Coffee culture

[Peter T. Daniels]

This afternoon I came across this passage by Umberto Eco:

"Consider these two sentences, one from an Italian novel, the other from an
American one. 'Ordinai un caffé, lo buttai giù in un secondo ed uscii dal bar'
(literally, 'I ordered a coffee, swilled it down in a second and went out of
the bar'); and 'He spent half an hour with the cup in his hands, sipping his
coffee and thinking of Mary.' The first sentence can only refer to an Italian
coffee and to an Italian bar, since an American coffee cannot be swallowed in
a second both because of its quantity and of its temperature. The second
sentence cannot refer to an Italian subject (at least to an average one
drinking an average espresso) because it presupposes a large cup containing
what seems like gallons of coffee."

(*Experiences in Translation* [1998], trans. Alastair McEwen [2001], p. 18)

[arth...@yahoo.com]

Very interesting.
I like it that you have mentioned the name of the translator of the book! You have even given the dates for the original and the translation. Very nice!

I once saw a very old discarded TV set sitting on the sidewalk. Two young girls were walking by. They stopped and started 'examining' the set.
One of them exclaimed: 'Look! All the buttons that are supposed to be on the remote control are on the set!'

A day will come that someone will read the sentence:
I entered the restaurant, sat at an empty table and lit up a cigarette.
and they will think the 'I' in question wanted to be kicked out.

A footnote would be in order: In those days, people could smoke in restaurants.

My point is that translation occurs not only across languages but also along temporal lines...

But I have been drinking again and am probably rambling...

Respectfully,
Navi.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, March 25, 2016 at 9:14:29 AM UTC-4, arth...@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Thursday, March 24, 2016 at 9:04:11 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > This afternoon I came across this passage by Umberto Eco:
> >
> > "Consider these two sentences, one from an Italian novel, the other from an
> > American one. 'Ordinai un caffé, lo buttai giù in un secondo ed uscii dal bar'
> > (literally, 'I ordered a coffee, swilled it down in a second and went out of
> > the bar'); and 'He spent half an hour with the cup in his hands, sipping his
> > coffee and thinking of Mary.' The first sentence can only refer to an Italian
> > coffee and to an Italian bar, since an American coffee cannot be swallowed in
> > a second both because of its quantity and of its temperature. The second
> > sentence cannot refer to an Italian subject (at least to an average one
> > drinking an average espresso) because it presupposes a large cup containing
> > what seems like gallons of coffee."
> >
> > (*Experiences in Translation* [1998], trans. Alastair McEwen [2001], p. 18)
>
> Very interesting.
> I like it that you have mentioned the name of the translator of the book! You have even given the dates for the original and the translation. Very nice!

It seemed appropriate in a book about translation. It originated as a lecture
series at the University of Toronto, though he doesn't say what language he
spoke in.

> I once saw a very old discarded TV set sitting on the sidewalk. Two young girls were walking by. They stopped and started 'examining' the set.
> One of them exclaimed: 'Look! All the buttons that are supposed to be on the remote control are on the set!'
>
> A day will come that someone will read the sentence:
> I entered the restaurant, sat at an empty table and lit up a cigarette.
> and they will think the 'I' in question wanted to be kicked out.
>
> A footnote would be in order: In those days, people could smoke in restaurants.
>
> My point is that translation occurs not only across languages but also along temporal lines...

Then you'll probably want to read Eco's essay.

What struck me most was the revelation that espresso is not drunk hot. And I
hope Europeans don't think that American coffee cups are typically the giant
ones seen in the coffee house Central Perk on *Friends*.

[Katy Jennison]

Ah, no, it's not that espresso isn't drunk hot: it's simply that it's
such a small volume that even if you pick up and drain the cup directly
it's put in front of you, it's no longer hot enough to burn and scald.
It's still hot, though. It's very conveniently at a comfortable
drink-immediately temperature.

That's a single espresso, which is the default all over Italy if you
order un caffé. If you ask for a double espresso (un caffé doppio), you
might have to wait another 5-10 seconds or so.

--
Katy Jennison

[Robert Bannister]

Seems like nonsense to me. The first sentence could describe an action
that could take place anywhere at all. The second, assuming the thinking
of Mary consumes all the character's attention, does not rule out the
coffee being quite cold and nasty by the end, so once again, it could
take place in any country.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Dr. HotSalt]

On Thursday, March 24, 2016 at 9:04:11 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:

I agree with his assessment of the first sentence. I've been in not a few U. S. bars (not that I'm a barfly, but I am in my 60's and why not?), and not all of them served coffee, and of those that did, I wouldn't try to swill down what they served in a second.

As for the second sentence, alcoholic drinks aren't the only kind that can be nursed if one's in that mood. Of course, if it were tea, I'd assume the drinker was an Englishman.


Dr. HotSalt

[Unknown]

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Friday, March 25, 2016 at 9:14:29 AM UTC-4, arth...@yahoo.com
> wrote:
> > On Thursday, March 24, 2016 at 9:04:11 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels
> > wrote:
>
> > > This afternoon I came across this passage by Umberto Eco:
> > >
> > > "Consider these two sentences, one from an Italian novel, the

> > > other from an American one. 'Ordinai un caffé, lo buttai giů in

It certainly is served hot. If you want a cold one they pour it over
ice. Chugging a whole cup - even a single - straight from the machine
would be at the very least, uncomfortable. I think we have to allow for
the possibility that this was a figurative second.

DC

--

[arth...@yahoo.com]

I went to Italy about 15 years ago. I was surprised to see how little coffee one cup contained. I was used to French coffees. I do not remember how hot the Italian one was. I don't remember getting burnt, but I suppose I proceeded carefully.

The first time I went to a Starbucks I was shocked by how big the cups were. I thought the waitor had made a mistake and was giving me soup!

I will probably read Eco's book one of these days.


Here's a song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdupU80HMss

I've always thought it is alluding to the coffee... Something you make fast...

Respectfully,
Navi.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

or a Russian, or a Chinese, or a Chilean, or a Japanese. The English
aren't the only ones who drink tea.

> --
athel

[Dr. HotSalt]

True, but how many of them would be mooning over a woman named Mary?


Dr. HotSalt

[Unknown]

Eco, of course, has a good point to make, though I'm not sure he's
chosen the best example to make it with.

What the translator does have to keep in mind, I suppose, is what the
reader visualises. If you just ask for a coffee in a bar in Italy, what
you get as the default is what English-speakers would call an espresso,
and it's that which the reader needs to picture here.

In fact I'm not sure I've ever even heard the word 'espresso' used in
Italy; if in a bar you wanted to state that what you wanted was a
bog-standard espresso (maybe because you companions were having
cappucinos), you'd usually ask for a 'caffe normale'.

So for the translator to get the right picture to a non-Italian reader
it's going to have to be 'I ordered *an* *espresso*, swilled it down in
a second and went out of the bar'. Hmm... Maybe for the Italian
translator the other example has to be 'he spent half an hour with
the cup in his hands, sipping his Americano and thinking of Mary.' Or
not...

Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a common
culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what is the
default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?' (Please let's not go down
the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you get in
a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without milk? In the UK
you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your coffee
black...


DC, due to spend five weeks in the Veneto from mid-April.

--

[Jack Campin]

> Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a common
> culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what is the
> default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?' (Please let's not go down
> the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you get in
> a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without milk? In the UK
> you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your coffee
> black...

And if you do order it black, you are quite likely to get a little
jug of milk to go with it. What kind of customer would ever use that?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile 07800 739 557 <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Peter T. Daniels]

They'd think you were a Brit. In American it would be either "Coffee,
please," or "A cup of coffee, please," or "Some coffee,
please." (Any of
them may be preceded by "I'd like ....") I.e., "coffee" doesn't cease
being a mass noun when apportioned into portions.

> (Please let's not go down
> the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you get in
> a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without milk?

I haven't seen "filter coffee" in many years. As has often been discussed
here, whether milk counts as "regular" varies regionally.

> In the UK
> you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your coffee
> black...

Do they put it in for you????

If we want cream in our coffee and they're pouring (as at a fast-food
counter), we specify how much: dark, regular, light.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 6:54:57 AM UTC-4, Jack Campin wrote:
> > Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a common
> > culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what is the
> > default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?' (Please let's not go down
> > the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you get in
> > a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without milk? In the UK
> > you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your coffee
> > black...
>
> And if you do order it black, you are quite likely to get a little
> jug of milk to go with it. What kind of customer would ever use that?

??? How many decades old is your experience???

Why would the place waste resources on someone who didn't request it
and wasn't paying for it?

[GordonD]

"I'd like a..." isn't particularly common in my experience; most people
including me say what you describe as American. However I've noticed
that "Could I get a..." is taking over, especially amongst younger folk.

--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

[Jack Campin]

>>> In the UK you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask
>>> for your coffee black...
>> And if you do order it black, you are quite likely to get a little
>> jug of milk to go with it. What kind of customer would ever use that?
> ??? How many decades old is your experience???
> Why would the place waste resources on someone who didn't request it
> and wasn't paying for it?

I've no idea why they do it, but I go into a lot of coffee bars
(though not the big chains) and it nearly always happens if you
get table service. I've encountered it within the last week.

Maybe somebody Taylorized the process and figured that it was
cheaper to provide milk that wasn't used than spend the extra
labour time on the situations where it was requested after the
initial service.

BTW if you ask a British person "do you take anything in your tea?"
the commonest answer is "no, just milk". Only somebody like me
who finds milk about as appealing as iguana urine ever notices
anything odd in that response.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 9:59:50 AM UTC-4, Jack Campin wrote:

> >>> In the UK you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask
> >>> for your coffee black...
> >> And if you do order it black, you are quite likely to get a little
> >> jug of milk to go with it. What kind of customer would ever use that?
> > ??? How many decades old is your experience???
> > Why would the place waste resources on someone who didn't request it
> > and wasn't paying for it?
>
> I've no idea why they do it, but I go into a lot of coffee bars
> (though not the big chains) and it nearly always happens if you
> get table service. I've encountered it within the last week.

Oh -- I thought you were responding to the previous poster's (whose identity
you have eliminated) description of service in the US, since that's where
you added your comment.

BTW we don't generally have "coffee bars" (no one calls Starbucks that),
but "coffee houses" if you must (but that conjures up images of beatniks
or of hipsters (depending on the generation).

Which is why some Americans here were misled by Eco's mention of ordering
a coffee in a bar.

> Maybe somebody Taylorized the process and figured that it was
> cheaper to provide milk that wasn't used than spend the extra
> labour time on the situations where it was requested after the
> initial service.
>
> BTW if you ask a British person "do you take anything in your tea?"
> the commonest answer is "no, just milk". Only somebody like me
> who finds milk about as appealing as iguana urine ever notices
> anything odd in that response.

ISTR they were unfamilar with the use of lemon.

[Unknown]

> > reader it's going to have to be 'I ordered an espresso, swilled it

> > down in a second and went out of the bar'. Hmm... Maybe for the
> > Italian translator the other example has to be 'he spent half an
> > hour with the cup in his hands, sipping his Americano and thinking
> > of Mary.' Or not...
> >
> > Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a common
> > culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what is the
> > default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?'
>
> They'd think you were a Brit. In American it would be either "Coffee,
> please," or "A cup of coffee, please," or "Some coffee,
> please." (Any of
> them may be preceded by "I'd like ....") I.e., "coffee" doesn't cease
> being a mass noun when apportioned into portions.

Really???? You can't say 'I'll have a coffee'???

Can you say 'I'll have a beer'?

Weird.

>
> > (Please let's not go down
> > the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you
> > get in a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without milk?
>
> I haven't seen "filter coffee" in many years. As has often been
> discussed here, whether milk counts as "regular" varies regionally.
>
> > In the UK
> > you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your coffee
> > black...
>
> Do they put it in for you????

Absolutely.

DC


--

[Unknown]

> > > reader it's going to have to be 'I ordered an espresso, swilled

> > > it down in a second and went out of the bar'. Hmm... Maybe for
> > > the Italian translator the other example has to be 'he spent half
> > > an hour with the cup in his hands, sipping his Americano and
> > > thinking of Mary.' Or not...
> > >
> > > Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a
> > > common culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what
> > > is the default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?'
> >
> > They'd think you were a Brit. In American it would be either
> > "Coffee, please," or "A cup of coffee, please," or "Some coffee,
> > please." (Any of
> > them may be preceded by "I'd like ....") I.e., "coffee" doesn't
> > cease being a mass noun when apportioned into portions.
>
> "I'd like a..." isn't particularly common in my experience; most
> people including me say what you describe as American. However I've
> noticed that "Could I get a..." is taking over, especially amongst
> younger folk.

As sometimes happens, I remember the first time I ever heard that, and
it was in Edinburgh, sometime in the early 2000s. Is the Potter Roll
sandwich bar still in Potter Row? The guy in front of me asked if he
could 'get' a coffee (in fact, probably a latte...)

DC

--

[LFS]

Daughter started using the expression after returning from a year in
Australia. The first time I heard her say it I was considerably puzzled
and pointed out that she didn't have to get anything, the waiter would
bring it to her.


--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[Tak To]

That is why the result is best when one translates *into* his/her
native language/culture.

> Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a common
> culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what is the
> default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?' (Please let's not go down
> the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you get in
> a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without milk?

You probably meant "drip/dripped coffee" (as opposed to
"percolated", etc).

I think Americans would call it "cream", even though it is
probably half-and-half (~10% butter fat) these days. Decades ago
it might have been light cream (~20%). "Milk" was an odd
choice back then but is more common now.

Drinking habits change. These days, if one asks for a coffee,
it is more likely than not that the server will ask back "How
do you like it?". However, "regular" still means "cream and
sugar". If the server does not ask, one would get a cup of
black coffee with cream and sugar (sugar assortments) on the
side.

> In the UK
> you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your coffee
> black...

In Am, tea is almost always served with everything on the side.
Sometimes tea itself is one the side in the form of a tea bag,
and water can be on the side in a small karafe. If the server
asks at all these days, is typically about what kind of tea --
"green tea" being a major variant. Cream and sugar is usually
supplied by default, but lemon one has to ask for specifically.

--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ta...@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr

[GordonD]

On 27/03/2016 15:53, Django Cat wrote:

Not that I'm aware of. In the street, or part of the Student Union
building? That's currently being redeveloped.

[Tony Cooper]

I never cease to be appalled at the things said here that are supposed
to be the way things are said or done here. They are the result of
swinging a cat in an arc smaller than old man's urine flow in the
first dribble of the morning.

You can order coffee in any restaurant by simply saying "Coffee.". You
can add words from ", please" to "with cream and sugar", but the
single word will suffice.

Sometimes just a nod of the head will result in getting coffee. At a
restaurant, the waiter may appear and say "Coffee?". You nod and you
get coffee.

At a place like Starbucks, at least two words are required: size and
type. "Coffee, small" works because the default of "coffee" is
regular coffee and "small" (though non-existent) indicates the
smallest cup sold by whatever name.

--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Peter T. Daniels]

Well _I_ don't say that, but I imagine it's because beer generally comes in
countable form -- a bottle or can. At a bar with friends you ask for "a pitcher."

> Weird.
>
> > > (Please let's not go down
> > > the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you
> > > get in a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without milk?
> > I haven't seen "filter coffee" in many years. As has often been
> > discussed here, whether milk counts as "regular" varies regionally.
> > > In the UK
> > > you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your coffee
> > > black...
> > Do they put it in for you????
>
> Absolutely.

And, being Brits, you wouldn't _consider_ complaining if they put in too much
(too little is, presumably, reparable, but again you'd have to utter a
criticism of the server).

[Peter T. Daniels]

> [autobiographical double obscenity].

>
> You can order coffee in any restaurant by simply saying "Coffee.". You
> can add words from ", please" to "with cream and sugar", but the
> single word will suffice.

It's bizarre that you claim to be "appalled" by my giving as the first
alternative the version you supply. It doesn't surprise me in the least,
though, that you consider "please" to be optional.

> Sometimes just a nod of the head will result in getting coffee. At a
> restaurant, the waiter may appear and say "Coffee?". You nod and you
> get coffee.

Is it Indiana or Florida that taught you not to say "please"? Surely it
wasn't your parents.

[Katy Jennison]

This really is regional. Your average barista in your average
south-of-England coffee bar would certainly not add milk to your coffee
unless you asked for it. And even in the relatively few places which
serve Cona coffee you'd still be asked if you wanted milk.

If you order an Americano in a coffee bar you're likely to be asked if
you want milk with it, too, but even if you say yes you'd probably get
it in a small jug so that you can add it to your taste.

--
Katy Jennison

[Unknown]

Looking on the map, I think the place I'm thinking of was actually on
Nicholson Square - I worked for the University's Institute for Applied
Language Studies, in Hill Place.

DC

--

[Unknown]

Loving that.

DC



--

[Unknown]

> Well I don't say that, but I imagine it's because beer generally

> comes in countable form -- a bottle or can. At a bar with friends you
> ask for "a pitcher."

So, you can't say it when there's draught beer? (On tap). Like the
excellent San Francisco Steam Beer...

Meanwhile, coffee comes in cups. Or mugs. Or cafetieres.

>
> > Weird.
> >
> > > > (Please let's not go down
> > > > the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you
> > > > get in a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without
> > > > milk?
> > > I haven't seen "filter coffee" in many years. As has often been
> > > discussed here, whether milk counts as "regular" varies
> > > regionally.
> > > > In the UK
> > > > you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your
> > > > coffee black...
> > > Do they put it in for you????
> >
> > Absolutely.
>

> And, being Brits, you wouldn't consider complaining if they put in

> too much (too little is, presumably, reparable, but again you'd have
> to utter a criticism of the server).

They always put in exactly the correct amount.

Can you say "I'll have a cake"?

DC

--

[Unknown]

Katy Jennison wrote:

> On 27/03/2016 18:39, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 10:51:18 AM UTC-4,
> > nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
> > > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 5:22:23 AM UTC-4,
> > > > nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
>
> > > > > Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a
> > > > > common culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but
> > > > > what is the default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?'
> > > > They'd think you were a Brit. In American it would be either
> > > > "Coffee, please," or "A cup of coffee, please," or "Some
> > > > coffee, please." (Any of them may be preceded by "I'd like
> > > > ....") I.e., "coffee" doesn't cease being a mass noun when
> > > > apportioned into portions.
> > >
> > > Really???? You can't say 'I'll have a coffee'???
> > >
> > > Can you say 'I'll have a beer'?
> >

> > Well I don't say that, but I imagine it's because beer generally

> > comes in countable form -- a bottle or can. At a bar with friends
> > you ask for "a pitcher."
> >
> > > Weird.
> > >
> > > > > (Please let's not go down
> > > > > the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what
> > > > > you get in a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or
> > > > > without milk?
> > > > I haven't seen "filter coffee" in many years. As has often been
> > > > discussed here, whether milk counts as "regular" varies
> > > > regionally.
> > > > > In the UK
> > > > > you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your
> > > > > coffee black...
> > > > Do they put it in for you????
> > >
> > > Absolutely.
> >

> > And, being Brits, you wouldn't consider complaining if they put in

> > too much (too little is, presumably, reparable, but again you'd
> > have to utter a criticism of the server).
> >
>
> This really is regional. Your average barista in your average
> south-of-England coffee bar would certainly not add milk to your
> coffee unless you asked for it. And even in the relatively few
> places which serve Cona coffee you'd still be asked if you wanted
> milk.
>

Do you think so? I'm specifically thinking of caffs rather than
Starbucks, Coasta and other of that ilk.

But let's find out - I suggest we each put it to the test over the next
couple of weeks and get back!

DC


--

[Unknown]

> > reader it's going to have to be 'I ordered an espresso, swilled it

> > down in a second and went out of the bar'. Hmm... Maybe for the
> > Italian translator the other example has to be 'he spent half an
> > hour with the cup in his hands, sipping his Americano and thinking
> > of Mary.' Or not...
>

> That is why the result is best when one translates into his/her

> native language/culture.
>
> > Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a common
> > culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what is the
> > default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?' (Please let's not go
> > down the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what
> > you get in a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without
> > milk?
>
> You probably meant "drip/dripped coffee" (as opposed to
> "percolated", etc).

I mean filter coffee. I have no idea what "drip/dripped coffee" is.
Maybe you're telling me 'filter coffee' isn't a term used wherever it
is you live.

>
> I think Americans would call it "cream",

Sorry - what?

> even though it is
> probably half-and-half (~10% butter fat) these days. Decades ago
> it might have been light cream (~20%). "Milk" was an odd
> choice back then but is more common now.
>
> Drinking habits change. These days, if one asks for a coffee,
> it is more likely than not that the server will ask back "How
> do you like it?". However, "regular" still means "cream and
> sugar". If the server does not ask, one would get a cup of
> black coffee with cream and sugar (sugar assortments) on the
> side.
>
> > In the UK
> > you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your coffee
> > black...
>
> In Am, tea is almost always served with everything on the side.
> Sometimes tea itself is one the side in the form of a tea bag,
> and water can be on the side in a small karafe. If the server
> asks at all these days, is typically about what kind of tea --
> "green tea" being a major variant. Cream and sugar is usually
> supplied by default, but lemon one has to ask for specifically.

This is clearly going to come as a surprise, but we do drink coffee in
the UK, and it was coffee we were talking about. The distressing thing
about ordering tea in the US is when they come back and show you a tray
of infusions and say 'we have raspberry, camomile or mint'.

No, love, when we say we want tea, we mean tea.

DC

--

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 27 Mar 2016 21:27:26 +0100, "Django Cat" <> wrote:

>> You probably meant "drip/dripped coffee" (as opposed to
>> "percolated", etc).
>
>I mean filter coffee. I have no idea what "drip/dripped coffee" is.
>Maybe you're telling me 'filter coffee' isn't a term used wherever it
>is you live.

I'm not sure what "filter coffee" is. Our coffee maker at home uses
paper filters, but I wouldn't call it "filter coffee". The word
"filter" seems extraneous because most coffee-making devices use a
filter of some sort. The ground coffee is placed in a paper filter
and the hot water flows over the ground coffee into the container
below.

The exception is a "French Press" that does not include a paper
filter, but does have a mesh plate that acts as a filter to keep the
grounds out of the coffee. We have one, but it's only used to brew an
extra cup or two when it's not practical to fire up the regular
coffee-maker.

[Lewis]

In message <ljggfbt1t8i3kqd0g...@4ax.com>

Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2016 21:27:26 +0100, "Django Cat" <> wrote:

>>> You probably meant "drip/dripped coffee" (as opposed to
>>> "percolated", etc).
>>
>>I mean filter coffee. I have no idea what "drip/dripped coffee" is.
>>Maybe you're telling me 'filter coffee' isn't a term used wherever it
>>is you live.

> I'm not sure what "filter coffee" is. Our coffee maker at home uses
> paper filters, but I wouldn't call it "filter coffee". The word
> "filter" seems extraneous because most coffee-making devices use a
> filter of some sort. The ground coffee is placed in a paper filter
> and the hot water flows over the ground coffee into the container
> below.

That is how many "drip" coffee makers make coffee, but in other parts of
the word, coffee is made with an espresso machine, not filter or
dripping involved.

> The exception is a "French Press" that does not include a paper
> filter, but does have a mesh plate that acts as a filter to keep the
> grounds out of the coffee. We have one, but it's only used to brew an
> extra cup or two when it's not practical to fire up the regular
> coffee-maker.

You can also boil coffee in a pot on the stove (or camp fire) and then
use a binder to grab the grounds (an egg, for example) if you like. Or
you can use a percolator, which boils the water forcing it up a metal
tube to then soak the coffee grounds, as this process continues the
coffee/water is sent up over and over through the grounds.

Campfire coffee is quite good, and very different from your usual drip
or percolated coffee.

--
Hello Diane, I'm Bucky Goldstein

[charles]

In article <slrnnfgjp0....@amelia.local>,

but not the same as Camp coffee ;-)

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[Janet]

In article <nd99eq$gni$1...@news.albasani.net>, ka...@spamtrap.kjennison.com
says...

I can't even remember the last time I was served coffee with milk
already in it. Maybe last century :-)

Janet

[Katy Jennison]

The trouble with that is that my coffee of preference is espresso. I'd
have to pay for a lot of cups of coffee which I'd rather not drink. I
could try to remember to notice what happens when other people get
coffee, though.

--
Katy Jennison

[GordonD]

Not there any longer. There are a couple of cafés and a surprising
number of Halal meat shops, but no sandwich shop by any name.

[GordonD]

On 27/03/2016 21:18, Django Cat wrote:

You're likely to be given a tub or two of UHT milk.

[GordonD]

In the UK asking for "a beer" is likely to get a strange look from the
barman and the response, "Which kind?"

[Jerry Friedman]

On 3/27/16 2:15 PM, Django Cat wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
>> On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 10:51:18 AM UTC-4,
>> nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 5:22:23 AM UTC-4,
>>>> nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
...

>>>>> Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a
>>>>> common culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but
>>>>> what is the default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?'
>>>> They'd think you were a Brit. In American it would be either
>>>> "Coffee, please," or "A cup of coffee, please," or "Some coffee,
>>>> please." (Any of them may be preceded by "I'd like ....") I.e.,
>>>> "coffee" doesn't cease being a mass noun when apportioned into
>>>> portions.
>>>
>>> Really???? You can't say 'I'll have a coffee'???
>>>
>>> Can you say 'I'll have a beer'?
>>
>> Well I don't say that, but I imagine it's because beer generally
>> comes in countable form -- a bottle or can. At a bar with friends you
>> ask for "a pitcher."
>
> So, you can't say it when there's draught beer? (On tap). Like the
> excellent San Francisco Steam Beer...

...

You can. So I've heard.

COCA results, where [get] includes gets, getting, got, gotten:

[get] a coffee: 42
[get] some coffee: 77
[get] a cup of coffee: 112
[get] coffee: 134

Most of the 28 hits for just plain "get a coffee" were relevant, but
there was one "get a coffee service". I checked the first hit to see
whether it was from an American. Yes, Mike Aubrey, American real-estate
agent and TV personality: "And obviously everybody likes to walk to
Starbucks to get a coffee." (Wrong, Mike.) That's all the checking I did.

So I'd say we have "a coffee" here, but it's quite a bit less common
than the mass-noun alternatives.

> Can you say "I'll have a cake"?

Yes, mostly in bakeries.

--
Jerry Friedman
"No Trump" bridge-themed political shirts: cafepress.com/jerrysdesigns
Bumper stickers ditto: cafepress/jerrysstickers

[Jerry Friedman]

On 3/27/16 3:22 AM, Django Cat wrote:
...

> Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a common
> culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what is the

> default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?' (Please let's not go down

> the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you get in

> a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without milk? In the UK

> you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your coffee
> black...

...

Around here, if I ordered coffee at a diner (in an emergency), I'd
expect to get it from a percolator, black. Like others, I haven't heard
of coffee served with milk in it unless it was ordered that way. At
McDonald's, you can ask for it with "two creams", speaking of count
nouns and mass nouns.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 27 Mar 2016 16:24:43 -0600, Jerry Friedman
<jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>On 3/27/16 3:22 AM, Django Cat wrote:
>...
>
>> Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a common
>> culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what is the
>> default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?' (Please let's not go down
>> the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you get in
>> a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without milk? In the UK
>> you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your coffee
>> black...
>...
>
>Around here, if I ordered coffee at a diner (in an emergency), I'd
>expect to get it from a percolator, black. Like others, I haven't heard
>of coffee served with milk in it unless it was ordered that way. At
>McDonald's, you can ask for it with "two creams", speaking of count
>nouns and mass nouns.

A percolator? Are those things still in use? I can't imagine a diner
using one. A percolator sit atop a stove burner and bubbles up
boiling water through a tube and then the water percolates back down
into to the pot passing through the coffee grounds container. It
takes forever to make a pot of coffee, and then you have only the one
pot.

http://wecoffee.bio/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/percolator-parts.jpg

Any diner of any size would normally use a commercial coffee maker
like this:
http://www.basequipment.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BLM-9012-2.jpg
or one that brews more than a single pot at a time.

[bill van]

In article <ljggfbt1t8i3kqd0g...@4ax.com>,

Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Mar 2016 21:27:26 +0100, "Django Cat" <> wrote:
>
> >> You probably meant "drip/dripped coffee" (as opposed to
> >> "percolated", etc).
> >
> >I mean filter coffee. I have no idea what "drip/dripped coffee" is.
> >Maybe you're telling me 'filter coffee' isn't a term used wherever it
> >is you live.
>
> I'm not sure what "filter coffee" is. Our coffee maker at home uses
> paper filters, but I wouldn't call it "filter coffee". The word
> "filter" seems extraneous because most coffee-making devices use a
> filter of some sort. The ground coffee is placed in a paper filter
> and the hot water flows over the ground coffee into the container
> below.

I don't use the term regularly, but it seems very obvious to me what
filter coffee is. Most automatic coffee makers and "manual" filter
systems such as my Melitta use a paper or metal filter to keep the
grounds out of the final product. I would find "drip coffee" an
ambiguous term because both filter systems and percolators involve
dripping.

I buy my coffee from the people who roast it. I ask for a pound of
whatever roast I want, ground for cone filter. They grind it and hand me
the fresh-ground bag of coffee.

>
> The exception is a "French Press" that does not include a paper
> filter, but does have a mesh plate that acts as a filter to keep the
> grounds out of the coffee. We have one, but it's only used to brew an
> extra cup or two when it's not practical to fire up the regular
> coffee-maker.

It's my impression that the French press makes a fine cup of coffee. I
haven't switched to it because I'm perfectly happy with the coffee
preparation method I've been using for something over 30 years, which
was a great improvement over percolator coffee, which often tasted a bit
burned to me.
--
bill

[Lewis]

In message <qrpgfb5ompfgte5k7...@4ax.com>

Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, 27 Mar 2016 16:24:43 -0600, Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

>>On 3/27/16 3:22 AM, Django Cat wrote:
>>...
>>
>>> Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a common
>>> culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what is the
>>> default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?' (Please let's not go down
>>> the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you get in
>>> a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without milk? In the UK
>>> you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your coffee
>>> black...
>>...
>>
>>Around here, if I ordered coffee at a diner (in an emergency), I'd
>>expect to get it from a percolator, black. Like others, I haven't heard
>>of coffee served with milk in it unless it was ordered that way. At
>>McDonald's, you can ask for it with "two creams", speaking of count
>>nouns and mass nouns.

> A percolator? Are those things still in use?

I only see them in places like parish halls, meeting rooms, etc. And
rarely, even then.

We have one. We inherited it and used it once at the holidays for cider
and my wife has taken it to work on a couple of occasions for coffee.

> I can't imagine a diner using one. A percolator sit atop a stove
> burner

Oh, I've never seen that. Ours looks something like this:

<http://www.webstaurantstore.com/images/products/main/166824/288968/west-bend-58015v-commercial-55-cup-aluminum-coffee-maker-international-use.jpg>

Only older. The heating element is integrated into the base. I think
ours is 80 cups (6oz cups) but it might be 100.

I've never seen one in a diner.

--
What are you, Ghouls? There are no dead students here. This week.

[Robert Bannister]

On 27/03/2016 9:36 pm, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 5:22:23 AM UTC-4, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:

>> it's going to have to be 'I ordered *an* *espresso*, swilled it down in

>> a second and went out of the bar'. Hmm... Maybe for the Italian
>> translator the other example has to be 'he spent half an hour with
>> the cup in his hands, sipping his Americano and thinking of Mary.' Or
>> not...
>>

>> Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a common
>> culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what is the
>> default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?'
>

> They'd think you were a Brit. In American it would be either "Coffee,
> please," or "A cup of coffee, please," or "Some coffee,
> please." (Any of
> them may be preceded by "I'd like ....") I.e., "coffee" doesn't cease
> being a mass noun when apportioned into portions.

Now, these days in Australia, I would say "A flat white, please", the
person next to me might order a cappuccino and the two women might ask
for lattes. Unfortunately, the phrases "a coffee" or "some coffee" are
no longer usable. It would be like walking into a pub and asking for "a
beer". All these choices makes travel very difficult.

--
Robert B. born England a long time ago;
Western Australia since 1972

[Robert Bannister]

On 27/03/2016 10:51 pm, Django Cat wrote:

>
> Really???? You can't say 'I'll have a coffee'???
>
> Can you say 'I'll have a beer'?

Obviously not, otherwise you'd be presented with a huge list of choices
or told to look at the menu.

[Robert Bannister]

I, on the other hand, don't know of anywhere that serves coffee without
unless you specifically ask for espresso. Even macchiato comes with some
milk.

[Tony Cooper]

I've seen those, but only in situations where a large group is
involved. A church or an AA meeting or summat like that.

The percolator that sits atop the stove burner is one used in the home
that makes four to eight cups of coffee.

[Charles Bishop]

In article <nd9mjb$8tf$1...@news.albasani.net>,

Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> On 3/27/16 3:22 AM, Django Cat wrote:
> ...
>
> > Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a common
> > culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what is the
> > default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?' (Please let's not go down
> > the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you get in
> > a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without milk? In the UK
> > you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your coffee
> > black...
> ...
>
> Around here, if I ordered coffee at a diner (in an emergency), I'd
> expect to get it from a percolator, black.

Shirley not percolator, but more likely one of the drip coffee makers,
industrial size. Although I do see the large commercial percolators when
there is a gathering or event someplace and they need to have coffee in
a large quantity. Most of the coffee shops and cafes (that I have been
to lately) have gone to the drip method.

> Like others, I haven't heard
> of coffee served with milk in it unless it was ordered that way. At
> McDonald's, you can ask for it with "two creams", speaking of count
> nouns and mass nouns.

--

charles

[Charles Bishop]

In article <qrpgfb5ompfgte5k7...@4ax.com>,

Tony Cooper <tonyco...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 27 Mar 2016 16:24:43 -0600, Jerry Friedman
> <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >On 3/27/16 3:22 AM, Django Cat wrote:
> >...
> >
> >> Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a common
> >> culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what is the
> >> default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?' (Please let's not go down
> >> the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you get in
> >> a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without milk? In the UK
> >> you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your coffee
> >> black...
> >...
> >
> >Around here, if I ordered coffee at a diner (in an emergency), I'd
> >expect to get it from a percolator, black. Like others, I haven't heard
> >of coffee served with milk in it unless it was ordered that way. At
> >McDonald's, you can ask for it with "two creams", speaking of count
> >nouns and mass nouns.
>
> A percolator? Are those things still in use? I can't imagine a diner
> using one. A percolator sit atop a stove burner and bubbles up
> boiling water through a tube and then the water percolates back down
> into to the pot passing through the coffee grounds container. It
> takes forever to make a pot of coffee, and then you have only the one
> pot.

There are large percolators that can be seen at events such as church
suppers and the like. The radio station I volunteer at has one for the
volunteers. It holds probably 4-6 gallons. It's the kind with the glass
tube in front so you can see how much is left in it.

Here's one

http://www.missionrs.com/adcraft-cp-40-coffee-percolator-40-cup-capacity.
html?st-t=i00600001&gclid=CMD5hMq24ssCFYU2aQod1hwDag

>
> http://wecoffee.bio/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/percolator-parts.jpg
>
> Any diner of any size would normally use a commercial coffee maker
> like this:
> http://www.basequipment.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BLM-9012-2.jpg
> or one that brews more than a single pot at a time.

--

charles

[Peter T. Daniels]

That's as it should be. (But "coffee bar" sound so chi-chi. It wasn't just Eco's malapropism?)

[Charles Bishop]

In article <xcydnUsSSIOw32XL...@brightview.co.uk>,
"Django Cat" <> wrote:

[snip]

>
> This is clearly going to come as a surprise, but we do drink coffee in
> the UK, and it was coffee we were talking about. The distressing thing
> about ordering tea in the US is when they come back and show you a tray
> of infusions and say 'we have raspberry, camomile or mint'.
>
> No, love, when we say we want tea, we mean tea.

Then, when they bring it, do you then throw the metal pot with lukewarm
water and a tea bag at them?

It's hard to get good tea in a restaurant.

--
charles

[Peter T. Daniels]

"What do you have on draft?" ... "I'll have a Linkenstein, please."

> Meanwhile, coffee comes in cups. Or mugs. Or cafetieres.

And that's how you'd ask for it, if different sizes were on the menu.

> > > Weird.
> > >
> > > > > (Please let's not go down
> > > > > the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you
> > > > > get in a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without
> > > > > milk?
> > > > I haven't seen "filter coffee" in many years. As has often been
> > > > discussed here, whether milk counts as "regular" varies
> > > > regionally.
> > > > > In the UK
> > > > > you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your
> > > > > coffee black...
> > > > Do they put it in for you????
> > > Absolutely.
> > And, being Brits, you wouldn't consider complaining if they put in
> > too much (too little is, presumably, reparable, but again you'd have
> > to utter a criticism of the server).
>
> They always put in exactly the correct amount.

Spoken like a true non-confrontationalist.

> Can you say "I'll have a cake"?

If you want to eat an entire cake.

Ordering in a restaurant, you'd ask for "a piece of cake" or "a slice of
cake" or "a piece of [kind of] cake" from the selection offered.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 4:27:29 PM UTC-4, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:

> This is clearly going to come as a surprise, but we do drink coffee in
> the UK, and it was coffee we were talking about. The distressing thing
> about ordering tea in the US is when they come back and show you a tray
> of infusions and say 'we have raspberry, camomile or mint'.

Only if you've made it clear you don't want regular tea.

> No, love, when we say we want tea, we mean tea.

Is "infusion" Brit for 'teabag'?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Since he asked about asking for "a beer," I assumed he was referring to a
get-together in someone's home.

At an ordinary neighborhood bar, there will certainly be several brands
available in bottles and one or two on tap (the source for the aformentioned
pitcher).

[Jerry Friedman]

Okay, one of those things then. Is that "filter coffee", DC?

[Jerry Friedman]

On 3/27/16 11:06 AM, Tak To wrote:
...

> I think Americans would call it "cream", even though it is
> probably half-and-half (~10% butter fat) these days. Decades ago
> it might have been light cream (~20%). "Milk" was an odd
> choice back then but is more common now.
>
> Drinking habits change. These days, if one asks for a coffee,
> it is more likely than not that the server will ask back "How
> do you like it?".

At which point you can answer, "Black as the devil, hot as hell, pure as
an angel, sweet as love.

"> However, "regular" still means "cream and sugar".

I thought that was only in the New York area.

> If the server does not ask, one would get a cup of
> black coffee with cream and sugar (sugar assortments) on the
> side.
...

And whitener assortments, at least in some places.

[Lewis]

In message <ndaadc$t2r$5...@news.albasani.net>

"Filter coffee" is not a term I use. I would call that "drip" coffee.
Or, more likely, coffee.


--
Strange things are afoot at the Circle K

[Snidely]

Tony Cooper blurted out:

Bunn is the usual brand around here, I believe. Not uncommon to see a
staffer carrying two of those glass pots, and asking "regular or
decaf?"

/dps

--
Killing a mouse was hardly a Nobel Prize-worthy exercise, and Lawrence
went apopleptic when he learned a lousy rodent had peed away all his
precious heavy water.
_The Disappearing Spoon_, Sam Kean

[charles]

In article <c75b44ad-c4b8-40f6...@googlegroups.com>, Peter

"Coffee bar" was a very 1960s expresson.

--
from KT24 in Surrey, England

[charles]

In article <816c593c-d0e4-417f...@googlegroups.com>,

but, many places offer small cakes which are individual portions.

[Katy Jennison]

Even Americano?

(But the Cat's original post made it clear he wasn't talking about
cappuccino, latte, and all the other things which include some sort of
milk or cream as an essential part of their definition. The
milk-default, which I was querying, applied to "A coffee, please" in a
cafe or diner.)

--
Katy Jennison

[Unknown]

Katy Jennison wrote:

> On 27/03/2016 21:18, Django Cat wrote:
> > Katy Jennison wrote:
> >

> > > On 27/03/2016 18:39, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 10:51:18 AM UTC-4,
> > > > nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
> > > > > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 5:22:23 AM UTC-4,
> > > > > > nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
> > >
> > > > > > > Then there's the point that not all English-speakers
> > > > > > > share a common culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in
> > > > > > > the US, but what is the default, if you just say 'I'd
> > > > > > > like a coffee?'
> > > > > > They'd think you were a Brit. In American it would be either
> > > > > > "Coffee, please," or "A cup of coffee, please," or "Some
> > > > > > coffee, please." (Any of them may be preceded by "I'd like
> > > > > > ....") I.e., "coffee" doesn't cease being a mass noun when
> > > > > > apportioned into portions.
> > > > >
> > > > > Really???? You can't say 'I'll have a coffee'???
> > > > >
> > > > > Can you say 'I'll have a beer'?
> > > >

> > > > Well I don't say that, but I imagine it's because beer generally

> > > > comes in countable form -- a bottle or can. At a bar with
> > > > friends you ask for "a pitcher."
> > > >
> > > > > Weird.
> > > > >
> > > > > > > (Please let's not go down
> > > > > > > the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean
> > > > > > > what you get in a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but
> > > > > > > with or without milk?
> > > > > > I haven't seen "filter coffee" in many years. As has often
> > > > > > been discussed here, whether milk counts as "regular" varies
> > > > > > regionally.
> > > > > > > In the UK
> > > > > > > you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for
> > > > > > > your coffee black...
> > > > > > Do they put it in for you????
> > > > >
> > > > > Absolutely.
> > > >

> > > > And, being Brits, you wouldn't consider complaining if they put

> > > > in too much (too little is, presumably, reparable, but again
> > > > you'd have to utter a criticism of the server).
> > > >
> > >
> > > This really is regional. Your average barista in your average
> > > south-of-England coffee bar would certainly not add milk to your
> > > coffee unless you asked for it. And even in the relatively few
> > > places which serve Cona coffee you'd still be asked if you wanted
> > > milk.
> > >
> >

> > Do you think so? I'm specifically thinking of caffs rather than
> > Starbucks, Coasta and other of that ilk.
> >

> > But let's find out - I suggest we each put it to the test over the
> > next couple of weeks and get back!
> >
>
> The trouble with that is that my coffee of preference is espresso.
> I'd have to pay for a lot of cups of coffee which I'd rather not
> drink. I could try to remember to notice what happens when other
> people get coffee, though.


Fair nuff. That Storm Katy's [1] been giving us a battering the last
couple of days, anything you could sort?


DC [1] or possibly Katie...

--

[Unknown]

Of course; or at the very best, "pint or a half?". But asking a
colleague "fancy a beer?" is standard.

DC

--

[Katy Jennison]

That's what I'd call a Cona machine. Still occasionally seen in the UK,
but almost all cafes and restaurants round here have gone over to the
long Italian-style fizzing and frothing and espressing apparatus, all
gleaming chrome and bendy pipes, and the cups sitting warming on the top.

--
Katy Jennison

[GordonD]

Exactly. To me it conjures up images of bad films made by pop stars in
the early sixties. They couldn't be seen to be promoting alcohol, so
they would hang out in coffee bars, not pubs.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland

[GordonD]

On 28/03/2016 04:37, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 6:00:17 PM UTC-4, GordonD wrote:
>> On 27/03/2016 21:15, Django Cat wrote:
>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>>> On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 10:51:18 AM UTC-4,
>>>> nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
>
>>>>> Can you say 'I'll have a beer'?
>>>> Well I don't say that, but I imagine it's because beer generally
>>>> comes in countable form -- a bottle or can. At a bar with friends you
>>>> ask for "a pitcher."
>>> So, you can't say it when there's draught beer? (On tap). Like the
>>> excellent San Francisco Steam Beer...
>>
>> In the UK asking for "a beer" is likely to get a strange look from the
>> barman and the response, "Which kind?"
>
> Since he asked about asking for "a beer," I assumed he was referring to a
> get-together in someone's home.

Ah, I didn't pick up on that. Though there was a reference to asking
for a pitcher when in a bar with friends.

> At an ordinary neighborhood bar, there will certainly be several brands
> available in bottles and one or two on tap (the source for the aformentioned
> pitcher).
>

In the UK it's usually the other way round. Unless it's a trendy bar
catering for young people, there will be more choice on tap than in
bottles.

[GordonD]

There's a Laurel and Hardy film where the Boys are at a street diner.

Ollie: "Bring me a demitasse!"
Stan: "Bring me one, too. And put it in a big cup!"

[charles]

In article <ndarku$b8f$1...@news.albasani.net>, Katy Jennison

we have a coffee shop at our railway (US train) station. Su only opened a
couple of years ago and has both types of machine. The filter one keeping
hot for those in hurry and the italian type for those who can wait. It
opens at 5.30 am for the early communters getting their train at 5.50am!

I've often wondered why "Italian"? They don't grow coffee there.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

On 2016-03-28 09:32:26 +0000, charles said:

> [ … ]

> I've often wondered why "Italian"? They don't grow coffee there.

Because the Italians invented decent coffee. Apart from Italy you can
be sure of getting good coffee in Portugal. Otherwise in Europe it's a
bit hit and miss.

--
athel

[Katy Jennison]

I'm working on it. Expect results in a day or two.

--
Katy Jennison

[Katy Jennison]

I begin to be impressed by Surrey's railway stations. My daughter and I
had a long wait on Weybridge station last week, when trains to London
were subject to delays because of a signalling failure at Wimbledon.
Excellent coffee kiosk on the platform, proper espresso, and tables and
chairs.

It might not be just Surrey, though. There was also a proper coffee
machine in the kiosk on the platform at Clapham Junction.


--
Katy Jennison

[charles]

In article <ndb2bd$o95$1...@news.albasani.net>, Katy Jennison

and there is kiosk somewhere on our line which sells "Water - flat or
bumpy". I suspect an error in translation somewhere.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 12:07:14 AM UTC-4, Jerry Friedman wrote:
> On 3/27/16 11:06 AM, Tak To wrote:

> > Drinking habits change. These days, if one asks for a coffee,
> > it is more likely than not that the server will ask back "How
> > do you like it?".
>
> At which point you can answer, "Black as the devil, hot as hell, pure as
> an angel, sweet as love.
>
> "> However, "regular" still means "cream and sugar".
>
> I thought that was only in the New York area.

Tak To is in the New York area. Maybe he shares Tony Cooper's penchant
for torturing felines.

> > If the server does not ask, one would get a cup of
> > black coffee with cream and sugar (sugar assortments) on the
> > side.
> ...
>
> And whitener assortments, at least in some places.

"Sugar assortment" being not just the three sugar substitutes (the
blue one, the pink one, and the yellow one), but also ordinary refined
sugar, an "organic" sugar, and maybe other varieties.

[Peter T. Daniels]

You would specify: "A petit-four." "A tea cake." "A cupcake" (though
cupcakes are so 2010).

[Katy Jennison]

In Br, teacakes don't count as "cakes". Apart from those, which you'd
order by saying "A teacake, please" and then respond to the query "Would
you like that toasted?", the standard everywhere I've ever had a small
cake is "And one of those, there -- no, the ones in front, with the
cream, yes, one of those, please."

--
Katy Jennison

[Peter T. Daniels]

I wonder whether we still have demitasses. Or everyone is so sophisticated
that they ask for a specific concoction. (Except "americano," of course.)

I like the one where they're sharing a malted milk (two straws). Stan has
at it first and drains the glass. To Ollie's look, he replies, "My half
was on the bottom" (though a bit sheepishly apologetic).

[Peter T. Daniels]

Have you seen *The Harvey Girls*, the Judy Garland musical that, rather
improbably, tells the story of the Harvey House chain that provided
food and lodging at train stations throughout the US Southwest during the
heyday of rail travel?
There was an exhibit about it at the Albuquerque historical museum when
I was there a few years ago.

The Oscar-winning song "The Atchison, Topeka, and the Santa Fe" is from that movie.

[Peter T. Daniels]

I.e., not "a cake."

"Tea cake" isn't a specific item, but something from the tray or cart
of offered things. Maybe a little less fancy than a petit-four.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 28 Mar 2016 06:35:32 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

<gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

>On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 9:11:00 AM UTC-4, Katy Jennison wrote:
>> On 28/03/2016 13:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>> > On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 2:53:11 AM UTC-4, charles wrote:
>> >> In article <816c593c-d0e4-417f...@googlegroups.com>,
>> >> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>> >>> On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 4:15:25 PM UTC-4, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
>>
>> >>>> Can you say "I'll have a cake"?
>> >>> If you want to eat an entire cake.
>> >>> Ordering in a restaurant, you'd ask for "a piece of cake" or "a slice of
>> >>> cake" or "a piece of [kind of] cake" from the selection offered.
>> >> but, many places offer small cakes which are individual portions.
>> > You would specify: "A petit-four." "A tea cake." "A cupcake" (though
>> > cupcakes are so 2010).
>>
>> In Br, teacakes don't count as "cakes". Apart from those, which you'd
>> order by saying "A teacake, please" and then respond to the query "Would
>> you like that toasted?", the standard everywhere I've ever had a small
>> cake is "And one of those, there -- no, the ones in front, with the
>> cream, yes, one of those, please."
>
>I.e., not "a cake."
>
>"Tea cake" isn't a specific item, but something from the tray or cart
>of offered things. Maybe a little less fancy than a petit-four.

That may be so where you are. But:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teacake

A teacake in England is a light yeast-based sweet bun containing
dried fruit, typically served toasted and buttered.

In the U.S. teacakes can be cookies or small cakes.

In Sweden they are soft round flat wheat breads made with milk and a
little sugar, and used to make sandwiches, with butter, and for
example ham and/or cheese.

In India and Australia a teacake is more like a sponge cake.


--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[the Omrud]

On 28/03/2016 14:10, Katy Jennison wrote:

> In Br, teacakes don't count as "cakes". Apart from those, which you'd
> order by saying "A teacake, please" and then respond to the query "Would
> you like that toasted?", the standard everywhere I've ever had a small
> cake is "And one of those, there -- no, the ones in front, with the
> cream, yes, one of those, please."

I'm very nervous about starting a sub-thread on bakery products (on
which topic I entered AUE, many aeons ago, and since which the Usenet
has rotated several times). However, in Wife's West Yorkshire dialect,
a teacake is a flat bread roll which might be suitable for housing a
burger. The thing I call a teacake is known by her as a "currant teacake".

--
David

[Richard Tobin]

In article <p8difbdqnrf2n80pg...@4ax.com>,

Peter Duncanson [BrE] <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:

> A teacake in England is a light yeast-based sweet bun containing
> dried fruit, typically served toasted and buttered.

And Tunnock's Teacakes, popular in Scotland, are quite different.

-- Richard

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 9:46:18 AM UTC-4, PeterWD wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Mar 2016 06:35:32 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:

> >"Tea cake" isn't a specific item, but something from the tray or cart
> >of offered things. Maybe a little less fancy than a petit-four.
>
> That may be so where you are. But:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teacake
>
> A teacake in England is a light yeast-based sweet bun containing
> dried fruit, typically served toasted and buttered.

Sounds like a hot cross bun without the cross. We don't seem to have them year-round.

> In the U.S. teacakes can be cookies or small cakes.
>
> In Sweden they are soft round flat wheat breads made with milk and a
> little sugar, and used to make sandwiches, with butter, and for
> example ham and/or cheese.
>
> In India and Australia a teacake is more like a sponge cake.

And what David the Omrud mentions could simply be a "hamburger bun."

[Janet]

In article <a60e1905-d668-4fe7...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

In Br E, a teacake IS a specific baked item and as Kate just told you,
it's not a cake.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/food/recipes/spiced_teacakes_29429

Janet

[Whiskers]

On 2016-03-26, Django Cat <> wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>

>> On Friday, March 25, 2016 at 9:14:29 AM UTC-4, arth...@yahoo.com
>> wrote:
>> > On Thursday, March 24, 2016 at 9:04:11 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels

>> > wrote:
>>
>> > > This afternoon I came across this passage by Umberto Eco:
>> > >
>> > > "Consider these two sentences, one from an Italian novel, the
>> > > other from an American one. 'Ordinai un caffé, lo buttai giù in
>> > > un secondo ed uscii dal bar' (literally, 'I ordered a coffee,
>> > > swilled it down in a second and went out of the bar'); and 'He
>> > > spent half an hour with the cup in his hands, sipping his coffee
>> > > and thinking of Mary.' The first sentence can only refer to an
>> > > Italian coffee and to an Italian bar, since an American coffee
>> > > cannot be swallowed in a second both because of its quantity and
>> > > of its temperature. The second sentence cannot refer to an
>> > > Italian subject (at least to an average one drinking an average
>> > > espresso) because it presupposes a large cup containing what
>> > > seems like gallons of coffee."
>> > >
>> > > (*Experiences in Translation* [1998], trans. Alastair McEwen
>> > > [2001], p. 18)
>> >

>> > Very interesting.
>> > I like it that you have mentioned the name of the translator of the
>> > book! You have even given the dates for the original and the
>> > translation. Very nice!
>>
>> It seemed appropriate in a book about translation. It originated as a
>> lecture series at the University of Toronto, though he doesn't say
>> what language he spoke in.
>>
>> > I once saw a very old discarded TV set sitting on the sidewalk. Two
>> > young girls were walking by. They stopped and started 'examining'
>> > the set. One of them exclaimed: 'Look! All the buttons that are
>> > supposed to be on the remote control are on the set!'
>> >
>> > A day will come that someone will read the sentence:
>> > I entered the restaurant, sat at an empty table and lit up a
>> > cigarette. and they will think the 'I' in question wanted to be
>> > kicked out.
>> >
>> > A footnote would be in order: In those days, people could smoke in
>> > restaurants.
>> >
>> > My point is that translation occurs not only across languages but
>> > also along temporal lines...
>>
>> Then you'll probably want to read Eco's essay.
>>
>> What struck me most was the revelation that espresso is not drunk hot.
>
> It certainly is served hot. If you want a cold one they pour it over
> ice. Chugging a whole cup - even a single - straight from the machine
> would be at the very least, uncomfortable. I think we have to allow for
> the possibility that this was a figurative second.
>
> DC

The temperature of an American black coffee in a half-pint or larger
cup, and an Italian Espresso in a 2 ounce demitasse, is probably much
the same. However, the larger vessel will contain a great deal more
heat; and it's the heat that makes swilling the big cup so much more
painful, not the temperature.

--
-- ^^^^^^^^^^
-- Whiskers
-- ~~~~~~~~~~

[LFS]

Can we discuss the difference between a Bath bun and a Sally Lunn? I was
in Bath last week and sampled the former. It was rather like a teacake
as I know it (with fruit in) but the fruit and sugar was perched on the
top. The Sally Lunn shop seemed to be selling what your wife would call
a teacake with no fruit anywhere but the shop had closed so I couldn't
try one.

(I have a feeling that we all enter on the bakery products topic: it
comes round like a paternoster lift.)

--
Laura (emulate St George for email)

[Whiskers]

On 2016-03-26, Athel Cornish-Bowden <acor...@imm.cnrs.fr> wrote:

> On 2016-03-26 02:17:15 +0000, Dr. HotSalt said:
>
>> On Thursday, March 24, 2016 at 9:04:11 PM UTC-7, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> This afternoon I came across this passage by Umberto Eco:
>>>
>>> "Consider these two sentences, one from an Italian novel, the other
>>> from an> American one. 'Ordinai un caffé, lo buttai giù in un secondo
>>> ed uscii dal bar'
>>> (literally, 'I ordered a coffee, swilled it down in a second and went
>>> out of> the bar'); and 'He spent half an hour with the cup in his
>>> hands, sipping his> coffee and thinking of Mary.' The first sentence
>>> can only refer to an Italian> coffee and to an Italian bar, since an
>>> American coffee cannot be swallowed in> a second both because of its
>>> quantity and of its temperature. The second> sentence cannot refer to
>>> an Italian subject (at least to an average one> drinking an average
>>> espresso) because it presupposes a large cup containing> what seems
>>> like gallons of coffee."
>>>
>>> (*Experiences in Translation* [1998], trans. Alastair McEwen [2001], p. 18)
>>

>> I agree with his assessment of the first sentence. I've been in not a
>> few U. S. bars (not that I'm a barfly, but I am in my 60's and why
>> not?), and not all of them served coffee, and of those that did, I
>> wouldn't try to swill down what they served in a second.
>>
>> As for the second sentence, alcoholic drinks aren't the only kind
>> that can be nursed if one's in that mood. Of course, if it were tea,
>> I'd assume the drinker was an Englishman.
>
> or a Russian, or a Chinese, or a Chilean, or a Japanese. The English
> aren't the only ones who drink tea.

The Scottish, Irish, Welsh, and Manx, account for a fair quantity.
India and Pakistan and Turkey and Iran and Afghanistan also like a
generous supply of cuppas.

[Janet]

In article <f4c3d24a-8c88-49a3...@googlegroups.com>,
gram...@verizon.net says...

>
> On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 6:00:17 PM UTC-4, GordonD wrote:

> > On 27/03/2016 21:15, Django Cat wrote:
> > > Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > >> On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 10:51:18 AM UTC-4,

> > >> nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
>
> > >>> Can you say 'I'll have a beer'?
> > >> Well I don't say that, but I imagine it's because beer generally
> > >> comes in countable form -- a bottle or can. At a bar with friends you
> > >> ask for "a pitcher."

> > > So, you can't say it when there's draught beer? (On tap). Like the
> > > excellent San Francisco Steam Beer...
> >

> > In the UK asking for "a beer" is likely to get a strange look from the
> > barman and the response, "Which kind?"
>
> Since he asked about asking for "a beer," I assumed he was referring to a
> get-together in someone's home.

In a British home, when someone offers you a beer, a glass of wine, or
a Scotch, they will virtually always offer several different beers,
wines, Scotches to choose from.

Janet.

[LFS]

On 28/03/2016 14:35, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 9:11:00 AM UTC-4, Katy Jennison wrote:
>> On 28/03/2016 13:55, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>>> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 2:53:11 AM UTC-4, charles wrote:
>>>> In article <816c593c-d0e4-417f...@googlegroups.com>,
>>>> Peter T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>> On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 4:15:25 PM UTC-4, nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
>>
>>>>>> Can you say "I'll have a cake"?
>>>>> If you want to eat an entire cake.
>>>>> Ordering in a restaurant, you'd ask for "a piece of cake" or "a slice of
>>>>> cake" or "a piece of [kind of] cake" from the selection offered.
>>>> but, many places offer small cakes which are individual portions.
>>> You would specify: "A petit-four." "A tea cake." "A cupcake" (though
>>> cupcakes are so 2010).
>>
>> In Br, teacakes don't count as "cakes". Apart from those, which you'd
>> order by saying "A teacake, please" and then respond to the query "Would
>> you like that toasted?", the standard everywhere I've ever had a small
>> cake is "And one of those, there -- no, the ones in front, with the
>> cream, yes, one of those, please."
>
> I.e., not "a cake."

Yes, a cake. In this country, we have no difficulty in distinguishing
between a large cake, from which one might have a slice, and a small
cake which would be a single portion. It's all cake to us and the
context would indicate the size.

And then there are tarts.

>
> "Tea cake" isn't a specific item, but something from the tray or cart
> of offered things. Maybe a little less fancy than a petit-four.
>

"I'll have a petit-four" sounds extremely pretentious. Petit-fours are
usually in the plural and more often served with coffee after a fancy
meal than at tea time.

[Jerry Friedman]

On 3/28/16 8:15 AM, LFS wrote:
> On 28/03/2016 14:49, the Omrud wrote:

...

>> I'm very nervous about starting a sub-thread on bakery products (on
>> which topic I entered AUE, many aeons ago, and since which the Usenet
>> has rotated several times). However, in Wife's West Yorkshire dialect,
>> a teacake is a flat bread roll which might be suitable for housing a
>> burger. The thing I call a teacake is known by her as a "currant
>> teacake".
>>
>
> Can we discuss the difference between a Bath bun and a Sally Lunn? I was
> in Bath last week and sampled the former. It was rather like a teacake
> as I know it (with fruit in) but the fruit and sugar was perched on the
> top. The Sally Lunn shop seemed to be selling what your wife would call
> a teacake with no fruit anywhere but the shop had closed so I couldn't
> try one.
>
> (I have a feeling that we all enter on the bakery products topic: it
> comes round like a paternoster lift.)

Once again my experience is enlarged. I don't think we have paternoster
lifts here. Apparently they hardly ever kill anybody.

--
Jerry Friedman
"No Trump" bridge-themed political shirts: cafepress.com/jerrysdesigns
Bumper stickers ditto: cafepress/jerrysstickers

[Whiskers]

On 2016-03-27, Django Cat <> wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>

>> This afternoon I came across this passage by Umberto Eco:
>>
>> "Consider these two sentences, one from an Italian novel, the other
>> from an American one. 'Ordinai un caffé, lo buttai giù in un secondo
>> ed uscii dal bar' (literally, 'I ordered a coffee, swilled it down in
>> a second and went out of the bar'); and 'He spent half an hour with
>> the cup in his hands, sipping his coffee and thinking of Mary.' The
>> first sentence can only refer to an Italian coffee and to an Italian
>> bar, since an American coffee cannot be swallowed in a second both
>> because of its quantity and of its temperature. The second sentence
>> cannot refer to an Italian subject (at least to an average one
>> drinking an average espresso) because it presupposes a large cup
>> containing what seems like gallons of coffee."
>>
>> (*Experiences in Translation* [1998], trans. Alastair McEwen [2001],
>> p. 18)
>
>

> Eco, of course, has a good point to make, though I'm not sure he's
> chosen the best example to make it with.
>
> What the translator does have to keep in mind, I suppose, is what the
> reader visualises. If you just ask for a coffee in a bar in Italy, what
> you get as the default is what English-speakers would call an espresso,
> and it's that which the reader needs to picture here.
>
> In fact I'm not sure I've ever even heard the word 'espresso' used in
> Italy; if in a bar you wanted to state that what you wanted was a
> bog-standard espresso (maybe because you companions were having
> cappucinos), you'd usually ask for a 'caffe normale'.
>
> So for the translator to get the right picture to a non-Italian reader

> it's going to have to be 'I ordered *an* *espresso*, swilled it down in

> a second and went out of the bar'. Hmm... Maybe for the Italian
> translator the other example has to be 'he spent half an hour with
> the cup in his hands, sipping his Americano and thinking of Mary.' Or
> not...
>

> Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a common
> culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what is the
> default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?' (Please let's not go down
> the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean what you get in
> a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but with or without milk? In the UK
> you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for your coffee
> black...
>
>

> DC, due to spend five weeks in the Veneto from mid-April.

This sort of thing seems to change over time too. I once used to order
'black coffee' in the UK; then the barristas imposed their culture on
many establishments and I discovered that if what I wanted was a normal
cup filled with hot black coffee and nothing else then I should order an
'Americano' (and I'd get an espresso with added hot water). Recently,
ordering an 'Americano' has resulted in delivery of something with milk
in it so now when I see the gleaming steaming hissing squirting monster
on the counter I have to specify 'Americano, black'. But if there's a
'Cona' machine, or press-pots or filters, I can still get 'black coffee'
by that name.

[Tony Cooper]

A visitor to my home might be asked if they would like "a beer". Only
if the person replied in the affirmative would I bother listing any
different types/brands as choices. With wine, the choice might be
"red or white?" if the bottles are already opened.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[Katy Jennison]

I'd never heard of it till now, but I've just looked it up, and it seems
rather appealing, in a stereotypically-1940s way.

--
Katy Jennison

[ANMC...@alum.wpi.edu]

On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 1:58:13 AM UTC-7, GordonD wrote:
> On 28/03/2016 07:01, charles wrote:
> > In article <c75b44ad-c4b8-40f6...@googlegroups.com>, Peter
> > T. Daniels <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
> >> On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 2:40:29 PM UTC-4, Katy Jennison wrote:

> >>> On 27/03/2016 18:39, Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>>> On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 10:51:18 AM UTC-4,
> >>>> nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:

> >>>>> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >>>>>> On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 5:22:23 AM UTC-4,
> >>>>>> nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
> >

> >>>>>>> Then there's the point that not all English-speakers share a
> >>>>>>> common culture. I'm sure I've ordered coffee in the US, but what
> >>>>>>> is the default, if you just say 'I'd like a coffee?'

> >>>>>> They'd think you were a Brit. In American it would be either
> >>>>>> "Coffee, please," or "A cup of coffee, please," or "Some coffee,
> >>>>>> please." (Any of them may be preceded by "I'd like ....") I.e.,
> >>>>>> "coffee" doesn't cease being a mass noun when apportioned into
> >>>>>> portions.

> >>>>> Really???? You can't say 'I'll have a coffee'??? Can you say 'I'll
> >>>>> have a beer'?
> >>>> Well _I_ don't say that, but I imagine it's because beer generally

> >>>> comes in countable form -- a bottle or can. At a bar with friends you
> >>>> ask for "a pitcher."

> >>>>> Weird.

> >>>>>>> (Please let's not go down the Starbucks 'grande crapachino'
> >>>>>>> nonsense line, I mean what you get in a diner). Filter coffee, I'd
> >>>>>>> guess, but with or without milk?

> >>>>>> I haven't seen "filter coffee" in many years. As has often been
> >>>>>> discussed here, whether milk counts as "regular" varies regionally.

> >>>>>>> In the UK you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for
> >>>>>>> your coffee black...

> >>>>>> Do they put it in for you????
> >>>>> Absolutely.

> >>>> And, being Brits, you wouldn't _consider_ complaining if they put in

> >>>> too much (too little is, presumably, reparable, but again you'd have
> >>>> to utter a criticism of the server).
> >>>

> >>> This really is regional. Your average barista in your average
> >>> south-of-England coffee bar would certainly not add milk to your coffee
> >>> unless you asked for it. And even in the relatively few places which
> >>> serve Cona coffee you'd still be asked if you wanted milk.
> >>>

> >>> If you order an Americano in a coffee bar you're likely to be asked if
> >>> you want milk with it, too, but even if you say yes you'd probably get
> >>> it in a small jug so that you can add it to your taste.
> >
> >> That's as it should be. (But "coffee bar" sound so chi-chi. It wasn't
> >> just Eco's malapropism?)
> >
> > "Coffee bar" was a very 1960s expresson.
> >
>
> Exactly. To me it conjures up images of bad films made by pop stars in
> the early sixties. They couldn't be seen to be promoting alcohol, so
> they would hang out in coffee bars, not pubs.
> --

Also, though, a dedicated area for self-service of coffee, and sometimes minor foodstuffs in a hotel lobby or such, or a similar area in a hotel room, conference room, break area, etc. cf. "breakfast bar."

AN "seeker of free food" McC

[Unknown]

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Monday, March 28, 2016 at 9:46:18 AM UTC-4, PeterWD wrote:
> > On Mon, 28 Mar 2016 06:35:32 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"
> > <gram...@verizon.net> wrote:
>
> > > "Tea cake" isn't a specific item, but something from the tray or
> > > cart of offered things. Maybe a little less fancy than a
> > > petit-four.
> >
> > That may be so where you are. But:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teacake
> >
> > A teacake in England is a light yeast-based sweet bun containing
> > dried fruit, typically served toasted and buttered.
>
> Sounds like a hot cross bun without the cross. We don't seem to have
> them year-round.
>

No, that's a current bun. Teacakes are different and you almost
certainly have never encountered one, Peter. Let's try to live with it.

DC


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[Unknown]

Yes indeed.

>
> And then there are tarts.
>

And Jaffa Cakes, which aren't cakes.

DC

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[Unknown]

Yes I've seen that - I think Northern Lancs calls them that, too.

DC

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[Unknown]

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> > > Well I don't say that, but I imagine it's because beer generally

> > > comes in countable form -- a bottle or can. At a bar with friends
> > > you ask for "a pitcher."
> >

> > So, you can't say it when there's draught beer? (On tap). Like the
> > excellent San Francisco Steam Beer...
>

> "What do you have on draft?" ... "I'll have a Linkenstein, please."

>
> > Meanwhile, coffee comes in cups. Or mugs. Or cafetieres.
>
> And that's how you'd ask for it, if different sizes were on the menu.
>

> > > > Weird.
> > > >
> > > > > > (Please let's not go down
> > > > > > the Starbucks 'grande crapachino' nonsense line, I mean
> > > > > > what you get in a diner). Filter coffee, I'd guess, but
> > > > > > with or without milk?
> > > > > I haven't seen "filter coffee" in many years. As has often
> > > > > been discussed here, whether milk counts as "regular" varies
> > > > > regionally.
> > > > > > In the UK
> > > > > > you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask for
> > > > > > your coffee black...
> > > > > Do they put it in for you????
> > > > Absolutely.

> > > And, being Brits, you wouldn't consider complaining if they put in

> > > too much (too little is, presumably, reparable, but again you'd
> > > have to utter a criticism of the server).
> >

> > They always put in exactly the correct amount.
>
> Spoken like a true non-confrontationalist.

I'm obviously slipping.

DC

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[Whiskers]

On 2016-03-27, Jack Campin <bo...@purr.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In the UK you're going to get milk unless you specifically ask
>>>> for your coffee black...

>>> And if you do order it black, you are quite likely to get a little
>>> jug of milk to go with it. What kind of customer would ever use that?
>> ??? How many decades old is your experience???
>> Why would the place waste resources on someone who didn't request it
>> and wasn't paying for it?
>
> I've no idea why they do it, but I go into a lot of coffee bars
> (though not the big chains) and it nearly always happens if you
> get table service. I've encountered it within the last week.

So have I. If you average out the people who don't want any milk and
the people who want more than the tiny jug will hold it probably works
out even (except when the wobbly table results in the full jug falling
over on its way from the first type to the second type as happened to me
a few weeks ago - the next time I ordered black coffee there the
unwanted milk was served to me in the horrid little sealed airline
packages so I couldn't spill it so easily; our party were bemused that I
still apparently had to take delivery of the milk).

> Maybe somebody Taylorized the process and figured that it was
> cheaper to provide milk that wasn't used than spend the extra
> labour time on the situations where it was requested after the
> initial service.

There's probably a whole world of barrista training and certification.
Perhaps divided into different 'schools' and 'traditions' and all
invented within this decade. I know I've been refused coffee because
'none of the qualified staff are here at the moment'. Food, tea, cold
drinks; no problem. But coffee? That's too hard for normal folk.

> BTW if you ask a British person "do you take anything in your tea?"
> the commonest answer is "no, just milk". Only somebody like me
> who finds milk about as appealing as iguana urine ever notices
> anything odd in that response.

Getting 'black tea' or 'tea, no milk', can be quite an adventure in the
UK. It's easiest in a Turkish restaurant - just ask for 'Turkish tea',
which is near enough to British tea without milk and quite pleasant in
its own right. Sometimes it comes in lovely little glasses which burn
your fingers if you aren't sufficiently polite.

[Unknown]

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

> On Sunday, March 27, 2016 at 4:27:29 PM UTC-4,
> nor...@googlegroups.com wrote:
>
> > This is clearly going to come as a surprise, but we do drink coffee
> > in the UK, and it was coffee we were talking about. The distressing
> > thing about ordering tea in the US is when they come back and show
> > you a tray of infusions and say 'we have raspberry, camomile or
> > mint'.
>
> Only if you've made it clear you don't want regular tea.

My imagination then. Never happened. Not once. Certainly not about half
a dozen times. No sir...

DC

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