Obsolescence of "thrice" -- a strange counterexample to trends in English usage

[Paul]

Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.

Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?

Paul

[David Kleinecke]

Right off the top of my head:
"in spite of" for "maugre"
"work hard" for "swink"

[Peter Young]

In AmE "transportation" for "transport". One of my bugbears.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Pt)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[Jenny Telia]

"Facebook like" for "nice"

[charles]

In article <f6aaac6e5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,

Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
> On 20 Aug 2017 David Kleinecke <dklei...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 9:20:07 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
> >> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
> >> towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
> >> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
> >>
> >> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
> >> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?

> > Right off the top of my head:
> > "in spite of" for "maugre"
> > "work hard" for "swink"

> In AmE "transportation" for "transport". One of my bugbears.

> Peter.

and another I heard "compositionize" for "compose"

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[Peter T. Daniels]

We just had "dear" and "expensive."

[occam]

On 20/08/2017 20:11, charles wrote:
> In article <f6aaac6e5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,
> Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 20 Aug 2017 David Kleinecke <dklei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 9:20:07 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
>>>> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
>>>> towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
>>>> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
>>>> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
>
>>> Right off the top of my head:
>>> "in spite of" for "maugre"
>>> "work hard" for "swink"
>
>> In AmE "transportation" for "transport". One of my bugbears.
>
>
>

> and another I heard "compositionize" for "compose"
>

"technical malfunction" in place of "glitch"

[Peter Young]

And didn't we have on this group, "coronated" for "crowned"? No, I
won't tell the spilling chucker about "coronated".

[Katy Jennison]

"From there" for "thence".

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 2:54:57 PM UTC-4, Peter Young wrote:
> On 20 Aug 2017 charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
> > In article <f6aaac6e5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,
> > Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
> >> On 20 Aug 2017 David Kleinecke <dklei...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 9:20:07 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:

> >>>> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
> >>>> towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
> >>>> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
> >>>> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
> >>>> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
> >>> Right off the top of my head:
> >>> "in spite of" for "maugre"
> >>> "work hard" for "swink"
> >> In AmE "transportation" for "transport". One of my bugbears.

> > and another I heard "compositionize" for "compose"
>
> And didn't we have on this group, "coronated" for "crowned"? No, I
> won't tell the spilling chucker about "coronated".

Meaning too much Mexican beer?

[Dingbat]

On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 11:19:01 PM UTC+5:30, Peter Young wrote:
> On 20 Aug 2017 David Kleinecke <dklei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 9:20:07 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
> >> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
> >> towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
> >> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
> >>
> >> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
> >> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
>
> > Right off the top of my head:
> > "in spite of" for "maugre"
> > "work hard" for "swink"
>
> In AmE "transportation" for "transport". One of my bugbears.

'remediation' for 'remedy'.

'for the time being' for 'for the nonce'

[Tony Cooper]

"Feature" in place of "bug" for software.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[RH Draney]

On 8/20/2017 11:54 AM, Peter Young wrote:
> On 20 Aug 2017 charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>
>> In article <f6aaac6e5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,
>> Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 20 Aug 2017 David Kleinecke <dklei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>>> On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 9:20:07 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
>>>>> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
>
>>>> Right off the top of my head:
>>>> "in spite of" for "maugre"
>>>> "work hard" for "swink"
>
>>> In AmE "transportation" for "transport". One of my bugbears.
>

>> and another I heard "compositionize" for "compose"
>
> And didn't we have on this group, "coronated" for "crowned"? No, I
> won't tell the spilling chucker about "coronated".

"Preventative" for "preventive"....r

[Dingbat]

Burglarized for burgle.

[Pavel Svinchnik]

Or "from where" for "whence".

Paul

[bill van]

In article <566eaef1...@candehope.me.uk>,

charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:

> In article <f6aaac6e5...@pnyoung.ormail.co.uk>,
> Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:
> > On 20 Aug 2017 David Kleinecke <dklei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 9:20:07 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
> > >> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
> > >> towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
> > >> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
> > >>
> > >> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
> > >> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
>
> > > Right off the top of my head:
> > > "in spite of" for "maugre"
> > > "work hard" for "swink"
>
> > In AmE "transportation" for "transport". One of my bugbears.
>

> and another I heard "compositionize" for "compose"

You've got a rare one there. Google finds exactly eight hits for
"compositionize". This subthread will likely add many more.
--
bill

[Dingbat]

"Dear", and Russian "Dorogoy" have (the same) two meanings:
1) beloved
2) expensive

[Joseph C. Fineman]

It's pretty common, esp. in the US.

"coal miner" for "collier"
"stationery store proprietor" for "stationer"
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: What's bad for the bow ain't good for the stern. :||

[bebe...@aol.com]

"From head to foot" for "cap-a-pie"

[Peter Young]

"At this moment in time" for "Now"

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Just like French "cher". Unlike English "dear", "cher" is very much
alive in the sense of "expensive".


--
athel

[charles]

In article <billvan-CBC8F9...@88-209-239-213.giganet.hu>,

I heard it on the radio some years ago, uttered by a USian.

[CDB]

On 8/21/2017 4:07 AM, charles wrote:
> bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:
>> charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>>> Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:

>>>> David Kleinecke <dklei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Paul wrote:

>>>>>> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a
>>>>>> clear trend towards abbreviation. However, the replacement
>>>>>> of the older "thrice" by the modern "three times" seems a
>>>>>> curious counterexample.

>>>>>> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern
>>>>>> form of a word or phrase contains more syllables than its
>>>>>> predecessor?

>>>>> Right off the top of my head: "in spite of" for "maugre"
>>>>> "work hard" for "swink"

>>>> In AmE "transportation" for "transport". One of my bugbears.

>>> and another I heard "compositionize" for "compose"

>> You've got a rare one there. Google finds exactly eight hits for
>> "compositionize". This subthread will likely add many more.

> I heard it on the radio some years ago, uttered by a USian.

BrE has "orientate" for "orient", "pressurise" for "pressure", and
"scarify" for "scare" (but maybe only in comics).

[LFS]

Or lawns.



--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[Peter Moylan]

Acoustic guitar.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, August 21, 2017 at 8:26:38 AM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 21/08/17 02:20, Paul wrote:

> > Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
> > towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
> > by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
> >
> > Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
> > word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
>
> Acoustic guitar.

Should retronyms count as the same thing?

rotary phone
gasoline-powered car

[CDB]

On 8/21/2017 5:24 AM, LFS wrote:

Nothing scares my lawn, which commands armed forces on land and in the air.

[Katy Jennison]

On 21/08/2017 13:26, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 21/08/17 02:20, Paul wrote:
>> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
>> towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
>> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
>>
>> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
>> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
>
> Acoustic guitar.
>

Meet up with.

--
Katy Jennison

[Dingbat]

When I learned English, using 'meet' thus was not meet.
One met with accidents, not with people.
One met people the first time one saw them.
After that, one conferred* with them.
* or other words not including 'meet'

[Janet]

In article <onerf4$pn3$2...@news.albasani.net>, ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com
says...

Gifted with/given

Janet

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:

>
> Dingbat said:
>>
>> "Dear", and Russian "Dorogoy" have (the same) two meanings:
>> 1) beloved
>> 2) expensive
>
> Just like French "cher".
>

And just like German _teuer_.

--
~~~ Reinhold {Rey} Aman ~~~

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

I'm in two minds about "Gifted with/given".

You can give or be given something without its being a gift.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter Young]

In BrE orientate and orient are two totally different things, as are
pressurise (a verb) and pressure (a noun). Also, scare and scarify
also mean two different things.

ObAUE: My British spilling chucker doesn't recognise "pressurise".
Assuming that I know what is meant by this word, most BrE speakers
would say "compress".

[CDB]

On 8/21/2017 2:39 PM, Peter Young wrote:

"Orient" (to locate or direct correctly) and "pressure" (to persuade by
practical means) are both verbs in NAmE, in place of which (IME)
BrEophones use the longer verbs*. Maybe it isn't the best English; that
use of "scarify" is politely deplored by online Oxford:

"verb
[with object]
usually as adjective scarifying
informal

Frighten.
‘a scarifying mix of extreme violence and absurdist humor’

Origin
Late 18th century: formed irregularly from scare, perhaps on the pattern
of terrify."

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/scarify#scarify-2
_____________________________________________________________________
*"If you are pressurized into doing something, you are forcefully
persuaded to do it."

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/pressurize

Collins also lists "orientate" as a variant of "orient". I don't recall
seeing or hearing them used in AmE. I learned the words** when my uncle
gave me a subscription to a British "comic"*** for my birthday. I don't
remember the title, but that was in the early '50s, and there was a
public-schoolboy serial featuring a Billy Bunter type, "the boy who took
the biscuit", and a crime serial whose hero forgot his name after a blow
on the head and had to soldier on under another name from "Widdicombe
Fair" -- "Bill Brewer" became "Harry Hawk", I think.

** and "tec, tyre, kerb, bonnet, gaol", and so on.

***The quotation marks convey puzzlement. It wasn't much
like Bugs, Lulu, or Tarzan.

[Peter Young]

On 21 Aug 2017 CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:

That meaning of "pressure" is almost unknown to me. If it appeared in
a text, I might recognise it, but I wouldn't ever write or say it in
that meaning.

> in place of which (IME) BrEophones use the longer verbs*. Maybe it
> isn't the best English; that use of "scarify" is politely deplored by
> online Oxford:

> "verb
> [with object]
> usually as adjective scarifying
> informal

> Frighten.
> ‘a scarifying mix of extreme violence and absurdist humor’

> Origin
> Late 18th century: formed irregularly from scare, perhaps on the pattern
> of terrify."

> https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/us/scarify#scarify-2

With the greatest respect to the OED, this is more like the usual
current (and medical) BrE meaning of "scarify" (found on-line):

From The Collaborative International Dictionary of English v.0.48
[gcide]:

Scarify \Scar"i*fy\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. {Scarified}; p. pr. &
vb. n. {Scarifying}.] [F. scarifier, L. scarificare,
scarifare, fr. Gr. ? to scratch up, fr. ? a pointed
instrument.]
1. To scratch or cut the skin of; esp. (Med.), to make small
incisions in, by means of a lancet or scarificator, so as
to draw blood from the smaller vessels without opening a
large vein.
[1913 Webster]

2. (Agric.) To stir the surface soil of, as a field.
[1913 Webster] Scariose


From WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) [wn]:

scarify
v 1: puncture and scar (the skin), as for purposes or tribal
identification or rituals; "The men in some African tribes
scarify their faces"
2: scratch the surface of; "scarify seeds"
3: break up; "scarify soil"

[snip "pressurised" and "orient", as I need sleep. I might come back
to this, if time allows]

[Dingbat]

How about gifted without given?

If you're gifted with intelligence, was it given?

[Janet]

In article <95e4f342-6957-44d8...@googlegroups.com>,
ranjit_...@yahoo.com says...

If you were gifted with a spongecake, were you born that way?

Janet

[Peter Young]

More useful than being born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 20:03:34 +0100, Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk>
wrote:

>On 22 Aug 2017 Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>
>> In article <95e4f342-6957-44d8...@googlegroups.com>,
>> ranjit_...@yahoo.com says...
>>>
>>> On Monday, August 21, 2017 at 11:47:42 PM UTC+5:30, PeterWD wrote:
>>>> On Mon, 21 Aug 2017 16:41:21 +0100, Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In article <onerf4$pn3$2...@news.albasani.net>, ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com
>>>>>says...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 21/08/2017 13:26, Peter Moylan wrote:
>>>>>>> On 21/08/17 02:20, Paul wrote:
>>>>>>>> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
>>>>>>>> towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
>>>>>>>> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
>>>>>>>> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Acoustic guitar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Meet up with.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gifted with/given
>>>>>
>>>>> Janet
>>>>
>>>> I'm in two minds about "Gifted with/given".
>>>>
>>>> You can give or be given something without its being a gift.
>>>>
>>> How about gifted without given?
>>>
>>> If you're gifted with intelligence, was it given?
>
>> If you were gifted with a spongecake, were you born that way?
>
>More useful than being born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

Dunno. How much is an ounce of spongecake worth these days?

[Tony Cooper]

About the same as an ounce of prevention.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Mack A. Damia]

Don't forget to floss.

[Peter Moylan]

On 23/08/17 05:03, Peter Young wrote:
> On 22 Aug 2017 Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:

>> If you were gifted with a spongecake, were you born that way?

> More useful than being born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

A former Australian politician was once described as having been born
with a silver foot in his mouth.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, August 22, 2017 at 10:27:28 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 23/08/17 05:03, Peter Young wrote:
> > On 22 Aug 2017 Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:

> >> If you were gifted with a spongecake, were you born that way?
> > More useful than being born with a silver spoon in your mouth.
>
> A former Australian politician was once described as having been born
> with a silver foot in his mouth.

When was George H. W. Bush a former Australian politician?

The line was by the late great Democratic Governor of Texas Ann Richards,
delivering the keynote (or similar) address at the 1992 Democratic National
Convention.

[Mack A. Damia]

The observation was originally made about Newbold Morris, New York's
patrician Commissioner of Parks (who once recommended Central Park as
a good place for homeless people to spend the night). The New York
Times' 1966 obituary of Morris credited its own reporter Paul Crowell
with observing, 'Newbold was born with a silver foot in his mouth."
From "Nice Guys Finish Seventh: False Phrases, Spurious Sayings, and
Familiar Misquotations" by Ralph Keyes (HarperPerennial, 1993).

http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/33/messages/251.html

[Peter Moylan]

> On Tue, 22 Aug 2017 20:13:46 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tuesday, August 22, 2017 at 10:27:28 PM UTC-4, Peter Moylan wrote:

>>> A former Australian politician was once described as having been born
>>> with a silver foot in his mouth.
>>
>> When was George H. W. Bush a former Australian politician?

Apparently it's been said of a number of people over the years, but the
only one I knew about, until I looked it up today, was Alexander Downer.

I had to do a lot of googling before I managed to remember his name, by
the way. One of the most senior ministers in the Australian government
in the 1990s, and now it's hard to recall who he was. Sic transit gloria
Dumby.

[Dingbat]

foodgrains presumbaly used to be called cereals in the US; they're still
called cereals in India. Cereal, in the US, seems to have been appropriated
by makers of breakfast cereal.

[Dingbat]

On Monday, August 21, 2017 at 5:56:38 PM UTC+5:30, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 21/08/17 02:20, Paul wrote:
> > Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
> > towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
> > by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
> >
> > Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
> > word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
>
> Acoustic guitar.
>

Is 'Electric guitar' still used?

Electric guitar | Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_guitar

[bill van]

In article <9c4005f1-42e2-4f15...@googlegroups.com>,

Yes, at second-hand stores and pawn shops.
--
bill

[CDB]

On 8/22/2017 3:03 PM, Peter Young wrote:
> Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>> ranjit_...@yahoo.com says...
>>> PeterWD wrote:
>>>> Janet <nob...@home.com> wrote:
>>>>> ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com says...

>>>>>> Peter Moylan wrote:>>>>>>> Paul wrote:

>>>>>>>> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a
>>>>>>>> clear trend towards abbreviation. However, the
>>>>>>>> replacement of the older "thrice" by the modern "three
>>>>>>>> times" seems a curious counterexample.

>>>>>>>> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern
>>>>>>>> form of a word or phrase contains more syllables than
>>>>>>>> its predecessor?

>>>>>>> Acoustic guitar.


>>>>>> Meet up with.

>>>>> Gifted with/given>>>>>

>>>> I'm in two minds about "Gifted with/given".

>>>> You can give or be given something without its being a gift.

>>> How about gifted without given?

>>> If you're gifted with intelligence, was it given?

>> If you were gifted with a spongecake, were you born that way?

> More useful than being born with a silver spoon in your mouth.

The spoon will get you more at the pawn-shop.

[Peter T. Daniels]

It's less likely that Ann Richards got it from a 1960s quip by a NYT reporter about a local
NYC official (who presumably had been Robert Moses's successor as Parks Commissioner) than that
the Ozzies got it from her well-publicized and superbly honed attack. It's not the sort of thing
that couldn't be repeatedly invented independently, though.

This Sunday on one of the news programs (either Meet the Press or Face the Nation), while they
were talking about Bush's post-Charlottesville idiotic statements, Peggy Noonan reminded people
of how well Reagan had handled the _Challenger_ disaster (the space shuttle that exploded on launch,
on national TV while millions of children were watching because it carried "the first teacher in
space"). Eugene Robinson then reminded her that she, not Reagan, had written the comforting
words he read to the nation.

Peggy Noonan also sank G H W Bush's reelection by writing the idiotic and memorable line "Read
my lips: No new taxes," which no politician should have been stupid enough to say in his acceptance
speech at the national convention. (Also "a thousand points of light," which was just silly.)
I don't understand why, 30+ years later, the Sunday shows still turn to her for "commentary."

[Richard Tobin]

In article <e7a511b8-0ca3-45c5...@googlegroups.com>,

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>It's less likely that Ann Richards got it from a 1960s quip by a NYT
>reporter about a local NYC official

Much earlier than that. The New Yorker quoted it in 1944 (see Google
Books, which also finds an application of it to "Senator Taft").

-- Richard

[Dingbat]

On Monday, August 21, 2017 at 12:24:57 AM UTC+5:30, Peter Young wrote:
> And didn't we have on this group, "coronated" for "crowned"? No, I
> won't tell the spilling chucker about "coronated".

Well, a coronet* is what was once called a crownlet.
* in one of its meanings

[Dingbat]

On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 11:19:01 PM UTC+5:30, Peter Young wrote:
> On 20 Aug 2017 David Kleinecke <dklei...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> > On Sunday, August 20, 2017 at 9:20:07 AM UTC-7, Paul wrote:
> >> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
> >> towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
> >> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
> >>
> >> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
> >> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
>

> > Right off the top of my head:
> > "in spite of" for "maugre"
> > "work hard" for "swink"
>
> In AmE "transportation" for "transport". One of my bugbears.
>

I don't care for "poulterer" for what used to be "poulter". Fortunately,
I never have occasion to use either.

[Peter T. Daniels]

There were a zillion Tafts in Ohio Republican politics!

I was referring to the one Damia found.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <23ad7ee0-8170-4df6...@googlegroups.com>,

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> >It's less likely that Ann Richards got it from a 1960s quip by a NYT
>> >reporter about a local NYC official

>> Much earlier than that. The New Yorker quoted it in 1944 (see Google
>> Books, which also finds an application of it to "Senator Taft").

>There were a zillion Tafts in Ohio Republican politics!
>
>I was referring to the one Damia found.

The one that he found is the same one quoted by the New Yorker in
1944.

-- Richard

[Peter T. Daniels]

No, since his was about Newbold Morris, who was not a Taft, but a Morris -- one
of the oldest families in New York. Gouverneur Morris signed both the Articles
of Confederation and the Constitution -- and wrote the Preamble ("We the People
... do ordain and establish ...").

[Richard Tobin]

In article <d54d97e3-d3b1-4ab3...@googlegroups.com>,

Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>> >> >It's less likely that Ann Richards got it from a 1960s quip by a NYT
>> >> >reporter about a local NYC official

>> >> Much earlier than that. The New Yorker quoted it in 1944 (see Google
>> >> Books, which also finds an application of it to "Senator Taft").

>> >There were a zillion Tafts in Ohio Republican politics!
>> >
>> >I was referring to the one Damia found.

>> The one that he found is the same one quoted by the New Yorker in
>> 1944.

>No, since his was about Newbold Morris, who was not a Taft

As usual, you are deliberately misunderstanding. According to Google
Books, The New Yorker quoted the comment about Newbold Morris in 1944.
Google Books also finds an application of the phrase to Senator Taft.

You could have resolved this by looking it up in Google Books
yourself, but of course you choose to play silly games instead.

-- Richard

[Peter T. Daniels]

[Richard Tobin]

In article <2707ba3f-f53a-448a...@googlegroups.com>,

The obituary was in the 1960s. The quip was made by Crowell decades
earlier, as we can see from the fact that the New Yorker quoted it,
attributing it to Crowell, in 1944.

-- Richard

[Peter T. Daniels]

Why are you saying it was about a Taft? It was about Newbold Morris.

[Richard Tobin]

In article <9e6c1f61-9ff6-42db...@googlegroups.com>,

I don't believe that you're discussing this in good faith. In the
unlikely event that you are, look it up yourself.

-- Richard

[occam]

On 20/08/2017 18:20, Paul wrote:
> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
> towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
>
> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
>

'Often' (or that AmE abomination 'oftentimes') replacing the now defunct
'oft'

[Peter T. Daniels]

I don't waste time on "bad faith."

I'm now about 25% of the way through proofreading the bibliography of my book
(there are some weird typesetting errors), and I don't have time to waste on
trying to discomfit you or to track down where you might have gotten your
cryptic comments from.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Who says "oftentimes"?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Well yes, but in

> Signior Antonio, many a time and oft
> In the Rialto you have rated me

"many a time" seems to mean the same as "oft" (if not, what's the
difference?), so it's longer than "oftentimes". (However, I agree that
"oftentimes" is an abomination.)


--
athel

[bebe...@aol.com]

Le jeudi 24 août 2017 22:26:19 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
> On 2017-08-24 19:07:03 +0000, occam said:
>
> > On 20/08/2017 18:20, Paul wrote:
> >> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
> >> towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
> >> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
> >>
> >> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
> >> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
> >>
> >
> > 'Often' (or that AmE abomination 'oftentimes') replacing the now defunct
> > 'oft'
>
> Well yes, but in
>
> > Signior Antonio, many a time and oft
> > In the Rialto you have rated me
>
> "many a time" seems to mean the same as "oft" (if not, what's the
> difference?),

Doesn't "many a time" refer to an absolute number of occurrences, when "oft(en)"
can refer to the frequency of occurrences?

>so it's longer than "oftentimes". (However, I agree that
> "oftentimes" is an abomination.)

"oft(-)times"?

>
>
> --
> athel

[Robert Bannister]

All the same, nobody says "coronetted", unless to mean "wearing a
coronet", whereas "crown" means "to place a crown on someone's head" (or
to bash someone's head with a blunt instrument).

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Robert Bannister]

On 22/8/17 2:39 am, Peter Young wrote:
> On 21 Aug 2017 CDB <belle...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On 8/21/2017 4:07 AM, charles wrote:
>>> bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>> charles <cha...@candehope.me.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Peter Young <pny...@ormail.co.uk> wrote:

>>>>>> David Kleinecke <dklei...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Paul wrote:
>
>>>>>>>> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a
>>>>>>>> clear trend towards abbreviation. However, the replacement
>>>>>>>> of the older "thrice" by the modern "three times" seems a
>>>>>>>> curious counterexample.
>
>>>>>>>> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern
>>>>>>>> form of a word or phrase contains more syllables than its
>>>>>>>> predecessor?
>

>>>>>>> Right off the top of my head: "in spite of" for "maugre"
>>>>>>> "work hard" for "swink"
>
>>>>>> In AmE "transportation" for "transport". One of my bugbears.
>

>>>>> and another I heard "compositionize" for "compose"
>
>>>> You've got a rare one there. Google finds exactly eight hits for
>>>> "compositionize". This subthread will likely add many more.
>
>>> I heard it on the radio some years ago, uttered by a USian.
>
>> BrE has "orientate" for "orient", "pressurise" for "pressure", and
>> "scarify" for "scare" (but maybe only in comics).
>
> In BrE orientate and orient are two totally different things

Not as verbs, surely.

, as are
> pressurise (a verb) and pressure (a noun).

Have you never been pressured into agreeing on something you felt uneasy
about?

Also, scare and scarify
> also mean two different things.
>
> ObAUE: My British spilling chucker doesn't recognise "pressurise".
> Assuming that I know what is meant by this word, most BrE speakers
> would say "compress".
>
> Peter.

[Robert Bannister]

On 21/8/17 9:35 am, Joseph C. Fineman wrote:

> Paul <peps...@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
>> towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
>> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
>>
>> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
>> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
>

> It's pretty common, esp. in the US.
>
> "coal miner" for "collier"

Hmm. I usually take "collier" to mean the owner or operator of a coal
mine, rather than a worker.

> "stationery store proprietor" for "stationer"

[Robert Bannister]

On 21/8/17 10:41 pm, Katy Jennison wrote:

> On 21/08/2017 13:26, Peter Moylan wrote:
>> On 21/08/17 02:20, Paul wrote:

>>> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
>>> towards abbreviation.  However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
>>> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
>>>
>>> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
>>> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
>>

>> Acoustic guitar.
>>
>
> Meet up with.
>

Doesn't "meet up with" mean "encounter by accident" as opposed to
"meet", which is usually by design? Two different verbs in German.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2017-08-25 00:44:32 +0000, bebe...@aol.com said:

> Le jeudi 24 août 2017 22:26:19 UTC+2, Athel Cornish-Bowden a écrit :
>> On 2017-08-24 19:07:03 +0000, occam said:
>>
>>> On 20/08/2017 18:20, Paul wrote:
>>>> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
>>>> towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
>>>> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
>>>>
>>>> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
>>>> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
>>>>
>>>
>>> 'Often' (or that AmE abomination 'oftentimes') replacing the now defunct
>>> 'oft'
>>
>> Well yes, but in
>>
>>> Signior Antonio, many a time and oft
>>> In the Rialto you have rated me
>>
>> "many a time" seems to mean the same as "oft" (if not, what's the>
>> difference?),
> Doesn't "many a time" refer to an absolute number of occurrences, when
> "oft(en)"
> can refer to the frequency of occurrences?

Yes, you're right that they don't mean the same. I withdraw my comment.

>
>> so it's longer than "oftentimes". (However, I agree that> "oftentimes"
>> is an abomination.)
>
> "oft(-)times"?
>
>>
>>
>> --
>> athel

--
athel

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2017 10:04:27 +0800, Robert Bannister
<robertb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:

>On 21/8/17 9:35 am, Joseph C. Fineman wrote:
>> Paul <peps...@gmail.com> writes:
>>
>>> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
>>> towards abbreviation. However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
>>> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
>>>
>>> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
>>> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
>>
>> It's pretty common, esp. in the US.
>>
>> "coal miner" for "collier"
>
>Hmm. I usually take "collier" to mean the owner or operator of a coal
>mine, rather than a worker.

In BrE a "collier" is a "coal miner":
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/collier

Its use is, I think, regional and dialectal. In some places a coal mine
is a "pit" and a miner is a "pitman".

>
>> "stationery store proprietor" for "stationer"
>>

--

Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Janet]

In article <f09f0k...@mid.individual.net>,
robertb...@iprimus.com.au says...

>
> On 21/8/17 10:41 pm, Katy Jennison wrote:
> > On 21/08/2017 13:26, Peter Moylan wrote:
> >> On 21/08/17 02:20, Paul wrote:
> >>> Observing casually how English usage changes, there's a clear trend
> >>> towards abbreviation.  However, the replacement of the older "thrice"
> >>> by the modern "three times" seems a curious counterexample.
> >>>
> >>> Can anyone think of any other examples where the modern form of a
> >>> word or phrase contains more syllables than its predecessor?
> >>
> >> Acoustic guitar.
> >>
> >
> > Meet up with.
> >
>
> Doesn't "meet up with" mean "encounter by accident" as opposed to
> "meet", which is usually by design? Two different verbs in German.

Not in my Br E.

"He arranged to meet up with friends on Sunday"

Janet.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

+1

OED:

to meet up
intr. To meet, assemble, esp. by prior arrangement.


to meet up with

2. intr. orig. U.S. To encounter; to become acquainted with; to come
together with (a person) by arrangement.


I've not met this before:
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/meetup

meetup
noun
US

An informal meeting or gathering.

That suggests an arranged meeting.

[j...@mdfs.net]

Robert Bannister wrote:
> > "coal miner" for "collier"
> Hmm. I usually take "collier" to mean the owner or operator of a coal
> mine, rather than a worker.

Being from coastal town, I take "collier" to mean a coal transport
ship. Collier's Ghaut: the slipway leading to the moorings where the
coat ships would moor up.

jgh

[Robert Bannister]

Seems our dialects are different. I couldn't meet up with someone on
purpose.

[bill van]

In article <f0bpdr...@mid.individual.net>,

In my Canadian English, there is a strong implication of planning to
"meet up" with someone. When it's pure coincidence, I run into them:
"Guess who I ran into at the Polish deli?"
--
bill

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2017 22:35:29 -0700, bill van <bil...@delete.shaw.ca>
wrote:

There is also "bump(ed) into" for a similar chance meeting.

[Robert Bannister]

A bit like car crashes: I ran into a bus, I bumped into a lamppost, I
met up with an accident. Whereas I met a train, meaning I was there on
time to meet a friend arriving on that train.

[Snidely]

on 8/24/2017, Peter T. Daniels supposed :

Two references were cited. Not just one.

/dps

--
Rule #0: Don't be on fire.
In case of fire, exit the building before tweeting about it.
(Sighting reported by Adam F)

[GordonD]

I wouldn't say that 'pit' is regional. 'Pitman', probably.

--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

[GordonD]

AmE has 'visit with' as in 'I visited with John yesterday,' meaning that
I went to John's house. BrE would simply be 'I visited John'. In BrE the
sentence 'I visited with John' has a missing object, namely the person
whom *both John and I* went to see. 'I visited Mary with John' - though
that still sounds a little awkward; 'John and I visited Mary' is more
likely.

[Peter T. Daniels]

It's passé hipster slang. Akin to "flashmob."

> AmE has 'visit with' as in 'I visited with John yesterday,' meaning that
> I went to John's house.

That's regional. It's not "AmE" _tout court_.

> BrE would simply be 'I visited John'. In BrE the
> sentence 'I visited with John' has a missing object, namely the person
> whom *both John and I* went to see. 'I visited Mary with John' - though
> that still sounds a little awkward; 'John and I visited Mary' is more
> likely.

"Visit" is 'go see'. "Visit with" is 'go see and pleasantly pass some
time'. I imagine Aunt Bee saying it (on *The Andy Griffith Show*).

[HVS]

On Mon, 28 Aug 2017 09:23:34 +0100, GordonD <g.d...@btinternet.com>
wrote:

> On 25/08/2017 10:35, Peter Duncanson [BrE] wrote:
> > On Fri, 25 Aug 2017 10:04:27 +0800, Robert Bannister
> > <robertb...@iprimus.com.au> wrote:
> >
> >> On 21/8/17 9:35 am, Joseph C. Fineman wrote:

-snip -

> >>> "coal miner" for "collier"
> >>
> >> Hmm. I usually take "collier" to mean the owner or operator of a
coal
> >> mine, rather than a worker.
> >
> > In BrE a "collier" is a "coal miner":
> > https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/collier
> >
> > Its use is, I think, regional and dialectal. In some places a
coal mine
> > is a "pit" and a miner is a "pitman".

> I wouldn't say that 'pit' is regional. 'Pitman', probably.

My default meaning for a "collier" is for a ship (possibly a barge?)
that carries coal.

--
Cheers, Harvey
CanE (30 years) & BrE (34 years),
indiscriminately mixed

[Sam Plusnet]

At one time here in the UK, the term "colliery worker" was used since
this covered both the underground miners and those who worked at the pit
head (i.e. above ground).

--
Sam Plusnet

[Tony Cooper]

STS inducer!

Farewell ye colliery workers, the muffler and the cap
Farewell ye Rhondda valley girls, we never will come back
The mines they are a-closin', the valleys they're all doomed
`There's no work in the Rhondda boys, we'll be in London soon

My father was a miner, and his father was before him,
He always had been proud to work the coal
Since they fell 'neath Roben's axe,
All the lads have had the sack
So away to work in England we must go!

No more the chapel singin', that long ago has left us
And the public house no more the miner's songs
For the boot wheels they are stoppin',
And the populations' droppin'
And I can't afford to stay here very long

Treherbert and Treorchy, Tonypandy and Tynewydd
Ystrad Rhondda and Ton Pentre, all adieu
For I can no longer wait
While Parliament debates
So a fond farewell I bid to all of you!
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Katy Jennison]

In my experience of rural Illinois, "visit with" doesn't necessarily
imply "go" unless "go" applies to merely crossing the room. You can
"visit with" a small group of three people at a party -- in other words,
simply spend some time with those three people.

--
Katy Jennison

[Robert Bannister]

I have even read in books with a southern setting sentences where the
"go and see" part isn't even there because the character has already
gone to the house where she "visited with" her friend. Have I also seen
"had a nice visit with"? I take "visit with" in (some) American English
to mean "have a chat with".

[Rich Ulrich]

Yes. And it is "chat" rather than a synonym like "speaking".

You could do business with someone and afterwards take time
to visit with them.

--
Rich Ulrich

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Ha. Take that, the people who don't think "adieu" rhymes with "you".

> For I can no longer wait
> While Parliament debates
> So a fond farewell I bid to all of you!


--

athel

[GordonD]

Oh, that's an abomination, on a par with "Do you want to come with?"

[J. J. Lodder]

Or perfectly good Dunglish.
'Wil je meekomen?'

Jan

[Sam Plusnet]

I haven't heard/read that before, but both my Mother and Grandmother
were Rhondda valley girls (at least for a while).

Both my Grandfather & Father were miners.

That occupation kept my Grandfather out of WWI, but my Father didn't let
it keep him out of the second version.

There are no (deep) coal mines anywhere in the UK today.

--
Sam Plusnet

[Tony Cooper]

There is a punctuation typo (not mine) in those lyrics. "Roben's axe"
refers to Alfred Robens (Baron Robens of Woldingham) of the National
Coal Board. He was appointed in 1961, and mining jobs declined by
half during his tenure.

[Robert Bannister]

I was amazed when I read the suggestion that it doesn't. Of course, I
can say "adieu" as in French, but the English way was always "@-DYOO".
In older German, it was "ade" (approx. ah-DAY), but in the song from The
White Horse Inn it is the French way: Adieu, mein klener Gardeoffizier,
adieu, adieu...

[Sam Plusnet]

I lived in a pit village throughout his time in office & I don't think
he was especially hated there.
The public attitude to Robens turned very sour as a result of his
(perceived) response to the horrific disaster in 1966 at Aberfan where
the collapse of a pit tip caused the deaths of 116 schoolchildren & 28
adults.

--
Sam Plusnet