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Fountain pen
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Christian Weisgerber
May 6, 2012, 9:28:50 AM5/6/12
to
Why is a "fountain pen" called that? What's the "fountain" part?
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Athel Cornish-Bowden
May 6, 2012, 11:29:27 AM5/6/12
to
On 2012-05-06 13:28:50 +0000, Christian Weisgerber said:
> Why is a "fountain pen" called that? What's the "fountain" part?
Trying holding it upside down (nib up), with the reservoir exposed and
> Why is a "fountain pen" called that? What's the "fountain" part?
full, then empty it as fast as you can. Then you'll see why it's called
a fountain pen.
(Modern fountain pens fill and empty with a screw action, which is not
designed to be done very fast, but older ones have a bladder that you
can squeeze as fast as you like.)
--
athel
Iain Archer
May 6, 2012, 11:44:21 AM5/6/12
to
Christian Weisgerber wrote on Sun, 6 May 2012
is OED's first example of its use:
"1710 M. Henry Expos. Zech. iv. 2 Without any further Care they [sc.
lamps] received Oil as fast as they wasted it, (as in those which we
call Fountain Inkhorns, or Fountain Pens)."
--
Iain Archer
>Why is a "fountain pen" called that? What's the "fountain" part?
>
I'm not sure how useful the analogy is in explaining the term, but this
>
is OED's first example of its use:
"1710 M. Henry Expos. Zech. iv. 2 Without any further Care they [sc.
lamps] received Oil as fast as they wasted it, (as in those which we
call Fountain Inkhorns, or Fountain Pens)."
--
Iain Archer
Horace LaBadie
May 6, 2012, 11:46:46 AM5/6/12
to
In article <jo5uai$2j9t$2...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
> Why is a "fountain pen" called that? What's the "fountain" part?
Unlike a pen that was dipped in a "well", it contained it's own ink
> Why is a "fountain pen" called that? What's the "fountain" part?
supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
MC
May 6, 2012, 1:03:10 PM5/6/12
to
In article <hwlabadiejr-A5D5...@nntp.aioe.org>,
its
--
"If you can, tell me something happy."
- Marybones
--
"If you can, tell me something happy."
- Marybones
Peter Young
May 6, 2012, 1:11:25 PM5/6/12
to
On 6 May 2012 MC <cope...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
> In article <hwlabadiejr-A5D5...@nntp.aioe.org>,
> Horace LaBadie <hwlab...@nospam.highstream.net> wrote:
>> In article <jo5uai$2j9t$2...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>> na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
>>
>>> Why is a "fountain pen" called that? What's the "fountain" part?
>>
>> Unlike a pen that was dipped in a "well", it contained it's own ink
>> supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
> its
It's correct that it's its.
> In article <hwlabadiejr-A5D5...@nntp.aioe.org>,
> Horace LaBadie <hwlab...@nospam.highstream.net> wrote:
>> In article <jo5uai$2j9t$2...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>> na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
>>
>>> Why is a "fountain pen" called that? What's the "fountain" part?
>>
>> Unlike a pen that was dipped in a "well", it contained it's own ink
>> supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
> its
Peter.
--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk
Stan Brown
May 6, 2012, 1:37:18 PM5/6/12
to
On Sun, 06 May 2012 11:46:46 -0400, Horace LaBadie wrote:
>
> Unlike a pen that was dipped in a "well", it contained it's own ink
"Oh no you ditt-n't!"
>
> Unlike a pen that was dipped in a "well", it contained it's own ink
--
"The difference between the /almost right/ word and the /right/ word
is ... the difference between the lightning-bug and the lightning."
--Mark Twain
Stan Brown, Tompkins County, NY, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com
Jared
May 6, 2012, 2:09:42 PM5/6/12
to
On 5/6/2012 1:37 PM, Stan Brown wrote:
> On Sun, 06 May 2012 11:46:46 -0400, Horace LaBadie wrote:
>>
>> Unlike a pen that was dipped in a "well", it contained it's own ink
>
> "Oh no you ditt-n't!"
>
Don't dip your well in the company ink...
> On Sun, 06 May 2012 11:46:46 -0400, Horace LaBadie wrote:
>>
>> Unlike a pen that was dipped in a "well", it contained it's own ink
>
> "Oh no you ditt-n't!"
>
--
Jared
Peter Brooks
May 6, 2012, 3:36:51 PM5/6/12
to
On May 6, 5:46 pm, Horace LaBadie <hwlabadi...@nospam.highstream.net>
wrote:
first OED meaning of 'fountain'.
In extended schoolboy use, the bladder, being quite strong, can squirt
a jet of ink some considerable distance, at least two metres, I'd say,
from memory - as in the second OED meaning of 'fountain'.
So they should really have been double-fountain pens, though that
would have had the side-effect of unnecessarily drawing small boy's
attention towards the second meaning and its exciting possibilities.
wrote:
> own ink
> supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
>
In normal use, it flowed as from the source of a stream - as in the
> supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
>
first OED meaning of 'fountain'.
In extended schoolboy use, the bladder, being quite strong, can squirt
a jet of ink some considerable distance, at least two metres, I'd say,
from memory - as in the second OED meaning of 'fountain'.
So they should really have been double-fountain pens, though that
would have had the side-effect of unnecessarily drawing small boy's
attention towards the second meaning and its exciting possibilities.
Christian Weisgerber
May 6, 2012, 5:56:03 PM5/6/12
to
Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
> > own ink supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
>
> In normal use, it flowed as from the source of a stream - as in the
> first OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>
> In extended schoolboy use, the bladder, being quite strong, can squirt
> a jet of ink some considerable distance, at least two metres, I'd say,
> from memory - as in the second OED meaning of 'fountain'.
So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
> > own ink supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
>
> In normal use, it flowed as from the source of a stream - as in the
> first OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>
> In extended schoolboy use, the bladder, being quite strong, can squirt
> a jet of ink some considerable distance, at least two metres, I'd say,
> from memory - as in the second OED meaning of 'fountain'.
the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
cartridge "fountain" pens.
Horace LaBadie
May 6, 2012, 7:33:57 PM5/6/12
to
Dr Nick
May 7, 2012, 2:47:03 AM5/7/12
to
word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
In that sense its obscurity is closely related to that of the term(s)
used for typefaces.
--
Online waterways route planner | http://canalplan.eu
Plan trips, see photos, check facilities | http://canalplan.org.uk
Peter Brooks
May 7, 2012, 3:18:32 AM5/7/12
to
On May 7, 8:47 am, Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>
>
> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>
Does anybody still use a fountain pen though? For italics or art
>
>
> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>
effects, I usually see dip pens with tiny reservoir of ink in the nib
itself. Mostly, though, if anybody has to actually write something,
it's usually a biro these days.
Dr Nick
May 7, 2012, 3:33:34 AM5/7/12
to
cartridges but the pens as well.
In fact, they sell disposable fountain pens - something I'd never heard
of.
Peter Brooks
May 7, 2012, 3:52:41 AM5/7/12
to
On May 7, 9:33 am, Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
pens, but that certainly doesn't mean that they weren't there.
the manufacturers, I imagine.
> Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> writes:
> > On May 7, 8:47 am, Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
> >> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
> >> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>
> > Does anybody still use a fountain pen though? For italics or art
> > effects, I usually see dip pens with tiny reservoir of ink in the nib
> > itself. Mostly, though, if anybody has to actually write something,
> > it's usually a biro these days.
>
> Enough do that the big stationers like Rymans not only sell the
> cartridges but the pens as well.
>
I was in a stationer only a few days ago. I didn't notice fountain
> > On May 7, 8:47 am, Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
> >> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
> >> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>
> > Does anybody still use a fountain pen though? For italics or art
> > effects, I usually see dip pens with tiny reservoir of ink in the nib
> > itself. Mostly, though, if anybody has to actually write something,
> > it's usually a biro these days.
>
> Enough do that the big stationers like Rymans not only sell the
> cartridges but the pens as well.
>
pens, but that certainly doesn't mean that they weren't there.
>
> In fact, they sell disposable fountain pens - something I'd never heard
> of.
>
A means of keeping ink from your fingers and profit in the fingers of
> In fact, they sell disposable fountain pens - something I'd never heard
> of.
>
the manufacturers, I imagine.
Nick Spalding
May 7, 2012, 5:39:37 AM5/7/12
to
Peter Brooks wrote, in
<56049a57-7ba9-45b5...@a3g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>
on Mon, 7 May 2012 00:18:32 -0700 (PDT):
The last person I saw using one was the surgeon who removed my gall
bladder in 2003 and a couple of years later repaired a hernia for me. He
was old-fashioned in other ways too, half-moon glasses and suits of a
style twenty years out of date. Henry Osborne, a nice man and a damn
good surgeon, now retired.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
<56049a57-7ba9-45b5...@a3g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>
on Mon, 7 May 2012 00:18:32 -0700 (PDT):
bladder in 2003 and a couple of years later repaired a hernia for me. He
was old-fashioned in other ways too, half-moon glasses and suits of a
style twenty years out of date. Henry Osborne, a nice man and a damn
good surgeon, now retired.
--
Nick Spalding
BrE/IrE
Stan Brown
May 7, 2012, 5:48:37 AM5/7/12
to
Compare "hang up" related to the telephone.
Steve Hayes
May 7, 2012, 6:18:29 AM5/7/12
to
On Mon, 07 May 2012 07:47:03 +0100, Dr Nick
<3-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) writes:
>
>> Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> > own ink supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
>>>
>>> In normal use, it flowed as from the source of a stream - as in the
>>> first OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>>>
>>> In extended schoolboy use, the bladder, being quite strong, can squirt
>>> a jet of ink some considerable distance, at least two metres, I'd say,
>>> from memory - as in the second OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>>
>> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
>> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
>> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
>> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>
>Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
>word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
>the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>
>In that sense its obscurity is closely related to that of the term(s)
>used for typefaces.
In Afrikaans a fountain is called a "bron", meaning "source".
<3-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) writes:
>
>> Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> > own ink supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
>>>
>>> In normal use, it flowed as from the source of a stream - as in the
>>> first OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>>>
>>> In extended schoolboy use, the bladder, being quite strong, can squirt
>>> a jet of ink some considerable distance, at least two metres, I'd say,
>>> from memory - as in the second OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>>
>> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
>> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
>> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
>> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>
>Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
>word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
>the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>
>In that sense its obscurity is closely related to that of the term(s)
>used for typefaces.
A fountain pen is one that carries the source of its ink within it.
--
Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk
Paul Wolff
May 7, 2012, 6:12:50 AM5/7/12
to
In message <ep5fq7t8fqtlim2v2...@4ax.com>, Nick Spalding
<spal...@iol.ie> writes
I use fountain pens when I'm here, at home, at my desk. I don't often
take one on my travels, because they aren't convenient for the sort of
notes I'd be writing - the ink needs a little time to dry - and I'd
worry about damaging them when using them in an awkward position, like
making lecture notes in a lecture theatre designed for people smaller
than me, and especially dropping one on its nib.
Bottled ink is still available in general stationers like W H Smith, but
I often see only one make and colour there, perhaps Parker Quink
blue-black. The best red ink is Pelikan brilliant red.
There's pleasure to be taken in writing with a good fountain pen on good
paper. It even makes writing cheques less painful. Curiously,
cheque-book paper seems always to be smooth and well made.
--
Paul
<spal...@iol.ie> writes
take one on my travels, because they aren't convenient for the sort of
notes I'd be writing - the ink needs a little time to dry - and I'd
worry about damaging them when using them in an awkward position, like
making lecture notes in a lecture theatre designed for people smaller
than me, and especially dropping one on its nib.
Bottled ink is still available in general stationers like W H Smith, but
I often see only one make and colour there, perhaps Parker Quink
blue-black. The best red ink is Pelikan brilliant red.
There's pleasure to be taken in writing with a good fountain pen on good
paper. It even makes writing cheques less painful. Curiously,
cheque-book paper seems always to be smooth and well made.
--
Paul
Iain Archer
May 7, 2012, 7:19:27 AM5/7/12
to
Peter Brooks wrote on Mon, 7 May 2012
A pen (not much more than a stick) with a detachable nib was a standard
instrument for a while at primary school, though going out of use, and
the inkwells increasingly being used for pencil shavings and apple
cores. I always wondered what "relief nib" on each nib meant, but never
felt it was right to ask. Now I know, thanks to the internet.
<quote>
Relief nibs are left-foot oblique (about 15 degrees) stubs.
- 314 "Relief": Flexible medium stub for scial correspondence and
manuscript writing. It evolved into the scarse 1314 Durachrome flexible
stub, and the 2314-F,M,B and 9314-F,M,B (which are not flexible)
</unquote>
--
Iain Archer
instrument for a while at primary school, though going out of use, and
the inkwells increasingly being used for pencil shavings and apple
cores. I always wondered what "relief nib" on each nib meant, but never
felt it was right to ask. Now I know, thanks to the internet.
<quote>
Relief nibs are left-foot oblique (about 15 degrees) stubs.
- 314 "Relief": Flexible medium stub for scial correspondence and
manuscript writing. It evolved into the scarse 1314 Durachrome flexible
stub, and the 2314-F,M,B and 9314-F,M,B (which are not flexible)
</unquote>
--
Iain Archer
tony cooper
May 7, 2012, 7:35:19 AM5/7/12
to
>na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) writes:
>
>> Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> > own ink supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
>>>
>>> In normal use, it flowed as from the source of a stream - as in the
>>> first OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>>>
>>> In extended schoolboy use, the bladder, being quite strong, can squirt
>>> a jet of ink some considerable distance, at least two metres, I'd say,
>>> from memory - as in the second OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>>
>> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
>> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
>> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
>> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>
>Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
>word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
>the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>
>In that sense its obscurity is closely related to that of the term(s)
>used for typefaces.
Put the fountain pen on the dashboard of your car, and even fewer
>
>> Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> > own ink supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
>>>
>>> In normal use, it flowed as from the source of a stream - as in the
>>> first OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>>>
>>> In extended schoolboy use, the bladder, being quite strong, can squirt
>>> a jet of ink some considerable distance, at least two metres, I'd say,
>>> from memory - as in the second OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>>
>> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
>> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
>> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
>> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>
>Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
>word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
>the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>
>In that sense its obscurity is closely related to that of the term(s)
>used for typefaces.
people would be able to give the reason they are called that.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
tony cooper
May 7, 2012, 7:40:33 AM5/7/12
to
peeking out of the pocket is like the Rolex crown. Nothing says
"success" like a $150 pen.
Even our mass-market office supply chains like Office Depot stock and
display fountain pens.
Peter Brooks
May 7, 2012, 8:11:07 AM5/7/12
to
On May 7, 12:12 pm, Paul Wolff <bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ep5fq7t8fqtlim2v2okkt0l73ouik79...@4ax.com>, Nick Spalding
> <spald...@iol.ie> writes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Peter Brooks wrote, in
> ><56049a57-7ba9-45b5-9fcf-485f83be7...@a3g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>
If you're right-handed, perhaps. If you're sinister, as I am, they're
a reminder of ghastly youthful torture.
> In message <ep5fq7t8fqtlim2v2okkt0l73ouik79...@4ax.com>, Nick Spalding
> <spald...@iol.ie> writes
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >Peter Brooks wrote, in
> ><56049a57-7ba9-45b5-9fcf-485f83be7...@a3g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>
a reminder of ghastly youthful torture.
Peter Brooks
May 7, 2012, 8:15:25 AM5/7/12
to
On May 7, 1:40 pm, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 7 May 2012 00:18:32 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>
> On Mon, 7 May 2012 00:18:32 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>
> <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 7, 8:47 am, Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
> >> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
> >> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>
> >Does anybody still use a fountain pen though? For italics or art
> >effects, I usually see dip pens with tiny reservoir of ink in the nib
> >itself. Mostly, though, if anybody has to actually write something,
> >it's usually a biro these days.
>
> The fountain pen is a status symbol to some. A Mt Blanc's white star
> peeking out of the pocket is like the Rolex crown. Nothing says
> "success" like a $150 pen.
>
Where 'success' is spelt 'wally', I can see it. I'm impressed that
> >On May 7, 8:47 am, Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
> >> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
> >> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>
> >Does anybody still use a fountain pen though? For italics or art
> >effects, I usually see dip pens with tiny reservoir of ink in the nib
> >itself. Mostly, though, if anybody has to actually write something,
> >it's usually a biro these days.
>
> The fountain pen is a status symbol to some. A Mt Blanc's white star
> peeking out of the pocket is like the Rolex crown. Nothing says
> "success" like a $150 pen.
>
there are sufficient of them about to make it good business to flog
that sort of stuff - expensive watches the same. I assume that you're
meaning some sort of watch when you say 'Rolex crown' - I remember
'Timex' and 'Rolex' were the names of types of watch. I had one or
other once.
Adam Funk
May 7, 2012, 9:57:19 AM5/7/12
to
with a cartridge or converter (refillable cartridge with a
screw-plunger action). The traditional (acoustic guitar) kind is now
usually called a "lever-fill fountain pen" or just "lever-fill pen".
Anyone know if these are still made? (I have a "vintage" one.)
Doesn't the German term refer to even older technology that involves
plucking fowl?
--
XML is like violence: if it doesn't solve the problem,
use more.
Jerry Friedman
May 7, 2012, 10:35:26 AM5/7/12
to
On May 6, 5:33 pm, Horace LaBadie <hwlabadi...@nospam.highstream.net>
wrote:
> In article <jo6s1j$2u2...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
--
Jerry Friedman
wrote:
> In article <jo6s1j$2u2...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
>
> > Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > own ink supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
>
> > > In normal use, it flowed as from the source of a stream - as in the
> > > first OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>
> > > In extended schoolboy use, the bladder, being quite strong, can squirt
> > > a jet of ink some considerable distance, at least two metres, I'd say,
> > > from memory - as in the second OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>
> > So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
> > the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
> > and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
> > cartridge "fountain" pens.
>
> History s a bitch.
She's nicer if you call her Clio, though.
> > Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > own ink supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
>
> > > In normal use, it flowed as from the source of a stream - as in the
> > > first OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>
> > > In extended schoolboy use, the bladder, being quite strong, can squirt
> > > a jet of ink some considerable distance, at least two metres, I'd say,
> > > from memory - as in the second OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>
> > So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
> > the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
> > and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
> > cartridge "fountain" pens.
>
> History s a bitch.
--
Jerry Friedman
James Hogg
May 7, 2012, 10:37:15 AM5/7/12
to
--
James
Christian Weisgerber
May 7, 2012, 10:44:06 AM5/7/12
to
Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> > ink cartridge "fountain" pens.
>
> Even *those* are extremely rare these days, are they not?
Here in Germany they are still obligatory for a number of years in
> > ink cartridge "fountain" pens.
>
> Even *those* are extremely rare these days, are they not?
school, starting in second grade.
MC
May 7, 2012, 12:33:18 PM5/7/12
to
In article <jo8n3m$i1l$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
writes better than any of the disposables I have on my desk.
na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> > > ink cartridge "fountain" pens.
> >
> > Even *those* are extremely rare these days, are they not?
>
> Here in Germany they are still obligatory for a number of years in
> school, starting in second grade.
This thread prompted me to dust off my German ink cartridge pen... It
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> > > ink cartridge "fountain" pens.
> >
> > Even *those* are extremely rare these days, are they not?
>
> Here in Germany they are still obligatory for a number of years in
> school, starting in second grade.
writes better than any of the disposables I have on my desk.
Steve Hayes
May 7, 2012, 12:46:31 PM5/7/12
to
On Mon, 7 May 2012 05:11:07 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
<peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>On May 7, 12:12 pm, Paul Wolff <bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ep5fq7t8fqtlim2v2okkt0l73ouik79...@4ax.com>, Nick Spalding
>> <spald...@iol.ie> writes
<peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>On May 7, 12:12 pm, Paul Wolff <bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ep5fq7t8fqtlim2v2okkt0l73ouik79...@4ax.com>, Nick Spalding
>> <spald...@iol.ie> writes
>> Bottled ink is still available in general stationers like W H Smith, but
>> I often see only one make and colour there, perhaps Parker Quink
>> blue-black. The best red ink is Pelikan brilliant red.
>>
>> There's pleasure to be taken in writing with a good fountain pen on good
>> paper. It even makes writing cheques less painful. Curiously,
>> cheque-book paper seems always to be smooth and well made.
>>
>If you're right-handed, perhaps. If you're sinister, as I am, they're
>a reminder of ghastly youthful torture.
In my youth I used to keep a diary in hard copy, and sometimes used a
>> I often see only one make and colour there, perhaps Parker Quink
>> blue-black. The best red ink is Pelikan brilliant red.
>>
>> There's pleasure to be taken in writing with a good fountain pen on good
>> paper. It even makes writing cheques less painful. Curiously,
>> cheque-book paper seems always to be smooth and well made.
>>
>If you're right-handed, perhaps. If you're sinister, as I am, they're
>a reminder of ghastly youthful torture.
foundtain pen and sometimes a dip pen. The dip pen was awkward to use while
travelling.
Over the last few years I've transcribed most of it into a computer database,
and found the bits I had written with a dip pen were much easier to read.
BTW I'm left handed.
Adam Funk
May 7, 2012, 1:05:30 PM5/7/12
to
On 2012-05-07, James Hogg wrote:
> Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2012-05-06, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
>>> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
>>> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
>>> cartridge "fountain" pens.
...
> Adam Funk wrote:
>> On 2012-05-06, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
>>> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
>>> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
>>> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>> Doesn't the German term refer to even older technology that involves
>> plucking fowl?
>
> Rather like the word "pen" in fact.
True, but much less obviously than "Feder", which still means the
>> plucking fowl?
>
> Rather like the word "pen" in fact.
bird-covering-item.
Peter Brooks
May 7, 2012, 2:06:19 PM5/7/12
to
On May 7, 6:46 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 7 May 2012 05:11:07 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>
> On Mon, 7 May 2012 05:11:07 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>
> <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >On May 7, 12:12 pm, Paul Wolff <bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
> >> In message <ep5fq7t8fqtlim2v2okkt0l73ouik79...@4ax.com>, Nick Spalding
> >> <spald...@iol.ie> writes
> >> Bottled ink is still available in general stationers like W H Smith, but
> >> I often see only one make and colour there, perhaps Parker Quink
> >> blue-black. The best red ink is Pelikan brilliant red.
>
> >> There's pleasure to be taken in writing with a good fountain pen on good
> >> paper. It even makes writing cheques less painful. Curiously,
> >> cheque-book paper seems always to be smooth and well made.
>
> >If you're right-handed, perhaps. If you're sinister, as I am, they're
> >a reminder of ghastly youthful torture.
>
> In my youth I used to keep a diary in hard copy, and sometimes used a
> foundtain pen and sometimes a dip pen. The dip pen was awkward to use while
> travelling.
>
> Over the last few years I've transcribed most of it into a computer database,
> and found the bits I had written with a dip pen were much easier to read.
>
> BTW I'm left handed.
>
I'm impressed that you managed so well! You must have had a
> >On May 7, 12:12 pm, Paul Wolff <bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
> >> In message <ep5fq7t8fqtlim2v2okkt0l73ouik79...@4ax.com>, Nick Spalding
> >> <spald...@iol.ie> writes
> >> Bottled ink is still available in general stationers like W H Smith, but
> >> I often see only one make and colour there, perhaps Parker Quink
> >> blue-black. The best red ink is Pelikan brilliant red.
>
> >> There's pleasure to be taken in writing with a good fountain pen on good
> >> paper. It even makes writing cheques less painful. Curiously,
> >> cheque-book paper seems always to be smooth and well made.
>
> >If you're right-handed, perhaps. If you're sinister, as I am, they're
> >a reminder of ghastly youthful torture.
>
> In my youth I used to keep a diary in hard copy, and sometimes used a
> foundtain pen and sometimes a dip pen. The dip pen was awkward to use while
> travelling.
>
> Over the last few years I've transcribed most of it into a computer database,
> and found the bits I had written with a dip pen were much easier to read.
>
> BTW I'm left handed.
>
sympathetic writing teacher.
I had the misfortune to have a woman from the old-school. Every
morning when I arrived at school (during my first year) she would
attach the pen or pencil to my right hand with sticky-tape, forcing me
to use only that hand.
It didn't 'cure' my left-handedness, but I think that it did help
considerably with my development of a healthy distrust of authority. I
suspect that it also helped me gain an early insight into injustice -
which was handy too. So I wouldn't curse Miss Arbutnot (I probably did
enough at the time), not only because 'for my curse, she is none the
worse' (to paraphrase the last Decalogue).
David Dyer-Bennet
May 7, 2012, 2:55:16 PM5/7/12
to
century, and were still required (and in fact distributed) in for
example the Swiss schools in 1966.
And can still be bought today, but they're clearly "retro" today.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
David Dyer-Bennet
May 7, 2012, 2:56:49 PM5/7/12
to
if you really mean your statement about these days, then it must cover
other kinds of pens too; liquid ink rollers? Gel pens? What, exactly?
And yes, fountain pens are still used, though I haven't used any of
*mine* lately. But I know half a dozen who do every week.
Glenn Knickerbocker
May 7, 2012, 4:12:16 PM5/7/12
to
On 5/7/2012 3:33 AM, Dr Nick wrote:
> In fact, they sell disposable fountain pens - something I'd never heard
> of.
Wow, I'd forgotten those entirely, with their bendy flat plastic nibs.
> In fact, they sell disposable fountain pens - something I'd never heard
> of.
I must have a couple of those floating around somewhere, because I'm
sure I gave up on them before the pack ran out.
¬R
R H Draney
May 7, 2012, 4:29:47 PM5/7/12
to
David Dyer-Bennet filted:
felt-tipped varieties like Sharpie?...r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
>
>Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> it's usually a biro these days.
>
>What the heck is a "biro", anyway? I know a ballpoint pen is one; but
>if you really mean your statement about these days, then it must cover
>other kinds of pens too; liquid ink rollers? Gel pens? What, exactly?
Never been entirely clear on the boundaries myself...does it include the
>Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> it's usually a biro these days.
>
>What the heck is a "biro", anyway? I know a ballpoint pen is one; but
>if you really mean your statement about these days, then it must cover
>other kinds of pens too; liquid ink rollers? Gel pens? What, exactly?
felt-tipped varieties like Sharpie?...r
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
Mike L
May 7, 2012, 5:08:40 PM5/7/12
to
On Sun, 6 May 2012 21:56:03 +0000 (UTC), na...@mips.inka.de (Christian
Weisgerber) wrote:
>Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > own ink supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
>>
>> In normal use, it flowed as from the source of a stream - as in the
>> first OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>>
>> In extended schoolboy use, the bladder, being quite strong, can squirt
>> a jet of ink some considerable distance, at least two metres, I'd say,
>> from memory - as in the second OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>
>So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
>the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
>and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
>cartridge "fountain" pens.
That's how cultures work, yes. I must say, I never managed to get a
Weisgerber) wrote:
>Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> > own ink supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
>>
>> In normal use, it flowed as from the source of a stream - as in the
>> first OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>>
>> In extended schoolboy use, the bladder, being quite strong, can squirt
>> a jet of ink some considerable distance, at least two metres, I'd say,
>> from memory - as in the second OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>
>So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
>the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
>and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
>cartridge "fountain" pens.
pen to squirt ink like that, although strongly encouraged to by the
examples in comic strips. Note that in some older literature
(including comics), ink was squirted from a "fountain-pen filler",
which was a little rubber bulb with a nozzle attached: these were used
in yet earlier times when fountain-pens, in their descent from the
feathered-dinosaur kind, hadn't yet evolved bladders.
--
Mike.
Adam Funk
May 7, 2012, 5:10:20 PM5/7/12
to
On 2012-05-07, MC wrote:
> In article <jo8n3m$i1l$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
>
>> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>> > > ink cartridge "fountain" pens.
>> >
>> > Even *those* are extremely rare these days, are they not?
>>
>> Here in Germany they are still obligatory for a number of years in
>> school, starting in second grade.
>
> This thread prompted me to dust off my German ink cartridge pen... It
> writes better than any of the disposables I have on my desk.
I have quite a few French cartridge pens (mostly or all Waterman).
> In article <jo8n3m$i1l$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
> na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
>
>> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>
>> > > ink cartridge "fountain" pens.
>> >
>> > Even *those* are extremely rare these days, are they not?
>>
>> Here in Germany they are still obligatory for a number of years in
>> school, starting in second grade.
>
> This thread prompted me to dust off my German ink cartridge pen... It
> writes better than any of the disposables I have on my desk.
The main problem I have is that the nibs get clogged if I don't use
each one often enough.
--
...the reason why so many professional artists drink a lot is not
necessarily very much to do with the artistic temperament, etc. It is
simply that they can afford to, because they can normally take a large
part of a day off to deal with the ravages. [Amis _On Drink_]
Mike L
May 7, 2012, 6:22:33 PM5/7/12
to
On Mon, 07 May 2012 22:10:20 +0100, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:
>On 2012-05-07, MC wrote:
>
>> In article <jo8n3m$i1l$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>> na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
>>
>>> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > ink cartridge "fountain" pens.
>>> >
>>> > Even *those* are extremely rare these days, are they not?
>>>
>>> Here in Germany they are still obligatory for a number of years in
>>> school, starting in second grade.
>>
>> This thread prompted me to dust off my German ink cartridge pen... It
>> writes better than any of the disposables I have on my desk.
>
>
>I have quite a few French cartridge pens (mostly or all Waterman).
>The main problem I have is that the nibs get clogged if I don't use
>each one often enough.
The clogging is why I've finally given up using proper pens, though I
do still feel faintly improper if I think about it. I lost a Mont
Blanc, and various other kinds before it; but I still have my very
first fountain pen - a Conway Stewart with a broken clip and a bent
nib. From a purely practical standpoint, Osmiroids were the best
British pens, because they were cheap and offered a very wide range of
screw-in nib units including calligraphic points in both north- and
south-paw angles and even a special music manuscript one which could
do solid black notes as well as fine dots and lines.
--
Mike.
wrote:
>On 2012-05-07, MC wrote:
>
>> In article <jo8n3m$i1l$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>> na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
>>
>>> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > ink cartridge "fountain" pens.
>>> >
>>> > Even *those* are extremely rare these days, are they not?
>>>
>>> Here in Germany they are still obligatory for a number of years in
>>> school, starting in second grade.
>>
>> This thread prompted me to dust off my German ink cartridge pen... It
>> writes better than any of the disposables I have on my desk.
>
>
>I have quite a few French cartridge pens (mostly or all Waterman).
>The main problem I have is that the nibs get clogged if I don't use
>each one often enough.
do still feel faintly improper if I think about it. I lost a Mont
Blanc, and various other kinds before it; but I still have my very
first fountain pen - a Conway Stewart with a broken clip and a bent
nib. From a purely practical standpoint, Osmiroids were the best
British pens, because they were cheap and offered a very wide range of
screw-in nib units including calligraphic points in both north- and
south-paw angles and even a special music manuscript one which could
do solid black notes as well as fine dots and lines.
--
Mike.
Stan Brown
May 7, 2012, 8:17:26 PM5/7/12
to
On Mon, 7 May 2012 14:44:06 +0000 (UTC), Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> > > ink cartridge "fountain" pens.
> >
> > Even *those* are extremely rare these days, are they not?
>
> Here in Germany they are still obligatory for a number of years in
> school, starting in second grade.
Really?!
>
> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
> > > ink cartridge "fountain" pens.
> >
> > Even *those* are extremely rare these days, are they not?
>
> Here in Germany they are still obligatory for a number of years in
> school, starting in second grade.
In 1976 I had a sterling silver one when I worked at Ernst & Ernst
(as it the was), and my manager enjoyed referring to "the last of the
fountain pend".
Nowadays I have a beautiful gold and malachite one that my brother
made for me. But I'm afraid to carry it around for daily use, lest I
lose or damage it, so it's reserved for thank-you notes and other
important letters.
Robert Bannister
May 7, 2012, 11:28:14 PM5/7/12
to
On 7/05/12 5:56 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> Peter Brooks<peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> own ink supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
>>
>> In normal use, it flowed as from the source of a stream - as in the
>> first OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>>
>> In extended schoolboy use, the bladder, being quite strong, can squirt
>> a jet of ink some considerable distance, at least two metres, I'd say,
>> from memory - as in the second OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>
> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>
No more opaque than the word "pen" (feather) itself.
> Peter Brooks<peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> own ink supply, from which ink flowed as if from a fountain.
>>
>> In normal use, it flowed as from the source of a stream - as in the
>> first OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>>
>> In extended schoolboy use, the bladder, being quite strong, can squirt
>> a jet of ink some considerable distance, at least two metres, I'd say,
>> from memory - as in the second OED meaning of 'fountain'.
>
> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>
--
Robert Bannister
Peter Brooks
May 8, 2012, 1:17:29 AM5/8/12
to
On May 8, 2:17 am, Stan Brown <the_stan_br...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>
>
> Nowadays I have a beautiful gold and malachite one that my brother
> made for me. But I'm afraid to carry it around for daily use, lest I
> lose or damage it, so it's reserved for thank-you notes and other
> important letters.
>
Fortunately, unlike the destruction of steppes involved in buying
>
>
> Nowadays I have a beautiful gold and malachite one that my brother
> made for me. But I'm afraid to carry it around for daily use, lest I
> lose or damage it, so it's reserved for thank-you notes and other
> important letters.
>
cheap Cashmere, or the problem with blood diamonds being likely to be
on sale at your local jeweller, you don't have to worry about the
destruction of sunbirds to make your pen.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malachite_Sunbird
LFS
May 8, 2012, 1:33:04 AM5/8/12
to
(Katy E may remember) but one always aspired to a Parker in those days.
I won a splendid green one in a handwriting competition when I was
twelve and I still have it. It converts conveniently from fountain to
cartridge and is designed so that much of the nib is hidden, very
streamlined. The rubber has long since perished but it is still usable
with a cartridge.
For my twenty-first birthday my father gave me a set of silver coloured
Parker cartridge pen, biro and propelling pencil engraved with my name,
all of which are still in occasional use. But since gel pens became
available I have used little else. Last year my children gave me a
splendid Cross Edge pen which is comfortably fat and has an odd opening
mechanism which is great to fiddle with in meetings.
Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has deteriorated
horribly.
--
Laura
(emulate St. George for email)
Steve Hayes
May 8, 2012, 2:05:09 AM5/8/12
to
On Mon, 7 May 2012 11:06:19 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
<peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>On May 7, 6:46 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 May 2012 05:11:07 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>>
>> <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On May 7, 12:12 pm, Paul Wolff <bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> In message <ep5fq7t8fqtlim2v2okkt0l73ouik79...@4ax.com>, Nick Spalding
>> >> <spald...@iol.ie> writes
>> >> Bottled ink is still available in general stationers like W H Smith, but
>> >> I often see only one make and colour there, perhaps Parker Quink
>> >> blue-black. The best red ink is Pelikan brilliant red.
>>
>> >> There's pleasure to be taken in writing with a good fountain pen on good
>> >> paper. It even makes writing cheques less painful. Curiously,
>> >> cheque-book paper seems always to be smooth and well made.
>>
>> >If you're right-handed, perhaps. If you're sinister, as I am, they're
>> >a reminder of ghastly youthful torture.
>>
>> In my youth I used to keep a diary in hard copy, and sometimes used a
>> foundtain pen and sometimes a dip pen. The dip pen was awkward to use while
>> travelling.
>>
>> Over the last few years I've transcribed most of it into a computer database,
>> and found the bits I had written with a dip pen were much easier to read.
>>
>> BTW I'm left handed.
>>
>I'm impressed that you managed so well! You must have had a
>sympathetic writing teacher.
I doubt that it was any more difficult for me than it is for right-handed
<peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>On May 7, 6:46 pm, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>> On Mon, 7 May 2012 05:11:07 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>>
>> <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >On May 7, 12:12 pm, Paul Wolff <bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> In message <ep5fq7t8fqtlim2v2okkt0l73ouik79...@4ax.com>, Nick Spalding
>> >> <spald...@iol.ie> writes
>> >> Bottled ink is still available in general stationers like W H Smith, but
>> >> I often see only one make and colour there, perhaps Parker Quink
>> >> blue-black. The best red ink is Pelikan brilliant red.
>>
>> >> There's pleasure to be taken in writing with a good fountain pen on good
>> >> paper. It even makes writing cheques less painful. Curiously,
>> >> cheque-book paper seems always to be smooth and well made.
>>
>> >If you're right-handed, perhaps. If you're sinister, as I am, they're
>> >a reminder of ghastly youthful torture.
>>
>> In my youth I used to keep a diary in hard copy, and sometimes used a
>> foundtain pen and sometimes a dip pen. The dip pen was awkward to use while
>> travelling.
>>
>> Over the last few years I've transcribed most of it into a computer database,
>> and found the bits I had written with a dip pen were much easier to read.
>>
>> BTW I'm left handed.
>>
>I'm impressed that you managed so well! You must have had a
>sympathetic writing teacher.
people to write Hebrew or Arabic.
I have, on various occasions, tried writing from right-to-left (mirror-image
writing), but found I could only do it if I used "joined-up" writing, rather
than the disjunctive style in which I normally write.
>
>I had the misfortune to have a woman from the old-school. Every
>morning when I arrived at school (during my first year) she would
>attach the pen or pencil to my right hand with sticky-tape, forcing me
>to use only that hand.
I never had that.
>I had the misfortune to have a woman from the old-school. Every
>morning when I arrived at school (during my first year) she would
>attach the pen or pencil to my right hand with sticky-tape, forcing me
>to use only that hand.
>It didn't 'cure' my left-handedness, but I think that it did help
>considerably with my development of a healthy distrust of authority. I
>suspect that it also helped me gain an early insight into injustice -
>which was handy too. So I wouldn't curse Miss Arbutnot (I probably did
>enough at the time), not only because 'for my curse, she is none the
>worse' (to paraphrase the last Decalogue).
call it) who had a similar effect on me. She was extremely authoritarian, and
at one point the whole school went out on strike. That was in the 1950s when
schoolkids striking was rare, it only became widespread in the 1970s.
Steve Hayes
May 8, 2012, 2:07:01 AM5/8/12
to
On Mon, 07 May 2012 13:56:49 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On May 7, 8:47 am, Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
>>> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
>>> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>>>
>> Does anybody still use a fountain pen though? For italics or art
>> effects, I usually see dip pens with tiny reservoir of ink in the nib
>> itself. Mostly, though, if anybody has to actually write something,
>> it's usually a biro these days.
>
>What the heck is a "biro", anyway? I know a ballpoint pen is one; but
>if you really mean your statement about these days, then it must cover
>other kinds of pens too; liquid ink rollers? Gel pens? What, exactly?
A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
>Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On May 7, 8:47 am, Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
>>> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
>>> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>>>
>> Does anybody still use a fountain pen though? For italics or art
>> effects, I usually see dip pens with tiny reservoir of ink in the nib
>> itself. Mostly, though, if anybody has to actually write something,
>> it's usually a biro these days.
>
>What the heck is a "biro", anyway? I know a ballpoint pen is one; but
>if you really mean your statement about these days, then it must cover
>other kinds of pens too; liquid ink rollers? Gel pens? What, exactly?
Bob Martin
May 8, 2012, 1:38:00 AM5/8/12
to
in 1862969 20120507 221020 Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>On 2012-05-07, MC wrote:
>
>> In article <jo8n3m$i1l$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>> na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
>>
>>> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > ink cartridge "fountain" pens.
>>> >
>>> > Even *those* are extremely rare these days, are they not?
>>>
>>> Here in Germany they are still obligatory for a number of years in
>>> school, starting in second grade.
>>
>> This thread prompted me to dust off my German ink cartridge pen... It
>> writes better than any of the disposables I have on my desk.
>
>
>I have quite a few French cartridge pens (mostly or all Waterman).
>The main problem I have is that the nibs get clogged if I don't use
>each one often enough.
I use my 35-year-old Sheaffer every day. I can't stand ball-points.
>On 2012-05-07, MC wrote:
>
>> In article <jo8n3m$i1l$1...@lorvorc.mips.inka.de>,
>> na...@mips.inka.de (Christian Weisgerber) wrote:
>>
>>> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > ink cartridge "fountain" pens.
>>> >
>>> > Even *those* are extremely rare these days, are they not?
>>>
>>> Here in Germany they are still obligatory for a number of years in
>>> school, starting in second grade.
>>
>> This thread prompted me to dust off my German ink cartridge pen... It
>> writes better than any of the disposables I have on my desk.
>
>
>I have quite a few French cartridge pens (mostly or all Waterman).
>The main problem I have is that the nibs get clogged if I don't use
>each one often enough.
Peter Brooks
May 8, 2012, 3:01:59 AM5/8/12
to
On May 8, 8:05 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
> On Mon, 7 May 2012 11:06:19 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, 7 May 2012 11:06:19 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
technique used by right-handed people, whether they're writing from
top-to-bottom, right-to-left or left-to-right.
In my experience, left-handers either have completely illegible
writing, or extremely neat writing, hardly ever anything in between.
>
> I have, on various occasions, tried writing from right-to-left (mirror-image
> writing), but found I could only do it if I used "joined-up" writing, rather
> than the disjunctive style in which I normally write.
>
I've tried it too, but I don't recall that difference - I should try
> I have, on various occasions, tried writing from right-to-left (mirror-image
> writing), but found I could only do it if I used "joined-up" writing, rather
> than the disjunctive style in which I normally write.
>
it again, just to see.
Mike Barnes
May 8, 2012, 3:41:34 AM5/8/12
to
Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com>:
I've been given Parker, Cross, and Mont Blanc pens, but I always go back
to a Lamy. Usability seems to be inversely proportional to price.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
>On May 7, 8:47 am, Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>>
>> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
>> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
>> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>>
>Does anybody still use a fountain pen though?
Yes. A fountain pen is my everyday writing implement.
>>
>>
>> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
>> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
>> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>>
>Does anybody still use a fountain pen though?
I've been given Parker, Cross, and Mont Blanc pens, but I always go back
to a Lamy. Usability seems to be inversely proportional to price.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Peter Brooks
May 8, 2012, 3:58:59 AM5/8/12
to
On May 8, 8:07 am, Steve Hayes <hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
" [OED]
Biro
(ˈbaɪərəʊ)
[f. the name of László Biró, the Hungarian inventor.]
The proprietary name of a particular make of ball-point pen; also
(with lower-case initial) applied loosely to any ball-point pen. Hence
ˈbiro v. trans., to write (something) with a biro; ˈbiroed ppl. a.,
written with a biro.
1947 Trade Marks Jrnl. 29 Oct. 660/2 (heading) Biro. Writing
instruments and parts thereof, not included in other classes. 1948
‘G. Orwell’ Let. 2 Jan. in Coll. Ess. (1968) IV. 393 Thanks ever so
for sending the pen.‥ It'll do just as well as a Biro. 1952 J.
Cannan Body in Beck ii. 39 Price jumped and dropped his Biro pen.
1958 Oxf. Univ. Gaz. 1 Dec. 299/1 A table 7 ft. 6 in. long, and
biro pens were installed. 1962 L. Deighton Ipcress File i. 12 The
biro'd message, ‘Inquiries third floor‥’. 1962 Observer 4 Mar. 13/2
Most White Papers, editorials and poems are now not penned, but
biro'ed. 1967 M. Drabble Jerusalem the Golden vii. 169 Even the
sight of a broken biro on his windowsill was of interest to her.
"
> On Mon, 07 May 2012 13:56:49 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> wrote:
> >Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> On May 7, 8:47 am, Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >>> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
> >>> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
> >>> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>
> >> Does anybody still use a fountain pen though? For italics or art
> >> effects, I usually see dip pens with tiny reservoir of ink in the nib
> >> itself. Mostly, though, if anybody has to actually write something,
> >> it's usually a biro these days.
>
> >What the heck is a "biro", anyway? I know a ballpoint pen is one; but
> >if you really mean your statement about these days, then it must cover
> >other kinds of pens too; liquid ink rollers? Gel pens? What, exactly?
>
> A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
>
Indeed:
> >Peter Brooks <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> writes:
>
> >> On May 7, 8:47 am, Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>
> >>> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
> >>> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
> >>> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>
> >> Does anybody still use a fountain pen though? For italics or art
> >> effects, I usually see dip pens with tiny reservoir of ink in the nib
> >> itself. Mostly, though, if anybody has to actually write something,
> >> it's usually a biro these days.
>
> >What the heck is a "biro", anyway? I know a ballpoint pen is one; but
> >if you really mean your statement about these days, then it must cover
> >other kinds of pens too; liquid ink rollers? Gel pens? What, exactly?
>
> A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
>
" [OED]
Biro
(ˈbaɪərəʊ)
[f. the name of László Biró, the Hungarian inventor.]
The proprietary name of a particular make of ball-point pen; also
(with lower-case initial) applied loosely to any ball-point pen. Hence
ˈbiro v. trans., to write (something) with a biro; ˈbiroed ppl. a.,
written with a biro.
1947 Trade Marks Jrnl. 29 Oct. 660/2 (heading) Biro. Writing
instruments and parts thereof, not included in other classes. 1948
‘G. Orwell’ Let. 2 Jan. in Coll. Ess. (1968) IV. 393 Thanks ever so
for sending the pen.‥ It'll do just as well as a Biro. 1952 J.
Cannan Body in Beck ii. 39 Price jumped and dropped his Biro pen.
1958 Oxf. Univ. Gaz. 1 Dec. 299/1 A table 7 ft. 6 in. long, and
biro pens were installed. 1962 L. Deighton Ipcress File i. 12 The
biro'd message, ‘Inquiries third floor‥’. 1962 Observer 4 Mar. 13/2
Most White Papers, editorials and poems are now not penned, but
biro'ed. 1967 M. Drabble Jerusalem the Golden vii. 169 Even the
sight of a broken biro on his windowsill was of interest to her.
"
Adam Funk
May 8, 2012, 4:51:12 AM5/8/12
to
On 2012-05-07, Mike L wrote:
> That's how cultures work, yes. I must say, I never managed to get a
> pen to squirt ink like that, although strongly encouraged to by the
> examples in comic strips. Note that in some older literature
> (including comics), ink was squirted from a "fountain-pen filler",
> which was a little rubber bulb with a nozzle attached: these were used
> in yet earlier times when fountain-pens, in their descent from the
> feathered-dinosaur kind, hadn't yet evolved bladders.
"THERE IS NO P IN OUR FOUNTAIN EN"
> That's how cultures work, yes. I must say, I never managed to get a
> pen to squirt ink like that, although strongly encouraged to by the
> examples in comic strips. Note that in some older literature
> (including comics), ink was squirted from a "fountain-pen filler",
> which was a little rubber bulb with a nozzle attached: these were used
> in yet earlier times when fountain-pens, in their descent from the
> feathered-dinosaur kind, hadn't yet evolved bladders.
--
Physics is like sex. Sure, it may give some practical results,
but that's not why we do it. [Richard Feynman]
Adam Funk
May 8, 2012, 4:51:52 AM5/8/12
to
On 2012-05-08, LFS wrote:
> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has deteriorated
> horribly.
Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has failed to
> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has deteriorated
> horribly.
improve.
--
Nam Sibbyllam quidem Cumis ego ipse oculis meis vidi in ampulla
pendere, et cum illi pueri dicerent: beable beable beable; respondebat
illa: doidy doidy doidy. [plorkwort]
Adam Funk
May 8, 2012, 4:49:57 AM5/8/12
to
live word in a non-stationery sense.
Adam Funk
May 8, 2012, 4:53:58 AM5/8/12
to
clogged, even though I don't use it very often now. The reason for
that is that the cap fitting has become loose from wear so I keep it
on my desk at home (too risky to carry around).
--
English has perfect phonetic spelling. It just doesn't have phonetic
pronunciation. [Peter Moylan]
Peter Brooks
May 8, 2012, 5:06:51 AM5/8/12
to
On May 8, 10:53 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2012-05-08, Bob Martin wrote:
>
> > in 1862969 20120507 221020 Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> >>I have quite a few French cartridge pens (mostly or all Waterman).
> >>The main problem I have is that the nibs get clogged if I don't use
> >>each one often enough.
>
> > I use my 35-year-old Sheaffer every day. I can't stand ball-points.
>
> The strange thing is that one of the oldest ones I have has *never*
> clogged, even though I don't use it very often now. The reason for
> that is that the cap fitting has become loose from wear so I keep it
> on my desk at home (too risky to carry around).
>
If the cap doesn't fit...
> On 2012-05-08, Bob Martin wrote:
>
> > in 1862969 20120507 221020 Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> >>I have quite a few French cartridge pens (mostly or all Waterman).
> >>The main problem I have is that the nibs get clogged if I don't use
> >>each one often enough.
>
> > I use my 35-year-old Sheaffer every day. I can't stand ball-points.
>
> The strange thing is that one of the oldest ones I have has *never*
> clogged, even though I don't use it very often now. The reason for
> that is that the cap fitting has become loose from wear so I keep it
> on my desk at home (too risky to carry around).
>
Peter Brooks
May 8, 2012, 5:06:15 AM5/8/12
to
On May 8, 10:49 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2012-05-08, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
> > On 7/05/12 5:56 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> >> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
> >> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
> >> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
> >> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>
> > No more opaque than the word "pen" (feather) itself.
>
> The difference is that "fountain" (like German "Feder") is still a
> live word in a non-stationery sense.
>
Apart from frozen ones - I saw a lovely example of one on the Sani
> On 2012-05-08, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
> > On 7/05/12 5:56 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> >> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
> >> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
> >> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
> >> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>
> > No more opaque than the word "pen" (feather) itself.
>
> The difference is that "fountain" (like German "Feder") is still a
> live word in a non-stationery sense.
>
Pass many years ago.
Katy Jennison
May 8, 2012, 5:40:40 AM5/8/12
to
On 07/05/2012 22:08, Mike L wrote:
> Note that in some older literature
> (including comics), ink was squirted from a "fountain-pen filler",
> which was a little rubber bulb with a nozzle attached: these were used
> in yet earlier times when fountain-pens, in their descent from the
> feathered-dinosaur kind, hadn't yet evolved bladders.
Oh dear, now I'm trying to remember who fed what with a fountain-pen
> Note that in some older literature
> (including comics), ink was squirted from a "fountain-pen filler",
> which was a little rubber bulb with a nozzle attached: these were used
> in yet earlier times when fountain-pens, in their descent from the
> feathered-dinosaur kind, hadn't yet evolved bladders.
filler, in what children's book. Was it the kitten in We Didn't Mean To
Go To Sea? If so, what were they doing with a fountain-pen filler on a
boat? Ah, of course, writing the Ship's Log, naturally.
--
Katy Jennison
MC
May 8, 2012, 7:14:26 AM5/8/12
to
In article <a0rta9...@mid.individual.net>,
I was given a Sheaffer in my teens and I still have it. It always looked
better than it wrote. I just took a look at it and for the first time
noticed (to my surprise) that the nib is engraved "SheafferS Australia."
The company is now owned by Bic, apparently.
The one I use is a Mont Blanc - slender silver barrel. When I bought it
I actually didn't want to get a Mont Blanc - it was so much a part of
the yuppie Wall Street uniform, but when I tried out three or four other
brands none suited my handwriting as well as this.
--
"If you can, tell me something happy."
- Marybones
better than it wrote. I just took a look at it and for the first time
noticed (to my surprise) that the nib is engraved "SheafferS Australia."
The company is now owned by Bic, apparently.
The one I use is a Mont Blanc - slender silver barrel. When I bought it
I actually didn't want to get a Mont Blanc - it was so much a part of
the yuppie Wall Street uniform, but when I tried out three or four other
brands none suited my handwriting as well as this.
--
"If you can, tell me something happy."
- Marybones
Adam Funk
May 8, 2012, 7:59:17 AM5/8/12
to
--
"Gonzo, is that the contract from the devil?"
"No, Kermit, it's worse than that. This is the bill from special
effects."
Adam Funk
May 8, 2012, 7:58:52 AM5/8/12
to
On 2012-05-07, Mike L wrote:
> That's how cultures work, yes. I must say, I never managed to get a
> pen to squirt ink like that, although strongly encouraged to by the
> examples in comic strips. Note that in some older literature
> (including comics), ink was squirted from a "fountain-pen filler",
> which was a little rubber bulb with a nozzle attached: these were used
> in yet earlier times when fountain-pens, in their descent from the
> feathered-dinosaur kind, hadn't yet evolved bladders.
Apparently dinosaurs farted a lot too.
> pen to squirt ink like that, although strongly encouraged to by the
> examples in comic strips. Note that in some older literature
> (including comics), ink was squirted from a "fountain-pen filler",
> which was a little rubber bulb with a nozzle attached: these were used
> in yet earlier times when fountain-pens, in their descent from the
> feathered-dinosaur kind, hadn't yet evolved bladders.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/05/07/dinosaur_flatulence_warmed_earth/
(This seems to refer only to sauropods, however, whereas pens evolved
from theropods.)
--
I worry that 10 or 15 years from now, [my daughter] will come to me
and say 'Daddy, where were you when they took freedom of the press
away from the Internet?' [Mike Godwin]
http://www.eff.org/
Peter Brooks
May 8, 2012, 8:20:52 AM5/8/12
to
On May 8, 1:59 pm, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> On 2012-05-08, Peter Brooks wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 8, 10:49 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> >> On 2012-05-08, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
> >> > On 7/05/12 5:56 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> >> >> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
> >> >> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
> >> >> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
> >> >> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>
> >> > No more opaque than the word "pen" (feather) itself.
>
> >> The difference is that "fountain" (like German "Feder") is still a
> >> live word in a non-stationery sense.
>
> > Apart from frozen ones - I saw a lovely example of one on the Sani
> > Pass many years ago.
>
> Even if it's frozen, it was non-stationery. :-)
>
True - it works better spoken..
> On 2012-05-08, Peter Brooks wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On May 8, 10:49 am, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> >> On 2012-05-08, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
> >> > On 7/05/12 5:56 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> >> >> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
> >> >> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
> >> >> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
> >> >> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>
> >> > No more opaque than the word "pen" (feather) itself.
>
> >> The difference is that "fountain" (like German "Feder") is still a
> >> live word in a non-stationery sense.
>
> > Apart from frozen ones - I saw a lovely example of one on the Sani
> > Pass many years ago.
>
> Even if it's frozen, it was non-stationery. :-)
>
David Dyer-Bennet
May 8, 2012, 11:31:24 AM5/8/12
to
Steve Hayes <haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:
> On Mon, 07 May 2012 13:56:49 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>
>>Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On May 7, 8:47 am, Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
>>>> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
>>>> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>>>>
>>> Does anybody still use a fountain pen though? For italics or art
>>> effects, I usually see dip pens with tiny reservoir of ink in the nib
>>> itself. Mostly, though, if anybody has to actually write something,
>>> it's usually a biro these days.
>>
>>What the heck is a "biro", anyway? I know a ballpoint pen is one; but
>>if you really mean your statement about these days, then it must cover
>>other kinds of pens too; liquid ink rollers? Gel pens? What, exactly?
>
> A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
Meaning it's a brand-name that has become a generic term?
> On Mon, 07 May 2012 13:56:49 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>
>>Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> On May 7, 8:47 am, Dr Nick <3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
>>>> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
>>>> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>>>>
>>> Does anybody still use a fountain pen though? For italics or art
>>> effects, I usually see dip pens with tiny reservoir of ink in the nib
>>> itself. Mostly, though, if anybody has to actually write something,
>>> it's usually a biro these days.
>>
>>What the heck is a "biro", anyway? I know a ballpoint pen is one; but
>>if you really mean your statement about these days, then it must cover
>>other kinds of pens too; liquid ink rollers? Gel pens? What, exactly?
>
> A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
That still doesn't quite address my question; does "biro" now also cover
a Uni-Ball Vision Elite (rolling-ball liquid ink pen)? How about a
Staples Sonix Gel (rolling-ball gel ink pen)? I've never heard anybody
call these "ballpoint pens", so my old knowledge that "a biro is a
ballpoint" hasn't caught up with the new, more complicated, landscape.
Also, what about a Pilot 11007 Razor Stick Porous Pen, or a Paper Mate
Flair?
-
David Dyer-Bennet, dd...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
David Dyer-Bennet
May 8, 2012, 11:35:22 AM5/8/12
to
Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
> On 2012-05-08, LFS wrote:
>
>> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has deteriorated
>> horribly.
>
> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has failed to
> improve.
Likewise. Oh my.
> On 2012-05-08, LFS wrote:
>
>> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has deteriorated
>> horribly.
>
> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has failed to
> improve.
It's so rare that I do handwriting for *anybody else* these days. I
started typing my letters back around 1970 when I got an electric
typewriter, more recently it's all email or maybe texts on a phone.
--
MC
May 8, 2012, 11:39:15 AM5/8/12
to
In article <ylfktxzq...@dd-b.net>,
David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
> > A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
>
> Meaning it's a brand-name that has become a generic term?
>
> That still doesn't quite address my question; does "biro" now also cover
> a Uni-Ball Vision Elite (rolling-ball liquid ink pen)? How about a
> Staples Sonix Gel (rolling-ball gel ink pen)? I've never heard anybody
> call these "ballpoint pens", so my old knowledge that "a biro is a
> ballpoint" hasn't caught up with the new, more complicated, landscape.
I don't think it does apply to those pens... But I could be wrong.
> > A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
>
> Meaning it's a brand-name that has become a generic term?
>
> That still doesn't quite address my question; does "biro" now also cover
> a Uni-Ball Vision Elite (rolling-ball liquid ink pen)? How about a
> Staples Sonix Gel (rolling-ball gel ink pen)? I've never heard anybody
> call these "ballpoint pens", so my old knowledge that "a biro is a
> ballpoint" hasn't caught up with the new, more complicated, landscape.
Peter Brooks
May 8, 2012, 12:14:53 PM5/8/12
to
On May 8, 5:39 pm, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
> In article <ylfktxzq1ygj....@dd-b.net>,
pencil, a nibbed pen, or a fibre-point pen, but certainly to any other
balled pen.
> In article <ylfktxzq1ygj....@dd-b.net>,
> David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>
> > > A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
>
> > Meaning it's a brand-name that has become a generic term?
>
> > That still doesn't quite address my question; does "biro" now also cover
> > a Uni-Ball Vision Elite (rolling-ball liquid ink pen)? How about a
> > Staples Sonix Gel (rolling-ball gel ink pen)? I've never heard anybody
> > call these "ballpoint pens", so my old knowledge that "a biro is a
> > ballpoint" hasn't caught up with the new, more complicated, landscape.
>
> I don't think it does apply to those pens... But I could be wrong.
>
I'd apply it to anything with some sort of ball point - not to a
>
> > > A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
>
> > Meaning it's a brand-name that has become a generic term?
>
> > That still doesn't quite address my question; does "biro" now also cover
> > a Uni-Ball Vision Elite (rolling-ball liquid ink pen)? How about a
> > Staples Sonix Gel (rolling-ball gel ink pen)? I've never heard anybody
> > call these "ballpoint pens", so my old knowledge that "a biro is a
> > ballpoint" hasn't caught up with the new, more complicated, landscape.
>
> I don't think it does apply to those pens... But I could be wrong.
>
pencil, a nibbed pen, or a fibre-point pen, but certainly to any other
balled pen.
David Dyer-Bennet
May 8, 2012, 2:03:29 PM5/8/12
to
similarities between feel, use, etc. of the different kind of balled
pens. (Not that language is reliably "reasonable".)
Anybody think this is wrong?
(Not "Speedball" pens, though!)
--
Snidely
May 8, 2012, 2:23:00 PM5/8/12
to
David Dyer-Bennet scribbled something on Tuesday the 5/8/2012:
confluence of the Willamette and Columbia), and Osmiroids were very
common. So were Rapidiographs, which I couldn't afford back then.
Just to be different, I learned my calligraphy off-campus.
I think if you compare my lecture notes from freshman and sophomore
classes with my current lecture notes (from some technical classes I'm
taking for "refresh" reasons), you'll see an improvement, but the
clarity has definitely fallen off since the days when I paid for my
pens by doing posters (I may even have paid for the paper that way).
(I need (I think) to have -- more -- nesting of clauses (the
parenthical ones (of course) in my posts (not (!!!) to be confused with
posters)).)
/dps "{[]}"
--
Who, me? And what lacuna?
> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
>
>> On 2012-05-08, LFS wrote:
>>
>>> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has deteriorated
>>> horribly.
>>
>> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has failed to
>> improve.
>
> Likewise. Oh my.
>
> It's so rare that I do handwriting for *anybody else* these days. I
> started typing my letters back around 1970 when I got an electric
> typewriter, more recently it's all email or maybe texts on a phone.
I went to a college with a big calligraphy colony (early '70s, near the
>
>> On 2012-05-08, LFS wrote:
>>
>>> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has deteriorated
>>> horribly.
>>
>> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has failed to
>> improve.
>
> Likewise. Oh my.
>
> It's so rare that I do handwriting for *anybody else* these days. I
> started typing my letters back around 1970 when I got an electric
> typewriter, more recently it's all email or maybe texts on a phone.
confluence of the Willamette and Columbia), and Osmiroids were very
common. So were Rapidiographs, which I couldn't afford back then.
Just to be different, I learned my calligraphy off-campus.
I think if you compare my lecture notes from freshman and sophomore
classes with my current lecture notes (from some technical classes I'm
taking for "refresh" reasons), you'll see an improvement, but the
clarity has definitely fallen off since the days when I paid for my
pens by doing posters (I may even have paid for the paper that way).
(I need (I think) to have -- more -- nesting of clauses (the
parenthical ones (of course) in my posts (not (!!!) to be confused with
posters)).)
/dps "{[]}"
--
Who, me? And what lacuna?
Mike L
May 8, 2012, 3:03:31 PM5/8/12
to
On Tue, 08 May 2012 13:03:29 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
wrote:
>Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On May 8, 5:39 pm, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>>> In article <ylfktxzq1ygj....@dd-b.net>,
>>> David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
>>>
>>> > Meaning it's a brand-name that has become a generic term?
>>>
>>> > That still doesn't quite address my question; does "biro" now also cover
>>> > a Uni-Ball Vision Elite (rolling-ball liquid ink pen)? How about a
>>> > Staples Sonix Gel (rolling-ball gel ink pen)? I've never heard anybody
>>> > call these "ballpoint pens", so my old knowledge that "a biro is a
>>> > ballpoint" hasn't caught up with the new, more complicated, landscape.
>>>
>>> I don't think it does apply to those pens... But I could be wrong.
>>>
>> I'd apply it to anything with some sort of ball point - not to a
>> pencil, a nibbed pen, or a fibre-point pen, but certainly to any other
>> balled pen.
>
>That's certainly a "reasonable" place to draw the line, I see definite
>similarities between feel, use, etc. of the different kind of balled
>pens. (Not that language is reliably "reasonable".)
>
>Anybody think this is wrong?
>
>(Not "Speedball" pens, though!)
I never use "Biro" or "Bic" as a generic term for ballpoints, which
leaves me in difficulty if I want to mention those other pens with
balls, but without the indestructible Bic-type ink. I have to resort
to such expressions as "...you know, those Japanese green ones,
Oklahama or Walkman or something."
One of my schoolmasters pointed out that a ballpoint wasn't a "pen" at
all, but an "ink pencil". It was some years until I discovered that
actually, if we were going to play that game, then a "pencil" was in
fact a kind of paintbrush. An even earlier schoolmaster threw us
briefly by using "pen" only for the kind one dipped, in our lingo a
"dip pen". I've got a neat little box of nibs here, labelled "R.
Esterbrook & Co, PENS." Apparently Mr Esterbrook, his picture on the
box dated 1858 though the box must have been from about 1958, reckoned
that only the business end was the "pen"; which is consistent with the
stick bit always being called the "pen-holder".
--
Mike.
wrote:
>Peter Brooks <peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On May 8, 5:39 pm, MC <copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>>> In article <ylfktxzq1ygj....@dd-b.net>,
>>> David Dyer-Bennet <d...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>>>
>>> > > A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
>>>
>>> > Meaning it's a brand-name that has become a generic term?
>>>
>>> > That still doesn't quite address my question; does "biro" now also cover
>>> > a Uni-Ball Vision Elite (rolling-ball liquid ink pen)? How about a
>>> > Staples Sonix Gel (rolling-ball gel ink pen)? I've never heard anybody
>>> > call these "ballpoint pens", so my old knowledge that "a biro is a
>>> > ballpoint" hasn't caught up with the new, more complicated, landscape.
>>>
>>> I don't think it does apply to those pens... But I could be wrong.
>>>
>> I'd apply it to anything with some sort of ball point - not to a
>> pencil, a nibbed pen, or a fibre-point pen, but certainly to any other
>> balled pen.
>
>That's certainly a "reasonable" place to draw the line, I see definite
>similarities between feel, use, etc. of the different kind of balled
>pens. (Not that language is reliably "reasonable".)
>
>Anybody think this is wrong?
>
>(Not "Speedball" pens, though!)
leaves me in difficulty if I want to mention those other pens with
balls, but without the indestructible Bic-type ink. I have to resort
to such expressions as "...you know, those Japanese green ones,
Oklahama or Walkman or something."
One of my schoolmasters pointed out that a ballpoint wasn't a "pen" at
all, but an "ink pencil". It was some years until I discovered that
actually, if we were going to play that game, then a "pencil" was in
fact a kind of paintbrush. An even earlier schoolmaster threw us
briefly by using "pen" only for the kind one dipped, in our lingo a
"dip pen". I've got a neat little box of nibs here, labelled "R.
Esterbrook & Co, PENS." Apparently Mr Esterbrook, his picture on the
box dated 1858 though the box must have been from about 1958, reckoned
that only the business end was the "pen"; which is consistent with the
stick bit always being called the "pen-holder".
--
Mike.
Katy Jennison
May 8, 2012, 3:10:45 PM5/8/12
to
On 08/05/2012 19:03, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> Peter Brooks<peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On May 8, 5:39 pm, MC<copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>>> In article<ylfktxzq1ygj....@dd-b.net>,
>>> David Dyer-Bennet<d...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
>>>
>>>> Meaning it's a brand-name that has become a generic term?
>>>
>>>> That still doesn't quite address my question; does "biro" now also cover
>>>> a Uni-Ball Vision Elite (rolling-ball liquid ink pen)? How about a
>>>> Staples Sonix Gel (rolling-ball gel ink pen)? I've never heard anybody
>>>> call these "ballpoint pens", so my old knowledge that "a biro is a
>>>> ballpoint" hasn't caught up with the new, more complicated, landscape.
>>>
>>> I don't think it does apply to those pens... But I could be wrong.
>>>
>> I'd apply it to anything with some sort of ball point - not to a
>> pencil, a nibbed pen, or a fibre-point pen, but certainly to any other
>> balled pen.
>
> That's certainly a "reasonable" place to draw the line, I see definite
> similarities between feel, use, etc. of the different kind of balled
> pens. (Not that language is reliably "reasonable".)
>
> Anybody think this is wrong?
Uh, I don't use either "biro" or "ball-point" to cover roller-ball pens.
> Peter Brooks<peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> On May 8, 5:39 pm, MC<copes...@mapca.inter.net> wrote:
>>> In article<ylfktxzq1ygj....@dd-b.net>,
>>> David Dyer-Bennet<d...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
>>>
>>>> Meaning it's a brand-name that has become a generic term?
>>>
>>>> That still doesn't quite address my question; does "biro" now also cover
>>>> a Uni-Ball Vision Elite (rolling-ball liquid ink pen)? How about a
>>>> Staples Sonix Gel (rolling-ball gel ink pen)? I've never heard anybody
>>>> call these "ballpoint pens", so my old knowledge that "a biro is a
>>>> ballpoint" hasn't caught up with the new, more complicated, landscape.
>>>
>>> I don't think it does apply to those pens... But I could be wrong.
>>>
>> I'd apply it to anything with some sort of ball point - not to a
>> pencil, a nibbed pen, or a fibre-point pen, but certainly to any other
>> balled pen.
>
> That's certainly a "reasonable" place to draw the line, I see definite
> similarities between feel, use, etc. of the different kind of balled
> pens. (Not that language is reliably "reasonable".)
>
> Anybody think this is wrong?
If I said "pass me a biro, would you" I'd be disconcerted if I was
handed a roller-ball pen, and I'd probably say "No, not one of those - I
mean a biro!"
--
Katy Jennison
Jerry Friedman
May 8, 2012, 3:13:28 PM5/8/12
to
On May 8, 1:03 pm, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
...
> One of my schoolmasters pointed out that a ballpoint wasn't a "pen" at
> all, but an "ink pencil". It was some years until I discovered that
> actually, if we were going to play that game, then a "pencil" was in
> fact a kind of paintbrush.
As I'm afraid I've said here before, some people in northern N. M.
call a mechanical/propelling pencil a "lead pen".
> An even earlier schoolmaster threw us
> briefly by using "pen" only for the kind one dipped, in our lingo a
> "dip pen".
What did he use for the other ones? And were these teachers more
rational on other subjects?
> I've got a neat little box of nibs here, labelled "R.
> Esterbrook & Co, PENS." Apparently Mr Esterbrook, his picture on the
> box dated 1858 though the box must have been from about 1958, reckoned
> that only the business end was the "pen"; which is consistent with the
> stick bit always being called the "pen-holder".
I suppose all of a quill would have counted as a pen, though.
--
Jerry Friedman
...
> One of my schoolmasters pointed out that a ballpoint wasn't a "pen" at
> all, but an "ink pencil". It was some years until I discovered that
> actually, if we were going to play that game, then a "pencil" was in
> fact a kind of paintbrush.
call a mechanical/propelling pencil a "lead pen".
> An even earlier schoolmaster threw us
> briefly by using "pen" only for the kind one dipped, in our lingo a
> "dip pen".
rational on other subjects?
> I've got a neat little box of nibs here, labelled "R.
> Esterbrook & Co, PENS." Apparently Mr Esterbrook, his picture on the
> box dated 1858 though the box must have been from about 1958, reckoned
> that only the business end was the "pen"; which is consistent with the
> stick bit always being called the "pen-holder".
--
Jerry Friedman
Mike Barnes
May 8, 2012, 3:30:23 PM5/8/12
to
Snidely <snide...@gmail.com>:
my notes. It was hell to write with, but style was everything.
>I went to a college with a big calligraphy colony (early '70s, near the
>confluence of the Willamette and Columbia), and Osmiroids were very
>common. So were Rapidiographs, which I couldn't afford back then.
As a student (though not a wealthy one) I used a Rotring Rapidograph for
>confluence of the Willamette and Columbia), and Osmiroids were very
>common. So were Rapidiographs, which I couldn't afford back then.
my notes. It was hell to write with, but style was everything.
Paul Wolff
May 8, 2012, 3:33:04 PM5/8/12
to
In message <jobr3l$e0q$1...@news.albasani.net>, Katy Jennison
<ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> writes
I have a learned objection to using trademarks to the detriment of their
owners, but leaving that aside, I'd say that 'biro' (or for that matter,
'bic') signifies a ball-pointed writing instrument having a reservoir of
oil-based ink. I've always believed that the so-called roller-ball pens
use water-based inks, and I think that gel inks must also be water-based
- aren't they?
--
Paul
<ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com> writes
owners, but leaving that aside, I'd say that 'biro' (or for that matter,
'bic') signifies a ball-pointed writing instrument having a reservoir of
oil-based ink. I've always believed that the so-called roller-ball pens
use water-based inks, and I think that gel inks must also be water-based
- aren't they?
--
Paul
James Silverton
May 8, 2012, 4:14:13 PM5/8/12
to
during exams. In those days, I would have called them "Biros" since a
large number were made by the Biro company. As a rather heavy handed
writer, I found that most seemed to leak before the ink container was
empty and I more or less gave them up for fountain pens. The leak
problem has now been solved even for the cheapest and I do use a ball
point for general writing. I even have ball-points with erasable ink,
tho' mostly for crosswords. (The ink can be rubbed off for a few days
but it then becomes fairly permanent.)
After college, I bought a Parker 51 pen that I still have and it's in
perfect condition several decades later tho' I don't use it much. That
was filled by squeezing the inner plastic reservoir.
--
Jim Silverton (Potomac, MD)
Extraneous "not" in Reply To.
David Dyer-Bennet
May 8, 2012, 4:52:45 PM5/8/12
to
me.
I'm pretty sure that oil vs. water is NOT a big part of the general
public's definition of the term (whatever that definition ends up
being). Possibly, but I think this is a stretch, some detail of
behavior would turn out to be definitional and related to technology in
current models.
Christian Weisgerber
May 8, 2012, 3:35:08 PM5/8/12
to
Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote:
> > Here in Germany they are still obligatory for a number of years in
> > school, starting in second grade.
>
> Really?!
> > Here in Germany they are still obligatory for a number of years in
> > school, starting in second grade.
>
Yes. Apparently the underlying pedagogical principle is that pupils
start out with crayons and then proceed with other writing utensils
until they arrive at the comparatively difficult fountain pen which
is supposed to teach the fine motor skills required for proper
writing.
I'm not sure what the general situation in France is. From googling
for "style-plume" I can tell that at least some schools/teachers
still require it.
--
Christian "naddy" Weisgerber na...@mips.inka.de
Christian Weisgerber
May 8, 2012, 4:11:28 PM5/8/12
to
Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
> >> Doesn't the German term refer to even older technology that involves
> >> plucking fowl?
> >
> > Rather like the word "pen" in fact.
>
> True, but much less obviously than "Feder", which still means the
> bird-covering-item.
It wasn't obvious to me when I was a child.
I assume the term you are thinking of is the slightly pedantic
"Füllfederhalter". Breaking that down into morphemes, it's
(Füll-(feder-(halt-er))).
"Feder" can mean:
(1) feather, quill
(2) elastic spring
(3) nib (of a pen)
I just checked Kluge, and the origin of (2) is poorly understood.
(3) is obviously derived from (1) if you know the history of writing
implements. As a child I didn't, associated (3) with (2), both
metal thingies, and wondered what the connection was since a nib
isn't springy.
"Halter", with the ubiquitous agentive suffix -er, is something
that holds, so "Federhalter" literally is a "nib holder". Originally
that term applied to a dip pen. When the fountain pen became
available, it was distinguished as "Füllfederhalter", from "füllen",
to fill.
Since "Füllfederhalter" is a bit unwieldy, it is frequently abbreviated
to just "Federhalter" (dip pens are long gone), syncoped to
"Füllhalter", or by generations of schoolchildren to the simple
"Füller".
There are also "Tuschefüller"... and now I'm starting to flounder
a bit, because German distinguishes "Tusche" and "Tinte", but both
translate as ink. I associate "Tinte" with writing and "Tusche"
with drawing, in particular when technical drawings were still done
in ink at literal drawing boards.
Wikipedia says "Tuschefüller" is a "technical pen".
> >> Doesn't the German term refer to even older technology that involves
> >> plucking fowl?
> >
> > Rather like the word "pen" in fact.
>
> True, but much less obviously than "Feder", which still means the
> bird-covering-item.
It wasn't obvious to me when I was a child.
I assume the term you are thinking of is the slightly pedantic
"Füllfederhalter". Breaking that down into morphemes, it's
(Füll-(feder-(halt-er))).
"Feder" can mean:
(1) feather, quill
(2) elastic spring
(3) nib (of a pen)
I just checked Kluge, and the origin of (2) is poorly understood.
(3) is obviously derived from (1) if you know the history of writing
implements. As a child I didn't, associated (3) with (2), both
metal thingies, and wondered what the connection was since a nib
isn't springy.
"Halter", with the ubiquitous agentive suffix -er, is something
that holds, so "Federhalter" literally is a "nib holder". Originally
that term applied to a dip pen. When the fountain pen became
available, it was distinguished as "Füllfederhalter", from "füllen",
to fill.
Since "Füllfederhalter" is a bit unwieldy, it is frequently abbreviated
to just "Federhalter" (dip pens are long gone), syncoped to
"Füllhalter", or by generations of schoolchildren to the simple
"Füller".
There are also "Tuschefüller"... and now I'm starting to flounder
a bit, because German distinguishes "Tusche" and "Tinte", but both
translate as ink. I associate "Tinte" with writing and "Tusche"
with drawing, in particular when technical drawings were still done
in ink at literal drawing boards.
Wikipedia says "Tuschefüller" is a "technical pen".
Mike L
May 8, 2012, 5:49:37 PM5/8/12
to
On Tue, 8 May 2012 12:13:28 -0700 (PDT), Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On May 8, 1:03 pm, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>...
>
>> One of my schoolmasters pointed out that a ballpoint wasn't a "pen" at
>> all, but an "ink pencil". It was some years until I discovered that
>> actually, if we were going to play that game, then a "pencil" was in
>> fact a kind of paintbrush.
>
>As I'm afraid I've said here before, some people in northern N. M.
>call a mechanical/propelling pencil a "lead pen".
>
>> An even earlier schoolmaster threw us
>> briefly by using "pen" only for the kind one dipped, in our lingo a
>> "dip pen".
>
>What did he use for the other ones? And were these teachers more
>rational on other subjects?
I tried to remember what the "pen" bloke called a fountain pen, but
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On May 8, 1:03 pm, Mike L <n...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>...
>
>> One of my schoolmasters pointed out that a ballpoint wasn't a "pen" at
>> all, but an "ink pencil". It was some years until I discovered that
>> actually, if we were going to play that game, then a "pencil" was in
>> fact a kind of paintbrush.
>
>As I'm afraid I've said here before, some people in northern N. M.
>call a mechanical/propelling pencil a "lead pen".
>
>> An even earlier schoolmaster threw us
>> briefly by using "pen" only for the kind one dipped, in our lingo a
>> "dip pen".
>
>What did he use for the other ones? And were these teachers more
>rational on other subjects?
drew a blank. I remember nothing else about him: I think he was
temporary. The "ink pencil" one was supremely successful at getting
pupils through with good grades, and it was he who taught American
history (the RAF had sent him to the US to learn to fly, and he
acquired an infectious taste for the country); the "ink pencil"
passage was just a typical piece of one-upmanship.
>
>> I've got a neat little box of nibs here, labelled "R.
>> Esterbrook & Co, PENS." Apparently Mr Esterbrook, his picture on the
>> box dated 1858 though the box must have been from about 1958, reckoned
>> that only the business end was the "pen"; which is consistent with the
>> stick bit always being called the "pen-holder".
>
>I suppose all of a quill would have counted as a pen, though.
To the translator of Haydn's _Creation_, yes: "On mighty pens uplifted
>> I've got a neat little box of nibs here, labelled "R.
>> Esterbrook & Co, PENS." Apparently Mr Esterbrook, his picture on the
>> box dated 1858 though the box must have been from about 1958, reckoned
>> that only the business end was the "pen"; which is consistent with the
>> stick bit always being called the "pen-holder".
>
>I suppose all of a quill would have counted as a pen, though.
soars the eagle aloft, the eagle aloft."
--
Mike.
Paul Wolff
May 8, 2012, 5:51:26 PM5/8/12
to
In message <jobuqh$uir$1...@dont-email.me>, James Silverton
<jim.si...@verizon.net> writes
with.
--
Paul
<jim.si...@verizon.net> writes
>After college, I bought a Parker 51 pen that I still have and it's in
>perfect condition several decades later tho' I don't use it much. That
>was filled by squeezing the inner plastic reservoir.
>
I have one too. It is a most sensually pleasurable instrument to write
>perfect condition several decades later tho' I don't use it much. That
>was filled by squeezing the inner plastic reservoir.
>
with.
--
Paul
Mike L
May 8, 2012, 5:55:56 PM5/8/12
to
On Tue, 08 May 2012 15:52:45 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <dd...@dd-b.net>
wrote:
I reckon the nature of the ink probably _is_ the key. At any rate,
it's the only significant difference to me, as the type of ball seems
tied to the kind of ink. Not sure how we'd find out whether this is
true for the electorate as a whole.
--
Mike.
wrote:
it's the only significant difference to me, as the type of ball seems
tied to the kind of ink. Not sure how we'd find out whether this is
true for the electorate as a whole.
--
Mike.
tony cooper
May 8, 2012, 7:26:16 PM5/8/12
to
On Tue, 8 May 2012 00:01:59 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
<peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>In my experience, left-handers either have completely illegible
>writing, or extremely neat writing, hardly ever anything in between.
I'm a left-hander who still bears scars on the back of my hand from
ruler-smacks delivered by nuns who thought writing with the hand above
the line of writing was the mark of the devil. (The scars aren't
visible, but I know they are there.)
I no longer write anything, anytime, in cursive unless you count my
scrawl of a signature. I print everything. Note-taking in college
was slower, but I wasn't much of a note-taker.
After two years of mechanical and architectural drawing in high
school, I have reasonably legible printing.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
<peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>In my experience, left-handers either have completely illegible
>writing, or extremely neat writing, hardly ever anything in between.
I'm a left-hander who still bears scars on the back of my hand from
ruler-smacks delivered by nuns who thought writing with the hand above
the line of writing was the mark of the devil. (The scars aren't
visible, but I know they are there.)
I no longer write anything, anytime, in cursive unless you count my
scrawl of a signature. I print everything. Note-taking in college
was slower, but I wasn't much of a note-taker.
After two years of mechanical and architectural drawing in high
school, I have reasonably legible printing.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Peter Moylan
May 8, 2012, 8:18:34 PM5/8/12
to
Paul Wolff wrote:
> I use fountain pens when I'm here, at home, at my desk. I don't often
> take one on my travels, because they aren't convenient for the sort of
> notes I'd be writing - the ink needs a little time to dry - and I'd
> worry about damaging them when using them in an awkward position, like
> making lecture notes in a lecture theatre designed for people smaller
> than me, and especially dropping one on its nib.
I can live with the fact that the seat is too small. What really bugs me
is that the bench in front of the seat is unsuitable for perching a
notepad or book.
It's a money-saving thing. Somebody worked out that you could fit more
students into a lecture theatre if you assumed that they weren't going
to take notes, and then the idea spread like wildfire. It doesn't help
that these decisions are made by people who have never done any
teaching, and probably haven't done any learning either.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
> I use fountain pens when I'm here, at home, at my desk. I don't often
> take one on my travels, because they aren't convenient for the sort of
> notes I'd be writing - the ink needs a little time to dry - and I'd
> worry about damaging them when using them in an awkward position, like
> making lecture notes in a lecture theatre designed for people smaller
> than me, and especially dropping one on its nib.
I can live with the fact that the seat is too small. What really bugs me
is that the bench in front of the seat is unsuitable for perching a
notepad or book.
It's a money-saving thing. Somebody worked out that you could fit more
students into a lecture theatre if you assumed that they weren't going
to take notes, and then the idea spread like wildfire. It doesn't help
that these decisions are made by people who have never done any
teaching, and probably haven't done any learning either.
--
Peter Moylan, Newcastle, NSW, Australia. http://www.pmoylan.org
For an e-mail address, see my web page.
Peter Moylan
May 8, 2012, 8:26:24 PM5/8/12
to
Peter Brooks wrote:
> I had the misfortune to have a woman from the old-school. Every
> morning when I arrived at school (during my first year) she would
> attach the pen or pencil to my right hand with sticky-tape, forcing me
> to use only that hand.
>
> It didn't 'cure' my left-handedness, [...]
I used to feel really sorry for a girl in my grade 3 class. Every time
the teacher caught her writing with her left hand she got a blow with
the edge of a steel rule. (This was in the days when the nuns believed
that left-handedness was a sign of devil possession.) She couldn't write
with her right hand because she was left-handed, and she couldn't write
with her left hand because it was so badly bruised.
I don't recall seeing her in grade 4, so she either changed schools or
had a severe breakdown.
> I had the misfortune to have a woman from the old-school. Every
> morning when I arrived at school (during my first year) she would
> attach the pen or pencil to my right hand with sticky-tape, forcing me
> to use only that hand.
>
> It didn't 'cure' my left-handedness, [...]
I used to feel really sorry for a girl in my grade 3 class. Every time
the teacher caught her writing with her left hand she got a blow with
the edge of a steel rule. (This was in the days when the nuns believed
that left-handedness was a sign of devil possession.) She couldn't write
with her right hand because she was left-handed, and she couldn't write
with her left hand because it was so badly bruised.
I don't recall seeing her in grade 4, so she either changed schools or
had a severe breakdown.
Peter Moylan
May 8, 2012, 8:42:57 PM5/8/12
to
Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> There are also "Tuschefüller"... and now I'm starting to flounder
> a bit, because German distinguishes "Tusche" and "Tinte", but both
> translate as ink. I associate "Tinte" with writing and "Tusche"
> with drawing, in particular when technical drawings were still done
> in ink at literal drawing boards.
When I had to do technical drawing, the ink that we used was the black
> There are also "Tuschefüller"... and now I'm starting to flounder
> a bit, because German distinguishes "Tusche" and "Tinte", but both
> translate as ink. I associate "Tinte" with writing and "Tusche"
> with drawing, in particular when technical drawings were still done
> in ink at literal drawing boards.
stuff that is called "Indian ink" in English.
A big part of the drawing task was washing the pens afterwards. Leaving
dried ink on a pen was almost a hanging offence, although it was not as
big an offence as failing to write with a slope of exactly twenty two
and a half degrees. (We used to draw guidelines in faint pencil to get
the slope right.)
Peter Moylan
May 8, 2012, 8:45:57 PM5/8/12
to
Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2012-05-08, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>> On 7/05/12 5:56 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
>>> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
>>> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
>>> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
>>> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>>>
>> No more opaque than the word "pen" (feather) itself.
>
> The difference is that "fountain" (like German "Feder") is still a
> live word in a non-stationery sense.
I've been told that the French word "plume" is almost dead, except of
> On 2012-05-08, Robert Bannister wrote:
>
>> On 7/05/12 5:56 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>
>>> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
>>> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
>>> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
>>> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>>>
>> No more opaque than the word "pen" (feather) itself.
>
> The difference is that "fountain" (like German "Feder") is still a
> live word in a non-stationery sense.
course when referring to birds' clothing.
Reinhold {Rey} Aman
May 8, 2012, 9:45:45 PM5/8/12
to
Peter Moylan wrote:
>
> I've been told that the French word "plume" is almost dead,
> except of course when referring to birds' clothing.
>
It's alive! « La plume de ma tante est sur la table de mon oncle ».
>
> I've been told that the French word "plume" is almost dead,
> except of course when referring to birds' clothing.
>
--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~
I need Facebook's "social network"
like I need a social disease.
MC
May 8, 2012, 9:49:59 PM5/8/12
to
In article <SfednSgvWoEOIDTS...@westnet.com.au>,
Peter Moylan <inv...@peter.pmoylan.org.invalid> wrote:
> When I had to do technical drawing, the ink that we used was the black
> stuff that is called "Indian ink" in English.
I'e always known that as "India" ink.
> When I had to do technical drawing, the ink that we used was the black
> stuff that is called "Indian ink" in English.
Robert Bannister
May 8, 2012, 10:57:44 PM5/8/12
to
On 8/05/12 2:05 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
> On Mon, 7 May 2012 11:06:19 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
> <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On May 7, 6:46 pm, Steve Hayes<hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 7 May 2012 05:11:07 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>>>
>>> <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On May 7, 12:12 pm, Paul Wolff<bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message<ep5fq7t8fqtlim2v2okkt0l73ouik79...@4ax.com>, Nick Spalding
>>>>> <spald...@iol.ie> writes
>>>>> Bottled ink is still available in general stationers like W H Smith, but
>>>>> I often see only one make and colour there, perhaps Parker Quink
>>>>> blue-black. The best red ink is Pelikan brilliant red.
>>>
>>>>> There's pleasure to be taken in writing with a good fountain pen on good
>>>>> paper. It even makes writing cheques less painful. Curiously,
>>>>> cheque-book paper seems always to be smooth and well made.
>>>
>>>> If you're right-handed, perhaps. If you're sinister, as I am, they're
>>>> a reminder of ghastly youthful torture.
>>>
>>> In my youth I used to keep a diary in hard copy, and sometimes used a
>>> foundtain pen and sometimes a dip pen. The dip pen was awkward to use while
>>> travelling.
>>>
>>> Over the last few years I've transcribed most of it into a computer database,
>>> and found the bits I had written with a dip pen were much easier to read.
>>>
>>> BTW I'm left handed.
>>>
>> I'm impressed that you managed so well! You must have had a
>> sympathetic writing teacher.
>
> I doubt that it was any more difficult for me than it is for right-handed
> people to write Hebrew or Arabic.
I don't know about writing, but I imagine a left-handed Arab would find
it socially impossible to eat out.
--
Robert Bannister
> On Mon, 7 May 2012 11:06:19 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
> <peter.h....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On May 7, 6:46 pm, Steve Hayes<hayes...@telkomsa.net> wrote:
>>> On Mon, 7 May 2012 05:11:07 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>>>
>>> <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On May 7, 12:12 pm, Paul Wolff<bounc...@two.wolff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message<ep5fq7t8fqtlim2v2okkt0l73ouik79...@4ax.com>, Nick Spalding
>>>>> <spald...@iol.ie> writes
>>>>> Bottled ink is still available in general stationers like W H Smith, but
>>>>> I often see only one make and colour there, perhaps Parker Quink
>>>>> blue-black. The best red ink is Pelikan brilliant red.
>>>
>>>>> There's pleasure to be taken in writing with a good fountain pen on good
>>>>> paper. It even makes writing cheques less painful. Curiously,
>>>>> cheque-book paper seems always to be smooth and well made.
>>>
>>>> If you're right-handed, perhaps. If you're sinister, as I am, they're
>>>> a reminder of ghastly youthful torture.
>>>
>>> In my youth I used to keep a diary in hard copy, and sometimes used a
>>> foundtain pen and sometimes a dip pen. The dip pen was awkward to use while
>>> travelling.
>>>
>>> Over the last few years I've transcribed most of it into a computer database,
>>> and found the bits I had written with a dip pen were much easier to read.
>>>
>>> BTW I'm left handed.
>>>
>> I'm impressed that you managed so well! You must have had a
>> sympathetic writing teacher.
>
> I doubt that it was any more difficult for me than it is for right-handed
> people to write Hebrew or Arabic.
I don't know about writing, but I imagine a left-handed Arab would find
it socially impossible to eat out.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 8, 2012, 11:01:06 PM5/8/12
to
On 8/05/12 11:31 PM, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> Steve Hayes<haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
>>>>> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
>>>>> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>>>>>
>>>> Does anybody still use a fountain pen though? For italics or art
>>>> effects, I usually see dip pens with tiny reservoir of ink in the nib
>>>> itself. Mostly, though, if anybody has to actually write something,
>>>> it's usually a biro these days.
>>>
>>> What the heck is a "biro", anyway? I know a ballpoint pen is one; but
>>> if you really mean your statement about these days, then it must cover
>>> other kinds of pens too; liquid ink rollers? Gel pens? What, exactly?
equivalent, "bic" can be used for other than ballpoint pens.
--
Robert Bannister
> Steve Hayes<haye...@telkomsa.net> writes:
>
>> On Mon, 07 May 2012 13:56:49 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet<dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Peter Brooks<peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>> On May 7, 8:47 am, Dr Nick<3-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>> On Mon, 07 May 2012 13:56:49 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet<dd...@dd-b.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Peter Brooks<peter.h....@gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Only in the second way. The first hinges on an obsolete sense of a
>>>>> word. The cartridge still acts as the fount (or font if you prefer) of
>>>>> the ink, but no-one would use that description today.
>>>>>
>>>> Does anybody still use a fountain pen though? For italics or art
>>>> effects, I usually see dip pens with tiny reservoir of ink in the nib
>>>> itself. Mostly, though, if anybody has to actually write something,
>>>> it's usually a biro these days.
>>>
>>> What the heck is a "biro", anyway? I know a ballpoint pen is one; but
>>> if you really mean your statement about these days, then it must cover
>>> other kinds of pens too; liquid ink rollers? Gel pens? What, exactly?
>>
>> A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
>
> Meaning it's a brand-name that has become a generic term?
>
> That still doesn't quite address my question; does "biro" now also cover
> a Uni-Ball Vision Elite (rolling-ball liquid ink pen)? How about a
> Staples Sonix Gel (rolling-ball gel ink pen)? I've never heard anybody
> call these "ballpoint pens", so my old knowledge that "a biro is a
> ballpoint" hasn't caught up with the new, more complicated, landscape.
I don't see how it can. We must ask Isabelle whether the French
>> A biro is to a ballpoint pen as a xerox is to a photocopier.
>
> Meaning it's a brand-name that has become a generic term?
>
> That still doesn't quite address my question; does "biro" now also cover
> a Uni-Ball Vision Elite (rolling-ball liquid ink pen)? How about a
> Staples Sonix Gel (rolling-ball gel ink pen)? I've never heard anybody
> call these "ballpoint pens", so my old knowledge that "a biro is a
> ballpoint" hasn't caught up with the new, more complicated, landscape.
equivalent, "bic" can be used for other than ballpoint pens.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 8, 2012, 11:04:35 PM5/8/12
to
or other writing instrument.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 8, 2012, 11:07:41 PM5/8/12
to
On 8/05/12 4:51 PM, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2012-05-08, LFS wrote:
>
>> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has deteriorated
>> horribly.
>
> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has failed to
> improve.
>
>
Since the best writing instrument available to me now is a computer, my
> On 2012-05-08, LFS wrote:
>
>> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has deteriorated
>> horribly.
>
> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has failed to
> improve.
>
>
handwriting has almost reached the point of illegibility. I frequently
have to ask a shop assistant to make sense of my shopping lists - great
embarrassment recently when what looked like "dickwart" turned out to be
"dishwash" - perhaps if I didn't write my lists in a semi-cypher, it
would be easier.
--
Robert Bannister
Snidely
May 8, 2012, 11:07:55 PM5/8/12
to
After serious thinking Paul Wolff wrote :
> like making lecture
> notes in a lecture theatre designed for people smaller than me, and
> especially dropping one on its nib.
Eventually even people smaller than you will get tired of being dropped
on their nibs, and kick back or something.
> like making lecture
> notes in a lecture theatre designed for people smaller than me, and
> especially dropping one on its nib.
on their nibs, and kick back or something.
Robert Bannister
May 8, 2012, 11:09:21 PM5/8/12
to
On 9/05/12 2:23 AM, Snidely wrote:
> David Dyer-Bennet scribbled something on Tuesday the 5/8/2012:
>> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 2012-05-08, LFS wrote:
>>>
>>>> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has
>>>> deteriorated horribly.
>>>
>>> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has failed to
>>> improve.
>>
>> Likewise. Oh my.
>> It's so rare that I do handwriting for *anybody else* these days. I
>> started typing my letters back around 1970 when I got an electric
>> typewriter, more recently it's all email or maybe texts on a phone.
>
> I went to a college with a big calligraphy colony (early '70s, near the
> confluence of the Willamette and Columbia), and Osmiroids were very
> common.
If I understand Devon Monk's books correctly, this is an area devoid of
> David Dyer-Bennet scribbled something on Tuesday the 5/8/2012:
>> Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com> writes:
>>
>>> On 2012-05-08, LFS wrote:
>>>
>>>> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has
>>>> deteriorated horribly.
>>>
>>> Even with the best writing instruments, my handwriting has failed to
>>> improve.
>>
>> Likewise. Oh my.
>> It's so rare that I do handwriting for *anybody else* these days. I
>> started typing my letters back around 1970 when I got an electric
>> typewriter, more recently it's all email or maybe texts on a phone.
>
> I went to a college with a big calligraphy colony (early '70s, near the
> confluence of the Willamette and Columbia), and Osmiroids were very
> common.
magic.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 8, 2012, 11:12:00 PM5/8/12
to
On 8/05/12 5:06 PM, Peter Brooks wrote:
> On May 8, 10:53 am, Adam Funk<a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>> On 2012-05-08, Bob Martin wrote:
>>
>>> in 1862969 20120507 221020 Adam Funk<a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>>> I have quite a few French cartridge pens (mostly or all Waterman).
>>>> The main problem I have is that the nibs get clogged if I don't use
>>>> each one often enough.
>>
>>> I use my 35-year-old Sheaffer every day. I can't stand ball-points.
>>
>> The strange thing is that one of the oldest ones I have has *never*
>> clogged, even though I don't use it very often now. The reason for
>> that is that the cap fitting has become loose from wear so I keep it
>> on my desk at home (too risky to carry around).
>>
> If the cap doesn't fit...
ObAue: I know this as "If the cap won't fit". Whether this is really
ascribing will to the cap or whether it's a later "correction" to an
earlier "If the cap don't fit", I don't know, but it sounds much
snappier than "doesn't".
--
Robert Bannister
> On May 8, 10:53 am, Adam Funk<a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>> On 2012-05-08, Bob Martin wrote:
>>
>>> in 1862969 20120507 221020 Adam Funk<a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>>> I have quite a few French cartridge pens (mostly or all Waterman).
>>>> The main problem I have is that the nibs get clogged if I don't use
>>>> each one often enough.
>>
>>> I use my 35-year-old Sheaffer every day. I can't stand ball-points.
>>
>> The strange thing is that one of the oldest ones I have has *never*
>> clogged, even though I don't use it very often now. The reason for
>> that is that the cap fitting has become loose from wear so I keep it
>> on my desk at home (too risky to carry around).
>>
> If the cap doesn't fit...
ObAue: I know this as "If the cap won't fit". Whether this is really
ascribing will to the cap or whether it's a later "correction" to an
earlier "If the cap don't fit", I don't know, but it sounds much
snappier than "doesn't".
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 8, 2012, 11:21:46 PM5/8/12
to
On 9/05/12 4:11 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
> Adam Funk<a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Doesn't the German term refer to even older technology that involves
>>>> plucking fowl?
>>>
>>> Rather like the word "pen" in fact.
>>
>> True, but much less obviously than "Feder", which still means the
>> bird-covering-item.
>
> It wasn't obvious to me when I was a child.
>
> I assume the term you are thinking of is the slightly pedantic
> "Füllfederhalter". Breaking that down into morphemes, it's
> (Füll-(feder-(halt-er))).
>
> "Feder" can mean:
> (1) feather, quill
> (2) elastic spring
> (3) nib (of a pen)
During our drive from England to Australia, we broke one of our bus
> Adam Funk<a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>
>>>> Doesn't the German term refer to even older technology that involves
>>>> plucking fowl?
>>>
>>> Rather like the word "pen" in fact.
>>
>> True, but much less obviously than "Feder", which still means the
>> bird-covering-item.
>
> It wasn't obvious to me when I was a child.
>
> I assume the term you are thinking of is the slightly pedantic
> "Füllfederhalter". Breaking that down into morphemes, it's
> (Füll-(feder-(halt-er))).
>
> "Feder" can mean:
> (1) feather, quill
> (2) elastic spring
> (3) nib (of a pen)
springs in Montenegro. When we got to Skopje, it was decided something
must be done, and as my friends had appointed me official interpreter, I
was sent to find a place to get it done. I did not know any Macedonian
at the time and I did not know the Russian for spring, neither could I
find anyone who admitted to speaking German.
I finally tracked a place down, mainly by looking in the parts of town
that looked as if they'd be full of repair places and, using sign
language, I asked what the Macedonian for 'spring' was. I was so annoyed
to discover it was "feder" - I hadn't thought of trying the German word
on them. A full day wasted for want of a word.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 8, 2012, 11:23:47 PM5/8/12
to
On 8/05/12 7:58 PM, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2012-05-07, Mike L wrote:
>
>> That's how cultures work, yes. I must say, I never managed to get a
>> pen to squirt ink like that, although strongly encouraged to by the
>> examples in comic strips. Note that in some older literature
>> (including comics), ink was squirted from a "fountain-pen filler",
>> which was a little rubber bulb with a nozzle attached: these were used
>> in yet earlier times when fountain-pens, in their descent from the
>> feathered-dinosaur kind, hadn't yet evolved bladders.
>
> Apparently dinosaurs farted a lot too.
So the true descendants of the dinosaurs are not birds or crocodiles,
but cows and that old man who always stands in the corner of the pub.
--
Robert Bannister
> On 2012-05-07, Mike L wrote:
>
>> That's how cultures work, yes. I must say, I never managed to get a
>> pen to squirt ink like that, although strongly encouraged to by the
>> examples in comic strips. Note that in some older literature
>> (including comics), ink was squirted from a "fountain-pen filler",
>> which was a little rubber bulb with a nozzle attached: these were used
>> in yet earlier times when fountain-pens, in their descent from the
>> feathered-dinosaur kind, hadn't yet evolved bladders.
>
> Apparently dinosaurs farted a lot too.
So the true descendants of the dinosaurs are not birds or crocodiles,
but cows and that old man who always stands in the corner of the pub.
--
Robert Bannister
Robert Bannister
May 8, 2012, 11:25:40 PM5/8/12
to
On 8/05/12 7:59 PM, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2012-05-08, Peter Brooks wrote:
>> Pass many years ago.
>
> Even if it's frozen, it was non-stationery. :-)
>
>
But doesn't a fountain pen count as stationery?
--
Robert Bannister
> On 2012-05-08, Peter Brooks wrote:
>
>> On May 8, 10:49 am, Adam Funk<a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>> On 2012-05-08, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/05/12 5:56 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>>>> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
>>>>> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
>>>>> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
>>>>> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>>>
>>>> No more opaque than the word "pen" (feather) itself.
>>>
>>> The difference is that "fountain" (like German "Feder") is still a
>>> live word in a non-stationery sense.
>>>
>> Apart from frozen ones - I saw a lovely example of one on the Sani
>> On May 8, 10:49 am, Adam Funk<a24...@ducksburg.com> wrote:
>>> On 2012-05-08, Robert Bannister wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 7/05/12 5:56 AM, Christian Weisgerber wrote:
>>>>> So what you guys are saying is that the name must be understood in
>>>>> the increasingly incomprehensible context of 19th century technology
>>>>> and is justifiably opaque to somebody who has only ever seen ink
>>>>> cartridge "fountain" pens.
>>>
>>>> No more opaque than the word "pen" (feather) itself.
>>>
>>> The difference is that "fountain" (like German "Feder") is still a
>>> live word in a non-stationery sense.
>>>
>> Pass many years ago.
>
> Even if it's frozen, it was non-stationery. :-)
>
>
But doesn't a fountain pen count as stationery?
--
Robert Bannister
Peter Brooks
May 9, 2012, 12:09:13 AM5/9/12
to
On May 9, 4:57 am, Robert Bannister <robb...@bigpond.com> wrote:
> On 8/05/12 2:05 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 7 May 2012 11:06:19 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
> On 8/05/12 2:05 PM, Steve Hayes wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mon, 7 May 2012 11:06:19 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
polite people (I know that they cut each other's heads off from time
to time, but other polite peoples have done that too - the Japanese in
particular) and I've never been made to feel uncomfortable, or even
observed, when, inadvertently, (I do try to be polite too) using my
left hand to eat when in Arabia. As well as the politeness, though,
there's probably the factor of being an infidel, a kafir, that means
that what I do doesn't matter much in the scheme of things - this
factor would be missing for sinister Arabs.
Peter Brooks
May 9, 2012, 12:11:06 AM5/9/12
to
R H Draney
May 9, 2012, 2:07:09 AM5/9/12
to
Robert Bannister filted:
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
>
>Since the best writing instrument available to me now is a computer, my
>handwriting has almost reached the point of illegibility. I frequently
>have to ask a shop assistant to make sense of my shopping lists - great
>embarrassment recently when what looked like "dickwart" turned out to be
>"dishwash" - perhaps if I didn't write my lists in a semi-cypher, it
>would be easier.
You should have told him to abt natural, then threatened him with your gub....r
>Since the best writing instrument available to me now is a computer, my
>handwriting has almost reached the point of illegibility. I frequently
>have to ask a shop assistant to make sense of my shopping lists - great
>embarrassment recently when what looked like "dickwart" turned out to be
>"dishwash" - perhaps if I didn't write my lists in a semi-cypher, it
>would be easier.
--
Me? Sarcastic?
Yeah, right.
R H Draney
May 9, 2012, 2:08:45 AM5/9/12
to
Robert Bannister filted:
witness their fascination with shiny stones....r
>
>So the true descendants of the dinosaurs are not birds or crocodiles,
>but cows and that old man who always stands in the corner of the pub.
Men are descended from apes...but women come to us from the magpie kingdom, as
>So the true descendants of the dinosaurs are not birds or crocodiles,
>but cows and that old man who always stands in the corner of the pub.
witness their fascination with shiny stones....r
Peter Brooks
May 9, 2012, 2:24:07 AM5/9/12
to
On May 9, 1:26 am, tony cooper <tony.cooper...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 8 May 2012 00:01:59 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>
> On Tue, 8 May 2012 00:01:59 -0700 (PDT), Peter Brooks
>
> <peter.h.m.bro...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >In my experience, left-handers either have completely illegible
> >writing, or extremely neat writing, hardly ever anything in between.
>
> I'm a left-hander who still bears scars on the back of my hand from
> ruler-smacks delivered by nuns who thought writing with the hand above
> the line of writing was the mark of the devil. (The scars aren't
> visible, but I know they are there.)
>
They're an evil lot, nuns.
> >In my experience, left-handers either have completely illegible
> >writing, or extremely neat writing, hardly ever anything in between.
>
> I'm a left-hander who still bears scars on the back of my hand from
> ruler-smacks delivered by nuns who thought writing with the hand above
> the line of writing was the mark of the devil. (The scars aren't
> visible, but I know they are there.)
>
>
> I no longer write anything, anytime, in cursive unless you count my
> scrawl of a signature. I print everything. Note-taking in college
> was slower, but I wasn't much of a note-taker.
>
Me too. If you're taking notes you can't be listening properly and the
> I no longer write anything, anytime, in cursive unless you count my
> scrawl of a signature. I print everything. Note-taking in college
> was slower, but I wasn't much of a note-taker.
>
key to understanding lectures is to listen.
>
> After two years of mechanical and architectural drawing in high
> school, I have reasonably legible printing.
>
I gave up engineering mainly because they required technical drawing.
> After two years of mechanical and architectural drawing in high
> school, I have reasonably legible printing.
>
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