Why Do Christians Celebrate Christmas?

[Trance Gemini]

Hope it's not too early for this one. The halls are decked with holly
in Canada and Christmas controversies and conversations are starting.

Every so often in Toronto, the PC Brigade starts making noise about
the "right" way to handle Christmas.

Is it PC to say Merry Christmas if you're not a Christian or should we
be saying Happy Holidays and not offend other religions?

If we're going to have a Christmas tree shouldn't we also have symbols
from other religions?

Blah Blah Blah ....

I sit there listening to all these various and sundry Media types
thinking:

What planet did they come from?
Do they apply these research methods (none) to other topics they talk
about? Makes one wonder about the credibility of the Media these days.
Why does it seem that Everyone is talking out of their ass on this
one?

The fact is that it makes absolutely No Sense that Christians
celebrate Christmas. Why?

1. Christ (assuming that he existed) was Not born in December. The
closest date they have to his birth is sometime in the early spring.
2. The Christmas story (Nativity story) is questionable even in
Biblical terms. It's only spoken of in one place in the Bible and is
one of the major Biblical stories that remains unconfirmed anywhere
else in the Bible.
3. All of the traditions associated with Christmas are Pagan with
origins in ancient German (Geol or Yule) and Roman (Saturnalia)
festivals.
4. All of the recent (last 100 years) traditions, Santa Claus, etc.
are secular and were promoted by the retail industry.
5. Even the blessing of Peace and Goodwill came out of the politics of
the Industrial Revolution and was directed to strikers, and Not the
Bible.

So Christians and Atheists, please explain why it makes Any sense for
Christians to celebrate Christmas ;).

[Drafterman]

Free stuff.

[Allan C Cybulskie]

On Nov 21, 9:27 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> The fact is that it makes absolutely No Sense that Christians
> celebrate Christmas. Why?
>
> 1. Christ (assuming that he existed) was Not born in December. The
> closest date they have to his birth is sometime in the early spring.
> 2. The Christmas story (Nativity story) is questionable even in
> Biblical terms. It's only spoken of in one place in the Bible and is
> one of the major Biblical stories that remains unconfirmed anywhere
> else in the Bible.
> 3. All of the traditions associated with Christmas are Pagan with
> origins in ancient German (Geol or Yule) and Roman (Saturnalia)
> festivals.
> 4. All of the recent (last 100 years) traditions, Santa Claus, etc.
> are secular and were promoted by the retail industry.
> 5. Even the blessing of Peace and Goodwill came out of the politics of
> the Industrial Revolution and was directed to strikers, and Not the
> Bible.
>
> So Christians and Atheists, please explain why it makes Any sense for
> Christians to celebrate Christmas ;).

You need to split the secular portions of the holiday from the
religious, which is one reason why all the fuss over things like
"Holiday Trees" is so stupid. There's both secular and religious
aspects to the holiday.

For the religious aspects, it nicely marks the at least Catholic
religious year. We start with the birth in Christmas and end with the
death and resurrection at Easter. The fact that the death was
unlikely to have mapped to March/April doesn't really ruin anything
about Easter, and keeping Christmas where it has been for so long
nicely fits in with New Year's as well, making it nicely appropriate
as a mark of the religious year. And while nothing else in the Bible
directly references it, nothing else contradicts it; if I recall
correctly, the other Gospels tend to start with the start of Jesus'
preaching, whereas Luke's (I think it's Luke's, anyway; it's been a
while since I really looked at it) goes back a bit further. Nothing
particularly odd about that, I would think. So it's a story that fits
into one of the Gospels are considered credible that isn't
contradicted or mentioned by anything else, and it marks a nice start
to a year. Reasonable reason to maintain the religious event in our
modern view.

As for the others, yes, even Christians are allowed to celebrate and
participate in secular holidays, so why would the fact that many of
the traditional Christmas traditions are secular mean anything? You
participate in your religious traditions and your secular traditions;
this does not seem odd to me.

[OldMan]

2 reasons. The first is tradition. I grew up celebrating Christmas
and my wife enjoys the decorations and stuff.

The second reason is the more important. It is a time to remember
Jesus entry into this world as a human. Yes, we have the wrong date
and the trimmings detract from that remembrance. But it is a time for
me to stop and consider, not just the event of his birth, but all that
it led to.

[rappoccio]

Happy Saturnalia!

Everyone go get drunk and have a Bacchan festival.

[Dave]

On Nov 21, 6:27 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So Christians and Atheists, please explain why it makes Any sense for
> Christians to celebrate Christmas ;).

It's a religion. It does not have to make sense. In fact, the less
sense it makes the more they believe it.

When someone says merry christmass to me, I reply with; "Have a happy
Solstice." I put up a Solstice tree every year, hang solstice lights,
give solstice presents, send solstice cards, and the local Secular
Humanist group comes to my place for a deep fried turkey.

Life is having fun, not whining about what others do.

[Trance Gemini]

Well that's why we celebrate Christmas ;) but why do Christians?

On Nov 21, 9:31 am, Drafterman <drafter...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Free stuff.

[Trance Gemini]

On Nov 21, 9:59 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

> On Nov 21, 9:27 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > The fact is that it makes absolutely No Sense that Christians
> > celebrate Christmas. Why?
>
> > 1. Christ (assuming that he existed) was Not born in December. The
> > closest date they have to his birth is sometime in the early spring.
> > 2. The Christmas story (Nativity story) is questionable even in
> > Biblical terms. It's only spoken of in one place in the Bible and is
> > one of the major Biblical stories that remains unconfirmed anywhere
> > else in the Bible.
> > 3. All of the traditions associated with Christmas are Pagan with
> > origins in ancient German (Geol or Yule) and Roman (Saturnalia)
> > festivals.
> > 4. All of the recent (last 100 years) traditions, Santa Claus, etc.
> > are secular and were promoted by the retail industry.
> > 5. Even the blessing of Peace and Goodwill came out of the politics of
> > the Industrial Revolution and was directed to strikers, and Not the
> > Bible.
>
> > So Christians and Atheists, please explain why it makes Any sense for
> > Christians to celebrate Christmas ;).
>
> You need to split the secular portions of the holiday from the
> religious, which is one reason why all the fuss over things like
> "Holiday Trees" is so stupid. There's both secular and religious
> aspects to the holiday.
>

I am. The holiday is secular. There is no valid reason to attribute
anything Christian to it.

> For the religious aspects, it nicely marks the at least Catholic
> religious year. We start with the birth in Christmas and end with the
> death and resurrection at Easter. The fact that the death was
> unlikely to have mapped to March/April doesn't really ruin anything
> about Easter, and keeping Christmas where it has been for so long
> nicely fits in with New Year's as well, making it nicely appropriate
> as a mark of the religious year. And while nothing else in the Bible
> directly references it, nothing else contradicts it; if I recall
> correctly, the other Gospels tend to start with the start of Jesus'
> preaching, whereas Luke's (I think it's Luke's, anyway; it's been a
> while since I really looked at it) goes back a bit further. Nothing
> particularly odd about that, I would think. So it's a story that fits
> into one of the Gospels are considered credible that isn't
> contradicted or mentioned by anything else, and it marks a nice start
> to a year. Reasonable reason to maintain the religious event in our
> modern view.
>

Well that's all fine but not supported by the Christian Bible which
indicates his birthday was likely in the spring.
If the story has such little support why is it such a big frigging
deal?

> As for the others, yes, even Christians are allowed to celebrate and
> participate in secular holidays, so why would the fact that many of
> the traditional Christmas traditions are secular mean anything? You
> participate in your religious traditions and your secular traditions;

> this does not seem odd to me.- Hide quoted text -
>

I have no problem whatsoever with Christians celebrating the secular
holiday of Christmas :) Go for it!
I'm taking exception to the claim that it's a Christian holiday.

> - Show quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

Me too :)

> The second reason is the more important. It is a time to remember
> Jesus entry into this world as a human. Yes, we have the wrong date
> and the trimmings detract from that remembrance. But it is a time for
> me to stop and consider, not just the event of his birth, but all that
> it led to

Why not do this in the spring when he was actually born and adopt
traditions directly related to the religion?
Isn't celebrating it this way a hypocracy for Christians?


.- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

On Nov 21, 11:17 am, rappoccio <rappoc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Happy Saturnalia!
>
> Everyone go get drunk and have a Bacchan festival.

See you at the bar. I like my martinis cold and dry. ;)

> > Christians to celebrate Christmas ;).- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

Cool approach but why not just Merry Christmas, since the holiday and
traditions are already secular and have nothing to do with religion?

>
> Life is having fun, not whining about what others do.

Agreed. Christians should join in celebrating the secular Christmas
and stop trying to hijack it and turn it into something it's not, a
religious celebration :)

[Allan C Cybulskie]

Other than the fact that the secular holiday grew out of the religious
observation (which, I admit, reused and adapted some pagan
holidays, at least in part to appeal to them)?

What's your point, here?

> > For the religious aspects, it nicely marks the at least Catholic
> > religious year. We start with the birth in Christmas and end with the
> > death and resurrection at Easter. The fact that the death was
> > unlikely to have mapped to March/April doesn't really ruin anything
> > about Easter, and keeping Christmas where it has been for so long
> > nicely fits in with New Year's as well, making it nicely appropriate
> > as a mark of the religious year. And while nothing else in the Bible
> > directly references it, nothing else contradicts it; if I recall
> > correctly, the other Gospels tend to start with the start of Jesus'
> > preaching, whereas Luke's (I think it's Luke's, anyway; it's been a
> > while since I really looked at it) goes back a bit further. Nothing
> > particularly odd about that, I would think. So it's a story that fits
> > into one of the Gospels are considered credible that isn't
> > contradicted or mentioned by anything else, and it marks a nice start
> > to a year. Reasonable reason to maintain the religious event in our
> > modern view.
>
> Well that's all fine but not supported by the Christian Bible which
> indicates his birthday was likely in the spring.
> If the story has such little support why is it such a big frigging
> deal?

Christmas -- the celebration of Christ's birth -- is a major component
of the Christian religious year. The fact that it may not map
directly to the precise "birthday" is irrelevant, as I pointed out
above. It is convenient for modern Christians to maintain the
traditional timing, especially since the symbolism fits nicely --
especially with the formal "end of the year" ending in the Spring,
which has a lot of nice symbolism for a rebirth. So I fail to see why
we -- or anyone -- should really care about how the dates don't match
up well. Rituals are always, at least in part, symbolic, and the
symbolism works.

This does not seem to be a particularly big concern, to me. But you
might have wanted to comment and read more of what I actually said
instead of diving back into a comment that I already explained why no
one should care about.

>
> > As for the others, yes, even Christians are allowed to celebrate and
> > participate in secular holidays, so why would the fact that many of
> > the traditional Christmas traditions are secular mean anything? You
> > participate in your religious traditions and your secular traditions;
> > this does not seem odd to me.- Hide quoted text -
>
> I have no problem whatsoever with Christians celebrating the secular
> holiday of Christmas :) Go for it!
> I'm taking exception to the claim that it's a Christian holiday.

It is, as you CLAIMED to understand above, both a secular and
religious holiday. The religious holiday in its traditions and timing
works, which is why modern Christians should have no problems
maintaining it as it is celebrated and has been celebrated for quite
some time. We thus celebrate both. Really, what is your problem with
the religious holiday and secular holiday remaining the same day,
other than that some idiots can't separate the two and insist that
anything called "Christmas" must be strictly Christian and thus
offensive to non-Christians?

[Dave]

On Nov 21, 9:36 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 11:56 am, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 21, 6:27 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > So Christians and Atheists, please explain why it makes Any sense for
> > > Christians to celebrate Christmas ;).
>
> > It's a religion. It does not have to make sense. In fact, the less
> > sense it makes the more they believe it.
>
> > When someone says merry christmass to me, I reply with; "Have a happy
> > Solstice." I put up a Solstice tree every year, hang solstice lights,
> > give solstice presents, send solstice cards, and the local Secular
> > Humanist group comes to my place for a deep fried turkey.
>
> Cool approach but why not just Merry Christmas, since the holiday and
> traditions are already secular and have nothing to do with religion?

The christmass part is their tradition, not mine.

> > Life is having fun, not whining about what others do.
>
> Agreed. Christians should join in celebrating the secular Christmas
> and stop trying to hijack it and turn it into something it's not, a
> religious celebration :)

They already have. Nothing about their two main holidays, christmass
and easter have nothing to do with their religion.

[Dave]

On Nov 21, 9:41 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
>

> Other than the fact that the secular holiday grew out of the religious
> observation (which, I admit, reused and adapted some pagan
> holidays, at least in part to appeal to them)?

The pagan/secular holidays came first.

> Christmas -- the celebration of Christ's birth -- is a major component
> of the Christian religious year. The fact that it may not map
> directly to the precise "birthday" is irrelevant, as I pointed out

> above. ....

it is relevant since it has nothing to do with their religion.

[bonfly]

Geez Allan, you sure a nasty scrooge.

On Nov 22, 3:41 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>

[rappoccio]

On Nov 21, 11:34 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 11:17 am, rappoccio <rappoc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Happy Saturnalia!
>
> > Everyone go get drunk and have a Bacchan festival.
>
> See you at the bar. I like my martinis cold and dry. ;)

Coming right up! I make 'em EXTRA dry :)

[LL]

On Nov 21, 6:27 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> So Christians and Atheists, please explain why it makes Any sense for
> Christians to celebrate Christmas ;).

LL: It makes no sense for Christians to celebrate it. It makes a whole
lot more sense for atheists to celebrate the original day--a Solstice
celebration--before the Christians stole it. Even the Christmas tree
was a pagan symbol.

[Allan C Cybulskie]

On Nov 21, 2:18 pm, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 9:41 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Other than the fact that the secular holiday grew out of the religious
> > observation (which, I admit, reused and adapted some pagan
> > holidays, at least in part to appeal to them)?
>
> The pagan/secular holidays came first.

Pagan != secular.

First, there was the pagan. Then Christianity adopted the holiday for
the celebration of Christ's birth, and adopted some of their
traditions. And then after that Christmas became secularized.

>
> > Christmas -- the celebration of Christ's birth -- is a major component
> > of the Christian religious year. The fact that it may not map
> > directly to the precise "birthday" is irrelevant, as I pointed out
> > above. ....
>
> it is relevant since it has nothing to do with their religion.

Sorry, but we'll choose what days we want to to celebrate our
traditions, thank you very much. Christmas makes sense where it is
because of how it fits into the year, and so there is no reason to
change that tradition now ...

[Allan C Cybulskie]

On Nov 21, 4:11 pm, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 6:27 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > So Christians and Atheists, please explain why it makes Any sense for
> > Christians to celebrate Christmas ;).
>
> LL: It makes no sense for Christians to celebrate it. It makes a whole
> lot more sense for atheists to celebrate the original day--a Solstice
> celebration--before the Christians stole it. Even the Christmas tree
> was a pagan symbol.

So you're saying that Christians should not continue to celebrate
Christ's birth on Christmas because it probably wasn't when he was
born ... despite the fact that the reason it is celebrated as a
secular holiday is because of what, as we've all admitted, Christians
"stole"?

Why do you want to kick Christians out of the day they popularized in
the first place?

[Trance Gemini]

On Nov 21, 12:41 pm, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>

Just in case you didn't get it the first time: The holiday is secular.

There is no valid reason to attribute anything Christian to it.

If you want to celebrate Christ's birthday, celebrate it in the
spring. Is that so difficult to grasp? Still works with New Years and
Easter.

Then you can celebrate it with traditional religious wrappings and not
spoil our secular fun.

However, I'll happily stroll down the street with you and yours
singing Jingle Bells. Might even buy you and yours a little gift.

Belgium chocolates, perhaps?

Oh no. I'm the one who likes those. Okay you can buy me a box.

God's word isn't supposed to be convenient is it?

Paganism is evil isn't it?

Don't you want to keep Christ's holiday pure and Keep the Christ in
Christmas so to speak?

> This does not seem to be a particularly big concern, to me. But you
> might have wanted to comment and read more of what I actually said
> instead of diving back into a comment that I already explained why no
> one should care about.
>
>
>
> > > As for the others, yes, even Christians are allowed to celebrate and
> > > participate in secular holidays, so why would the fact that many of
> > > the traditional Christmas traditions are secular mean anything? You
> > > participate in your religious traditions and your secular traditions;
> > > this does not seem odd to me.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > I have no problem whatsoever with Christians celebrating the secular
> > holiday of Christmas :) Go for it!
> > I'm taking exception to the claim that it's a Christian holiday.
>
> It is, as you CLAIMED to understand above, both a secular and
> religious holiday. The religious holiday in its traditions and timing
> works, which is why modern Christians should have no problems
> maintaining it as it is celebrated and has been celebrated for quite
> some time. We thus celebrate both. Really, what is your problem with
> the religious holiday and secular holiday remaining the same day,
> other than that some idiots can't separate the two and insist that
> anything called "Christmas" must be strictly Christian and thus

> offensive to non-Christians?- Hide quoted text -
>

Your misinterpreting me. My question is why do Christians celebrate
Christmas.

I am stating that Christmas is a Secular holiday Not a Christian
holiday.

I'll take my Belgium Chocolates anytime, just drop the box in the mail
before the secular Christmas rush ;)

> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

> and easter have nothing to do with their religion.- Hide quoted text -

You give up too easily, Dave. They have hijacked the name only, the
rest is Pagan, and they are propagating a myth somewhat like their
Bible and God, the myth of Christmas as a Christian holiday.

I'm okay with keeping the name. Lets just take the Christ Out of
Christmas when it comes to the secular holiday.

[Trance Gemini]

On Nov 21, 4:00 pm, rappoccio <rappoc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 11:34 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 21, 11:17 am, rappoccio <rappoc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Happy Saturnalia!
>
> > > Everyone go get drunk and have a Bacchan festival.
>
> > See you at the bar. I like my martinis cold and dry. ;)
>
> Coming right up! I make 'em EXTRA dry :)

EXTRA dry works for me! So hard to find anyone that knows how to make
a good martini anymore.

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

Exactly! Thank you LL. It makes more sense for Atheists to celebrate
Christmas because despite the Pagan origins it is now a Secular
tradition :)

On Nov 21, 4:11 pm, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:

[Dave]

On Nov 21, 2:22 pm, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>

wrote:
> On Nov 21, 2:18 pm, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 21, 9:41 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> > wrote:
>
> > > Other than the fact that the secular holiday grew out of the religious
> > > observation (which, I admit, reused and adapted some pagan
> > > holidays, at least in part to appeal to them)?
>
> > The pagan/secular holidays came first.
>
> Pagan != secular.

Only to those that have trouble with English. Notice the slash (/)
between the two words and try to figure out in your little mind what
that means. A little clue; it does not mean "equal" or "the same as."

> First, there was the pagan. Then Christianity adopted the holiday for
> the celebration of Christ's birth, and adopted some of their
> traditions. And then after that Christmas became secularized.

Now you're catching on. See, thinking didn't hurt that much did it?

[Dave]

Give up? What? I just stated that nothing about the two main holidays
have anything to do with their religion! In fact, Easter is the name
of a pagan goddess! The whole bunny and egg thing is from that god
Eostra. (It's also where get get the word 'estrogen'.)

> I'm okay with keeping the name. Lets just take the Christ Out of
> Christmas when it comes to the secular holiday.

I do. That's why I said I give out Solstice presents, put up Solstice
lights, send out Solstice cards, host the local Secular Humanist group
(I'm the president) for a Solstice Celebration, and if the weather
permits, we have a Solstice Bonfire to help the Sun grow. And you
know.... it works. Every year we light a huge fire to help the Sun get
stronger and it works. Every year the days get longer after we help it
with the bonfire.

[Trance Gemini]

Oops my mistake. I misread. <Damn I need new glasses!>

>
> > I'm okay with keeping the name. Lets just take the Christ Out of
> > Christmas when it comes to the secular holiday.
>
> I do. That's why I said I give out Solstice presents, put up Solstice
> lights, send out Solstice cards, host the local Secular Humanist group
> (I'm the president) for a Solstice Celebration, and if the weather
> permits, we have a Solstice Bonfire to help the Sun grow. And you
> know.... it works. Every year we light a huge fire to help the Sun get
> stronger and it works. Every year the days get longer after we help it

> with the bonfire.- Hide quoted text -

LMAO :). Really sounds like a great idea!

[Simpleton]

On Nov 21, 2:24 pm, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

> On Nov 21, 4:11 pm, LL <llp...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 21, 6:27 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > So Christians and Atheists, please explain why it makes Any sense for
> > > Christians to celebrate Christmas ;).
>
> > LL: It makes no sense for Christians to celebrate it. It makes a whole
> > lot more sense for atheists to celebrate the original day--a Solstice
> > celebration--before the Christians stole it. Even the Christmas tree
> > was a pagan symbol.
>
> So you're saying that Christians should not continue to celebrate
> Christ's birth on Christmas because it probably wasn't when he was
> born ... despite the fact that the reason it is celebrated as a
> secular holiday is because of what, as we've all admitted, Christians
> "stole"?
>

It is settled then, we should call it Mithramas.

>
> Why do you want to kick Christians out of the day they popularized in
> the first place?

'tis the American way. We "kicked out" the Americans, and now call
ourselves Americans, and call the Americans native Americans.

[OldMan]

Why are you so sure he was born in the Spring. The only dating I can
see from the gospel accounts is that the shepherds were out in the
fields at night. That eliminates Winter.

If I confuse setting up a Christmas tree and exchanging gifts with my
family with celebrating Jesus birth, then that would be somewhat
hyprocritical. I try very hard to keep the distinction in my own mind
and for my family.

[Trance Gemini]

A Christian told me so.

> If I confuse setting up a Christmas tree and exchanging gifts with my
> family with celebrating Jesus birth, then that would be somewhat
> hyprocritical. I try very hard to keep the distinction in my own mind

> and for my family.- Hide quoted text -

[OldMan]

It is just speculative.

[Trance Gemini]

> It is just speculative.- Hide quoted text -

Okay I can accept that but we agree he wasn't born in December since
that would be Winter. So why celebrate his birth in the one season
that you Know he wasn't born :)

[OldMan]

Convenience.

[Simpleton]

What year was Jesus born in, according to the gospels?

[Observer]

On Nov 21, 2:22 pm, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>

Observer
Celebrating christ ***the god fraud ***is a stupid idea. Your filthy
superstition (christianity) is as abhorrent as its core symbol . (a
man being horribly tortured to death) If it went for sadists ,
masochists , and the financially or mentally impoverished of the world
it would have collapsed under the weight of its own iniquity before
now.

Here is a good reason to celebrate this is something actual.



The Winter Solstice, historically known as Midwinter, occurs around
December 21 or 22 each year in the Northern hemisphere, and June 20 or
21 in the Southern Hemisphere. It occurs on the shortest day or
longest night of the year, marking the astronomical beginning of
winter.


Psychonomist

[Timothy 1:4a]

On Nov 21, 9:59 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

> You need to split the secular portions of the holiday from the
> religious, which is one reason why all the fuss over things like
> "Holiday Trees" is so stupid. There's both secular and religious
> aspects to the holiday.
>

> For the religious aspects, it nicely marks the at least Catholic
> religious year. We start with the birth in Christmas and end with the

> death and resurrection at Easter. <snip>

Do you spend the remaining 8 months in suspended animation?

[Observer]

Observer

Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha

You nailed it .

Psychonomist

[Dave]

On Nov 21, 3:25 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...

> Oops my mistake. I misread. <Damn I need new glasses!>

Oh no! Does that mean you are....... human?

> > I do. That's why I said I give out Solstice presents, put up Solstice
> > lights, send out Solstice cards, host the local Secular Humanist group
> > (I'm the president) for a Solstice Celebration, and if the weather
> > permits, we have a Solstice Bonfire to help the Sun grow. And you
> > know.... it works. Every year we light a huge fire to help the Sun get
> > stronger and it works. Every year the days get longer after we help it
> > with the bonfire.- Hide quoted text -
>
> LMAO :). Really sounds like a great idea!

If we don't have a bonfire the Sun would not grow stronger and the
days would not get longer and the Darkness would win.

[Dave]

On Nov 21, 5:39 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Okay I can accept that but we agree he wasn't born in December since
> that would be Winter. So why celebrate his birth in the one season
> that you Know he wasn't born :)

If this jesus is supposed to be so important, and this god went to all
the trouble of the virgin birth, and the arranging the torture and
death, but not dying, of this jesus, you'd figure they'd also know his
birthday.

[Timothy 1:4a]

My Catholic Italian dad-in-law used to tell me that Christmas was set
on the day after the sun rises latest, and light starts to return. I
would tell him that the Solstice was Dec 21/22 and the church got it
wrong by 3 days.

Turns out he was right. The shortest day is not the day when the sun
rises latest. Noon is not usually the exact center of the day,
although it's only off by a few seconds.

This ties into Kepler's Law. The speed of the earth's spin is constant
for practical purposes, but the speed of its trip around the sun is
not. So the time from yesterday's "pointing straight at the sun" to
today's "pointing straight at the sun" is not a constant 24 hours.

On Nov 21, 11:56 am, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 6:27 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > So Christians and Atheists, please explain why it makes Any sense for
> > Christians to celebrate Christmas ;).
>

> It's a religion. It does not have to make sense. In fact, the less
> sense it makes the more they believe it.
>
> When someone says merry christmass to me, I reply with; "Have a happy
> Solstice." I put up a Solstice tree every year, hang solstice lights,
> give solstice presents, send solstice cards, and the local Secular
> Humanist group comes to my place for a deep fried turkey.
>

[OldMan]

> What year was Jesus born in, according to the gospels?-

It's somewhat unclear. According to Matthew it was probably in the
7BC to 4BC range since Herod died in 4BC and Jesus may have been as
much as 2 years old when he orders the infants in Bethlehem killed.

Luke records it as happening when Quirinius was governor of Syria.
The only firm date we have for that, as far as I know, is about 6AD.
The 7BC to 4BC date is generally held to be the most likely. This
seems to be the only questionable archaelogically verifiable event,
place or name in Luke's narratives.

[Simpleton]

What do you think then, is the significance of 1 AD?

[Allan C Cybulskie]

On Nov 21, 6:12 pm, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 2:22 pm, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 21, 2:18 pm, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 21, 9:41 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> > > wrote:
>
> > > > Other than the fact that the secular holiday grew out of the religious
> > > > observation (which, I admit, reused and adapted some pagan
> > > > holidays, at least in part to appeal to them)?
>
> > > The pagan/secular holidays came first.
>
> > Pagan != secular.
>
> Only to those that have trouble with English.

So pagan IS equal to secular to people who know English?

> Notice the slash (/)
> between the two words and try to figure out in your little mind what
> that means. A little clue; it does not mean "equal" or "the same as."

Actually, it usually does mean precisely that; that in at least that
context, the terms can be used interchangeably.

Besides, treating them separately means that this statement should be
true: "The secular holidays came first". Oops, for Christmas that
isn't true. So sorry, but thanks for playing.

>
> > First, there was the pagan. Then Christianity adopted the holiday for
> > the celebration of Christ's birth, and adopted some of their
> > traditions. And then after that Christmas became secularized.
>
> Now you're catching on. See, thinking didn't hurt that much did it?

And thus by your own admission the secular holidays did not come
first. Thanks for agreeing with me.

[Allan C Cybulskie]

On Nov 21, 10:21 pm, Observer <mayors...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 2:22 pm, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> wrote:
> > Sorry, but we'll choose what days we want to to celebrate our
> > traditions, thank you very much. Christmas makes sense where it is
> > because of how it fits into the year, and so there is no reason to
> > change that tradition now ...
>
> Observer
> Celebrating christ ***the god fraud ***is a stupid idea.

Then don't do it. See how easy that is?

Enjoy the secular holiday in as full a manner as you wish, or ignore
it completely because of its association with religion. It's up to
you, really ...

> Here is a good reason to celebrate this is something actual.
>
> The Winter Solstice, historically known as Midwinter, occurs around
> December 21 or 22 each year in the Northern hemisphere, and June 20 or
> 21 in the Southern Hemisphere. It occurs on the shortest day or
> longest night of the year, marking the astronomical beginning of
> winter.

Living in Canada, I fail to see why someone would celebrate the start
of Winter [grin].

[Allan C Cybulskie]

Easter runs a bit past in a bit of an epilogue, and Advent starts
closer to November.

[Allan C Cybulskie]

On Nov 21, 5:46 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 21, 12:41 pm, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> wrote:
> > > I am. The holiday is secular. There is no valid reason to attribute
> > > anything Christian to it.
>
> > Other than the fact that the secular holiday grew out of the religious
> > observation (which, I admit, reused and adapted some pagan
> > holidays, at least in part to appeal to them)?
>
> > What's your point, here?
>
> Just in case you didn't get it the first time: The holiday is secular.
> There is no valid reason to attribute anything Christian to it.

In case YOU didn't get it the first time: Other than the fact that

the secular holiday grew out of the religious
observation (which, I admit, reused and adapted some pagan holidays,
at least in part to appeal to them)?

The valid reason to attribute anything Christian to it is that it only
exists as a secular holiday with the force that it has now because the
Christians picked it FOR their religious holiday. So, basically, with
respect to Christian versus secular we were here first.

At any rate, I've already talked about how the symbolism works out,
and that's sufficient for any religion to choose a day as their
holiday.

>
> If you want to celebrate Christ's birthday, celebrate it in the
> spring. Is that so difficult to grasp? Still works with New Years and
> Easter.

No, actually, it doesn't.

The birth, symbolically, works out nicer closer to New Year's.
Easter, symbolically, works out better in the spring.
Moving Christmas to spring doesn't work symbolically, so there is no
reason for Christianity to do it. And not celebrating the exact date
is not a concern, even if it is radically off.

And finally, you do not get to tell us when we should celebrate our
religious holidays.

>
> Then you can celebrate it with traditional religious wrappings and not
> spoil our secular fun.

Well, why don't YOU move "secular Christmas" to some other time then?
We were there first (wrt secular versus religious).

> > Christmas -- the celebration of Christ's birth -- is a major component
> > of the Christian religious year. The fact that it may not map
> > directly to the precise "birthday" is irrelevant, as I pointed out
> > above. It is convenient for modern Christians to maintain the
> > traditional timing, especially since the symbolism fits nicely --
> > especially with the formal "end of the year" ending in the Spring,
> > which has a lot of nice symbolism for a rebirth. So I fail to see why
> > we -- or anyone -- should really care about how the dates don't match
> > up well. Rituals are always, at least in part, symbolic, and the
> > symbolism works.
>
> God's word isn't supposed to be convenient is it?

There is nothing in God's word that says "celebrate Christmas". It
does say "Form and maintain a religion", and convenience and symbolism
matters in creating rituals for those who are in a religion to partake
in.

>
> Paganism is evil isn't it?

And what is done at Christmas religiously isn't pagan, and if the
rituals are aimed at God paganism doesn't enter into it. The rituals
are what we do in the terms of formal community building and the like;
their origins are far less important than what they achieve in that
sense.

>
> Don't you want to keep Christ's holiday pure and Keep the Christ in
> Christmas so to speak?

I have no issues with secular or even pagan rituals being run at the
same time. The commercialism is a bit annoying, however.

> > It is, as you CLAIMED to understand above, both a secular and
> > religious holiday. The religious holiday in its traditions and timing
> > works, which is why modern Christians should have no problems
> > maintaining it as it is celebrated and has been celebrated for quite
> > some time. We thus celebrate both. Really, what is your problem with
> > the religious holiday and secular holiday remaining the same day,
> > other than that some idiots can't separate the two and insist that
> > anything called "Christmas" must be strictly Christian and thus
> > offensive to non-Christians?- Hide quoted text -
>
> Your misinterpreting me. My question is why do Christians celebrate
> Christmas.

And I have answered that, repeatedly.

>
> I am stating that Christmas is a Secular holiday Not a Christian
> holiday.

Except it clearly ISN'T, or you wouldn't be asking us to move our
religious holiday away from it, now would you?

[Trance Gemini]

On Nov 22, 7:05 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>

wrote:
> On Nov 21, 6:12 pm, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Nov 21, 2:22 pm, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> > wrote:
>
> > > On Nov 21, 2:18 pm, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Nov 21, 9:41 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> > > > wrote:
>
> > > > > Other than the fact that the secular holiday grew out of the religious
> > > > > observation (which, I admit, reused and adapted some pagan
> > > > > holidays, at least in part to appeal to them)?
>
> > > > The pagan/secular holidays came first.
>
> > > Pagan != secular.
>
> > Only to those that have trouble with English.
>
> So pagan IS equal to secular to people who know English?
>
> > Notice the slash (/)
> > between the two words and try to figure out in your little mind what
> > that means. A little clue; it does not mean "equal" or "the same as."
>
> Actually, it usually does mean precisely that; that in at least that
> context, the terms can be used interchangeably.
>

You are correct. The slash makes them interchangeable. My mistake. And
thanks but my english skills are excellent, however, we all make
mistakes from time to time :)

> Besides, treating them separately means that this statement should be
> true: "The secular holidays came first". Oops, for Christmas that
> isn't true. So sorry, but thanks for playing.
>
>
>
> > > First, there was the pagan. Then Christianity adopted the holiday for
> > > the celebration of Christ's birth, and adopted some of their
> > > traditions. And then after that Christmas became secularized.
>
> > Now you're catching on. See, thinking didn't hurt that much did it?
>
> And thus by your own admission the secular holidays did not come

> first. Thanks for agreeing with me.- Hide quoted text -
>

All of this is irrelevant. The fact is that Christmas is a secular
tradition and has Never been a valid Christian tradition since there
is nothing in the tradition associated with Christianity except a
mistaken date

[Trance Gemini]

On Nov 22, 7:08 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>

wrote:
> On Nov 21, 10:21 pm, Observer <mayors...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 21, 2:22 pm, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> > wrote:
> > > Sorry, but we'll choose what days we want to to celebrate our
> > > traditions, thank you very much. Christmas makes sense where it is
> > > because of how it fits into the year, and so there is no reason to
> > > change that tradition now ...
>
> > Observer
> > Celebrating christ ***the god fraud ***is a stupid idea.
>
> Then don't do it. See how easy that is?
>
> Enjoy the secular holiday in as full a manner as you wish, or ignore
> it completely because of its association with religion. It's up to
> you, really ...
>

It has no association with Christianity. That's the fraud, the myth
that Christianity has perpetrated.

> > Here is a good reason to celebrate this is something actual.
>
> > The Winter Solstice, historically known as Midwinter, occurs around
> > December 21 or 22 each year in the Northern hemisphere, and June 20 or
> > 21 in the Southern Hemisphere. It occurs on the shortest day or
> > longest night of the year, marking the astronomical beginning of
> > winter.
>
> Living in Canada, I fail to see why someone would celebrate the start
> of Winter [grin].

Living in Canada, there's nothing else to do in December :)

[mike_1917]

My wife and I are atheists and bringing our 7 yr. old up accordingly.

On Monday my child will have a day off school in celebration of Guru
Nanak's birthday, she will also have a special assembly to explain the
importance of this event. Similar celebrations occur at Diwali and at
Hannukah. This seems a good way for us to explain that there are
alternative systems of belief and give her choice.

Of course, we have a Christmas Tree, and a roast goose, Christmas pud,
(I made mine in September and have been feeding them brandy ever
since). These traditions are not Christian anyway, just things
christianity took from the religions they persecuted over the
centuries.

I doubt if it snowed much in the hills above Bethlehem 2000 years ago
but the idea of a mid-winter festival has seemed a good idea to people
in every land.

I shall definitely be wishing all of you, "Happy Christmas and a
prosperous New Year" and imbibing a few pints of English Ale as well

[Allan C Cybulskie]

On Nov 22, 7:23 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 22, 7:05 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> wrote:
> > > Notice the slash (/)
> > > between the two words and try to figure out in your little mind what
> > > that means. A little clue; it does not mean "equal" or "the same as."
>
> > Actually, it usually does mean precisely that; that in at least that
> > context, the terms can be used interchangeably.
>
> You are correct. The slash makes them interchangeable. My mistake. And
> thanks but my english skills are excellent, however, we all make
> mistakes from time to time :)

Um, the original poster was Dave ... are you admitting to be Dave
[grin]? Should I start a "Trance Gemini is Dave" thread, follow you
around saying that you and Dave are the same person, noting any
replies that you make to each other on that grounds [grin]?

Of course, I don't think that's true ... so take all of those comments
as jokes, please [grin].

> > > Now you're catching on. See, thinking didn't hurt that much did it?
>
> > And thus by your own admission the secular holidays did not come
> > first. Thanks for agreeing with me.- Hide quoted text -
>
> All of this is irrelevant. The fact is that Christmas is a secular
> tradition and has Never been a valid Christian tradition since there
> is nothing in the tradition associated with Christianity except a
> mistaken date

You cannot say that Christmas is a "secular tradition" because you
insist that Christmas is not a VALID Christian holiday (note the
phrasing). The association with Christian tradition is because the
Christian tradition first adopted the holiday and make it a religious
holiday for Christians. Then the secular tradition grew out of that.
Christians are in no way required to change their religious holiday
even if the mistake (as you put it) on the date or season is now
apparent. It makes sense, we like it, and we've been doing it for
generations. And the only people who are bothered by it are those
that cannot separate the religious from the secular, and paint both
with the same brush.

[Trance Gemini]

Well we can't have that happen can we! I'd do a bonfire here but would
probably get arrested. OMG! That could explain why our sun is so weak
here for so long!

[Allan C Cybulskie]

On Nov 22, 7:25 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 22, 7:08 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> wrote:
> > Then don't do it. See how easy that is?
>
> > Enjoy the secular holiday in as full a manner as you wish, or ignore
> > it completely because of its association with religion. It's up to
> > you, really ...
>
> It has no association with Christianity. That's the fraud, the myth
> that Christianity has perpetrated.

It has a long-standing association with Christianity, since it is the
traditional day that the event was celebrated. There is no to say
that Christians MUST change it now, or that that date has NO
association with Christianity, since Christian traditions adopted it
and thus it HAS that association. The fact that you don't like that
is irrelevant.

>
> > > Here is a good reason to celebrate this is something actual.
>
> > > The Winter Solstice, historically known as Midwinter, occurs around
> > > December 21 or 22 each year in the Northern hemisphere, and June 20 or
> > > 21 in the Southern Hemisphere. It occurs on the shortest day or
> > > longest night of the year, marking the astronomical beginning of
> > > winter.
>
> > Living in Canada, I fail to see why someone would celebrate the start
> > of Winter [grin].
>
> Living in Canada, there's nothing else to do in December :)

Actually, that's January. December is generally reasonably pleasant
(if occasionally snowy).

[Trance Gemini]

One would think so wouldn't one :).

And then to celebrate his birthday at the one time they Know he wasn't
born???

Sounds a little irrational to me :)

[Trance Gemini]

> place or name in Luke's narratives.- Hide quoted text -

Hmm. What's wrong with this picture OM? Jesus was born from 7 Before
Christ to 4 Before Christ? lmao.
Or possibly 6 After Death?

Now that's just too funny. What was that I said about irrational?

[Trance Gemini]

On Nov 22, 7:59 am, mike_1917 <mike_jul...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> My wife and I are atheists and bringing our 7 yr. old up accordingly.
>
> On Monday my child will have a day off school in celebration of Guru
> Nanak's birthday, she will also have a special assembly to explain the
> importance of this event. Similar celebrations occur at Diwali and at
> Hannukah. This seems a good way for us to explain that there are
> alternative systems of belief and give her choice.
>
> Of course, we have a Christmas Tree, and a roast goose, Christmas pud,
> (I made mine in September and have been feeding them brandy ever
> since). These traditions are not Christian anyway, just things
> christianity took from the religions they persecuted over the
> centuries.
>
> I doubt if it snowed much in the hills above Bethlehem 2000 years ago
> but the idea of a mid-winter festival has seemed a good idea to people
> in every land.
>
> I shall definitely be wishing all of you, "Happy Christmas and a
> prosperous New Year" and imbibing a few pints of English Ale as well

As will I :). And I will be saying Merry Christmas to one and all
because Christmas is a secular holiday and tradition :)

> > Christians to celebrate Christmas ;).- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

On Nov 22, 8:03 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>

wrote:
> On Nov 22, 7:25 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 22, 7:08 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> > wrote:
> > > Then don't do it. See how easy that is?
>
> > > Enjoy the secular holiday in as full a manner as you wish, or ignore
> > > it completely because of its association with religion. It's up to
> > > you, really ...
>
> > It has no association with Christianity. That's the fraud, the myth
> > that Christianity has perpetrated.
>
> It has a long-standing association with Christianity, since it is the
> traditional day that the event was celebrated. There is no to say
> that Christians MUST change it now, or that that date has NO
> association with Christianity, since Christian traditions adopted it
> and thus it HAS that association. The fact that you don't like that
> is irrelevant.
>
>

Only because the Christians Hijacked the day! I'm saying redress the
wrong :)

>
> > > > Here is a good reason to celebrate this is something actual.
>
> > > > The Winter Solstice, historically known as Midwinter, occurs around
> > > > December 21 or 22 each year in the Northern hemisphere, and June 20 or
> > > > 21 in the Southern Hemisphere. It occurs on the shortest day or
> > > > longest night of the year, marking the astronomical beginning of
> > > > winter.
>
> > > Living in Canada, I fail to see why someone would celebrate the start
> > > of Winter [grin].
>
> > Living in Canada, there's nothing else to do in December :)
>
> Actually, that's January. December is generally reasonably pleasant
> (if occasionally snowy).

I live in Toronto, so I think I know what the weather is like here. By
the way, we're getting in snowed in today. Storm warnings. A Ton of
accidents this morning because of black ice. Oh Gee, it's November
22. :).

[Allan C Cybulskie]

On Nov 22, 8:17 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Nov 22, 8:03 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> wrote:
> > It has a long-standing association with Christianity, since it is the
> > traditional day that the event was celebrated. There is no to say
> > that Christians MUST change it now, or that that date has NO
> > association with Christianity, since Christian traditions adopted it
> > and thus it HAS that association. The fact that you don't like that
> > is irrelevant.
>
> Only because the Christians Hijacked the day! I'm saying redress the
> wrong :)

Well, when the pagans complain, I might consider it. But they have as
legitimate a claim against secular Christmas, too, so I don't think
that will get very far.

Basically, from the perspective of the "secular vs Christian" holiday
notion, the secular side hijacked it from the Christians. I'm,
however, perfectly willing to do the "let's all get along" and let it
be both [grin].

> > > > Living in Canada, I fail to see why someone would celebrate the start
> > > > of Winter [grin].
>
> > > Living in Canada, there's nothing else to do in December :)
>
> > Actually, that's January. December is generally reasonably pleasant
> > (if occasionally snowy).
>
> I live in Toronto, so I think I know what the weather is like here. By
> the way, we're getting in snowed in today. Storm warnings. A Ton of
> accidents this morning because of black ice. Oh Gee, it's November
> 22. :).

You left yourself open to this one, so don't take it too seriously
[grin].

I'm from Ottawa ... you people in Toronto don't know what bad weather
IS [grin]. You guys call out the army when you get a little snow; we
waited until we were losing power left and right before calling them
in during the ICE STORM [grin].

And we're getting the snow, too.

But, back to my comment: January is the month where you really don't
want to go outside because it's -30 without the windchill. December
moderates; it snows a bit more (generally) but isn't downright
freezing.

[Trance Gemini]

On Nov 22, 8:01 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>

wrote:
> On Nov 22, 7:23 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 22, 7:05 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> > wrote:
> > > > Notice the slash (/)
> > > > between the two words and try to figure out in your little mind what
> > > > that means. A little clue; it does not mean "equal" or "the same as."
>
> > > Actually, it usually does mean precisely that; that in at least that
> > > context, the terms can be used interchangeably.
>
> > You are correct. The slash makes them interchangeable. My mistake. And
> > thanks but my english skills are excellent, however, we all make
> > mistakes from time to time :)
>
> Um, the original poster was Dave ... are you admitting to be Dave
> [grin]? Should I start a "Trance Gemini is Dave" thread, follow you
> around saying that you and Dave are the same person, noting any
> replies that you make to each other on that grounds [grin]?
>
> Of course, I don't think that's true ... so take all of those comments
> as jokes, please [grin].

Okay now, that is too funny. Nice to see a Christian with a good sense
of humour :)

All I can say is I haven't finished my morning coffee yet and the
required jolt hasn't kicked in.

Of course if I had written this in the evening my excuse would have
been different. lol.

>
> > > > Now you're catching on. See, thinking didn't hurt that much did it?
>
> > > And thus by your own admission the secular holidays did not come
> > > first. Thanks for agreeing with me.- Hide quoted text -
>
> > All of this is irrelevant. The fact is that Christmas is a secular
> > tradition and has Never been a valid Christian tradition since there
> > is nothing in the tradition associated with Christianity except a
> > mistaken date
>
> You cannot say that Christmas is a "secular tradition" because you
> insist that Christmas is not a VALID Christian holiday (note the
> phrasing).

I'm saying that Christmas is:
1. A secular tradition
2. Not a Valid Christian holiday
Therefore Why do Christians celebrate it as a religious holiday.
This makes no sense to me.
If Christians want to celebrate the religious holiday they should
celebrate it a time that makes religious sense and with traditions
that make religious sense.
And if I was a Christian I'd say the same thing.
The Puritans Didn't celebrate Christmas for these very reasons. They
were being consistent with their belief and value system.
Any Christian who celebrates Christmas as a Religious holiday, in my
opinion, is being Inconsistent with their belief and value system.
Of course, all Christians, like the rest of us, including Muslims,
Jews, Sikhs, etc. Should celebrate the Secular tradition of Christmas.

I'm waiting for my box of Belgium chocolates :)

>The association with Christian tradition is because the
> Christian tradition first adopted the holiday and make it a religious
> holiday for Christians. Then the secular tradition grew out of that.
> Christians are in no way required to change their religious holiday
> even if the mistake (as you put it) on the date or season is now
> apparent. It makes sense, we like it, and we've been doing it for
> generations. And the only people who are bothered by it are those
> that cannot separate the religious from the secular, and paint both
> with the same brush.

The association with Christian tradition occurred because the Church
didn't have enough influence to stop people from celebrating their
Pagan traditions so they decided to turn those holiday into Christian
holidays so that they could use them to propagate their dogma.

In my opinion, we've let the church get away with that for long
enough.

A medium size box of Belgium chocolates is acceptable, I'm trying to
drop a few pounds before Christmas ;)

And since your Canadian, they can be purchased at Laura Secords.

[Trance Gemini]

On Nov 22, 8:58 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>

wrote:
> On Nov 22, 8:17 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 22, 8:03 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> > wrote:
> > > It has a long-standing association with Christianity, since it is the
> > > traditional day that the event was celebrated. There is no to say
> > > that Christians MUST change it now, or that that date has NO
> > > association with Christianity, since Christian traditions adopted it
> > > and thus it HAS that association. The fact that you don't like that
> > > is irrelevant.
>
> > Only because the Christians Hijacked the day! I'm saying redress the
> > wrong :)
>
> Well, when the pagans complain, I might consider it. But they have as
> legitimate a claim against secular Christmas, too, so I don't think
> that will get very far.
>
> Basically, from the perspective of the "secular vs Christian" holiday
> notion, the secular side hijacked it from the Christians. I'm,
> however, perfectly willing to do the "let's all get along" and let it
> be both [grin].

Fair is fair :). If you guys can do it so can we :P

>
> > > > > Living in Canada, I fail to see why someone would celebrate the start
> > > > > of Winter [grin].
>
> > > > Living in Canada, there's nothing else to do in December :)
>
> > > Actually, that's January. December is generally reasonably pleasant
> > > (if occasionally snowy).
>
> > I live in Toronto, so I think I know what the weather is like here. By
> > the way, we're getting in snowed in today. Storm warnings. A Ton of
> > accidents this morning because of black ice. Oh Gee, it's November
> > 22. :).
>
> You left yourself open to this one, so don't take it too seriously
> [grin].
>
> I'm from Ottawa ... you people in Toronto don't know what bad weather
> IS [grin]. You guys call out the army when you get a little snow; we
> waited until we were losing power left and right before calling them
> in during the ICE STORM [grin].

Um I was living in Ottawa during the infamous ice storm. Luckily I
lived a couple of blocks from the Fire Dept so got power back within a
few hours.

... And that was Vancouver that called in the Army when they got a
little snow. :) They're such wusses there and have a total of 2 snow
plows for the entire city LOL.

We in TO handle our snow very well and you're right it's out and out
Balmy here compared to Ottawa lol.

>
> And we're getting the snow, too.
>
> But, back to my comment: January is the month where you really don't
> want to go outside because it's -30 without the windchill. December
> moderates; it snows a bit more (generally) but isn't downright
> freezing.

It's all relative

[Trance Gemini]

> It's all relative- Hide quoted text -
>

Belguim Chocolates can be purchased at Laura Secords in Rideau
Center ;)

I lived in Aylmer across the river from you.

> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[OldMan]

The guy who set the starting point for the calendar goofed up. ;-)

[Trance Gemini]

Excuse me, I meant BelGIAN chocolates :)

[OldMan]

I used to think that AD stood for After Death. But it is actually a
Latin expression, Anno Domini, meaning 'in the year of our Lord'.

>
> Now that's just too funny. What was that I said about irrational?

Maybe a little funny. But irrational? How do you get that? We don't
know what year he was born. And when the specific year for the
division between BC and AD was choosen in 525 AD, it was apparently an
attempt to date Easter and not Jesus birth. Wikipedia has an
interesting article on this at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini

[ROM 10:14]

Trance;

What a question, and it is not too early to ask, because I see
people putting up wreaths and holly and stuff, it's only
Thanksgiving. Anh...

To answer your question, a little history, long long ago in a
galaxy really close, like here there was a pagan religon that had a
god named tamus, now tamus was not an eternal god, just one in a seris
and such. tamus was said to be born on december 25, Then came Jesus,
and His disciples, then apostels, then in about 325 a.d. a guy named
ceaser agustus came and decided that "under this shall we fight"
meaning the sign of the cross, and thus catholism was started, and why
it's called roman catholic church. He decided no other religion,
including Biblical Christianity, would be allowed and thus no pagans,
as was mentioned people still celebrated their holiday's so he made
"Christmas". the tree comes from tamus too.

As for why Christians celebrate it, when it wasn't original to
Christianity, for me I find the answer in Romans 14:5-6

5One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day
alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

6He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that
regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that
eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that
eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

7For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.

8For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we
die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the
Lord's.

9For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he
might be Lord both of the dead and living.

So either way celebrate or not, is fine according to the Bible.

[Trance Gemini]

Thanks ROM. So basically that means that's there's nothing stopping
Christians from changing the day they celebrate Jesus' birthday :)

> > Christians to celebrate Christmas ;).- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

In Canada, we celebrate Thanksgiving in October, so we wait until
after Halloween before all the Christmas hype starts.

On Nov 22, 12:40 pm, "ROM 10:14" <john.a.ja...@gmail.com> wrote:

[LL]

On Nov 21, 2:22 pm, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:

First, there was the pagan. Then Christianity adopted the holiday
for
the celebration of Christ's birth, and adopted some of their
traditions.

LL: A better word than "adopted" would be "stolen."

Analogy: Someone kidnaps a baby, raises the child and claims he/she
was adopted.



> On Nov 21, 2:18 pm, Dave <dvor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 21, 9:41 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>

> > wrote:
>
> > > Other than the fact that the secular holiday grew out of the religious
> > > observation (which, I admit, reused and adapted some pagan
> > > holidays, at least in part to appeal to them)?
>
> > The pagan/secular holidays came first.
>
> Pagan != secular.
>

> First, there was the pagan. Then Christianity adopted the holiday for
> the celebration of Christ's birth, and adopted some of their
> traditions. And then after that Christmas became secularized.
>
>
>

> > > Christmas -- the celebration of Christ's birth -- is a major component
> > > of the Christian religious year. The fact that it may not map
> > > directly to the precise "birthday" is irrelevant, as I pointed out

> > > above. ....
>
> > it is relevant since it has nothing to do with their religion.

[Lawrey]

The short answer is because in spite of all the anomalies over wrong
dates and actual facts, Christians like to keep the PR going and
keep the infamous stories in your face. They have to keep on and on
and on with the repetition in the hope that if they do, someone will
actually start to believe it! And here's the odd thing; some people
do!
Lawrey;))

[Trance Gemini]

Great analogy. We need to take it back ;)

> > change that tradition now ...- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

Yup. It's the biggest PR scam going and the Christians are exploiting
it for everything it's worth.

I'm just trying to expose the scam ;)

> > Christians to celebrate Christmas ;).- Hide quoted text -

[Keith MacNevins]

When are you going to fix that? Don't you guys have calenders? The people in the U.S. just roll their eyes at you silly Canadians, let me tell you.

On 11/22/07, Trance Gemini <trance...@gmail.com> wrote:

In Canada, we celebrate Thanksgiving in October, so we wait until
after Halloween before all the Christmas hype starts.

On Nov 22, 12:40 pm, "ROM 10:14" <john.a.ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Trance;
>
>      What a question, and it is not too early to ask, because I see
> people putting up wreaths and holly and stuff, it's only
> Thanksgiving.  Anh...
>
>       To answer your question, a little history, long long ago in a
> galaxy really close, like here there was a pagan religon that had a
> god named tamus, now tamus was not an eternal god, just one in a seris
> and such.  tamus was said to be born on december 25, Then came Jesus,

> and His disciples, then apostels, then in about 325 a.d . a guy named

[Dev]

Jesus got run over by a reindeer
Walking home from Heaven Christmas Eve
Now you can say you don't believe in Jesus
But as for me and Santa, we believe...

[Trance Gemini]

Ooops It appears that I'm wrong yet again. Today's been a really
crappy day for that what can I say! lol.

Yes TO is guilty of calling in the Army to clear a little snow :
( <sigh>

>
> > And we're getting the snow, too.
>
> > But, back to my comment: January is the month where you really don't
> > want to go outside because it's -30 without the windchill. December
> > moderates; it snows a bit more (generally) but isn't downright
> > freezing.
>

> It's all relative- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

Cute ;) lol

> > Christians to celebrate Christmas ;).- Hide quoted text -

[Timothy 1:4a]

On Nov 22, 7:09 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
> On Nov 21, 10:21 pm, "Timothy 1:4a" <canfanor...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 21, 9:59 am, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> > wrote:
>
> > > You need to split the secular portions of the holiday from the
> > > religious, which is one reason why all the fuss over things like
> > > "Holiday Trees" is so stupid. There's both secular and religious
> > > aspects to the holiday.
>
> > > For the religious aspects, it nicely marks the at least Catholic
> > > religious year. We start with the birth in Christmas and end with the
> > > death and resurrection at Easter. <snip>
>
> > Do you spend the remaining 8 months in suspended animation?
>
> Easter runs a bit past in a bit of an epilogue, and Advent starts
> closer to November.

True and good point. But I always hated those 20+ weeks after
Pentecost.

Guess I must be on my 1,740th Sunday after Pentecost by now :)

[bonfly]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMJ_b9uV1Lo&feature=related

On Nov 22, 10:19 pm, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
wrote:
> On Nov 21, 5:46 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Nov 21, 12:41 pm, Allan C Cybulskie <allan_c_cybuls...@yahoo.ca>
> > wrote:
> > > > I am. The holiday is secular. There is no valid reason to attribute
> > > > anything Christian to it.

>
> > > Other than the fact that the secular holiday grew out of the religious
> > > observation (which, I admit, reused and adapted some pagan
> > > holidays, at least in part to appeal to them)?
>

> > > What's your point, here?
>
> > Just in case you didn't get it the first time: The holiday is secular.
> > There is no valid reason to attribute anything Christian to it.
>
> In case YOU didn't get it the first time: Other than the fact that

> the secular holiday grew out of the religious
> observation (which, I admit, reused and adapted some pagan holidays,
> at least in part to appeal to them)?
>

> The valid reason to attribute anything Christian to it is that it only
> exists as a secular holiday with the force that it has now because the
> Christians picked it FOR their religious holiday. So, basically, with
> respect to Christianversussecular we were here first.
>
> At any rate, I've already talked about how the symbolism works out,
> and that's sufficient for any religion to choose a day as their
> holiday.
>
>
>
> > If you want to celebrate Christ's birthday, celebrate it in the
> > spring. Is that so difficult to grasp? Still works with New Years and
> > Easter.
>
> No, actually, it doesn't.
>
> The birth, symbolically, works out nicer closer to New Year's.
> Easter, symbolically, works out better in the spring.
> Moving Christmas to spring doesn't work symbolically, so there is no
> reason for Christianity to do it. And not celebrating the exact date
> is not a concern, even if it is radically off.
>
> And finally, you do not get to tell us when we should celebrate our
> religious holidays.
>
>
>
> > Then you can celebrate it with traditional religious wrappings and not
> > spoil our secular fun.
>
> Well, why don't YOU move "secular Christmas" to some other time then?
> We were there first (wrt secularversusreligious).

>
> > > Christmas -- the celebration of Christ's birth -- is a major component
> > > of the Christian religious year. The fact that it may not map
> > > directly to the precise "birthday" is irrelevant, as I pointed out

> > > above. It is convenient for modern Christians to maintain the
> > > traditional timing, especially since the symbolism fits nicely --
> > > especially with the formal "end of the year" ending in the Spring,
> > > which has a lot of nice symbolism for a rebirth. So I fail to see why
> > > we -- or anyone -- should really care about how the dates don't match
> > > up well. Rituals are always, at least in part, symbolic, and the
> > > symbolism works.
>
> > God's word isn't supposed to be convenient is it?
>
> There is nothing in God's word that says "celebrate Christmas". It
> does say "Form and maintain a religion", and convenience and symbolism
> matters in creating rituals for those who are in a religion to partake
> in.
>
>
>
> > Paganism is evil isn't it?
>
> And what is done at Christmas religiously isn't pagan, and if the
> rituals are aimed at God paganism doesn't enter into it. The rituals
> are what we do in the terms of formal community building and the like;
> their origins are far less important than what they achieve in that
> sense.
>
>
>
> > Don't you want to keep Christ's holiday pure and Keep the Christ in
> > Christmas so to speak?
>
> I have no issues with secular or even pagan rituals being run at the
> same time. The commercialism is a bit annoying, however.
>
> > > It is, as you CLAIMED to understand above, both a secular and
> > > religious holiday. The religious holiday in its traditions and timing
> > > works, which is why modern Christians should have no problems
> > > maintaining it as it is celebrated and has been celebrated for quite
> > > some time. We thus celebrate both. Really, what is your problem with
> > > the religious holiday and secular holiday remaining the same day,
> > > other than that some idiots can't separate the two and insist that
> > > anything called "Christmas" must be strictly Christian and thus
> > > offensive to non-Christians?- Hide quoted text -
>
> > Your misinterpreting me. My question is why do Christians celebrate
> > Christmas.
>
> And I have answered that, repeatedly.
>
>
>
> > I am stating that Christmas is a Secular holiday Not a Christian
> > holiday.
>
> Except it clearly ISN'T, or you wouldn't be asking us to move our
> religious holiday away from it, now would you?

[Trance Gemini]

"Double, double toil and trouble;
Fire burn, and caldron bubble. "

> > religious holiday away from it, now would you?- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

;)

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

From my Blog. A more complete version of the original posting :)

Every so often in Toronto, the PC Brigade (politically correct police)

starts making noise about the "right" way to handle Christmas.

Is it PC to say Merry Christmas if you're not a Christian or should we
be saying Happy Holidays and not offend other religions?

If we're going to have a Christmas tree shouldn't we also have symbols
from other religions?

Blah Blah Blah ....

I sit there listening to all these various and sundry Media types
thinking:

What planet did they come from?
Do they apply these research methods (none) to other topics they talk
about?

Why does it seem that Everyone is talking out of their ass on this
one?

Everyone appears to be operating from the basic fallacy that Christmas
is a Christian religious holiday. A fallacy perpetrated by the
Christian church with their "Let's put Christ back into Christmas"
campaigns.

The fact is that it makes absolutely No Sense that Christians
celebrate Christmas.

1. Christ (assuming that he existed) was Not born in December. The

closest date they have to his birth is sometime in the early spring,
some say early September. What is known is that he wasn't born in
December.

2. The Christmas story (Nativity story) is questionable even in
Biblical terms. It's only spoken of in one place in the Bible and is

one of the major Biblical stories that remains unconfirmed anywhere,
including anywhere else in the Bible.

3. All of the traditions associated with Christmas are Pagan with
origins in ancient German (Geol or Yule) and Roman (Saturnalia)
festivals.
4. All of the recent (last 100 years) traditions, Santa Claus, etc.
are secular and were promoted by the retail industry.
5. Even the blessing of Peace and Goodwill came out of the politics of

the Industrial revolution and was directed at strikers, and Not the
Bible.

I think it's time that Christians recognized that the current
tradition of Christmas is not a religious, but a secular holiday,
based on pagan traditions. Perhaps they should find a day closer to
the day that Jesus was actually born and celebrate that day more in
accordance with their biblical and religious traditions? Just a
suggestion.

This is precisely the reason that the Puritans refused to celebrate
it. They knew that celebrating Christmas was inconsistent with their
Biblical belief system. They were smart enough to take the Christ Out
of Christmas, unlike certain Christians today, who for reasons known
only to themselves, want to put Christ back into Christmas.

So why did the ancient churches want to hijack these pagan traditions
and celebrations? Because they couldn't convince the populace to stop
celebrating them. Once the church realized that, they went with option
2, call the holidays christian, get people to include the church in
the celebrations, and gradually take them over presumably in the hopes
that people would eventually abandon the pagan part.

Unfortunately for the church, this plan only worked periodically, and
today we're back to celebrating Christmas with an emphasis on those
evil Pagan traditions.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not being a Scrooge here.

I love Christmas with all its trimmings and have celebrated it all my
life.

For me, Christmas is a time for family and friends to get together, to
share in the joys and pleasures of the season, to remember that
kindness, love, and sharing are paramount ... and to just have some
fun.

I also love seeing people from All beliefs and religions celebrating
this secular Christmas.

Secularist Atheists (like me), Sikhs, Hindus, Jews, Christians, etc.
can get together on this one, holding hands around the Christmas tree
and singing Jingle Bells :)

Would keeping Christ out of Christmas be such a bad thing? It would
certainly make more sense to me!

[Trance Gemini]

Thanks for the article. You're right it is interesting.

> interesting article on this athttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_Domini- Hide quoted text -

[LL]

On Nov 22, 3:18 pm, "Keith MacNevins" <kmacnev...@gmail.com> wrote:
> When are you going to fix that? Don't you guys have calenders? The people in
> the U.S. just roll their eyes at you silly Canadians, let me tell you.

LL: What are they supposed to "fix," Keith? They have created a
different day from the American one. Why should Canadians blindly
follow the Americans?

Americans could just as easily change their Thanksgiving day to the
Canadian one. Why don't we?

I haven't noticed people in the US rolling their eyes at Canadians--
except, perhaps, for their refusal to have real separation of church
and state.

But there is plenty of Canadian things we could emulate--their
national health plan, for example. Now there IS something for the
Canadians to roll their eyes at Americans for.

>
> On 11/22/07, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > In Canada, we celebrate Thanksgiving in October, so we wait until
> > after Halloween before all the Christmas hype starts.
>
> > On Nov 22, 12:40 pm, "ROM 10:14" <john.a.ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Trance;
>
> > > What a question, and it is not too early to ask, because I see
> > > people putting up wreaths and holly and stuff, it's only
> > > Thanksgiving. Anh...
>
> > > To answer your question, a little history, long long ago in a
> > > galaxy really close, like here there was a pagan religon that had a
> > > god named tamus, now tamus was not an eternal god, just one in a seris
> > > and such. tamus was said to be born on december 25, Then came Jesus,

> > > and His disciples, then apostels, then in about 325 a.d. a guy named

> --
> Keith A. MacNevins
> Ambassador From Hell
> Copyright- Hide quoted text -

[LL]

On Nov 23, 4:41 am, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I sit there listening to all these various and sundry Media types
thinking:


What planet did they come from?

LL: I suspect they came from the US--or at least their ideas do.

[ROM 10:14]

Trance;

That's right and some people celebrate everyday. :-)

[ROM 10:14]

Tance;
Sounds smart, maybe we should try that too, traffic gets pretty
bad, the horrible thing about it though is the day after Thanksgiving
sales, when everybody is all Chrismasy and someone behind you
accedienatly bumps you with a cart, people go off. And this during
"the most wonderful time of the year"?

[Trance Gemini]

Yes you can :) And That would be more consistent with the Bible than
celebrating Christmas :)

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

LOL. Don't tell Them that ;) You'll be eaten alive in Canada for even
suggesting such a thing!

> ...
>
> read more >>- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

Thanks LL :).

Our Thanksgiving is a completely different tradition and history than
the American one.

http://www.twilightbridge.com/hobbies/festivals/thanksgiving/canada/

Quote.
The history of Thanksgiving in Canada goes back to an English
explorer, Martin Frobisher, who had been trying to find a northern
passage to the Orient. He did not succeed but he did establish a
settlement in Northern America. In the year 1578, he held a formal
ceremony, in what is now called Newfoundland, to give thanks for
surviving the long journey. This is considered the first Canadian
Thanksgiving. Other settlers arrived and continued these ceremonies.
He was later knighted and had an inlet of the Atlantic Ocean in
northern Canada named after him - Frobisher Bay.

At the same time, French settlers, having crossed the ocean and
arrived in Canada with explorer Samuel de Champlain, also held huge
feasts of thanks. They even formed 'The Order of Good Cheer' and
gladly shared their food with their Indian neighbours.
End Quote.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Trance Gemini]

And now that the Canadian dollar is higher than the American one, a
lot of those people will be Canadians lol

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[ROM 10:14]

Trance;
I also think it is interesting that in the States we have AFA
(American family Association) they just got made at Lowe's (a hardware
store) for calling "Christmas trees" "Holiday trees" Lowe's actually
apologized! What?!?! Honestly who cares? Not only that, but when was
the last time during spring that a person went to walmart to buy some
plants, and a tree and asked for a Christmas tree instead of an
evergreen? Who would get upset?

[ROM 10:14]

Agreed! ;-)

[Keith MacNevins]

How silly to celebrate Thanksgiving a month or so early. Next they'll have Christmas in July. BTW I am really tired of finding Canadian pennies and quarters in among my pocket change. Why don't those Canadians spend their Canadian money in Canada? Just because the superior dollar is accepted in Canada is no reason for them to dump their currency over the border.

[bonfly]

... or just tazered to death.

> ...
>
> read more >>

[ROM 10:14]

Keith;
I noticed at the bottom of your post you say Copyright. As if
ANYONE would every copy something you said. Is it so hard for you to
play nicely? I am extremely patriotic and yet, there are some
countries that are alright too. have a heart. Please.

[Trance Gemini]

No truer words have been spoken ;). We're up to 3 that I'm aware of!

[Trance Gemini]

That's the attitude I'm talking about in my post. First of all they
Are Christmas trees and second of all the AFA should Not be getting
upset about it because it's not a religious holiday. Soooo silly.

Every year the silliness continues ;)

> > Blah Blah Blah ....- Hide quoted text -

[bonfly]

3 in 5 weeks

> ...
>
> read more >>

[Trance Gemini]

Yup. <sigh> And they were billed as something the cops could use
instead of shooting and killing. Not exactly working out that way is
it?

[ROM 10:14]

I am a Bible believing conservative Christian, and personally I do not
have any problem with someone going to lowes and asking for an
evergreen tree, or a Christmas tree, or a tamus tree, the only problem
I have with asking for something is when it's done in the wrong
spirit, as in just doing it to be rude.

[Trance Gemini]

Is that what happened?

> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[yeshu2004@gmail.com]

Research by eminent scholars has established the fact that Jesus'
birthday was on December 25. Since it coincided with pagan Roman
festival, many believed it was adapted to suit pagan sentiments. When
Constantine officially made December 25 the birthday of Jesus, he had
accepted the date followed by early Christians, some of them were
contemporaries of Jesus. That tradition was followed in early
churches. Since Christianity was an obscure religion at that time,
December 25 was observed as birthday only by Christians. When
Christianity became global, the official announcement of the birth
date by Constantine was not a surprise to Christians in other parts of
the world, especially the Jerusalem Church, because December 25 was
observed by all these churches bsfore Constantine became a
Christian.Constantine fixed the date only after other Christians were
observing December 25 as the birthday of Jesus. There was no gala
celebration by early Christians, only a holy mass and prayer service
on December 25. Since December 25 coincided with the pagan festival of
Romans, it led to fantastic interpretations at a later stage by
atheists and other critics. But the most important historical fact
that we cannot ignore is that there was no oposition by the Jerusalem
Church when Constantine made December 25 as the offical birth date of
Jesus.They could not oppose because Constantine had announced only the
correct date. But atheists and other critics howl by giving foolish
interpretations just to satiate their sadistic thirst.

[bonfly]

rear dollop from male cow

On Nov 24, 12:51 pm, "yeshu2...@gmail.com" <yeshu2...@gmail.com>
wrote: