Seven Years' War? what is the rule for the apostrophe?
prr
length of time? E.g., Seven Years' War, three days' time, etc. I
tried googling the answer but none of the grammar blogs I found had an
entry for this.
Raymond O'Hara
"prr" <psaulmon...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dcbd8d82-a3a2-4c5f...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
What did the 7 Years war own?
Here in the U.S.A we call it the French & Indian War, and as an American *
started it our name should take precedence.
* George Washington started it when he attacked a French force near what
would become Pittsburg Pa.while George in the service of Va.
J. J. Lodder
Come on, that's just an irrelevant side show,
Jan
HVS
Burchfield has this:
"A possessive apostrophe is needed in the types /five years'
imprisonment/ (contrast /a year's imprisonment/) and /in two years'
time/."
Fowler allowed both, but recommended the apostrophe:
"/Five years' imprisonment, Three weeks' holiday/, etc. /Years/ and
/weeks/ may be treatted as possessives and given an apostrophe or as
adjectival nouns without one. The former is perhaps better, so as to
conform to what is inevitable in the singular -- /a year's
imprisonment, a fortnight's holiday/."
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Rambler III
"prr" <psaulmon...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dcbd8d82-a3a2-4c5f...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
Refer to
Intro A, B, C, D, or E: Mini-FAQ on Grammar, Usage and Punctuation
posted on this Newsgroup on
6/16
6/20
6/22
6/24
6/26
by Donna Richoux
Rambler III
"Raymond O'Hara" <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:-8WdnT7rJLkjc-_V...@rcn.net...
>
> "prr" <psaulmon...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:dcbd8d82-a3a2-4c5f...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>> What is the rule for putting (or not) the possessive at the end of
>> a
>> length of time? E.g., Seven Years' War, three days' time, etc. I
>> tried googling the answer but none of the grammar blogs I found had
>> an
>> entry for this.
>
> What did the 7 Years war own?
What is you mother's mother's name?
And what did either own?
Go back to Dedham grammar school and earn your GED.
Raymond O'Hara
"J. J. Lodder" <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
news:1ijrccv.1xt...@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
Nothing is or was irrelevent about the control of the North American
continent.
And the war started here and spread to Europe and India.
J. J. Lodder
> "J. J. Lodder" <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
> news:1ijrccv.1xt...@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
> > Raymond O'Hara <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "prr" <psaulmon...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> news:dcbd8d82-a3a2-4c5f...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> >> > What is the rule for putting (or not) the possessive at the end of a
> >> > length of time? E.g., Seven Years' War, three days' time, etc. I
> >> > tried googling the answer but none of the grammar blogs I found had an
> >> > entry for this.
> >>
> >> What did the 7 Years war own?
> >> Here in the U.S.A we call it the French & Indian War, and as an American
> >> *
> >> started it our name should take precedence.
> >>
> >> * George Washington started it when he attacked a French force near what
> >> would become Pittsburg Pa.while George in the service of Va.
> >
> > Come on, that's just an irrelevant side show,
> >
> > Jan
>
> Nothing is or was irrelevent about the control of the North American
> continent.
The whole American continent was quite irrelevant at the time.
> And the war started here and spread to Europe and India.
Sure, that's why WW I should be called the Serbian war, really,
Jan
Don Aitken
<raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Which means that it lasted *eight* years, so it is hardly surprising
that Americans don't call it the Seven Years' War. Possibly residual
guilt over the fact that Washington's carryings-on took place before
war was declared; Americans don't like it when other people do that to
them.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Evan Kirshenbaum
> On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:01:59 -0400, "Raymond O'Hara"
> <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>And the war started here and spread to Europe and India.
>>
> Which means that it lasted *eight* years,
Nine, actually, from early 1754 to early 1763, although from the point
of view of those of us who learned to call it the French and Indian
War, it essentially ended in 1760 with the surrender of Montreal.
> so it is hardly surprising that Americans don't call it the Seven
> Years' War. Possibly residual guilt over the fact that Washington's
> carryings-on took place before war was declared; Americans don't
> like it when other people do that to them.
When was the last time the US refused an official government demand to
withdraw from disputed territory and then got upset when uniformed
military forces from that country attacked their military
installations in those disputed territories?
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |I value writers such as Fiske.
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |They serve as valuable object
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |lessons by showing that the most
|punctilious compliance with the
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |rules of usage has so little to do
(650)857-7572 |with either writing or thinking
|well.
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/ | --Richard Hershberger
Raymond O'Hara
WWI was started by Austria, which also started the Napoleonic and the 30
Years Wars too.
J. J. Lodder
> "J. J. Lodder" <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
> news:1ijrsmo.qm2...@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
> > Raymond O'Hara <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> "J. J. Lodder" <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
> >> news:1ijrccv.1xt...@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
> >> > Raymond O'Hara <raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> "prr" <psaulmon...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >> news:dcbd8d82-a3a2-4c5f...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com..
> >> >> > What is the rule for putting (or not) the possessive at the end of a
> >> >> > length of time? E.g., Seven Years' War, three days' time, etc. I
> >> >> > tried googling the answer but none of the grammar blogs I found had
> >> >> > an
> >> >> > entry for this.
> >> >>
> >> >> What did the 7 Years war own?
> >> >> Here in the U.S.A we call it the French & Indian War, and as an
> >> >> American
> >> >> *
> >> >> started it our name should take precedence.
> >> >>
> >> >> * George Washington started it when he attacked a French force near
> >> >> what
> >> >> would become Pittsburg Pa.while George in the service of Va.
> >> >
> >> > Come on, that's just an irrelevant side show,
> >> >
> >> > Jan
> >>
> >> Nothing is or was irrelevent about the control of the North American
> >> continent.
> >
> > The whole American continent was quite irrelevant at the time.
> >
> >> And the war started here and spread to Europe and India.
> >
> > Sure, that's why WW I should be called the Serbian war, really,
> >
> > Jan
> >
>
> WWI was started by Austria, which also started the Napoleonic and the 30
> Years Wars too.
They didn't fire the first shot,
Jan
Leslie Danks
>
> "J. J. Lodder" <nos...@de-ster.demon.nl> wrote in message
> news:1ijrsmo.qm2...@de-ster.xs4all.nl...
[...]
>> Sure, that's why WW I should be called the Serbian war, really,
> WWI was started by Austria, which also started the Napoleonic and the 30
> Years Wars too.
Golly! Isn't history simple.
--
Les
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
Indeed. Does anyone know what Austria has planned for the
future?
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Raymond O'Hara
Yeah they did, in 1914 they shelled Belgrade from two river monitor.
In 1618 they attacked Prague {Battle of White Mt.}
In 1793 Austria and its ally Savoy invaded French allies and possessions in
northwer Italy.
The Hapsburgs were trouble makers.
R H Draney
I like to think of it as "Prinzip's War"....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
Raymond O'Hara
"Leslie Danks" <leslie...@aon.at> wrote in message
news:4873d415$0$2147$91ce...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...
It is for you when you only accept the propaganda.
It's ironic that the british narrative about Napoleon trying to conquer the
world is accepted when it was the British who were grabbing up colonies
everywhere.
Robert Bannister
The Seven Years('s) War was between Saxony and Prussia.
--
Rob Bannister
Raymond O'Hara
"Robert Bannister" <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:6digo2F...@mid.individual.net...
And France and England and Austria and Bavaria and Russia with several minor
powers like Naples and Sardinia thrown in to spice up the stew.
The Seven Years War was the first world war.
Steve Hayes
>On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:01:59 -0400, "Raymond O'Hara"
>>And the war started here and spread to Europe and India.
>>
>Which means that it lasted *eight* years, so it is hardly surprising
>that Americans don't call it the Seven Years' War. Possibly residual
>guilt over the fact that Washington's carryings-on took place before
>war was declared; Americans don't like it when other people do that to
>them.
And then one could ask when WWII started. It started at different time in
different parts of the world.
In Europe one could say it started on 1 Sep 1939, with the German invasion of
Poland, but in Africa it started three years earlier, with the Italian
invasion of Ethiopia (then generally called Abyssinia), and in Asia earlier
still, with the Japanese invasion of Manchuria.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
J. J. Lodder
> On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 19:33:11 +0100, Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>
> >On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:01:59 -0400, "Raymond O'Hara"
> >>And the war started here and spread to Europe and India.
> >>
> >Which means that it lasted *eight* years, so it is hardly surprising
> >that Americans don't call it the Seven Years' War. Possibly residual
> >guilt over the fact that Washington's carryings-on took place before
> >war was declared; Americans don't like it when other people do that to
> >them.
>
> And then one could ask when WWII started. It started at different time in
> different parts of the world.
>
> In Europe one could say it started on 1 Sep 1939, with the German invasion of
> Poland, but in Africa it started three years earlier, with the Italian
> invasion of Ethiopia (then generally called Abyssinia), and in Asia earlier
> still, with the Japanese invasion of Manchuria.
What does, or doesn't count as part of WWII
is a matter of convention only.
The more or les standard convention is that these don't count,
and that WWII starts with the German invasion of Poland,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
Yes, and The Great War was a war between France and Germany.
It was about the possession of the Alsace-Loraine.
France won.
Jan
J. J. Lodder
Winston Churchill seems to have been the first to say so,
Jan
Mike Lyle
> Raymond O'Hara wrote:
>
>> news:4873d415$0$2147$91ce...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...
>>> Raymond O'Hara wrote:
>
>
>>>> WWI was started by Austria, which also started the Napoleonic and
>>>> the 30 Years Wars too.
>>>
>>> Golly! Isn't history simple.
>
>
> intelligence, but a generalisation (which you could have omitted
> without changing the meaning).
>
>> It's ironic that the british narrative about Napoleon trying to
>> conquer the world is accepted when it was the British who were
>> grabbing up colonies everywhere.
Even allowing for your familiar pottiness on this and related subjects,
Raymond, I find it hard to imagine anybody seriously suggesting that the
British deny the charge. On the other hand, as is well known, poor
little old Napoleon only found himself in places like Egypt and the
suburbs of Moscow as an unfortunate result of having been tempted by a
dodgy bargain GPS in Amazon's spring sale: could happen to any
democratically-elected Emperor, for heaven's sake!
--
Mike.
LFS
Love it! What other historical events could have turned out very
differently had modern technology been available?
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
HVS
> On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 19:33:11 +0100, Don Aitken
> <don-a...@freeuk.com> wrote:
> And then one could ask when WWII started. It started at
> different time in different parts of the world.
>
> In Europe one could say it started on 1 Sep 1939, with the
> German invasion of Poland, but in Africa it started three years
> earlier, with the Italian invasion of Ethiopia (then generally
> called Abyssinia), and in Asia earlier still, with the Japanese
> invasion of Manchuria.
This is a favourite game in historical studies: I'm sure it would be
a fairly simple thing to back-date the start of World War II to, say,
Napoleon.
(I recall one of my profs making the point that in art-historical
terms, "20th century modernism" began c.1880 and was finished by the
mid 1920s...)
Mike L
> Mike Lyle wrote:
> > Leslie Danks wrote:
> >> Raymond O'Hara wrote:
>
Well, three occasions come to mind.
"Don't be so superstitious, Caspar! It's only a supernova."
"We've just had an email from a lady in Punt who's heard it's going to
rain for forty days and forty nights. Well, it isn't."
"Bloody hell, Sergeant! The DNA on the weapon shows it can't have been
Cain!"
--
Mike.
Leslie Danks
If I bump into Otto Hapsburg in the pub I shall ask him if he has designs
on South Tyrol.
--
Les
R H Draney
>
>Mike Lyle wrote:
>>
>> Even allowing for your familiar pottiness on this and related subjects,
>> Raymond, I find it hard to imagine anybody seriously suggesting that the
>> British deny the charge. On the other hand, as is well known, poor
>> little old Napoleon only found himself in places like Egypt and the
>> suburbs of Moscow as an unfortunate result of having been tempted by a
>> dodgy bargain GPS in Amazon's spring sale: could happen to any
>> democratically-elected Emperor, for heaven's sake!
>
>Love it! What other historical events could have turned out very
>differently had modern technology been available?
The Battle of New Orleans wouldn't have happened...Douglas Corrigan would have
needed a different nickname or at least a better excuse...the money spent to
build the Maginot Line could have been applied to something more useful....
And if Moctezuma Xocoyotzin could have Googled Cortés, he would have had him put
to death the minute he stepped ashore....r
J. J. Lodder
Sure, WWII started right after the end of the Middle Ages,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
You won't bump into.
If you tried to bump into Otto von Habsburg
you might stand a chance,
Jan
--
Otto von Habsburg ..............
Titular: King of Jerusalem
1 April 1922 – present
Reason for succession failure:
Kingdom conquered in 1291 (wiki)
Leslie Danks
> Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:
[...]
>> If I bump into Otto Hapsburg in the pub I shall ask him if he has
>> designs on South Tyrol.
>
> You won't bump into.
> If you tried to bump into Otto von Habsburg
> you might stand a chance,
These geezers were all de-vonned, mate, and some people take that
seriously:
[quote]
A man as intelligent as Otto Hapsburg has said that Putin is a very
dangerous man.
[endquote]
<http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=365
[quote]
It would mean the return of a political gigolo like Otto Hapsburg as King
of Austria, the loss of the Rhine and Ruhr to France, and Pommeria,
Siliesia, and Brandenburg to Poland.
[endquote]
<http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb17.htm><
Yes, I know that most of the dispossessed nobility still use their titles
and, if challenged, could claim that the "von" or "Graf" etc. is now
simply part of their name and doesn't imply any claim to lost political
power. What I find a bit creepy is the way many Austrians still fawn upon
people with a title, even a defunct pre-1918 one. In Bad Ischl, where
Emperor Franz-Josef used to spend his summers shooting everything (on 4
legs) that moved and eating one Guglhupf after the other [1], there is a
group of men whose vocation in life is to scour the streets and cafes of
the town looking for Hapsburgs in order to salute them in the traditional
way.
[1]
<http://www.wienerzeitung.at/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4733&Alias=wzo&cob=334019¤tpage=2>
<http://tinyurl.com/5sn78r>
[translation by me]
And in the Schratt Villa, Emperor Franz Josef ate his Guglhupf punctually
every morning at half past six and flirted with the actress Katherina
Schratt, his soulmate, while Sisi (his wife) sipped her tea alone in the
Kaiservilla.
The Schratt Villa is now a restaurant for those not short of euro or two.
If anyone's thinking of luring an emperor, here's a recipe for Guglhupf:
<http://www.internationalrecipes.net/recipes/view.pl?828>
--
Les
(von und zu BrE)
Leslie Danks
> "Leslie Danks" <leslie...@aon.at> wrote in message
> news:4873d415$0$2147$91ce...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...
>> Raymond O'Hara wrote:
[...]
>>> WWI was started by Austria, which also started the Napoleonic and the
>>> 30 Years Wars too.
>>
>> Golly! Isn't history simple.
> It is for you when you only accept the propaganda.
ObAUE: I assume "for you" wasn't a personal attack on my intelligence, but
a generalisation (which you could have omitted without changing the
meaning).
> It's ironic that the british narrative about Napoleon trying to conquer
> the world is accepted when it was the British who were grabbing up
> colonies everywhere.
--
Les
J. J. Lodder
> J. J. Lodder wrote:
>
> > Leslie Danks <leslie...@aon.at> wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> >> If I bump into Otto Hapsburg in the pub I shall ask him if he has
> >> designs on South Tyrol.
> >
> > You won't bump into.
> > If you tried to bump into Otto von Habsburg
> > you might stand a chance,
>
> These geezers were all de-vonned, mate, and some people take that
> seriously:
Only in Austria.
> [quote]
> A man as intelligent as Otto Hapsburg has said that Putin is a very
> dangerous man.
> [endquote]
> <http://www.chroniclesmagazine.org/?p=365
>
> [quote]
> It would mean the return of a political gigolo like Otto Hapsburg as King
> of Austria, the loss of the Rhine and Ruhr to France, and Pommeria,
> Siliesia, and Brandenburg to Poland.
> [endquote]
> <http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/goeb17.htm><
>
>
> Yes, I know that most of the dispossessed nobility still use their titles
> and, if challenged, could claim that the "von" or "Graf" etc. is now
> simply part of their name and doesn't imply any claim to lost political
> power.
That's the German way,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
An e-mail from the Kaiser consisting only of M-s
would have been just as insulting as a telegram of the same,
Jan
John Kane
> Mike Lyle wrote:
> > Leslie Danks wrote:
> >> Raymond O'Hara wrote:
>
Dodgy GPS?
March of the Ten Thousand sees Greek restaurants opening in Bejing.
Christopher Columbus discovers Antarctica.
First Crusade liberated Dublin.
Eric the Red settles in Rio de Janiero.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
R H Draney
>>
>> Love it! What other historical events could have turned out very
>> differently had modern technology been available?
Martin Luther hacks the www.schlosskirche.org website, replacing the home page
with a link to his own blog, www.fuenf-und-neunzig.com.
tony cooper
>>On Jul 9, 1:15=A0pm, LFS <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> Love it! What other historical events could have turned out very
>>> differently had modern technology been available?
>
>Martin Luther hacks the www.schlosskirche.org website, replacing the home page
>with a link to his own blog, www.fuenf-und-neunzig.com.
>
Mary Todd Lincoln reads a bad online review of "Our American Cousin"
and suggests that they stay home that night.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Jonathan Morton
>
> What does, or doesn't count as part of WWII
> is a matter of convention only.
> The more or les standard convention is that these don't count,
> and that WWII starts with the German invasion of Poland,
Strictly speaking, with the expiry of the British and French ultimatum two
days later on 3rd September.
Regards
Jonathan
R H Draney
...and play with the Wii?...r
Richard Bollard
Joseph to Mary: "I want a blood test, now!"
The Macedonian Royal family: Phillip, his crazy wife and their
brilliant-but-disturbed son Alexander, trying to work out their
problems on Dr Phil.
Marie Antoinette being coached by spin-doctors before an appearance on
Oprah to try to explain away the cake comment (that's gone viral on
YouTube).
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Robert Bannister
I would have thought the Thirty Years War had a better claim.
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
This was only a continuation of the dispute between Charlemagne's
grandsons, so I suppose the middle son won the youngest son's inheritance.
--
Rob Bannister
Garrett Wollman
HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>This is a favourite game in historical studies: I'm sure it would be
>a fairly simple thing to back-date the start of World War II to, say,
>Napoleon.
And it clearly didn't end until 1992 -- assuming it actually is over
yet. (Have the Russians and the Japanese made peace yet?)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wol...@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Mark Brader
>> Love it! What other historical events could have turned out very
>> differently had modern technology been available?
> Joseph to Mary: "I want a blood test, now!"
I don't think we can top that one, really, but this is fun, so...
The Zimmermann Telegram is transmitted using secure encryption, the US
never enters World War I, and the North American rights to the trade
names Bayer and Aspirin remain in the hands of the Bayer company.
John Tyler and Chester Arthur never get to be president.
Lord Cardigan, commanding the Light Brigade, gets a radio message,
"No, not *those* guns!"
At Galileo's heresy trial, he tries to cite Wikipedia in support of
his scientific views, but it's been edited by the prosecution and
says what *they* want, so he's still convicted.
Christopher Columbus cancels his voyage westward to Asia after checking
Google Earth and discovering the Americas blocking the route.
The Disney company lobbies for another 20-year copyright-term
extension, so that their animated characters will still be in
copyright even after the imminent expiry of the existing 27,395-year
term.
--
Mark Brader, Toronto | "This is as 'real' as your so-called life gets!"
m...@vex.net | "Q Who", ST:TNG, Maurice Hurley
My text in this article is in the public domain.
Mark Brader
> This is a favourite game in historical studies: I'm sure it would be
> a fairly simple thing to back-date the start of World War II to, say,
> Napoleon.
Or at least to 1914.
--
Mark Brader | "We didn't just track down that bug,
Toronto | we left evidence of its extermination
m...@vex.net | as a warning to other bugs" --Dan Lyke
Steve Hayes
Why?
Why "strictly" speaking?
Why that date rather than the invasion of Manchuria, or Ethiopia, or the USSR,
or the bombing of Pearl Harbour?
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Web: http://hayesfam.bravehost.com/stevesig.htm
Blog: http://methodius.blogspot.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Isabelle Cecchini
[...]
Not strictly history, but here it goes:
"I beseech you, Emilia, hand me forthwith my box of tissues" 1604
Shakesp. Oth. II. iv
"...i've talked with frier laurie. he'll tell u about his plan, it's
wicked, check yur e-mail. i luv u. julie"
-------
Subject: redecorating
From: Gertie <ger...@denmark.gov>
Newsgroup: alt.support.second.marriage
Dear all
I'm thinking of replacing the old moth-eaten arras with cheerful
wallpaper, possibly in a large tasteful flowery pattern, with daisies,
violets, and maybe a sprig or two of rosemary and rue. Has anyone got
experience with wallpaper on rather damp walls?
TIA
Gertie
Hubby is no help, as ever, and the sprog is still sulking. Fat help
they're going to be.
Note to dear Jane E.:
Yes, of course, you should redo the attic, and don't let Mr R. talk you
out of it.
-------------
--
Isabelle Cecchini
Mike Lyle
> Harvey Van SIckle:
>> This is a favourite game in historical studies: I'm sure it would be
>> a fairly simple thing to back-date the start of World War II to, say,
>> Napoleon.
>
> Or at least to 1914.
I don't think that's in the least controversial. To me, though, it quite
obviously originates in the break-up of the Roman Empire: there never
seems to have been a trouble-free liquidation of an empire. All these
successor states are nothing but a nuisance.
--
Mike.
J. J. Lodder
Formally, yes. There is something to be said though
for starting at the actual start of the hostilities.
It is a standard controversy,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
Sure, they all want to be the empire,
so the trouble won't stop until it has been restored.
We'll have to conquer the Middle East,
or the Middle East will conquer us,
Jan
HVS
> Mark Brader wrote:
>> Harvey Van SIckle:
>>> This is a favourite game in historical studies: I'm sure it
>>> would be a fairly simple thing to back-date the start of World
>>> War II to, say, Napoleon.
>>
>> Or at least to 1914.
>
> I don't think that's in the least controversial. To me, though,
> it quite obviously originates in the break-up of the Roman
> Empire:
Now you're just being silly.
It's clearly not that recent at all; started at least when Greece
started to break up.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
the Omrud
Ah, but what is the date of the break-up of the Roman Empire, say to the
nearest five years?
--
David
HVS
Final end? 1806, innnit.
Don Aitken
(Garrett Wollman) wrote:
>In article <Xns9AD66505...@news.albasani.net>,
>HVS <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>This is a favourite game in historical studies: I'm sure it would be
>>a fairly simple thing to back-date the start of World War II to, say,
>>Napoleon.
>
>And it clearly didn't end until 1992 -- assuming it actually is over
>yet. (Have the Russians and the Japanese made peace yet?)
>
Japan and the Soviet Union are still at war, if an entity which
doesn't exist can be at war. In which case, it seems there is no way
that war can ever come to an end.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Don Aitken
Hardly. Not a shot was fired outside central Europe.
The Seven Years' War involved fighting in India, Africa and the
Carribean, as well as Europe and North America.
Steve Hayes
wrote:
>Ah, but what is the date of the break-up of the Roman Empire, say to the
>nearest five years?
About 400-1453
LFS
<applause>
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Raymond O'Hara
"Mike Lyle" <mike_l...@REMOVETHISyahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:g52pu0$4du$1...@registered.motzarella.org...
> Leslie Danks wrote:
>> Raymond O'Hara wrote:
>>
>>> news:4873d415$0$2147$91ce...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...
>>>> Raymond O'Hara wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>>> WWI was started by Austria, which also started the Napoleonic and
>>>>> the 30 Years Wars too.
>>>>
>>>> Golly! Isn't history simple.
>>
>>> It is for you when you only accept the propaganda.
>>
>> ObAUE: I assume "for you" wasn't a personal attack on my
>> intelligence, but a generalisation (which you could have omitted
>> without changing the meaning).
>>
>>> It's ironic that the british narrative about Napoleon trying to
>>> conquer the world is accepted when it was the British who were
>>> grabbing up colonies everywhere.
>
> Raymond, I find it hard to imagine anybody seriously suggesting that the
> British deny the charge. On the other hand, as is well known, poor little
> old Napoleon only found himself in places like Egypt and the suburbs of
> Moscow as an unfortunate result of having been tempted by a dodgy bargain
> GPS in Amazon's spring sale: could happen to any democratically-elected
> Emperor, for heaven's sake!
>
> Mike.
>
>
Egypt was an odd adventure.
Napoleone Buonoparte{he changed his spelling so the French wouldn't notice
he was an Italian} beat Austria and Prussia and yet they remained
independent and in possession of all their lands.
He defeated Russia and made them agree to his terms at Tilsit and took none
of their lands.
Raymond O'Hara
"LFS" <la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6dka12F...@mid.individual.net...
> Mike Lyle wrote:
>> Leslie Danks wrote:
>>> Raymond O'Hara wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Leslie Danks" <leslie...@aon.at> wrote in message
>>>> news:4873d415$0$2147$91ce...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...
>>>>> Raymond O'Hara wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>>> WWI was started by Austria, which also started the Napoleonic and
>>>>>> the 30 Years Wars too.
>>>>> Golly! Isn't history simple.
>>>> It is for you when you only accept the propaganda.
>>> ObAUE: I assume "for you" wasn't a personal attack on my
>>> intelligence, but a generalisation (which you could have omitted
>>> without changing the meaning).
>>>
>>>> It's ironic that the british narrative about Napoleon trying to
>>>> conquer the world is accepted when it was the British who were
>>>> grabbing up colonies everywhere.
>>
>> Even allowing for your familiar pottiness on this and related subjects,
>> Raymond, I find it hard to imagine anybody seriously suggesting that the
>> British deny the charge. On the other hand, as is well known, poor little
>> old Napoleon only found himself in places like Egypt and the suburbs of
>> Moscow as an unfortunate result of having been tempted by a dodgy bargain
>> GPS in Amazon's spring sale: could happen to any democratically-elected
>> Emperor, for heaven's sake!
>>
>
> differently had modern technology been available?
>
> Laura
> (emulate St. George for email)
>
>
>
Nappy wasn't lost, he knew where he was, he was too far from home.
Contrary to popular myth it wasn't the winter that doomed the French and
later the Germans, it was the distance.
Raymond O'Hara
"Jonathan Morton" <jona...@jonathanmortonbutignorethisbit.co.uk> wrote in
message news:U4adnRmKoP4PoOjV...@bt.com...
Well then it wasn't a world war until America and Japan got involved on
Dec7-8 1941.
> Jonathan
>
Raymond O'Hara
"Steve Hayes" <haye...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:l6e874pta7s3jjh98...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 19:33:11 +0100, Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com>
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 8 Jul 2008 11:01:59 -0400, "Raymond O'Hara"
>>>And the war started here and spread to Europe and India.
>>>
>>Which means that it lasted *eight* years, so it is hardly surprising
>>that Americans don't call it the Seven Years' War. Possibly residual
>>guilt over the fact that Washington's carryings-on took place before
>>war was declared; Americans don't like it when other people do that to
>>them.
>
> And then one could ask when WWII started. It started at different time in
> different parts of the world.
>
> In Europe one could say it started on 1 Sep 1939, with the German invasion
> of
> Poland, but in Africa it started three years earlier, with the Italian
> invasion of Ethiopia (then generally called Abyssinia), and in Asia
> earlier
> still, with the Japanese invasion of Manchuria.
>
Manchuria{Manchukuo} was a Japnese puppet state of long standing. It was the
invasion of China proper that caused the troubles.
That started with the staged "Marco Polo Bridge Incident" in 1937.
Mark Brader
> Well then it wasn't a world war until America and Japan got involved on
> Dec7-8 1941.
Yeah, and what *about* that December 7-8 business? In the US they seem
to think they were at war on December 7, the day before their Congress
actually declared war; yet when Japan made the first military attacks
on December 8 they were vilified for doing it in peacetime. Is that
fair, *hmmmmm*?
[Clue: gvzr mbarf.]
--
Mark Brader | "... a movement is already under way to declare December 7
Toronto | an annual legal holiday in commemoration of the opening of
m...@vex.net | hostilities." -- Ring Lardner, New York Times, 1931
Mark Brader
>> Strictly speaking, with the expiry of the British and French ultimatum two
>> days later on 3rd September.
> Why?
>
> Why "strictly" speaking? Why that date rather than the invasion of
> Manchuria, or Ethiopia, or the USSR, or the bombing of Pearl Harbour?
On the grounds that it wasn't "strictly speaking" a world war until there
were two or more world powers involved. (And then once that principle is
agreed to, one merely needs to adjust the list of 1930s world powers until
the date one wants is achieved.)
--
Mark Brader, Toronto "He seems unable to win without the added
m...@vex.net thrill of changing sides." -- Chess
Lanarcam
> Napoleone Buonoparte{he changed his spelling so the French wouldn't notice
> he was an Italian}
Mamma mia, don't ever say that in Ajaccio, have
you never heard of the vendetta?
Raymond O'Hara
"Mark Brader" <m...@vex.net> wrote in message
news:ZZ6dnZPspqtxyuvV...@vex.net...
> Ray O'Hara:
>> Well then it wasn't a world war until America and Japan got involved on
>> Dec7-8 1941.
>
> Yeah, and what *about* that December 7-8 business? In the US they seem
> to think they were at war on December 7, the day before their Congress
> actually declared war; yet when Japan made the first military attacks
> on December 8 they were vilified for doing it in peacetime. Is that
> fair, *hmmmmm*?
Yeah the attacks on Dec 8th took place before the one on Dec 7th.
Raymond O'Hara
"the Omrud" <usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote in message
news:I0ndk.24253$E41....@text.news.virginmedia.com...
Rome fizzled out it never really fell and if you look at the trappings of
the U.S.Senate it still lives on.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seal_of_the_United_States_Senate
Raymond O'Hara
"Lanarcam" <lana...@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:48766748$0$15524$426a...@news.free.fr...
Corsican is an Italian dialect.
J. J. Lodder
> On 10 Jul 2008, Mike Lyle wrote
>
> > Mark Brader wrote:
> >> Harvey Van SIckle:
> >>> This is a favourite game in historical studies: I'm sure it
> >>> would be a fairly simple thing to back-date the start of World
> >>> War II to, say, Napoleon.
> >>
> >> Or at least to 1914.
> >
> > I don't think that's in the least controversial. To me, though,
> > it quite obviously originates in the break-up of the Roman
> > Empire:
>
> Now you're just being silly.
>
> It's clearly not that recent at all; started at least when Greece
> started to break up.
There never was any Greece to break up.
Those Greeks have always been to damn argumentative
for their own good,
Jan
Richard Bollard
<raymon...@hotmail.com> wrote:
[...]
>
>Manchuria{Manchukuo} was a Japnese puppet state of long standing. It was the
>invasion of China proper that caused the troubles.
>That started with the staged "Marco Polo Bridge Incident" in 1937.
>
"Six-a no trumps"
"You bastard!"
--
Richard Bollard
Canberra Australia
To email, I'm at AMT not spAMT.
Garrett Wollman
Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>Japan and the Soviet Union are still at war, if an entity which
>doesn't exist can be at war. In which case, it seems there is no way
>that war can ever come to an end.
Russia is generally considered to have inherited the international
standing of the USSR upon the latter's dissolution. (Certainly the
U.S. thinks its treaties with the S.U. are binding upon Russia, and
likewise upon itself with respect to Russia, unless otherwise
abrogated or superseded by more recent agreements.)
-GAWollman
--
Garrett A. Wollman | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
wol...@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness
Robert Bannister
In fact, I would applaud all efforts so far, but I can't help feeling
that many of these scenarios have either been written or soon will be
written by Tom Holt.
--
Rob Bannister
Garrett Wollman
Robert Bannister <rob...@bigpond.com> wrote:
>In fact, I would applaud all efforts so far, but I can't help feeling
>that many of these scenarios have either been written or soon will be
>written by Tom Holt.
I was going to say Jasper Fforde, myself....
Steve Hayes
Wollman) wrote:
>In article <469c74tuivkmaac3p...@4ax.com>,
>Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>
>>Japan and the Soviet Union are still at war, if an entity which
>>doesn't exist can be at war. In which case, it seems there is no way
>>that war can ever come to an end.
>
>Russia is generally considered to have inherited the international
>standing of the USSR upon the latter's dissolution. (Certainly the
>U.S. thinks its treaties with the S.U. are binding upon Russia, and
>likewise upon itself with respect to Russia, unless otherwise
>abrogated or superseded by more recent agreements.)
Whatever happened to the CIS?
J. J. Lodder
> In article <469c74tuivkmaac3p...@4ax.com>,
> Don Aitken <don-a...@freeuk.com> wrote:
>
> >Japan and the Soviet Union are still at war, if an entity which
> >doesn't exist can be at war. In which case, it seems there is no way
> >that war can ever come to an end.
>
> Russia is generally considered to have inherited the international
> standing of the USSR upon the latter's dissolution. (Certainly the
> U.S. thinks its treaties with the S.U. are binding upon Russia, and
> likewise upon itself with respect to Russia, unless otherwise
> abrogated or superseded by more recent agreements.)
Strange isn't it?
The USA always thinks treaties with other countries
are binding on successor governments.
OTOH the USA can always scrap treaties unilaterally
with the election of the next president,
(if from the other party)
Jan
John Holmes
>
> The Schratt Villa is now a restaurant for those not short of euro or
> two. If anyone's thinking of luring an emperor, here's a recipe for
> Guglhupf:
>
> <http://www.internationalrecipes.net/recipes/view.pl?828>
A /whole packet/ of baking powder? They must be very light.
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
John Holmes
French and Italian are dialects of Corsican.
Donna Richoux
> Leslie Danks wrote:
> >
> > The Schratt Villa is now a restaurant for those not short of euro or
> > two. If anyone's thinking of luring an emperor, here's a recipe for
> > Guglhupf:
> >
> > <http://www.internationalrecipes.net/recipes/view.pl?828>
>
> A /whole packet/ of baking powder? They must be very light.
Tiny little packets. Here's a package of 6 packets:
http://gdcom.stores.yahoo.net/rufbabpo6p.html
Trying to explain, say, my American recipes to European friends can be
very tedious, with nearly every line requiring conversion or comment ("I
get that in the US...")
--
Best -- Donna Richoux
Mike Lyle
>>> Guglhupf:
>>>
>>> <http://www.internationalrecipes.net/recipes/view.pl?828>
>>
>> A /whole packet/ of baking powder? They must be very light.
>
> Tiny little packets. Here's a package of 6 packets:
> http://gdcom.stores.yahoo.net/rufbabpo6p.html
>
go stale if sent out in greater bulk? (IME, it doesn't.) Nice bit of
only-slightly-German English, though:
<As a can-do-all, RUF Baking Powder has a long tradition. It makes every
type of dough nice and fluffy, and one single bag is enough for
preparing baked goods with 500 g of flour. One package contains 6 single
bags.
NET WT.3.42 OZ (97g)
Als wahrer Alleskönner hat RUF Backpulver eine lange Tradition. Es macht
den Teig aller Arten schön locker und reicht pro Einzelbeutel für die
Zubereitung von Gebäck mit 500 g Mehl. Die Verkaufsverpackung enthält 6
Einzelbeutel.>
I particularly liked "can-do-all".
--
Mike.
Roland Hutchinson
> Donna Richoux wrote:
>> John Holmes <see...@instead.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Leslie Danks wrote:
> [...]
>>>> Guglhupf:
>>>>
>>>> <http://www.internationalrecipes.net/recipes/view.pl?828>
>>>
>>> A /whole packet/ of baking powder? They must be very light.
>>
>> Tiny little packets. Here's a package of 6 packets:
>> http://gdcom.stores.yahoo.net/rufbabpo6p.html
>>
> What a crazed idea! Unless I'm missing something: are they afraid it'll
> go stale if sent out in greater bulk? (IME, it doesn't.)
That can't be it. They do liquid flavorings (e.g. almond extract) the same
way. I'm not sure if they do vanilla as a liquid or a powder, but it comes
in single-recipe doses in either case.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
Aren't two avocadoes two avocadoes, three lemons three lemons and a
spud a spud, Donna?
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
Raymond O'Hara
Treaties one president signs are binding on his successors.
Any country can unilaterally withdraw from any treaty.
The U.S.A. has a long way to go before we match the atrocities your country
has committed.
If it wasn't for Belgium Holland would be the worst of the colonial powers.
Roland Hutchinson
> If it wasn't for Belgium Holland would be the worst of the colonial
> powers.
Quibble: the worst of Belgian atrocities were not committed by the country
but by the monarch in his personal domains.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<la...@DRAGONspira.fsbusiness.co.uk> wrote:
>Mike Lyle wrote:
>> Leslie Danks wrote:
>>> Raymond O'Hara wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Leslie Danks" <leslie...@aon.at> wrote in message
>>>> news:4873d415$0$2147$91ce...@newsreader02.highway.telekom.at...
>>>>> Raymond O'Hara wrote:
>>> [...]
>>>
>>>>>> WWI was started by Austria, which also started the Napoleonic and
>>>>>> the 30 Years Wars too.
>>>>> Golly! Isn't history simple.
>>>> It is for you when you only accept the propaganda.
>>> ObAUE: I assume "for you" wasn't a personal attack on my
>>> intelligence, but a generalisation (which you could have omitted
>>> without changing the meaning).
>>>
>>>> It's ironic that the british narrative about Napoleon trying to
>>>> conquer the world is accepted when it was the British who were
>>>> grabbing up colonies everywhere.
>>
>> Even allowing for your familiar pottiness on this and related subjects,
>> Raymond, I find it hard to imagine anybody seriously suggesting that the
>> British deny the charge. On the other hand, as is well known, poor
>> little old Napoleon only found himself in places like Egypt and the
>> suburbs of Moscow as an unfortunate result of having been tempted by a
>> dodgy bargain GPS in Amazon's spring sale: could happen to any
>> democratically-elected Emperor, for heaven's sake!
>>
>
>Love it! What other historical events could have turned out very
>differently had modern technology been available?
I've been trying to create a scenario in the Garden of Eden --
with a total lack of success.
The combination of Adam and Eve with their normal human natures,
The Tree in the middle of the Garden, and the stern injunction
not to eat its fruit was bound to result in illicit fruit-eating
sooner or later. The talking serpent just speeded things up.
Obviously if both Adam and Eve had been shot dead by an early
version of Dick Cheney before they could eat the fruit then
things would have turned out enormously differently, but I see
that as too big a change in history for our purposes.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
HVS
If they'd had the Internet, Adam might've turned out to be a geeky
luser who never managed to bed Eve -- and none of us would exist.
Or something like that.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
Skitt
> Donna Richoux wrote:
>>> Leslie Danks wrote:
But they lost the "true".
--
Skitt (AmE)
tony cooper
Headline: God fined by the FCC for allowing a "wardrobe malfunction";
Adam's fig leaf falls.
Headline: Adam sues God.
Quote: "I asked for a mate. I meant a bloke to go down to pub with,
not a bloody boss".
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Default User
> Donna Richoux wrote:
> >John Holmes <see...@instead.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Leslie Danks wrote:
> [...]
> > > > Guglhupf:
> > > >
> > > > <http://www.internationalrecipes.net/recipes/view.pl?828>
> > >
> > > A /whole packet/ of baking powder? They must be very light.
> >
> > Tiny little packets. Here's a package of 6 packets:
> > http://gdcom.stores.yahoo.net/rufbabpo6p.html
> >
> What a crazed idea! Unless I'm missing something: are they afraid
> it'll go stale if sent out in greater bulk? (IME, it doesn't.)
Actually, baking powder does go bad after a time. It takes a few years
though. It's well worth it to check the date on the can before you make
something, as baking powder that's lost its pizazz can ruin a baked
item.
Brian
--
If televison's a babysitter, the Internet is a drunk librarian who
won't shut up.
-- Dorothy Gambrell (http://catandgirl.com)
R H Draney
>>very tedious, with nearly every line requiring conversion or comment ("I
>>get that in the US...")
>
>Aren't two avocadoes two avocadoes, three lemons three lemons and a
>spud a spud, Donna?
But Tesco wraps them in plastic, thinking that somehow suggests "freshness"....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
Raymond O'Hara
"HVS" <use...@REMOVETHISwhhvs.co.uk> wrote in message
news:Xns9AD8C097...@news.albasani.net...
>
> If they'd had the Internet, Adam might've turned out to be a geeky
> luser who never managed to bed Eve -- and none of us would exist.
>
> Or something like that.
>
> --
> Cheers, Harvey
> CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
>
If god had created St Patrick instead of adam we might still be in the
garden.
Robin Bignall
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
"Eve, keep that apple away from me. I'm a pc man myself. Oh, and
take this axe I've just invented and chop that noisy serpent's head
off. I'm too busy invented operating systems to listen to him. All
that begatting sounds boring."
>The combination of Adam and Eve with their normal human natures,
>The Tree in the middle of the Garden, and the stern injunction
>not to eat its fruit was bound to result in illicit fruit-eating
>sooner or later. The talking serpent just speeded things up.
>
>Obviously if both Adam and Eve had been shot dead by an early
>version of Dick Cheney before they could eat the fruit then
>things would have turned out enormously differently, but I see
>that as too big a change in history for our purposes.
--
Robin
(BrE)
Herts, England
HVS
Laying turf, and shouting "it's da green side up, ya' eejit"...
J. J. Lodder
> Raymond O'Hara wrote:
> > "Lanarcam" <lana...@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
> > news:48766748$0$15524$426a...@news.free.fr...
> >> Raymond O'Hara wrote:
> >>
> >>> Napoleone Buonoparte{he changed his spelling so the French wouldn't
> >>> notice he was an Italian}
> >>
> >> Mamma mia, don't ever say that in Ajaccio, have
> >> you never heard of the vendetta?
> >
> > Corsican is an Italian dialect.
>
> French and Italian are dialects of Corsican.
And English is nothing but Corsican badly pronounced,
Jan
J. J. Lodder
The Dutch merely transported slaves
(supplied at the harbour pre-packaged in chains by African kings)
for Americans to commit atrocities upon.
Jan
J. J. Lodder
> Raymond O'Hara wrote:
>
> > If it wasn't for Belgium Holland would be the worst of the colonial
> > powers.
>
> Quibble: the worst of Belgian atrocities were not committed by the country
> but by the monarch in his personal domains.
Now that you mention it: Holland never had any colonies either.
Whatever there was abroad was private property,
of the East- and West India Companies,
(VOC resp WIC)
Jan
J. J. Lodder
It's on record that he was arrested on day seven for it,
Jan
Roland Hutchinson
There you go!
Raymond O'Hara
Tell that to the peoples of Borneo,and vicinity.
Steve Hayes
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>I've been trying to create a scenario in the Garden of Eden --
>with a total lack of success.
>
>The combination of Adam and Eve with their normal human natures,
>The Tree in the middle of the Garden, and the stern injunction
>not to eat its fruit was bound to result in illicit fruit-eating
>sooner or later. The talking serpent just speeded things up.
>
>Obviously if both Adam and Eve had been shot dead by an early
>version of Dick Cheney before they could eat the fruit then
>things would have turned out enormously differently, but I see
>that as too big a change in history for our purposes.
See if you can get hold of a short story called "The new reality" by Charles
Harness.