National anthem etiquette
Unknown
I have noticed in the past few years that when we are asked to stand
for the national anthem (of Canada or the US, but in a Canadian
venue), the request is more often than not accompanied by a request to
"remove your headwear".
Having spent time in the military, removing my headwear goes
completely against my sensibilities, and leaves me wondering when that
request started being made, and what the rationale behind it might be.
I have noticed that the US military (all? some branches?) does have a
different hat etiquette than the Canadian military, and if removing a
hat for the national anthem is a normal US military action, I wonder
if the recent addition of the request in Canada is based on that.
--
roses are #FF0000
violets are #0000FF
all my base
are belong to you
Jim Karatassos
Another non-standard post.
No and Yes. If you are in uniform, you should not remove your hat. If
you are not, you must remove your hat.
I would be willing to bet the situation gets a bit trickier when we
talk about indoor and outdoor venues and different service branches.
------------------------
From US Flag.org
§171. Conduct during playing
During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed,
all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing
the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should
remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left
shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should
render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain
this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed,
those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner
they would if the flag were displayed there.
------------------------
I would be curious to know what the code is in the UK.
Jitze
<jim.kar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>No and Yes. If you are in uniform, you should not remove your hat. If
>you are not, you must remove your hat.
>
<snip>
>
>I would be curious to know what the code is in the UK.
In Her Majesty's Colonies, approximately the same rules were
observed, i.e. uniformed personnel saluted, while the order of service
(that little piece of paper they hand you before it all starts and
which say which hymns are to be sung and when) instructs that
at the appropriate moment "gentlemen will uncover". This implies that
neither the Governor's wife nor that of the District Commissioner need
remove their florabundant chapeaux.
But on the bit about removing it with the right hand and holding it
up to the left shoulder so that the hand covers the heart - I think
that may be American. In my case I remember that it was held
resting on the right forearm which was bent at the elbow to be
parallel to the ground. Of course, the hat being a ceremonial white
pith helmet with a cascade [1] of white feathers coming out of
the top, it would have looked bloody stupid held up to the left
shoulder.
[1] Yes I meant cascade rather than cockade. The latter is a
smaller construction capable of standing upright under its own
weight. A cascade is a veritable fountain of long feathers
emerging from the top of the helmet and flowing down.
Jitze
John Swindle
>. . .
>
>But on the bit about removing it with the right hand and holding it
>up to the left shoulder so that the hand covers the heart - I think
>that may be American. In my case I remember that it was held
>resting on the right forearm which was bent at the elbow to be
>parallel to the ground. Of course, the hat being a ceremonial white
>pith helmet with a cascade [1] of white feathers coming out of
>the top, it would have looked bloody stupid held up to the left
>shoulder.
>
>[1] Yes I meant cascade rather than cockade. The latter is a
>smaller construction capable of standing upright under its own
>weight. A cascade is a veritable fountain of long feathers
>emerging from the top of the helmet and flowing down.
>
>Jitze
In this 1996 video a Golden Retriever sings "Star Spangled Banner,"
gets distracted during "Oh Canada!", but does not wear a hat:
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
wrote:
>On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 00:02:46 -0700 (PDT), Jim Karatassos
I have this distant memory that the British military salute is a
stylised and reduced version of uncovering the head. The
saluting action is the moving of the saluting hand close to the
hat ready to lift it. Note that in the British military
tradition a salute is only ever performed when a hat is being
worn. A bareheaded person never salutes.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Don Phillipson
news:006u64pkajj6fstm9...@4ax.com...
> I have noticed that the US military (all? some branches?) does have a
> different hat etiquette than the Canadian military, and if removing a
> hat for the national anthem is a normal US military action, I wonder
> if the recent addition of the request in Canada is based on that.
Basic differences between American military custom and British or
Canadian custom include:
1. "Covered" for all members of armed forces means wearing
(uniform) headdress. Americans salute whether covered or
"uncovered", British servicemen only when covered.
2. Inside church buildings, British servicemen usually remove
their headdress. Americans wear their hats or headdress
on parade inside churches. (Not many military proceedings occur
inside churches. I was present at the dedication of the American
Memorial Chapel in St. Paul's Cathedral, London, in about
1951, the first time I saw soldiers wearing headdress in church.)
--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)
John Holmes
> Of course, the hat being a ceremonial white
> pith helmet with a cascade [1] of white feathers coming out of
> the top, it would have looked bloody stupid held up to the left
> shoulder.
>
> [1] Yes I meant cascade rather than cockade. The latter is a
> smaller construction capable of standing upright under its own
> weight. A cascade is a veritable fountain of long feathers
> emerging from the top of the helmet and flowing down.
Ah, yes, that can happen when you get one of these nesting in your hat:
http://www.btinternet.com/~beechpoultry/Jap1.GIF
--
Regards
John
for mail: my initials plus a u e
at tpg dot com dot au
Alan Jones
"Jitze" <coup...@znet.com> wrote in message
news:escu64ledkrhl8cle...@4ax.com...
> On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 00:02:46 -0700 (PDT), Jim Karatassos
> <jim.kar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>No and Yes. If you are in uniform, you should not remove your hat. If
>>you are not, you must remove your hat.
>>
> <snip>
>>
>>I would be curious to know what the code is in the UK.
>
> In Her Majesty's Colonies, approximately the same rules were
> observed, i.e. uniformed personnel saluted, while the order of service
> (that little piece of paper they hand you before it all starts and
> which say which hymns are to be sung and when) instructs that
> at the appropriate moment "gentlemen will uncover". This implies that
> neither the Governor's wife nor that of the District Commissioner need
> remove their florabundant chapeaux.
>
> But on the bit about removing it with the right hand and holding it
> up to the left shoulder so that the hand covers the heart - I think
Certainly not British. No one may salute when in civilian dress: no one in
uniform may salute unless wearing a service cap or hat; no one may salute
when seated (I've just wondered whether that applies to someone in a
wheelchair - Regulations will certainly cover that situation.) If an officer
enters a room, those inferior to him or her and hatless "salute" simply by
standing to attention; the officer says something (perhaps "Stand easy",
perhaps just "Good morning") and all relax. When returning a salute:
hatless, a civilian receives the salute simply by standing to attention; a
civilian with a hat holds it Jitze describes, not across the heart. If films
are to be believed, practice in the Us is very different.
I seem to remember that normally, except on the rare occasions when "General
Salute - Present Arms!" is ordered, only the officer in charge of each group
("flight" etc) on parade salutes - the men simply remain at attention. This
would be the case, I think, when the National Anthem is played. But I may be
wrong: I haven't had to salute or be saluted for more than fifty years.
Alan Jones
R J Valentine
} "Jitze" <coup...@znet.com> wrote in message
} news:escu64ledkrhl8cle...@4ax.com...
}> On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 00:02:46 -0700 (PDT), Jim Karatassos
}> <jim.kar...@gmail.com> wrote:
}>
}>
}>>
}>>No and Yes. If you are in uniform, you should not remove your hat. If
}>>you are not, you must remove your hat.
}>>
}> <snip>
}>>
}>>I would be curious to know what the code is in the UK.
}>
}> In Her Majesty's Colonies, approximately the same rules were
}> observed, i.e. uniformed personnel saluted, while the order of service
}> (that little piece of paper they hand you before it all starts and
}> which say which hymns are to be sung and when) instructs that
}> at the appropriate moment "gentlemen will uncover". This implies that
}> neither the Governor's wife nor that of the District Commissioner need
}> remove their florabundant chapeaux.
}>
}> But on the bit about removing it with the right hand and holding it
}> up to the left shoulder so that the hand covers the heart - I think
}> that may be American. [...]
Where (in English usage) "heart" means "left lung".
} Certainly not British. No one may salute when in civilian dress: no one in
} uniform may salute unless wearing a service cap or hat; no one may salute
} when seated (I've just wondered whether that applies to someone in a
} wheelchair - Regulations will certainly cover that situation.) If an officer
} enters a room, those inferior to him or her and hatless "salute" simply by
} standing to attention; the officer says something (perhaps "Stand easy",
} perhaps just "Good morning") and all relax. When returning a salute:
} hatless, a civilian receives the salute simply by standing to attention; a
} civilian with a hat holds it Jitze describes, not across the heart. If films
} are to be believed, practice in the Us is very different.
Not that different. Whether there's a weapon involved makes a difference.
You don't take your hat off when you are carrying a weapon, but you do
inside otherwise. You don't generally salute inside, but you do when
"reporting" to an officer, especially for pay (and he [or anymore she],
being armed and hatted returns the salute) or when representing the
residents during an inspection. When you salute while carrying a rifle,
you generally do so by drawing attention to the rifle, rather than fooling
with the hat. Ronald Reagan's civilian salute when passing saluting
Marines is just plain silly and wrong-wrong-wrongity-wrong, and he should
have known better (and I hear he asked and was told you're President; you
can do anything you want).
I stopped pledging allegiance to the flag back when my first kid started
kindergarten and they wanted people to do that during PTA meetings, but
I'll still stand up while other people do it. I usually stand up while
"The Star-spangled Banner" is reminding us of British atrocities in
America or while "Maryland, My Maryland" is reminding us of Yankee
atrocities here south of Mason and Dixon's Line (and I'm willing to stand
in Texas when they play "I've Been Working on the Railroad" or in England
when they play "My Country, 'Tis of Thee", as long as other people are
also standing), but I don't usually do the left-lung thing unless it's
real formal.
Back when I worked at a Large Government Agency, people stood up when the
Director or Deputy Director came into the auditorium (and also when the
"Ällelulia Chorus" was sung), but not for other people or songs (though I
suppose they would have if the national anthem were played).
} I seem to remember that normally, except on the rare occasions when "General
} Salute - Present Arms!" is ordered, only the officer in charge of each group
} ("flight" etc) on parade salutes - the men simply remain at attention. This
} would be the case, I think, when the National Anthem is played. But I may be
} wrong: I haven't had to salute or be saluted for more than fifty years.
My father was a pilot for Pan American and flew charters onto military
bases during the Vietnam Disagreement, and he'd get saluted all the time.
He just returned the salutes and went about his business.
In basic training we were warned to salute any vehicle with a blue
sticker, and the male drivers tended to salute back, uniformed or hatted
or not. Female drivers tended to smile and wave back. Passing groups of
officers on foot, we'd spread out and let the bunch of them return salutes
to each of us individually.
We had been conditioned to look for gold braid, but a bunch of us up in
New York (City) from Fort Monmouth (where we went to transmitter-repair
school) passed a guy on the street that had a black leather strap just
like us, and we didn't notice until too late the eagle on his shoulder, so
we had to put up with a lecture about all being on the same team (after
months at Fort Dix, where the only insult worse than "trainee" was
"airman").
While I was serving in Japan with the forces that guard our naation's way
of life, we were coming out of work one day and met our platoon leader (a
warrant officer) coming in. He had a grocery bag in his right arm and a
cigar in his mouth, so of course we all saluted him and passed the time of
day. He shifted the bag to his left hand and started to salute, then
remembered the cigar and took that out of his mouth and started to salute,
then thought better of saluting with a cigar in his command and said, "Aw,
the hell with it; good morning, fellows."
I've got a blue sticker for Arlington National Cemetery, but nobody has
ever saluted my car, although an honor squad was once brought to attention
for the car in front of me that carried the post chaplain (a colonel) and
they kindly held it until after my car passed. I wave back when the
civilian guards wave me through.
--
rjv
Don Phillipson
news:g4nqpp$4q0$1...@pcls6.std.com...
> In basic training we were warned to salute any vehicle with a blue
> sticker, and the male drivers tended to salute back, uniformed or hatted
> or not. Female drivers tended to smile and wave back. Passing groups of
> officers on foot, we'd spread out and let the bunch of them return salutes
> to each of us individually. . . .
> While I was serving in Japan with the forces that guard our naation's way
> of life, we were coming out of work one day and met our platoon leader (a
> warrant officer) coming in. He had a grocery bag in his right arm and a
> cigar in his mouth, so of course we all saluted him and passed the time of
> day. He shifted the bag to his left hand and started to salute, then
> remembered the cigar and took that out of his mouth and started to salute
. . .
This post indicates two more national differences.
1. Drivers of British armed forces vehicles do not return
salutes (i.e. do not take a hand off the controls, in
the interests of safety.) Officers in vehicles return
salutes, unless they are driving.
2. Warrant officers are not saluted in the British
forces -- only commissioned officers. (Warrant rank
is semi-officer status, next above top sergeant.)
Chuck Riggs
And, therefore, never inside a building or below decks on a submarine
or ship.
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
(My email address, here, is broken)
Fred Springer
In the RN, hats are usually worn below decks while on duty, but are
usually removed as a courtesy, even by officers, when entering a mess.
Officers are only saluted on board on certain limited occasions, such as
being paid, and at other times ratings simply stand to attention and
give them room to pass. Everyone salutes the ship when stepping on board.
Submarines -- and indeed small ships in general -- are much less formal,
and salutes, strict dress codes and other ceremonial behaviour is
largely ignored, especially at sea; re-entry to a big naval base with
its more formal ways takes a bit of getting used to after a few weeks at
sea.
Mike Barnes
>------------------------
>
>From US Flag.org
>
>§171. Conduct during playing
>
>During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed,
>all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing
>the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should
>remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left
>shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should
>render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain
>this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed,
>those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner
>they would if the flag were displayed there.
>
>------------------------
>
>I would be curious to know what the code is in the UK.
Is the code you describe applicable to civilians? All this talk of
uniforms makes me think it might be talking about military personnel. As
a non-military British citizen, I wasn't aware of the existence of any
formal code for our national anthem, nor have I had any need for such
knowledge in the decades since they stopped playing the national anthem
in cinemas. Back then, the protocol was generally (1) try to avoid being
there, and failing that (2) pretend you hadn't heard it.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
the Omrud
We used to play "The Queen" (as it's known to musicians) at the
beginning of school concerts in the 70s. The audience, being already
seated and quiet, had no option but to stand and sing, or at least to
mouth the words.
--
David
Nick
>
> We used to play "The Queen" (as it's known to musicians) at the
> beginning of school concerts in the 70s. The audience, being already
> seated and quiet, had no option but to stand and sing, or at least to
> mouth the words.
I knew a conductor who was prone to getting the band to play that
opening drum flourish, wait for the audience to start to stand, and then
go straight into something else.
Don Phillipson
> >------------------------
> >
> >From US Flag.org
> >
> >§171. Conduct during playing
> >
> >During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed,
> >all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing
> >the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should
> >remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left
> >shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should
> >render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain
> >this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed,
> >those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner
> >they would if the flag were displayed there.
> >
Ans: --more or less the same as proposed above.
British military stations raised and lowered the flag
to mark the start and finish of each ordinary working
day, usually with music. Everyone within earshot
was supposed, for the duration of the music, to halt,
turn towards the flag, and remain still. Possibly
officers saluted and rankers stood to attention (I forget.)
Unknown
On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 11:59:48 +0100, Peter Duncanson (BrE) posted:
Same in the Canadian forces. Hats are worn outside, and removed
indoors (well, except for parades in parade halls or hangars).
the Omrud
We once had a stand-in drummer who started with such an almighty bang on
the timps that two trumpeters fell backwards off the low staging their
chairs were on.
--
David
Cece
Note that the U.S. Flag Law specifies "Men not in uniform." Before
hat-wearing habits changed completely, in the 1960s, a woman wore a
hat everywhere except in her own home, unless she was in a ballgown.
Men wore hats outside, taking them off when coming into a house, or an
office -- or an elevator. Women were required to wear hats in many
churches, men were not allowed to (synagogues aren't churches,
okay?). The last few years, men and boys wear hats, caps, do-rags,
or something fulfilling the function of a hat a lot more than they did
in the '70s and '80s and never, ever take them off, for any reason
whatsoever. O tempora O mores, indeed.
Frank ess
On Little Rock Air Force Base, during the Winter It Snowed And It
Stayed On The Ground, knowing full well a seated person did not
initiate a salute, and a driving driver did not salute in any case, I
spied the four-star flag on a limo heading my way. From the General's
response, I guessed Curtis LeMay was not angry when I saluted him from
my open-top MG TD: his window snapped down and he leaned out to
mid-chest and returned it.
They could have caught me, easy, if they'd wanted to. Just as Governor
Orval Faubus could have when I passed his limo on the right and
flipped him the single-finger salute on 12th Street in Little Rock
proper.
The things we do when we're twenty and foolish.
--
Frank ess
Sara Lorimer
> I stopped pledging allegiance to the flag back when my first kid started
> kindergarten and they wanted people to do that during PTA meetings, but
> I'll still stand up while other people do it.
At my neighborhood Democratic caucus a few months ago, someone tried to
lead us all in the Pledge. He messed it up, thus confiming everything
Fox News says about us...
> I usually stand up while
> "The Star-spangled Banner" is reminding us of British atrocities in
> America or while "Maryland, My Maryland" is reminding us of Yankee
> atrocities here south of Mason and Dixon's Line (and I'm willing to stand
> in Texas when they play "I've Been Working on the Railroad" or in England
> when they play "My Country, 'Tis of Thee", as long as other people are
> also standing), but I don't usually do the left-lung thing unless it's
> real formal.
I stand up when the flag goes by during parades, and have a fondness for
"The Star-Spangled Banner," but sullenly sit when they play "God Bless
America" during the 7th inning stretch.
--
SML
tony cooper
<ceceliaa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Note that the U.S. Flag Law specifies "Men not in uniform." Before
>hat-wearing habits changed completely, in the 1960s, a woman wore a
>hat everywhere except in her own home, unless she was in a ballgown.
>Men wore hats outside, taking them off when coming into a house, or an
>office -- or an elevator.
Casey and Edna Stengel in 1964.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
Unknown
On Sat, 5 Jul 2008 14:51:44 -0700, Frank ess posted:
>On Little Rock Air Force Base, during the Winter It Snowed And It
>Stayed On The Ground, knowing full well a seated person did not
>initiate a salute, and a driving driver did not salute in any case, I
>spied the four-star flag on a limo heading my way. From the General's
>response, I guessed Curtis LeMay was not angry when I saluted him from
>my open-top MG TD: his window snapped down and he leaned out to
>mid-chest and returned it.
You reminded me of a time when I was on the way to the shop (I was a
Radar Tech (Air)), and the shop was in the same hangar as the tower.
As I rounded the corner of the tower, I came face-to-face with an Air
Vice Marshal, who at the time was the RCAF's highest ranking officer.
I was still in full uniform, complete with hat, and the urge to salute
was almost irresistible. I snapped to attention, my arm came partway
up, dropped, started up again, and finally, I forced it to my side.
We were not supposed to salute on the hangar line, under any
circumstances. Normally, we would not be wearing hats, but even if we
were, the hangar line was a place we did not salute.
Later, the Flight Sergeant in charge of the telecom shop approached me
and with more than a few chuckles, told me that he had received
several comments about my actions, one from the Base Commanding
Officer, one from the SWO (Station Warrant Officer), and one from the
officer in charge of the honour guard greeting the Air Vice Marshal.
The comments were all of the same type. They wanted to congratulate me
for "doing the right thing", and to thank me for the comic relief.
Apparently my dancing right hand was a source of amusement for all
present.
Ian Noble
Knew, or heard of? Because that's a famous gag from the opening piece
of one of Gerrard Hoffnung's wonderful Music Festivals.
Cheers - Ian
Ian Noble
In my case, in the days when the anthem was played at the end of every
cinema performance, the protocol was to stand rigidly in place until
the thing had played, to the intense annoyance of half the row who
were trying to get out.
Cheers - Ian
Nick
Almost certainly knew someone who wasn't afraid of stealing a good joke
when he saw one.
Chuck Riggs
Who's the old girl giving the finger to?
Jitze
<fr...@dropthis.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>In my case, in the days when the anthem was played at the end of every
>cinema performance, the protocol was to stand rigidly in place until
>the thing had played, to the intense annoyance of half the row who
>were trying to get out.
>
In my youth, the anthem was played *before* the performance, and
was followed immediate by the manadatory excercising of the "fire
curtain" to prove that it was still operable. This was a large,
presumably fire-proof cloth which would would be lowered
from above and behind the proscenium somewhere, and then
raised again. I assume this was mandated by some fire fire regulation,
probably generated in response to some disastrous theater fire in the
past.
Since this was out in the colonies and we only had two cinemas in
town, it must have been a regulation that got imported from the
mother country. Did theygo through the same rigamarole in the U.K.?
Jitze
Jitze
<tony_co...@earthlink.net> wrote:
...and reporters could interview their subjects and take notes while
puffing at a pipe clamped firmly in a manly jaw.
Jitze
Fred Springer
was always at the end of the evening, with a picture of HM and/or Union
Jack projected on the screen. I can't now recall for sure what the
drill was in theatres, but I think the anthem was also played at the
end, after the curtain calls.
As for the safety curtain, that was a legal requirement only in live
theatres above a certain size, and was to safeguard the audience against
a fire on or backstage. I believe it depends on local regulations,
rather than national legislation, when it has to be lowered, and it
certainly still applies in London, where it is lowered both before the
performance and during the interval. Theatre people call it "the iron"
-- though nowadays it isn't necessarily made of metal.
Jitze
Aaah - what I neglected to mention was that the two "cinemas"
we had in town did double duty as theaters with a stage. Nothing
fancy, but useable at Christmas time for pantomimes and such
like. The screen on which the film was projected was rolled down
like a bit of scenery. And the safety curtain was in front of that.
So that would account for the safety curtain ritual occurring
in a "cinema".
Jitze
the Omrud
In Coventry in the 60s, at least, the Iron had extracts from the
regulations printed on it. Something like "The safety curtain shall be
lowered and raised in the presence of the audience", in very large letters.
--
David
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I think I recall one, or more, that had adverts painted on it,
as well as the regulation extract.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<usenet...@gEXPUNGEmail.com> wrote:
I assume that it was this was what Churchill had in mind when he
made his speech at Westminster College in Fulton, Missouri on
March 5, 1946:
http://www.historyguide.org/europe/churchill.html
From Stettin in the Baltic to Trieste in the Adriatic an
iron curtain has descended across the Continent.
HVS
Flanders & Swann did a song based on the Lord Chamberlain's
regulations:
- Smoking is permitted in the auditorium.
- The safety curtainmust be lowered/raised inthe presence of each
audience.
- The public may leave at the end of each performance by all the
exit doors, and all such doors must at that time be open.
- All gangways, passage and staircases must be kept entirely free
from chairs or any other obstructions.
--
Cheers, Harvey
CanEng and BrEng, indiscriminately mixed
R H Draney
>
>Flanders & Swann did a song based on the Lord Chamberlain's
>regulations:
>
>from chairs or any other obstructions.
In those days, I could see a wheelchair being considered an obstruction, a
situation F&S were no doubt keenly aware of....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
Richard Maurer
In Coventry in the 60s, at least, the Iron had
extracts from the regulations printed on it.
Something like "The safety curtain shall be
lowered and raised in the presence of the audience",
in very large letters.
When it was made of iron, was it one solid heavy manifold,
or were there small holes that allowed a view of
things behind?
-- ---------------------------------------------
Richard Maurer To reply, remove half
Sunnyvale, California of a homonym of a synonym for also.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Pat Durkin
news:g4tev...@drn.newsguy.com
> HVS filted:
>>
>> Flanders & Swann did a song based on the Lord Chamberlain's
>> regulations:
>>
>> - All gangways, passage and staircases must be kept entirely free
>> from chairs or any other obstructions.
>
> In those days, I could see a wheelchair being considered an
> obstruction, a situation F&S were no doubt keenly aware of....r
I have been mildly irritated, when traveling by air, to find the people
with walkers and wheelchairs being loaded on the planes before the
able-bodied people. Ok, so it is a courtesy, but I should think the
able-bodied could load first, giving the handicapped people a last
chance to visit the toilet, and to spend less time in the cramped
environment of the plane.
Mildly, I said. But just last week, joining senior citizens on a cruise
around one of our lakes (like the Minnow, you know. I boarded the Betty
Lou for a three hour cruise) once again I found the disabled being
boarded first. The lake being a bit high in these flooded times, their
boarding required a stool, and two people to hand them up, as well as to
conduct them through some crowded aisles.
We didn't need life-jackets, and no one gave us an emergency drill.
They got the same priority in disembarking. (Ob AUE: I have heard
"debarking", but _I_ reserve that for trees in paper mills, or giving
dogs the silent treatment.) But all the same, as we pulled away from the
dock, and just now again, it occurs to me that perhaps these people
would be given, like "women and children first", a priority in getting
off in case of our hitting an iceberg. Has anyone seen regulations
about such emergency priorities?
(The airways appear to be governed by many of the same rules as the
seaways, and the probabilities of having time for an orderly exit during
a plane crash, are exceedingly rare, but I wonder. If the flight crew
suddenly were to get sick, or there should be a landing gear problem,
giving time for a careful emergency exit, are the wheelchair people the
first in line at the chutes? Do they, perhaps, queue up at the
emergency exits?)
R H Draney
>
>I have been mildly irritated, when traveling by air, to find the people
>with walkers and wheelchairs being loaded on the planes before the
>able-bodied people. Ok, so it is a courtesy, but I should think the
>able-bodied could load first, giving the handicapped people a last
>chance to visit the toilet, and to spend less time in the cramped
>environment of the plane.
The cabin crew need time to get the wheelchairs and/or walkers down to the cargo
hold...based on my experiences, this process includes the time necessary to bend
the frames of folding wheelchairs in such a way that they can't be unfolded at
the destination without the use of metalworking tools....r
J. J. Lodder
> On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 10:12:45 +0100, Ian Noble
> <fr...@dropthis.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
> >
> >In my case, in the days when the anthem was played at the end of every
> >cinema performance, the protocol was to stand rigidly in place until
> >the thing had played, to the intense annoyance of half the row who
> >were trying to get out.
> >
>
> In my youth, the anthem was played *before* the performance, and
> was followed immediate by the manadatory excercising of the "fire
> curtain" to prove that it was still operable. This was a large,
> presumably fire-proof cloth which would would be lowered
> from above and behind the proscenium somewhere, and then
> raised again. I assume this was mandated by some fire fire regulation,
> probably generated in response to some disastrous theater fire in the
> past.
Sure, and an ultra-safe 100% asbest curtain too,
Jan
Mike L
Like Gerard himself: the immortal bricks story apparently came,
unacknowledged, from a winning entry in a New Statesman competition.
--
Mike.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<mike_l...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>On Jul 6, 1:15?pm, Nick <1-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>> Ian Noble wrote:
>> > On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 18:17:44 +0100, Nick
>> > <1-nos...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>>
>> >> the Omrud wrote:
>> >>> We used to play "The Queen" (as it's known to musicians) at the
>> >>> beginning of school concerts in the 70s. ?The audience, being already
>> >>> seated and quiet, had no option but to stand and sing, or at least to
>> >>> mouth the words.
>> >> I knew a conductor who was prone to getting the band to play that
>> >> opening drum flourish, wait for the audience to start to stand, and then
>> >> ?go straight into something else.
>>
>> > Knew, or heard of? ?Because that's a famous gag from the opening piece
>> > of one of Gerrard Hoffnung's wonderful Music Festivals.
>>
>> Almost certainly knew someone who wasn't afraid of stealing a good joke
>> when he saw one.
>
>Like Gerard himself: the immortal bricks story apparently came,
>unacknowledged, from a winning entry in a New Statesman competition.
Naughty of him.
However, his telling of the story (his delivery of the bricks?)
was inimitable.
R H Draney
Would that were the case....r
Sara Lorimer
> In my youth, the anthem was played *before* the performance, and
> was followed immediate by the manadatory excercising of the "fire
> curtain" to prove that it was still operable. This was a large,
> presumably fire-proof cloth which would would be lowered
> from above and behind the proscenium somewhere, and then
> raised again. I assume this was mandated by some fire fire regulation,
> probably generated in response to some disastrous theater fire in the
> past.
>
> Since this was out in the colonies and we only had two cinemas in
> town, it must have been a regulation that got imported from the
> mother country. Did theygo through the same rigamarole in the U.K.?
I remember seeing it done when I went to see the Mouse Trap in the
1970s. I don't remember the play, but I remember the curtain and the
anthem... (My seeing this performance has come up more than once here,
with the suggestion that they clung to theater rituals to please us
tourists.)
--
SML
Nick
I have a fondness for Noel Murphy's sung version of it.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
I don't think I've heard that. I imagine that I would remember
it if I had.
Nick
A utube search for Noel Murphy produces several folk singers doing
covers of it, but not his original.
Jitze
<1-no...@temporary-address.org.uk> wrote:
>
>A utube search for Noel Murphy produces several folk singers doing
>covers of it, but not his original.
I didn't know that this tale had been versified and set to music, so I
followed it up and was duly entertained. But in doing so I came across
a related Utube snippet o fpart of a Mythbusters episode about bricks
and barrels, but dubbed in some furrin langauge which I don't
recognize:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry0prEzc-bU&NR=1
Can anybody finger the language in use here?
Jitze
Skitt
> Nick wrote:
>> A utube search for Noel Murphy produces several folk singers doing
>> covers of it, but not his original.
>
> I didn't know that this tale had been versified and set to music, so I
> followed it up and was duly entertained. But in doing so I came across
> a related Utube snippet o fpart of a Mythbusters episode about bricks
> and barrels, but dubbed in some furrin langauge which I don't
> recognize:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry0prEzc-bU&NR=1
>
> Can anybody finger the language in use here?
Well, the contributor of the clip is from Turkey.
--
Skitt (AmE)
Hatunen
>
>I have noticed in the past few years that when we are asked to stand
>for the national anthem (of Canada or the US, but in a Canadian
>venue), the request is more often than not accompanied by a request to
>"remove your headwear".
>
>Having spent time in the military, removing my headwear goes
>completely against my sensibilities, and leaves me wondering when that
>request started being made, and what the rationale behind it might be.
>
>I have noticed that the US military (all? some branches?) does have a
>different hat etiquette than the Canadian military, and if removing a
>hat for the national anthem is a normal US military action, I wonder
>if the recent addition of the request in Canada is based on that.
For US military personnel, if in uniform you should render a
normal salute, rather than removing headgear.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
* Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
* My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
Hatunen
<mikeb...@bluebottle.com> wrote:
>In alt.usage.english, Jim Karatassos wrote:
>>------------------------
>>
>>From US Flag.org
>>
>>§171. Conduct during playing
>>
>>During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed,
>>all present except those in uniform should stand at attention facing
>>the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men not in uniform should
>>remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it at the left
>>shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should
>>render the military salute at the first note of the anthem and retain
>>this position until the last note. When the flag is not displayed,
>>those present should face toward the music and act in the same manner
>>they would if the flag were displayed there.
>>
>>------------------------
>>
>>I would be curious to know what the code is in the UK.
>
>Is the code you describe applicable to civilians? All this talk of
>uniforms makes me think it might be talking about military personnel. As
>a non-military British citizen, I wasn't aware of the existence of any
>formal code for our national anthem, nor have I had any need for such
>knowledge in the decades since they stopped playing the national anthem
>in cinemas. Back then, the protocol was generally (1) try to avoid being
>there, and failing that (2) pretend you hadn't heard it.
It's all part of the flag code, which is incorporated into the
United States Code, Title 36, Chapter 10, but only parts of it
bear any sort of legal penalties. See
http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html and scroll down. Note that
it's headed "Patriotic Customs". As to the National Anthem:
"Sect 171. Conduct during playing
"During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is
displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at
attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men
not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right
hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the
heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at
the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the
last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should
face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if
the flag were displayed there."
Hatunen
<fr...@dropthis.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>In my case, in the days when the anthem was played at the end of every
>cinema performance, the protocol was to stand rigidly in place until
>the thing had played, to the intense annoyance of half the row who
>were trying to get out.
When we were livign in Montreal in the 1960s an American couple
came to visit us. One evening they decided to got to a movie and
they went off to the last show of the evening.. When they came
back they told us that it was easy to get out of the theater
because after the movie some music got played and everyone just
stood up and so they just slipped through the crowd and out the
door. They were a bit nonplussed when I told them the music was
"O, Canada" and "God Save the Queen".
Roland Hutchinson
Notice all those "should"s rather than "shall"s. This and similar portions
of the code not only contains no penalties for violations, it also is
written is such a manner that it is impossible to violate. There is no
legal requirement to do what the law says you should do -- the law requires
you to do only what it says you must do.
Furthermore, if there were requirements for flag ceremonies imposed on
citizens and expressed with "shall" they would be struck down in about two
seconds by the courts -- even by the current Supreme Court -- as a
violation of freedom-of-expression guarantees implicit in the First
Amendment. (This has actually happend to anti-flag-desecration laws that
were inserted.)
There is a provision against using the flag for certain kinds of
_commercial_ speech (a less-protected category than political speech)
within the District of Columbia in the code. I wonder if that has yet
received judicial scrutiny.
--
Roland Hutchinson Will play viola da gamba for food.
NB mail to my.spamtrap [at] verizon.net is heavily filtered to
remove spam. If your message looks like spam I may not see it.
Cece
> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 00:44:12 -0600, Oleg Lego <> wrote:
>
> >I have noticed in the past few years that when we are asked to stand
> >for the national anthem (of Canada or the US, but in a Canadian
> >venue), the request is more often than not accompanied by a request to
> >"remove your headwear".
>
> >Having spent time in the military, removing my headwear goes
> >completely against my sensibilities, and leaves me wondering when that
> >request started being made, and what the rationale behind it might be.
>
> >I have noticed that the US military (all? some branches?) does have a
> >different hat etiquette than the Canadian military, and if removing a
> >hat for the national anthem is a normal US military action, I wonder
> >if the recent addition of the request in Canada is based on that.
>
> For US military personnel, if in uniform you should render a
> normal salute, rather than removing headgear.
>
> --
> * Tucson Arizona, out where the cacti grow *
> * My typos & mispellings are intentional copyright traps *
The removing the headgear bit in the U.S. Flag Code is for men who are
not in uniform, both military in civvies and civilians. It's an old
law, and codifies social mores of the mid-twentieth century and
earlier. Okay?
Hatunen
<ceceliaa...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Jul 8, 10:00 pm, Hatunen <hatu...@cox.net> wrote:
>> On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 00:44:12 -0600, Oleg Lego <> wrote:
>>
>> >I have noticed in the past few years that when we are asked to stand
>> >for the national anthem (of Canada or the US, but in a Canadian
>> >venue), the request is more often than not accompanied by a request to
>> >"remove your headwear".
>>
>> >Having spent time in the military, removing my headwear goes
>> >completely against my sensibilities, and leaves me wondering when that
>> >request started being made, and what the rationale behind it might be.
>>
>> >I have noticed that the US military (all? some branches?) does have a
>> >different hat etiquette than the Canadian military, and if removing a
>> >hat for the national anthem is a normal US military action, I wonder
>> >if the recent addition of the request in Canada is based on that.
>>
>> For US military personnel, if in uniform you should render a
>> normal salute, rather than removing headgear.
>>
>The removing the headgear bit in the U.S. Flag Code is for men who are
>not in uniform, both military in civvies and civilians. It's an old
>law, and codifies social mores of the mid-twentieth century and
>earlier. Okay?
Okay. Sure. See my other posts.
--
************* DAVE HATUNEN (hat...@cox.net) *************
Mike Barnes
Thanks for the information and references. It seems that the answer is,
in short, that the code does apply to civilians, but they (unlike
military personnel) are unlikely to suffer a penalty for any
transgression.
Which leaves me wondering whether this formal code (specifically as
regards the National Anthem and the flag) is something that every
American is taught when young and knows in intimate detail, or whether
(as in the UK) citizens come to understand the customs by simple
observation.
And whether any non-observance of the code by a civilian would generally
be regarded as simple bad manners or as transgression of a particular
provision of the code.
And to what extent the code applies to foreigners.
And to what extent the code applies when outside the US.
Etc.
--
Mike Barnes
Cheshire, England
Roland Hutchinson
I believe even military personnel are not penalized for transgressions of
this code (which is simply a statement of customs that somehow incorporated
as non-binding "suggestions" in the law). They would, however, presumably
be in violation of standing orders that implement the customs described,
and could be penalized for that.
> Which leaves me wondering whether this formal code (specifically as
> regards the National Anthem and the flag) is something that every
> American is taught when young and knows in intimate detail,
It is not. I think we may have gone over it in the Boy Scouts (or rather,
the Cub Scouts), however.
> or whether
> (as in the UK) citizens come to understand the customs by simple
> observation.
Some of them aren't even widely observered. People stand for the anthem,
for example, but don't necessarily remove hats and don't place their hand
on their heart.
> And whether any non-observance of the code by a civilian would generally
> be regarded as simple bad manners or as transgression of a particular
> provision of the code.
If noticed, it would be construed as bad manners or political protest or
simple indifference or a sign of membership in certain minority religious
groups.
> And to what extent the code applies to foreigners.
IIRC it makes special provision for foreigners: they are to stand at
attention as a courtesy but not salute.
> And to what extent the code applies when outside the US.
Good question.
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
>
>I have noticed in the past few years that when we are asked to stand
>for the national anthem (of Canada or the US, but in a Canadian
>venue), the request is more often than not accompanied by a request to
>"remove your headwear".
>
>Having spent time in the military, removing my headwear goes
>completely against my sensibilities, and leaves me wondering when that
>request started being made, and what the rationale behind it might be.
>
>I have noticed that the US military (all? some branches?) does have a
>different hat etiquette than the Canadian military, and if removing a
>hat for the national anthem is a normal US military action, I wonder
>if the recent addition of the request in Canada is based on that.
A few weeks before your original post, the annual Queen's
Birthday Parade, aka Trooping the Colour, took place in the UK.
As each group of soldiers, mounted or on foot, passed the Queen
she, standing, acknowledged the salute of the officer leading
the group with a nod.
Two days after your post an article appeared in The Times about
saluting protocol on the Royal Yacht Britannia[1]:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4282483.ece
From The Times
July 7, 2008
A nodding acquaintance with royalty: how Britannia's crew
were taught to stay in line
Michael Evans Defence Editor
The select few chosen to serve on the Royal Yacht Britannia
had to learn when to nod and not to nod as part of their
duties on one of the Royal Navy's most sought-after
postings.
What to do should a member of the Royal Family happen to
pass while the deck was being scrubbed was another of the
challenges that faced the crew.
The protocols, rules and accepted modes of conduct were laid
down in the "precedent book" for crew members, now published
by the Ministry of Defence.
A nodding acquaintance with members of the Royal Family on
board was one of the stipulations - although in this case
"the nod" required the following manoeuvre: "Lower your head
forward until your chin touches your chest momentarily and
then raise your head to an upright position. The whole
sequence takes about one second.
"There is no need to bend at the waist in the best Sir
Walter Raleigh style," the protocol memorandum said under
the heading: "Forms of address and nodding by Royal Yacht
officers and Royal Yachtsmen."
Under a sub-heading, the memo, dated May 19, 1982, said: "To
nod or not to nod?" The answer is that a nod was required
when anyone entitled to this form of obeisance "enters or
leaves the Wardroom, Royal Drawing Room or on to the
Verandah Deck but not [underlined] when they enter or leave
Church in the Royal Dining Room".
Additionally: "Nod when on deck with a cap off and anyone
entitled approaches. If you have a cap on, salute in the
normal way but do not nod."
It was deemed appropriate to "nod with cap on when receiving
a handshake" from a member of the Royal Family when arriving
on board or disembarking at the "Royal Gangway".
All adult members of the Royal Family were entitled to the
nodding routine. Younger ones were to be treated
differently. "Private secretaries will advise on the address
of younger members who have not left school. Normally they
will be addressed by their Christian names and not accorded
a nod."
....
ObAUE: To me a "yacht" is by default a light sailing vessel. It
is strange to see the non-officer sailors on the motor vessel
HMY Britannia described as "yachtsmen".
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Yacht_Britannia
Roland Hutchinson
> ObAUE: To me a "yacht" is by default a light sailing vessel. It
> is strange to see the non-officer sailors on the motor vessel
> HMY Britannia described as "yachtsmen".
_Royal_ Yacht, innit. The King-sized model, by definition. (AmE
also: "Texas-sized")
Leslie Danks
[...]
> ObAUE: To me a "yacht" is by default a light sailing vessel. It
> is strange to see the non-officer sailors on the motor vessel
> HMY Britannia described as "yachtsmen".
Naah, mate. This is a yacht:
<http://www.yachting-greece.com/Christina_O.htm>
--
Les
John Kane
> On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 10:12:45 +0100, Ian Noble
>
> <fr...@dropthis.clara.co.uk> wrote:
> >In my case, in the days when the anthem was played at the end of every
> >cinema performance, the protocol was to stand rigidly in place until
> >the thing had played, to the intense annoyance of half the row who
> >were trying to get out.
>
> When we were livign in Montreal in the 1960s an American couple
> came to visit us. One evening they decided to got to a movie and
> they went off to the last show of the evening.. When they came
> back they told us that it was easy to get out of the theater
> because after the movie some music got played and everyone just
> stood up and so they just slipped through the crowd and out the
> door. They were a bit nonplussed when I told them the music was
> "O, Canada" and "God Save the Queen".
My mother told the story of some American friends of hers appauding at
the end of the anthem. I suppose it was possible.
John Kane Kingston ON Canada
Peter Duncanson (BrE)
<my.sp...@verizon.net> wrote:
>Peter Duncanson (BrE) wrote:
>
>> ObAUE: To me a "yacht" is by default a light sailing vessel. It
>> is strange to see the non-officer sailors on the motor vessel
>> HMY Britannia described as "yachtsmen".
>
>_Royal_ Yacht, innit.
It seems to have two designations: The Royal Yacht Britannia and
HMY (Her Majesty's Yacht) Britannia.
At a guess I'd say that HMY Britannia is the more official and
formal. It is in line with Royal Navy ships' names being
prefixed with HMS (Her Majesty's Ship).
> The King-sized model, by definition. (AmE
>also: "Texas-sized")
--
Maria C.
> Mike Barnes wrote, in part:
>> Which leaves me wondering whether this formal code (specifically as
>> regards the National Anthem and the flag) is something that every
>> American is taught when young and knows in intimate detail,
>
> It is not. I think we may have gone over it in the Boy Scouts (or
> rather, the Cub Scouts), however.
We covered the matter in Girl Scouts, and also in grade school.
>> or whether
>> (as in the UK) citizens come to understand the customs by simple
>> observation.
>
> Some of them aren't even widely observered. People stand for the
> anthem, for example, but don't necessarily remove hats and don't
> place their hand on their heart.
Yes. The hand-over-heart thing is something I don't remember doing very
much at all. However: Many times when the National Anthem was being
played, I was singing in the choir. The singers did not put their hands
over their hearts. (I think that's still the case.)
>> And whether any non-observance of the code by a civilian would
>> generally be regarded as simple bad manners or as transgression of a
>> particular provision of the code.
>
> If noticed, it would be construed as bad manners or political protest
> or simple indifference or a sign of membership in certain minority
> religious groups.
If the people in the audience stand (if they are able) and sing -- or
even pretend to sing -- I'd think that's sufficient. Not doing the
hand-over-heart thing would not necessarily be seen as failing to comply
with the rules. A man, though, would be expected to remove his hat -- I
think. (At an outdoor event, In the hot summer sun, with worries of skin
cancer, leaving one's hat on is not going to trouble a whole lot of
people. Almost all men, though, do remove their hats.)
Re the hand-over-heart: I connect that with the Pledge of Alliegance.
It's necessary then, but not (in common custom) for the anthem.
It's all for showing respect -- or, if one is a protestor, for making
sure everyone knows that you want to make a dissenting statement by
calling negative attention to yourself rather than by taking positive
steps to correct what is wrong. That's just my thinking, of course. I do
lack some patience when it comes to deliberate disruption of an event
which has no connection with the subject of one's protest.
--
Maria C.
Don Aitken
<ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>On Sat, 05 Jul 2008 00:44:12 -0600, Oleg Lego <> wrote:
>
>>
>>I have noticed in the past few years that when we are asked to stand
>>for the national anthem (of Canada or the US, but in a Canadian
>>venue), the request is more often than not accompanied by a request to
>>"remove your headwear".
>>
>>Having spent time in the military, removing my headwear goes
>>completely against my sensibilities, and leaves me wondering when that
>>request started being made, and what the rationale behind it might be.
>>
>>I have noticed that the US military (all? some branches?) does have a
>>different hat etiquette than the Canadian military, and if removing a
>>hat for the national anthem is a normal US military action, I wonder
>>if the recent addition of the request in Canada is based on that.
>
>A few weeks before your original post, the annual Queen's
>Birthday Parade, aka Trooping the Colour, took place in the UK.
>
>As each group of soldiers, mounted or on foot, passed the Queen
>she, standing, acknowledged the salute of the officer leading
>the group with a nod.
>
Until a few years ago she attended in uniform (and on horesback) and
returned the salute in the normal way
>Two days after your post an article appeared in The Times about
>saluting protocol on the Royal Yacht Britannia[1]:
>http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4282483.ece
>
> From The Times
> July 7, 2008
> A nodding acquaintance with royalty: how Britannia's crew
> were taught to stay in line
> Michael Evans Defence Editor
>
[snip]
The "nod", in both cases, is actually a bow, sometimes called a "head
bow". Bowing from the waist plays no part in British royal etiquette,
so this is actually the only kind of bow which is used. The Times
ought, of course, to have known this, as ought the Ministry of
Defence.
--
Don Aitken
Mail to the From: address is not read.
To email me, substitute "clara.co.uk" for "freeuk.com"
Maria C.
>
> My mother told the story of some American friends of hers appauding at
> the end of the anthem. I suppose it was possible.
In the US, the saying is that the last two words of the national anthem
are "play ball." There is generally a cheer at that time.
--
Maria C.
Mike Lyle
> On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 13:32:00 +0100, "Peter Duncanson (BrE)"
> <ma...@peterduncanson.net> wrote:
>
>> From The Times
>> July 7, 2008
>> A nodding acquaintance with royalty: how Britannia's crew
>> were taught to stay in line
>> Michael Evans Defence Editor
>>
> [snip]
>
> The "nod", in both cases, is actually a bow, sometimes called a "head
> bow". Bowing from the waist plays no part in British royal etiquette,
> so this is actually the only kind of bow which is used. The Times
> ought, of course, to have known this, as ought the Ministry of
> Defence.
Which raises the interesting question of the Anglican head-bow to the
altar in Church (we'll discount genuflexion for now, class). Is this
salute to the crucifix on the altar, or to the royal arms formerly
displayed up thereabouts?
--
Mike.
R J Valentine
...
} Which raises the interesting question of the Anglican head-bow to the
} altar in Church (we'll discount genuflexion for now, class). Is this
} salute to the crucifix on the altar, or to the royal arms formerly
} displayed up thereabouts?
I don't know from Anglicans, but the (Roman) Catholics are bowing a lot
anymore, where they hardly ever did at all (not counting the formerly
obligatory head bow at the mention of the name of Jesus (generally during
even silent Hail Marys, so you could track someone's progress through a
rosary)). Probably opinions differ on just who is doing what and why;
but, where there used to be just a simple genuflexion for all occasions
back when the altar was stacked with a tabernacle (the gold cabinet for
the ciboriums with the pre-consecrated communion wafers) and a crucifix
(and the altar classically contained a relic of a saint, plus there's like
flowers and candles, so you could concentrate on what inspired you), now
the tabernacle is ideally supposed to be off to the side but in view of
most of the church area (so it doesn't distract from the liturgy being
celebrated), and there's supposed to be at most one crucifix visible --
and as often as not that's off-center -- from the sanctuary proper. The
only thing genuflectable is the preconsecrated hosts, and then only
insofar as they are construed as the body, blood, soul, and divinity of
the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, insofar as the One True God is
understood in Trinitarian aspects. But the genuflexion rays no longer go
straight up the aisles like they used to, so there's a _lot_ less
genuflexion going on. It is wrong in so many ways to genuflect or bow to
a crucifix, but there seems to be some kissing of the feet going on on
Good Friday, so there is no telling what answer you'd get from the man in
the pew (as it were). There tends to be an attempt at a waist bow from
lay lectors going up to read, and that tends (in places I've been at
recently) to be toward the altar, as distinct from the crucifix, the
tebernacle, and the celebrant. People who sit up front seem to bow to
something a little before receiving communion, but they do it twice when
they also drink from the cup, so presumably it's once to the ciborium full
of consecrated wafers and once to the cup of consecrated wine (but I can't
see bowing to anything once the wafer had been received (under concepts
like the U.S. flag not being dipped to anything or anyone in parades and
the processional cross not participating in any bowing that might go on
before the recessional parade), and it'd be wrong to treat them
differently, so that pretty much eliminates both).
So my guess is that most of the Catholic bowing is being done by people
who have been catechized to do so and mainly to the altar, construed as a
holy spot, and certainly not to the royal arms. You've got to hope that
it's not to the crucifix, but there's just no telling.
To digress just a bit, when there's a deacon assisting, he (and in RC
circles lately it's a he, the NT notwithstanding) often carries the
separate Gospel book like a championship belt is carried toward the ring
before a boxing match. So it's possible that some of the bowing is to the
spot where it is placed on the altar, when it is part of the proceedings.
But the English usage question remains whether it's still called a
processional cross during the recessional thing, and how come that's not
called a recession, rather than a recessional or another procession. Or
is it?
--
rjv
Pat Durkin
news:SI7dk.13617$xZ.1...@nlpi070.nbdc.sbc.com
My early elementary school years occurred during WWII, and most
employing signs of
patriotism were instilled with a great romantic spirit.
http://www.usflag.org/poetry.html
THE FLAG GOES BY
Henry Holcomb Bennett
Hats off! Along the street there comes A blare of bugles, a ruffle of
drums, A flash of color beneath the sky: Hats off! The flag is passing
by!
We chanted this over and over, especially in rehearsing for Flag Day.
The words are still enough to bring a lump to my throat, a tear to my
eye. I think that we children stood breathlessly at the side of the
road for the parade to start, hand on heart, jiggling with anticipation.
But nowadays, mention a parade? I am off in the opposite direction!
Paul Wolff
bows, I don't know from Anglicans who aren't at the higher end of the
slope, but up there with the bells and whist-- just kidding, smells,
it's a matter neither of mere nodding nor of bowing in the full-bodied
manner, but bowing the head purposefully as a gesture of humility and, I
suppose respect. I'd say these Anglican bows are aimed at the altar
when they are performed during ambulations, or are not aimed at all, as
at the name of Jesus during the recitation of the creed. The hymn says
"at the name of Jesus, every knee shall bow", but we don't do the
knee-bow any more, if ever we did. Or is that just a kneel? With the
average age of a typical Anglican congregation being what it is, bowing
the knee could bring the proceedings to an unplanned hiatus, if not
close, while assisted risings took place all over.
--
Paul
Evan Kirshenbaum
I attend a lot of sporting events, and a well performed anthem
(American or Canadian, although the Canadian one is less difficult to
do well) will almost always get appreciative applause.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Now and then an innocent man is sent
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |to the legislature.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 | Kim Hubbard
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com
(650)857-7572
Robert Bannister
> "Sect 171. Conduct during playing
>
> "During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is
> displayed, all present except those in uniform should stand at
> attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart. Men
> not in uniform should remove their headdress with their right
> hand and hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the
> heart. Persons in uniform should render the military salute at
> the first note of the anthem and retain this position until the
> last note. When the flag is not displayed, those present should
> face toward the music and act in the same manner they would if
> the flag were displayed there."
>
Are those, who have the heart on the "wrong" side or just don't know
where it is, shot?
--
Rob Bannister
Robert Bannister
> It's all for showing respect -- or, if one is a protestor, for making
> sure everyone knows that you want to make a dissenting statement by
> calling negative attention to yourself rather than by taking positive
> steps to correct what is wrong. That's just my thinking, of course. I do
> lack some patience when it comes to deliberate disruption of an event
> which has no connection with the subject of one's protest.
>
On the other hand, at important sporting functions, they usually get
some well-known (to those who know those sorts of things) pop star to
sing "Advance Australia Fair". These singers usually mangle the song so
painfully, it is hard to take the thing seriously, let alone with
respect. Nevertheless, most people stand and more than a few sing the
words of at least the first verse.
--
Rob Bannister
R H Draney
>
>I attend a lot of sporting events, and a well performed anthem
>(American or Canadian, although the Canadian one is less difficult to
>do well) will almost always get appreciative applause.
The Canadian one has the advantage of having been written in the range of the
human voice....r
--
What good is being an executive if you never get to execute anyone?
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
>>
>>I attend a lot of sporting events, and a well performed anthem
>>(American or Canadian, although the Canadian one is less difficult to
>>do well) will almost always get appreciative applause.
>
> The Canadian one has the advantage of having been written in the
> range of the human voice....r
This Fourth of July, I heard a singer perform "O Land of Mine,
America", which was written by George Gershwin for a New York
_American_ contest to find a new national anthem. (It took second
place.) On hearing it, my thought was that the person who wrote "O
Canada" had had it in mind, as there are definite similarities, but
looking up the latter, I see that "O Canada" was written in 1880, so
presumably the influence went the other way.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |Sometimes I think the surest sign
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |that intelligent life exists
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |elsewhere in the universe is that
|none of it has tried to contact us.
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com | Calvin
(650)857-7572
Maria C.
> My early elementary school years occurred during WWII, and most
> employing signs of
> patriotism were instilled with a great romantic spirit.
Mine began in 1949, when I was six. (No kindergarten for me.) Patriotism
was a given in any school setting then, as I recall it.
> http://www.usflag.org/poetry.html
> THE FLAG GOES BY
> Henry Holcomb Bennett
> Hats off! Along the street there comes A blare of bugles, a ruffle of
> drums, A flash of color beneath the sky: Hats off! The flag is passing
> by!
>
> We chanted this over and over, especially in rehearsing for Flag Day.
> The words are still enough to bring a lump to my throat, a tear to my
> eye. I think that we children stood breathlessly at the side of the
> road for the parade to start, hand on heart, jiggling with
> anticipation.
> But nowadays, mention a parade? I am off in the opposite direction!
I still choke up at parades, especially when there are servicemen taking
part. It's the uniforms that bring the emotion, I guess. (My husband was
in the Army before I met him. That was a point much in his favor (for
me, who came from a family where military service for the men was normal
and expected).
--
Maria C.
Frank ess
Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
> "Maria C." <non...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
>> John Kane wrote:
>>>
>>> My mother told the story of some American friends of hers
>>> appauding at the end of the anthem. I suppose it was possible.
>>
>> In the US, the saying is that the last two words of the national
>> anthem are "play ball." There is generally a cheer at that time.
>
> I attend a lot of sporting events, and a well performed anthem
> (American or Canadian, although the Canadian one is less difficult
> to do well) will almost always get appreciative applause.
Reminding me of a "pet peeve" : the "artist" adds touches of melisma,
wrenching MY anthem from its comfortable, meaningful niche and
attempting to make it his/hers. If I am present, I stick my
forefingers in my ears; if witnessing via TV, I change channels, and
often find some reason to not return (sponsors please note).
--
Frank ess
Maria C.
>
> On the other hand, at important sporting functions, they usually get
> some well-known (to those who know those sorts of things) pop star to
> sing "Advance Australia Fair". These singers usually mangle the song
> so painfully, it is hard to take the thing seriously, let alone with
> respect. Nevertheless, most people stand and more than a few sing the
> words of at least the first verse.
I'd say that most Americans can get through the first verse of The Star
Spangled Banner (though not always), but anything beyond that is going
to result in humming or silent movements of the lips.
The SBB is not a good song. I much prefer "America" ("My country 'til of
thee...") or "America the Beautiful" ("Oh beautiful for spacious
skies...").
Isn't the tune for "America" taken from some song about (or for) the
British Queen? And the SSB from some English drinking song? Or are those
just myths....
Maria C.
Pat Durkin
My Country 'tis of thee", but tastes may vary. SSB is thrilling as a
military band plays it. Forget singing it. (I think we discussed this
a month or so ago--"Anacreon in Heaven".)
Hatunen
wrote:
>"Maria C." <non...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
>news:iEedk.15218$N87....@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com
>> The SBB is not a good song. I much prefer "America" ("My country 'til
>> of thee...") or "America the Beautiful" ("Oh beautiful for spacious
>> skies...").
>>
>> Isn't the tune for "America" taken from some song about (or for) the
>> British Queen? And the SSB from some English drinking song? Or are
>> those just myths....
>That's "God Bless America", Kate Smith's anthem. Well, I think I prefer
>My Country 'tis of thee", but tastes may vary. SSB is thrilling as a
>military band plays it. Forget singing it. (I think we discussed this
>a month or so ago--"Anacreon in Heaven".)
Now everything's getting mangled. "My Country Tis of Thee", which
Maria seems to confuse with "America", is the music of "God save
the Queen". "God Bless America", which was heard everywhere
during the war years does not seem to be played as much anymore.
Personally, I'll support a change to "America the Beautiful" as
the US national anthem.
Oh, and the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge is the "Car
Strangled Spanner".
Hatunen
Doesn't matter. Appearance is everything here.
Evan Kirshenbaum
> The SBB is not a good song. I much prefer "America" ("My country 'til
> of thee...")
Interestingly, the word "America" doesn't appear in any of the verses
of "My Country, 'Tis of Thee" (which I learned as "America", too).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_Country,_'Tis_of_Thee
That's the one we sang every day in elementary school. (Or at least
that's how I remember it.)
> or "America the Beautiful" ("Oh beautiful for spacious skies...").
>
> Isn't the tune for "America" taken from some song about (or for) the
> British Queen? And the SSB from some English drinking song? Or are
> those just myths....
Nope. "America" is "God Save the King/Queen", but apparently
accidently. According to the Wikipedia article, Samuel Francis Smith,
who wrote it, took the melody from Clementi's Third Symphony, which
happened to be based on "God Save the King", a fact which Smith was
apparently unaware of.
"The Star-Spangled Banner" was consciously set to "To Anacreon in
Heaven", a drinking song, by Key's brother-in-law, Joseph Nicholson.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |When correctly viewed,
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 | Everything is lewd.
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |I could tell you things
| about Peter Pan,
kirsh...@hpl.hp.com |and the Wizard of Oz--
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| Tom Lehrer
http://www.kirshenbaum.net/
Evan Kirshenbaum
> Now everything's getting mangled. "My Country Tis of Thee", which
> Maria seems to confuse with "America",
Which "America" is she confusing it with? That was what I recall
having learned the song as, as well.
Wikipedia lists entries for six other songs called "America", but the
earliest would appear to be from _West Side Story_. (The others are
by Paul Simon, Prince, Neil Diamond, Razorlight, and Tracy Chapman.)
> is the music of "God save the Queen". "God Bless America", which was
> heard everywhere during the war years does not seem to be played as
> much anymore.
You haven't been to a baseball game recently, have you? It seems to
have become a mandatory part of the seventh-inning stretch.
> Personally, I'll support a change to "America the Beautiful" as the
> US national anthem.
It's a better song, but "The Star-Spangled Banner" is better when
played instrumentally. "America the Beautiful" is also a bit more
explicitly religious than I'm comfortable with in an official anthem.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
HP Laboratories |This gubblick contains many
1501 Page Mill Road, 1U, MS 1141 |nonsklarkish English flutzpahs, but
Palo Alto, CA 94304 |the overall pluggandisp can be
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(650)857-7572 | David Moser
Ian Noble
>On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 10:12:45 +0100, Ian Noble
><fr...@dropthis.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>
>>In my case, in the days when the anthem was played at the end of every
>>cinema performance, the protocol was to stand rigidly in place until
>>the thing had played, to the intense annoyance of half the row who
>>were trying to get out.
>>
>
>In my youth, the anthem was played *before* the performance, and
>was followed immediate by the manadatory excercising of the "fire
>curtain" to prove that it was still operable. This was a large,
>presumably fire-proof cloth which would would be lowered
>from above and behind the proscenium somewhere, and then
>raised again. I assume this was mandated by some fire fire regulation,
>probably generated in response to some disastrous theater fire in the
>past.
>
>Since this was out in the colonies and we only had two cinemas in
>town, it must have been a regulation that got imported from the
>mother country. Did theygo through the same rigamarole in the U.K.?
>
A late reply here, but:
The safety curtain rules were part of the "Lord Chamberlain's
requirements" which had to be met if a license was to be granted for a
theatre (superceded in 1980 according to Wikipedia). I have memories
of seeing a curtain going up and down in front of the projection
screen at my local fleapit, the Ritz in Selby, Yorks.*, so presumably
"theatre" in that context was taken to include cinemas.
*which, with appropriate irony, subsequently burned to the ground in
the mid-70s, and was then discovered to have been uninsured.
Flanders and Swann put parts of the regulations to music (apparently
for "At the Drop of A Hat" - although to my intense annoyance, whilst
I can hear them in my head and *know* I have a copy of it somewhere,
I can't find it listed on the playlists of any of the CDs or LPs I
possess).
Cheers - Ian
Ian Noble
Got it. It's the final final track on "And Then We Wrote...",
originally a Christmas 1975 BBC broadcast, part of which I recorded
off-air, and which contains several F&S numbers not otherwise
available. It was also apparently a final, unlisted track on an early
realease of "At The Drop Of A Hat", but my copies don't have it.
Cheers - Ian
Athel Cornish-Bowden
> On Sun, 06 Jul 2008 10:12:45 +0100, Ian Noble
> <fr...@dropthis.clara.co.uk> wrote:
>
>
>>
>> In my case, in the days when the anthem was played at the end of every
>> cinema performance, the protocol was to stand rigidly in place until
>> the thing had played, to the intense annoyance of half the row who
>> were trying to get out.
>>
>
> In my youth, the anthem was played *before* the performance, and
> was followed immediate by the manadatory excercising of the "fire
> curtain" to prove that it was still operable. This was a large,
> presumably fire-proof cloth which would would be lowered
> from above and behind the proscenium somewhere, and then
> raised again. I assume this was mandated by some fire fire regulation,
> probably generated in response to some disastrous theater fire in the
> past.
>
> Since this was out in the colonies and we only had two cinemas in
> town, it must have been a regulation that got imported from the
> mother country. Did theygo through the same rigamarole in the U.K.?
Fred says no, but my recollection is that we always had the Queen in
cinemas, but not the safety curtain, but in live performances we also
saw the safety curtain.
--
athel
Mike Lyle
> Evan Kirshenbaum wrote:
[...]
>>
>> I attend a lot of sporting events, and a well performed anthem
>> (American or Canadian, although the Canadian one is less difficult
>> to do well) will almost always get appreciative applause.
>
> Reminding me of a "pet peeve" : the "artist" adds touches of melisma,
> wrenching MY anthem from its comfortable, meaningful niche and
> attempting to make it his/hers. If I am present, I stick my
> forefingers in my ears; if witnessing via TV, I change channels, and
> often find some reason to not return (sponsors please note).
Oughta be stoned without the city walls: I'm fond of that tune. But the
problem is that (v. RHD, sup.) without the miasm--sorry, melisma--they
can't sing it at all.
--
Mike.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
[ ... ]
>
> In this 1996 video a Golden Retriever sings "Star Spangled Banner,"
> gets distracted during "Oh Canada!", but does not wear a hat:
>
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFBXg3Xrz8s
The first time I was in Canada (1961) I was visiting some friends of my
aunt's on Lake Huron and there were a family from the US staying in the
neighbouring house. One evening the children of the family decided to
sing "My country 'tis of thee" in loud voices, but unfortuinately none
of them could remember the last line, so when the inevitable pause
arrived the Canadian children in the house where I was staying filled
in with "God save the Queen."
--
athel
CDB
> Pat Durkin wrote:
>> My early elementary school years occurred during WWII, and most
>> employing signs of
>> patriotism were instilled with a great romantic spirit.
> Mine began in 1949, when I was six. (No kindergarten for me.)
> Patriotism was a given in any school setting then, as I recall it.
>> http://www.usflag.org/poetry.html
>> THE FLAG GOES BY
>> Henry Holcomb Bennett
>> Hats off! Along the street there comes A blare of bugles, a ruffle
>> of drums, A flash of color beneath the sky: Hats off! The flag is
>> passing by!
When I lived in the States, in the early 50s, flag lore and
enthusiastic patriotism were real in with my age-group, and a mark of
the difference between our two societies. When friends breathlessly
told me of the ritual required if the Flag were dropped while being
folded (you had to unfold it, individually kiss each of the 48 stars,
and start over: I didn't say they had the straight goods), I didn't
comment; but I thought to myself, if it ever happened to me, I would
play the diplomatic immunity card.
>> We chanted this over and over, especially in rehearsing for Flag
>> Day. The words are still enough to bring a lump to my throat, a
>> tear to my eye. I think that we children stood breathlessly at
>> the side of the road for the parade to start, hand on heart,
>> jiggling with anticipation.
>> But nowadays, mention a parade? I am off in the opposite
>> direction!
>
> I still choke up at parades, especially when there are servicemen
> taking part. It's the uniforms that bring the emotion, I guess.
> [...]
It's the (bag)pipes, for me. There is sometimes a point in that kind
of march where the separate strands of music, which have been moving
along together in parallel, pull slightly apart*; if I'm paying
attention (as I usually am, since I like pipe music), this change can
have physiological effects: rapid heartbeat, flushed cheeks, water in
the eye.
*I'm sure there are technical terms for this.
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
They may be cheering because the game is about to start or because
they won't have to attempt that impossible song any longer, beautiful
as it is when someone has the voice for it. I can manage _God Bless
America_ or _America the Beautiful_, at best.
--
Regards,
Chuck Riggs
Near Dublin, Ireland
Chuck Riggs
<kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>"Maria C." <non...@sbcglobal.net> writes:
>
>> John Kane wrote:
>>>
>>> My mother told the story of some American friends of hers appauding
>>> at the end of the anthem. I suppose it was possible.
>>
>> In the US, the saying is that the last two words of the national
>> anthem are "play ball." There is generally a cheer at that time.
>
>I attend a lot of sporting events, and a well performed anthem
>(American or Canadian, although the Canadian one is less difficult to
>do well) will almost always get appreciative applause.
Yes, but imagine how the French must feel about theirs, by far the
most beautiful of any anthem, in my opinion, with the German's running
a close second.
Chuck Riggs
>Evan Kirshenbaum filted:
>>
>>I attend a lot of sporting events, and a well performed anthem
>>(American or Canadian, although the Canadian one is less difficult to
>>do well) will almost always get appreciative applause.
>
>The Canadian one has the advantage of having been written in the range of the
>human voice....r
Boring...
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
<snip>
>> People stand for the
>> anthem, for example, but don't necessarily remove hats and don't
>> place their hand on their heart.
>
>Yes. The hand-over-heart thing is something I don't remember doing very
>much at all.
Do women do it less often than men because they are constructed
differently? It isn't impossible for them, of course, but I would
think it could be awkward.
> However: Many times when the National Anthem was being
>played, I was singing in the choir. The singers did not put their hands
>over their hearts. (I think that's still the case.)
I think so.
>>> And whether any non-observance of the code by a civilian would
>>> generally be regarded as simple bad manners or as transgression of a
>>> particular provision of the code.
>>
>> If noticed, it would be construed as bad manners or political protest
>> or simple indifference or a sign of membership in certain minority
>> religious groups.
>
>If the people in the audience stand (if they are able) and sing -- or
>even pretend to sing -- I'd think that's sufficient. Not doing the
>hand-over-heart thing would not necessarily be seen as failing to comply
>with the rules. A man, though, would be expected to remove his hat -- I
>think. (At an outdoor event, In the hot summer sun, with worries of skin
>cancer, leaving one's hat on is not going to trouble a whole lot of
>people. Almost all men, though, do remove their hats.)
>
>Re the hand-over-heart: I connect that with the Pledge of Alliegance.
>It's necessary then, but not (in common custom) for the anthem.
>
>It's all for showing respect -- or, if one is a protestor, for making
>sure everyone knows that you want to make a dissenting statement by
>calling negative attention to yourself rather than by taking positive
>steps to correct what is wrong. That's just my thinking, of course. I do
>lack some patience when it comes to deliberate disruption of an event
>which has no connection with the subject of one's protest.
Knock-on effects from the patriotism shown by citizens of this country
and that over the past hundred years have caused the world so much
grief, I see no reason to encourage more banner waving, flag waving
and pledges to any symbol, my own countries' included.
Evan Kirshenbaum
Those are both way up there, but you don't hear them as often before
sporting events around here, and when you do, they're typically not
performed live. The anthems are typically sung by local talent, and
there aren't many local singers who are comfortable performing other
countries' anthems in front of thousands of people. For hockey games
involving both Canadian and American teams, the tradition is that the
singer has to do both, so people do, but when teams visit from other
countries, their anthem is usually played from a recording.
--
Evan Kirshenbaum +------------------------------------
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Chuck Riggs
wrote:
<snip>
>But nowadays, mention a parade? I am off in the opposite direction!
Even this one? http://www.macys.com/campaign/parade/parade.jsp
Chuck Riggs
wrote:
>Pat Durkin wrote:
It's women in Nazi uniforms who get me hot.
Mike Lyle
> On Wed, 09 Jul 2008 17:13:42 -0700, Evan Kirshenbaum
> <kirsh...@hpl.hp.com> wrote:
>> I attend a lot of sporting events, and a well performed anthem
>> (American or Canadian, although the Canadian one is less difficult to
>> do well) will almost always get appreciative applause.
>
> Yes, but imagine how the French must feel about theirs, by far the
> most beautiful of any anthem,
Not sure I'd apply "beautiful"; "stirring", certainly. But then I know
the words, which are a disgrace: I mean, "watering our furrows with
their impure blood", FChS!
> in my opinion, with the German's running
> a close second.
Good old Haydn. But did he actually compose the tune, or just the
hymn-book harmony?
Scotland the Brave is good, but they've lumbered their rugby fixtures
with that Godawful /Flower of Scotland/. /Land of my Fathers/ hits the
spot every time, while dreary old GSTQ only works if one is drunk
(which, of course, they generally are).
"Australians all, let us read Joyce!
For we are lit'raree."
--
Mike.
James Silverton
You know, according to the Oxford Companion to Music, both Haydn and
Beethoven liked the tune of "God Save the Queen". Who are we to dispute
them? Lot's of other people appreciated the melody too; "My Country 'Tis
of Thee" might even have become the US anthem. I believe Haydn used an
old Croation folk tune as a basis for the Austrian anthem but he was
certainly made good use of it.
As far as a Scottish anthem is concerned, I like "Scots Wha Hae" tho'
"Scotland the Brave" is certainly inspiring. I won't comment on the
choice of rugby hearties.
--
James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland
Email, with obvious alterations: not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not
R H Draney
Time, I suppose, to put in a good word for the old Soviet hymn...look past the
ideology long enough to recognize the music as exactly what an anthem should be:
equal parts reverence and majesty....r
James Silverton
> Mike Lyle filted:
> Time, I suppose, to put in a good word for the old Soviet
> hymn...look past the ideology long enough to recognize the
> music as exactly what an anthem should be: equal parts reverence
> and majesty....r
Which one are you referring to? I still like the Internationale that
they used for many years. Tho' I can see why Stalin might not have liked
words like "There are no supreme saviours,Neither God, nor Caesar nor
tribune" or "The state strangles and the law cheats" It's got the right
stuff for an old socialist!
Pat Durkin
news:vk8c7494ral233tns...@4ax.com
> On Wed, 9 Jul 2008 16:20:41 -0500, "Pat Durkin" <dur...@sbc.com>
> wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
>> But nowadays, mention a parade? I am off in the opposite direction!
>
> Even this one? http://www.macys.com/campaign/parade/parade.jsp
Most especially, Chuck. I have a tremendous phobia about being touched,
so rubbing elbows with the hoi polloi is enough to send me into a fugue
state. Panic, big time!