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Origin and meaning of the phrase "ashes in your mouth"

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Nilesh

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May 16, 2002, 6:46:13 PM5/16/02
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I think I have heard this phrase most commonly in this context:

Your sweet taste of victory will taste like ashes in your mouth.
Cld someone give me the origin of this phrase or maybe explain it to me better.
Thanks in Advance
N

Mike Oliver

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May 16, 2002, 7:17:08 PM5/16/02
to

The phrase to me is irrevocably associated with the story in
which I first recall encountering it, "The Devil and Dan'l Webster".
The point-of-view character, whose name I don't recall, sells
his soul to the Devil in exchange for prosperity. As the
time grows near for his soul to be claimed, things are outwardly
going very well for him, "there was talk of ----- for Governor,
and it was ashes in his mouth".

I think that context should explain the phrase pretty well. As
to origin, I couldn't tell you.

Donna Richoux

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May 17, 2002, 5:54:09 AM5/17/02
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Nilesh <niles...@yahoo.com> wrote:

It's reasonably literal. You know what ashes are. You can imagine what
they taste like. When people used to cook over real fires, ash used to
get on and in the food. It was not pleasant.

The metaphorical part is saying that the experience of victory is like a
"taste" of any sort.

--
Best wishes -- Donna Richoux

Raymond S. Wise

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May 17, 2002, 1:08:58 PM5/17/02
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Mike Oliver <oli...@math.ucla.edu> wrote in message news:<3CE43DF4...@math.ucla.edu>...


I took a look at the entry for "ash" in *The Century Dictionary*
because I was curious if it would cite some use of "ashes in the
mouth" prior to that story. It did not--it didn't have the phrase at
all--but I *did* find the following, which I found interesting:

From
www.century-dictionary.com


[quote, with ASCII IPA used in place of the original pronunciation
symbols]

ash-hole /'&ShoUl/, _n._ A repository for ashes;
the lower part of a furnace ; an ash-bin.

[end quote]


Now *that* is the sort of thing I was talking about when I told Eric
Walker that usages that prove unfit go extinct! "Ash-hole" started out
as a perfectly good term, that is, perfectly fit for its language
environment, but changes in the language turned it into an undesirable
expression.

"Ash Hole" continues as a geographic name in Great Britain, for a
cavern and for a crag. I did find one reference to a name for a type
of geographical feature, "ash-hole basin." The author who used that
term was probably British: he spelled "organization" with an "s"
instead of a "z."


--
Raymond S. Wise
Minneapolis, Minnesota USA

E-mail: mplsray @ yahoo . com

Kevin Plumley

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May 18, 2002, 9:16:51 AM5/18/02
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On Fri, 17 May 2002 11:54:09 +0200, tr...@euronet.nl (Donna Richoux)
wrote:

>Nilesh <niles...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I think I have heard this phrase most commonly in this context:
>>
>> Your sweet taste of victory will taste like ashes in your mouth. Cld
>> someone give me the origin of this phrase or maybe explain it to me
>> better. Thanks in Advance
>
>It's reasonably literal. You know what ashes are. You can imagine what
>they taste like. When people used to cook over real fires, ash used to
>get on and in the food. It was not pleasant.

Not pleasant? I wouldn't say that. From memory, not so dry as a
well-chilled chablis, of course, but adding just the required piquant
touch of je ne sais quoi to the - I think we had the wrong name for
the flour and water pads we cooked in the woods and on which
we grew almost as tall as any grown on impure McD's etc., and
perceptibly more sensible. It's said it takes a pound of dirt to grow
a child - Where do children have contact with any earth, not porno,
these times.

abramovic...@gmail.com

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Jan 13, 2015, 9:57:03 PM1/13/15
to
пятница, 17 мая 2002 г., 1:46:13 UTC+3 пользователь Nilesh написал:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/turn-to-ashes-in-one's-mouth

Peter Moylan

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Jan 14, 2015, 2:14:25 AM1/14/15
to
On 14/01/15 13:57, abramovic...@gmail.com wrote:
> пятница, 17 мая 2002 г., 1:46:13 UTC+3 пользователь Nilesh написал:
>> I think I have heard this phrase most commonly in this context:
>>
>> Your sweet taste of victory will taste like ashes in your mouth.
>> Cld someone give me the origin of this phrase or maybe explain it to me better.
>> Thanks in Advance
>
> http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/turn-to-ashes-in-one's-mouth

And it took Nilesh 13 years to get an answer! That puts a whole new
light on "Thanks in advance".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
JE SUIS CHARLIE

Richard Tobin

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Jan 14, 2015, 5:35:02 AM1/14/15
to
In article <37642ae4-20bb-4e2d...@googlegroups.com>,
<abramovic...@gmail.com> wrote:

>> Your sweet taste of victory will taste like ashes in your mouth.

>http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/turn-to-ashes-in-one's-mouth

Strangely, "turn to ashes" is also used of food in a positive sense
in the Bible. That's how God likes his meat - Psalm 20:3.

-- Richard

Derek Turner

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Jan 14, 2015, 6:12:14 AM1/14/15
to
On Tue, 13 Jan 2015 18:57:00 -0800, abramovich.michael wrote:

> пятница, 17 мая 2002 г., 1:46:13 UTC+3 пользователь Nilesh написал:
>> I think I have heard this phrase most commonly in this context:
>>
>> Your sweet taste of victory will taste like ashes in your mouth.
>> Cld someone give me the origin of this phrase or maybe explain it to me
>> better.
>> Thanks in Advance N

...suddenly into Serpents, according to his doom given in Paradise; then,
deluded with a shew of the Forbidden Tree springing up before them, they,
greedily reaching to take of the Fruit, chew dust and bitter ashes.
John Milton. (1608–1674).

snide...@gmail.com

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Jan 15, 2015, 12:18:17 AM1/15/15
to
On Tuesday, January 13, 2015 at 11:14:25 PM UTC-8, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 14/01/15 13:57, abramovic...@gmail.com wrote:
> > пятница, 17 мая 2002 г., 1:46:13 UTC+3 пользователь Nilesh написал:
> >> I think I have heard this phrase most commonly in this context:
> >>
> >> Your sweet taste of victory will taste like ashes in your mouth.
> >> Cld someone give me the origin of this phrase or maybe explain it to me better.
> >> Thanks in Advance
> >
> > http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/turn-to-ashes-in-one's-mouth
>
> And it took Nilesh 13 years to get an answer! That puts a whole new
> light on "Thanks in advance".
>

The given URL takes care of explaining it, with some examples, but for the
origins a backlink there is better, pointing to
<URL:http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/ash#ash>
has a reference to "John de Mandeville's Travels, a 14th-century work [...]"
and a legendary froot.

/dps "once had everything taste like ashes"

kryqtysh245

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Nov 9, 2016, 2:53:31 AM11/9/16
to
It came about from the common 60s day experience of passing around a joint and, eventually, getting ash in your mouth when you suck too hard on burnt out bud. "Turning to ashes in the mouth" means whenever something good was expected, but something bad turned out.

Peter Moylan

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Nov 9, 2016, 4:05:20 AM11/9/16
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Wow! Not only a resurrection of an ancient thread, but a totally wrong
answer.

I won't try to give my answer, because the person who asked the question
is long gone.

Lewis

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Nov 9, 2016, 4:35:53 AM11/9/16
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In message <f4481f27-e923-4b1c...@googlegroups.com>
This is ridiculous.

--
99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name.

Charles Bishop

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Nov 9, 2016, 8:45:54 AM11/9/16
to
In article <slrno25rfn....@Snow.local>,
Of course it is, and from 2002 when we knew better. It is, of course,
from reference to The Plague, where they sang "Ashes, ashes, we all fall
down" referring to the ashes they got in their mouths as they fell.

--
charles

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

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Nov 9, 2016, 9:06:48 AM11/9/16
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<smile>
The version I know is:
Ring a ring o'roses, a pocketful of posies, atishoo, atishoo, all fall
down.

The rhyme, its variants and possible origins are discussed here:
http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/ring-a-ring-of-roses.html

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

Jerry Friedman

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Nov 9, 2016, 9:52:19 AM11/9/16
to
Intentionally, I'd guess.

--
Jerry Friedman

Dingbat

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Nov 9, 2016, 9:57:16 AM11/9/16
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I'm reminded of these other Ashes, in Test cricket.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ashes

Athel Cornish-Bowden

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Nov 9, 2016, 3:09:46 PM11/9/16
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That's very charitable of you.
--
athel

Robert Bannister

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Nov 9, 2016, 9:35:39 PM11/9/16
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Was that a joke? I'm sure the expression is a lot older than smoking by
English-speakers.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

Robert Bannister

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Nov 9, 2016, 9:36:36 PM11/9/16
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It is, of course, entirely natural to sing when dying of the plague.

Janet

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Nov 10, 2016, 12:25:46 PM11/10/16
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In article <e8i4pg...@mid.individual.net>, rob...@clubtelco.com
says...
Before film and TV showed us how, nobody knew the right way to die of
anything.

Janet.

RH Draney

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Nov 10, 2016, 1:28:44 PM11/10/16
to
Interestingly, Rachel Maddow last night opened her show with a recap of
the Cuban Missile Crisis...the former was represented by a short clip of
President Kennedy assuring the nation that while we wouldn't start a
nuclear war, we wouldn't hold back if someone else attacked first...the
clip concluded with JFK saying "in nuclear war, the fruits of victory
are ashes in the mouth"....

The retrieval of this archival footage may explain why the 2002 thread
got resurrected yesterday....r

Robert Bannister

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Nov 10, 2016, 7:21:31 PM11/10/16
to
Good point. Perhaps I should start work on my deathbed speech (not to
exceed 3000 words).

Cheryl

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Nov 10, 2016, 8:30:10 PM11/10/16
to
I'm sure you're mistaken. Opera and plays showed us how to do it, but
alas, too few people are really up to singing an aria or making a
dramatic speech while dying.


--
Cheryl

Sam Plusnet

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Nov 11, 2016, 3:36:22 PM11/11/16
to
In article <e8kh87...@mid.individual.net>,
rob...@clubtelco.com says...
>
> Good point. Perhaps I should start work on my deathbed speech (not to
> exceed 3000 words).
>
>

I do wonder how Marcel Marceau's version went.

CDB

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Nov 12, 2016, 6:48:45 AM11/12/16
to
On 11/11/2016 3:36 PM, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> rob...@clubtelco.com says...

>> Good point. Perhaps I should start work on my deathbed speech (not
>> to exceed 3000 words).

> I do wonder how Marcel Marceau's version went.

Perhaps he pointed something towards heaven.


georgia...@gmail.com

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Jun 13, 2018, 12:29:10 PM6/13/18
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the reward for the first Olympics games was a gold doughnut covered in Honey and walnuts so the taste of victory was sweet

lmat...@zis.ch

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Oct 9, 2018, 6:33:11 AM10/9/18
to
On Friday, May 17, 2002 at 12:46:13 AM UTC+2, Nilesh wrote:
> I think I have heard this phrase most commonly in this context:
>
> Your sweet taste of victory will taste like ashes in your mouth.
> Cld someone give me the origin of this phrase or maybe explain it to me better.
> Thanks in Advance
> N

thanks

Peter T. Daniels

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Oct 9, 2018, 7:54:49 AM10/9/18
to
As Peter Moylan wrote on January 14, 2015,

On 14/01/15 13:57, abramovic...@gmail.com wrote:
> пятница, 17 мая 2002 г., 1:46:13 UTC+3 пользователь Nilesh написал:
>> I think I have heard this phrase most commonly in this context:
>>
>> Your sweet taste of victory will taste like ashes in your mouth.
>> Cld someone give me the origin of this phrase or maybe explain it to me better.
>> Thanks in Advance
>
> http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/turn-to-ashes-in-one's-mouth

And it took Nilesh 13 years to get an answer! That puts a whole new
light on "Thanks in advance".

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
JE SUIS CHARLIE

The thread was also revived on November 9, 2016, and, without response,
June 13, 2018.

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