Throw the Dice
Burton Johnston
<bjohnston247@gmail.com>Yes, throw the dice. Live dangerously. Sure, be afraid, be very
afraid. But, live dangerously. In your work don't be afraid of the
sixty hour week in order to finish your brilliant creation. Love with
a passion! Make the way of Jesus your way, and soon aquire the
courage to speak of your new relationship with others.
Many smart Christian thinkers admit there's no real proof of God
other than statements like "Consider the wonders of the universe,
the possibility of life all over this universe, and maybe in other
companion universes, too. What super-being created all these
wonders?" And "Why is there anything and not just nothing."
Still, there is no formal proof God exists. So in committing to God
through Jesus Christ there is definitely risk. As the man said, "I
believe, help my unbelief." Only one way to possess faith - make "a
leap of faith."
One day 3000+ years back Moses stood before a burning bush that spoke
(myth). Commissioned by God to confront Pharoah in Egypt and free
his enslaved people, Moses naturally asked "When Pharoah shouts "Sure,
I'll free them once I know who's going to make me - You and whose
army?" And God replies "Moses, tell Pharoah, *I am who I am sent
you." This a clever bit of philosophy but it is not a definite clear-
cut description of God Almighty. I am who I am is indefinite. So,
there's Uncertainty, big time right at the heart of the Jewish-
Christian religions.
Today plenty of Christians in North America and Africa think
they and God tolerate only a perfect religion - a Christianity that
has Absolute truth in all its doctrine. Because that doctrine is
based on the Absolute truth of an inerrant Bible. No uncertainty can
creep into the mind of these ultra-conservative Christians.
Today, there are clever scientists like Christopher Hitchens, Sam
Harris, and Richard Dawkins who preach God does not exist. They think
Christianity is a big waste of time for society and a foolish
diversion of precious human resources. They also think the words of
Jesus "Don't think I've come to bring peace on earth. I've
here with a sword. Yes division is now the operative word" are only
too true. In other words Christianity and most other religions are
one BPITA. Stephen Hawking, the brilliant physicist who figured out
the ways of Black Holes along with great insights into the
origins of the universe(s), thinks this knowledge renders him an
expert competent to pronouce on God's non-existence. I personally go
with those philosophers and scientists who clearly point out science
reaches beyond its area of competence when dealing with the non-
material, spiritual realities. In other words, even the brilliant
young man/woman who eventually emerges with a "theory of everything"
should humbly refrain from shoving God out of his creation. Why?
Billions of people of diverse continents over millenia have heard God
clearly say "Put all your stock in me for I
assure you I'm here to stay. I am going nowhere!"
Consequently we Christians should be marked in this dangerous world
with guts (not fanaticism).
Paul Tillich, one of the great Christian thinkers of the 20 Century
wrote a book, Courage to Be. There, Tillich reminded us to be fully
human we need lots of courage. Courage derived from a
loyal relationship to the Eternal One. We can't ask God to make
our lives full of certainty. No, following a Mommy-Jesus won't hack
it. Tis hard to wipe (expunge) the Cross of Jesus from Christianity.
I think those skeptical scientist above should consider one of the
basic foundations of modern science - the uncertainty principle.
Heisenberg 's principle was not warmly embraced by Albert Einstein or
with it other counter-intuitive findings of quantum mechanics. Albert
exclaimed, quoting " I, at any rate, am convinced that He(God) does
not throw dice. Now, next century,
Einstein obviously was not infallible. And quantum theory and its
uncertainty is in the ascendancy. (Maybe God who has lived an
infinite time needs some excitement and goes to the heavenly
Las Vegas once in a while.)
We all live in a world of uncertainty. We don't always
like it, but that's the nature of reality. So modern progressive
Christianity is bidding adios to ironclad inerrant scripture and
now framing its beliefs anew. Scripture errors are being
acknowledged. No more are Christians so sure-fired certain of our
dogma. 1. We know our beliefs are time conditioned.
St. Paul, in his better moments, told us love of God and our neighbor
is the great rock of existence. All the rest is passing away. Our
knowledge is limited. It's often incomplete. 2. Much of the New
Testament, and Old, is myth. Not strictly historical writing but
imaginative stories with a wandering navigational star and virgin
birth or a Jesus who walks on water depicted as an ace wine maker.
Etc. Christianity is in the process of accessing modern physics,
astronomy, cosmology, historical studies, social science and
phsychology...... to interpret Bible stories and make them once more
meaningful to modern folk. Christianity is throwing the dice. We are
learning to live with uncertainty. Who knows what will be the
result?
+ In quantum mechanics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle states a
fundamental limit on the accuracy with which certain pairs of physical
properties of a particle, such as position and momentum, can be
simultaneously known. In other words, the more precisely one property
is measured, the less precisely the other can be controlled,
determined, or known.
Werner Heisenberg in 1927
Neil Kelsey
<neil.m.kelsey@gmail.com>On Nov 28, 2:30 pm, Burton Johnston <bjohnston...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.burtjohnston.com/dice/dice.html
>
> Yes, throw the dice. Live dangerously. Sure, be afraid, be very
> afraid.
Of what?
> But, live dangerously. In your work don't be afraid of the
> sixty hour week in order to finish your brilliant creation. Love with
> a passion! Make the way of Jesus your way, and soon aquire the
> courage to speak of your new relationship with others.
What is dangerous about making the way of Jesus "my way"? I know what
I (an atheist) think is dangerous about being a Christian, but I'd
like to hear what you, a Christian, think is dangerous about being a
Christian.
> Many smart Christian thinkers admit there's no real proof of God
> other than statements like "Consider the wonders of the universe,
> the possibility of life all over this universe, and maybe in other
> companion universes, too. What super-being created all these
> wonders?"
Argument from incredulity fallacies are not real proof of God.
> And "Why is there anything and not just nothing."
Unanswered questions are not real proof of God either.
> Still, there is no formal proof God exists.
Nor is there an informal one. There isn't any valid evidence that God
exists, period.
> So in committing to God
> through Jesus Christ there is definitely risk.
Of what? I know what *I* (an atheist) think is risky about being a
Christian, but I'd like to know what you, a Christian, think is risky
about being a Christian.
> As the man said, "I
> believe, help my unbelief." Only one way to possess faith - make "a
> leap of faith."
I prefer reason, thanks anyway. My reason tells me God is a figment of
your imagination.
> One day 3000+ years back Moses stood before a burning bush that spoke
> (myth).
Says you. Other Christians disagree. Why should I believe you, and not
them?
> Commissioned by God to confront Pharoah in Egypt and free
> his enslaved people, Moses naturally asked "When Pharoah shouts "Sure,
> I'll free them once I know who's going to make me - You and whose
> army?" And God replies "Moses, tell Pharoah, *I am who I am sent
> you." This a clever bit of philosophy but it is not a definite clear-
> cut description of God Almighty. I am who I am is indefinite. So,
> there's Uncertainty, big time right at the heart of the Jewish-
> Christian religions.
So why be Christian?
> Today plenty of Christians in North America and Africa think
> they and God tolerate only a perfect religion - a Christianity that
> has Absolute truth in all its doctrine. Because that doctrine is
> based on the Absolute truth of an inerrant Bible. No uncertainty can
> creep into the mind of these ultra-conservative Christians.
>
> Today, there are clever scientists like Christopher Hitchens, Sam
> Harris, and Richard Dawkins who preach God does not exist.
Hitchens is a journalist, not a scientist.
> They think
> Christianity is a big waste of time for society and a foolish
> diversion of precious human resources. They also think the words of
> Jesus "Don't think I've come to bring peace on earth. I've
> here with a sword. Yes division is now the operative word" are only
> too true. In other words Christianity and most other religions are
> one BPITA. Stephen Hawking, the brilliant physicist who figured out
> the ways of Black Holes along with great insights into the
> origins of the universe(s), thinks this knowledge renders him an
> expert competent to pronouce on God's non-existence. I personally go
> with those philosophers and scientists who clearly point out science
> reaches beyond its area of competence when dealing with the non-
> material, spiritual realities.
I think scientists are perfectly qualified to declare that "non-
material, spiritual realities" contradict actual reality.
> In other words, even the brilliant
> young man/woman who eventually emerges with a "theory of everything"
> should humbly refrain from shoving God out of his creation. Why?
> Billions of people of diverse continents over millenia have heard God
> clearly say "Put all your stock in me for I
> assure you I'm here to stay. I am going nowhere!"
No they haven't. The vast majority of Christians do not claim that God
ever told them anything, let alone billions of them. And the ones who
do have turned out to be lying, dreaming, or hallucinating.
> Consequently we Christians should be marked in this dangerous world
> with guts (not fanaticism).
Christians are helping to *make* this a dangerous world.
> Paul Tillich, one of the great Christian thinkers of the 20 Century
> wrote a book, Courage to Be. There, Tillich reminded us to be fully
> human we need lots of courage. Courage derived from a
> loyal relationship to the Eternal One.
So you think that atheists aren't fully human. This just underlines
the point of a thread I started earlier today, called "The
Dehumanizing Effects of Button-Pressing."
I think it is immoral (bordering on criminal) of you to go around
trying to convince people that they and/or others aren't fully human.
> We can't ask God to make
> our lives full of certainty. No, following a Mommy-Jesus won't hack
> it. Tis hard to wipe (expunge) the Cross of Jesus from Christianity.
>
> I think those skeptical scientist above should consider one of the
> basic foundations of modern science - the uncertainty principle.
> Heisenberg 's principle was not warmly embraced by Albert Einstein or
> with it other counter-intuitive findings of quantum mechanics. Albert
> exclaimed, quoting " I, at any rate, am convinced that He(God) does
> not throw dice. Now, next century,
> Einstein obviously was not infallible. And quantum theory and its
> uncertainty is in the ascendancy. (Maybe God who has lived an
> infinite time needs some excitement and goes to the heavenly
> Las Vegas once in a while.)
>
> We all live in a world of uncertainty.
Not if God exists and is omnipotent.
> We don't always
> like it, but that's the nature of reality.
If God exists then the universe runs by magic and science (including
quantum physics) is a big, giant, illusion. Those are the implications
of your religious belief. So which is it, do you believe God exists or
not?
> So modern progressive
> Christianity is bidding adios to ironclad inerrant scripture and
> now framing its beliefs anew.
> Scripture errors are being
> acknowledged.
But Scripture is not being altered.
> No more are Christians so sure-fired certain of our
> dogma. 1. We know our beliefs are time conditioned.
Can you let the rest of us know what that means?
> St. Paul, in his better moments, told us love of God and our neighbor
> is the great rock of existence. All the rest is passing away. Our
> knowledge is limited. It's often incomplete. 2. Much of the New
> Testament, and Old, is myth.
How much? And which parts? The part about God existing? Why bother
being a Christian if Christianity is a myth?
> Not strictly historical writing but
> imaginative stories with a wandering navigational star and virgin
> birth or a Jesus who walks on water depicted as an ace wine maker.
> Etc. Christianity is in the process of accessing modern physics,
> astronomy, cosmology, historical studies, social science and
> phsychology......
Christianity just gets stupider when it tries to integrate with
science.
> to interpret Bible stories and make them once more
> meaningful to modern folk. Christianity is throwing the dice. We are
> learning to live with uncertainty. Who knows what will be the
> result?
We've been living with uncertainty for as long as we've been alive.
> + In quantum mechanics, the Heisenberg uncertainty principle states a
> fundamental limit on the accuracy with which certain pairs of physical
> properties of a particle, such as position and momentum, can be
> simultaneously known. In other words, the more precisely one property
> is measured, the less precisely the other can be controlled,
> determined, or known.
>
> Werner Heisenberg in 1927
Quantum mechanics is not evidence that God exists.
friendhis@yahoo.com
<friendhis@yahoo.com>mythical?
On Nov 28, 2:30 pm, Burton Johnston <bjohnston...@gmail.com> wrote:
Observer
<mayorskid@gmail.com>You rolled the dice ,to chose a belief system and it's snake eyes.
(Christianity)
You loose !
The bet , your human dignity and even your humanity. Both were
fortified by accepting this sadomasochist, misanthropic, primitive,
superstitious filth.
Psychonomist
On Nov 28, 2:30 pm, Burton Johnston <bjohnston...@gmail.com> wrote:
> http://www.burtjohnston.com/dice/dice.htm
>
e_space
<espace1984@gmail.com>
xeno
<69blacklab@gmail.com>On Nov 28, 2:30 pm, Burton Johnston <bjohnston...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Today, there are clever scientists like Christopher Hitchens, Sam
> Harris, and Richard Dawkins who preach God does not exist.
So what? What do you care? You obviously believe otherwise. Do these
guys stop you from doing what you're doing or what? What's the real
problem here?
> Paul Tillich, one of the great Christian thinkers of the 20 Century
> wrote a book, Courage to Be. There, Tillich reminded us to be fully
> human we need lots of courage. Courage derived from a
> loyal relationship to the Eternal One.
It takes more courage not to depend on that sort of thing. After all,
wouldn't you also agree that this would be a scary proposition? But
what does Tillich really know? Everybody is fully human. Just because
somebody has the courage to believe in unsubstantiated things doesn't
make them better than somebody who doesn't. I feel insulted. Is that
the idea?
> I think those skeptical scientist above should consider one of the
> basic foundations of modern science - the uncertainty principle.
Two pairs of properties of a particle. The more precisely one is
known, the less precise the other. More precisely momentum is known,
controlled, or determined, the position is less known, controlled, or
determined. So, in the quantum level, prediction is uncertain. If
that's true for any *knower*, *controller*, or *determiner* that's
applicable to whomever you want somebody else not to be skeptical
about. I don't get it. What's your point? Go throw some dice, & chill
out.
friendhis@yahoo.com
<friendhis@yahoo.com>On Nov 29, 5:37 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> what is your criteria for determining the parts of the bible that
> aren't mythical?
I think it's all true, so it doesn't break down into parts for me.
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>
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Observer
<mayorskid@gmail.com>On Nov 29, 11:46 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Burton,
>
> This is the third thread you've started with a copy and paste from your
> site but you have not responded to a single post in any of the threads that
> you started.
>
> Please note that this is debating group, not an advertising group for your
> blog or news articles.
>
> You will be banned as a spammer if you start another thread without
> responding to any of the posts in any of the three previous threads you've
> started.
>
> This will occur without further notification.
Observer
I am in total agreement , Kitty.
Regards
Dave
>
> If you're not interested in debating, this isn't the group for you.
>
> Trance Gemini, Moderator, AvC
>
> This warning has been forwarded to the Mod Board and the Owners.
>
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>Observer
On Nov 29, 11:46 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Burton,
>
> This is the third thread you've started with a copy and paste from your
> site but you have not responded to a single post in any of the threads that
> you started.
>
> Please note that this is debating group, not an advertising group for your
> blog or news articles.
>
> You will be banned as a spammer if you start another thread without
> responding to any of the posts in any of the three previous threads you've
> started.
>
> This will occur without further notification.
I am in total agreement , Kitty.
VeryHarry
<davenorthey@gmail.com>studies along the lines of what is presented at most universities in the world. Studies
that many, many North Americans are grossly ignorant of. In my view, Christian interpretation
of the Old and New Testaments are based on what is really 1st century theology which
is now very outdated and detrimental to the cause of Jesus in the world.
So its not important whether anyone responds to my posts. The fundamentalist response
is always the same, anyway. But its important I advertize the modern ideas re
the Bible and people then read the
modern theologians I refer to. Then in the future, not far off, everyone can debate in an
informed rational manner. Why would you interfere in this process? I don't care what
people believe but I'm tired of outdated, ignorant posts on the Christian groups.
Like scientifically discredited creationism. Genesis 1 is a myth. Yes a myth
and no Christian is doing Christ service by refusing to call this myth a myth.
Trance Gemini
<trancegemini7@gmail.com>
"Heaven No! I Won't Go!" --Neil Kelsey
“You can safely assume you have created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates the same people you do.” --Annie Lamott (paraphrased)
"To no form of religion is woman indebted for one impulse of freedom..." --Susan B. Anthony
http://newatheism.blogspot.com/
Freethinkers and atheists Google Group
http://groups.google.com/group/FTAA?hl=en
Ian
<igbetts09@btinternet.com>|
Old or new its all the same to Atheists it fantasy land and nothing else.
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Steve in Virginia
<resurgam167@yahoo.com>6 days - despite decades of evidence that shows otherwise. A global
flood destroyed all life on earth 4-5000 years ago? A talking snake
told a young woman to eat a piece of enchanted fruit and turned god's
perfect creation on it's head? The dead come back to life? The sun
stopped in the sky (we'll ignore that fact that it's the earth that
had to stop turning on its axis)?
And really....a million-plus people traveled across the Egyptian
desert during the reign of Ramses but there isn't a shred of
archeological evidence - not a single potsherd- that such a massive
migration ever occurred? A woman was impregnated by magic? People
speak different languages because god got pissed that they were
building a big tower? Snakes and donkeys can talk? The earth sits upon
pillars?
And last, but certainly not least, which of the creation fables is
true: Gen 1:2 the earth was created underwater, or Gen 2:3 the earth
was dry?
Just curious!
Steve
On Nov 30 2011, 1:04 am, "friend...@yahoo.com" <friend...@yahoo.com>
wrote:
LL
<llpens3601@gmail.com>On Nov 29 2011, 5:37 am, e_space <espace1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> what is your criteria for determining the parts of the bible that
> aren't mythical?
>
more logicsl to reject the whole thing, seeing so much of it has been
proven wrong, illogical, contradictory and impossible. In fact it even
gets the geography wrong. What's the use of using the bible for
anything at all? There are plenty of sources of knowledge to get
valid, supported information from. Why use a fairy tale of a book that
has been proven to be absolutely wrong on so many fronts? Its like
being served a bad egg and saying you'll just eat the good parts.
.....
LL
<llpens3601@gmail.com>On Nov 29 2011, 11:46 pm, Trance Gemini <trancegemi...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>
> This is the third thread you've started with a copy and paste from your
> site but you have not responded to a single post in any of the threads that
> you started.
.......
> Please note that this is debating group, not an advertising group for your
> blog or news articles.
>
> You will be banned as a spammer if you start another thread without
> responding to any of the posts in any of the three previous threads you've
> started.
>
> This will occur without further notification.
>
> If you're not interested in debating, this isn't the group for you.
>
> Trance Gemini, Moderator, AvC
>
> This warning has been forwarded to the Mod Board and the Owners.
>