A Facebook exchange which caught my eye paints a bigger picture

[Spains Harden]

"The problem with people these days is they’re too easily lead,
the data climate extinction are using only extends to 200yrs,
not even a millisecond in the space time continuum.
The moon orbits the Earth, the Earth orbits the Sun and guess
what, the Sun orbits the Milky Way.

Average human life span 80yrs
A Lunar yr = 28days
A Solar yr = 365.6days
A Cosmic yr = 225-250 million Earth yrs.
The Earth is roughly 4.54billion yrs old, which equates to the Sun
having orbited the Milky Way 18 times, and people think the data
from the last 200yrs proves the Earth is dying".

"The Earth is not dying, just the animals that live on it".

"Excuse me but that’s called evolution, modern day man has only
been around for 200,000yrs, civilisation occurred around 6000yrs
ago, there is a vast amount of evidence that many upon many
different species have been extinct long before man learnt how to
light a fire, that’s how the Earth evolves, you think man is any
different? Please.

Yes the Earth is entering a warming period, not one thing man can
do to stop that, there are 3 North Stars the polar north points to,
Polaris, which the current North Star, Beta Ursae Miniors in the
Vega system, is where the polar north is heading, bringing a warmer
climate, which will last for around 8000yrs, from there the polar
north will align with Theban in the Draco constellation, to which
the Earth will enter into an ice age, until the polar north returns
to Polaris.

Read the Precession of the Equinoxes, geological evidence confirms
this, but the climate extinction loons won’t tell you this because
it would destroy every aspect of their argument".

[Ross]

And wind turbines are wiping out the Bald Eagle.

Idiocracy.

[Peter Moylan]

On 27/01/20 19:13, Spains Harden wrote:

> "The problem with people these days is they’re too easily lead, the
> data climate extinction are using only extends to 200yrs, not even a
> millisecond in the space time continuum. The moon orbits the Earth,
> the Earth orbits the Sun and guess what, the Sun orbits the Milky
> Way.

[...]

The quotation marks suggest that you are quoting someone. Is the
identity of the crank a secret?

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Spains Harden]

On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 11:40:30 AM UTC, Peter Moylan wrote:
> On 27/01/20 19:13, Spains Harden wrote:
>
> > "The problem with people these days is they’re too easily lead, the
> > data climate extinction are using only extends to 200yrs, not even a
> > millisecond in the space time continuum. The moon orbits the Earth,
> > the Earth orbits the Sun and guess what, the Sun orbits the Milky
> > Way.
>
> [...]
>
> The quotation marks suggest that you are quoting someone. Is the
> identity of the crank a secret?

You can find it in "Old Seaside Postcards & Cartoons, No Mardy Gits
Allowed !" Search using: "Mardy".

[Spains Harden]

ObAUE: <https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2839487106109947&set=gm.1736898139778606&type=3&theater&ifg=1>

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 5:19:01 AM UTC-5, Ross wrote:
> On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 9:13:43 PM UTC+13, Spains Harden wrote:

[some bizarre anti-climate-protection legislation propaganda, in
quotes but unsourced]

> And wind turbines are wiping out the Bald Eagle.
>
> Idiocracy.

A Bald Eagle seems to have taken up residence in Manhattan's Riverside
Park! It is said they have really good rent control and occupy the same
digs for as long as 30 years.

[Rich Ulrich]

On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 00:13:40 -0800 (PST), Spains Harden
<spains...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
>Read the Precession of the Equinoxes, geological evidence confirms
>this, but the climate extinction loons won’t tell you this because
>it would destroy every aspect of their argument".

And I thought the essay was heading to exactly the
opposite conclusion.

Humans are causing such climate changes, fast, that
ordinarily take place over many millennia.

--
Rich Ulrich

[Quinn C]

* Spains Harden:

> "The problem with people these days is they’re too easily lead,

> [...]

And what exactly did you find remarkable in the language of that long
quote?

--
"I didn't mind getting old when I was young, either," I said.
"It's the being old now that's getting to me."
-- J. Scalzi, Old Man's War

[J. J. Lodder]

Not quite. Under very special circumstances,
such as happened at the end of the Younger Dryas,
people may see the climate change in a lifetime,
as is happening now,

Jan

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 13:57:12 -0500, Quinn C
<lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:

>* Spains Harden:
>
>> "The problem with people these days is they’re too easily lead,
>> [...]
>
>And what exactly did you find remarkable in the language of that long
>quote?

An errant "a"?

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[CDB]

On 1/27/2020 1:57 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> * Spains Harden:

>> "The problem with people these days is they’re too easily lead,
>> [...]

> And what exactly did you find remarkable in the language of that
> long quote?

People as toy soldiers?

[J. J. Lodder]

Poor man's soldiers, those. Rich man's are tin,

Jan

[Spains Harden]

On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 6:57:18 PM UTC, Quinn C wrote:
> * Spains Harden:
>
> > "The problem with people these days is they’re too easily lead,
> > [...]
>
> And what exactly did you find remarkable in the language of that long
> quote?

I can get through a simple spelling mistake. Can you?

[Joseph C. Fineman]

Spains Harden <spains...@yahoo.com> writes:

> "The problem with people these days is they’re too easily lead,

Laid?
--
--- Joe Fineman jo...@verizon.net

||: In trying to understand oppression, the second thing you :||
||: should do is blame the victim. :||

[Quinn C]

* Spains Harden:

Sure. But can you answer my original question?

I suspect the answer is "nothing", i.e. the post went to the wrong
group.

--
Behold, honored adversaries,
We are the instruments of your joyful death.
Consu war chant -- J. Scalzi, Old Man's War

[bil...@shaw.ca]

On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 3:14:40 PM UTC-8, Joseph C. Fineman wrote:
> Spains Harden <spains...@yahoo.com> writes:
>
> > "The problem with people these days is they’re too easily lead,
>
> Laid?
> --

When I worked in newspapers, we used "led" for the past tense of lead
because it is so easily misred.

bill

[Peter Moylan]

On 28/01/20 06:54, Tony Cooper wrote:
> On Mon, 27 Jan 2020 13:57:12 -0500, Quinn C
> <lispa...@crommatograph.info> wrote:
>
>>* Spains Harden:
>>
>>> "The problem with people these days is they’re too easily lead,
>>> [...]
>>
>>And what exactly did you find remarkable in the language of that long
>>quote?
>
> An errant "a"?

He means that they're grey and dense.

[Peter Moylan]

It's a mistake that misles many people.

[Spains Harden]

And people hitting the panic buttons only makes things worse:

"Let's power our vehicles on bio-diesel".
"Let's eat soya rather than meat".

...is the equivalent of "Let's cut down the rain forests and see
what happens".

Electric cars halve emissions in our cities. But what about the
Chinese cities where the batteries are being produced? With only a
two year lifespan? Is there really any net gain?

There is a power station in the NE of England powered by renewable
wood-chips. Fine if those wood-chips came from the NE of England,
but they don't, they come from the W coast of Canada.

[snide...@gmail.com]

On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 11:36:59 PM UTC-8, Spains Harden wrote:

> Electric cars halve emissions in our cities. But what about the
> Chinese cities where the batteries are being produced? With only a
> two year lifespan? Is there really any net gain?

And the Arizona and Brandenberg factories, don't forget.

I've seen something of a recent analysis that yes, there is a net gain
with EVs, even with battery production.
[I will indeed be looking for the cite; but I didn't find it tonight
in limited searching]

And the the two year lifespan is being attacked
with both new battery technologies and improvements to existing batteries.
Tesla feels that the million-mile battery is within reach.

Meanwhile, the construction industry accounts for about 40% of CO2 emissions,
according to several reports (concrete production in particular).

/dps

[snide...@gmail.com]

Here's a report on a process that can reduce landfill emissions
and strengthen concrete so that less is needed:

<URL:https://phys.org/news/2020-01-lab-trash-valuable-graphene.html>

It be interesting to see this scaled up.

/dps

[Quinn C]

* bil...@shaw.ca:

Is that green as seen by protanopes?

--
Bring home one dismembered body part, once, mind you, once,
and people get twitchy about checking your luggage ever after.
-- Vicereine Cordelia
in L. McMaster Bujold, Gentleman Jole and the Red Queen

[Rich Ulrich]

I think you confirm what I wrote. Big climate changes
/ordinarily/ take place over many millennia.

The Younger Dryas was not the ordinary change -
thanks for mentioning it. That was new to me. I looked
it up, wondering if it might be a name for the asteriod
impact of 65 million years ago.

Among the commentaries and explanations, I like the
idea that the Younger Dryas might reflect sudden
adjustments that may take place at the end of every
major ice age. What happens with ocean currents
is still a big puzzle. If the Gulf Stream stops, northern
Europe will become much cooler for a while.

I also like the idea that one asteroid or its fragments
may have been responsible for the Younger Dryas.

--
Rich Ulrich

[J. J. Lodder]

The Younger Dryas was caused by the outflow of a huge fresh water lake
into the northern atlantic after breaking of an ice dam.

> What happens with ocean currents is still a big puzzle.

Not really. The 'thermo-haline circulation' is well understood.

> If the Gulf Stream stops, northern Europe will become much cooler for a
> while.

Much indeed. London will have a climate comparable
to what is now at Spitsbergen/Svalbard.
If it lasts we'll have another ice age.

> I also like the idea that one asteroid or its fragments
> may have been responsible for the Younger Dryas.

Why? It is nonsense.
But anyway, those who lived at the end of the Younger Dryas
saw just what we are seeing now: a dramatic warming
that is quite obvious even in a single human lifespan,

Jan

FYA, a typical example is the Frisian 'Elfstedentocht'.
It was a long distance skating event on natural ice over 200 km.
It could only be held in severe winters,
after a cold spell lasting at least two weeks.

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elfstedentocht#Winners>
lists the winners, so the years in which it could be held.
Best prediction for the future, nevermore.

[Paul Carmichael]

On 28/01/2020 10:47, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 11:36:59 PM UTC-8, Spains Harden wrote:
>
>> Electric cars halve emissions in our cities. But what about the
>> Chinese cities where the batteries are being produced? With only a
>> two year lifespan? Is there really any net gain?
>
> And the Arizona and Brandenberg factories, don't forget.
>
> I've seen something of a recent analysis that yes, there is a net gain
> with EVs, even with battery production.
> [I will indeed be looking for the cite; but I didn't find it tonight
> in limited searching]
>
> And the the two year lifespan is being attacked
> with both new battery technologies and improvements to existing batteries.
> Tesla feels that the million-mile battery is within reach.

The bank of lead-acid batteries in my loft cost me 8000 euros 4 years ago. They're showing
signs of impending death already.

I am not happy.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/elpatio

[Spains Harden]

This chart purports to show the climate ups and downs during the
latestt 17,000 years or so:

<https://wattsupwiththat.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/clip_image0021.jpg>

From this website:

<https://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/19/the-intriguing-problem-of-the-younger-dryaswhat-does-it-mean-and-what-caused-it/>

[Katy Jennison]

Nothing (at least, nothing recorded there) between 1963 and 1985.
Interesting. In the UK we had a very cold winter in 1981-2 (which was
the last time I skated on the Norfolk Broads).

--
Katy Jennison

[J. J. Lodder]

Not surprising, just very cold is not good enough. [1]
The 'Elfstedentocht' requires 15 cm of ice thickness
to support the crowds safely, over the whole 200 km length.
In practice this requires 14 very cold days,
with no thaw or heavy snowfall in between.
Even then it is still necessay to do 'ice transplants'
to reinforce weak spots, like under bridges.
2012 was another 'close, but not good enough'.
Don't think they didn't try,
those Frisians go crazy at the slightest chance of having one.

But you are no doubt one of those who can testify to
climate change within a lifetime.
When at school you could no doubt often skate outdoors.
Nowadays lakes rarely begin freezing over.

Jan


[1] <https://wintergek.nl/winter/1981/>
gives the obversved temperatures.
Very cold, but not cold enough.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I remember it well. British Rail in its wisdom decided that the middle
of the coldest spell in living memory was a good moment to do a trial
run of the Advanced Passenger Train. They encountered problems that
would never have occurred in normal conditions. We were staying with my
sister at the time, and my brother-in-law, who is an engineer, said
that the Advanced Passenger Train was an absolutely brilliant piece of
engineering.

I think the temperature went as low as -40° (C or F, take your pick) at
one point, but maybe I'm imagining that and it was only about -25°C.




--
athel

[Katy Jennison]

> [1] <https://wintergek.nl/winter/1981/>
> gives the obversved temperatures.
> Very cold, but not cold enough.
>

The last time I skated outdoors in England was January 2009, on Port
Meadow in Oxford. But outdoor skating hasn't, at least in my lifetime,
been the popular recreation here that it is in parts of the Netherlands.
When my mother was young and lived in Cambridge, speed skating on the
East Anglian fens happened most winters, and my mother kept her fen
runner skates all her life. Fen running is fairly rare these days.

--
Katy Jennison

[Katy Jennison]

Forgot to add that what surprised me was that it was cold enough in
England for the Broads to freeze to that extent, which was a
once-or-twice-in-a-lifetime event (it was utterly wonderful -- one could
skate for miles, literally), but that the same winter didn't produce low
enough temperatures in the Netherlands for the same thing.

--
Katy Jennison

[J. J. Lodder]

But it did. There were many long distance skating events in 1982,
but not an 'Elfstedentocht'.
As for the why:
Supposing you had been an authority with responsibility at the time,
would you have authorised 20 000 people to stand on those Broads?

Jan

FYA, in the olden days when things still froze over,
people would organise skating tours from all over Holland to Gouda,
to buy the 'Goudse stroopwafels'
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroopwafel>
(nowadays a Lonely Planet item)

They also bought the traditional Gouda clay pipes.
<https://i.pinimg.com/originals/58/01/0c/58010c9cb24441222938f3dc70988320.jpg>
The fragile clay pipes were tied to the clothing, or to the cap,
and the art was to come home with the pipe unbroken,
as proof that you hadn't fallen.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Wednesday, January 29, 2020 at 10:21:02 AM UTC-5, Katy Jennison wrote:

> The last time I skated outdoors in England was January 2009, on Port
> Meadow in Oxford. But outdoor skating hasn't, at least in my lifetime,
> been the popular recreation here that it is in parts of the Netherlands.
> When my mother was young and lived in Cambridge, speed skating on the
> East Anglian fens happened most winters, and my mother kept her fen
> runner skates all her life. Fen running is fairly rare these days.

Skating is popular but limited in Manhattan. The Rockefeller Center rink
and the Bryant Park rink (behind the New York Public Library) are
seasonally available but apparently with long waiting lines. The one
bit of philanthropy Trump ever did, while busily going bankrupt in
NYC real estate and Atlantic City casinos, was pay for the restoration
of the Wollman Rink in Central Park (and put his name on it, of course).

It has probably been more than a century since the Hudson froze over,
but there are photographs showing the clear path to the Jersey side
from the later 19th century. Which is surprising, because the Hudson
is a tidal estuary and hence salt water.

[Rich Ulrich]

On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 11:37:00 +0100, nos...@de-ster.demon.nl (J. J.

That would be an example of a "sudden adjustment"
at the end of a major ice age.

>
>> What happens with ocean currents is still a big puzzle.
>
>Not really. The 'thermo-haline circulation' is well understood.

I should have put that a tiny bit more moderately.
MUCH of what happens with ocean currents has yet
to be put into models. Data are lacking - depths,
temperatures, volume, velocity.

I was very taken with the potential for huge
climate upsets owing to currents, after I was reminded
that the lower miles of the ocean depths have waters
that are only a couple of degrees above freezing.

>
>> If the Gulf Stream stops, northern Europe will become much cooler for a
>> while.
>
>Much indeed. London will have a climate comparable
>to what is now at Spitsbergen/Svalbard.
>If it lasts we'll have another ice age.
>
>> I also like the idea that one asteroid or its fragments
>> may have been responsible for the Younger Dryas.
>
>Why? It is nonsense.

The Wikiparticle offered as evidence of asteroids the
discovery of nano-diamonds in geological boundary
layers. But my expertise is limited to my half hour of
reading, yesterday.

>But anyway, those who lived at the end of the Younger Dryas
>saw just what we are seeing now: a dramatic warming
>that is quite obvious even in a single human lifespan,
>
>Jan

...

I don't see a clear point in that statement. The /hint/
may be, It happened before, so, Why would we care?

This time, we know what is causing this one (we are)
and we have some time to minimize the damage to
civilization.

--
Rich Ulrich

[Sam Plusnet]

On 29-Jan-20 10:37, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Much indeed. London will have a climate comparable
> to what is now at Spitsbergen/Svalbard.
> If it lasts we'll have another ice age.

Leading to the need for laws like those in Longyearbyen - like a ban on
cats, a restriction on how much alcohol an individual can purchase on a
monthly basis, and a requirement that any individuals venturing outside
carry a rifle for protection against polar bears.

It's not clear how we could export our dead, or who would accept them.

--
Sam Plusnet

[J. J. Lodder]

Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:

> On 29-Jan-20 10:37, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Much indeed. London will have a climate comparable
> > to what is now at Spitsbergen/Svalbard.
> > If it lasts we'll have another ice age.
>
> Leading to the need for laws like those in Longyearbyen - like a ban on
> cats, a restriction on how much alcohol an individual can purchase on a
> monthly basis, and a requirement that any individuals venturing outside
> carry a rifle for protection against polar bears.

And the queens guards will have to change the colour
of those massive Q-tips they wear from black to white.

BTW, what do you call the things?

Jan

[Richard Heathfield]

I presume you're talking about "bearskins".

--
Richard Heathfield
Email: rjh at cpax dot org dot uk
"Usenet is a strange place" - dmr 29 July 1999
Sig line 4 vacant - apply within

[Janet]

In article <kvydncGO_OFH2K_D...@brightview.co.uk>,
n...@home.com says...

Just put your dead out in the garden and the polar bears will collect
them for disposal.

Janet

[J. J. Lodder]

Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

> On 30/01/2020 10:00, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> >
> >> On 29-Jan-20 10:37, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>> Much indeed. London will have a climate comparable
> >>> to what is now at Spitsbergen/Svalbard.
> >>> If it lasts we'll have another ice age.
> >>
> >> Leading to the need for laws like those in Longyearbyen - like a ban on
> >> cats, a restriction on how much alcohol an individual can purchase on a
> >> monthly basis, and a requirement that any individuals venturing outside
> >> carry a rifle for protection against polar bears.
> >
> > And the queens guards will have to change the colour
> > of those massive Q-tips they wear from black to white.
> >
> > BTW, what do you call the things?
>
> I presume you're talking about "bearskins".

Same word for raw material and finished product?

Jan

[Richard Heathfield]

Alas, yes. Wikipedia, using a 2007 Daily Mail article as its source,
tells us:

"Army officials say approximately 100 skins are taken every year from
the annual cull of thousands of bears by native Inuit hunters in a
Government of Canada programme to keep numbers under control."

We're also told that the hat-makers pay around £650 for each skin, that
one skin makes one hat, and that the hats last for decades if properly
maintained.

[Adam Funk]

On 2020-01-30, Sam Plusnet wrote:

> On 29-Jan-20 10:37, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> Much indeed. London will have a climate comparable
>> to what is now at Spitsbergen/Svalbard.
>> If it lasts we'll have another ice age.
>
> Leading to the need for laws like those in Longyearbyen - like a ban on
> cats, a restriction on how much alcohol an individual can purchase on a
> monthly basis, and a requirement that any individuals venturing outside
> carry a rifle for protection against polar bears.

I had to look that up, but you can't make up stuff that good.

> It's not clear how we could export our dead, or who would accept them.

"Bring out your dead!"


--
Dear Ann [Landers]: if there's an enormous rash of necrophilia that
happens in the next year because of this song, please let me know.
99.9% of the rest of us know it's a funny song! ---Alice Cooper

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2020-01-30 15:13:22 +0000, Adam Funk said:

> On 2020-01-30, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> On 29-Jan-20 10:37, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> Much indeed. London will have a climate comparable
>>> to what is now at Spitsbergen/Svalbard.
>>> If it lasts we'll have another ice age.
>>
>> Leading to the need for laws like those in Longyearbyen - like a ban on
>> cats, a restriction on how much alcohol an individual can purchase on a
>> monthly basis, and a requirement that any individuals venturing outside
>> carry a rifle for protection against polar bears.
>
> I had to look that up, but you can't make up stuff that good.

If you'd watched Fortitude you'd know most of that. (I don't remember
than ban on cats, however.)

>
>> It's not clear how we could export our dead, or who would accept them.
>
> "Bring out your dead!"


--

athel

[J. J. Lodder]

Britain is always more backward than you could have imagined.
Some ceremonial regiments with bearskin caps survive on the continent,
but they use artificial fur for their caps.

BTW, reading around taught me that those bearskin caps were functional,
long ago. They served as protection against sabre cuts from the cavalry.

Jan

[Jerry Friedman]

On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 8:20:25 AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> On 2020-01-30 15:13:22 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>
> > On 2020-01-30, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> >
> >> On 29-Jan-20 10:37, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>> Much indeed. London will have a climate comparable
> >>> to what is now at Spitsbergen/Svalbard.
> >>> If it lasts we'll have another ice age.
> >>
> >> Leading to the need for laws like those in Longyearbyen - like a ban on
> >> cats, a restriction on how much alcohol an individual can purchase on a
> >> monthly basis, and a requirement that any individuals venturing outside
> >> carry a rifle for protection against polar bears.
> >
> > I had to look that up, but you can't make up stuff that good.
>
> If you'd watched Fortitude you'd know most of that. (I don't remember
> than ban on cats, however.)

It's apparently to protect birds. You'd have to introduce Arctic-
nesting birds to Britain in order to have something to ban cats for.
(I suppose the Snow Buntings and (Rock) Ptarmigan would spread on
their own. I wonder whether the Red Grouse would go back to turning
white in winter.)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Ross]

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 3:56:49 AM UTC+13, Richard Heathfield wrote:
> On 30/01/2020 14:50, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> > Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> On 30/01/2020 10:00, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>> Sam Plusnet <n...@home.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 29-Jan-20 10:37, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >>>>> Much indeed. London will have a climate comparable
> >>>>> to what is now at Spitsbergen/Svalbard.
> >>>>> If it lasts we'll have another ice age.
> >>>>
> >>>> Leading to the need for laws like those in Longyearbyen - like a ban on
> >>>> cats, a restriction on how much alcohol an individual can purchase on a
> >>>> monthly basis, and a requirement that any individuals venturing outside
> >>>> carry a rifle for protection against polar bears.
> >>>
> >>> And the queens guards will have to change the colour
> >>> of those massive Q-tips they wear from black to white.
> >>>
> >>> BTW, what do you call the things?
> >>
> >> I presume you're talking about "bearskins".
> >
> > Same word for raw material and finished product?
>
> Alas, yes. Wikipedia, using a 2007 Daily Mail article as its source,
> tells us:
>
> "Army officials say approximately 100 skins are taken every year from
> the annual cull of thousands of bears by native Inuit hunters in a
> Government of Canada programme to keep numbers under control."

Surprising, considering that there is not much overlap between Inuit territory and the range of the black bear. Some confusion at the Daily Mail?

[Richard Heathfield]

Ah, there you take me outside my field. (Not that I'm ever *in* my field
in this group.) But confusion within the press room of a UK national
tabloid newspaper is not exactly unheard of, is it?

[Sam Plusnet]

On 30-Jan-20 15:13, Adam Funk wrote:
> On 2020-01-30, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>
>> On 29-Jan-20 10:37, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> Much indeed. London will have a climate comparable
>>> to what is now at Spitsbergen/Svalbard.
>>> If it lasts we'll have another ice age.
>>
>> Leading to the need for laws like those in Longyearbyen - like a ban on
>> cats, a restriction on how much alcohol an individual can purchase on a
>> monthly basis, and a requirement that any individuals venturing outside
>> carry a rifle for protection against polar bears.
>
> I had to look that up, but you can't make up stuff that good.
>
>> It's not clear how we could export our dead, or who would accept them.
>
> "Bring out your dead!"
>

It's often (FSVO often") said that it is illegal to die on Svalbard, but
that's not true.
There are no penalties, other than the cost of exporting the body to
mainland Norway.
Thanks to the permafrost, bodies refuse to decay and even victims of the
1918 flu epidemic are intact.


--
Sam Plusnet

[Katy Jennison]

On 30/01/2020 18:46, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>
>> On 30/01/2020 14:50, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>> Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 30/01/2020 10:00, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> And the queens guards will have to change the colour
>>>>> of those massive Q-tips they wear from black to white.
>>>>>
>>>>> BTW, what do you call the things?
>>>>
>>>> I presume you're talking about "bearskins".
>>>
>>> Same word for raw material and finished product?
>>
>> Alas, yes. Wikipedia, using a 2007 Daily Mail article as its source,
>> tells us:
>>
>> "Army officials say approximately 100 skins are taken every year from
>> the annual cull of thousands of bears by native Inuit hunters in a
>> Government of Canada programme to keep numbers under control."
>>
>> We're also told that the hat-makers pay around £650 for each skin, that
>> one skin makes one hat, and that the hats last for decades if properly
>> maintained.
>
> Britain is always more backward than you could have imagined.
> Some ceremonial regiments with bearskin caps survive on the continent,
> but they use artificial fur for their caps.
>

But if it's true that the skins are the result of a cull to keep numbers
under control, surely it's better for them to be used for headgear than
to have that headgear made out of fossil-fuel-derived synthetic material?

--
Katy Jennison

[bil...@shaw.ca]

I'm uneasy about the whole business. The reason we keep black bear
numbers down in Canada is the amount of habitat we've taken away
from them and continue to take away for human use. Similarly, we
have trophy grizzly bear hunting in British Columbia, allegedly
to keep the numbers at a reasonable level, but I think especially
because tourists will pay a lot of money to bag a trophy grizzly bear.

bill

[charles]

In article <r0vru3$bm3$1...@news.albasani.net>,

I believe that an alternative was tried out some years ago. Too heavy & too
hot.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
"I'd rather die of exhaustion than die of boredom" Thomas Carlyle

[Lewis]

Perhaps they are subbing black bear skins for polar bear skins since
polar bears are in rather dire straights?

--
"I am enclosing two tickets to the first night of my new play; bring
a friend.... if you have one." - GB Shaw to Churchill "Cannot
possibly attend first night, will attend second... if there is
one." - Winston Churchill, in response.

[Quinn C]

* bil...@shaw.ca:

> On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 4:21:27 PM UTC-8, Katy Jennison wrote:

>>> Richard Heathfield <r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Alas, yes. Wikipedia, using a 2007 Daily Mail article as its source,
>>>> tells us:
>>>>
>>>> "Army officials say approximately 100 skins are taken every year from
>>>> the annual cull of thousands of bears by native Inuit hunters in a
>>>> Government of Canada programme to keep numbers under control."

>> But if it's true that the skins are the result of a cull to keep numbers
>> under control, surely it's better for them to be used for headgear than
>> to have that headgear made out of fossil-fuel-derived synthetic material?
>>
> I'm uneasy about the whole business. The reason we keep black bear
> numbers down in Canada is the amount of habitat we've taken away
> from them and continue to take away for human use. Similarly, we
> have trophy grizzly bear hunting in British Columbia, allegedly
> to keep the numbers at a reasonable level, but I think especially
> because tourists will pay a lot of money to bag a trophy grizzly bear.

That's quite different from the hunting of deer in Europe, the reason
for which is that we removed their predators. In Germany, some people
sound the alarm bells because so few people are interested in doing the
hunting any more.

--
Just because we had a thing for 150 years, don't presume that
you know me.
-- Darla, Angel S02E09

[Jerry Friedman]

On Friday, January 31, 2020 at 3:37:00 PM UTC-7, Quinn C wrote:
> * bil...@shaw.ca:
>
> > On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 4:21:27 PM UTC-8, Katy Jennison wrote:

[Beefeaters' bearskins]

> > I'm uneasy about the whole business. The reason we keep black bear
> > numbers down in Canada is the amount of habitat we've taken away
> > from them and continue to take away for human use. Similarly, we
> > have trophy grizzly bear hunting in British Columbia, allegedly
> > to keep the numbers at a reasonable level, but I think especially
> > because tourists will pay a lot of money to bag a trophy grizzly bear.
>
> That's quite different from the hunting of deer in Europe, the reason
> for which is that we removed their predators. In Germany, some people
> sound the alarm bells because so few people are interested in doing the
> hunting any more.

I'll bet there are Americans who'd do it at their own expense. If
you put the deer in a cage, Dick Cheney would volunteer.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Peter Moylan]

If you put Dick Cheney in a cage, a lot of people would volunteer.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

So would Sarah Palin if she was allowed to do it from an aeroplane.


--
athel

[J. J. Lodder]

No doubt far to difficult for her.
She would need a helicopter,
and a very good pilot,

Jan

[Tak To]

On 1/31/2020 5:36 PM, Quinn C wrote:
> * bil...@shaw.ca:
>

>> [...]

>> I'm uneasy about the whole business. The reason we keep black bear
>> numbers down in Canada is the amount of habitat we've taken away
>> from them and continue to take away for human use. Similarly, we
>> have trophy grizzly bear hunting in British Columbia, allegedly
>> to keep the numbers at a reasonable level, but I think especially
>> because tourists will pay a lot of money to bag a trophy grizzly bear.
>
> That's quite different from the hunting of deer in Europe, the reason
> for which is that we removed their predators.

Which is the same as deer hunting in New Jersey, and probably a
lot of other places in the US as well.

Some interesting information here
https://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/deer.htm

> In Germany, some people
> sound the alarm bells because so few people are interested in doing the
> hunting any more.

Sounding the alarm bells because not enough deer are
"harvested"? I don't think we have the same problem
around here.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[Ross]

Red deer are an introduced species in New Zealand
where there are no natural predators.
They multiplied faster than recreational hunters
could shoot them, so since the 1950s the government
has employed "deer cullers" to keep the population
in check.

[Peter Moylan]

On 02/02/20 07:13, Ross wrote:
> On Sunday, February 2, 2020 at 6:20:21 AM UTC+13, Tak To wrote:
>> On 1/31/2020 5:36 PM, Quinn C wrote:
>>> * bil...@shaw.ca:
>>>
>>>> [...] I'm uneasy about the whole business. The reason we keep
>>>> black bear numbers down in Canada is the amount of habitat
>>>> we've taken away from them and continue to take away for human
>>>> use. Similarly, we have trophy grizzly bear hunting in British
>>>> Columbia, allegedly to keep the numbers at a reasonable level,
>>>> but I think especially because tourists will pay a lot of
>>>> money to bag a trophy grizzly bear.
>>>
>>> That's quite different from the hunting of deer in Europe, the
>>> reason for which is that we removed their predators.
>>
>> Which is the same as deer hunting in New Jersey, and probably a
>> lot of other places in the US as well.
>>
>> Some interesting information here
>> https://www.state.nj.us/dep/fgw/deer.htm
>>
>>> In Germany, some people sound the alarm bells because so few
>>> people are interested in doing the hunting any more.
>>
>> Sounding the alarm bells because not enough deer are "harvested"? I
>> don't think we have the same problem around here.
>

> Red deer are an introduced species in New Zealand where there are no
> natural predators. They multiplied faster than recreational hunters
> could shoot them, so since the 1950s the government has employed
> "deer cullers" to keep the population in check.

The best-known culling operations in Australia are wild horses and
kangaroos, and in both cases it's highly controversial.

The horses are descendants of farm animals that escaped into mountainous
country, where they're hard to track. Some people say that the horses
are destroying the natural vegetation. Others say that it's cruel to
kill them.

Kangaroos are present in large numbers all over the country, and farmers
hate them because they eat the grass that the cattle and sheep want. A
cull is probably necessary because their numbers keep growing, but it's
politically unpopular.

In conditions of extreme drought, as we are currently facing, there is
an extra problem, because the kangaroos come into the outskirts of
cities to find food and water. In addition, of course, there's no grass
left in the areas that have been burnt out by fire.

[Joy Beeson]

On Sat, 1 Feb 2020 12:20:13 -0500, Tak To <ta...@alum.mit.eduxx>
wrote:

> Sounding the alarm bells because not enough deer are
> "harvested"? I don't think we have the same problem
> around here.

We've got it in spades around here.

The DNR insists on conducting "deer reduction hunts" by antiquated
rules that were intended to fairly apportion a scarce resource and
leave plenty of breeders for next year, with the result that I'm not
allowed to grow tomatoes in my garden, and the woodlot at the college
has been eaten to the ground, with only large trees surviving. Not to
mention all the deer that get "harvested" with expensive automobiles,
and the people who die when a deer jumps into the road.

--
Joy Beeson, U.S.A., mostly central Hoosier,
some Northern Indiana, Upstate New York, Florida, and Hawaii
joy beeson at comcast dot net http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/
The above message is a Usenet post.

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 31-01-2020 kl. 18:18 skrev Lewis:
> Perhaps they are subbing black bear skins for polar bear skins since
> polar bears are in rather dire straights?

Oy!

/Anders, Denmark

[Peter Moylan]

Straight is the gait, and narrow is the weigh.

[Lewis]

Oops.

I will say, "Dire Straits" always makes me think of the MTV video
"Money For Nothing" so I think of it as the wrong spelling.


--
If there's a bustle in your hedgerow don't be alarmed now.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 11:57:22 GMT, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid>
wrote:

> On 02/02/20 21:53, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
>> Den 31-01-2020 kl. 18:18 skrev Lewis:
>
>>> Perhaps they are subbing black bear skins for polar bear skins since
>>> polar bears are in rather dire straights?
>>
>> Oy!
>
> Straight is the gait, and narrow is the weigh.
>

Write On!

--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[John Dunlop]

Kerr-Mudd,John:

Here, here!

--
John

[Richard Heathfield]

Wear, wear?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2020-02-02 16:28:41 +0000, Richard Heathfield said:

> On 02/02/2020 15:47, John Dunlop wrote:
>> Kerr-Mudd,John:
>>> On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 11:57:22 GMT, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 02/02/20 21:53, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
>>>>> Den 31-01-2020 kl. 18:18 skrev Lewis:
>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps they are subbing black bear skins for polar bear skins since
>>>>>> polar bears are in rather dire straights?
>>>>>
>>>>> Oy!
>>>>
>>>> Straight is the gait, and narrow is the weigh.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Write On!
>>
>> Here, here!
>
> Wear, wear?

Hear me wen I right about yore wares.


--
athel

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 2 Feb 2020 16:28:41 +0000, Richard Heathfield
<r...@cpax.org.uk> wrote:

>On 02/02/2020 15:47, John Dunlop wrote:
>> Kerr-Mudd,John:
>>> On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 11:57:22 GMT, Peter Moylan
>>> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 02/02/20 21:53, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
>>>>> Den 31-01-2020 kl. 18:18 skrev Lewis:
>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps they are subbing black bear skins for polar bear skins since
>>>>>> polar bears are in rather dire straights?
>>>>>
>>>>> Oy!
>>>>
>>>> Straight is the gait, and narrow is the weigh.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Write On!
>>
>> Here, here!
>
>Wear, wear?

Their, their!
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Richard Heathfield]

I know, I know, "LOL" is *so* late-1990s... but I really did LOL.

[Peter Young]

Or even Hear, hear! I think this point has been made before.

Peter.

--
Peter Young, (BrE, RP), Consultant Anaesthetist, 1975-2004.
(US equivalent: Certified Anesthesiologist) (AUE Hg)
Cheltenham and Gloucester, UK. Now happily retired.
http://pnyoung.orpheusweb.co.uk

[John Dunlop]

Peter Young:

> On 2 Feb 2020 John Dunlop <dunlo...@ymail.com> wrote:
>
>> Kerr-Mudd,John:
>>> On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 11:57:22 GMT, Peter Moylan <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 02/02/20 21:53, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
>>>>> Den 31-01-2020 kl. 18:18 skrev Lewis:
>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps they are subbing black bear skins for polar bear skins since
>>>>>> polar bears are in rather dire straights?
>>>>>
>>>>> Oy!
>>>>
>>>> Straight is the gait, and narrow is the weigh.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Write On!
>
>> Here, here!
>
> Or even Hear, hear! I think this point has been made before.

When you write, you're right.

--
John

[Janet]

In article <r16tbq$l6g$1...@dont-email.me>, r...@cpax.org.uk says...

>
> On 02/02/2020 15:47, John Dunlop wrote:
> > Kerr-Mudd,John:
> >> On Sun, 02 Feb 2020 11:57:22 GMT, Peter Moylan
> >> <pe...@pmoylan.org.invalid>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 02/02/20 21:53, Anders D. Nygaard wrote:
> >>>> Den 31-01-2020 kl. 18:18 skrev Lewis:
> >>>
> >>>>> Perhaps they are subbing black bear skins for polar bear skins since
> >>>>> polar bears are in rather dire straights?
> >>>>
> >>>> Oy!
> >>>
> >>> Straight is the gait, and narrow is the weigh.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Write On!
> >
> > Here, here!
>
> Wear, wear?

Over their.

Janet

[Mack A. Damia]

We'll be over, we're coming over,
And we won't come back till it's over, over there.

[bil...@shaw.ca]

Under where?

bill

[Peter Moylan]

Semper ubi sub ubi.

[Janet]

In article <f4d1ca05-fb3b-4e69...@googlegroups.com>,
bil...@shaw.ca says...

Nix

Janet

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

(Good one!)
This thread is pants.

[RH Draney]

But far from brief, as we jockey for position....r

[Adam Funk]

On 2020-01-30, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 8:20:25 AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
>> On 2020-01-30 15:13:22 +0000, Adam Funk said:
>>
>> > On 2020-01-30, Sam Plusnet wrote:
>> >
>> >> On 29-Jan-20 10:37, J. J. Lodder wrote:
>> >>> Much indeed. London will have a climate comparable
>> >>> to what is now at Spitsbergen/Svalbard.
>> >>> If it lasts we'll have another ice age.
>> >>
>> >> Leading to the need for laws like those in Longyearbyen - like a ban on
>> >> cats, a restriction on how much alcohol an individual can purchase on a
>> >> monthly basis, and a requirement that any individuals venturing outside
>> >> carry a rifle for protection against polar bears.
>> >
>> > I had to look that up, but you can't make up stuff that good.
>>
>> If you'd watched Fortitude you'd know most of that. (I don't remember
>> than ban on cats, however.)
>
> It's apparently to protect birds. You'd have to introduce Arctic-
> nesting birds to Britain in order to have something to ban cats for.
> (I suppose the Snow Buntings and (Rock) Ptarmigan would spread on
> their own. I wonder whether the Red Grouse would go back to turning
> white in winter.)

Why are Arctic birds at a greater risk from cats than other kinds of
birds? (ISTR that bird-lovers in the UK already complain about cats.)


--
...the reason why so many professional artists drink a lot is not
necessarily very much to do with the artistic temperament, etc. It is
simply that they can afford to, because they can normally take a large
part of a day off to deal with the ravages. ---Amis _On Drink_

[John Varela]

On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 11:56:33 UTC, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
wrote:

> On 2020-01-30, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>
> > On Thursday, January 30, 2020 at 8:20:25 AM UTC-7, Athel Cornish-Bowden wrote:
> >> On 2020-01-30 15:13:22 +0000, Adam Funk said:
> >>
> >> > On 2020-01-30, Sam Plusnet wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> On 29-Jan-20 10:37, J. J. Lodder wrote:
> >> >>> Much indeed. London will have a climate comparable
> >> >>> to what is now at Spitsbergen/Svalbard.
> >> >>> If it lasts we'll have another ice age.
> >> >>
> >> >> Leading to the need for laws like those in Longyearbyen - like a ban on
> >> >> cats, a restriction on how much alcohol an individual can purchase on a
> >> >> monthly basis, and a requirement that any individuals venturing outside
> >> >> carry a rifle for protection against polar bears.
> >> >
> >> > I had to look that up, but you can't make up stuff that good.
> >>
> >> If you'd watched Fortitude you'd know most of that. (I don't remember
> >> than ban on cats, however.)
> >
> > It's apparently to protect birds. You'd have to introduce Arctic-
> > nesting birds to Britain in order to have something to ban cats for.
> > (I suppose the Snow Buntings and (Rock) Ptarmigan would spread on
> > their own. I wonder whether the Red Grouse would go back to turning
> > white in winter.)
>
> Why are Arctic birds at a greater risk from cats than other kinds of
> birds? (ISTR that bird-lovers in the UK already complain about cats.)

Because they nest on the ground and have no undergrowth to hide in?

--
John Varela

[Adam Funk]

That makes sense; thanks.


--
For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public
relations, for nature cannot be fooled. –--Richard P. Feynman

[Jerry Friedman]

And evolved in the absence of nest-robbing carnivores for quite a long
time. Cats are a severe problem for birds on many islands.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Ross]

Depends where you're talking about. "Animal Babies:
First Year on Earth" has been featuring a family of
Arctic foxes, which take a keen interest in birds, even those nesting on sea cliffs.

>Cats are a severe problem for birds on many islands.

Including New Zealand. A cat is traditionally considered personally responsible for one species extinction
(Stephens Island Wren, 1890s) -- though like many good
stories this seems to be no longer true.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyall%27s_wren

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Maybe they should release some (neutered) cats on the island of South Georgia.


--
athel

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Over-run by penguins? Maybe Batman could help.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

mice

> Maybe Batman could help.


--

athel

[Jerry Friedman]

Yes, I was thinking of island-nesting birds, for no good reason.

> >Cats are a severe problem for birds on many islands.
>
> Including New Zealand. A cat is traditionally considered personally responsible for one species extinction
> (Stephens Island Wren, 1890s) -- though like many good
> stories this seems to be no longer true.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyall%27s_wren

Thanks, I'd only seen the one-cat version of the story, but apparently
there were scores.

--
Jerry Friedman

[Ross]

These foxes were in northernmost Iceland, but it seems
there are foxes in Spitzbergen/Svalbard too.

[Richard Heathfield]

On 06/02/2020 19:24, Ross wrote:
> On Friday, February 7, 2020 at 6:39:33 AM UTC+13, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>> On Wednesday, February 5, 2020 at 4:10:28 PM UTC-7, Ross wrote:
>>> On Thursday, February 6, 2020 at 11:40:55 AM UTC+13, Jerry Friedman wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, February 4, 2020 at 10:15:47 AM UTC-7, John Varela wrote:
>>>>> On Tue, 4 Feb 2020 11:56:33 UTC, Adam Funk <a24...@ducksburg.com>
>>>>> wrote:

<snip>

>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why are Arctic birds at a greater risk from cats than other kinds of
>>>>>> birds? (ISTR that bird-lovers in the UK already complain about cats.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Because they nest on the ground and have no undergrowth to hide in?
>>>>
>>>> And evolved in the absence of nest-robbing carnivores for quite a long
>>>> time.
>>>
>>> Depends where you're talking about. "Animal Babies:
>>> First Year on Earth" has been featuring a family of
>>> Arctic foxes, which take a keen interest in birds, even those nesting on sea cliffs.
>>
>> Yes, I was thinking of island-nesting birds, for no good reason.
>
> These foxes were in northernmost Iceland, but it seems
> there are foxes in Spitzbergen/Svalbard too.
>
>>>> Cats are a severe problem for birds on many islands.
>>>
>>> Including New Zealand. A cat is traditionally considered personally responsible for one species extinction
>>> (Stephens Island Wren, 1890s) -- though like many good
>>> stories this seems to be no longer true.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyall%27s_wren
>>
>> Thanks, I'd only seen the one-cat version of the story, but apparently
>> there were scores.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

<crunch>

15-0.

<munch>

30-0.

<crunch>

40-0.

<lunch>

Game. Cats lead Lyall's wrens by one game to love in the first set.
Lyall's wrens to serve.

[Jerry Friedman]

...

In that case the birds on Svalbard must somehow be able to manage
with foxes but not cats.

(An Arctic Fox tracked by satellite made it from Svalbard to
Ellesmere Island via Greenland in 76 days. This may not be possible
much longer.

https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/ecology/2019/06/arctic-fox-across-polar-ice-makes-record-run-svalbard-canada-25-month

)

--
Jerry Friedman

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Den 30-01-2020 kl. 19:46 skrev J. J. Lodder:
> Britain is always more backward than you could have imagined.
> Some ceremonial regiments with bearskin caps survive on the continent,
> but they use artificial fur for their caps.

In this case, Britain is less backwards than Denmark - Britain
seems to have changed to use artificial fur already in 2008.
At that time changing away from Canadian black bears to the tune
of one bear per hat was vehemently opposed by the Danish court.

I have not been able to find any indication that they have
changed position since then.

/Anders, Denmark.

[Snidely]

Wednesday, Paul Carmichael quipped:
> On 28/01/2020 10:47, snide...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Monday, January 27, 2020 at 11:36:59 PM UTC-8, Spains Harden wrote:
>>
>>> Electric cars halve emissions in our cities. But what about the
>>> Chinese cities where the batteries are being produced? With only a
>>> two year lifespan? Is there really any net gain?
>>
>> And the Arizona and Brandenberg factories, don't forget.
>>
>> I've seen something of a recent analysis that yes, there is a net gain
>> with EVs, even with battery production.
>> [I will indeed be looking for the cite; but I didn't find it tonight
>> in limited searching]
>>
>> And the the two year lifespan is being attacked
>> with both new battery technologies and improvements to existing batteries.
>> Tesla feels that the million-mile battery is within reach.
>
> The bank of lead-acid batteries in my loft cost me 8000 euros 4 years ago.
> They're showing signs of impending death already.
>
> I am not happy.

Lead-acid is not cutting edge. It's cheap per pound, but the price per
charge is not cheap because the charge density is low.

/dps


--
"I'm glad unicorns don't ever need upgrades."
"We are as up as it is possible to get graded!"
_Phoebe and Her Unicorn_, 2016.05.15