishing and Co,

So, you now admit that there is not the slightest bit of evidence
proving a Jesus existed, after claiming erronously the old lie that,

"Tactitus corroborates the gospel record on the execution of Christus
under Pilate."

Now, can you explain to us how text which was altered, a few
generations later by in another country, by christians is proof of the
gospels or a crucifixion in Palestine?

In the "Annals" of Tacitus, the Roman historian, there is another
short passage which speaks of "Chrestus" as being the founder of a
party called Chrestianos -- a body of people "who were abhorred for
their crimes." These words occur in Tacitus' account of the burning of
Rome. The evidence for this passage is not much stronger than that for
the passage in Josephus. It was not quoted by any writer before the
fifteenth century; and when it was quoted, there was only one copy of
the "Annals" in the world; and that copy was supposed to have been
made in the eighth century -- six hundred years after Tacitus' death.
The "Annals" were published between 115 and 117 A.D., nearly a century
after Jesus' time -- so the passage, even if genuine, would not prove
anything as to Jesus.

Foreign Gospels, written by unknown men, in a foreign tongue, several
generations after the death of those who are supposed to have known
the facts--such is the evidence relied upon to prove that Jesus lived.


Atheists 9

Christians 0




On Mar 6, 2:35 pm, Counsellor Publishing

[Eris]

Remember when you were little and you asked your mother why? And she
replied because. Same mentality.

[Simon Ewins]

On Tuesday, March 1, 2011 11:35:37 AM UTC-5, Counsellor Publishing wrote:

That is the question. If a book s purported to be from a deity and is
credible based on quality of internal/external evidence, then I may
want to consider it.

So, if it is not credible you would not want to consider it?

Is it credible that God stopped the sun from revolving around the earth, even though the sun does not revolve around the earth?

Is it credible that dead men can come back to life after man days being dead?

Is it credible that a number of trumpets, at any frequency they are capable of, at the volume that their controllers are capable of can destroy brick walls?

Is it credible that donkeys can speak?

Is it credible that hares chew cud?

Is it credible that pi is equal to 3.000?

Is it credible that a non-physical (whatever that is) cause can generate a physical effect?

Is it credible that the creator of all things can not defeat an army with iron chariots?

The answer to all of the above is obviously, no.

So the Bible is not credible and is therefore not worth considering.

On Feb 28, 6:06 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_m...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On Feb 28, 5:49 pm, Counsellor Publishing
>
> <counsellor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Is there a book purported to be from Zeus that mentions Troy as a
> > contemporary city?
>
> Why, do you think that books purported to be from deities actually
> *are* from dieties?
>
> Question for non-delusional people - what does he mean by "from" in
> the context of his sentence here? If the Bible is "from" God, does
> that mean God wrote it? Because we know he didn't. Does "from" mean
> that mean that God dictated the Bible to a bunch of writers, some of
> whom were edited out by Constantine? I have a few dozen problems

> believing that. Someone please translate...> On Feb 28, 4:19 pm, Neil Kelsey <neil_m...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 28, 4:17 pm, Counsellor Publishing
>
> > > <counsellor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > Lost Civillization under the Persian Gulf
>
> > > >http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101208151609.htm
>
> > > > More biblical archaeology discoveries
>
> > > >http://www.counsellorpublishing.com/images/BiblicalArchaeologyDiscove...
>

> > > So does the ruins of Troy mean that Zeus exists?- Hide quoted text -

[Simon Ewins]

So, some old writers commented on some even older guy rumoured to have been crucified, during an age of superstition and unenlightenment -- and that therefore means that dead men can get up and walk through walls a few days after their death?

Gullibility runs amok.


On Thursday, March 3, 2011 2:30:29 PM UTC-5, Art Grey wrote:

Hi Steve,

Ok, just for the record, let's quote Tacitus, since you are implying
that we are misquoting him so here is from Wikipedia.

"Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and
inflicted the most exquisite punishments on a class hated for their
disgraceful acts, called Chrestians by the populace. Christ, from whom
the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty (i.e.,
Crucifixion) during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our

procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition,

thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judea, the

first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous

and shameful from every part of the world find their center and become
popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded
guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was
convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred
against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths.
Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished,
or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to
serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired.[5][6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

On Mar 2, 5:04 pm, Steve in Virginia <chandl...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Would you Christians please read goddamn Tacitus before spouting off
> about what it says.  I wish I had a dollar...
>
> Tacitus is commenting about the burning of a section of Rome, in July
> of 64 AD.  Many suspected that Nero wanted to build a new imperial
> palace and set that portion of the city ablaze for 6 days.  Nero
> blamed the Christians, however many at the time suspected it was
> Nero's decision.  Tacitus merely references the Christians as the
> followers of Chrixtus, a man reported to have been executed during the
> reign of Tiberius. Period.  The Annals were written in 116 AD; Tacitus
> is referring, via an anecdotal account, to an event that occurred over
> 85 years before.

Tacitus probably had access to Pontius Pilate's records
that were referred to by  Justin Martyr, a philosopher
of Rome, who lived about the same time as Tacitus.

"It seems that St Justin had property, studied philosophy, converted
to Christianity, and devoted the rest of his life to teaching what he
upon and after his conversion had come to regard as the true
philosophy, still regularly wearing his philosopher's gown, thereby
indicating publicly that he had attained to the professorial level in
philosophy, the discipline of acquisition and inculcation of wisdom
and knowledge of truth."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_Martyr

also:
"Now there is a village in the land of the Jews,
about 35 stadia from Jerusalem, in which
Jesus Christ was born, as you can ascertain
also from the registers of the taxing made
under Cyrenius, your first procurator in
Judea." First apology, 34, Justin Martyr

>
> The point: the fact that New York City exists doesn't make the
> Fantastic Four real. Nor does the existence of jelly beans
> substantiates the reality of the Easter Bunny.
>
> Steve
>

> On Mar 1, 6:34 pm, Counsellor Publishing

>
> <counsellor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Yes, the apostles were uneducated impoverished pacifists who claimed
> > to be eyewitnesses. We have the tombs of Caiaphas and Gamaliel, The
> > inscription of Pontius Pilate and the words of Tacitus confirming the
> > crucifixion of Jesus under Pilate.
>
> > On Mar 1, 12:21 pm, Observer <mayo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Mar 1, 8:35 am, Counsellor Publishing
>

> > > <counsellor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > That is the question. If a book s purported to be from a deity and is
> > > > credible based on quality of internal/external evidence, then I may
> > > > want to consider it.
>

> > > Observer
> > > And just what book would that be? The primitive superstitious filth,
> > > emanating from a primitive and disparate group of uneducated men who
> > > placed political expediency ahead of any nearness of truth, is
> > > scarcely a candidate  for such as consideration, save as a study in
> > > abhorrent psychology and mythological nonsense.
>
> > > Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha !
>
> > > Psychonomist
>

[Counsellor Publishing]

It's all of the above. Tacitus corroborates the gospel by his
reference to Christian cultists. It is precisely his bias that makes
his mention credible.

[Counsellor Publishing]

Start a new topic already dude

[Counsellor Publishing]

Left the forum? wishful thinking

On Mar 6, 8:07 pm, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Votre attention s'il vous plait
> Achtung
> Your Attention Please!
>
> Conseiller Publishing a quitte le forum
> Botschalftsrat Publishing hat das Forum verlassen
> Counsellor Publishing has left the forum.
>

[Drafterman]

On Mar 2, 6:17 pm, Counsellor Publishing
<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jesus was a poor rabbi executed as a rebel against Rome. Yet we have
> more about his life than any other of the period, written by poor
> uneducated pacifist followers who died claiming they saw him alive 3
> days after his death.

Which means what?

>
> On Mar 2, 7:41 am, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Using Occam's razor we come up with Jesus did not exist, is why no one
> > wrote anything about this amazing miracle worker and rabble rouser
> > from 1 CE to 33 CE
>
> > I think Tacitus was relying on stories he had been told and not an eye
> > witness account.
>
> > On Mar 2, 10:25 am, Counsellor Publishing<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > The Talmud was compiled centuries after Christ.
> > > Why would it exclude mention of Christ other than say he is sitting in- Hide quoted text -

[Art Grey]

Hi Eris,

actually, you have given a decent synopsis of what
we can expect to occur, perhaps with
the next generation.

Consider what has already happened
with regard to the restoration of the nation
of Israel starting in 1948 and the adding of
the city of Jerusalem in 1967 to Israel.
These are a partial fulfillment of prophecy
and the restored temple for the mount zion
area of Jerusalem is next on the agenda.

Isaiah 11:In that day the Lord will reach out his hand a second time
to reclaim the surviving remnant of his people from Assyria, from
Lower Egypt, from Upper Egypt, from Cush,[b] from Elam, from Babylonia,
[c] from Hamath and from the islands of the Mediterranean.

12 He will raise a banner for the nations
and gather the exiles of Israel;
he will assemble the scattered people of Judah
from the four quarters of the earth.
13 Ephraim’s jealousy will vanish,
and Judah’s enemies[d] will be destroyed;
Ephraim will not be jealous of Judah,
nor Judah hostile toward Ephraim.
14 They will swoop down on the slopes of Philistia to the west;
together they will plunder the people to the east.
They will subdue Edom and Moab,
and the Ammonites will be subject to them.
15 The LORD will dry up
the gulf of the Egyptian sea;
with a scorching wind he will sweep his hand
over the Euphrates River.

Most of this has already happened from Isaiah 11.

Perhaps only a few years after the next
temple of Jerusalem is rebuilt, we will see
some more dramatic events, but prior to
the building of the temple we may see
a huge attack against Israel by the Moslem
nations from the north in fulfillment of
Rev. 6, Ezekiel 38,39 and Joel 2. Stay tuned.

The recent political events of the Middle
East may be bringing us closer to the
fulfillment of even more prophecy.

On Mar 5, 1:58 pm, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:

[TLC]

Art Grey, and side-kick head-banger, Counsellor Publishing,

Why do christians never have the brains to understand JESUS FAILED TO
FULFILL ANY OF THE SIX AUTHENTIC
JEWISH MESSIANIC CRITERIA and will always be nothing more than a Greco/
Roman pagan god to Jews?

1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and
King Solomon,

2. be anointed King of Israel,

3. return the Jewish People to Israel,

4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem,

5. bring peace to the world and end all war,

6. bring knowledge of God to the world.

THE BIBLE'S MESSIANIC CRITERIA ARE EMPIRICALLY VERIFIABLE: "Faith" is
irrelevant to the Jewish concept of the Messiah ben David, because an
individual either fulfills these prophetic criteria or he doesn't.
Christianity requires faith that Jesus is their "messiah" precisely
because he didn't fulfill any of the Jewish messianic criteria.

Christianity's concept of faith in Jesus is therefore a substitute for
this defect. It is important to note that the fulfillment of each of
the six Jewish messianic criteria is empirically verifiable and
therefore no faith is required to determine the identity of the Jewish
Messiah ben David.

For example, the entire world will be able to observe that the Temple
has been rebuilt, the Jews have returned to Israel, the entire world
believes in God, and the world is at peace. Virtually none of the
Christian messianic "proofs" are empirically verifiable.

http://www.26reasons.com/reason8.html

> ...
>
> read more »- Hide quoted text -

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Mar 8, 7:54 am, TLC <tlc.tere...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Art Grey, and side-kick head-banger, Counsellor Publishing,
>
> Why do christians never have the brains to understand JESUS FAILED TO
> FULFILL ANY OF THE SIX AUTHENTIC
> JEWISH MESSIANIC CRITERIA and will always be nothing more than a Greco/
> Roman pagan god to Jews?

Were these criteria stated by Jews before Jesus was born or are these
modern criteria contrived for the specific purpose of refuting
Christianity?

[Eris]

They are as old as time itself my son.

On Mar 8, 8:17 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Mar 8, 9:54 am, Eris <vith...@gmail.com> wrote:
> They are as old as time itself my son.

Where is it documented that these criteria were stated by one or more
Jewish sects?

[Answer_42]

On Mar 2, 6:17 pm, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jesus was a poor rabbi executed as a rebel against Rome. Yet we have
> more about his life than any other of the period,

Bull, we know way more about Julius Cesar and Augustus then we do
about your Jesus.

> written by poor
> uneducated

How can an uneducated person write anything, seeing it takes education
to learn to write?

> pacifist followers who died claiming they saw him alive 3
> days after his death.

So?
Are you saying that each person that claims an alien probed his anus
is telling it like it happened?
___________________________________________________
The demise of our community and culture is the fault of sissified men
who have been overly influenced by women.
-- Tony Evans

[Answer_42]

On Mar 4, 12:36 am, Steve in Virginia <chandler2...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

> Or Tacitus may be simply referring to the commonly known Christian
> mythology much the same way people today in the USA refer to the
> George Washington tossing a coin across the Potomac.  There is no
> evidence that Tacitus had access to  Roman archival records from Judea
> under Pontius Pilate.  And lets not forget that particular passage
> comes down to us from an 11th century copy from a Christian scribe,
> and not from any original source documents from the 2nd century A.D.

Oh yes, let's forget that..., it is totally irrelevant...

<sigh>

[Art Grey]

Hi Answer,

"Tacitus used the official sources of the Roman state: the acta
senatus (the minutes of the session of the Senate) and the acta diurna
populi Romani (a collection of the acts of the government and news of
the court and capital). He read collections of emperors' speeches,
such as Tiberius and Claudius. Generally, Tacitus was a scrupulous
historian who paid careful attention to his historical works. The
minor inaccuracies in the Annals may be due to Tacitus dying before
finishing (and therefore proofreading) his work. He used a variety of
historical and literary sources; he used them freely and he chose from
sources of varied opinions.

Tacitus cites some of his sources directly, among them Cluvius Rufus,
Fabius Rusticus and Pliny the Elder, who had written Bella Germaniae
and a historical work which was the continuation of that of Aufidius
Bassus. Tacitus used some collections of letters (epistolarium) and
various notes. He also took information from exitus illustrium
virorum. These were a collection of books by those who were
antithetical to the emperors. They tell of the sacrifice of the martyr
to freedom, especially the men who committed suicide, following the
theory of the Stoics. While he placed no value on the Stoic theory of
suicide, Tacitus used accounts of famous suicides to give a dramatic
tone to his stories. These suicides seemed, to him, ostentatious and
politically useless; however, he gives prominence to the speeches of
some of those about to commit suicide, for example Cremutius Cordus'
speech in Ann. IV, 34-35."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus

[Counsellor Publishing]

A Christian scribe would not have spoken so negatively about
Christianity. The Tacitus text is geuine by history scholarship.

On Mar 8, 11:56 am, Answer_42 <ipu.belie...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Art Grey]

Hi Answer,

On Mar 8, 11:51 am, Answer_42 <ipu.belie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mar 2, 6:17 pm, Counsellor Publishing
>
> <counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Jesus was a poor rabbi executed as a rebel against Rome. Yet we have
> > more about his life than any other of the period,
>
> Bull, we know way more about Julius Cesar and Augustus then we do
> about your Jesus.

There are only a few MSS, ancient manuscripts of these
2 individuals, but there are thousands of MSS for the
New Testament, more than 24,000 in various languages.

This has prompted Sir Frederic Kenyon, director and
principal librarian of the British Museum to state:

"The interval then between the dates of original
composition and the earliest extant evidence
becomes so small as to be in fact, negligible,
and the last foundation for any doubt that the
Scriptures have come down to us substantially
as they were written has now been removed."

....(this interval) is nothing to that which parts
most of the great classical authors from their
earliest manuscripts." F. Kenyon, Handbook
to the Textual Criticism of the NT. pg. 4.

[Counsellor Publishing]

What do we have of Ceasar and Augustus? Gallic Wars?
The writers were inspired by God though uneducated.
They died claiming they saw Christ alive after his death when if they
knew it was a lie they would say, "I made it all up! I don't want to
die!"

On Mar 8, 11:51 am, Answer_42 <ipu.belie...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Counsellor Publishing]

1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and
King Solomon,

YES see Matthew 1

2. be anointed King of Israel,

YES, see the meaning of Messiah "anointed one"

3. return the Jewish People to Israel,

YES, all baptized into Christ are Jews and the church his temple

4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem,

YES rebuilt in Acts 2:38 in Jerusalem

5. bring peace to the world and end all war,

DONE, as Messianists are pacifists...all in Israel are pacifists

6. bring knowledge of God to the world.

MOST CERTAINLY




On Mar 8, 7:22 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"

[Bob T.]

On Mar 8, 12:50 pm, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A Christian scribe would not have spoken so negatively about
> Christianity. The Tacitus text is geuine by history scholarship.
>

Heh. Since a Christian would not give an honest report, we must rely
on the pagan Roman historian. Figures. Anyway, if we take Tacitus as
genuine, we now know that there were Christians in 1st Century Rome...
something we already knew.

- Bob T

> On Mar 8, 11:56 am, Answer_42 <ipu.belie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Mar 4, 12:36 am, Steve in Virginia <chandler2...@hotmail.com>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Or Tacitus may be simply referring to the commonly known Christian
> > > mythology much the same way people today in the USA refer to the
> > > George Washington tossing a coin across the Potomac.  There is no
> > > evidence that Tacitus had access to  Roman archival records from Judea
> > > under Pontius Pilate.  And lets not forget that particular passage
> > > comes down to us from an 11th century copy from a Christian scribe,
> > > and not from any original source documents from the 2nd century A.D.
>
> > Oh yes, let's forget that..., it is totally irrelevant...
>
> > <sigh>
> > ___________________________________________________
> > The demise of our community and culture is the fault of sissified men
> > who have been overly influenced by women.

> > -- Tony Evans- Hide quoted text -

[Eris]

Old Testament?

On Mar 8, 10:22 am, "ranjit_math...@yahoo.com"

[Eris]

The greatest man that ever lived. A God, a miracle worker, and this is
the extent of your proof? Some guy read something about him.
ROFLMAO.

[Eris]

I repeat this is all you have about the greatest man that ever lived?
Hearsay?
ROTFLMAO.

If he existed we would know it. In fact God can prove it any time he
wishes.

F-

See me after class.

On Mar 8, 3:50 pm, Counsellor Publishing

[Eris]

On Mar 8, 3:58 pm, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and
> King Solomon,
> YES see Matthew 1
>
> 2. be anointed King of Israel,
> YES, see the meaning of Messiah "anointed one"
>
> 3. return the Jewish People to Israel,
> YES, all baptized into Christ are Jews and the church his temple
>
> 4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem,
> YES rebuilt in Acts 2:38 in Jerusalem
>

There seems to be only one wall.

> 5. bring peace to the world and end all war,
> DONE, as Messianists are pacifists...all in Israel are pacifists

With obligtory military service requiring them to kill Muslims.
Good example.

[philosophy]

On Mar 9, 6:58 am, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1. have the correct genealogy by being descended from King David and
> King Solomon,
> YES see Matthew 1

I understand this is correct in the physical sense, in that he was
descended from
these two, but as the Son of God? No. You can't have it both ways.

>
> 2. be anointed King of Israel,
> YES, see the meaning of Messiah "anointed one"

Only anointed by those who wanted to anoint him.
This is biased.

>
> 3. return the Jewish People to Israel,
> YES, all baptized into Christ are Jews and the church his temple

I understand this was done after the second
world war - so not in Christs' lifetime. Your reason is a
crock of shit.

>
> 4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem,
> YES rebuilt in Acts 2:38 in Jerusalem

Huh. Where is the Temple?

>
> 5. bring peace to the world and end all war,
> DONE, as Messianists are pacifists...all in Israel are pacifists

Rot. We have had so many wars since then - WW1, WW2.
Afghanistan, Iraq, Viet Nam, Korea..........

>
> 6. bring knowledge of God to the world.
> MOST CERTAINLY

So has Islam.

[ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com]

On Mar 8, 3:58 pm, Counsellor Publishing

<counsellorpublish...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 4. rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem,
> YES rebuilt in Acts 2:38 in Jerusalem

No temple is mentioned:
Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name
of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive
the gift of the Holy Spirit. - Acts 2:38