Was the South different? If so, why? How does this explain the evolution of US history down to 1860?
Brooks Simpson
Was the South different? This begs the question, how do you define the
South? It also begs the question, different from what?
If "the South" you construct is different, why?
And so what? What's the impact? Who cares? Why?
Barry
qualities which were more common in the South than in the North. People of
the South tended to be more conservative and more religiously fundamental.
The South was more rural than the North and the social gospel movement was
not nearly as well accepted there as it was in the North. Today, the South
is still more conservative & religiously fundamental, and the influence of
Southern states continues to pull the whole country toward the right. I
doubt anybody cares, though no doubt some of the gay marriage & aborticide
promoters wish that the Southern states would have been allowed to remain
independent.
"Brooks Simpson" <bdsim...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1156813737.6...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
DELONGPREBUM
Brooks Simpson wrote:
> One ought to wrestle with the assumption of the post of the moment.
>
> Was the South different?
Yes, it was. Presence of many enslaved Blacks. This is the NUMBER ONE
feature of the South and you can't get away from it.
>>>>>>> This begs the question, how do you define the South?
Geographically: It consists of the 11 states of the Confederacy, other
slave states, and a spillover into some "border" states.
Culturally: A fairly homogenous White population descended mostly from
immigrants from the British Isles and living in the above areas.
Religiously: Conservative Baptist, literalist, demon-haunted.
Socially: Strong belief in Slavery, initially shared with the North.
Strong attachment to hierarchy among Whites as well.
Climactically: It's damned hot and humid in the South.
Agriculturally: Reliance on one crop, COTTON.
Educationally: Lack of importance attached to general education. See
Jethro Bodine.
>>>>>> It also begs the question, different from what?
>From other parts of the USA where: slavery withered away, immigrants
from other parts of the World arrived, non-Protestant religons made
inroads, and individual merit triumphed over descent and family
connections. Northern agriculture was more diverse and the North was
more open to industrialization and improvements in transportation at
public expense. Education became a leveller, rather than common racial
descent.
> If "the South" you construct is different, why?
>
> And so what? What's the impact? Who cares?
4 million Black slaves cared.
ray o'hara
"Barry" <bhac...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:VpNIg.2206$o42...@tornado.texas.rr.com...
i'm amazed you dragged yourself away from your emmet till day celebration.
F.C. Jameson
> Brooks Simpson wrote:
>
>
>>One ought to wrestle with the assumption of the post of the moment.
>>
>>Was the South different?
>
>
>
> Yes, it was. Presence of many enslaved Blacks. This is the NUMBER ONE
> feature of the South and you can't get away from it.
>
>
>
>>>>>>>>This begs the question, how do you define the South?
>
>
> Geographically: It consists of the 11 states of the Confederacy, other
> slave states, and a spillover into some "border" states.
>
> Culturally: A fairly homogenous White population descended mostly from
> immigrants from the British Isles and living in the above areas.
>
> Religiously: Conservative Baptist, literalist, demon-haunted.
>
> Socially: Strong belief in Slavery, initially shared with the North.
> Strong attachment to hierarchy among Whites as well.
>
> Climactically: It's damned hot and humid in the South.
>
> Agriculturally: Reliance on one crop, COTTON.
>
> Educationally: Lack of importance attached to general education. See
> Jethro Bodine.
For what it's worth, IMO, you come very close to the truth. If you
could withhold the venom, you may be able to make some serious
contributions. When I say you come close, I think you see a lot of the
surface which most people either overlook or ignore. But I doubt you
recognize just how it fits together.
What strikes me as odd is that two people with totally opposing feelings
for the South can see it better than most of it's detractors or defenders.
DELONGPREBUM
***
Spare me your condescending bullshit and die. How's that for venom?
F.C. Jameson
Why should I ? I demand the right to extend Christian charity to all
of God's less articulate creations.
>How's that for venom?
Much like that of an Asp. Where did the asp originate ?
Rambler III
"F.C. Jameson" <"nick_at_noonREMOVE"@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9NXIg.30842$j8....@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
> DELONGPREBUM wrote:
> >How's that for venom?
>
> Much like that of an Asp. Where did the asp originate ?
Your spellchecker is not turned on. "Ass" is spelled with two "s".
ray o'hara
"F.C. Jameson" <"nick_at_noonREMOVE"@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:9NXIg.30842$j8....@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>> >
>
> Why should I ? I demand the right to extend Christian charity to all
> of God's less articulate creations.
>
round'em up, ship'em out. just how jesus would have handled it.
you"christian" types have the amazing ability to talk out of both sides of
your ass.
F.C. Jameson
>
>"F.C. Jameson" <"nick_at_noonREMOVE"@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:9NXIg.30842$j8....@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>>> >
>> > Spare me your condescending bullshit and die.
>>
>> Why should I ? I demand the right to extend Christian charity to all
>> of God's less articulate creations.
>>
> even if they are tapdancing on the sidewalks right?
I don't care what he does on the sidewalk as long as he does it in a
"dignified" manner. That was your word, remember ?
>round'em up, ship'em out. just how jesus would have handled it.
>
>you"christian" types have the amazing ability to talk out of both sides of
>your ass.
And what are you ? Jew or Muslim ?
scribe7716
Brooks Simpson wrote:
> One ought to wrestle with the assumption of the post of the moment.
>
> Was the South different? This begs the question, how do you define the
> South? It also begs the question, different from what?
Here, IMO, is some ways that the antebellum south was different than
the antebellum north.
1) Adherence to slavery decades after it had been banned in the
north... and the rest of the western world.
2) Heavy economic reliance on staple crop agriculture... cotton
primarily but also tobacco, rice, and hemp. That led to planter
domination of the best lands in the south and a political, social, and
cultural influence far beyond their numbers.
3) A more rigidly stratified caste system of:
o big mule planters on the top rail.
o the "respectable" professions... lawyers, doctors, clergy of the
proper denominations, politicians, et al.
o a middle class composed of yeoman farmers and the "necessary"
professions... smiths, shopkeepers, barbers, innkeepers, et al.
o subsistence farmers,
o hill men... those highly independent inhabitants of the highlands who
ran some free range hogs, grew some corn, supplemented the dinner table
with their rifles, and pretty much wanted to be left the hell alone.
o the "poor white trash," "clay-eaters."
o blacks... both free and slave.
Of course a southerner... white southerner that is... could with hard
work, opportunity, and some luck move up in the ranks but not with the
same frequency as in the north where a bobbin boy became governor of
Massachusetts, and rail splitter president of the United States,
4) an assumption that southerners... some, many, most, all (?)... were
Cavaliers to the northern Roundheads.
5) a general disdain for the mechanical arts and the northern "mudsills
and greasy mechanics" who excelled at them.
6) a lingering distrust of democracy that make the southern states
slow... compared to northern states... to come to universal white male
suffrage, elimation of property requirements to vote, etc. IIRC, South
Carolina never did come to it antebellum.
It's important to note that none of these difference were imposed on
the south by the north. They were all southern choices. And it's
important to note that as Avery O. Craven wrote, "taken as a whole, a
section which contained social and political elements as diverse as
Arkansas and Charleston, eastern Tennessee and Tidewater Virginia,
upland North Carolina and western Texas, can hardly be thought of as
forming a solid block of interests or ideas."
ray o'hara
> On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:24:04 -0400, "ray o'hara" <r...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >"F.C. Jameson" <"nick_at_noonREMOVE"@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:9NXIg.30842$j8....@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
> >>> >
> >> > Spare me your condescending bullshit and die.
> >>
> >> Why should I ? I demand the right to extend Christian charity to all
> >> of God's less articulate creations.
> >>
> > even if they are tapdancing on the sidewalks right?
>
> I don't care what he does on the sidewalk as long as he does it in a
> "dignified" manner. That was your word, remember ?
>
no i didn't use dignified, but you did say tap dancing was a lynching
offence
> >round'em up, ship'em out. just how jesus would have handled it.
> >
> >you"christian" types have the amazing ability to talk out of both sides
of
> >your ass.
>
> And what are you ? Jew or Muslim ?
a freethinker.
i'm sure jesusd would agree with you that any who don't want to be rounded
up should be killed.
fortunately for you religion i sa hokey myth.
Rambler III
"scribe7716" <scrib...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1156868299....@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
>
> Brooks Simpson wrote:
>> One ought to wrestle with the assumption of the post of the moment.
>>
>> Was the South different? This begs the question, how do you define
>> the
>> South? It also begs the question, different from what?
>
> Here, IMO, is some ways that the antebellum south was different than
> the antebellum north.
>
> 1) Adherence to slavery decades after it had been banned in the
> north
Define "North".
State or Territory / Date of abolition
Arizona Territory - 1865
Delaware - 1865
Kentucky - 1865
Maryland - 1865
Missouri - 1865
Nebraska Territory - 1861
Nevada Territory - 1865
New Mexico Territory - 1865
Oklahoma - 1865
Utah - 1865
West Virginia - 1865
F.C. Jameson
> "F.C. Jameson" <"nick_at_noonREMOVE"@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:szZIg.1050$9v5...@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
>
>>On Tue, 29 Aug 2006 11:24:04 -0400, "ray o'hara" <r...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >"F.C. Jameson" <"nick_at_noonREMOVE"@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >news:9NXIg.30842$j8....@bignews7.bellsouth.net...
>> >>> >
>> >> > Spare me your condescending bullshit and die.
>> >>
>> >> Why should I ? I demand the right to extend Christian charity to all
>> >> of God's less articulate creations.
>> >>
>> > even if they are tapdancing on the sidewalks right?
>>
>>I don't care what he does on the sidewalk as long as he does it in a
>>"dignified" manner. That was your word, remember ?
>>
>
>
> no i didn't use dignified, but you did say tap dancing was a lynching
> offence
You said: "trying to act in a dignified manner got them
called uppity and lynched."
I've never understood why many Yankee liberals, in their patronizing
way, cannot find any positive word to describe talented black people
other than "dignified".
I'm reading a book about a crime committed in 1982, written by a
reporter who covered the events. The accused was tried and re-tried
over a 5 year period in front of a total of about 10 or 12 judges. One
judge was described by the author something like this: "Judge Joe Brown
was a very dignified man". My first thought: "A black guy, no doubt".
A few pages over the author admitted what I already knew: "Judge
Brown, an African American, was born in Chicago".
Since the 1960s, how many times have you read or heard the word
"dignified" that was NOT intended as a compliment to a black guy ? Not
many. Dignified white people ceased to exist in the 1960s. When most
Northern liberals see a black guy who has a rank above mailman, they
call him "dignified". And the black dude is suppose to pee all over
himself in gratitude for the compliment. Let me ask you this being you
seem to be an expert on "dignified" people. Is a code word ? If it
isn't, why do I always know it applies to blacks ?
Don't you think that must be insulting to intelligent blacks ?
>> >round'em up, ship'em out. just how jesus would have handled it.
>> >
>> >you"christian" types have the amazing ability to talk out of both sides
>
> of
>
>> >your ass.
>>
>>And what are you ? Jew or Muslim ?
>
>
>
> a freethinker.
You mean atheist, say atheist. I'm an Odinian myself.
>
> i'm sure jesusd would agree with you that any who don't want to be rounded
> up should be killed.
> fortunately for you religion i sa hokey myth.
And you have that right. It was for individual freedom that the
Confederate men fought.
ray o'hara
i didn't use the word dignified. although i have no problem. but you did
say they should have been either lynched or deported so you wouldn't have to
rub shoulders with them.
F.C. Jameson
Yes you did, and you should be ashamed.
>although i have no problem. but you did
> say they should have been either lynched
No I didn't. I said the sheriff may feel that way if anyone got too
energtic on the sidewalk.
>or deported so you wouldn't have to
> rub shoulders with them.
Deportation was never an option after the very early 1800s. From then
on it was a matter of how best we could all get along. For all our sakes.
ken_w...@yahoo.com
DELONGPREBUM wrote:
> Brooks Simpson wrote:
>
> > One ought to wrestle with the assumption of the post of the moment.
> >
> > Was the South different?
>
>
> Yes, it was. Presence of many enslaved Blacks. This is the NUMBER ONE
> feature of the South and you can't get away from it.
Yes, and it was an institution whose effect was so great that it
altered much of the rest of the economy and society.
KW
DELONGPREBUM
F.C. Jameson wrote:
I'm an Odinian myself.
***
Interesting. I learned runes before I learned the alphabet, I'm as
white and as blond as can be, I still take part in festivals that are
absolutely pagan in origin, and me and virtually every other
Scandinavian think that that Odin and Thor stuff is for the birds.
Are you familiar with Hellenic Traditionalism? Makes much more sense.
Judging by your garbled surname I take it that your interest in Odinism
is a return to your "roots"?
C.M.German
<ken_w...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1156901021.1...@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com...
generated by the fact that the South set/s the course for history and
society for all generations to come and still does, even though it is
technically non-existent. No matter how much one derides things southern,
they are still influenced by them no matter where they may reside. While
the true Southerner could not care less and is unscathed by outside
opinions of things Southern and strives to maintain his heritage regardless
of those opinions.
DELONGPREBUM
***
Stop kidding yourself. The South's influence has always been a negative
one on the US.
Northern abolition, Northern victory in the Civil War and Federal
victory regarding Civil Rights show who leads and who surrenders.
National life in the US is a Northern thing.
New England ways of industry and society have become American ways.
All the South can do is obstruct progress, especially by voting as a
block.
Your attempt to portray yourself as a repository of "the Southern Way"
is ludicrous.
You have no dignity.
You have no pride.
The South sets no agendas.
F.C. Jameson
Jameson --- Scottish, northern English, and northern Irish
If you accept that the Southern culture is actually more Borderlander
than English or Celt, you will see that I am genetically as well as
culturally of that tradition.
In all seriousness I am not, shall we say, religiously affiliated.
But I have often thought that if I were, it would be to European
deities and not to those of Asia or any other continent. It's just a
matter of personal pride. Western Civilization was conceived in the
amphitheaters of Athens, born in the salons of Rome, blossomed in the
palaces of Paris and matured in the drawing rooms of London. So when it
comes to spiritual guidance, why should I search elsewhere ? Odin and
Druid are closer to my European ancestors than any others. Zeus comes
in a distant third. None others need apply.
Actually I have not done any reading on the subject of Odin or Druid,
but I may get around to it.
ray o'hara
"C.M.German" <cmge...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:oPydnUkjO7wK72jZ...@adelphia.com...
> You may be on to something. Suppose all the animosity towards the south
is
> generated by the fact that the South set/s the course for history and
> society for all generations to come and still does, even though it is
> technically non-existent. No matter how much one derides things southern,
> they are still influenced by them no matter where they may reside. While
> the true Southerner could not care less and is unscathed by outside
> opinions of things Southern and strives to maintain his heritage
regardless
> of those opinions.
>
riiiight. suuurrrre.
nobody takes their cue from the south. the south is a culturally backwards
area.
american high culture comes frtom the northeast, the low culture from new
york city and pop culture from la-la land. for the south we only get any
value from NASCAR and bar-b-q. {mmmmm allman's in fredericksburg mmmm}
Brooks Simpson
C.M.German wrote:
>
> No matter how much one derides things southern,
> they are still influenced by them no matter where they may reside. While
> the true Southerner could not care less and is unscathed by outside
> opinions of things Southern and strives to maintain his heritage regardless
> of those opinions.
That would beg the question of what constitutes "heritage"; otherwise
you sound like Hughie, although one wonders whether his obsession with
what Northerners think of the South suggests that he is so scathed.
Brooks Simpson
F.C. Jameson wrote:
> If you accept that the Southern culture is actually more Borderlander
> than English or Celt, you will see that I am genetically as well as
> culturally of that tradition.
Let me venture the opinion that Southern culture is as much African as
European.
Cash
-----------
The antebellum south was different from the antebellum north. Due to
their climate they used plantation agriculture, and they were readily
identified as being 100% comprised of slave states. Accents were
different, although western accents may have resembled southern
accents. Ideologically, the south tended to be more conservative and
more religious. The plantation culture led to development of a more
easily identifiable aristocracy in the form of the planter class.
As I type this it strikes me that climate was a more important factor
than we normally consider.
Plantation agriculture depended on the climate. Plantation agriculture
led to the use of large gangs of slave laborers, thus accounted for the
pervasiveness of slavery throughout southern culture, and therefore led
to the huge influence of African-American culture on southern culture.
Plantation agriculture led to the aristocracy of the planter class and
the need for a system of racial subordination in order to perserve
white supremacy, something not needed in the north because there were
so few blacks that white supremacy could be maintained by numbers
alone.
This need led to the desire to preserve the institution of slavery when
it was perceived to be threatened, leading to secession and ultimately
the Civil War.
Regards,
Cash
C.M.German
"ray o'hara" <r...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:J9-dnfusM7CRNGjZ...@comcast.com...
|
| riiiight. suuurrrre.
|
| nobody takes their cue from the south. the south is a culturally
backwards
| area.
| american high culture comes frtom the northeast, the low culture from new
| york city and pop culture from la-la land. for the south we only get any
| value from NASCAR and bar-b-q. {mmmmm allman's in fredericksburg mmmm}
|
|It is that particular attitude that the north holds about itself that
alienates the rest of the world, the South included. For instance, the
English or the French as well would hardly consider the northeast US a
hotbed of culture. So what's your superior standing based upon?
C.M.German
| riiiight. suuurrrre.
|
| nobody takes their cue from the south. the south is a culturally
backwards
| area.
| american high culture comes frtom the northeast, the low culture from new
| york city and pop culture from la-la land. for the south we only get any
| value from NASCAR and bar-b-q. {mmmmm allman's in fredericksburg mmmm}
|
C.M.German
| riiiight. suuurrrre.
|
| nobody takes their cue from the south. the south is a culturally
backwards
| area.
| american high culture comes frtom the northeast, the low culture from new
| york city and pop culture from la-la land. for the south we only get any
| value from NASCAR and bar-b-q. {mmmmm allman's in fredericksburg mmmm}
|
ray o'hara
english seem quite impressed by visiting boston and the french don't
consider anybody but themselves cultured.
>So what's your superior standing based upon?
a fine literary tradition, some of the worlds best hospitals and
universities in the world.
one of the 3 best symphonies and a hall generally consider one of the worlds
most accoustically perfect. to start
Cash
C.M.German wrote:
For instance, the
> English or the French as well would hardly consider the northeast US a
> hotbed of culture.
----------------
English actors appearing both on and off Broadway would probably
disagree with you, as would English artists having their works
displayed at the MoMA or Metropolitan Museum of Art, as would English
musicians and singers appearing at Carnegie Hall or the Metropolitan
Opera or playing with the New York Philharmonic.
The Boston area contains a comparative amount of cultural activities,
as does the Philadelphia area.
Only the French really care what the French think. : )
Regards,
Cash
Rambler III
There are probably more unwed mothers, pregnant teenagers seeking
abortions, drug addicts and dealers, welfare queens, and alcoholics in
New York City than all the South east of the Mississippi and south of
the Ohio.
That's culture?
C.M.German
"Cash" <Cas...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1156965993.0...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
You're talking here about those who make their living off charitable
donations and tax incentives on the backs of the poor and calling it
culture? The arts and theatre have always been the rich mans pastimes.
Southerners, in the past, have by necessity turned to more practical
matters like making an honest living rather than stealing from their
neighbors under the guise of artistic and literary license. Perhaps if the
South had better theaters and music halls the crime and ignorance would
decrease and our culture would improve........
scribe7716
Rambler III wrote:
> > Here, IMO, is some ways that the antebellum south was different than
> > the antebellum north.
> >
> > 1) Adherence to slavery decades after it had been banned in the
> > north
> [snip]
>
> Define "North".
>
> State or Territory / Date of abolition
> Arizona Territory - 1865
> Delaware - 1865
> Kentucky - 1865
> Maryland - 1865
> Missouri - 1865
> Nebraska Territory - 1861
> Nevada Territory - 1865
> New Mexico Territory - 1865
> Oklahoma - 1865
> Utah - 1865
> West Virginia - 1865
First, as you can see above I specified in my post that I was talking
about the antebellum south. There was no West Virginia antebelum. The
area that became West Virginia was a part of the slave state Virginia
antebellum. Also there was no antebellum Oklahoma or Oklahoma
Territory. It was the Indian Territories in those days. There was also
no antebellum Arizona Terrutory (see below).
Second, none of the territories that existed antebellum adhered to
slavery. They had acceptance of slavery imposed on them by federal
law... the Kansas-Nebraska Act demanded by the slave south and
supported by some northern doughface Democrats including the Old Public
Functionary. Despite K-N slavery did not take root in territories.
Per the 1860 census:
o New Mexico Territory, which included Arizona (Arizona did not become
at separate territory until 1863), had no slaves.
o Nebraska Territory had 15 slaves.
o Nevada Territory hade no slaves.
o Utah Territory (Utah did not become a state until 1896) had 29
slaves.
o By the way, you neglected Kansas Territory which had 2 slaves.
Antebellum, Missouri, Maryland and Kentucky were border slaves states.
They would later adhere to the Union... though the Confederacy would
lay optimistic claims to Missouri and Kentucky.
Delaware was... Delaware. Despite only having 1,798 slaves in 1860 the
state did cling to slavery.
As to the north, in 1860 the free state north included Connecticut,
Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Vermont, New Jersey,
New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio,
Wisconsin, California. Plus. of course, the slave-free Oregon,
Washington, Colorado, Nevada, and Dakota territories.
Do you still wish to argue that "Adherence to slavery decades after it
had been banned in the north" (and what you snipped "the rest of the
western world") was not one of the things that made the antebellum
south different?
fkasner
You seem to be conflicted about the origins of the most of European
peoples. Although the Mediterranean peoples were there for a very long
time the majority of the others were the result of Asian invasions over
many centuries. This did not just start after the height of the Roman
empire. It was going on for a very long time before. Chances are that
the peoples of the Mediterranean fringes were a longer time stable
population than those of the parts of Europe that you so cherish.
FK
fkasner
Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago, San Fransisco, and Los Angeles. Even
Baltimore which no longer considers itself southern is more than a match
for almost all southern cities. Not that there are not some nicely
civilized cities in the south just not up to par with respect to what
the NE, midwest, and western states can offer. BTW a coarseness and
rudeness does not detract from the cultural offerings of the
aforementioned cities.
FK
fkasner
Every great city throughout history has had more than its share of
people of such base activity. It goes with big cities. I remember many
years ago when Atlanta was finally starting to grow rapidly that I
ignored the warnings of the bell men and the concierge and a group of 20
to 30 of us went out toward a local restaurant when we were besieged by
a horde of pimps, drug sellers, and prostitutes as we walked toward the
restaurant. Only our large numbers kept us from feeling threatened. It
was worse than I had experienced in any large city at any time. Remember
that history informs us that these kind of things happened in all the
large cities of antiquity and of the present.
FK
Cash
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/state_pregnancy_trends.pdf#search=%22abortions%20by%20state%22
Ranking by rates of pregnancy, birth and abortion per 1,000 women aged
15-19 in 2000:
1. Nevada
2. Arizona
3. Mississippi
4. New Mexico
5. Texas
6. Florida
7. California
8. Georgia
9. North Carolina
10. Arkansas
11. Delaware
12. Hawaii
13. Maryland
14. New York
15. Alabama
16. New Jersey
17. South Carolina
18. Tennessee
19. Louisiana
20. Illinois
21. Oklahoma
22. Colorado
23. Oregon
24. Wyoming
25. Kentucky
http://www.senate.gov/~rpc/charts/welfare.pdf#search=%22Welfare%20recipients%20by%20state%22
March 1998 total welfare recipients
1. California 2,102,704
2. New York 922,675
3. Illinois 531,623
4. Texas 408,776
5. Pennsylvania 382,901
6. Ohio 372,241
7. Michigan 370,715
8. Florida 290,977
9. Washington 221,274
10. Georgia 209,613
11. New Jersey 207,678
12. North Carolina 184,382
13. Massachusetts 176,412
14. Missouri 158,492
15. Tennessee 154,428
16. Minnesota 146,257
17. Connecticut 132,437
18. Kentucky 129,770
19. Maryland 125,337
20. Louisiana 124,031
21. Arizona 107,860
22. Virginia 104,338
23. Indiana 92,551
24. Hawaii 75,368
25. South Carolina 71,382
26. New Mexico 69,275
27. Iowa 67,189
28. Oklahoma 66,451
29. Mississippi 61,045
30. Alabama 58,964
31. Rhode Island 54,425
32. District of Columbia 53,850
33. Colorado 53,682
34. Oregon 48,663
35. Wisconsin 47,444
36. West Virginia 45,255
37. Maine 41,860
38. Nebraska 38,523
39. Kansas 35,659
40. Arkansas 34,901
41. Alaska 32,665
42. Utah 29,698
43. Nevada 27,374
44. Vermont 20,718
45. Montana 19,913
46. Delaware 17,810
47. New Hampshire 15,513
48. South Dakota 10,187
49. North Dakota 8,733
50. Idaho 4,460
51. Wyoming 2,974
2005 Alcohol-related Traffic Deaths
http://www.madd.org/stats/11087
1. California 1,719
2. Texas 1,569
3. Florida1,471
4. Pennsylvania 636
5. Illinois 580
6. North Carolina 549
7. Georgia 545
8. New York 524
9. Missouri 515
10. Ohio 505
11. Arizona 492
12. South Carolina 464
13. Tennessee 464
14. Alabama 423
15. Michigan 421
16. Louisiana 394
17. Mississippi 371
18. Wisconsin 369
19. Virginia 347
20. Indiana 320
21. Kentucky 313
22. Washington 294
23. Oklahoma 283
24. New Jersey 263
25. Colorado 244
26. Maryland 235
27. Arkansas 233
28. Minnesota 201
29. New Mexico 189
30. Oregon 177
31. Massachusetts 171
32. Nevada 159
33. Kansas 151
34. West Virginia 126
35. Montana 124
36. Connecticut 120
37. Iowa 118
38. Nebraska 91
39. Idaho 89
40. South Dakota 80
41. Hawaii 71
42. Delaware 66
43. Wyoming 65
44. New Hampshire 60
45. Maine 59
46. North Dakota 58
47. Rhode Island 43
48. Utah 37
49. Alaska 35
50. Vermont 29
51. DC 26
Infant Mortality 2002
http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank17.html
1. Louisiana
2. Mississippi
3. Tennessee
4. South Carolina
5. Alabama
6. West Virginia
7. Georgia
8. Delaware
9. Missouri
10. Arkansas
11. North Carolina
12. Michigan
13. Oklahoma
14. Ohio
15. Indiana
16. Pennsylvania
17. Florida
18. Maryland
19. Montana
20. Illinois
21. Virginia
22. Hawaii
23. Kentucky
24. Kansas
25. Nebraska
26. Rhode Island
27. Wisconsin
28. Wyoming
29. Connecticut
30. South Dakota
31. Arizona
32. Texas
33. New Mexico
34. North Dakota
35. Colorado
36. Idaho
37. Nevada
38. New York
39. Oregon
40. Washington
41. New Jersey
42. Utah
43. Alaska
44. California
45. Minnesota
46. Iowa
47. New Hampshire
48. Massachusetts
49. Maine
50. Vermont
Regards,
Cash
Cash
----------
Piggly Wiggly is not the height of culture. Sorry.
Regards,
Cash
ray o'hara
"fkasner" <fka...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:mpnJg.13319$1f6....@newssvr27.news.prodigy.net...
true for the eastern med/asia minor.
the celts moved in to western europe most likely around the time that the
classical greeks moved in on the myceneans.
ray o'hara
>
>
> Piggly Wiggly is not the height of culture. Sorry.
>
> Regards,
> Cash
>
unfortunately it is where c.m lives.
ray o'hara
"Rambler III" <Ramb...@xyz.com> wrote in message
news:CvmJg.729837$Fs1.6...@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
actually trailer parks which dominate in the south arehot beds of single
unwed aughters and sisters and junkies.
as they say, jack daniels comes in a square bottle to keep it from rolling
around on the pick-ups floor.
ray o'hara
the drunk driving and infant mortality don't reflect well on the south do
they.
must be those fine consevative values they hold so dear.
DELONGPREBUM
***
This is your best post ever, but NYC is THE capital of music, dance,
art, opera, fashion and theatre in the US. That's hardly "low culture".
Boston, because of its many universities and highly educated populace,
is hardly a slouch in the culture department, and has many world-class
institutions, but NYC's MONEY makes it pre-eminent.
If you can make it in New York, you can make it anywhere.
DELONGPREBUM
***
There is some truth to what you say, believe it or not. Partisans of
The Tate, the British Museum, the Louvre, Covent Garden, the West End
and l'Opera need not take a back seat to any of New York's
institutions, but NYC has a greater concentration of cultural
powerhouses and the money to draw the best talent from anywhere.
Let's take opera, for instance, an Italian art-form considered to be
"high-brow", and one that Ray affects to appreciate. Although it was
born in Italy, and Italy has some of the greatest singers and opera
houses, the MET debut is still considered to be the crucial achievement
in any singer's career.
The same for modern dance. Success in New York is considered to be the
standard of achievement. Ditto for artists.
Me, I still prefer a hot dog and a beer at Yankee Stadium.
DELONGPREBUM
***
All true, but the same could be said for NYC.
DELONGPREBUM
***
He doesn't realize that the origins of European civilization are to be
found in Western Asia, and that all Europeans are descended from Asian
tribes that moved into Europe and displaced the local population. See
Volkerwanderung, Dorian Invasions, etc. Even the religious idea of
"sky-gods" is an Asian import into Europe. People in the Med. Basin
were writing literature, performing in the theatre and and practicing
mathematics when my Norwegian and Jameson's ancestors were still
dealing with stone knives and bearskins.
DELONGPREBUM
***
Fuhgeddaboutit!
DELONGPREBUM
***
Did you partake of any Southern delights?
Rambler III
The whole of the elements you describe in all of Atlanta were probably
not equal to those in one public housing project in NYC.
Rambler III
"DELONGPREBUM" <urbana...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1156991751.6...@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
[snip]
> Did you partake of any Southern delights?
Not everyone has your predilections.
Southern delights
1. Pecan pie
2. Sweet ice tea
3. Sweet potato pie
4. Poke salad
5. Barbeque
Rambler III
Why did you edit-out March 1998 total welfare recipients?
13. Massachusetts 176,412
There's only three cities in Alabama with more residents.
DELONGPREBUM
Rambler III wrote:
> > Every great city throughout history has had more than its share of
> > people of such base activity. It goes with big cities. I remember
> > many years ago when Atlanta was finally starting to grow rapidly
> > that I ignored the warnings of the bell men and the concierge and a
> > group of 20 to 30 of us went out toward a local restaurant when we
> > were besieged by a horde of pimps, drug sellers, and prostitutes as
> > we walked toward the restaurant. Only our large numbers kept us from
> > feeling threatened. It was worse than I had experienced in any large
> > city at any time. Remember that history informs us that these kind
> > of things happened in all the large cities of antiquity and of the
> > present.
> > FK
>
> The whole of the elements you describe in all of Atlanta were probably
> not equal to those in one public housing project in NYC.
***
Oh, my! The demonization of NYC!
Southerners cheered on Bin Laden's attack on 9/11.
They hate NYC and they hate the United States.
DELONGPREBUM
***
All Celts and all Dorian Greeks have their origins in Asia, ultimately.
The Celts probably branched off from other Indo-Europeans whilst still
in Asia.
A large number were still in Asia Minor in Caesar's time.
Rambler III
> actually trailer parks which dominate in the south arehot beds of
> single
> unwed aughters and sisters and junkies.
> as they say, jack daniels comes in a square bottle to keep it from
> rolling
> around on the pick-ups floor.
Maybe in Massachusetts. How else would you be so informed? How do you
know JD is in a square bottle?
Again you are talking about something you know little about. Not all
"trailer parks" park trailers. Many have manufactured homes. Some
trailer parks are guarded gated communities with astronomical lot
rental fees. "You get what you pay for." Many are occupied by working
class persons, transitory due to the nature of their occupation. Near
military base some are occupied by those on active duty (Is this a
Queer Bill and Queen Hillary attitude being displayed?)
Rambler III
[snip]
> unfortunately it is where c.m lives.
>
>
Where do you hang-out on slow days, Wal-Mart?
ray o'hara
there isn't one anywhere near here.
ray o'hara
and the vast majority are trailer parks where the teeth only outnumber the
residents by a factor of 2.
C.M.German
|
|
| and the vast majority are trailer parks where the teeth only outnumber
the
| residents by a factor of 2.
|
|
Here again we have the typical yankee pattern. They can bash trailer park
residents or people who drive old pickups and drink beer from a can. They
can laugh at Grandpa's farm and make fun of southerners any time they wish
but woe betide the man, woman or child who speaks ill of anyone who claims
slave ancestry. Such people are just as bigoted and ugly as any..... and
haven't the intelligence to realize it.
Cash
Rambler III wrote:
> Why did you edit-out March 1998 total welfare recipients?
I didn't. I used the March 1998 figures for each state, since they
were the latest figures on that website.
>
> 13. Massachusetts 176,412
>
> There's only three cities in Alabama with more residents.
------------
So Alabama doesn't help its poor people. We can see that through the
infant mortality figures, with Alabama having the fifth highest infant
mortality rate in the nation.
Let's look at education:
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/
For 8th Graders in 2005:
Alabama:
Mathematics State Avg Scale Score: 262
Mathematics National Avg Scale Score: 278
Mathematics Percent at or above Basic Level: 53
Mathematics Percent at or above Proficient Level: 15
Mathematics Percent at or above Advanced Level: 2
Reading State Avg Scale Score: 252
Reading National Avg Scale Score: 260
Reading Percent at or above Basic Level: 63
Reading Percent at or above Proficient Level: 22
Reading Percent at or above Advanced Level: 2
Science State Avg Scale Score: 138
Science National Avg Scale Score: 147
Science Percent at or above Basic Level: 48
Science Percent at or above Proficient Level: 19
Science Percent at or above Advanced Level: 1
Massachusetts
Mathematics State Avg Scale Score: 292
Mathematics National Avg Scale Score: 278
Mathematics Percent at or above Basic Level: 80
Mathematics Percent at or above Proficient Level: 43
Mathematics Percent at or above Advanced Level: 11
Reading State Avg Scale Score: 274
Reading National Avg Scale Score: 260
Reading Percent at or above Basic Level: 83
Reading Percent at or above Proficient Level: 44
Reading Percent at or above Advanced Level: 5
Science State Avg Scale Score: 161
Science National Avg Scale Score: 147
Science Percent at or above Basic Level: 72
Science Percent at or above Proficient Level: 41
Science Percent at or above Advanced Level: 6
Regards,
Cash
Cash
C.M.German wrote:
> Here again we have the typical yankee pattern. They can bash trailer park
> residents or people who drive old pickups and drink beer from a can. They
> can laugh at Grandpa's farm and make fun of southerners any time they wish
> but woe betide the man, woman or child who speaks ill of anyone who claims
> slave ancestry. Such people are just as bigoted and ugly as any..... and
> haven't the intelligence to realize it.
-------------
So then you don't think anyone who has slave ancestry is a southerner.
What were you saying about bigoted and ugly again?
C.M.German
I'm saying you and your ilk are just as bigoted and racist as anyone
walking........
Brooks Simpson
Sounds to me, Cash, that he numbers you as one of those folks who sees
the South as other, and that those people ("you and your ilk") are
bigoted and racist.
I think he missed your point.
Now watch and see who tries to make nice with CM. :)
Brooks Simpson
> Rambler III wrote:
>
> > > Here, IMO, is some ways that the antebellum south was different than
> > > the antebellum north.
> > >
> > > 1) Adherence to slavery decades after it had been banned in the
> > > north
> > [snip]
> >
> > Define "North".
> >
> > State or Territory / Date of abolition
> > Arizona Territory - 1865
> > Delaware - 1865
> > Kentucky - 1865
> > Maryland - 1865
> > Missouri - 1865
> > Nebraska Territory - 1861
> > Nevada Territory - 1865
> > New Mexico Territory - 1865
> > Oklahoma - 1865
> > Utah - 1865
> > West Virginia - 1865
>
> First, as you can see above I specified in my post that I was talking
> about the antebellum south. There was no West Virginia antebelum. The
> area that became West Virginia was a part of the slave state Virginia
> antebellum. Also there was no antebellum Oklahoma or Oklahoma
> Territory. It was the Indian Territories in those days. There was also
> no antebellum Arizona Terrutory (see below).
>
> Second, none of the territories that existed antebellum adhered to
> slavery. They had acceptance of slavery imposed on them by federal
> law... the Kansas-Nebraska Act demanded by the slave south and
> supported by some northern doughface Democrats including the Old Public
> Functionary. Despite K-N slavery did not take root in territories.
>
> Per the 1860 census:
>
> o New Mexico Territory, which included Arizona (Arizona did not become
> at separate territory until 1863), had no slaves.
> o Nebraska Territory had 15 slaves.
> o Nevada Territory hade no slaves.
> o Utah Territory (Utah did not become a state until 1896) had 29
> slaves.
> o By the way, you neglected Kansas Territory which had 2 slaves.
>
> Antebellum, Missouri, Maryland and Kentucky were border slaves states.
> They would later adhere to the Union... though the Confederacy would
> lay optimistic claims to Missouri and Kentucky.
>
> Delaware was... Delaware. Despite only having 1,798 slaves in 1860 the
> state did cling to slavery.
>
> As to the north, in 1860 the free state north included Connecticut,
> Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, Vermont, New Jersey,
> New York, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, Minnesota, Ohio,
> Wisconsin, California. Plus. of course, the slave-free Oregon,
> Washington, Colorado, Nevada, and Dakota territories.
>
> Do you still wish to argue that "Adherence to slavery decades after it
> had been banned in the north" (and what you snipped "the rest of the
> western world") was not one of the things that made the antebellum
> south different?
An excellent exposure of more misleading or outright incorrect factual
material characteristic of its source.
Rambler III
to the wrong message as I was switching back and forth to discover
what was missing.
"Cash" <Cas...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1157048899.2...@i42g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
> Rambler III wrote:
>> Why did you edit-out March 1998 total welfare recipients?
> ------------
> I didn't. I used the March 1998 figures for each state, since they
> were the latest figures on that website.
>
>
>
>>
>> 13. Massachusetts 176,412
>>
>> There's only three cities in Alabama with more residents.
>
> ------------
>
> So Alabama doesn't help its poor people. We can see that through
> the
> infant mortality figures, with Alabama having the fifth highest
> infant
> mortality rate in the nation.
Bill Clinton and Congress change the welfare system, not Alabama.
"There are damn lies and then there's statistics."
Mark Twain [?]
Fifth is significant only if there is a wide disparity in deaths per
thousand which there isn't.
2002 US Infant Mortality
Alabama 7.0
Delaware 8.7
DC 11.3
Florida 7.5
Nebraska 7.0
Ohio 7.4
Virginia 7.4
New York 6.0
Random selections from
http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank17.html
> Let's look at education:
>
> http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/states/
>
> For 8th Graders in 2005:
>
> Alabama:
>
> Mathematics State Avg Scale Score: 262
> Mathematics National Avg Scale Score: 278
5.8% below average. Marginally statistically significant. Half of the
states would score below the average. How many scored below Alabama?
> Reading State Avg Scale Score: 252
> Reading National Avg Scale Score: 260
3.1% Not statistically significant. Half of the states would score
below the average. How many scored below Alabama?
> Science State Avg Scale Score: 138
> Science National Avg Scale Score: 147
6.2% Possibly statistically significant. Half of the states would
score below the average. How many scored below Alabama?
> Mathematics State Avg Scale Score: 292
> Mathematics National Avg Scale Score: 278
4.8% Possibly statistically significant. Half of the states would
score below the average. How many scored below Alabama?
> Reading State Avg Scale Score: 274
> Reading National Avg Scale Score: 260
5.2% Possibly statistically significant. Half of the states would
score below the average. How many scored below Alabama?
> Science State Avg Scale Score: 161
> Science National Avg Scale Score: 147
9.1%. Possibly significant. How many scored below Alabama?
How many state are marginally "above average" by the same percentages
as Alabama is "below average"?
How many states scored below Alabama? It would be significant if any
were not Southern states, especially if any were Middle or New England
states who brag about the superiority of their educational systems.
Rambler III
Southerners could see through the hype. It wasn't 10,000 deaths, it
wasn't even the much stated 3,000 deaths at the Trade Towers. It was
2,595 at last count - and falling.
WTT 2,595
Flt 11 92
Flt 175 65
Pentagon 125
Flt 77 64
Flt 93 45
Total 2 986
Then there's the outrages settlements. The Hurricane Katharina
survivors would be satisfied with a dime on the dollar. And their
claim would be more justified for many if not of the deaths could have
been prevented.
Rambler III
I get 62,100 hits for the Google
"Trailer Parks" + Massachusetts
I get five for
"Trailer Parks" + "Dedham, Massachusetts"
So you might have intimate knowledge of who lives in those in your
OBY, but I doubt if you have any but rumor for anyplace else.
ray o'hara
>
> Local results for Wal-Mart near Dedham, MA
>
> Wal-Mart - 11 miles SE - 700 Oak St, Brockton, 02301 - (508)
> 586-2742
> Wal-Mart - 6.9 miles S - 550 Providence Hwy, Walpole, 02081 -
> (508) 668-4144
> Wal-Mart: 1-Hour Photo - 9.2 miles E - 301 Falls Blvd, Quincy,
> 02169 - (617) 745-4396
>
near being a reletive term.
there is a lot of traffic and many better stores between me and them. and
the miles are not spot on.
ray o'hara
there are no trailer parks in dedham mass. there is one in boston.
otherwise there are none in any of the surrounding towns, one has to go to
foxboro to find the next one.
yup searched and it mentions the one in boston.{its behind clare auto
dealership} on the banks of the charles river at the intersection of the
providence hwy{rte1}, and springstreet.
but none in dedham. or any nearby towns.
try again ramble on
Rambler III
When was the last time I was in Wal-Mart? Let me count the years.
Wal-Mart in much like an automobile dealership where you have the
stripped-down model that is advertised as a come on.
The merchandise in Wal-Mart that retails for "The Lowest Price,
Always!" because it was manufactured at "The Lowest Possible Expense,
Always!"
You get what you pay for at either place.
Rambler III
[snip]
> yup searched and it mentions the one in boston.{its behind clare
> auto
> dealership} on the banks of the charles river at the intersection of
> the
> providence hwy{rte1}, and springstreet.
> but none in dedham. or any nearby towns.
> try again ramble on
>
My search was only cursory.
Why should I? If I were a trailerite, Massachusetts would be one of
the last places I want to locate. Your real and personal property
taxes are too high, almost as bad as New York.
Hugh Lawson
> > Wal-Mart - 11 miles SE - 700 Oak St, Brockton, 02301 - (508)
> > 586-2742
> > Wal-Mart - 6.9 miles S - 550 Providence Hwy, Walpole, 02081 -
> > (508) 668-4144
> > Wal-Mart: 1-Hour Photo - 9.2 miles E - 301 Falls Blvd, Quincy,
> > 02169 - (617) 745-4396
That's about as far to the Wal-Marts here in Greensboro, NC, from my
house, give or take a mile or two. We seem to have only two in
operation now, but a third one is eagerly awaited in its retail-scanty
neighborhood.
Some say Wal-Mart regular customers are possessive about the
stores, and that the top brass has to be careful about changing them
around on the inside.
There is something poignant about that.
I kind of like Wal-Mart.
IIRC the discount stores started in the urban north (assuming it's
possible to define "the north" LOL). I recall E.J. Korvette in New
Haven CT about 1965. K-Mart started maybe in the midwest (same region
definition proviso).
Wal-Mart took the discount formula to small towns where there had been
little discount store action.
--
Hugh Lawson
hla...@triad.rr.com
DELONGPREBUM
***
You will one day PAY DEARLY for shitting on the memory of the vicitms
of 9/11.
Most of them were Americans.
You are no American.
You ride with Bin Laden!
DELONGPREBUM
***
You fuckers have no memories at all.
Remember Woolworth's?
fkasner
> C.M.German wrote:
>> "ray o'hara" <r...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> news:J9-dnfusM7CRNGjZ...@comcast.com...
>> |
>>
>> |
>> | nobody takes their cue from the south. the south is a culturally
>> backwards
>> | area.
>> | american high culture comes frtom the northeast, the low culture from new
>> | york city and pop culture from la-la land. for the south we only get any
>> | value from NASCAR and bar-b-q. {mmmmm allman's in fredericksburg mmmm}
>> |
>> alienates the rest of the world, the South included. For instance, the
>> English or the French as well would hardly consider the northeast US a
>> hotbed of culture. So what's your superior standing based upon?
>
>
> ***
>
> There is some truth to what you say, believe it or not. Partisans of
> The Tate, the British Museum, the Louvre, Covent Garden, the West End
> and l'Opera need not take a back seat to any of New York's
> institutions, but NYC has a greater concentration of cultural
> powerhouses and the money to draw the best talent from anywhere.
>
> Let's take opera, for instance, an Italian art-form considered to be
> "high-brow", and one that Ray affects to appreciate. Although it was
> born in Italy, and Italy has some of the greatest singers and opera
> houses, the MET debut is still considered to be the crucial achievement
> in any singer's career.
>
> The same for modern dance. Success in New York is considered to be the
> standard of achievement. Ditto for artists.
>
> Me, I still prefer a hot dog and a beer at Yankee Stadium.
>
Not quite true. Some of the greatest opera singers disdain to perform at
the Met as they consider it not quite the equal of many of the great
houses in Europe. The Met has trouble matching the quality of the great
opera houses of Europe because they are governmentally subsidized and
can do more extensive programs than the Met. Also there is truly a much
larger audience for opera in European countries than in the US.
And note that the London has three (count 'em three) first rate
symphonies as opposed to just one for NYC. However there is throughout
the US many first rate symphonies in addition to the NY Philharmonic
(Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia, Cleveland, at one time Pittsburgh, San
Fransisco, Los Angeles, St. Louis, Minnesota, and few others.)
FK
fkasner
> ray o'hara wrote:
>> "C.M.German" <cmge...@adelphia.net> wrote in message
>> news:i7OdnYi4wflIf2jZ...@adelphia.com...
>>> "ray o'hara" <r...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:J9-dnfusM7CRNGjZ...@comcast.com...
>>> |
>>>
>>> | riiiight. suuurrrre.
>>> |
>>> | nobody takes their cue from the south. the south is a culturally
>>> backwards
>>> | area.
>>> | american high culture comes frtom the northeast, the low culture from
>> new
>>> | york city and pop culture from la-la land. for the south we only get any
>>> | value from NASCAR and bar-b-q. {mmmmm allman's in fredericksburg mmmm}
>>> |
>>> |It is that particular attitude that the north holds about itself that
>>> alienates the rest of the world, the South included. For instance, the
>>> English or the French as well would hardly consider the northeast US a
>>> hotbed of culture.
>> consider anybody but themselves cultured.
>>
>>> So what's your superior standing based upon?
>>
>> universities in the world.
>> one of the 3 best symphonies and a hall generally consider one of the worlds
>> most accoustically perfect. to start
>
> ***
>
>
> All true, but the same could be said for NYC.
>
Not completely true. The good orchestra in NYC is the Philharmonic. But
the only really good hall (in re acoustics) in NYC is in Brooklyn - BAM).
FK
fkasner
> fkasner wrote:
>> Rambler III wrote:
>>> "ray o'hara" <r...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>> news:J9-dnfusM7CRNGjZ...@comcast.com...
>>>>> You may be on to something. Suppose all the animosity towards the
>>>>> south
>>>> is
>>>>> generated by the fact that the South set/s the course for history
>>>>> and
>>>>> society for all generations to come and still does, even though it
>>>>> is
>>>>> technically non-existent. No matter how much one derides things
>>>>> southern,
>>>>> they are still influenced by them no matter where they may reside.
>>>>> While
>>>>> the true Southerner could not care less and is unscathed by outside
>>>>> opinions of things Southern and strives to maintain his heritage
>>>> regardless
>>>>> of those opinions.
>>>>>
>>>> riiiight. suuurrrre.
>>>>
>>>> nobody takes their cue from the south. the south is a culturally
>>>> backwards
>>>> area.
>>>> american high culture comes frtom the northeast, the low culture
>>>> from new
>>>> york city and pop culture from la-la land. for the south we only get
>>>> any
>>>> value from NASCAR and bar-b-q. {mmmmm allman's in fredericksburg
>>>> mmmm}
>>>>
>>>
>>> abortions, drug addicts and dealers, welfare queens, and alcoholics in
>>> New York City than all the South east of the Mississippi and south of
>>> the Ohio.
>>>
>>> That's culture?
>>>
>>>
>> Every great city throughout history has had more than its share of
>> people of such base activity. It goes with big cities. I remember many
>> years ago when Atlanta was finally starting to grow rapidly that I
>> ignored the warnings of the bell men and the concierge and a group of 20
>> to 30 of us went out toward a local restaurant when we were besieged by
>> a horde of pimps, drug sellers, and prostitutes as we walked toward the
>> was worse than I had experienced in any large city at any time. Remember
>> that history informs us that these kind of things happened in all the
>> large cities of antiquity and of the present.
>> FK
>
>
>
>
> Did you partake of any Southern delights?
>
I have never availed myself of the services of a professional "lady". In
my army and my student days I made no distinction between enamorati as
to their geographical origins. When I met the lady who became my wife I
became monogamous for the 46 years were wed. And I did like southern
ladies. They had a charm and some grace when they were educated. The
uneducated ones appeared even coarser than an uneducated northern miss.
FK
fkasner
> not equal to those in one public housing project in NYC.
>
>
At least those who occupied public housing in NYC in those days almost
all graduated from HS and freed themselves from poverty in later years.
Of course I confine this to "white" women as that was the identity of
the women proffered to us in Atlanta at that time. So for purposes of
comparison I have made this limitation. And per capita ? With the
population of NYC at that time over 7 million and Atlanta only several
hundred thousand? I never noticed such hordes of profligacy outside a
NYC hotel.
FK
fkasner
>
> [snip]
>
>> Did you partake of any Southern delights?
>
>
> Southern delights
>
> 1. Pecan pie
> 2. Sweet ice tea
> 3. Sweet potato pie
> 4. Poke salad
> 5. Barbeque
>
>
And most restaurants in New Orleans.
Key Lime Pie
And the sea food at the now gone San Jacinto Inn near Houston.
etc.
FK
fkasner
sentence seems to have been garbled beyond comprehension. However it is
not helped by the misspellings in the other two sentences. It is
outrageous and Katrina not "outrages" and "Katharina". Please don't
attempt to lecture us northerners about reading and math scores until
you can clean up your act.
FK
Hugh Lawson
to "southern difference".
I have been wondering if there was an hidden South-hating subtext to
the attacks on Wal-Mart. I don't have an answer, just a question.
Do you think there is?
--
Hugh Lawson
hla...@triad.rr.com
DELONGPREBUM
Hugh Lawson wrote:
> It's interesting that Wal-Mart came up in a thread ostensibly devoted
> to "southern difference".
>
> I have been wondering if there was an hidden South-hating subtext to
> the attacks on Wal-Mart. I don't have an answer, just a question.
>
> Do you think there is?
>
I think there is, and it is totally justified. So there!
C.M.German
"Hugh Lawson" <hla...@triad.rr.com> wrote in message
news:877j0nv...@desktop.xx.yy...
"They" (those who understand a difference in north and south and even some
who deny it), always seem to equate Wal-marts with 'trailer trash' types
whom they claim have over run the South.
Rambler III
Remember S S Kresge, Woolworth's competitor?
It's now known as K-Mart
In my home town, New Albany, Indiana, W T Grant was a 5 and 10
competitor of Woolworth's, but they went under in the '70s. The
nearest Kresge was is Louisville, Kentucky.
Rambler III
Not in Alabama. It seems that can't get enough of them. There three
superstore in Montgomery - one opened last month and one in
Prattville, a few miles away.
Every time one opens, the local governments rave about increased tax
revenue. It's a new store, not new customers who used to spend the
same money someplace else. Since Wal-Mart supposedly sells for less,
actually the tax revenues should decrease if the supposed savings is
invested by the junk owning customer. Many own so much Wal-Mart junk
they've got to rent a building to store it. I've seen 10 x 20 units
full of it.
Rambler III
I'll betcha that hole in the ground has already cost more than what it
will take to rebuild the gulf coast and it's still a hole in the
ground. All those "volunteers" were paid to remove the debris, firemen
included, and I'll betcha it was at overtime rates. The contractors
who hauled away the debris didn't do it for free. And the developer of
the site will make out like gangbusters. Get real. It's a money pit.
It's almost as good as a printing press.
Rambler III
To know, you apparently took "A Walk On The Wild Side." As I recall a
very good novel (1956) and movie (1962) staring Laurence Harvey. At
least I thought so at the time.
Rambler III
I said public housing, New York's equal to trailer parks.
Rambler III
I wrote Katrina (it just did it again), Kathrina or Katerina or other
variation, but my spellchecker, as I recall, said Katharina. I thought
it smarter than me. I suspect I misspelled "outrageous" and the
spellchecker suggested "outrages" which I blindly followed.
Nevertheless, I accept your admonishment in the manner it was given.
Anyway, I wasn't writing a term paper, but if you want to be a Grammar
Policeman, please begin with the most flagrant violator. (As a
courtesy I will not mention his name.)
How about with the added [,] and an added [all]:
And their claim would be more justified[,] for many if not [all] of
DELONGPREBUM
***
New York City, with its immigrants, Jews, Harlemites, Fruitcakes, arts,
institutions, money and power IS AMERICA!
It is, along with Hollywood, what the world imagines AMERICA to be.
NEW YORK CITY made America in a way that no place else has.
Your denigration of recovery efforts in Lower Manhattan are shameful
and treasonous.
You are a supporter of the Confederate Terrorists who tried to burn
down the city in 1863.
DELONGPREBUM
***
When you shop at Wal-Mart, you're shopping in China.
Big Box stores destroy Mom and Pop operatiions for miles around.
They may be ok in Arkansas, but we don't need them here in the FIVE
BOROUGHS.
We don't need Starbucks either.
Ricky G. Martin
You should also consider how Wal-mart started out, and then, what it morphed
into post Sam Walton.
Sam Walton was known to be a conservative on the issues of family, religion
and government. Walton's philosophy reflected the small-town values he grew
up with, and that his customers shared. Wal-Mart originally found a niche in
small, rural communities that the established discounters tended to ignore.
Walton stated, "Each Wal-Mart store should reflect the [small-town, rural]
values of its customers and support the vision they hold for their
community."
He launched a determined effort to market American-made products with "Bring
It Home to the USA". (anyone remember those days?)
Wal-Mart has abandoned the philosophy and values of it's founder.
DELONGPREBUM
***
And you probably think that the NSDAP was also "good in the beginning"
but then became perverted.
Hugh Lawson
> Wal-Mart has abandoned the philosophy and values of it's founder.
I guess that means Wal-Mart "is not an eleemosynary organization." (
Thanks to the late US Sen. Sam Ervin, Jr., D-NC, who made a similar
remark wrt the CIA.)
--
Hugh Lawson
hla...@triad.rr.com
Brooks Simpson
> "They" (those who understand a difference in north and south and even some
> who deny it), always seem to equate Wal-marts with 'trailer trash' types
> whom they claim have over run the South.
So if "they" include anyone who understands a difference between North
and South, "they" would include those people from the South who believe
the South is different.
That's what you said, CM.
So, do you believe the South is different? Does Hughie? Or do you
both lack regional pride? However, recall that if you do believe the
South *is* different, then, by your own assertion, *you* equate
Wal-Marts with "trailer trash" types whom "they" (or now *you*) (how
othering!) claim have run over the South. That's what *you* said.
I don't know what Wal-Mart has with the coming of the Civil War, and I
think it a reach to say that people's dislike of Wal-Marts has anything
to do with South-hating, but I understand that some Southerners here
are desperate to find anything that reinforces their sense of
persecution by "others." Perhaps that's one sign that discussions
about the Civil War here all too often drift into present-day squabbles
over issues of sectional identity.
Brooks Simpson
I think there is much truth to this.
Ricky G. Martin
Meaning: 1. Based on charitable contributions, having to do with charity. 2.
Altruistic, contributed as charity without expectation of compensation.
I don't understand the connection here? Were you not the one stressing the
difference of ruralism? Sam Walton's vision for Wal-Mart was clearly
directed at small-towns and rural areas and was to "reflect the values" of
the community. Wal-Mart is moving away from the philosophy and values of
small-town and rural America and has become more urban, for lack of a better
word.
Rambler III
Many specialty stores in Wal-Mart Shopping Centers do right well as
long as they don't sell goods made in China, groceries, or gasoline.
Most prevailent locally are franchise resturants whose patrons are
probably attracted by the large parking lot.
> They may be ok in Arkansas, but we don't need them here in the FIVE
> BOROUGHS.
"We"? Are you pregnant?
> We don't need Starbucks either.
Again: Are you pregnant?
Then don't frequent their store. No customers = No business = Store
closing.
Rambler III
You are a lunatic.
Hugh Lawson
> I don't understand the connection here?
Sorry Ricky, I was being a smart-aleck.
I think business organizations like Wal-Mart exist to make money and
not to carry out idealistic philosophies. So they will always be
drifting away from idealism.
At the same time they will always be making idealistic statements
while they think this gives them a good reputation with the public.
--
Hugh Lawson
hla...@triad.rr.com
Rambler III
"Brooks Simpson" <bdsim...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1157123063....@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
> C.M.German wrote:
>
>> "They" (those who understand a difference in north and south and
>> even some
>> who deny it), always seem to equate Wal-marts with 'trailer trash'
>> types
>> whom they claim have over run the South.
>
> So if "they" include anyone who understands a difference between
> North
> and South, "they" would include those people from the South who
> believe
> the South is different.
>
> That's what you said, CM.
>
> So, do you believe the South is different? Does Hughie? Or do you
> both lack regional pride? However, recall that if you do believe
> the
> South *is* different, then, by your own assertion, *you* equate
> Wal-Marts with "trailer trash" types whom "they" (or now *you*) (how
> othering!) claim have run over the South. That's what *you* said.
>
[snip]
Wal-Mart became a subject when I asked Raymond where he hung out on
slow days. He replied there were no store close by. I supplied his
with the locations of three (3?) Wal-Marts with driving instructions.